" It's understandable the information we present is what you will attach to "
Well yes... Cause that's the information you present.
They're acting like it's strange that when they present a set of information then do something completely different without telling anyone, people expect it to be what they were presented...
Jagex: "We will give you £10"
Us: "We accept"
Jagex: \*gives £2.50
Us: "This isn't what you said you'd give us"
Jagex: "It's completely understandable that the information that we present is what you attach to but things can change between the initial pitch and release"
I think what they are saying is "Stop trying to calculate drop rates, xp rates, max hits, stat changes and complicated interactions until we actually release the content, as these things are subject to change and haven't been properly labelled as such in the past."
Don't need to calculate any of that to realize something showing up at Wave 7 minimum of the Colloseum isn't as availible as they originally made it seem in the polls. There is no drops rates there, just Wave 7 isn't easily accessible to most players.
Nobody even tried to calculate the drop rate from what I saw. It was simply them saying "these items will be available in lower Waves" and "these items are items that early game accounts would pursue"
Now, both statements are vague and don't promise much. But I'd personally argue that "early game accounts" that would pursue this gear would probably be in the range of about 70-90 combat, maybe up to 100 combat. New players with accounts in that combat range aren't getting beyond about wave 5 or so. My evidence of this is a true rookie player in my clan on his first account that is combat level 95 or 96 has about 1800 glory which is probably wave 3 or 4...if that.
So an early game account in the hands of a true noob needs to be about to reasonably complete that content in order to qualify for the "early game accounts pursue this" statement to be true. I emphasize "true rookie" because a player like Khazard could probably clear Sol on a freakin 40cb account (or whatever combat level is required to get overheads and enough range/strength level to at least roll some hits.
That's where this comes up, rookie players aren't getting to waves 5 and up which means early game accounts can't pursue this gear
>My evidence of this is a true rookie player in my clan on his first account that is combat level 95 or 96 has about 1800 glory which is probably wave 3 or 4...if that.
Just to confirm: Depending on the modifiers picked and clear speed Wave 3 can make it to 2000 glory. 1800 is doable by wave 2.
Source: Combat 105 rookie account, have cleared Wave 3 with just over 2000 glory. Don't have proof, but I want to say the highest glory I've seen from Wave 2 was 1900-ish.
'the information we present is what you will attach to'
who actually wrote this? like no. it's not 'what you presented' - it's what you put on the poll. nobody out here voted for a slight prayer bonus armor set that is rare af.
what else am I supposed to expect other than what was written in plain language. do they _want_ me to anticipate they're going to go back on their pitches without telling anyone? are they saying we should _expect_ them to not be candid with us about what they're making? what is this?
“We’re sorry the community got all attached to this new sailing idea but we thought it was obvious what we really meant was we were going to make summoning 2.0”
I'm pretty sure this is just a Community Manager L because on today's stream, Kieren just straight up owned up to it and accepted that they made a mistake and didn't deliver what was promised.
And because it now exists in the game and is so hard to get, we'll likely not get a new prayer armour that is actually attainable for most (I'll wait and see how much difference the wave 3 changes make) or linked to the Temple Knights questline (which was my preference) for a long time.
I'm more sad about a new quest after the slug menace taking forever than not having a new set tbh. Not every quest needs an upgrade esp with how much new stuff keeps coming into the game. You could give an upgrade over the holy mace though, which could fit the continuation of the questline and be quite useful.
Tldr where's cold war 2 jagex
We need to see the squirrels! There were a few comments in Cold War about "I bet you're working for the squirrels", and now I *need* a squirrel city. I bet there could be cool woodcutting content.
This is what gets me the most.
They shoot themselves on the foot by doing shit like this and it keeps happening again and again.
Slight upgrade to proselyte armour, something that can be acquired within 1-2 days of playing? Drop from endgame content (I know they're changing it to wave 3 which is more reasonable, but it's still weird).
Similarly, upgrade to a magic weapon with literally +1 max hit and healing effect? Endgame raid.
Upgrade to the dragon defender, that provides +2 strength and a bit of accuracy? Endgame raid.
The only gloves in the game that provide range strength come from nex, at a +2 bonus.
They have put a lot of items out without putting much thought into "where do we go from here though?".
I hope the item rebalance fixes a lot of this, but I'm probably huffing Copium.
I tried explaining this to my ex-wife.
She may have gotten attached to the idea of me not fucking the au pair, and I understand that was the information I presented during the marriage ceremony, but she needs to understand that things can change between the initial pitch and now.
Personally I think it's an immature and offensive way to communicate with the community. It shows a real lack of respect or understanding of where everyone is coming from.
I don't think the person that wrote it needs to be publicly identified or put on blast, but internally I think they should get some retraining for that bullshit.
I feel like throughout the whole development of varlamore someone on the dev team has taken a stance of "fuck you we're the devs we do what we want and the players will have to accept it", a lot of feedback has fallen on deaf ears (or the point of some given feedback completely misunderstood).
Is that what this is? Because I recall voting on a strong prayer bonus set that would put it along the lines of ranged proselyte. I was having a case of wishful thinking that it just hadn’t been released yet.
New World was on a crash course to getting shut down 6 months after launch, tbh at this point I’m just impressed it’s still around- it’s done just well enough to keep itself alive this long.
The other half of that is that players generally do know what they don't want, and give better feedback about problems than solutions. The polling system isn't perfect, but it helps catch a lot of problems before they make it into the game.
There's a video of someone (I want to say Bill Hader?) giving writing advice and he says that when you show your work to people and they have criticisms or negative feedback you should listen to them and understand why they don't like it, but as soon as they start saying what they think would be better you just ignore them completely. I think that logic applies here: the playerbase is right when they're telling Jagex they messed up, but their solutions are almost never actually good solutions.
That's the main reason polls are important. People think it's for us to tell Jagex what we want, but the opposite is true - polls are there for Jagex to tell us what THEY want, and for us to tell them which ideas are bad and need to be either reworked or thrown out.
The WoW community still hasn't gotten over "You think you do, but you don't" with regards to Classic. Of course, it was popular on release because of the initial hype, similar to OSRS, but because they re-tread all the same ground, they basically just played the exact same game back in terms of content release and the numbers have stagnated since, until they came out with Season of Discovery which became their version of Leagues and that's been more popular.
In the end, the dev was probably right, OSRS wouldn't still be here if it wasn't iterated on past that initial release, and while there were people that wanted the original, they were looking through rose-tinted glasses. I know I wouldn't want to play a pure 2007 OSRS as long as I've played what we have now.
Seconded. Pure 2007 OSRS would be fun for a day or a week (and I say this as someone who \*loved\* RuneScape back in 2007). But once the nostalgia wears off, I'd quickly realize that a game that never updates just is not any fun at all, and that 2007 RuneScape had a \*lot\* of flaws.
It's why I find it difficult to take people seriously who say that 'Old School isn't Old School anymore' and get angry about it. They're right that Old School has changed, but that change is what still makes it be relevant today. If nothing had ever changed, we as a community would probably have gotten tired of it after the first month except for a few outliers.
As for the newspost, Jagex has a history of terrible PR posts. It annoys me at times, but all in all the company is decent and seems to care about the players, so I've learned to see it as the price of playing OSRS
It is for better or worse the way straight in a concrete wall if you only do what players ask for, but you also can't ignore everything. Everything needs to be filtered out which can be a very difficult task (not related to the issue at hand but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in)
Man I loved it, they just had an absolutely terrible way to handle endgame. Crank up the HP and damage like crazy and put up artificial daily caps. They had a great early and mid game and should've left it there tbh, and left room for future updates to expand the game and build an enjoyable endgame.
Wars were really neat though. I had a lot of fun manning siege weapons and repairing shit, you could feel really impactful.
Same. That launch month of new world was the most fun I've ever had gaming. Literally the only time in my entire life I've gamed all the way to sunrise, got breakfast and a shower, and started the grind again.
How? The game became more and more unfinished as you progressed to the end game. Literally the half drawn horse meme. You should have noticed it was fucked atleast 20-30 hrs in.
Gear Progression fucked.
Resource balance fucked.
Resource gathering fucked.
Economy fucked (deflation).
Company wars fucked.
Amount of content fucked.
Late stage gameplay loops fucked.
Armor slots fucked.
Expansions making old content irrelevant.
Server pops fucked.
I'm also not saying you couldn't enjoy it for 1300 hrs but it should have been apparent that the end game was not fleshed out... At all. Even though they patched up and fixed up some of the things I mentioned, it was never a complete fix but rather a bandaid, and at the end of the day there was very little content to be had which is a huge sin for a MMO.
I haven't followed anything about that game, but I have found that true working in the software product world. People will tell you what they want, you'll spend time working on it, deliver it as stated, and then they'll say it wasn't what they wanted. That's why there are jobs whose purpose is to actually decide what should be worked on instead of only listening to customers.
That being said, if you say you are delivering something, decide it isn't what people want, and then when they get it they complain it isn't what they want, you should probably own that and listen.
The "We'll make clearer which areas are subject to change" is a really interesting way to come out of this and decide on.
Basically we can vote on something we really like and once it has the poll stamp, Jagex can then change it as much as they want because "Subject to change".
The real problem Jagex faces, if they admit that such drastic changes post-poll are a problem, is that they will always, from this point forward, have a swath of players unhappy that any miniscule change from a poll wasn't repolled. They'll essentially be locking themselves into only doing exactly what was polled, or else face *some* semblance of backlash. And since this community is so damn bloodthirsty, any backlash can quickly turn into *a lot* of backlash over the tiniest things.
So they're taking an approach of "we can do whatever we want as long as it's still somewhat similar to what was polled" because they legitimately do need *some* freedom to iterate. But we'll see if the playerbase is sated with the compromise of "we'll just clearly mark what we think might change."
I can't speak for the playerbase, but I'd be happy if they communicated the things they've wound up changing instead of sneaking changes in hoping no-one notices (because let's face it, this community always does and it's always a bigger shitstorm that way).
I’ve been on one of those software development teams and I regret to inform you all that this right here is, in fact, *exactly* what happens. It’s not a conspiracy
Ye.. why poll something if you just completely deviate from it in the development process. Like sure, they should get some creative freedom sometimes, 100%. But this has nothing to do with that. They just completely changed some very well defined parameters without even informing the playerbase, let alone repolling it.
The sun armor from the coliseum. It was supposed to be something you can get early. Just dipping your toes in so people were expecting wave 1 to 4 would drop it. Jagex decided 6+ before you had any chance at it
So jagex straight up lied? Yeah, I can see why people are mad now. If jagex continues this type of behaviour, there'll be massive trust issues between the company and player base.
That’s what gets me. Like, credit where credit is due, they fixed their fuck-up.
But this isn’t the first (or second, or third, etc) time that their own imprecise language in blogs has caused issues for them after players (rightly) expected one thing and got another.
So why doesn’t it ever just come with an apology? Why is it passive aggressive every time? Yeah players expected to get what was in the poll blog lol
"look, we get that when we said "steak made of cow" some of you expected beef, you ungrateful little shits, so we're grudgingly replacing this cow shape we cut out of a piece of fish"
I definitely get that stuff can and does change between initial concept, prototyping, and implementation. This is true of all developmental fields, not just games. That being said... This was polled content, and when the votes mismatch the outcome, it has a tremendous negative impact on many of us who felt like we were making an informed decision. The information changed behind the scenes, so that decision has been uprooted from its context and, in this new context, very well could have changed.
Sometimes stuff \*has\* to change during the design and development phase, but if it does, don't just write the players out of that process partway though and leave us to pick up the pieces afterwards.
This is where I'm at. I'm not annoyed that things changed. Polling, at the end of the day, is just a really interesting way to drive development, and has its benefits and drawbacks. If something had to change, then let it change. I don't think polling should be some contract.
But if we are going to have polling, it should either A) Be followed to a reasonable degree or B) Communicated that it is being deviated from and explain why.
Neither of those were followed here, and instead the players were made to look unreasonable for expecting the content to match what they voted for. Like I said, at the end of the day, this is Jagex's game and polling is just a way they've agreed with the community to drive development. But if you are going to commit to that system, acting like this is just... poor community management.
>I don't think polling should be some contract.
But it is in the case with Jagex and OSRS. They promised long ago to poll major changes and additions to the game due to the games history with players leaving when they don't like the direction the game went in. Polling something and it passing and then Jagex just doing something different is a big violation of trust.
>We realize you're frustrated because we acted deliberately - and we completely understand where you're coming from - but we can't always get what we want and there's no use in crying about it lol
Jagexed
Honestly, I admit this was really bad wording on my part, and I can only apologise for that. As a lot of comments pointed out, Kieren did a much better job summing this up in yesterday's stream than I did within this post.
What I was trying to get across was that we made a mistake and I wanted to showcase how we're trying to be better - none of that is on you as players and I'm genuinely sorry if that's how it came across.
As always I really do appreciate your feedback, especially when it's something that doesn't sit right with you all, regarding either content or communication.
It's really refreshing to see developers who are this genuine. Thanks for listening to feedback and being involved with the community, even when the reception is negative. We appreciate you a lot!
We do, and while Sarnies wording was indeed incredibly unfortunate and definitely added fuel to the fire (including for me), Sarnie's response is not the root problem here. The problem is the fact that the collective trust in the polling system got shafted once again. It's becoming more and more common that delivered content has significant deviations from what was polled (and passed).
At what point do I need to start voting tactically? Keeping in mind that while I might like this specific update, they might slightly change it in ways that I would have voted differently for. That's what I'm genuinely annoyed about.
Personally I was fine with lowering the poll threshold, allowing the devs some more breathing room to implant their own vision for the game in new updates, without having to appeal to almost everyone at the same time. But I'm slowly starting to come around from that, especially if this is what that empowerment leads to. It kind of feels like a 'Give a finger, they'll take your entire hand'-situation.
Polls need a built in approval system, this would get us away from having to raise a stink in order to get stupid shit fixed when it eventually happens.
Jagex is bad at delivering final products with no needs for tweaks, cosmetics like the first proposals for masori or the quiver attest to that. What they’re good at is gathering feedback and fixing mistakes, like they’ve done here, like they did with masori, and how they’re planning on tweaking quiver. It works and it leaves things better off overall compared to a reasonable expectation of a company that only does one passover on content with no feedback, but it could use a better system.
This refinement process needs something more efficient than “bad = complain on twitter/reddit” because voting no on the poll doesn’t send the correct message, it just jeopardizes the content altogether.
The community and developer relationship with old school RuneScape is lightning in a bottle. Only game that has recently come close is the classic wow team with season of discovery
Appreciate the reply. I think, combined with the thread about the issue yesterday, players were just left concerned about the "state" of polling, and the wording here sort of heightened that concern because it avoided mentioning the actual issue, at least for me. Good to get things cleared up.
I can't imagine how stressful your job must be. You use a little poor wording and suddenly hundreds of people are commenting how you're an evil trickster. I get anxious when sending an email to just one person at work lol
> They blundered this time but lets give credit where credit is due
Ok, give them credit for gaslighting the player base then because that's what they're doing.
Its classic Jagex to be reluctant and condescending when they are called on their mistakes so aggressively that they actually have to fix them.
They absolutely refuse to admit fault in situations like this and its honestly a bit insulting. This line stuck out to me as well, gave a slight sour taste in the mouth.
Where is this sentiment coming from?? They admit to mistakes all the time. Even too much in my opinion. I'm so tired of this sub acting like the oldshool team malicious when there one of the most transparent commutative studio that I can think of.
It's coming from the fucking screenshot bro. They didn't say "we pitched and polled it this way, but changed it during development and didn't tell you. Whoops, sorry"
They said "Although things can change between an initial pitch, later newsposts and sometimes even before a release, it's completely understandable that the information we present is what you will attach to. We'll make it much clearer throughout development which areas are subject to change and highlight those that should not - we've already got some thoughts on how to do this!"
The poll question that was voted on, with 79.8% yes
"Would you be comfortable with the addition of the best-in-slot Prayer version of Sunfire Fanatic armour, as described in the blog?"
The blog mentioned : "The Sunfire Fanatic Armour was our attempt at keeping things simple. Even though the later waves (and eventual endless runs) of the Colosseum scale up to test even seasoned PvMers, we still want there to be something in it for people looking to get their feet wet with some earlier waves."
And this post shows how abysmal rates are at the lowest waves available, which are not available for people "looking to get their feet wet", as that would not be wave 6. Wave 3 where they are now? Yea, sure.
https://old.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bupbw7/colosseum_accumulative_rates_for_items/?ref=share&ref_source=link
So, with all of that laid out, the sentiment is coming from them saying we "attached to what was presented". No, we fucking **voted** on what was presented in a blog and subsequent poll. We got attached to what we **voted** on. What the fuck. They are literally lying and trying to delude us into thinking we're not basing our feelings on facts that were not respected by their content developers.
Straight up, all they had to say was "thanks to your feedback, we realize that in our initial blog and poll, we stated it would be for getting your feet wet, which wave 6+ clearly isn't the right feeling across the community. Our mistake, we'll try to communicate more of those details ahead of release as best we can."
Instead, they're weaseling with "well, things change in development, despite polls, sorry we didn't tell you." Instead of even admitting they messed up. They literally don't take blame in the apology in the screenshot, they just say "sorry you felt that way. It changed cause that happens as we develop. Sorry you feel differently" which is a bullshit non-apology.
This is their way of saying that no matter what is polled they reserve the right to do something completely different because they can.
So unless they come back and state the changes to already polled content, and put it up for another poll, then they may as well just get rid of polls entirely.
"It's understandable that the information we present is what you will attach to."
Yeah, The stuff that you say will go in the game is, generally, what I feel like *I should expect will go in the game*. Considering the history of actually, you know, *telling us* when significant changes are made, I'd like to think you'd tell us if something does end up changing from the initial pitch.
I somewhat get it because the polling system is somewhat at odds with the creative process, but that doesn't really apply when you suddenly decide that +2 prayer bonus should be a rare pvm drop and we're all wrong lol
I mean, they can be as creative as they want, but once they decide on something enough to poll it, they should stick to it.
If they decide they want to make further changes, poll it again.
People that remember how the Fang was polled:
https://preview.redd.it/r8e3vuzmvisc1.jpeg?width=1427&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=671ef781d49ba53d35b55acdd36543b0ceb58147
I don't even get who the people defending these drop rates are that I've been arguing with. I don't understand what type of player would think that generating 1 full set of Sunfire Fanatic should be nearly as rare as pet, or even be rare at all with the size of the community that is even realistically capable of farming this content. It sure ain't the people actually playing Colosseum. I'm convinced that they just want to shit on ironmen without realizing they're also shitting on the 99% of mains that are also unable to use the new items as there'd be no sets in the game. This ain't just "it is okay for some things to be rare," it makes absolutely no sense for *these items in particular* to be so rare, especially given the way they were proposed and voted in.
IF this is endgame content designed to be repeatable and highly profitable, AND the prayer armor is mid-game at best armor, THEN it should follow that the endgame players farming the content should be absolutely pumping out this Sunfire Armor??
Sunfire Fanatic Armour from the Colosseum
When it was polled, it was positioned as relatively accessible upgrade over Proselyte that was meant to be an accessible consolation prize for mid-level players who couldn’t get very far in the colosseum.
When they revealed drop mechanics today, it’s only available from Wave 6 onwards, and is twice as rare as echo crystals.
Thus people saying this isn’t what we voted for.
From the November 3rd poll blog:
“Since players having the option to duck out in earlier waves, we've aimed for a spread of rewards that span a range of players, meaning those who are just dipping their toes into the Colosseum might be able to make it out with some Sunfire Dust or a piece of Sunfire Fanatic Armour, but players chasing the Glaive of Ralos will want to be consistently going all the way!”
“Sunfire Fanatic Armour is a Prayer-focused set that we expect will be reasonably easy to obtain even at the lower waves”
I’ve been full steam ahead (pardon the pun) since the initial vote for it but the past few updates (as in content not the sailing update blogs)we’ve had i’m now dreading what we get
Yeah, in theory it was a nice idea. However you can quickly see its just an attention grab to get new players for a month or 2, I can see the online adds now "come experience osrs's first new skill in 10 years!!!" Lol
Honestly, anyone who didn’t predict Sailing to end up being an enormous clusterfuck was living in meme-dream land.
Sailing will be an absolute nightmare on release, make no mistake. But it got voted through because “haha sailing meme funni!”
It didn’t get voted in as a meme. Idk how people are still trying to say this. Argue that it won’t live up to what they proposed, but people voted on it because they thought the proposal sounded good.
it did only make it by barely 2% as well. It's entirely plausible to argue that it only got as much consideration as it did because it's been a 17 year long meme.
People say it because it's true. Sailing's pitch was very much so "it could be anything. Maybe even a good skill!" A quick look at the threads back then also make it abundantly clear that a lot of the community legitimately thought that it was going to be Sea of Thieves crossed with TOB crossed with Slayer except even cooler because it's on water.
I voted no for this reason and this reason alone. I simply do not trust Jagex to release a new skill as it was polled or without making "integrity" changes along the way. The end product is going to end up nothing like what was discussed. XP rates, content, activities will all be endlessly discussed and there will be a poll on these and they will change them by the time the skill is actually released.
Upon release, it will take weeks or even months for them to fix everything. They will say, "oopsie!" and then go, "we're listening to your feedback!!!" But it won't change the fact that they can't seem to release major content without having to go back and make 15,000 changes because players are upset that they didn't get what was polled.
I’m fine with little tweaks being made, it’ll be a huge new system after all so things are bound to be slightly broken here and there. It’s the blatant disregard to poll results we’re getting recently that are my problem
Well, maybe it is just that more of the experienced devs are working on Sailing... That kinda might be the case, at least partially. Like I think Husky and Elena are some of the ones on Sailing.
This is why they won't poll anything in the future.
Introducing 3 attack styles for range and elemental weaknesses isn't polled now as it is a "balance change". This community is so cucked.
This is an extremely “RS3 thing” to write.
I think they need to be careful with stuff like this as we have seen what decisions like this and then justification afterwards leads to on the other side of the fence.
I can get what they are trying to say, but yah, that is pretty bad phrasing on their part. Like it is understandable that some things might change over development, but if they poll specifics or even implied specifics, then we shouldn't expect those to change.
For example, the Moon armors were polled with stats. Changing the stats from what was polled is not just expected balancing; if you didn't want players to expect a specific stats you should have just said "low defence bonuses" and not have given us specific numbers. And if they do really need to change them for balancing reasons or such, they should at least tell us before release instead of continuing to use the same pre-poll stats like nothing changed...
So yah, that is definitely on them for not being clear what is subject to change. Also, I'd argue that things like drop rates and stats shouldn't be subject to change over development. Like if they are willing to change an item's stats and/or rarity between poll and release, then what are we even voting on at that point? Like if we vote on a WIP concept prayer that gives 25% str from WGS, it shouldn't be able to change into 30% Str from a rare scroll drop just because it was a WIP concept.
Hey Jagex, how about you don't poll it unless you intend to put it in the game the same way you polled it.
If you want to keep implementing stuff we didn't vote on, or you want to change stuff AFTER, we have voted on it. Then I'll just vote with my wallet and cancle my 3 subs. I did it with RS3, and I'll do it again.
What an absolute shitshow. Blatently disregard what was polled, only to come around to basically say; "Well you guys just don't get it".
Like what are they doing? It's like they're doing a speed run of 'lose player support any%'...
Why does it feel like Jagex doesn't want to admit fault on this one? The way this reads is like an angry child forced to change something when they're in the wrong.
Listen, if Jagex is going to release things that aren't how they were provided in the poll blogs that we based our votes on then there needs to be a 4th voting option that just says "I vote yes to exactly what was described in the blog and if it's different then what was provided I vote no/skip"
Don't stop being upset until they fix their mistakes guys.
Seriously, don't stop. Otherwise they'll learn they can get away with it and continue eroding the playerbase's trust.
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**JagexSarnie**
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This is horrendous management and communication. Players "attach" to what is in the polls because that is what is being voted on to be added to the game. This is how this whole polling system is supposed to work.
A lot of companies really wouldn't accept this kind of botched delivery especially when it is repeated behavior.
Yeah, really weird to be all snarky about being called out for blatantly disregarding the proposed and polled content.
Why are they blaming players for saying "hey, this wasn't what we voted yes to"
What is this take lmao. Software developers implement whatever requirements they get. In this case, it should have come directly from the poll results, but there was probably some game designer, product owner or technical director with different ideas.
They’ve made it so rare in the hopes that it retains a shred of value because they were devoid of ideas to give it actual good uniques. Still can’t believe the prayer armour even passed at all.
What is this in reference to? I see people saying they released something that’s different to how it was presented in the poll. What is it? I saw someone else mention a prayer set
As someone who tries to avoid the newspost to have "suprise content" for myself, i disagree with jagex's stance. I trust our player base to work with jagex to help create the content we play. Much like creativy freedoms in a writers vs producers scenario, we've agreed to a standard between the devs and mods and our community. I dont want to be disrespectful in saying, jagex should honor the effective agreement we have in regards to the poll system
the worst part about this whole sunfire fiasco is that it let the fact that not a single one of the moons sets actually matched the stats that were polled slip under the radar, especially bloodmoon.
But they were also (almost) all buffs, so I guess it's fine, right... (and listen, I'm not going to die on the hill that the spear getting +20 slash / crush accuracy is ending the world, but it's the principle of the thing y'know?)
" It's understandable the information we present is what you will attach to " Well yes... Cause that's the information you present. They're acting like it's strange that when they present a set of information then do something completely different without telling anyone, people expect it to be what they were presented...
Jagex: "We will give you £10" Us: "We accept" Jagex: \*gives £2.50 Us: "This isn't what you said you'd give us" Jagex: "It's completely understandable that the information that we present is what you attach to but things can change between the initial pitch and release"
Jagex: "I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it further"
"fear will keep them in line"
Pride and accomplishment all over again
I think what they are saying is "Stop trying to calculate drop rates, xp rates, max hits, stat changes and complicated interactions until we actually release the content, as these things are subject to change and haven't been properly labelled as such in the past."
Don't need to calculate any of that to realize something showing up at Wave 7 minimum of the Colloseum isn't as availible as they originally made it seem in the polls. There is no drops rates there, just Wave 7 isn't easily accessible to most players.
Nobody even tried to calculate the drop rate from what I saw. It was simply them saying "these items will be available in lower Waves" and "these items are items that early game accounts would pursue" Now, both statements are vague and don't promise much. But I'd personally argue that "early game accounts" that would pursue this gear would probably be in the range of about 70-90 combat, maybe up to 100 combat. New players with accounts in that combat range aren't getting beyond about wave 5 or so. My evidence of this is a true rookie player in my clan on his first account that is combat level 95 or 96 has about 1800 glory which is probably wave 3 or 4...if that. So an early game account in the hands of a true noob needs to be about to reasonably complete that content in order to qualify for the "early game accounts pursue this" statement to be true. I emphasize "true rookie" because a player like Khazard could probably clear Sol on a freakin 40cb account (or whatever combat level is required to get overheads and enough range/strength level to at least roll some hits. That's where this comes up, rookie players aren't getting to waves 5 and up which means early game accounts can't pursue this gear
>My evidence of this is a true rookie player in my clan on his first account that is combat level 95 or 96 has about 1800 glory which is probably wave 3 or 4...if that. Just to confirm: Depending on the modifiers picked and clear speed Wave 3 can make it to 2000 glory. 1800 is doable by wave 2. Source: Combat 105 rookie account, have cleared Wave 3 with just over 2000 glory. Don't have proof, but I want to say the highest glory I've seen from Wave 2 was 1900-ish.
They always say this bs lmao
'the information we present is what you will attach to' who actually wrote this? like no. it's not 'what you presented' - it's what you put on the poll. nobody out here voted for a slight prayer bonus armor set that is rare af.
what else am I supposed to expect other than what was written in plain language. do they _want_ me to anticipate they're going to go back on their pitches without telling anyone? are they saying we should _expect_ them to not be candid with us about what they're making? what is this?
“We’re sorry the community got all attached to this new sailing idea but we thought it was obvious what we really meant was we were going to make summoning 2.0”
"I can see how you might assume that the things we said would be true but that's your mistake"
This lmao.
I'm pretty sure this is just a Community Manager L because on today's stream, Kieren just straight up owned up to it and accepted that they made a mistake and didn't deliver what was promised.
Feels like 5 minutes ago Mod Kieren started. Was nearly *10 years ago*
Now that the set is an ugly miniscule upgrade over proselyte it has basically no use at all. It's a pretty big waste of content.
And because it now exists in the game and is so hard to get, we'll likely not get a new prayer armour that is actually attainable for most (I'll wait and see how much difference the wave 3 changes make) or linked to the Temple Knights questline (which was my preference) for a long time.
I'm more sad about a new quest after the slug menace taking forever than not having a new set tbh. Not every quest needs an upgrade esp with how much new stuff keeps coming into the game. You could give an upgrade over the holy mace though, which could fit the continuation of the questline and be quite useful. Tldr where's cold war 2 jagex
We need to see the squirrels! There were a few comments in Cold War about "I bet you're working for the squirrels", and now I *need* a squirrel city. I bet there could be cool woodcutting content.
This is what gets me the most. They shoot themselves on the foot by doing shit like this and it keeps happening again and again. Slight upgrade to proselyte armour, something that can be acquired within 1-2 days of playing? Drop from endgame content (I know they're changing it to wave 3 which is more reasonable, but it's still weird). Similarly, upgrade to a magic weapon with literally +1 max hit and healing effect? Endgame raid. Upgrade to the dragon defender, that provides +2 strength and a bit of accuracy? Endgame raid. The only gloves in the game that provide range strength come from nex, at a +2 bonus. They have put a lot of items out without putting much thought into "where do we go from here though?". I hope the item rebalance fixes a lot of this, but I'm probably huffing Copium.
It's a blame-shifting way of saying "we know what we presented is what you expected"
I tried explaining this to my ex-wife. She may have gotten attached to the idea of me not fucking the au pair, and I understand that was the information I presented during the marriage ceremony, but she needs to understand that things can change between the initial pitch and now.
How's the couch?
Personally I think it's an immature and offensive way to communicate with the community. It shows a real lack of respect or understanding of where everyone is coming from. I don't think the person that wrote it needs to be publicly identified or put on blast, but internally I think they should get some retraining for that bullshit.
I feel like throughout the whole development of varlamore someone on the dev team has taken a stance of "fuck you we're the devs we do what we want and the players will have to accept it", a lot of feedback has fallen on deaf ears (or the point of some given feedback completely misunderstood).
Is that what this is? Because I recall voting on a strong prayer bonus set that would put it along the lines of ranged proselyte. I was having a case of wishful thinking that it just hadn’t been released yet.
$900 million valuation, and can’t afford QA from a half decent publicist
preach.
You will receive content you didn't vote for and you WILL be gaslit when you rightfully complain about it. Signed, The Old School Runescape Team
[удалено]
It's 100% true that players genuinely don't know what they want half the time. It's also 100% true that openly telling them that is bad PR.
[удалено]
New World was on a crash course to getting shut down 6 months after launch, tbh at this point I’m just impressed it’s still around- it’s done just well enough to keep itself alive this long.
The other half of that is that players generally do know what they don't want, and give better feedback about problems than solutions. The polling system isn't perfect, but it helps catch a lot of problems before they make it into the game.
There's a video of someone (I want to say Bill Hader?) giving writing advice and he says that when you show your work to people and they have criticisms or negative feedback you should listen to them and understand why they don't like it, but as soon as they start saying what they think would be better you just ignore them completely. I think that logic applies here: the playerbase is right when they're telling Jagex they messed up, but their solutions are almost never actually good solutions.
That's the main reason polls are important. People think it's for us to tell Jagex what we want, but the opposite is true - polls are there for Jagex to tell us what THEY want, and for us to tell them which ideas are bad and need to be either reworked or thrown out.
Back in the day when things got voted no this could be true but now a days unless it’s pvp it’s passing with flying colors
The WoW community still hasn't gotten over "You think you do, but you don't" with regards to Classic. Of course, it was popular on release because of the initial hype, similar to OSRS, but because they re-tread all the same ground, they basically just played the exact same game back in terms of content release and the numbers have stagnated since, until they came out with Season of Discovery which became their version of Leagues and that's been more popular. In the end, the dev was probably right, OSRS wouldn't still be here if it wasn't iterated on past that initial release, and while there were people that wanted the original, they were looking through rose-tinted glasses. I know I wouldn't want to play a pure 2007 OSRS as long as I've played what we have now.
Seconded. Pure 2007 OSRS would be fun for a day or a week (and I say this as someone who \*loved\* RuneScape back in 2007). But once the nostalgia wears off, I'd quickly realize that a game that never updates just is not any fun at all, and that 2007 RuneScape had a \*lot\* of flaws. It's why I find it difficult to take people seriously who say that 'Old School isn't Old School anymore' and get angry about it. They're right that Old School has changed, but that change is what still makes it be relevant today. If nothing had ever changed, we as a community would probably have gotten tired of it after the first month except for a few outliers. As for the newspost, Jagex has a history of terrible PR posts. It annoys me at times, but all in all the company is decent and seems to care about the players, so I've learned to see it as the price of playing OSRS
Yeah, pre-update OSRS died really quickly.
It is for better or worse the way straight in a concrete wall if you only do what players ask for, but you also can't ignore everything. Everything needs to be filtered out which can be a very difficult task (not related to the issue at hand but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in)
Link to this video? I could use some extra drama on my afternoon
In general, it's true, players don't know what they want It's when you take that to mean "always ignore what they say" that devs get in trouble
Man I put 1300 hours into that game before I realized it was going into the shitter and dipped
It was such a cool game, in theory. Beautiful, too. I wish it succeeded.
Man I loved it, they just had an absolutely terrible way to handle endgame. Crank up the HP and damage like crazy and put up artificial daily caps. They had a great early and mid game and should've left it there tbh, and left room for future updates to expand the game and build an enjoyable endgame. Wars were really neat though. I had a lot of fun manning siege weapons and repairing shit, you could feel really impactful.
I did mostly skilling just because I loved the audio for that game
Same. That launch month of new world was the most fun I've ever had gaming. Literally the only time in my entire life I've gamed all the way to sunrise, got breakfast and a shower, and started the grind again.
How? The game became more and more unfinished as you progressed to the end game. Literally the half drawn horse meme. You should have noticed it was fucked atleast 20-30 hrs in. Gear Progression fucked. Resource balance fucked. Resource gathering fucked. Economy fucked (deflation). Company wars fucked. Amount of content fucked. Late stage gameplay loops fucked. Armor slots fucked. Expansions making old content irrelevant. Server pops fucked. I'm also not saying you couldn't enjoy it for 1300 hrs but it should have been apparent that the end game was not fleshed out... At all. Even though they patched up and fixed up some of the things I mentioned, it was never a complete fix but rather a bandaid, and at the end of the day there was very little content to be had which is a huge sin for a MMO.
Pretty common tbh, WoW devs said the same about classic.
I haven't followed anything about that game, but I have found that true working in the software product world. People will tell you what they want, you'll spend time working on it, deliver it as stated, and then they'll say it wasn't what they wanted. That's why there are jobs whose purpose is to actually decide what should be worked on instead of only listening to customers. That being said, if you say you are delivering something, decide it isn't what people want, and then when they get it they complain it isn't what they want, you should probably own that and listen.
To be fair there's like 4 people still playing NW and they're mostly just war logging. It's not like they're getting anyone back catering to them.
The "We'll make clearer which areas are subject to change" is a really interesting way to come out of this and decide on. Basically we can vote on something we really like and once it has the poll stamp, Jagex can then change it as much as they want because "Subject to change".
The real problem Jagex faces, if they admit that such drastic changes post-poll are a problem, is that they will always, from this point forward, have a swath of players unhappy that any miniscule change from a poll wasn't repolled. They'll essentially be locking themselves into only doing exactly what was polled, or else face *some* semblance of backlash. And since this community is so damn bloodthirsty, any backlash can quickly turn into *a lot* of backlash over the tiniest things. So they're taking an approach of "we can do whatever we want as long as it's still somewhat similar to what was polled" because they legitimately do need *some* freedom to iterate. But we'll see if the playerbase is sated with the compromise of "we'll just clearly mark what we think might change."
I can't speak for the playerbase, but I'd be happy if they communicated the things they've wound up changing instead of sneaking changes in hoping no-one notices (because let's face it, this community always does and it's always a bigger shitstorm that way).
dont they do blog posts after polls to talk about how implementation is and changes as they go?
I’ve been on one of those software development teams and I regret to inform you all that this right here is, in fact, *exactly* what happens. It’s not a conspiracy
Thats jagex trademarked actions right there to the t man dont infringe on it 😤
YOU VILL PAY ZEE COLOSSEUM FEE, YOU VILL NOT GET ZEE DROP
Ye.. why poll something if you just completely deviate from it in the development process. Like sure, they should get some creative freedom sometimes, 100%. But this has nothing to do with that. They just completely changed some very well defined parameters without even informing the playerbase, let alone repolling it.
Sorry for asking, but what's the context of this post?
The sun armor from the coliseum. It was supposed to be something you can get early. Just dipping your toes in so people were expecting wave 1 to 4 would drop it. Jagex decided 6+ before you had any chance at it
So jagex straight up lied? Yeah, I can see why people are mad now. If jagex continues this type of behaviour, there'll be massive trust issues between the company and player base.
ok im glad im not the only one who was put off when they read that part haha
It's that passive-aggressive language that never slips past. It hits in your soul, even if your eyes don't register it right away.
That’s what gets me. Like, credit where credit is due, they fixed their fuck-up. But this isn’t the first (or second, or third, etc) time that their own imprecise language in blogs has caused issues for them after players (rightly) expected one thing and got another. So why doesn’t it ever just come with an apology? Why is it passive aggressive every time? Yeah players expected to get what was in the poll blog lol
"look, we get that when we said "steak made of cow" some of you expected beef, you ungrateful little shits, so we're grudgingly replacing this cow shape we cut out of a piece of fish"
[Yep.](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/14vu1kj/an_update_on_jagex_accounts/jreo5uj/)
I definitely get that stuff can and does change between initial concept, prototyping, and implementation. This is true of all developmental fields, not just games. That being said... This was polled content, and when the votes mismatch the outcome, it has a tremendous negative impact on many of us who felt like we were making an informed decision. The information changed behind the scenes, so that decision has been uprooted from its context and, in this new context, very well could have changed. Sometimes stuff \*has\* to change during the design and development phase, but if it does, don't just write the players out of that process partway though and leave us to pick up the pieces afterwards.
This is where I'm at. I'm not annoyed that things changed. Polling, at the end of the day, is just a really interesting way to drive development, and has its benefits and drawbacks. If something had to change, then let it change. I don't think polling should be some contract. But if we are going to have polling, it should either A) Be followed to a reasonable degree or B) Communicated that it is being deviated from and explain why. Neither of those were followed here, and instead the players were made to look unreasonable for expecting the content to match what they voted for. Like I said, at the end of the day, this is Jagex's game and polling is just a way they've agreed with the community to drive development. But if you are going to commit to that system, acting like this is just... poor community management.
>I don't think polling should be some contract. But it is in the case with Jagex and OSRS. They promised long ago to poll major changes and additions to the game due to the games history with players leaving when they don't like the direction the game went in. Polling something and it passing and then Jagex just doing something different is a big violation of trust.
They’re honestly so petty at times lol. Just give us the change so we can say thanks for giving us what we voted for. no need for comments like this
>We realize you're frustrated because we acted deliberately - and we completely understand where you're coming from - but we can't always get what we want and there's no use in crying about it lol Jagexed
Honestly wouldve preferred that phrasing
> fuck you Jaredx
Honestly, I admit this was really bad wording on my part, and I can only apologise for that. As a lot of comments pointed out, Kieren did a much better job summing this up in yesterday's stream than I did within this post. What I was trying to get across was that we made a mistake and I wanted to showcase how we're trying to be better - none of that is on you as players and I'm genuinely sorry if that's how it came across. As always I really do appreciate your feedback, especially when it's something that doesn't sit right with you all, regarding either content or communication.
It's really refreshing to see developers who are this genuine. Thanks for listening to feedback and being involved with the community, even when the reception is negative. We appreciate you a lot!
We do, and while Sarnies wording was indeed incredibly unfortunate and definitely added fuel to the fire (including for me), Sarnie's response is not the root problem here. The problem is the fact that the collective trust in the polling system got shafted once again. It's becoming more and more common that delivered content has significant deviations from what was polled (and passed). At what point do I need to start voting tactically? Keeping in mind that while I might like this specific update, they might slightly change it in ways that I would have voted differently for. That's what I'm genuinely annoyed about. Personally I was fine with lowering the poll threshold, allowing the devs some more breathing room to implant their own vision for the game in new updates, without having to appeal to almost everyone at the same time. But I'm slowly starting to come around from that, especially if this is what that empowerment leads to. It kind of feels like a 'Give a finger, they'll take your entire hand'-situation.
Polls need a built in approval system, this would get us away from having to raise a stink in order to get stupid shit fixed when it eventually happens. Jagex is bad at delivering final products with no needs for tweaks, cosmetics like the first proposals for masori or the quiver attest to that. What they’re good at is gathering feedback and fixing mistakes, like they’ve done here, like they did with masori, and how they’re planning on tweaking quiver. It works and it leaves things better off overall compared to a reasonable expectation of a company that only does one passover on content with no feedback, but it could use a better system. This refinement process needs something more efficient than “bad = complain on twitter/reddit” because voting no on the poll doesn’t send the correct message, it just jeopardizes the content altogether.
Replying at 1am as well. I'll glaze the mods forever
The community and developer relationship with old school RuneScape is lightning in a bottle. Only game that has recently come close is the classic wow team with season of discovery
Appreciate the reply. I think, combined with the thread about the issue yesterday, players were just left concerned about the "state" of polling, and the wording here sort of heightened that concern because it avoided mentioning the actual issue, at least for me. Good to get things cleared up.
I wish you had instead said, "Wave 7 + is ez, skill issues tbh"
I can't imagine how stressful your job must be. You use a little poor wording and suddenly hundreds of people are commenting how you're an evil trickster. I get anxious when sending an email to just one person at work lol
We really take the jmods for granted a lot of the time, don't we
jagex admit they fucked up and just fix it challenge difficulty: impossible
They blundered this time but lets give credit where credit is due. They often admit they fucked up and fix things.
Yeah, well, they gotta keep admitting it.
And they do.
> They blundered this time but lets give credit where credit is due Ok, give them credit for gaslighting the player base then because that's what they're doing.
Would be cool if they just didnt fumble almost every update.
Its classic Jagex to be reluctant and condescending when they are called on their mistakes so aggressively that they actually have to fix them. They absolutely refuse to admit fault in situations like this and its honestly a bit insulting. This line stuck out to me as well, gave a slight sour taste in the mouth.
>Its classic Jagex to be reluctant and condescending when they are called on their mistakes Its a side effect of being British, I assume.
I would rather their British side said "you got us cunts. Our bad"
They sent that side to a penal colony 200 years ago
Struth cob
Fair dinkum
Fuckin oath
Most humans I know are like this, including me oftentimes. Still doesn’t excuse it though - we all need to be called out sometimes.
Oh for sure its everyone, I wasn't trying to imply the British are the only ones who do this, was just making a joke.
Where is this sentiment coming from?? They admit to mistakes all the time. Even too much in my opinion. I'm so tired of this sub acting like the oldshool team malicious when there one of the most transparent commutative studio that I can think of.
It's coming from the fucking screenshot bro. They didn't say "we pitched and polled it this way, but changed it during development and didn't tell you. Whoops, sorry" They said "Although things can change between an initial pitch, later newsposts and sometimes even before a release, it's completely understandable that the information we present is what you will attach to. We'll make it much clearer throughout development which areas are subject to change and highlight those that should not - we've already got some thoughts on how to do this!" The poll question that was voted on, with 79.8% yes "Would you be comfortable with the addition of the best-in-slot Prayer version of Sunfire Fanatic armour, as described in the blog?" The blog mentioned : "The Sunfire Fanatic Armour was our attempt at keeping things simple. Even though the later waves (and eventual endless runs) of the Colosseum scale up to test even seasoned PvMers, we still want there to be something in it for people looking to get their feet wet with some earlier waves." And this post shows how abysmal rates are at the lowest waves available, which are not available for people "looking to get their feet wet", as that would not be wave 6. Wave 3 where they are now? Yea, sure. https://old.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1bupbw7/colosseum_accumulative_rates_for_items/?ref=share&ref_source=link So, with all of that laid out, the sentiment is coming from them saying we "attached to what was presented". No, we fucking **voted** on what was presented in a blog and subsequent poll. We got attached to what we **voted** on. What the fuck. They are literally lying and trying to delude us into thinking we're not basing our feelings on facts that were not respected by their content developers. Straight up, all they had to say was "thanks to your feedback, we realize that in our initial blog and poll, we stated it would be for getting your feet wet, which wave 6+ clearly isn't the right feeling across the community. Our mistake, we'll try to communicate more of those details ahead of release as best we can." Instead, they're weaseling with "well, things change in development, despite polls, sorry we didn't tell you." Instead of even admitting they messed up. They literally don't take blame in the apology in the screenshot, they just say "sorry you felt that way. It changed cause that happens as we develop. Sorry you feel differently" which is a bullshit non-apology.
This is their way of saying that no matter what is polled they reserve the right to do something completely different because they can. So unless they come back and state the changes to already polled content, and put it up for another poll, then they may as well just get rid of polls entirely.
"It's understandable that the information we present is what you will attach to." Yeah, The stuff that you say will go in the game is, generally, what I feel like *I should expect will go in the game*. Considering the history of actually, you know, *telling us* when significant changes are made, I'd like to think you'd tell us if something does end up changing from the initial pitch.
So is this Jagex’s way of saying that we should just vote ‘no’ on everything because we can’t trust their word?
Yes
“You guys believed what we told you in our official communications, that was dumb.”
I somewhat get it because the polling system is somewhat at odds with the creative process, but that doesn't really apply when you suddenly decide that +2 prayer bonus should be a rare pvm drop and we're all wrong lol
I mean, they can be as creative as they want, but once they decide on something enough to poll it, they should stick to it. If they decide they want to make further changes, poll it again.
I am tired of being gaslit at home. Now I have to be gaslit by the devs if my favorite mmo
People that remember how the Fang was polled: https://preview.redd.it/r8e3vuzmvisc1.jpeg?width=1427&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=671ef781d49ba53d35b55acdd36543b0ceb58147
This was my thought exactly!!
Wasn't playing at the time, you got a run down on that?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/199pepd/satire\_the\_past\_24\_hours\_summarized\_fang\_nerf/](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/199pepd/satire_the_past_24_hours_summarized_fang_nerf/)
I don't even get who the people defending these drop rates are that I've been arguing with. I don't understand what type of player would think that generating 1 full set of Sunfire Fanatic should be nearly as rare as pet, or even be rare at all with the size of the community that is even realistically capable of farming this content. It sure ain't the people actually playing Colosseum. I'm convinced that they just want to shit on ironmen without realizing they're also shitting on the 99% of mains that are also unable to use the new items as there'd be no sets in the game. This ain't just "it is okay for some things to be rare," it makes absolutely no sense for *these items in particular* to be so rare, especially given the way they were proposed and voted in. IF this is endgame content designed to be repeatable and highly profitable, AND the prayer armor is mid-game at best armor, THEN it should follow that the endgame players farming the content should be absolutely pumping out this Sunfire Armor??
Gaslighting tf out of us lmao
What is this referencing? What set?
Sunfire Fanatic Armour from the Colosseum When it was polled, it was positioned as relatively accessible upgrade over Proselyte that was meant to be an accessible consolation prize for mid-level players who couldn’t get very far in the colosseum. When they revealed drop mechanics today, it’s only available from Wave 6 onwards, and is twice as rare as echo crystals. Thus people saying this isn’t what we voted for. From the November 3rd poll blog: “Since players having the option to duck out in earlier waves, we've aimed for a spread of rewards that span a range of players, meaning those who are just dipping their toes into the Colosseum might be able to make it out with some Sunfire Dust or a piece of Sunfire Fanatic Armour, but players chasing the Glaive of Ralos will want to be consistently going all the way!” “Sunfire Fanatic Armour is a Prayer-focused set that we expect will be reasonably easy to obtain even at the lower waves”
Thank you for the very comprehensive reply! 🙂
Why bother with polls?
Its the exact same thing with the quiver only holding one ammo type. And that impacts me much much more I hate it.
Just wait for the new skill :p
I’ve been full steam ahead (pardon the pun) since the initial vote for it but the past few updates (as in content not the sailing update blogs)we’ve had i’m now dreading what we get
Yeah, in theory it was a nice idea. However you can quickly see its just an attention grab to get new players for a month or 2, I can see the online adds now "come experience osrs's first new skill in 10 years!!!" Lol
Honestly, anyone who didn’t predict Sailing to end up being an enormous clusterfuck was living in meme-dream land. Sailing will be an absolute nightmare on release, make no mistake. But it got voted through because “haha sailing meme funni!”
It didn’t get voted in as a meme. Idk how people are still trying to say this. Argue that it won’t live up to what they proposed, but people voted on it because they thought the proposal sounded good.
it did only make it by barely 2% as well. It's entirely plausible to argue that it only got as much consideration as it did because it's been a 17 year long meme.
I’d argue it originally being a meme hurt it a lot. People were citing that as the reason they didn’t like it.
People say it because it's true. Sailing's pitch was very much so "it could be anything. Maybe even a good skill!" A quick look at the threads back then also make it abundantly clear that a lot of the community legitimately thought that it was going to be Sea of Thieves crossed with TOB crossed with Slayer except even cooler because it's on water.
I voted no for this reason and this reason alone. I simply do not trust Jagex to release a new skill as it was polled or without making "integrity" changes along the way. The end product is going to end up nothing like what was discussed. XP rates, content, activities will all be endlessly discussed and there will be a poll on these and they will change them by the time the skill is actually released. Upon release, it will take weeks or even months for them to fix everything. They will say, "oopsie!" and then go, "we're listening to your feedback!!!" But it won't change the fact that they can't seem to release major content without having to go back and make 15,000 changes because players are upset that they didn't get what was polled.
I’m fine with little tweaks being made, it’ll be a huge new system after all so things are bound to be slightly broken here and there. It’s the blatant disregard to poll results we’re getting recently that are my problem
Well, maybe it is just that more of the experienced devs are working on Sailing... That kinda might be the case, at least partially. Like I think Husky and Elena are some of the ones on Sailing.
it’s going to come out so different in game vs the fantasies we all give it on paper.
It’s not like it’s anything new, I still remember when muspah was heavily implied to be faster than vorkath in that blog lol
Gaslight Gatekeep Girlboss
Just admit you fucked up without dancing around it. You polled it, you changed it, you're sorry, fix it. Then everyone is happy
I'm barely following the shit going on but from everything I know that's some major gaslighting. Who wrote this? And who then approved it?
This is why they won't poll anything in the future. Introducing 3 attack styles for range and elemental weaknesses isn't polled now as it is a "balance change". This community is so cucked.
I hate how fucking patronizing these blogs are written
I blame forestry
This is an extremely “RS3 thing” to write. I think they need to be careful with stuff like this as we have seen what decisions like this and then justification afterwards leads to on the other side of the fence.
LOL you believed my lies. -every narcissist ever...
This comes across as a "sense of pride and accomplishment" PR attempt. Thanks EA.
They really thought they did something there
I can get what they are trying to say, but yah, that is pretty bad phrasing on their part. Like it is understandable that some things might change over development, but if they poll specifics or even implied specifics, then we shouldn't expect those to change. For example, the Moon armors were polled with stats. Changing the stats from what was polled is not just expected balancing; if you didn't want players to expect a specific stats you should have just said "low defence bonuses" and not have given us specific numbers. And if they do really need to change them for balancing reasons or such, they should at least tell us before release instead of continuing to use the same pre-poll stats like nothing changed... So yah, that is definitely on them for not being clear what is subject to change. Also, I'd argue that things like drop rates and stats shouldn't be subject to change over development. Like if they are willing to change an item's stats and/or rarity between poll and release, then what are we even voting on at that point? Like if we vote on a WIP concept prayer that gives 25% str from WGS, it shouldn't be able to change into 30% Str from a rare scroll drop just because it was a WIP concept.
Hey Jagex, how about you don't poll it unless you intend to put it in the game the same way you polled it. If you want to keep implementing stuff we didn't vote on, or you want to change stuff AFTER, we have voted on it. Then I'll just vote with my wallet and cancle my 3 subs. I did it with RS3, and I'll do it again.
What’s this about?
Gaslighting 101
What an absolute shitshow. Blatently disregard what was polled, only to come around to basically say; "Well you guys just don't get it". Like what are they doing? It's like they're doing a speed run of 'lose player support any%'...
Why does it feel like Jagex doesn't want to admit fault on this one? The way this reads is like an angry child forced to change something when they're in the wrong. Listen, if Jagex is going to release things that aren't how they were provided in the poll blogs that we based our votes on then there needs to be a 4th voting option that just says "I vote yes to exactly what was described in the blog and if it's different then what was provided I vote no/skip"
has major "you just don't see our vision" vibes, whenever they respond like this
Don't stop being upset until they fix their mistakes guys. Seriously, don't stop. Otherwise they'll learn they can get away with it and continue eroding the playerbase's trust.
##### Bark bark! I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread: **JagexSarnie** - [Honestly, I admit this was really bad wording...](/r/2007scape/comments/1bvv9zj/no_jagex_we_didnt_get_attached_to_something_you/ky3i7y6/?context=3) ^(**Last edited by bot: 04/06/2024 12:13:08**) --- ^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.) ^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
Bruh even North Koreans get what was on the poll
This is horrendous management and communication. Players "attach" to what is in the polls because that is what is being voted on to be added to the game. This is how this whole polling system is supposed to work. A lot of companies really wouldn't accept this kind of botched delivery especially when it is repeated behavior.
What a massive L post.
0 days since last braindead statement from jagex
I'm getting real sick of the "no we know best" ARROGANCE from whoever is in charge of writing this shit. Pull your fucking head in.
I smell a new copy and pasta
Just make the set buyable with sunfire shards or available at any wave
Jagex gaslighting their community
Why is a video game company trying to gaslight me?
I'll just sit here remembering I voted "no" on a new skill when they inevitably fumble sailing.
This is akin to Mojang promising to rework birch forests, only to cancel that plan and cite “concept art is not a commitment” lololol
Yeah, really weird to be all snarky about being called out for blatantly disregarding the proposed and polled content. Why are they blaming players for saying "hey, this wasn't what we voted yes to"
Software developers simply can't admit when they've made a mistake, it's always the user's fault.
What is this take lmao. Software developers implement whatever requirements they get. In this case, it should have come directly from the poll results, but there was probably some game designer, product owner or technical director with different ideas.
Common Jagex L
Pure corporate bullshit, and we can expect even more of this nonsense as the sale finalizes.
[удалено]
I’m ready for oldschool oldschool RuneScape
Lmao good one jagex but ok, if you don't want me to trust the words you put out, I won't.
whoever wrote this should be barred from community posts. the condescending nature is not productive and tasteless
Lmfao the gaslighting is real
What the fuck is going on. Where do I find the news post?
The Varlamore Tweaks & Droprates post
I've been gone for a bit and just came back, what is this regarding?
They’ve made it so rare in the hopes that it retains a shred of value because they were devoid of ideas to give it actual good uniques. Still can’t believe the prayer armour even passed at all.
What was polled, and what did it change too?
At this point rework colleseum in part 2. It's a clear miss as they rushed it. The honeymoon phase of the new content is over now
Yeah that was a super weird thing to say. They cant take the L.
What is this in reference to? I see people saying they released something that’s different to how it was presented in the poll. What is it? I saw someone else mention a prayer set
Yeah. Best case scenario it was just a dev typing a lotta shit and got mindlessly snippy.
I'm out of the loop here, what's this in reference to?
This post today & server issues for wow classics. What a good day to be a nerd rage farmer
As someone who tries to avoid the newspost to have "suprise content" for myself, i disagree with jagex's stance. I trust our player base to work with jagex to help create the content we play. Much like creativy freedoms in a writers vs producers scenario, we've agreed to a standard between the devs and mods and our community. I dont want to be disrespectful in saying, jagex should honor the effective agreement we have in regards to the poll system
the worst part about this whole sunfire fiasco is that it let the fact that not a single one of the moons sets actually matched the stats that were polled slip under the radar, especially bloodmoon. But they were also (almost) all buffs, so I guess it's fine, right... (and listen, I'm not going to die on the hill that the spear getting +20 slash / crush accuracy is ending the world, but it's the principle of the thing y'know?)
It's really not that big a deal
When 302 fally riot for this one?
They're going through the steps of accountability.