I think astrology gives believers a sense of security in a chaotic and unpredictable world. Just like most religions. Anything that makes you feel in control.
I don't like it. It's much more fun to embrace the chaos and react when necessary.
“Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”
—Karl Marx, *A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of the Right*
This quote is not actually meant entirely as a criticism of religion, and has kind of a double meaning that has become less obvious over time as the quote has been shortened and simplified. While “opium of the people” certainly sounds bad to us, opium in Marx’s time did not have nearly the negative connotation it does now in a post opiate epidemic world.
While Marx is criticizing religious viewpoints by saying they are something created by humans and therefore not literally true, he is also stating that religion is a symbolic expression of the very real suffering and alienation experienced by the proletariat. Religion can create its own kind of false consciousness, but also acts as a coping mechanism that alleviates the people’s pain.
Sorry if you were just joking and didn’t want a whole explanation, but there ya go
Tbf you could drag the analogy out further, just like opium the negatives of religion weren't understood back then.
Not sure if agree with that but it's an interesting similarity lol
When grown women friends of mine talk about astrology, they seem to be doing it semi-ironically. But it’s still weird to see grown intelligent women basically LARPing as silly people. It would be as if I starting talking about ‘alphas’ and ‘sigmas’
In fairness, 4chan has had massive cultural influence on the meme and humor sphere of the internet for as long as both have existed. It’s just a fact of the internet. It’s not something unique to 196.
i don’t think most people take astrology as seriously as some people (read: men) act like they do. like it’s a fun hobby for me but i don’t take it as gospel
It's still rude when people tell you you are one way or another because of it. No issue with the people who enjoy it but many do push it on others and it's kind of violating
I guess what I don’t get is, if it’s a hobby, where’s the source of enjoyment? Either you belief in astrology or you don’t; there’s no ‘middle ground’ where it’s partially true. If you believe in it, fine. But if you don’t believe in it, what’s fun about pretending to do so? Unless it’s in a parodic fashion, like if I was to joke with my male friend about ‘alpha behaviour’, it would be to make fun of men who sincerely believe that.
It can be fun to imagine that something nice is going to happen to you or that today is the day you fall in love because it was in the newspaper. Puts a pep in your step without the total belief that those things will happen.
Plus there's a small community aspect. I dont know many people who truly believe in them yet i dont know many people who dont know their star sign if asked. Then its like OMG we're best friends but youre a Leo? It was never meant to be how dramatic
I don’t understand how your comment is a response to my original comment
OP posted about how annoying he finds the idea of astrology, and I responded by commiserating how strange I find it when my friends play into it
And then the other poster brought up people talking about astrology online, which has nothing to do with what I originally said
Astrology is stupid but there actually IS a way to measure a person's worth using stars: at the end of a Mario Party session, 4 people are objectively ranked as humans based on their amount of stars and bonus stars collected.
Nah being better at the fire jump rope is literally all that matters. If you have 0 stars at the end but did best at jump rope, you’re objectively still a better human.
mfw there are literally hiring managers choosing whether or not to hire someone based on star racism but it's a totally harmless and cute and quirky and anti-establishment form of superstition: the first of its kind.
How would a hiring manager learn your birthday? I googled it and can’t find any mention of any real company in the United States doing this, so it seems like it’s a pretty far-fetched claim.
However, it’s seems like it might be an issue in other countries.
Star-astrology is not actually a serious problem in the US imo. The real problem is corporate astrology like Myers-Briggs and other pop-psych personality test garbage that employers in the US *do* actually very stupidly use.
I guess the argument is that it goes against Christianity?
Which is funny because here, superstitions like that seem to mostly be held by Christians but maybe Protestants and Catholics are more against it.
I'm absolutely going to be an asshole about astrology to people and I do not care if "don't worry it's just for fun". You actually should not believe completely random bullshit which is designed to play on every bias known to humanity. I don't see how that's good for anyone. At least with religion it's drilled so deeply into someone that it's genuinely really hard to counteract it, why the fuck would you do that to yourself? And I'm sure you don't *really* believe it, an excuse which has never ended up with someone incorporating aspects of that belief into their belief system, particularly a really terrible belief. Nah fuck that, when someone brings it up like that I'm always giving them shit for it and I always mean it and you can't guilt-trip me on it. Being willingly wrong about shit is a huge red flag imo. Be right; if wrong, refer to rule 1.
Many people into it don't believe in it at all, it's just a hobby to share. It's like getting really into the lore of fictional worlds such as LOTR or Dune, the people reading into it don't believe those stories are real but they're still fun to read and talk about
Those stories are deliberate fiction. Pieces of media. Astrology is a weird belief system that people genuinely think affects real life things. The “many people who don’t really believe in it and use it as a hobby to share” are fucking dumbasses who are actively damaging the critical thinking skills of a generation. It’s like saying people can be heavily interested in scientology, discuss and compare their Engram levels with their friends, read all of the books, and then say “I’m not a scientologist it’s just a fun hobby”
They're really not all that different, most people who engage with it just view it as a hobby. This is really similar to the boomer argument of television/ video games/ whatever hot topic destroying the minds of the kids. The solution is to teach critical thinking and to make sure it's engaged with while acknowledging its status as fiction. If you just shout at the symptom, it will be replaced with some other belief, but if you teach people how to separate fact from fiction they can engage with and discuss any hobby they like without fear of taking it too seriously.
It's like professional wrestling. Everybody knows it's scripted, but it still presents itself as a competitive sport in which skill determines the outcome, not a script, but people understand this and can still enjoy it as entertainment.
I’m so confused what you’re trying to argue. Correct me if i’m wrong but you’re saying that if we teach people to think for themselves, then it’s okay for them to engage with astrology. You cannot compare something like astrology with video games. It’s like comparing catholicism to star wars. One is faith in something with no scientific backing, and the other is deliberate fantasy entertainment. Having faith or belief in something with no empirical evidence is literally the antithesis of critical thinking. In no way can astrology be a hobby, hobbies are grounded in observable and demonstrable reality, they’re pursued for pleasure and involve skill or knowledge development, astrology relies on belief in the influence of celestial bodies without any evidence to support its claims.
>you’re saying that if we teach people to think for themselves, then it’s okay for them to engage with astrology
Correct
I think the bit you're not picking up from me is the point that many people who enjoy astrology *don't* believe in it, in your example it's Star Wars and not a religion. Some people do believe in it, but I strongly think that if taught critical thinking they can become just like people who enjoy works of fiction, I don't think there's anything especially insidious or dangerous about astrology, just that it's been allowed to be taken too seriously in the past.
>In no way can astrology be a hobby, hobbies are grounded in observable and demonstrable reality
That's just inherently untrue, just look at people who play tabletop RPGs, or battle games like Warhammer, or people who LARP. Those hobbies are based on the idea of pretending that something that's fantastical is real, and if there were some people who took it too literally it wouldn't be fair to bash the hobby instead of correcting the people who aren't engaging with it in a healthy way.
I'm also not sure what definition of hobby would exclude astrology specifically, in my mind a hobby is just something you enjoy doing or learning about for recreational purposes.
I’m not exactly sure how somebody can hold astrology as a hobby while completely distancing themselves from its disingenuous roots. Astrology is inherently grounded in pseudoscience, and while you may call it a bit of fun to… what.. group people under stars (great hobby) it absolutely perpetuates misinformation and reinforces confirmation bias… which in turn hinders critical thinking skills.
Now you propose that we could live in a world where we teach everyone critical thinking skills, and that it would then be great to just hold astrology as a hobby. But unfortunately that’s just not a world we live in.
If we follow the logic that teaching critical think in skills makes holding any pseudoscientific belief as a hobby acceptable, then that extends to Scientology. I can’t wait to discuss our intergalactic travels and post mortem planetary destinations over tea and cake. But no, this borders on absurd.
Engaging in astrology as a hobby implies some level of interest or value in the practise. Even without belief in it, they are still investing time and attention into somthing that contradicts critacal thinking.
Engaging with it even without belief creates a normalisation of the subject matter. Teaching critical thinking and then encouraging engagement with the antithesis of it is contradictory and destructive.
Unlike RPG’s, which remain in the realm of entertainment and complete fiction, astrology presents itself as a system that claims real world influence. Anyone engaging with it leads to its credibility. This can have major consequences in health, finance, relationships.
If astrology came about saying it was a hobby, saying “lads it’s jsut some fun, don’t believe what I say” then sure. Go for it. But astrology has been here, and is here now, as a pseudoscientific belief system that actively discourages critical thinking. Any wishful thinking that suddenly everyone can be taught critical thinking skills and no one will base their life decisions on it… is a little silly
Astrology is an extremely deterministic practice and that alone is enough for me to consider it worthless as a method of divination.
"Nothing that you do matters because it was all predetermined based on the star you were born under" entirely removing the concept of free will from a person is just gross. It's as useless as the MBTI.
Determinism in of itself isn't bad imo. It's when people believe they can accurately predict things in this chaotic fucking world that it gets bad. That and also when people become all nihilistic about it.
Based. I believe in indeterminism too, and I can’t really fathom how anyone would maneuver a world with fate or destiny. If everything’s doomed to happen, why don’t you just rot? No, the fact we can create all these great works of human effort, and the fact we have to struggle to get them done proves we aren’t just slaves to destiny. A world with a level of indeterminate chaos lying underneath it is a fair one, a universe where every atrocity, every disaster, and every twist of fate was fore written? I would rather die than have to suffer myself to live in it.
If it's all predetermined, what does it matter what I believe? That, too, would be predetermined. I have no control over if I'll become dejected and depressed over it or if I'll still act like it matters.
After all, that's what predetermined means.
I have no interest in a philosophy as dull as that. As cynical as I am, I will always believe that every individual possess the power to blaze their own trail, that we are more than the sum of the actions and events that took place before.
Honestly this might be harsh but it always has a bit of a eugenics undertone to me. Certain people are born to act in certain ways and if you pick your romantic partner well you can make a super relationship that is backed up by ~~science~~ the stars
I treat horrorscope people the same as tarot card people. If you think it’s a silly game that is fun and maybe slightly insightful, no harm no foul. If you are making serious financial and relational decisions based on how silly drawings come out of a stack of paper, I think you’re slightly nutty. Keep it fun, silly, and not so serious and I am on board.
I would like to agree with the “it’s just cute and silly” people, because of course sometimes it can be, but the reality is that I have personally known people who use astrology as a justification for toxic behavior, to reinforce irrational depressive thoughts, and someone who’s been stuck in a codependent toxic family situation for years thanks to astrology and associated new age/wicca type beliefs. Like any religious or superstitious belief system, it can be only be at best an inspiring cultural tradition and at worst an untreatable mental illness that leads to abuse, irrational emotions, thoughts, and behaviors, and bigotry. The idea also that astrology (again, like any religion) is separate from its cultural context is an illusion; the reality is that astrology largely reinforces our society’s latent regressive norms around gender roles, sex/gender essentialism, and psychology. Of course, I’ve also known people who are intelligent and progressive, and whose engagement with astrology and other folk beliefs reinforces their progressive views. But this is exactly what I’m saying; it’s a projection, manifestation, and validation of our subconscious beliefs. IMO astrology’s strong association with relationships and personality makes it particular likely to lead to unhealthy and toxic behavior. Frankly, if it weren’t so woven into our culture, I feel like we would all agree superstition is not adult behavior.
To me it's more worthwhile to attack the roots of these problems rather than the hobby that people use to justify them. If someone's being an asshole or is stuck in a terrible relationship, attacking their hobby isn't going to fundamentally change that, at best they'll just find another excuse for their behaviour. Fix the underlying patterns of toxic behaviour as opposed to telling people that they're wrong for engaging in a fun hobby, you know?
I mean, you say hobby, but it’s not a hobby for a lot of people, it’s a dogma that drives their decision making, and the line between hobby and dogma is completely blurry. When someone is literally convinced they have a dark spirit following them that manifests all the bad luck they’d had, or that seeing a certain person will make something bad happen, good luck. If you say “it’s okay, that person can’t hurt you anymore, you don’t have to worry”, like, they literally believe they can though. And you can only do so much. That’s why I compare it to an untreatable mental illness- you can’t force someone to go to therapy and unlearn this stuff. It’s self-reinforcing. But people can fall into astrology and other folk beliefs and begin this cycle very easily because these beliefs are normalized.
I think where we are talking past each other is I'm talking about the majority of people who aren't mentally ill and have some critical thinking skills and are able to engage with it as just something fun to enjoy. What you say about the people who are badly affected by it isn't untrue, but it comes off as though you're blaming the hobby itself, but if we follow that logic to its conclusion we will have to start banning hobbies to protect people, which will inevitably just hurt everyone, instead of treating the root cause of the issues which will a) actually make people better, and b) allow people to just enjoy unusual hobbies without being demonised for something that isn't their fault.
Yeah I get what you’re saying, I think we’re saying two different things, you that the cultural, mythological, or “game” (or “lore”) aspect of it doesn’t have to erased, me that the practice of it in a cultural context in which it’s acceptable to believe it is a slippery slope. Ultimately I’m not really advocating a “solution” either way, because as you say, it would mean a sweeping and problematic restriction of rights. I just wish people would stop practicing astrology and other folk beliefs as anything beyond an acknowledged fantasy hobby.
>I just wish people would stop practicing astrology and other folk beliefs as anything beyond an acknowledged fantasy hobby.
You know what, same here, I think we're on the same page. I do wish that people who discuss astrology etc online would lean more into it being a fantasy subject or "game", to borrow your phrasing, but that might actually be easier than we think if enough people in those circles discuss it the right way.
Imagine claiming to be an atheist and then believing that the orientation of the sun and moon and stars are what determines your life’s outcome. Determinism for people who don’t want to deal with the consequences of it
You want some ammo?
1. Astrology used to have 13 months for the 13 lunar months therefore astrology based on the 12 month Gregorian Christian calendar is inherently wrong. For anyone curious the missing 13th sign is 'Ophiuchus'
2. Stars move in relation to our perception of them over time because our star system is moving through space as well as just rotating. This means that we currently tie the months to entirely the wrong signs. This is true regardless of the 12 or 13 months versions.
So yeah, none of us are the sign we think for two unrelated big reasons.
Serpent Bearer, not serpent itself.
"Ophiuchus is often associated with healing images. The Romans associated the constellation with Asclepius, who learned the secret to immortality by watching one serpent treat another serpent with healing herbs. Zeus killed Asclepius with a lightning bolt because he didn't want everyone to be immortal, but later honored his good deeds by giving him a spot in the heavens.
The Babylonians associated the constellation with Nirah, a god who was sometimes depicted with a human upper body and legs that were serpents."
Nothing you said about sacrifice is accurate, but it does sound like church propaganda.
Yeah, you are surely right. But Christians do not associate serpent with anything good (it was Christians who bullied / killed serpent associated people)
However, I did not checked any source and might be spreading misinformation online
I can think of one example where christians associate serpents and good and it's directly related to the same ancient meaning as Ophiuchus. It's the [Caduceus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus)
The best part about astrology people is that I can assign them traits of Homestuck characters and they'll wholeheartedly believe it.
Have fun kinning vriska, idiot.
I think *astronomers* hate astrology more than anyone. Must watch:
[https://youtube.com/shorts/70t-GCnKAsk?si=UhR088lXeJCPDfIH](https://youtube.com/shorts/70t-GCnKAsk?si=UhR088lXeJCPDfIH)
On the way home from college last year, this girl sat with me and my friends bc they all knew each other from previous schools. I’d never met this person and I’d barely said a word in the conversation, but when astrology came up, she said something along the lines of ‘Pisces men are awful and should kill themselves’.
Guess what I happen to be.
Tbh I find historical astrology genuinely fascinating and using the stars to divine the future is honestly sick as hell. I just hate that astrology is just... Putting people in boxes, now
The funniest shit I can remember in the past year was when I lied to a lady talking about astrology, where I had her guess my sign and she got it wrong 8 times, I told her she got it on the 9th, and she believed me and said “well yeah that makes sense” and then told her I was lying and told her I was a different one, which she said “oh, that’s such a Scorpio thing to do” or whatever and I finally told her my real sign, and she was adamant that after getting it wrong 10 times out of 12, that she was stil right and Star signs predict shit
I remember there was a story of a lady who killed her kids and her self, this year when the solar eclipse happened because she thought the solar eclipse is gonna do something
I think there's a fine line between making huge decisions based on astrological beliefs and putting personality traits on someone by their star sign and having an interest in astrology as a whole.
It's like looking at someone who just orays every morning and the most hardcore bible-thumping bigot and saying they're the same. There's always gonna be shitty people using ways to try and justify their shitty behavior. Don't demonize the justification when there's a lot of people who aren't using it that way.
There is some merit to the cultural history of astrology, which is cool and fun to learn about, and it's a handy conversation tool with new coworkers/bar guests. If they bring it up I know exactly how to talk to and relate to them because I *do* entertain conversations about astrology even though it's not something I live and die by.
Plus, my astrology friends always remember my bday, which is nice. For many it's just a way to pay attention to others rather than putting em in a lil box. It goes beyond "you are a cancer so this is your personality" there's actually a lot more nuance than that, and more about navigating circumstances than it is about categorizing ppl.
It's pretty harmless, and most people really aren't that annoying/mean about it if you actually talk to them. Just the people who are annoying or mean point blank so you can hardly fault astrology. Shitty people will be shitty whether the stars told them to or not.
I know this is reddit, but astrology is often just a way people anslyse their lives. A lot of people know it means nothing but do it because it's fun, or forces them to think about where their life is going.
It's like trying to read the 5 stages of grief into a story, sometimes that's helpful when trying to understand it, and other times it's not, but it's not futile or forceful.
Astrology people need to realize that they are essentially religious. Christians coming and telling you that you are going to hell because you disobeyed their religion even though you aren't Christian is incredibly rude.
So is making assumptions and assigning characteristics to someone based on your star belief system. You can believe it and do it amongst yourselves but you must understand that it is a belief and it is faith and it is subjective in practice.
My friends and I don't believe in astrology, but we do know the details and connections, the rules.
It's fun. It's fun to trash talk using it. And it filters out people around you who don't vibe with it. And you don't have to vibe with it. Just don't be a dick about it, and we won't be a dick about it to you.
I've long since stopped counting the number of times someone has said, "You know it's not real, right?" In a thinly veiled condescending tone. My usual response is, "No shit Sherlock, you figure that out just now?"
Now, though, I like to act surprised and say stuff like, "Oh wow, really? Can you explain why? Oh, that's so smart of you! Thank you for telling me that. you're so smart!" Really ramp up the sarcasm towards the end.
Dunking on people for like astrology because "it's not real" is like Dunking on someone who knows and loves warhammer 40k because "it's not real."
The only time I care about zodiacs is when I remember I'm born on the year of the Dragon.
Aside from that I just try to be respectful but have clear boundaries with my friends who do believe
Can't even get it lined up with the actual constellations, smh. It's seasonal, apparently, so those stars don't even matter.
And why do we care about constellations that aren't visible on your birthday at practical times, smh.
I'm going to start telling people I'm a Gemini or a Taurus or a Sagittarius because those are cool constellations. If I wore jewelry, I'd buy necklaces with those constellations and confuse people.
I am an astrology defended. In a take sthe spirituality out of it? None of it is real in the way we think of real. But it’s a tool to me to interpret my experience though. Used to be a Christian, read the bible a lot, and it’s about as real. But it gave me language and a framework to understand the world
Some people take it way way too far. But once I read some horoscopes and learned about my sign, I really started to work on myself as a person. And someone with their head on straight will always tell you about a reading or a horoscope that you take what resonates with you and you leave what doesn’t. If you read it in a horoscope it’s not a prediction. It’s more a framework to fit people in, not unsimilar to personality tests
astrology isnt just the zodiac signs, ~~although a lot of this thread seems to be specifically bashing on that aspect of it~~.. and a lot of this thread seems to conflate the two. it feels like a bunch of people talking shit about something they dont really know anything about. also why is this flaired seizure warning? and why is this posted in this sub?? this is supposed to be a shitposting subreddit right?? like not trying to minimod but this post confuses me for an array of reasons. i get ur logic but this is a vent that i wasnt exactly prepared to see when i browsed this sub
edited shortly after sending for clarification
edited again after the first comment because i realised i conveyed my feelings badly
Going beyond sun signs and being more specific with your spacism doesn't make it better or more accurate.
It's not like your Zodiac sign doesn't matter, but your moon sign? No that's totally a legitimate way of pre-judging people. None of it has any basis in reality or is based on any amount of science.
look past the astrological sign BS. astrology isn't just pre-judging people, there's horoscopes for one popular example of something that doesnt hurt anyone. it doesnt need to be based on science, it's fun! the parts that arent pre-judging people, at least. and btw: i don't see anybody IRL doing that. idk what prompted this persons post, but the commenters are acting like this is some huge phenomenon. i dont use tiktok, maybe thats why im not seeing it?? like sure theres one nutjob every 5 years in my life who does that, but its not a huge phenomenon that i see warranting hate towards anyone ever who enjoys the fun of astrology.
dont waste energy worrying about other peoples interests. Everyone is into weird shit and if someone thinks personalities are designed by the stars and they have fun with that then who am i to care. Just let people be people, we've believed in irrational things since the beginning of the human race because why the hell not. its fun sometimes.
But not when it's actually harmful to people. You might think it's just harmless and quirky, but some people make important decisions based on astrology, and it leads to some really bad results
I have a friend who believes she can't get out of a depressed period she's in becaus eof some planet rising in some sign.
She's not even trying to get better because the stars have decided for her that she can't right now.
[Reagan based some of his decisions on astrology, so the harm of astrology cannot be nonzero](https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/04/us/white-house-confirms-reagans-follow-astrology-up-to-a-point.html)
Astrology often seems like just another way to put people into narrow boxes that predefine your social category. It’s like assigned gender at birth 2.
Spacism
I am stealing this word thank you
I think astrology gives believers a sense of security in a chaotic and unpredictable world. Just like most religions. Anything that makes you feel in control. I don't like it. It's much more fun to embrace the chaos and react when necessary.
Somethin something opium of the people something something
“Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” —Karl Marx, *A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of the Right* This quote is not actually meant entirely as a criticism of religion, and has kind of a double meaning that has become less obvious over time as the quote has been shortened and simplified. While “opium of the people” certainly sounds bad to us, opium in Marx’s time did not have nearly the negative connotation it does now in a post opiate epidemic world. While Marx is criticizing religious viewpoints by saying they are something created by humans and therefore not literally true, he is also stating that religion is a symbolic expression of the very real suffering and alienation experienced by the proletariat. Religion can create its own kind of false consciousness, but also acts as a coping mechanism that alleviates the people’s pain. Sorry if you were just joking and didn’t want a whole explanation, but there ya go
Tbf you could drag the analogy out further, just like opium the negatives of religion weren't understood back then. Not sure if agree with that but it's an interesting similarity lol
I tweeted something like this once and got torn apart and ripped into pieces.
Astrology is just racism for zoomers
Even the zoomers are doing astrology? I know lots of millennials into it. We need to grow out of it. It's so dumb
azab
[astrology but epic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste)
[astrology as a caste system ](https://mspaintadventures.fandom.com/wiki/Hemospectrum) (epic²)
Such a fucking Capricorn post
Such a Scorpio response
Such an asparagus comment
When grown women friends of mine talk about astrology, they seem to be doing it semi-ironically. But it’s still weird to see grown intelligent women basically LARPing as silly people. It would be as if I starting talking about ‘alphas’ and ‘sigmas’
Yeah ikr that could never happen! That's almost like r/196 using 4chan-speech ironically, can you imagine?
In fairness, 4chan has had massive cultural influence on the meme and humor sphere of the internet for as long as both have existed. It’s just a fact of the internet. It’s not something unique to 196.
I was talking about women in their 30s who only know of Reddit and 4Chan from the horror stories I tell them, so this isn’t an internet issue
Based comment
4chanpilled speechmaxxing
i don’t think most people take astrology as seriously as some people (read: men) act like they do. like it’s a fun hobby for me but i don’t take it as gospel
It's still rude when people tell you you are one way or another because of it. No issue with the people who enjoy it but many do push it on others and it's kind of violating
I guess what I don’t get is, if it’s a hobby, where’s the source of enjoyment? Either you belief in astrology or you don’t; there’s no ‘middle ground’ where it’s partially true. If you believe in it, fine. But if you don’t believe in it, what’s fun about pretending to do so? Unless it’s in a parodic fashion, like if I was to joke with my male friend about ‘alpha behaviour’, it would be to make fun of men who sincerely believe that.
It can be fun to imagine that something nice is going to happen to you or that today is the day you fall in love because it was in the newspaper. Puts a pep in your step without the total belief that those things will happen. Plus there's a small community aspect. I dont know many people who truly believe in them yet i dont know many people who dont know their star sign if asked. Then its like OMG we're best friends but youre a Leo? It was never meant to be how dramatic
Fair enough I guess, for people who need that
Everyone needs a lil joy and a social circle
dude i just like looking at pretty cards it really isn’t that deep
The real fun part is having the full stellar map of when you were born
and do you seriously think people don’t larp about using those terms on the internet
I don’t understand how your comment is a response to my original comment OP posted about how annoying he finds the idea of astrology, and I responded by commiserating how strange I find it when my friends play into it And then the other poster brought up people talking about astrology online, which has nothing to do with what I originally said
Astrology is stupid but there actually IS a way to measure a person's worth using stars: at the end of a Mario Party session, 4 people are objectively ranked as humans based on their amount of stars and bonus stars collected.
The best human has the least.
Nah being better at the fire jump rope is literally all that matters. If you have 0 stars at the end but did best at jump rope, you’re objectively still a better human.
That fucking jump rope haunts my dreams
mfw there are literally hiring managers choosing whether or not to hire someone based on star racism but it's a totally harmless and cute and quirky and anti-establishment form of superstition: the first of its kind.
How would a hiring manager learn your birthday? I googled it and can’t find any mention of any real company in the United States doing this, so it seems like it’s a pretty far-fetched claim. However, it’s seems like it might be an issue in other countries. Star-astrology is not actually a serious problem in the US imo. The real problem is corporate astrology like Myers-Briggs and other pop-psych personality test garbage that employers in the US *do* actually very stupidly use.
It’s pretty common to have your birthday available when applying for jobs
how is it anti-establishment
The same way it’s cute and harmless, lol. It isn’t.
I guess the argument is that it goes against Christianity? Which is funny because here, superstitions like that seem to mostly be held by Christians but maybe Protestants and Catholics are more against it.
It's just a prettier type of essentialism, it's lame and kinda revealing about a person
I'm absolutely going to be an asshole about astrology to people and I do not care if "don't worry it's just for fun". You actually should not believe completely random bullshit which is designed to play on every bias known to humanity. I don't see how that's good for anyone. At least with religion it's drilled so deeply into someone that it's genuinely really hard to counteract it, why the fuck would you do that to yourself? And I'm sure you don't *really* believe it, an excuse which has never ended up with someone incorporating aspects of that belief into their belief system, particularly a really terrible belief. Nah fuck that, when someone brings it up like that I'm always giving them shit for it and I always mean it and you can't guilt-trip me on it. Being willingly wrong about shit is a huge red flag imo. Be right; if wrong, refer to rule 1.
Based
Many people into it don't believe in it at all, it's just a hobby to share. It's like getting really into the lore of fictional worlds such as LOTR or Dune, the people reading into it don't believe those stories are real but they're still fun to read and talk about
Those stories are deliberate fiction. Pieces of media. Astrology is a weird belief system that people genuinely think affects real life things. The “many people who don’t really believe in it and use it as a hobby to share” are fucking dumbasses who are actively damaging the critical thinking skills of a generation. It’s like saying people can be heavily interested in scientology, discuss and compare their Engram levels with their friends, read all of the books, and then say “I’m not a scientologist it’s just a fun hobby”
They're really not all that different, most people who engage with it just view it as a hobby. This is really similar to the boomer argument of television/ video games/ whatever hot topic destroying the minds of the kids. The solution is to teach critical thinking and to make sure it's engaged with while acknowledging its status as fiction. If you just shout at the symptom, it will be replaced with some other belief, but if you teach people how to separate fact from fiction they can engage with and discuss any hobby they like without fear of taking it too seriously. It's like professional wrestling. Everybody knows it's scripted, but it still presents itself as a competitive sport in which skill determines the outcome, not a script, but people understand this and can still enjoy it as entertainment.
I’m so confused what you’re trying to argue. Correct me if i’m wrong but you’re saying that if we teach people to think for themselves, then it’s okay for them to engage with astrology. You cannot compare something like astrology with video games. It’s like comparing catholicism to star wars. One is faith in something with no scientific backing, and the other is deliberate fantasy entertainment. Having faith or belief in something with no empirical evidence is literally the antithesis of critical thinking. In no way can astrology be a hobby, hobbies are grounded in observable and demonstrable reality, they’re pursued for pleasure and involve skill or knowledge development, astrology relies on belief in the influence of celestial bodies without any evidence to support its claims.
>you’re saying that if we teach people to think for themselves, then it’s okay for them to engage with astrology Correct I think the bit you're not picking up from me is the point that many people who enjoy astrology *don't* believe in it, in your example it's Star Wars and not a religion. Some people do believe in it, but I strongly think that if taught critical thinking they can become just like people who enjoy works of fiction, I don't think there's anything especially insidious or dangerous about astrology, just that it's been allowed to be taken too seriously in the past. >In no way can astrology be a hobby, hobbies are grounded in observable and demonstrable reality That's just inherently untrue, just look at people who play tabletop RPGs, or battle games like Warhammer, or people who LARP. Those hobbies are based on the idea of pretending that something that's fantastical is real, and if there were some people who took it too literally it wouldn't be fair to bash the hobby instead of correcting the people who aren't engaging with it in a healthy way. I'm also not sure what definition of hobby would exclude astrology specifically, in my mind a hobby is just something you enjoy doing or learning about for recreational purposes.
I’m not exactly sure how somebody can hold astrology as a hobby while completely distancing themselves from its disingenuous roots. Astrology is inherently grounded in pseudoscience, and while you may call it a bit of fun to… what.. group people under stars (great hobby) it absolutely perpetuates misinformation and reinforces confirmation bias… which in turn hinders critical thinking skills. Now you propose that we could live in a world where we teach everyone critical thinking skills, and that it would then be great to just hold astrology as a hobby. But unfortunately that’s just not a world we live in. If we follow the logic that teaching critical think in skills makes holding any pseudoscientific belief as a hobby acceptable, then that extends to Scientology. I can’t wait to discuss our intergalactic travels and post mortem planetary destinations over tea and cake. But no, this borders on absurd. Engaging in astrology as a hobby implies some level of interest or value in the practise. Even without belief in it, they are still investing time and attention into somthing that contradicts critacal thinking. Engaging with it even without belief creates a normalisation of the subject matter. Teaching critical thinking and then encouraging engagement with the antithesis of it is contradictory and destructive. Unlike RPG’s, which remain in the realm of entertainment and complete fiction, astrology presents itself as a system that claims real world influence. Anyone engaging with it leads to its credibility. This can have major consequences in health, finance, relationships. If astrology came about saying it was a hobby, saying “lads it’s jsut some fun, don’t believe what I say” then sure. Go for it. But astrology has been here, and is here now, as a pseudoscientific belief system that actively discourages critical thinking. Any wishful thinking that suddenly everyone can be taught critical thinking skills and no one will base their life decisions on it… is a little silly
K
Astrology is an extremely deterministic practice and that alone is enough for me to consider it worthless as a method of divination. "Nothing that you do matters because it was all predetermined based on the star you were born under" entirely removing the concept of free will from a person is just gross. It's as useless as the MBTI.
Determinism in of itself isn't bad imo. It's when people believe they can accurately predict things in this chaotic fucking world that it gets bad. That and also when people become all nihilistic about it.
Based. I believe in indeterminism too, and I can’t really fathom how anyone would maneuver a world with fate or destiny. If everything’s doomed to happen, why don’t you just rot? No, the fact we can create all these great works of human effort, and the fact we have to struggle to get them done proves we aren’t just slaves to destiny. A world with a level of indeterminate chaos lying underneath it is a fair one, a universe where every atrocity, every disaster, and every twist of fate was fore written? I would rather die than have to suffer myself to live in it.
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If it's all predetermined, what does it matter what I believe? That, too, would be predetermined. I have no control over if I'll become dejected and depressed over it or if I'll still act like it matters. After all, that's what predetermined means. I have no interest in a philosophy as dull as that. As cynical as I am, I will always believe that every individual possess the power to blaze their own trail, that we are more than the sum of the actions and events that took place before.
Honestly this might be harsh but it always has a bit of a eugenics undertone to me. Certain people are born to act in certain ways and if you pick your romantic partner well you can make a super relationship that is backed up by ~~science~~ the stars
Damn sounds like something a Leo would say
I treat horrorscope people the same as tarot card people. If you think it’s a silly game that is fun and maybe slightly insightful, no harm no foul. If you are making serious financial and relational decisions based on how silly drawings come out of a stack of paper, I think you’re slightly nutty. Keep it fun, silly, and not so serious and I am on board.
I would like to agree with the “it’s just cute and silly” people, because of course sometimes it can be, but the reality is that I have personally known people who use astrology as a justification for toxic behavior, to reinforce irrational depressive thoughts, and someone who’s been stuck in a codependent toxic family situation for years thanks to astrology and associated new age/wicca type beliefs. Like any religious or superstitious belief system, it can be only be at best an inspiring cultural tradition and at worst an untreatable mental illness that leads to abuse, irrational emotions, thoughts, and behaviors, and bigotry. The idea also that astrology (again, like any religion) is separate from its cultural context is an illusion; the reality is that astrology largely reinforces our society’s latent regressive norms around gender roles, sex/gender essentialism, and psychology. Of course, I’ve also known people who are intelligent and progressive, and whose engagement with astrology and other folk beliefs reinforces their progressive views. But this is exactly what I’m saying; it’s a projection, manifestation, and validation of our subconscious beliefs. IMO astrology’s strong association with relationships and personality makes it particular likely to lead to unhealthy and toxic behavior. Frankly, if it weren’t so woven into our culture, I feel like we would all agree superstition is not adult behavior.
To me it's more worthwhile to attack the roots of these problems rather than the hobby that people use to justify them. If someone's being an asshole or is stuck in a terrible relationship, attacking their hobby isn't going to fundamentally change that, at best they'll just find another excuse for their behaviour. Fix the underlying patterns of toxic behaviour as opposed to telling people that they're wrong for engaging in a fun hobby, you know?
I mean, you say hobby, but it’s not a hobby for a lot of people, it’s a dogma that drives their decision making, and the line between hobby and dogma is completely blurry. When someone is literally convinced they have a dark spirit following them that manifests all the bad luck they’d had, or that seeing a certain person will make something bad happen, good luck. If you say “it’s okay, that person can’t hurt you anymore, you don’t have to worry”, like, they literally believe they can though. And you can only do so much. That’s why I compare it to an untreatable mental illness- you can’t force someone to go to therapy and unlearn this stuff. It’s self-reinforcing. But people can fall into astrology and other folk beliefs and begin this cycle very easily because these beliefs are normalized.
I think where we are talking past each other is I'm talking about the majority of people who aren't mentally ill and have some critical thinking skills and are able to engage with it as just something fun to enjoy. What you say about the people who are badly affected by it isn't untrue, but it comes off as though you're blaming the hobby itself, but if we follow that logic to its conclusion we will have to start banning hobbies to protect people, which will inevitably just hurt everyone, instead of treating the root cause of the issues which will a) actually make people better, and b) allow people to just enjoy unusual hobbies without being demonised for something that isn't their fault.
Yeah I get what you’re saying, I think we’re saying two different things, you that the cultural, mythological, or “game” (or “lore”) aspect of it doesn’t have to erased, me that the practice of it in a cultural context in which it’s acceptable to believe it is a slippery slope. Ultimately I’m not really advocating a “solution” either way, because as you say, it would mean a sweeping and problematic restriction of rights. I just wish people would stop practicing astrology and other folk beliefs as anything beyond an acknowledged fantasy hobby.
>I just wish people would stop practicing astrology and other folk beliefs as anything beyond an acknowledged fantasy hobby. You know what, same here, I think we're on the same page. I do wish that people who discuss astrology etc online would lean more into it being a fantasy subject or "game", to borrow your phrasing, but that might actually be easier than we think if enough people in those circles discuss it the right way.
astrology is just space racism
spaceism
Literally all of your problems are from the stars, and the sooner you accept that the sooner you can heal.
I mean you aren't wrong but...
I will fight the stars to the death, come at me ya fucks.
https://preview.redd.it/ek7tlck37g5d1.png?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b63908fe1e4e68b8801001b1191c7532018aa9f
I fucking knew someone was gonna post radahn the moment I wrote that comment.
Imagine claiming to be an atheist and then believing that the orientation of the sun and moon and stars are what determines your life’s outcome. Determinism for people who don’t want to deal with the consequences of it
My personality is defined by my bloodtype!
Look, as a Scorpio-
You want some ammo? 1. Astrology used to have 13 months for the 13 lunar months therefore astrology based on the 12 month Gregorian Christian calendar is inherently wrong. For anyone curious the missing 13th sign is 'Ophiuchus' 2. Stars move in relation to our perception of them over time because our star system is moving through space as well as just rotating. This means that we currently tie the months to entirely the wrong signs. This is true regardless of the 12 or 13 months versions. So yeah, none of us are the sign we think for two unrelated big reasons.
The 13th sign was the serpent and it was removed because people killed their newborn under the serpent sign. A long time ago
Serpent Bearer, not serpent itself. "Ophiuchus is often associated with healing images. The Romans associated the constellation with Asclepius, who learned the secret to immortality by watching one serpent treat another serpent with healing herbs. Zeus killed Asclepius with a lightning bolt because he didn't want everyone to be immortal, but later honored his good deeds by giving him a spot in the heavens. The Babylonians associated the constellation with Nirah, a god who was sometimes depicted with a human upper body and legs that were serpents." Nothing you said about sacrifice is accurate, but it does sound like church propaganda.
Yeah, you are surely right. But Christians do not associate serpent with anything good (it was Christians who bullied / killed serpent associated people) However, I did not checked any source and might be spreading misinformation online
I can think of one example where christians associate serpents and good and it's directly related to the same ancient meaning as Ophiuchus. It's the [Caduceus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus)
The best part about astrology people is that I can assign them traits of Homestuck characters and they'll wholeheartedly believe it. Have fun kinning vriska, idiot.
Astrology is race realism for white girls and gay Filipino people.
It has begun… the great astrology rejection. Tg astrology stupid as hell.
I think *astronomers* hate astrology more than anyone. Must watch: [https://youtube.com/shorts/70t-GCnKAsk?si=UhR088lXeJCPDfIH](https://youtube.com/shorts/70t-GCnKAsk?si=UhR088lXeJCPDfIH)
On the way home from college last year, this girl sat with me and my friends bc they all knew each other from previous schools. I’d never met this person and I’d barely said a word in the conversation, but when astrology came up, she said something along the lines of ‘Pisces men are awful and should kill themselves’. Guess what I happen to be.
Fine... But height though....
Tbh I find historical astrology genuinely fascinating and using the stars to divine the future is honestly sick as hell. I just hate that astrology is just... Putting people in boxes, now
The funniest shit I can remember in the past year was when I lied to a lady talking about astrology, where I had her guess my sign and she got it wrong 8 times, I told her she got it on the 9th, and she believed me and said “well yeah that makes sense” and then told her I was lying and told her I was a different one, which she said “oh, that’s such a Scorpio thing to do” or whatever and I finally told her my real sign, and she was adamant that after getting it wrong 10 times out of 12, that she was stil right and Star signs predict shit
Why not both? Astrology is very silly but it’s fun regardless
On the other hand, stars are pretty
I remember there was a story of a lady who killed her kids and her self, this year when the solar eclipse happened because she thought the solar eclipse is gonna do something
god this thread is insufferable. i just like to look at pretty cards lmao i’m not making some grand commentary about your trauma
Fucking real, lots of fun people here.
I think there's a fine line between making huge decisions based on astrological beliefs and putting personality traits on someone by their star sign and having an interest in astrology as a whole. It's like looking at someone who just orays every morning and the most hardcore bible-thumping bigot and saying they're the same. There's always gonna be shitty people using ways to try and justify their shitty behavior. Don't demonize the justification when there's a lot of people who aren't using it that way.
There is some merit to the cultural history of astrology, which is cool and fun to learn about, and it's a handy conversation tool with new coworkers/bar guests. If they bring it up I know exactly how to talk to and relate to them because I *do* entertain conversations about astrology even though it's not something I live and die by. Plus, my astrology friends always remember my bday, which is nice. For many it's just a way to pay attention to others rather than putting em in a lil box. It goes beyond "you are a cancer so this is your personality" there's actually a lot more nuance than that, and more about navigating circumstances than it is about categorizing ppl. It's pretty harmless, and most people really aren't that annoying/mean about it if you actually talk to them. Just the people who are annoying or mean point blank so you can hardly fault astrology. Shitty people will be shitty whether the stars told them to or not.
I know this is reddit, but astrology is often just a way people anslyse their lives. A lot of people know it means nothing but do it because it's fun, or forces them to think about where their life is going. It's like trying to read the 5 stages of grief into a story, sometimes that's helpful when trying to understand it, and other times it's not, but it's not futile or forceful.
Generational drama for me would be the beef my mother has with Caroline, that thin-lipped recipe stealing bitch. For me and her kids, its on sight.
Astrology people need to realize that they are essentially religious. Christians coming and telling you that you are going to hell because you disobeyed their religion even though you aren't Christian is incredibly rude. So is making assumptions and assigning characteristics to someone based on your star belief system. You can believe it and do it amongst yourselves but you must understand that it is a belief and it is faith and it is subjective in practice.
Its just another religion, nothing special at all
Sounds like something a scorpio would say.
That's just such a leo thing to say
astrology is to esoterism what liberalism is to facism
Metaphorically speaking, every individual is a star of their own world, of which 2 or more were ~~[redacted]~~ aligned for your creation.
Nit enough Homestuck in the comments, in disappointed in you all
This is just as silly as choosing your birth sign in Elder's Scrolls
I hate the beliefs of astrology and their ideological associations but I fucking love the aesthetic
but homestuck 🥺
My friends and I don't believe in astrology, but we do know the details and connections, the rules. It's fun. It's fun to trash talk using it. And it filters out people around you who don't vibe with it. And you don't have to vibe with it. Just don't be a dick about it, and we won't be a dick about it to you. I've long since stopped counting the number of times someone has said, "You know it's not real, right?" In a thinly veiled condescending tone. My usual response is, "No shit Sherlock, you figure that out just now?" Now, though, I like to act surprised and say stuff like, "Oh wow, really? Can you explain why? Oh, that's so smart of you! Thank you for telling me that. you're so smart!" Really ramp up the sarcasm towards the end. Dunking on people for like astrology because "it's not real" is like Dunking on someone who knows and loves warhammer 40k because "it's not real."
Constellations and zodiacs are actually really cool in terms of mythology and history but they got turned into personality tests
Fuck astrology, what is your classpect and are you a Derse or a Prospit dreamer? http://hs.hiveswap.com/ezodiac/index.php
The only time I care about zodiacs is when I remember I'm born on the year of the Dragon. Aside from that I just try to be respectful but have clear boundaries with my friends who do believe
Can't even get it lined up with the actual constellations, smh. It's seasonal, apparently, so those stars don't even matter. And why do we care about constellations that aren't visible on your birthday at practical times, smh. I'm going to start telling people I'm a Gemini or a Taurus or a Sagittarius because those are cool constellations. If I wore jewelry, I'd buy necklaces with those constellations and confuse people.
I am an astrology defended. In a take sthe spirituality out of it? None of it is real in the way we think of real. But it’s a tool to me to interpret my experience though. Used to be a Christian, read the bible a lot, and it’s about as real. But it gave me language and a framework to understand the world Some people take it way way too far. But once I read some horoscopes and learned about my sign, I really started to work on myself as a person. And someone with their head on straight will always tell you about a reading or a horoscope that you take what resonates with you and you leave what doesn’t. If you read it in a horoscope it’s not a prediction. It’s more a framework to fit people in, not unsimilar to personality tests
I mean, the month you're born in does significantly impact your life, see Chapter 1 of Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell
Astrology is real. My zodiac sign is a Leo. (At the same time) …Leo. You would be wouldn’t you? How did you- I’m asking the questions here.
Why is this getting downvoted? Did people just read the first line and not realise that the rest is a quote
Thats just how reddit is sometimes dude. Sometimes they prefer blue to orange and thar she blows
astrology isnt just the zodiac signs, ~~although a lot of this thread seems to be specifically bashing on that aspect of it~~.. and a lot of this thread seems to conflate the two. it feels like a bunch of people talking shit about something they dont really know anything about. also why is this flaired seizure warning? and why is this posted in this sub?? this is supposed to be a shitposting subreddit right?? like not trying to minimod but this post confuses me for an array of reasons. i get ur logic but this is a vent that i wasnt exactly prepared to see when i browsed this sub edited shortly after sending for clarification edited again after the first comment because i realised i conveyed my feelings badly
Going beyond sun signs and being more specific with your spacism doesn't make it better or more accurate. It's not like your Zodiac sign doesn't matter, but your moon sign? No that's totally a legitimate way of pre-judging people. None of it has any basis in reality or is based on any amount of science.
look past the astrological sign BS. astrology isn't just pre-judging people, there's horoscopes for one popular example of something that doesnt hurt anyone. it doesnt need to be based on science, it's fun! the parts that arent pre-judging people, at least. and btw: i don't see anybody IRL doing that. idk what prompted this persons post, but the commenters are acting like this is some huge phenomenon. i dont use tiktok, maybe thats why im not seeing it?? like sure theres one nutjob every 5 years in my life who does that, but its not a huge phenomenon that i see warranting hate towards anyone ever who enjoys the fun of astrology.
dont waste energy worrying about other peoples interests. Everyone is into weird shit and if someone thinks personalities are designed by the stars and they have fun with that then who am i to care. Just let people be people, we've believed in irrational things since the beginning of the human race because why the hell not. its fun sometimes.
But not when it's actually harmful to people. You might think it's just harmless and quirky, but some people make important decisions based on astrology, and it leads to some really bad results
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I have a friend who believes she can't get out of a depressed period she's in becaus eof some planet rising in some sign. She's not even trying to get better because the stars have decided for her that she can't right now.
that is pretty concerning. thanks for providing a good example, and I hope your friend can get the help they need someday
Throwing away potential relationships based on star signs isn’t an important decision? Huh?
[Reagan based some of his decisions on astrology, so the harm of astrology cannot be nonzero](https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/04/us/white-house-confirms-reagans-follow-astrology-up-to-a-point.html)
there hasn’t but redditors love to waste time hating things for no reason, astrology is just one of many