I’d wager that a lot of people arguing against haven’t even over 2x dry on something. No one has fun going dry and it is absolutely a motivation killer to even log on. And yeah, it is a part of the game. But it doesn’t have to be, and I think the real question sitting in between the arguments is should it be a part of the game?
I think something that is interesting as well is the mmo market isn’t really expanding its new player base. Newer generations of gamers don’t seem to like mmo’s. So I think osrs really needs to take care of its current player base. Does osrs really want to lose it’s most dedicated players who are putting in the time to go 2x dry and over at a singular boss? I don’t think so.
Another thing to consider as well is that the player base is getting older on average because not a lot of younger players are joining the game. So as the player base gets older on average they will have less and less time to play since you get more and more responsibilities as you get older. So there will come a time when the average player can’t keep up with all the 40+ hour grinds in the game, and may lose interest.
Easily the reason why I unsubbed and only come back for a month here and there to test out updates. Can only get jerked off so many times by end-game dry streaks before I decide I can get CBT elsewhere for cheaper.
Whether it's OSRS or any other game, 2X dry is when I take an indefinite break from the grind. I wish devs would look into dynamic loot tables where the drop chance gets marginally higher for every roll you miss.
I don't even need a guaranteed pity. Just weight the dice in my favor the longer I commit to a grind.
All excellent points. Imo the old school team does a pretty solid job of taking care of the player base, especially compared to the other big mmos. However, you're spot on that the average player age continues to increase as less new blood enters the game. As much as maxed players want end game content, updates like Scurrius will have the most net positive impact on the game.
It's not fair nor accurate to stereotype an entire generation, but I think it's safe to assume that younger players, who've grown up in the age of ubiquitous high speed internet and social media, are more accustomed to games/media providing quick dopamine hits vs progression-based dopamine. That's not an ideal demographic for an mmo, but one jagex has to get a foothold in if the game is to last another 10+ years.
Coincidentally, as existing players continue to grow up and get real jobs that prevent them from pouring disgusting amounts of time into the game, they too start to look for games/media that offer a quicker dopamine fix. As a former maxed Rs3 player, I think Rs3's progression/pace is much too fast, even without mtx, but some sort of middle ground is required if the game wants to maintain a healthy player base long term. I think social afk skilling methods like shooting stars/forestry will be important to keeping busy, aging players on the hook and some sort of bad luck mitigation system will be necessary for continuing to grow the player base. Regardless, I'm cautiously optimistic that osrs will be just fine, so long as the devs hold the course and rs3 continues to shelter the game from mtx. The last 10+ years have been rough for anyone looking for a gaming experience free of mtx and imo that's a huge selling point of osrs, especially to younger folks who grew up during the transition to AAA games meaning quality to meaning over monetized and devoid of creativity or charm.
What kind of drives me crazy about this whole discussion and the 'part of the game' mindset is the simple fact that not everything that is part of the game is.. y'know, good. Stuff can be part of the game, and still have major room for improvement. OSRS is not a perfect game and absolutely no game is.
I at the very least struggle to imagine how going 3x or more dry on anything is enriching my gameplay in any way, or how having mitigation to make that less likely negatively impacts my experience, let alone the experience of other players.
Feels like the main arguments I see against it are either pretending that the only people who want it are people who want to the drop rate to be at 100% the moment they're 1kc above rate (which no one's actually arguing for), and people who either don't understand, or don't care that even if it doesn't suck for them, it does for other people.
And that the argument of "is how the game is" is weirdly placed anyway, because *the game wasn't like this*. OSRS released with a 1/512 slayer drop as the rarest "endgame BiS". So the idea of 1/5k spec weapons and 900 hour bosses and core progression peices like BowFa being 1/400 from 6-10 minute pieces of content (so like 70 hours for average players, and 3x rate making that more like a 200+ hour grind) didn't exist.
These are all "new scape" things added to the game, but twitter elitists are acting like we're changing the games identity by discussing the idea that "hey maybe 1 person getting screwed over and going 6x rate on a core Pvm item.. isn't needed?"
I think people who want grindscape are chasing the feeling we had as kids playing runescape. The grind to get into the mining guild felt enormous to ten year old me, like literally it took FOREVER.
But now, its a piece of pish, because im not a dumb kid with zero attention span and limited computer time.
So to keep that feeling of achievement for doing something that took forever, the game literally has to make you grind thing ***for ever***.
It felt like forever because you either only played for an hour or two a day and/or you got distracted doing stuff like castle wars. None of us really sat there and purely grinded something out.
Yeah that's a good point. And I think those can and are achieved with rare grinds like pet grinds. Which I don't think need dry protection as they arent a functional item. They're just a rare cosmetic.
So we can leave pets as the long RNG grind that you could go mega dry on. And just make sure to protect core progression items for the first time getting it. Mains would feel next to no impact outside of maybe being motivated to do that content 1% more due to no fear of dry on the first drop (clog focused mains)
Tbh I never thought about it that way, but feel like there’s still got to be at least something keeping mega rares, mega rare. I think the biggest wtf? From me is how long it takes phosanis nightmare to finish.
I think raids can't be touched by anti dry because group content has farrrr too many factors at play to determine if you are dry. And wouldn't want their to be an economy around creating or paying for "dry on megarare" accounts to benefit the chance of one. It should be reserved for solo content only.
Nightmare is absurd. Even with their changes, it's such a long grind for gear unlocks that are at best sidegrades, at current essentially worthless.
I agree with your take on raids. I think TOA did a great job with purple rareness. I'd like to see that moving forward. I got so demotivated with chambers after going dry on top of the low purple rate and then getting a whatever item. I much rather have more common cheaper purples than super rare 200m purples
Don’t forget the “you don’t need a *insert item here* to do *content*” group!
I know I don’t NEED a DWH/BP/BOWFA or whatever. I fuckin want it and it makes life easier.
Yeh the idea of "it's not required" is a tad bit silly. I always suggest irons who feel they're in CG prison to just go and do the content they say Bowfa unlocks for them. But it absolutely makes sense to get a BowFa first, and bosses like corp are entirely locked behind DWH and such to be killed at all realistically.
That argument and the "just de iron" argument are the worst ones to me. Because this isn't Ironmen going "make DWH 1/256" or something. It's Ironmen saying "hey maybe letting someone go 20k+ shamans without a DWH doesn't need to be a thing" and mains saying that idea will *ruin* the game for them.
This exactly. I "Chose to be an ironman" before these droprates were commonplace. Imagine if you signed up for a basket weaving class, and halfway through the semester they added genital mutilation to the curriculum. Would you be saying "well, it's my fault. After all I *chose* to sign up for basket weaving"? Of course not. I still prefer ironman, but that doesn't mean I have to like when the game doesn't respect my limited play time.
What an awfully descriptive comparison hahaha.
But yeah to me it doesn't matter what you sign up for or "how the game always was". We can and should always discuss things and how they could be improved and the pros and cons of doing so.
I remember getting 70 mining in F2p back in the day **just from coal mining** in the mining guild and IRL friends called me insane vs now where having a 70 in a non combat skill is basic skillset because of quests lol
yeah, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what bad luck mitigation actually is with people it's not, kill boss 100 times get every 1/100 drop it's more like every kill after 150th you start trimming drop rate down, maybe by 200th kill that 1/100 is now 1/75. Then when you get the drop, or *a drop* depending on boss and what it is, the BLM resets to zero.
Its a lot like the arguments about marginal tax rates where for some reason people think going up a bracket means you make less money. Very weird how its hard for people to get their heads round.
I've literally done the math on paper for my FIL before and he still refuses to believe this isn't true.
I went to school for this, I have a masters degree in this, he still doesn't believe me.
I work with a guy making $300k+ a year who made a remark about trying to avoid going up a tax bracket that signaled the misunderstanding you’re describing. I had to just bite my tongue and refrain from trying to correct him.
Absolutely, I see many comments like "I went 3xdry here and I'm against it"
like bro... 3xdry is not at all the issue, the luck mitigation would only marginally even come in to play at 3x dry
its the 4, 5, or fuck it 8-10xdry that are the issue
Agreed.
Another thing that annoys me is people acting like irons are the only ones affected by going dry/overly long grinds.
Uhm. Hey. Mains like getting drops too. Either to use them or to sell them. It'd be kinda cool if any new changes also applied to us. I've been playing since 06, and I'm totally in favor of dry protection, and I DON'T even think it should be restricted to just the first drop, but all drops (But would need some special systems in place to avoid abuse, of course).
Yeah, going dry sucks and will sap motivation out of mains plenty too. Sure you're still getting the other drops which will supplement your income some, but on some bosses that only really covers supply costs.
For those that do have more worthwhile interim drops it only soothes the feeling of "I could have gotten this drop worth 10's/100's of millions several times over now if I was on rate" so much.
Grinding may be core to runescape but there really is a point where if you're doing the same thing for so long with no real results that it stops being fun. And ultimately fun *is* what we're here for, right?
Beyond that just... idk. I saw a ton of "Love it or leave it" esque replies and I wish people realized that we *do* love this game. I've been playing since early 07 myself, it's been a major part of my recreation through my whole life. It's *because* I love it that I want to see it improve.
> I saw a ton of "Love it or leave it" esque replies and I wish people realized that we do love this game
The crux of the problem isnt even that tbh. They act like there is even an alternate game to replace runescape. Solo bosses? Progression isnt being wiped every new armour. New content isnt just temporary until the new area rolls around? Could easily be played as a singleplayer rpg? You could pick any of those aspects and list a bunch more but you aint finding any of those in any other game, let alone all of them together. This is why i call Runescape ( both versions really ) stupidly unique because its just actual stupid how hard other games seem to try to not "copy" one of these aspects.
What bothers me is the whole “you chose to restrict your account”. Okay lol, it still sucks going dry and people are just trying to relate about that with other people who play the game and it’s like weird to me how it becomes this argument
OSRS players love to gatekeep. Go into any HLC mains chat like molgoatkirby/aaty and it’s lul Ironman bad. Go into a HLC Ironmans chat and it’s LOL MAINS COULDNT BE ME. Crabs in the bucket mentality and gatekeeping is a staple in the community. It doesn’t help that these people lack any sort of nuance and understanding and have to take hardline stances even when it can help the game in the end. There’s a discussion to be had about bad luck mitigation but many people won’t engage in the discussion in good faith
A significant portion of this playerbase has the social skills of a rotten potato. Social skills include empathy. This is not surprising in the slightest.
Also sometimes mains just like getting the items from the intended source rather than just min-maxing and farming profitable bosses to buy them.
Personally I like to do this where possible and bad luck mitigation would encourage more people to try new content.
I think the idea isn't to be snarky but a genuine thing. Normally if osrs was without irons this discussion wouldn't be had unless you just flat out got bad drops most of the time. However, you'd make enough go to buy what you wanted so every kill is probably facilitating the goal of getting said item if you don't get it yourself.
This is mostly an iron problem because going dry is the worst feeling because there is no other way of obtaining the item. When irons make irons they kinda accept that if I don't get the drop in a game heavily pressed on rng of shit like 1 in 5000 they won't have it.
It's a meme to pick on irons about wanting to basically be a main without the ability to buy things.
>It's pathetic how much of the community doesn't want to see the players have fun.
It is quite ironic to see this comment when you are talking about pures... A type of account that has its roots in denying others from having fun
Yeah I feel like there are two camps
1) they don’t understand the proposal properly, assuming that going over drop rate will basically guarantee you the drop, which is completely incorrect
2) they’re NEETs who have nothing else but osrs in their life and any change that makes the game even slightly less grindy challenges their entire existence
It’s even stupider when you realize that bad luck protection, if applied to accounts over 3x dry, would really only change the drops for the unluckiest 5% of people. It implies their items are valuable because you can be so unlucky and have an unhealthy disproportionate grind for the item. If you win a slot machine your joy comes from the reward being good and rare, not because some sorry fuck got so unlucky he won absolutely nothing
Especially when the item is crucial and PvM is balanced around it
Usually non-ironmen that never touched content trying to gatekeep in some way stuff from people actually playing the game to get it.
When I say I don't want the DWH to be 1/5000, I'm not saying I should get it in the next 10 kc, but at 19k Kc currently, I proved I deserved that crap more than one time.
non-ironmen though drolling while attempting to read this: "yoU ChoSe To LIMit YoursELF", yeah, ya'll didn't even get to chose, you were born limited.
Welcome to reality where even a marginal and very reasonable argument is something people will make a big deal out of. Some of these people act like people are asking for 10x drop rates even though that dry protection that was proposed was just a 5% increase and this was started on a boss that doesnt even drop BiS stuff
Or there is the other extreme one which i call "white knights" which is as you mention: just because its in the game it doesnt mean its well implemented. Case in point: Wintertodt. Would people actually do WT if it didnt have tome of fire and provided less resources? Because the actual "boss" is not something i would call fun. You dont see people advocating for content like KBD, kq or Mole either, almost as if they suck, thus proving that the game is a far cry from being consistent in design let alone anywhere near perfect.
Truck load of areas are just quest locations occupying giant landmasses, non scimitar/maces dominating most combat encounters at the early game, 99 smithing for rune, etc. Just because it would be very hard to fix these and Jagex chooses not to do so doesnt mean its perfect as is
The irony is that probably bad luck mitigation would only be for solo only content, meaning that it wouldn't even help irons dry on tbow.
Not that I wouldn't still support it, but it would leave the biggest drop as still a source of frustration.
If mitigation tracked raid points vs KCs it could still work, although it’d have interesting effects like people wanting to do more team content with people that are dry, and people that are dry probably preferring to do more solo or FFA.
> although it’d have interesting effects like people wanting to do more team content with people that are dry, and people that are dry probably preferring to do more solo or FFA.
This is why it'd probably be a bad idea for non-solo content.
I do wonder if that would happen, because surely it would barely effect anything? Not many people at all go 3-4x dry, so the pool of people you can go with would be very small if they are the only people you want to raid with right?
The whole dry people preferring to do solo is why I thought it wouldn't work.
I don't want to make a change where people doing team raids prefer to have teammates dry on bow so that they're more likely to get a big split or anything.
Probably a solution like:
luck mitigation doesn't affect chance of purple, or even chance of purple in your name
BUT if you roll the purple, it will come into play in terms of what item you receive
so why would anyone ever run team raids then? If you haven’t received a tbow yet you’d just run solos until you do lol then go back to running with a team.
Based on the original guy’s proposal you have to reach 2x droprate before you start getting the benefit of bad luck mitigation. So that’d be 2k solos you’d need to grind out, and go dry on tbow, before you really have any benefit. I think the significant time investment for that makes it not really that hugely game changing.
Well yeah, but 1/100 players need to do 4500 (2000 hours) cox for it, and I hope you are one of them. Because then you can see that those dry streaks on mega rares makes 0 sense/enjoyment for anyone. Most other items work fine
Its sort of insane that the logic of "oh its BIS it should be impossible".
Like Im sorry... Is 1000 hours too little? Thats 125 days of coming home from work, and doing nothing but grind cox 8 hours a day.
They should poll bad luck mitigation. And anyone who votes no on it has a flag on their account that makes them go 10x rate on twisted bow.
If people don't have empathy, teach them what it feels like by force. If they claim that they're perfectly okay with someone else going 10x rate on rare items, they should put their money where their mouth is and accept that without pause.
Nah, I understand that someone spending 10,000 hours (5 years of a full time job) to get a twisted bow is a realistic situation in the current game and that it should not be. I would never vote to keep it that way and anyone who thinks that that is reasonable should face that situation themselves because they are okay with other people being put in it.
I am in no rush mate, it will come when it comes. Who the hells rushing to complete this game? I’d rather it still be prestigious if/when I eventually get it. Reeks of “everyone gets a prize”
Yeah the first 1000 is for sure, maybe even more if you vary teams/solos/cms, but frankly I don’t think you can expect any single piece of content in a game to be fun for more than 1000 hours
Literally the entire point of playing an iron is to grind out heavy content with scuffed gear. Sometimes you’ll get lucky and be set running around at chambers with karils/dhides and a tbow, other times you’re dry on a scythe after 1200 tobs.
The reward isn’t the point, if irons aren’t enjoying the grind for items then nothing will satisfy them. What do you do after you have bis gear? What can you do with the bis gear that you can’t do on a main? You effectively lose the consequences of the restrictions, except for having to use shitty ammo/no sweets/limited blood fury.
You exhibit the nuance of a granite rock, but i'll try to explain anyways:
I immensely enjoy solo cox, its probably my favorite piece of content in osrs, and i have 700kc, which is when i got my Tbow. Thats quite lucky, seeing as the droprate is 1/1000 ish. I could for sure have gone on and done at least many hundred, if not over 1k more kc.
What i could not have done, and what i dont think anyone should have to do, is do 7000 kc, which is equivalent to 2 years in a full time job, to get 1 item in a game. 1/1000 irons have to do this, putting them way past rank 1 on the iron hiscores. and effectivelt locking them out of the drop forever. I don't think this random arbitrary rng restriction is necessary or does any good for the game.
"What do you do after you have bis gear? What can you do with the bis gear that you can’t do on a main?"
This is a stupid argument. If the journey is the whole point why not just 10x all the drop rates so everyone gets to experience everything like the people who go insanely dry?
Because seeing improvement and results from your journey is also part of the enjoyment.
But if you want to be guaranteed the rarest and strongest items in the game why are you playing an iron? It actually makrs no sense to me.
I'm playing an iron and I have never assumed i would ever get a mega rare. Just because jagex put it in the game doesn't mean you have to get it.
Where exactly did I say that irons deserved free tbows?
I pointed out that they wouldn't get them with bad luck mitigation because it doesn't really work with team content, and that it was ironic, and that I'd still take bad luck mitigation regardless.
But they won't, because that's not how RNG works. Some people are lucky almost everywhere, others are lucky nowhere.
A clanmate got 10 pets in a couple months of play. All spooned. I needed almost 6 years to reach 10 pets, with literally 5x more efficient hours played. They went on to spoon 5 more pets and only ever went dry on 2.
I've yet to get my first spoon, 3 years later (15/15 pets obtained over their drop rate), meanwhile they just got another one last week (1 KC Sol).
There's such a thing as "too much RNG". You shouldn't be able to have a 6x difference in drops/time for distributions going on for a literal decade.
Me and your friend had a similar experience lol I had 1 pet by 2k total and by 2.1k I had 8. I didn't suddenly start doing PVM after 2k total I had already had thousands of boss KC. Just happened to get really lucky in a short period. It's funny how you can be seemingly dry as hell and then a short time later you could be absurdly spooned, just the way RNG goes.
Me and your friend had a similar experience lol I had 1 pet by 2k total and by 2.1k I had 8. I didn't suddenly start doing PVM after 2k total I had already had thousands of boss KC. Just happened to get really lucky in a short period. It's funny how you can be seemingly dry as hell and then a short time later you could be absurdly spooned, just the way RNG goes.
Call it a core part of the game but bad luck is the main reason I take multi-year long breaks from this game. I have never felt happy from getting a drop after going dry, its more of a feeling of annoyed relief. "finally i get to stop doing this shitty content".
It'd never happen but i'd love an ironman mode where all of the drop rates were dynamic or guaranteed. Even if the items were "soulbound" so people couldnt fuck with the economy.
Same. Never have any joy left when i go extremely dry. My 1200KC bowfa was just a relief. The hapiness was long gone. I also took 2 6 month breaks during that grind.
> I have never felt happy from getting a drop after going dry, its more of a feeling of annoyed relief. "finally i get to stop doing this shitty content".
Exactly. It's also how I know everyone who says "just keep grinding" or "rng will balance out!" are full of shit. If you were *generally* unlucky, you'd know how fucking draining it is. It's just relief when you finally get to the end and it only makes you want to stop playing because you know the next grind will likely be the same.
I have permanently quit osrs for nearly 2 years on my iron because of bad lucky streaks, maxed with 1500+ raids and nearly 7500 boss kills across the board. It’s just not a good system at end game without trade or complete degeneracy… shame because with a system like this osrs would be the main game I play as there would be hope instead of literally thinking things like well a tbow is 1/32 purples vs my avg raid time = this much time of my life (always too much) without even being a sure thing…
I would be so happy with an iron tagged item that is deleted on deiron and if equipped can’t be taken into the wildy/pvp worlds. If it came with hope for actually getting some of the items, basically required to complete the remaining parts of the game for me. EG speed trial combat diaries
That's precisely why I'll never main an iron, lol. If I go dry on a main I can just leave and do different content and come back when I'm in the mood, if I'm dry on a meaningful item on Iron I'd be more or less stuck.
on the one hand I agree that getting shafted could cause someone to quit, but I also think getting bis too quickly can cause people to quit. Take raiding in WoW for example.. you might raid twice a week for 3 months and have all of your BiS. People tend to play less and less until new a new raid & more powerful gear comes out, which is not a sustainable pattern for osrs/powercreep. Coming back to OSRS from a break feels like picking up right where you left off. Coming back to WoW feels like starting over.
that being said, I do think some rates should be adjusted to be more reasonable
Add bad luck mitigation, it doesn’t have to be cushy, can be on a long haul ass dry streak. But don’t let that 1% get totally shafted. It’s only cool till it happens to you.
I don't think people understand that having dry protection at even 3x dry is not going to impact a huge chunk of the playerbase. Reducing rates steadily over time would have no significant impact on anything.
It's like half of the playerbase just wants to see the small portion of dry people continue to suffer.
I think the core issue is that the identity of Old School RuneScape is tied to it being a grindy/RNG based game.
The reason reactions are so visceral to incorporating bad luck mechanics is that this (realistically) challenges the core identity of why many of us choose to play this game.
I see both sides. Going dry sucks and it’s demotivating to get stuck doing a piece of content over and over again. On the flip side, it can feel demoralizing to see an “RNG” achievement be diminished due to bad luck mechanics. That inherently feels bad when it ties back to the core identity of playing the “grindiest” game.
I’m not married to either side, but I just wanted to contribute thoughts to the discussion: changes like these challenge the core identity of the game.
>The reason reactions are so visceral to incorporating bad luck mechanics is that this (realistically) challenges the core identity of why many of us choose to play this game.
I get it, but like, drop rates are already fairly grindy to reach. 400 cg kc for a pet or 5k kc for a dwh is already quite a grind. I just don't see how spending a hundred hours on something just to wind up exactly where you were had you done nothing at all really makes sense. If someone spends the 1200 hours or whatever at pnm, they ***fucking should*** have all the drops.
The way I see it: OSRS is a grindy game, which means if you are willing to grind, you should get stuff. You can't say it's a grindy game and then be completely OK with some people grinding and getting jackshit over extreme periods of time for no reason.
If you get significantly spooned -- good for you! Your reward is whatever drops you got early. You don't ***also*** need to see others go signicantly dry to feel like you got rewarded in a special way (and if you do, that's called [sadistic personality disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder)).
If you go very dry, you should see your odds improve until you get the drop, because improved odds means a sense of progression, which largely prevents the feelings of hopelessness you get upon sinking a significant portion of time getting nothing
That's it.
>The way I see it: OSRS is a grindy game, which means if you are willing to grind, you should get stuff. You can't say it's a grindy game and then be completely OK with some people grinding and getting jackshit over extreme periods of time for no reason.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
> The reason reactions are so visceral to incorporating bad luck mechanics is that this (realistically) challenges the core identity of why many of us choose to play this game.
The reason reactions are so visceral is a combination of...
1. The vast majority of this player base having zero functional understanding of statistics, so they come in with a premade opinion that they're ready to defend without properly realizing what it means;
2. Most people refuse to change their minds and the general abrasiveness of internet discourse doesn't help, often entrenching them in their views further.
It's literally the same story everywhere in the world, on most subjects.
I don't know if it's masochism, but a part of me in a weird way likes the fact that if I go super dry on certain items, I might genuinely never get them. I'm on 55 purples with no shadow, which doesn't break any dryness records of course. But like, there's a genuine chance that I will never own a shadow kind of makes it more thrilling to click that treasure room entrance at the end of a TOA. Even if I'm on 55, 110, 220, or 440 total purples, it's a matter of if I get a shadow, rather than a matter of when. And should I be lucky enough to get it one day, I feel like the moment would be dampened if my effective shadow rate was like 1/50 instead of the standard 1/270 ish in my lvl400s.
Maybe it's a twisted mindset, because of course it's not really fair for a player to spend 3000 hours in one raid without getting the best item. I just weirdly it's... fine? to genuinely never receive a specific item.
I agree with this view. Copypasting my comment from another response.
There's a reason why OSRS is one of the biggest MMOs and has been for awhile now. Part of that reason is the grindiness, because it's absent from almost every other mmo. Lately a bunch of whiny redditors want to change that for basically every rare drop. Even cosmetics. It will fundamentally change a key aspect of why this game is so popular.
And as for the argument that making things easier to get and making the game easier attracts new players...well yeah that works out so well for all the other spoonfed WoW clone MMOs that try to be attractive to the lowest common denominator right?
Seriously, there are majorly upvoted posts that says "My friends have all tried the game and quit shortly after and a big reason is the run energy system." Yeah changing it will maybe keep those players around longer. But it will begin bleeding off players that keep this game at the top of the charts. Players that stick around because they pushed through the grind.
Stop pandering to players who will move on to another game in weeks or months. Stick with what's made the game iconic, long lasting and a top mmo.
> There's a reason why OSRS is one of the biggest MMOs and has been for awhile now. Part of that reason is the grindiness, because it's absent from almost every other mmo. Lately a bunch of whiny redditors want to change that for basically every rare drop. Even cosmetics. It will fundamentally change a key aspect of why this game is so popular.
Certified bullshit. Not only do you fundamentally not understand the effect of bad luck mitigation as proposed in the last few days (we're talking about making the game ~1-5% faster overall, and only for people who grind drops nonstop, so acting like it's the end of the game is hilarious), so allow me to copy paste a previous reply:
The way I see it: OSRS is a grindy game, which means if you are willing to grind, you should get stuff. You can't say it's a grindy game and then be completely OK with some people grinding and getting jackshit over extreme periods of time for no reason.
If you get significantly spooned -- good for you! Your reward is whatever drops you got early. You don't ***also*** need to see others go signicantly dry to feel like you got rewarded in a special way (and if you do, that's called [sadistic personality disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder)).
If you go very dry, you should see your odds improve until you get the drop, because improved odds means a sense of progression, which largely prevents the feelings of hopelessness you get upon sinking a significant portion of time getting nothing.
That's it.
Genuinely have seem some dogshit "this will ruin the game" takes from Twitter users who have a boss log that isn't rate for *anything*. Like of course you don't think anti-dry needs to exist you've never been dry.
I don't see any valid reason to defend >3x dry existing in core progression pieces.
Group content like raids its too complex to do, so can't really happen there. And it does *not* need to exist for Pets, as they're purely cosmetic super-rare stuff (similar idea to 3rd age and whatnot).
But items like DWH, Enhanced Crystal, Zulrah drops, DKs rings, DT2 ring upgrades and Virtus etc.
All of that can have anti-dry just to prevent >3x dry. It doesn't change rate. It has like 0.8% average increase to drop rate when distributed correctly. people against it usually just think its some pissweak "if i get to 2x rate just give me the drop". The increase drop rate only starts at 2x rate, so you're already double expected drop rate to have any impact.
Yeah, these people clearly never paid attention in statistics. The average person will never come close to needing dry prevention mechanics. Implementing something to help the odds at 3x dry and up would impact such a small number of players.
You have to have the base collection log plugin option "allow collectionlog connections" on, which sends your data to the site to then compare with others, which isn't in the specific log luck plugin itself. Check for that.
My friends have started to feel bad for me since I am heavily spooned on pets, which is great, but everything that actually upgrades my account? I'm like, 3x dry, so if this were to be voted on just because of my experience, I'd say yes.
The first bucket at 94.
At over 4k, wildy boss kills with about 1.7k of those being big bosses, zero VW pieces (haven't seen anyone get the drop either), and 5 picks.
Approaching 500 larrans chests, only 1 dagonhai piece.
About 400 Rex kills for my first and only bring. Now I'm at 300 KC Prime/Supreme no rings, no daxe, and still only the bring in clog.
I just hit 100 raids on Cox. I haven't seen someone get a purple until about 80 KC. I average about 19k points a raid. Once I get a prayer scroll, I'll start the CG grind.
Kraken, I'm at 2k KC. I just got my 2nd tentacle and still have 1 trident drop.
I'm not at the drop rate, but I'm at 4k Shamans.
There's probably a lot more, but this is what I can easily recall without logging in.
I've gone 11x dry once, 6 approaching 7x dry currently at zulrah for any unique period.
2x dry on purples at cox back to back,
Going dry is not fun. I actually quit the game for a significantly long period of time going dry. The point of Ironman isn't to go dry, it's to avoid the GE and regain the feeling you had as a kid playing the game. Ironman mode is the most fun I've ever had up until endgame grinds (or CG). The 5% drop rate increase is a cap, most drop rates will increase less than that, or for an example, blowpipe would go from 1/512, to 1/500. Not exactly a significant difference, but would prevent people from spending 300h plus on what the majority of players wouldn't experience.
The point of ironman is to make Skilling and resources feel significant,and to make content all feel relevant, not to spend 10x longer than intended on a piece of content because it locks you out of content. imagine if there was a 5% chance upon gaining a level, you just didn't? The game has shifted to become much more pvm heavy in recent years and missing dry protection is a significant gap. We're losing our most dedicated players to this as no one but the dedicated even approach 3x dry. If we want OSRS to stay around, we really need to address this phenomenon
People make ironman because the GE removes the need for 90% of the content in the game and basically all account progression. Prestige is a lie. Nobody gives a shit about your account status.
It's sad when there's enough babies to the point where, in combination with rs3 brigaders, they easily comprise the majority opinion - at least here on reddit
No reason to cater to ironman mode.
You're not meant to clog every single boss.
It's good some items are on the rarer side. If every new item that came into the game was sub 10 hours to get the price would be in the gutter and not worth doing.
Ironmen really just need to accept the fact they will not have BIS unless they sink an ungodly amount of time into this game.
The problem is the difference between the average luck resulting in having to sink an ungodly amount of time into the game to get BIS, and the extremely unlucky who juat straight up won't be able to get BIS in their lifetime.
I do agree that some grinds shouldn't be these huge time sinks that jagex makes them like the imbued heart for example.
But there's no reason we can't look at those drops individually instead of this bandaid fix of across all of the game.
Also you don't NEED bis even on an iron. You can easily do everything in this game without BIS. Just because they're extremely unlucky doesn't mean they deserve an item.
Open to the positives but yet to find/hear a good solution to mitigate the negatives. The current popular suggestions will completely disrupt team content, which doesn’t seem ideal…
There's been a lot of discussion sparked by this post...
[https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets\_talk\_about\_bad\_luck\_mitigation/](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets_talk_about_bad_luck_mitigation/)
Essentially it's a way to mitigate the situation where certain unlucky players go drastically over drop rate (think 5+ times the drop rate) by slowly improving the drop rate of a given rare item (like the DWH) once you reach double the drop rate.
Specifically, this post suggests improving the rate by 100% for each multiple of the drop rate past 2x dry (improved per kill, not just on the multiple milestones). For example, the current DWH drop rate of 1/5000 would stay at 1/5000 until 2x drop rate, where it would slowly improve to 1/2500 at 3x the drop rate, then 1/1666 at 4x, 1/1250 at 5x, etc. until you get the hammer, at which point t;he drop rate would revert to 1/5000.
The target for the suggestion is primarily those super-dry players, as the grand majority of the player base is likely to get a given drop much earlier than that.
It took me over 2k cave horrors for my black mask. Now I'm killing warped creatures for another scepter for my GIM partner, and I'm almost triple the drop rate for it.
Surely doing something 5000 times gets a little bit monotonous, especially when others around you are posting pictures on Reddit of 1kc spoons. I feel like there are a lot of drops that should have the same dry protection vorkath heads have.
“If you haven’t got a boss pet by 5000kc, then I tell you what, here you go bud, I don’t think it’s healthy for you to carry on here, especially when there’s so much more of the game yet to explore.”
Yeah except I still say the grind is part of the game and I've got multiple 10k+ boss kc for pets. Multiple skills at 5x XP for lvl 99 still no pet. It truly is part of the game. Deironing is also part of the game
Going dry is part of the game, you do not have to continue with the content. That being said some content could use bad luck mitigation. I just don't want it to be globally applied.
The concept is fine in of itself, especially when it began. Balancing around it was the final nail in the coffin. I've never seen a larger group of people who play this game and actively hate the grind. Trading exists to nullify long or unfortunate grinds and everyone signing up as an iron knew that they were going to go dry on items. Getting something like shadow was a rare but fantastic reward... but now so many of them feel its a requirement.
Hi highly doubt many people understand the side effects of pitty loot systems. The dt2 visage system is hated by most people because you don't know if you're 0/3, 1/3 or 2/3. You are "building drop chance".
It doesn't matter what system they use for pitty system, the median drop rate must increase (for the same mean). This means player are incentivise to grind the content until they get the drop, and doing a mix of content will become strictly worse.
This would clearly benifits ironmen who grind content for the drop them move on, by making grinds become more consistent, but make the game worse for mains.
Worse for mains would likely be some drop in profit per hour? It's an unrestricted game mode where you can literally do anything.
Ironmen would benefit but would avoid having someone go a whole year not getting Bowfa because they only do 5kc a day.
One of these is absolutely clearly worse than the other. Hoping the response isn't "you choose to restrict yourself" because a handful of people not getting an item for a year yet most getting it in 6 months is awful game design.
Just make the next BiS gear an untradable set and extremely rare so everyone can experience a real grind ;)
Make sure to add spoon protection like DT2 bosses too
2/3 surely!
But then lock it behind another drop to make it even more spoon protection.
Definitely. It should need some sort of unobtainium bars... Just to make double sure you don't spoon it, even if you do
Probably you should de-iron
But actually
:D isint it fun to die over, and over for weeks and not get it :D:D:D wdym no.
Irons should be able to buy from the GE clerk, since he's an npc
They can, but he only sells bonds
wait ironmen can actually buy bonds in game?
Ironmen can buy bonds with gp/money to exchange for membership They cant byy bonds with money and exchange for gp
yep
The argument isn’t that items should be easily attainable, the argument is you shouldn’t go 5x dry on something that is 1/5000
I’d wager that a lot of people arguing against haven’t even over 2x dry on something. No one has fun going dry and it is absolutely a motivation killer to even log on. And yeah, it is a part of the game. But it doesn’t have to be, and I think the real question sitting in between the arguments is should it be a part of the game? I think something that is interesting as well is the mmo market isn’t really expanding its new player base. Newer generations of gamers don’t seem to like mmo’s. So I think osrs really needs to take care of its current player base. Does osrs really want to lose it’s most dedicated players who are putting in the time to go 2x dry and over at a singular boss? I don’t think so. Another thing to consider as well is that the player base is getting older on average because not a lot of younger players are joining the game. So as the player base gets older on average they will have less and less time to play since you get more and more responsibilities as you get older. So there will come a time when the average player can’t keep up with all the 40+ hour grinds in the game, and may lose interest.
Easily the reason why I unsubbed and only come back for a month here and there to test out updates. Can only get jerked off so many times by end-game dry streaks before I decide I can get CBT elsewhere for cheaper.
>No one has fun going dry and it is absolutely a motivation killer Being dry sure is a motivation killer for my boyfriend :c
Whether it's OSRS or any other game, 2X dry is when I take an indefinite break from the grind. I wish devs would look into dynamic loot tables where the drop chance gets marginally higher for every roll you miss. I don't even need a guaranteed pity. Just weight the dice in my favor the longer I commit to a grind.
I agree. After drop rate even something as small as a +.01% chance would feel good on something you're killing potentially 1000's of times
All excellent points. Imo the old school team does a pretty solid job of taking care of the player base, especially compared to the other big mmos. However, you're spot on that the average player age continues to increase as less new blood enters the game. As much as maxed players want end game content, updates like Scurrius will have the most net positive impact on the game. It's not fair nor accurate to stereotype an entire generation, but I think it's safe to assume that younger players, who've grown up in the age of ubiquitous high speed internet and social media, are more accustomed to games/media providing quick dopamine hits vs progression-based dopamine. That's not an ideal demographic for an mmo, but one jagex has to get a foothold in if the game is to last another 10+ years. Coincidentally, as existing players continue to grow up and get real jobs that prevent them from pouring disgusting amounts of time into the game, they too start to look for games/media that offer a quicker dopamine fix. As a former maxed Rs3 player, I think Rs3's progression/pace is much too fast, even without mtx, but some sort of middle ground is required if the game wants to maintain a healthy player base long term. I think social afk skilling methods like shooting stars/forestry will be important to keeping busy, aging players on the hook and some sort of bad luck mitigation system will be necessary for continuing to grow the player base. Regardless, I'm cautiously optimistic that osrs will be just fine, so long as the devs hold the course and rs3 continues to shelter the game from mtx. The last 10+ years have been rough for anyone looking for a gaming experience free of mtx and imo that's a huge selling point of osrs, especially to younger folks who grew up during the transition to AAA games meaning quality to meaning over monetized and devoid of creativity or charm.
Drop tables should never be made for bots, or humans emulating botlike behavior.
What kind of drives me crazy about this whole discussion and the 'part of the game' mindset is the simple fact that not everything that is part of the game is.. y'know, good. Stuff can be part of the game, and still have major room for improvement. OSRS is not a perfect game and absolutely no game is. I at the very least struggle to imagine how going 3x or more dry on anything is enriching my gameplay in any way, or how having mitigation to make that less likely negatively impacts my experience, let alone the experience of other players. Feels like the main arguments I see against it are either pretending that the only people who want it are people who want to the drop rate to be at 100% the moment they're 1kc above rate (which no one's actually arguing for), and people who either don't understand, or don't care that even if it doesn't suck for them, it does for other people.
Going dry is certainly enriching my reddit experience
And that the argument of "is how the game is" is weirdly placed anyway, because *the game wasn't like this*. OSRS released with a 1/512 slayer drop as the rarest "endgame BiS". So the idea of 1/5k spec weapons and 900 hour bosses and core progression peices like BowFa being 1/400 from 6-10 minute pieces of content (so like 70 hours for average players, and 3x rate making that more like a 200+ hour grind) didn't exist. These are all "new scape" things added to the game, but twitter elitists are acting like we're changing the games identity by discussing the idea that "hey maybe 1 person getting screwed over and going 6x rate on a core Pvm item.. isn't needed?"
I think people who want grindscape are chasing the feeling we had as kids playing runescape. The grind to get into the mining guild felt enormous to ten year old me, like literally it took FOREVER. But now, its a piece of pish, because im not a dumb kid with zero attention span and limited computer time. So to keep that feeling of achievement for doing something that took forever, the game literally has to make you grind thing ***for ever***.
It felt like forever because you either only played for an hour or two a day and/or you got distracted doing stuff like castle wars. None of us really sat there and purely grinded something out.
me, collecting invens of coal at fally mines, going over the varrock west bank and spaming "selling coal 50ea". #bizznizz man
Like 1 invent of 28, walk over to varrock, sell 28 coal, then walk back to the coal?
nah, like 3 invens of coal (that was my attention span) and then varrock
I remember trying to get 99 cooking back in the day and giving up because I couldn't do it for more than like 20 minutes at a time
Yeah that's a good point. And I think those can and are achieved with rare grinds like pet grinds. Which I don't think need dry protection as they arent a functional item. They're just a rare cosmetic. So we can leave pets as the long RNG grind that you could go mega dry on. And just make sure to protect core progression items for the first time getting it. Mains would feel next to no impact outside of maybe being motivated to do that content 1% more due to no fear of dry on the first drop (clog focused mains)
Tbh I never thought about it that way, but feel like there’s still got to be at least something keeping mega rares, mega rare. I think the biggest wtf? From me is how long it takes phosanis nightmare to finish.
I think raids can't be touched by anti dry because group content has farrrr too many factors at play to determine if you are dry. And wouldn't want their to be an economy around creating or paying for "dry on megarare" accounts to benefit the chance of one. It should be reserved for solo content only. Nightmare is absurd. Even with their changes, it's such a long grind for gear unlocks that are at best sidegrades, at current essentially worthless.
I agree with your take on raids. I think TOA did a great job with purple rareness. I'd like to see that moving forward. I got so demotivated with chambers after going dry on top of the low purple rate and then getting a whatever item. I much rather have more common cheaper purples than super rare 200m purples
Yeh 100+ raid dry streaks on cox can hurttttt
Don’t forget the “you don’t need a *insert item here* to do *content*” group! I know I don’t NEED a DWH/BP/BOWFA or whatever. I fuckin want it and it makes life easier.
Yeh the idea of "it's not required" is a tad bit silly. I always suggest irons who feel they're in CG prison to just go and do the content they say Bowfa unlocks for them. But it absolutely makes sense to get a BowFa first, and bosses like corp are entirely locked behind DWH and such to be killed at all realistically. That argument and the "just de iron" argument are the worst ones to me. Because this isn't Ironmen going "make DWH 1/256" or something. It's Ironmen saying "hey maybe letting someone go 20k+ shamans without a DWH doesn't need to be a thing" and mains saying that idea will *ruin* the game for them.
This exactly. I "Chose to be an ironman" before these droprates were commonplace. Imagine if you signed up for a basket weaving class, and halfway through the semester they added genital mutilation to the curriculum. Would you be saying "well, it's my fault. After all I *chose* to sign up for basket weaving"? Of course not. I still prefer ironman, but that doesn't mean I have to like when the game doesn't respect my limited play time.
What an awfully descriptive comparison hahaha. But yeah to me it doesn't matter what you sign up for or "how the game always was". We can and should always discuss things and how they could be improved and the pros and cons of doing so.
Quality, overlooked comment
I remember getting 70 mining in F2p back in the day **just from coal mining** in the mining guild and IRL friends called me insane vs now where having a 70 in a non combat skill is basic skillset because of quests lol
yeah, I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what bad luck mitigation actually is with people it's not, kill boss 100 times get every 1/100 drop it's more like every kill after 150th you start trimming drop rate down, maybe by 200th kill that 1/100 is now 1/75. Then when you get the drop, or *a drop* depending on boss and what it is, the BLM resets to zero.
Its a lot like the arguments about marginal tax rates where for some reason people think going up a bracket means you make less money. Very weird how its hard for people to get their heads round.
This makes me laugh everytime I hear it hey
I've literally done the math on paper for my FIL before and he still refuses to believe this isn't true. I went to school for this, I have a masters degree in this, he still doesn't believe me.
Well maybe if you had a PhD in it, then he'd believe you
I work with a guy making $300k+ a year who made a remark about trying to avoid going up a tax bracket that signaled the misunderstanding you’re describing. I had to just bite my tongue and refrain from trying to correct him.
Absolutely, I see many comments like "I went 3xdry here and I'm against it" like bro... 3xdry is not at all the issue, the luck mitigation would only marginally even come in to play at 3x dry its the 4, 5, or fuck it 8-10xdry that are the issue
Agreed. Another thing that annoys me is people acting like irons are the only ones affected by going dry/overly long grinds. Uhm. Hey. Mains like getting drops too. Either to use them or to sell them. It'd be kinda cool if any new changes also applied to us. I've been playing since 06, and I'm totally in favor of dry protection, and I DON'T even think it should be restricted to just the first drop, but all drops (But would need some special systems in place to avoid abuse, of course).
Yeah, going dry sucks and will sap motivation out of mains plenty too. Sure you're still getting the other drops which will supplement your income some, but on some bosses that only really covers supply costs. For those that do have more worthwhile interim drops it only soothes the feeling of "I could have gotten this drop worth 10's/100's of millions several times over now if I was on rate" so much. Grinding may be core to runescape but there really is a point where if you're doing the same thing for so long with no real results that it stops being fun. And ultimately fun *is* what we're here for, right? Beyond that just... idk. I saw a ton of "Love it or leave it" esque replies and I wish people realized that we *do* love this game. I've been playing since early 07 myself, it's been a major part of my recreation through my whole life. It's *because* I love it that I want to see it improve.
> I saw a ton of "Love it or leave it" esque replies and I wish people realized that we do love this game The crux of the problem isnt even that tbh. They act like there is even an alternate game to replace runescape. Solo bosses? Progression isnt being wiped every new armour. New content isnt just temporary until the new area rolls around? Could easily be played as a singleplayer rpg? You could pick any of those aspects and list a bunch more but you aint finding any of those in any other game, let alone all of them together. This is why i call Runescape ( both versions really ) stupidly unique because its just actual stupid how hard other games seem to try to not "copy" one of these aspects.
What bothers me is the whole “you chose to restrict your account”. Okay lol, it still sucks going dry and people are just trying to relate about that with other people who play the game and it’s like weird to me how it becomes this argument
OSRS players love to gatekeep. Go into any HLC mains chat like molgoatkirby/aaty and it’s lul Ironman bad. Go into a HLC Ironmans chat and it’s LOL MAINS COULDNT BE ME. Crabs in the bucket mentality and gatekeeping is a staple in the community. It doesn’t help that these people lack any sort of nuance and understanding and have to take hardline stances even when it can help the game in the end. There’s a discussion to be had about bad luck mitigation but many people won’t engage in the discussion in good faith
A significant portion of this playerbase has the social skills of a rotten potato. Social skills include empathy. This is not surprising in the slightest.
Also sometimes mains just like getting the items from the intended source rather than just min-maxing and farming profitable bosses to buy them. Personally I like to do this where possible and bad luck mitigation would encourage more people to try new content.
I think the idea isn't to be snarky but a genuine thing. Normally if osrs was without irons this discussion wouldn't be had unless you just flat out got bad drops most of the time. However, you'd make enough go to buy what you wanted so every kill is probably facilitating the goal of getting said item if you don't get it yourself. This is mostly an iron problem because going dry is the worst feeling because there is no other way of obtaining the item. When irons make irons they kinda accept that if I don't get the drop in a game heavily pressed on rng of shit like 1 in 5000 they won't have it. It's a meme to pick on irons about wanting to basically be a main without the ability to buy things.
See: every pure thread/discussion/poll ever. It's pathetic how much of the community doesn't want to see the players have fun.
>It's pathetic how much of the community doesn't want to see the players have fun. It is quite ironic to see this comment when you are talking about pures... A type of account that has its roots in denying others from having fun
Yeah I feel like there are two camps 1) they don’t understand the proposal properly, assuming that going over drop rate will basically guarantee you the drop, which is completely incorrect 2) they’re NEETs who have nothing else but osrs in their life and any change that makes the game even slightly less grindy challenges their entire existence
It’s even stupider when you realize that bad luck protection, if applied to accounts over 3x dry, would really only change the drops for the unluckiest 5% of people. It implies their items are valuable because you can be so unlucky and have an unhealthy disproportionate grind for the item. If you win a slot machine your joy comes from the reward being good and rare, not because some sorry fuck got so unlucky he won absolutely nothing Especially when the item is crucial and PvM is balanced around it
Usually non-ironmen that never touched content trying to gatekeep in some way stuff from people actually playing the game to get it. When I say I don't want the DWH to be 1/5000, I'm not saying I should get it in the next 10 kc, but at 19k Kc currently, I proved I deserved that crap more than one time. non-ironmen though drolling while attempting to read this: "yoU ChoSe To LIMit YoursELF", yeah, ya'll didn't even get to chose, you were born limited.
Dont worry mate youll get it on the next drop
Welcome to reality where even a marginal and very reasonable argument is something people will make a big deal out of. Some of these people act like people are asking for 10x drop rates even though that dry protection that was proposed was just a 5% increase and this was started on a boss that doesnt even drop BiS stuff Or there is the other extreme one which i call "white knights" which is as you mention: just because its in the game it doesnt mean its well implemented. Case in point: Wintertodt. Would people actually do WT if it didnt have tome of fire and provided less resources? Because the actual "boss" is not something i would call fun. You dont see people advocating for content like KBD, kq or Mole either, almost as if they suck, thus proving that the game is a far cry from being consistent in design let alone anywhere near perfect. Truck load of areas are just quest locations occupying giant landmasses, non scimitar/maces dominating most combat encounters at the early game, 99 smithing for rune, etc. Just because it would be very hard to fix these and Jagex chooses not to do so doesnt mean its perfect as is
How manu participation trophies did you receive as a kid?
The irony is that probably bad luck mitigation would only be for solo only content, meaning that it wouldn't even help irons dry on tbow. Not that I wouldn't still support it, but it would leave the biggest drop as still a source of frustration.
If mitigation tracked raid points vs KCs it could still work, although it’d have interesting effects like people wanting to do more team content with people that are dry, and people that are dry probably preferring to do more solo or FFA.
> although it’d have interesting effects like people wanting to do more team content with people that are dry, and people that are dry probably preferring to do more solo or FFA. This is why it'd probably be a bad idea for non-solo content.
I do wonder if that would happen, because surely it would barely effect anything? Not many people at all go 3-4x dry, so the pool of people you can go with would be very small if they are the only people you want to raid with right?
The whole dry people preferring to do solo is why I thought it wouldn't work. I don't want to make a change where people doing team raids prefer to have teammates dry on bow so that they're more likely to get a big split or anything.
Probably a solution like: luck mitigation doesn't affect chance of purple, or even chance of purple in your name BUT if you roll the purple, it will come into play in terms of what item you receive
so why would anyone ever run team raids then? If you haven’t received a tbow yet you’d just run solos until you do lol then go back to running with a team.
Based on the original guy’s proposal you have to reach 2x droprate before you start getting the benefit of bad luck mitigation. So that’d be 2k solos you’d need to grind out, and go dry on tbow, before you really have any benefit. I think the significant time investment for that makes it not really that hugely game changing.
There is a absolutely zero chance that jagex will go and change the drop rates from old raids, nil.
Make it apply for only solo cox‘s kills?
Oh no, the best weapon in the game is hard to get lol. This sub man..
Well yeah, but 1/100 players need to do 4500 (2000 hours) cox for it, and I hope you are one of them. Because then you can see that those dry streaks on mega rares makes 0 sense/enjoyment for anyone. Most other items work fine
Its sort of insane that the logic of "oh its BIS it should be impossible". Like Im sorry... Is 1000 hours too little? Thats 125 days of coming home from work, and doing nothing but grind cox 8 hours a day.
They should poll bad luck mitigation. And anyone who votes no on it has a flag on their account that makes them go 10x rate on twisted bow. If people don't have empathy, teach them what it feels like by force. If they claim that they're perfectly okay with someone else going 10x rate on rare items, they should put their money where their mouth is and accept that without pause.
Yes punish the people who dont agree with you. They totally lack empathy
Nah, I understand that someone spending 10,000 hours (5 years of a full time job) to get a twisted bow is a realistic situation in the current game and that it should not be. I would never vote to keep it that way and anyone who thinks that that is reasonable should face that situation themselves because they are okay with other people being put in it.
You think you have empathy? You want to sabotage someone because they disagree with the changes you wanna make.
I am in no rush mate, it will come when it comes. Who the hells rushing to complete this game? I’d rather it still be prestigious if/when I eventually get it. Reeks of “everyone gets a prize”
Tell me you have less than 1k raids kc without telling me lol
I thought raids was supposed to be the fun content everyone wants to get to? If that’s boring what is left?
Yeah the first 1000 is for sure, maybe even more if you vary teams/solos/cms, but frankly I don’t think you can expect any single piece of content in a game to be fun for more than 1000 hours
Literally the entire point of playing an iron is to grind out heavy content with scuffed gear. Sometimes you’ll get lucky and be set running around at chambers with karils/dhides and a tbow, other times you’re dry on a scythe after 1200 tobs. The reward isn’t the point, if irons aren’t enjoying the grind for items then nothing will satisfy them. What do you do after you have bis gear? What can you do with the bis gear that you can’t do on a main? You effectively lose the consequences of the restrictions, except for having to use shitty ammo/no sweets/limited blood fury.
You exhibit the nuance of a granite rock, but i'll try to explain anyways: I immensely enjoy solo cox, its probably my favorite piece of content in osrs, and i have 700kc, which is when i got my Tbow. Thats quite lucky, seeing as the droprate is 1/1000 ish. I could for sure have gone on and done at least many hundred, if not over 1k more kc. What i could not have done, and what i dont think anyone should have to do, is do 7000 kc, which is equivalent to 2 years in a full time job, to get 1 item in a game. 1/1000 irons have to do this, putting them way past rank 1 on the iron hiscores. and effectivelt locking them out of the drop forever. I don't think this random arbitrary rng restriction is necessary or does any good for the game. "What do you do after you have bis gear? What can you do with the bis gear that you can’t do on a main?" This is a stupid argument. If the journey is the whole point why not just 10x all the drop rates so everyone gets to experience everything like the people who go insanely dry? Because seeing improvement and results from your journey is also part of the enjoyment.
But if you want to be guaranteed the rarest and strongest items in the game why are you playing an iron? It actually makrs no sense to me. I'm playing an iron and I have never assumed i would ever get a mega rare. Just because jagex put it in the game doesn't mean you have to get it.
Where exactly did I say that irons deserved free tbows? I pointed out that they wouldn't get them with bad luck mitigation because it doesn't really work with team content, and that it was ironic, and that I'd still take bad luck mitigation regardless.
First log deserves to go 2k dry for Dust
But they won't, because that's not how RNG works. Some people are lucky almost everywhere, others are lucky nowhere. A clanmate got 10 pets in a couple months of play. All spooned. I needed almost 6 years to reach 10 pets, with literally 5x more efficient hours played. They went on to spoon 5 more pets and only ever went dry on 2. I've yet to get my first spoon, 3 years later (15/15 pets obtained over their drop rate), meanwhile they just got another one last week (1 KC Sol). There's such a thing as "too much RNG". You shouldn't be able to have a 6x difference in drops/time for distributions going on for a literal decade.
Me and your friend had a similar experience lol I had 1 pet by 2k total and by 2.1k I had 8. I didn't suddenly start doing PVM after 2k total I had already had thousands of boss KC. Just happened to get really lucky in a short period. It's funny how you can be seemingly dry as hell and then a short time later you could be absurdly spooned, just the way RNG goes.
Me and your friend had a similar experience lol I had 1 pet by 2k total and by 2.1k I had 8. I didn't suddenly start doing PVM after 2k total I had already had thousands of boss KC. Just happened to get really lucky in a short period. It's funny how you can be seemingly dry as hell and then a short time later you could be absurdly spooned, just the way RNG goes.
Call it a core part of the game but bad luck is the main reason I take multi-year long breaks from this game. I have never felt happy from getting a drop after going dry, its more of a feeling of annoyed relief. "finally i get to stop doing this shitty content". It'd never happen but i'd love an ironman mode where all of the drop rates were dynamic or guaranteed. Even if the items were "soulbound" so people couldnt fuck with the economy.
Same. Never have any joy left when i go extremely dry. My 1200KC bowfa was just a relief. The hapiness was long gone. I also took 2 6 month breaks during that grind.
> I have never felt happy from getting a drop after going dry, its more of a feeling of annoyed relief. "finally i get to stop doing this shitty content". Exactly. It's also how I know everyone who says "just keep grinding" or "rng will balance out!" are full of shit. If you were *generally* unlucky, you'd know how fucking draining it is. It's just relief when you finally get to the end and it only makes you want to stop playing because you know the next grind will likely be the same.
I have permanently quit osrs for nearly 2 years on my iron because of bad lucky streaks, maxed with 1500+ raids and nearly 7500 boss kills across the board. It’s just not a good system at end game without trade or complete degeneracy… shame because with a system like this osrs would be the main game I play as there would be hope instead of literally thinking things like well a tbow is 1/32 purples vs my avg raid time = this much time of my life (always too much) without even being a sure thing… I would be so happy with an iron tagged item that is deleted on deiron and if equipped can’t be taken into the wildy/pvp worlds. If it came with hope for actually getting some of the items, basically required to complete the remaining parts of the game for me. EG speed trial combat diaries
That's precisely why I'll never main an iron, lol. If I go dry on a main I can just leave and do different content and come back when I'm in the mood, if I'm dry on a meaningful item on Iron I'd be more or less stuck.
on the one hand I agree that getting shafted could cause someone to quit, but I also think getting bis too quickly can cause people to quit. Take raiding in WoW for example.. you might raid twice a week for 3 months and have all of your BiS. People tend to play less and less until new a new raid & more powerful gear comes out, which is not a sustainable pattern for osrs/powercreep. Coming back to OSRS from a break feels like picking up right where you left off. Coming back to WoW feels like starting over. that being said, I do think some rates should be adjusted to be more reasonable
Add bad luck mitigation, it doesn’t have to be cushy, can be on a long haul ass dry streak. But don’t let that 1% get totally shafted. It’s only cool till it happens to you.
Surely bottom picture has made enough to buy a tbow at this point.
I wonder how much gp all those KC are worth. Could buy anything in the game.
Just the dhcb is 1b
the elder mauls in today's value is another 1b
U got me excited for a sec I bought a dhcb years ago for about 120m, then stoped playing I thought u meant 1 dhcb was 1b, like they’d gone up in price
Bottom picture was posted by an ironman a few days ago
Unless they're an ironman. No amount of cash can fix an iron dry streak.
[удалено]
“Just deiron” He said the thing! When mains complain about bots, we should just start telling them to stop playing the game.
Mains profit a fuck ton from bots being there, they are the supply of things they don't want to grind.
Mains aren’t easy to hear that
Hahaha just deiron bro the drop luck system isn't broken, you're just weak!
I didn’t even have to look at the user that posted this to know it was you 💀
I don’t even know who you are
Well yeah bots have made items quite cheap
I see they got skillspecs good side...
I don't think people understand that having dry protection at even 3x dry is not going to impact a huge chunk of the playerbase. Reducing rates steadily over time would have no significant impact on anything. It's like half of the playerbase just wants to see the small portion of dry people continue to suffer.
Ding ding ding! I swear some of these people get erections when they say that
This is OSRS. Lots of folks 100% prefer to see people suffer & laugh at them while acting high & mighty. It's a high for them.
Really speaks to some peoples' mindset that you can't possibly disagree with their opinion for any other reason than selfishness
I think the core issue is that the identity of Old School RuneScape is tied to it being a grindy/RNG based game. The reason reactions are so visceral to incorporating bad luck mechanics is that this (realistically) challenges the core identity of why many of us choose to play this game. I see both sides. Going dry sucks and it’s demotivating to get stuck doing a piece of content over and over again. On the flip side, it can feel demoralizing to see an “RNG” achievement be diminished due to bad luck mechanics. That inherently feels bad when it ties back to the core identity of playing the “grindiest” game. I’m not married to either side, but I just wanted to contribute thoughts to the discussion: changes like these challenge the core identity of the game.
>The reason reactions are so visceral to incorporating bad luck mechanics is that this (realistically) challenges the core identity of why many of us choose to play this game. I get it, but like, drop rates are already fairly grindy to reach. 400 cg kc for a pet or 5k kc for a dwh is already quite a grind. I just don't see how spending a hundred hours on something just to wind up exactly where you were had you done nothing at all really makes sense. If someone spends the 1200 hours or whatever at pnm, they ***fucking should*** have all the drops.
The way I see it: OSRS is a grindy game, which means if you are willing to grind, you should get stuff. You can't say it's a grindy game and then be completely OK with some people grinding and getting jackshit over extreme periods of time for no reason. If you get significantly spooned -- good for you! Your reward is whatever drops you got early. You don't ***also*** need to see others go signicantly dry to feel like you got rewarded in a special way (and if you do, that's called [sadistic personality disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder)). If you go very dry, you should see your odds improve until you get the drop, because improved odds means a sense of progression, which largely prevents the feelings of hopelessness you get upon sinking a significant portion of time getting nothing That's it.
>The way I see it: OSRS is a grindy game, which means if you are willing to grind, you should get stuff. You can't say it's a grindy game and then be completely OK with some people grinding and getting jackshit over extreme periods of time for no reason. Couldn't have said it better myself.
> The reason reactions are so visceral to incorporating bad luck mechanics is that this (realistically) challenges the core identity of why many of us choose to play this game. The reason reactions are so visceral is a combination of... 1. The vast majority of this player base having zero functional understanding of statistics, so they come in with a premade opinion that they're ready to defend without properly realizing what it means; 2. Most people refuse to change their minds and the general abrasiveness of internet discourse doesn't help, often entrenching them in their views further. It's literally the same story everywhere in the world, on most subjects.
I don't know if it's masochism, but a part of me in a weird way likes the fact that if I go super dry on certain items, I might genuinely never get them. I'm on 55 purples with no shadow, which doesn't break any dryness records of course. But like, there's a genuine chance that I will never own a shadow kind of makes it more thrilling to click that treasure room entrance at the end of a TOA. Even if I'm on 55, 110, 220, or 440 total purples, it's a matter of if I get a shadow, rather than a matter of when. And should I be lucky enough to get it one day, I feel like the moment would be dampened if my effective shadow rate was like 1/50 instead of the standard 1/270 ish in my lvl400s. Maybe it's a twisted mindset, because of course it's not really fair for a player to spend 3000 hours in one raid without getting the best item. I just weirdly it's... fine? to genuinely never receive a specific item.
I agree with this view. Copypasting my comment from another response. There's a reason why OSRS is one of the biggest MMOs and has been for awhile now. Part of that reason is the grindiness, because it's absent from almost every other mmo. Lately a bunch of whiny redditors want to change that for basically every rare drop. Even cosmetics. It will fundamentally change a key aspect of why this game is so popular. And as for the argument that making things easier to get and making the game easier attracts new players...well yeah that works out so well for all the other spoonfed WoW clone MMOs that try to be attractive to the lowest common denominator right? Seriously, there are majorly upvoted posts that says "My friends have all tried the game and quit shortly after and a big reason is the run energy system." Yeah changing it will maybe keep those players around longer. But it will begin bleeding off players that keep this game at the top of the charts. Players that stick around because they pushed through the grind. Stop pandering to players who will move on to another game in weeks or months. Stick with what's made the game iconic, long lasting and a top mmo.
> There's a reason why OSRS is one of the biggest MMOs and has been for awhile now. Part of that reason is the grindiness, because it's absent from almost every other mmo. Lately a bunch of whiny redditors want to change that for basically every rare drop. Even cosmetics. It will fundamentally change a key aspect of why this game is so popular. Certified bullshit. Not only do you fundamentally not understand the effect of bad luck mitigation as proposed in the last few days (we're talking about making the game ~1-5% faster overall, and only for people who grind drops nonstop, so acting like it's the end of the game is hilarious), so allow me to copy paste a previous reply: The way I see it: OSRS is a grindy game, which means if you are willing to grind, you should get stuff. You can't say it's a grindy game and then be completely OK with some people grinding and getting jackshit over extreme periods of time for no reason. If you get significantly spooned -- good for you! Your reward is whatever drops you got early. You don't ***also*** need to see others go signicantly dry to feel like you got rewarded in a special way (and if you do, that's called [sadistic personality disorder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadistic_personality_disorder)). If you go very dry, you should see your odds improve until you get the drop, because improved odds means a sense of progression, which largely prevents the feelings of hopelessness you get upon sinking a significant portion of time getting nothing. That's it.
Anyone know what plug-in it is that shows the %’s on the col log like that? 💀
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/AevGAJe0bV
It’s insane how much the Kodai insignia looks like a butt plug
Genuinely have seem some dogshit "this will ruin the game" takes from Twitter users who have a boss log that isn't rate for *anything*. Like of course you don't think anti-dry needs to exist you've never been dry. I don't see any valid reason to defend >3x dry existing in core progression pieces. Group content like raids its too complex to do, so can't really happen there. And it does *not* need to exist for Pets, as they're purely cosmetic super-rare stuff (similar idea to 3rd age and whatnot). But items like DWH, Enhanced Crystal, Zulrah drops, DKs rings, DT2 ring upgrades and Virtus etc. All of that can have anti-dry just to prevent >3x dry. It doesn't change rate. It has like 0.8% average increase to drop rate when distributed correctly. people against it usually just think its some pissweak "if i get to 2x rate just give me the drop". The increase drop rate only starts at 2x rate, so you're already double expected drop rate to have any impact.
Yeah, these people clearly never paid attention in statistics. The average person will never come close to needing dry prevention mechanics. Implementing something to help the odds at 3x dry and up would impact such a small number of players.
Literally, like 1 year of playtime in chambers
Why is Lex Luthor commenting on OSRS?
that bottom image has evolved into something truly horrible
How do I make that plugin with percentages work? I’ve got it and turned everything on but still isn’t working?
You have to have the base collection log plugin option "allow collectionlog connections" on, which sends your data to the site to then compare with others, which isn't in the specific log luck plugin itself. Check for that.
Thanks mate, that was it.
How u get those % 🤔
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/AevGAJe0bV
Ty bro
My friends have started to feel bad for me since I am heavily spooned on pets, which is great, but everything that actually upgrades my account? I'm like, 3x dry, so if this were to be voted on just because of my experience, I'd say yes. The first bucket at 94. At over 4k, wildy boss kills with about 1.7k of those being big bosses, zero VW pieces (haven't seen anyone get the drop either), and 5 picks. Approaching 500 larrans chests, only 1 dagonhai piece. About 400 Rex kills for my first and only bring. Now I'm at 300 KC Prime/Supreme no rings, no daxe, and still only the bring in clog. I just hit 100 raids on Cox. I haven't seen someone get a purple until about 80 KC. I average about 19k points a raid. Once I get a prayer scroll, I'll start the CG grind. Kraken, I'm at 2k KC. I just got my 2nd tentacle and still have 1 trident drop. I'm not at the drop rate, but I'm at 4k Shamans. There's probably a lot more, but this is what I can easily recall without logging in.
Just keep grinding lil bros
90+ hours at bandos looking for a hilt. Yeah bad luck mitigation when please
I've gone 11x dry once, 6 approaching 7x dry currently at zulrah for any unique period. 2x dry on purples at cox back to back, Going dry is not fun. I actually quit the game for a significantly long period of time going dry. The point of Ironman isn't to go dry, it's to avoid the GE and regain the feeling you had as a kid playing the game. Ironman mode is the most fun I've ever had up until endgame grinds (or CG). The 5% drop rate increase is a cap, most drop rates will increase less than that, or for an example, blowpipe would go from 1/512, to 1/500. Not exactly a significant difference, but would prevent people from spending 300h plus on what the majority of players wouldn't experience. The point of ironman is to make Skilling and resources feel significant,and to make content all feel relevant, not to spend 10x longer than intended on a piece of content because it locks you out of content. imagine if there was a 5% chance upon gaining a level, you just didn't? The game has shifted to become much more pvm heavy in recent years and missing dry protection is a significant gap. We're losing our most dedicated players to this as no one but the dedicated even approach 3x dry. If we want OSRS to stay around, we really need to address this phenomenon
On the plus side, that's a passive green log.
Makes Ironman for prestige, Cries on Reddit until game is easier, Ironman not fun anymore, Quit.
People make ironman because the GE removes the need for 90% of the content in the game and basically all account progression. Prestige is a lie. Nobody gives a shit about your account status.
It's sad when there's enough babies to the point where, in combination with rs3 brigaders, they easily comprise the majority opinion - at least here on reddit
No reason to cater to ironman mode. You're not meant to clog every single boss. It's good some items are on the rarer side. If every new item that came into the game was sub 10 hours to get the price would be in the gutter and not worth doing. Ironmen really just need to accept the fact they will not have BIS unless they sink an ungodly amount of time into this game.
Sad you’re getting downvoted, games core identity is changing but nobody cares because they get a bowfa from it
The problem is the difference between the average luck resulting in having to sink an ungodly amount of time into the game to get BIS, and the extremely unlucky who juat straight up won't be able to get BIS in their lifetime.
I do agree that some grinds shouldn't be these huge time sinks that jagex makes them like the imbued heart for example. But there's no reason we can't look at those drops individually instead of this bandaid fix of across all of the game. Also you don't NEED bis even on an iron. You can easily do everything in this game without BIS. Just because they're extremely unlucky doesn't mean they deserve an item.
So? That’s the game mode! Why should an iron have the same gear as a main?
Let's all bot this game since mains can just play irons instead.
But ironmen bot anyway?
i went over 25k for my dwh and im still against bad luck mitigation
This whole thing is being caused by the maxed efficiency mindset, there’s no need to focus solely on any grind until it’s done.
Open to the positives but yet to find/hear a good solution to mitigate the negatives. The current popular suggestions will completely disrupt team content, which doesn’t seem ideal…
you would most likely never interact with the system if it was added, it’s essentially a safety net the chances of being that dry are so unlikely
These fucking post-covid tourists holy shit
Rarity is the reason why the game gives us dopamine
Noob here, what they talking about exactly?
There's been a lot of discussion sparked by this post... [https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets\_talk\_about\_bad\_luck\_mitigation/](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets_talk_about_bad_luck_mitigation/) Essentially it's a way to mitigate the situation where certain unlucky players go drastically over drop rate (think 5+ times the drop rate) by slowly improving the drop rate of a given rare item (like the DWH) once you reach double the drop rate. Specifically, this post suggests improving the rate by 100% for each multiple of the drop rate past 2x dry (improved per kill, not just on the multiple milestones). For example, the current DWH drop rate of 1/5000 would stay at 1/5000 until 2x drop rate, where it would slowly improve to 1/2500 at 3x the drop rate, then 1/1666 at 4x, 1/1250 at 5x, etc. until you get the hammer, at which point t;he drop rate would revert to 1/5000. The target for the suggestion is primarily those super-dry players, as the grand majority of the player base is likely to get a given drop much earlier than that.
It took me over 2k cave horrors for my black mask. Now I'm killing warped creatures for another scepter for my GIM partner, and I'm almost triple the drop rate for it.
Can I have 1 kodai insignia? I'll pray for you to RNG God.
could also make the same meme with the people that play this game for a living and people who actually work 8-5 trying to get a drop
What plugin is that showing the %?
4 pets is wild without bow. Ouch.
What plugin does bottom pic have?
https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/uvBCDffF45
Who knows tbow next kc 🤡
For reference anyone know what the bottom picture is called?
just get the drop, lmao
Surely doing something 5000 times gets a little bit monotonous, especially when others around you are posting pictures on Reddit of 1kc spoons. I feel like there are a lot of drops that should have the same dry protection vorkath heads have. “If you haven’t got a boss pet by 5000kc, then I tell you what, here you go bud, I don’t think it’s healthy for you to carry on here, especially when there’s so much more of the game yet to explore.”
Yeah except I still say the grind is part of the game and I've got multiple 10k+ boss kc for pets. Multiple skills at 5x XP for lvl 99 still no pet. It truly is part of the game. Deironing is also part of the game
Going dry is part of the game, you do not have to continue with the content. That being said some content could use bad luck mitigation. I just don't want it to be globally applied.
This shit is why I fully believe that adding an official ironman mode was a mistake.
It’s only a mistake when people feel entitled to items
Which seems to be the case with a lot of the irons that complain here.
The concept is fine in of itself, especially when it began. Balancing around it was the final nail in the coffin. I've never seen a larger group of people who play this game and actively hate the grind. Trading exists to nullify long or unfortunate grinds and everyone signing up as an iron knew that they were going to go dry on items. Getting something like shadow was a rare but fantastic reward... but now so many of them feel its a requirement.
Hi highly doubt many people understand the side effects of pitty loot systems. The dt2 visage system is hated by most people because you don't know if you're 0/3, 1/3 or 2/3. You are "building drop chance". It doesn't matter what system they use for pitty system, the median drop rate must increase (for the same mean). This means player are incentivise to grind the content until they get the drop, and doing a mix of content will become strictly worse. This would clearly benifits ironmen who grind content for the drop them move on, by making grinds become more consistent, but make the game worse for mains.
Worse for mains would likely be some drop in profit per hour? It's an unrestricted game mode where you can literally do anything. Ironmen would benefit but would avoid having someone go a whole year not getting Bowfa because they only do 5kc a day. One of these is absolutely clearly worse than the other. Hoping the response isn't "you choose to restrict yourself" because a handful of people not getting an item for a year yet most getting it in 6 months is awful game design.
I'm not seeing a problem, looks like the guy has plenty of cash to buy a tbow with.
They chose to restrict themselves