I mean to be fair, 2007scape shat on autumn elegy 7-9 years ago all the same lol. He was like the boogeyman public enemy #1 whenever exp rates were discussed for new updates, people in the comments saying autumn elegy is gonna hate this or that he represents the "hlc" voting no to everything lol

Yo is your league ign same as here? I think i played an aram with you last night lol If so, damn, small world!

Ehh, I’m down to hate on prods as much as anyone but I think this is sort of a reach. Bad luck mitigation would be a pretty radical change but the context it’s arising in is very different from how OSRS has been for most of its life. Chasing powerful uniques didn’t feel this bad in 2007(2014) with GWD (in part because we didn’t know better) because the relative value of any given unique off a boss was usually close in overall player power and money. Sure, bandos boots are worthless, but between Tassets, BCP, and BGS hilt, the rest of the drops were of fairly comparable value. Compare this to Chambers, sure Dex is the second best upgrade in the entire raid, but it’s still ridiculously weak compared to the tbow. The tbow alone is like 40% of the power budget the player will gain from grinding that content, and it’s reflected in the gp/hr, usually accounting for 40-60% of profits in the long run. This wasn’t an issue for the four year window where the first two raids were the only meaningful end game. Our time wasn’t split between many different goals, going dry on a Scythe/tbow wasn’t too miserable because that likely was the end of your journey anyway. Since then, Zulrah (and blowpipe) have been nerfed and essentially replaced with Gauntlet, which has the same uneven drop table value as the raids. ToA was also added along with the DT2 bosses, which further pushed these lopsided drop tables. What was like 3 super rare chase items is now closer to 6 or 7. Nex doesn’t have this problem, despite being an absolutely abysmal encounter, she has a far less painful reward curve. Sure, you want the ZCB first if you’re an iron, but largely because it will make getting your Torva pieces easier. You’re still happy if you hit any of those armour pieces. I’m not saying I agree with bad luck mitigation or anything, but I get the complaints. A knock-on effect of Jagex’s current reward philosophy is that it maximizes misery when you’re dry, and feels like winning the lotto when you spoon. That kind of variance is going to marginalize people, regardless of the average grind.

Also there’s just so much more now and I think that’s a big part of it. When you were grinding for an item or two, or like in gwd where there were multiple items everyone wanted from one boss, or doesn’t feel as bad to grind. Now with like the dt2 bosses where everyone is really just hoping for a ring it hurts more to spend that much time on it.

This is entirely where I’m at as an iron. GWD felt like lotto; DT2 feels like pain. I have never even considered going for nightmare yet because my raid tables aren’t done, and nightmare is too painful without BIS. This is coming from an end game 2100 iron with a number of end game drops finished. It feels frustrating that end game somehow means exponentially increased drop curve instead of getting to have fun with the best equipment in the game.  I feel punished that I did so much.

Agreed, and I can't help but wonder if part of the reason this factor is often overlooked is a sort of 'frog in boiling water' situation. One or two items added that's a significantly longer grind than gwd was? That's fine, it's only a couple. Then gradually over time more are incrementally added until the window of what's a normal grind has shifted a good bit higher from what once was. Each in isolation is fine but together they shift the norm a good bit. I can't help but feel like this discussion would be far less prevalent if these grinds hadn't inflated so dramatically. We talk about keeping things in line with how OSRS has always been, but I don't think we often realize that we've already strayed pretty far from that baseline as is, and that happened well before hero pass.

I also feel that going on drop rate the rates per time invested to too large. Yeah T bow is the best item in the game but it takes 2x longer than the shadow which is the 2nd best. Corp and nightmare are stupid with their drop rates especially when you consider their power. I honestly feel no grind outside of pets should take 400 hours on drop rate. If you want turbo long grinds there are pets. I also feel things like DWH etc should have never been 1/5k unless on task is 1/1k. Which is fine, I’m okay with making slayer rates better than pure camping of mobs.

100% agree. I honestly don’t think either ‘side’ is right or wrong. I enjoy OSRS but the time investment required is insane currently. But again if the purists were to turn round and say that’s Old school, I’d agree. But Jagex has a decision to make for the future of the game and player retention. We don’t need bad luck mitigation we just need reasonable drop rates and ditch bullshit items like Ingots which already makes a dreadful grind even more terrible.

It's not really old school though so there's no need to agree. Then compared to now is starkly different and the time to get your drops and finish the gear is completely unrecognizable. As someone that played every era I think the context people are missing is that getting max gear now in 2024 is a bigger time investment than getting several phat *sets* in 2007 which is something that almost nobody to play the game back then ever achieved I have bils on osrs and I still have rares on rs3 from my time in the mid 2000s. I imagine due to my age and time investment then and now there aren't many people who can tell you first hand just how different the effort and investment is now compared to then. It's completely unrecognizable. Anyone that thinks today is easyscape is delusional. You have nice qol now. You have better methods now. The game makes you absolutely fucking bleed hours of your life away like never before now to get anywhere near the end game. 2007 was grindy. 2024 is your life. People are really hung up on the exact mechanics behind the drop but they're lost and need help. What they need to see is how much time it takes to get drops and to do things. Once they really catch up on that they're going to have to recognize that the game that we play now is completely off base compared to 2007. It's so much more grindy and far gone. That's why people are asking for a new drop mechanic to protect them from absurd drop rates now but not back then. There is nothing "old school" about blowing 500 hours trying to loot a tbow.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I stopped reading OPs wall of text after they mentioned dry mitigation is antithetical to osrs. As someone that has played the game since 2005, the absolute rarest unique drops back then were 1/512 for encounters that lasted a couple minutes at most. In current day osrs you have things like enhanced that are 1/400 which can take anywhere from 8-12min per kc based on your prep and don't even get me started on raid drops or nightmare. When dt2 bosses were first pitched I thought the absolute worst drop rates would be were 1/512 for the ring drops and 1/384 for a virtus piece similar to what gwd is, not the abborhent trash drop table we have now. Back in the day I wouldn't have agreed with dry mitigation, but with the current iteration of the game dry mitigation would be a godsend.

If somehow dry mitigation would be in the game since 2004 the same people would defend it to death.

Exactly what this guy said; bad luck mitigation on *current* best endgame items doesn't feel too necessary, but those of us who followed the game through the years might not understand that going x4 dry on a "stepping stone" item feels like a different beast Obviously there should be no bad luck mitigation for cosmetic vanity items like pets, but shit like bowfa and dwh absolutely should get it. You know, key items that still take a lot of time even with bad luck mitigation. I'd even go as far as to say just tackle the pain points individually. Shard system for bowfa (maybe less shards afford you to make a saeldor) and something particular with DWH. Much of the rest of the game is fine as is.

Agreed wholeheartedly, I thought OP was cooking until I realized this was about bad luck mitigation. BLM is just making the game slightly more rewarding to play imo.

I don’t care for bad luck mitigation if they bring drop rates back down to reality. There is no universe where bosses should be consistently released with 100+ hour drop rates; it’s fucking annoying. GWD era max was a whip, that’s like 10 hours of chill combat to go on rate. Barrows is easy as fuck and if you have a brain drop rate is easy obtainable even for the most casual of players. Contrast it to nowadays where every item worth using just has to take 50 hours minimum to get and has some sort of gimmick to get/use (torva requiring bandos, masori requiring arma). This “core value of OSRS” was abandoned when they started to do that and you just got gaslit along the way that this is normal. Obviously raids should have some form of mega rare for people that want that, but new content is just always stupidly time consuming when that wasn’t the case back in the day. It was always that skilling took forever while PVM was a moderate grind, and the long ones were really only long bc people sucked ass at the game when they were 12 playing at 2am while mom and dad slept.

Came here to say this, there is nothing 'oldschool' about the modern drop rates of OSRS. The rarest thing in RS2 was 1/512 from content that took you a few minutes tops.

Did you play that era? There was nothing comparable to a 1/5k DWH drop. The rarest comp you had was 1/1133 ranger boots for a +5 ranged attack bonus over snakeskin. God Wars dungeon introduced what was at the time, the longest time to complete content in the game. Where drop rates top out at one over a couple hundred. And you still have a bunch of BIS equipment (fire cape, barrows gloves, nezzy helm,) that were just quest or minigame rewards. The thought of a quest giving you an actual equipment upgrade at this point is laughable because it has to instead be a mob or boss unlocked by the quest that has a 1/1000 drop or some shit. The scale of time to completion has gotten monstrous. A boss requiring several hundred hours to get useful drops from is nuts. There's a limit to what most people think a sane grind is. Yeah Settled can go play in the swamp and grind smithing by running across Morytania with each bag of iron ore, but that isn't what the average player wants or did in 06. And we are talking about a game that already started with anti-spoon mechanics so that purity is already a moot point. How the hell is this an RS3 refugee issue? Game design has changed. Time to complete is a huge metric in how content gets approved for development, they have said this on stream multiple times. Old school mentality was that the game was a stat grind with some item grinds in between. OSRS is a item grind with stat grinds in between. We are talking about trying to emulate an era where ironmen didn't exist and the second longest item grind in the game was Barrows. Where item switching was largely ditched for "fuck it, I'm using Verac's." The only exception to this was ranger boots which to this day are the most valuable functional item from the backup. I'll admit that having irons exist in the quantity that they do fucks up the game design because things like imbued hearts or dlegs, if they were still relevant, are now game design third rails. But the cat's out of the bag on irons. Because while a dragon leg drop made sense when everyone was killing metal dragons in 06, having a functional drop like that now makes it a pain for irons. There's genuinely a level of grognard that prevents people from going "What the hell is this?" to not be seen as a normie or casual. Phosani's is the extreme example, but you can't tell me that a boss with 1/666 and three different 1/3000 drops to make one usable weapon is reasonable. Especially when with max gear and stats you're getting an estimated 6.5 rolls on that an hour. And then you introduce DT2 that doesn't give you jack shit for, I dunno, completing the actual quest but introduced anti-spoon mechanics for the rings. That's just another name for good-luck mitigation.

This is kind of the big point for me. For most of RS2, BIS gear was a 1/512 from a normal slayer mob that could be killed off task and bosses that took 2-3 minutes to solo or under 30s in a team. The 500+ hour PVM grinds are entirely a “new school” creation, and any post about dry mitigation that doesn’t acknowledge that fact is either willfully dishonest or uninformed, tbh.

>How the hell is this an RS3 refugee issue? Yeah lol, imagine letting RS3 and its players sit so rent free in your mind they're now at fault for Old School update suggestions.

> We are talking about trying to emulate an era where ironmen didn't exist and the second longest item grind in the game was Barrows. This is the real thing people seem to be forgetting tbh. I have been playing since 2006 and bossing in general wasnt exactly a big thing. GWD, barrows, tormented demons and corp was a thing but if you look at the roster of bosses in RS3... the extreme majority are from the rs3 era, same exact thing in OSRS so its exactly as you say game direction was very much in a different place and people to this day question the existence of corp both in drop rates and actual drops. People would be at least agitated today if Perils had 3 more bosses and 3x more uniques with 0 dupe protection ( barrows )

I consider myself an OSRS boomer and I agree with a lot of the sentiment around rs3 refugees and even new players post Covid that the overall view has changed a ton. Just look at ToB raid rewards to see that we got 1 max hit over tent whip and trident and the scythe mega rare. ToA in contrast has full new BiS range set/shadow/fang/lightbearer. That being said I don’t think bad luck mitigation is the hill to die on and generally I think it’s a positive thing for the game. We are talking about such a tiny fraction of the player base that ever even reaches something like 15-20k shaman kills or thousands of cox without a tbow. We still maintain the rng factor and the rate of new items coming into the game is almost unchanged. The only difference is now some poor Ironman isn’t 3000+ CoX without a tbow. Why is that bad?

OSRS Redditors really are something else, they are ok 5x-ing Nightmare drop rates for EVERYONE because they haven't done the grind, but they are also against slightly improving drop rates for a few people so that their experience is a little bit less miserable because they already got their part of the cake, you know what's the things we should be weary about? Toolbet, free instant teleports to everywhere, 20 different skilling buffs spread between 20 different items you have to carry at once, skilling methods that are both fast AND rewarding, making previously valuable gear outright obsolete instead of using them as components for the new stuff, increasing the amount of a very few select items in the game by a fraction of a percent isn't an issue, but god forbid others don't suffer like they did.

>I agree with a lot of the sentiment around rs3 refugees  I've come to osrs from a 4.8b max rs3 account with a large group from my clan. Not a single person in this group wants faster rates like rs3. Slower/lower rates and therefore "achievement" in the grinds are why we switched. It's why a lot of rs3 players switch.. There's just so little value in rs3 achievements that arent absolute end game, like IFB, absolute max xp, amd trim comp. I believe you're assuming most/all rs3 players want rs3 rates, but my experience is that they came to osrs to get away from that.

Nah, third camp here. The change in mentality in OS isn't from RS3 players coming from RS3. As funny as it is to think that, as long as I've been playing this shift was just bound to happen. It happened in RS3 because RS3 was the main game, the faster game, the less grindy one. Eventually the mindset of the players who stuck with it shifted to min/max, afk content, and reduction in the daily playstyle. We got older, that's why. For OS that SAME EXACT SHIFT is happening- it was just a bit slower to get there, but honestly not by much. OS vets are the SAME PEOPLE that RS3 vets played with pre EOC. We are all getting older, and funny enough, our mindsets are shifting towards the same goals, albeit in different ways. I've been watching this happen in OS for years. Purists (JUST like the old classic purists) are slowly quitting, and moving on. They were always the biggest advocates in not changing/increasing ANY metric of the game. However- just like PVP'ers in RS3 and OS, they were a very small, and niche community that devs couldn't warrant listening to business wise in order to keep the game moving. As a matter of fact, I've been watching the pk'ing community get smaller, and smaller in OS- as was inevitable, but still, it's happening the same way it did pre EOC, and would have happened regardless of the removal of free trade and wild. I would LOVE to see truly afk training methods come to OS- and they will. Downvote me if you'd like, but won't change what's coming. The "im going to quit if they do x/y/z!" Isn't really that effective unless the \*majority\* also fall in line with it, and keeping certain metrics out just isn't the majority anymore. Take for example thieving in Val- Which is realistically just an awesome mock up of Menaphos when it boils down to it, I mean it works- but Thieving wealthy citizens/breaking into houses is just a step away from Thieving marketers (100% afk for low xp with the right boosts, but also nets great resources for IM) and safecracking. I absolutely love it, wish it was even more afk, let us pay the lil' scoundrels to put on a show for an hour, that'd be awesome! I digress. Anyways, these changings were going to happen regardless of whether RS3 players came to OS or not. I enjoy OS, it's fun, and it's nostalgic. However it's also incredibly slow, and I mean that in a way where it's \*too\* slow at certain points. The devs will make choices to keep players interested. If what they change doesn't appeal to you- over and over, then just assume you're no longer in that majority. Sucks, but hey, it'll be fun while it last regardless.

So I read all this, and I agree with a lot of it, but it seems like you think I said something I didnt and I'm confused by the angle of your response haha.

That's why I dislike reddit (and work emails funnily enough). There wasn't any ire, anger, or even discontent that was *meant* in what I replied, but that happens with the written language. I didn't think you said anything off, bad, or that I disagree with either. Was just piggybacking on your comment for the initial post honestly. At least you didn't immediately jump to a conclusion that I was trying to bash you, I'm not XD. Just jumping on the train, and your post was it! See ya scapin'

>That's why I dislike reddit (and work emails funnily enough).  I feel ya. It's hard to tell sometimes, especially on reddit. You actually articulated a lot of the similarities I've been noticing between osrs' current trajectory and what rs3 went through. It's almost eerie watching the gradual mentality shift happen a second time.

Very true. I know some vet OS players (those that played pre OS release, not the ones who have started playing after) are prone to deny the similarities, but honestly PVP and the extreme dislike of it was a pretty large indicator to me. Once players started being receptive to ACTUAL afk methods of skilling (similar to RS3) that confirmed it. QOL is the name of the game now. Hell, there are SO many things from RS3 that OS could really use for that, and would make the gameplay so much better/fluid. Same for RS3. I would kill to have an injected client like RL on RS3. Even simple plugins like tile markers, entity hiders, quest helper ect would be SO useful. I would love to have a RL like plugin that could follow my summons for necro, or keep track of my stacks. Alt 1 has this- but like most things, alt 1 is so fickle with with basically everything on the upkeep that it's almost not worth it. People tend to forget, OS and RS3 are the SAME game, it just split in different paths for playstyles. I play them both, and think both could benefit so much more from one another. The current OS playerbase is- ironically enough, agreeing with that sentiment without even knowing it!

Also high end RS3 here and I play OSRS for the same reasons you listed. I still go back to RS3 when I want the cheap dopamine hits or want to afk something but OSRS is my main game now because it actually feels like what I do matters.

I think the fact is just that the game is not the same. Polls went for years and people *voted in new content, sometimes extremely overpowered* and wouldn't want any of that changed later. The game has grown larger. There were 30 devs 3 or 4 years ago, and their last news post listed ~80 (obviously not all designing new content, but part of the team). That's just more ideas and more ability to get work done. They are pumping out updates very quickly right now compared to previous. But that's what people are voting for. The new content they're designing is honestly great... but it isn't what you ever imagined in 2015.   The reality is that they make content and the community almost always votes yes to it. We as a community have sent the game down this path. We wanted updates to the game. We have received them. We wanted osrs to grow and flourish. It has. Part of that means there are more people at the table making decisions and yeah... that's where we are. They have a different development model than wow. We don't get new tiers, or classic moving into another old xpac. I'd wager that the average osrs player's graph of play has significantly less peaks and valleys compared to retail or classic. Bad luck mitigation is a pretty natural conversation to have if they want to keep targeting burnout.   I don't have a super strong opinion either way. If they add it in some form... I'd like to only start accruing value if you're at ~3x the drop rate and the item can only ever go down to 1/2 of its normal rate. Something to prevent most of the extreme dry streaks but not enough to ever care about your mitigation for 99.999% of scenarios. That is my hope for if they do feel like they need to add something like this. It is probably not as divisive as reddit makes it sound, but that loud voice helped lead to osrs. It's a conundrum for the dev team. I'm surprised how quick they are churning content these days. I don't feel like the game is at all like it was even when Inferno released. But again... we as a community voted for that over the years. 

> I'm surprised how quick they are churning content these days. I don't feel like the game is at all like it was even when Inferno released. But again... we as a community voted for that over the years. I feel like it's a mix of community voting and vocal communities outside of polls. I don't think polls alone influence all changes - Reddit posts/comments/etc have a fair bit of influence imo. That can also dictate was goes into a poll.

They pumped out way more updates in the past than they do today. Inferno, COX, TOB, DS2, Fossil Island all came out within like 18 months lol I swear people that say we get more updates today than we do in the past just didn't play in the past, we do not get nearly as many updates. Our big update for the year last year on the scale of any of those was literally only DT2. This year it's Varlamore. In 2022 it was TOA. We get one update that size in a year and in 2017-2018 they pumped out 5, and those were not even close to the only updates that happened then either. Covid drastically changed the update landscape but also bigger team means more corporate BS to get things done. 2017-2018 had like 10 people or less.

> Surely in a torrent of updates that are already making the game easier and more streamlined in so many ways we aren’t actually asking for this. Why is this, something that won't even benefit the 95% that just get the drop in a reasonable amount of time and will only benefit people who have already spent a ridiculous amount of time grinding, such a specifically egregious example of easyscape in your eyes. I have an opposite opinion of most people. I'm strongly opposed to easyscape in general, but for people who have grinded 3x the rate and have absolutely 0 to show for it I support some basic level of fairness and empathy. This isn't even easy necessarily. This is giving people progress towards items they put in plenty of work to earn. How is 110 cb pvm shitters getting spoon-fed a shadow not easyscape, while the 5% that are 1200+ dry at cg getting a droprate boost is? > One of the most foundational pillars of this game is that no matter how much you grind for an item, you’re no closer than you started. Why though. Or rather, why should it be? Why is it good that it is?

Given that they don’t give a justification for that last statement, their reasoning can probably be boiled down to >It is like this, it was like this, therefore it should remain like this forever. They probably haven’t thought through their opinion at all.

anti osrs?? Dagonnoth kings have a 1/128 berserker ring, GWD has 1/380 for pieces. A clan can obtain a full set if the camp bandos all day. One can camp phosani a whole year everyday to get whole set, Majority of those drops are botted and bought on GE, not earned. After Cox Everything got into the thousand hour grinds. If they add a t85 wep i could only imagine it be another thousand hour grind guaranteed. osrs team has been butchering the drop rates to insane levels now that they can't add anything new without it having an absurd drop rate or have that weapon be an upgrade of another rare weapon. You even got a damn hammer that's only good for a spec that it's a 1/5000 chance, that some have killed 30k and it's vital to account pregression... Like how is that 2007 scape... At worst the DWH should have been a boss drop at 1/256. It's only a spec weapon. Your take is so ridiculous as you need some unlocks to progress and having players go 30k lizards for it is just straight up disrespectful.

All bad luck mitigation does is make sure no one spends an ungodly amount of time at content. I don't think letting an Iron who would have gone 2400kc at cg "only" go 1600kc at cg for their enhanced is a bad thing. Because we have to accept irons make a decent portion of this game's population and making it so they don't quit over astronomically bad rng could be a good thing.

this is the sensible take, player retention is good for the game and BLM would be a a minor increase in total drops...

I read that as Black Lives Matter the first go around…

BLM: are we discussing bad luck mitigation, Black Lives Matter, or the Bureau of Land Management? Impossible to know for sure, really

Irons make up a very sizeable % once you account for all the bots. Also the fact that most irons do or did have a main. From a Jagex sales perspective, a main going dry on an item just means they now have extra GP and buy the item. An iron going dry may mean them quitting if it's bad enough or important enough of an item. I'd also imagine if iron was never considered in updates it would be a horrible mode and tons of mains would have just quit instead of make irons.

Gonna be honest, you changed my opinion on this one. 

This is sensible. I’ve done more raids than ALL my in game friends and I’m the only one without a tbow it’s been really hard because I want that before I move on after spending so much time hunting so I’ve stopped playing for a long time now. I don’t miss it. I wish I wasn’t so unlucky it’s just not fun after doing your fair share and then some.

Eh, bad luck mitigation (if implemented correctly) only effects outliers on the extreem fringe; 1%ers who are 3x, 4x dry. Its not a big deal, it hardly adds more items to the economy, its really only specifically helps ironman, it dosent gaurentee you a drop, and it dosent have to be added to all drops, pets and other vanity items dont need it. They could even choose to not add megarares ect. Sire, muspah, and dt2 all have forms of bad luck mitigation pre rs3 battlepass, so i think this is more of a topic due to osrs team showing intrest in it moreso than rs3 migrators.

Yup. Someone simulated corrupted gauntlet dry streaks with and without bad luck protection, and the protection was only 5% faster on average. And like you said, it's because they took out the outliers. People acting like it's a huge change which disrespects the integrity of the game are just bad at math. They could even add bad luck protection and keep the average time the same by tuning the original drop rate a bit. But no, fuck ironman and fuck collection log lol

I think it's funny how people say things like "its against the core identity of the game.". According to who? Is there some sort of Bible of Runescape written by the Gower brothers that I missed that says "though shalt go dry and enjoy it" lol. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be expected to be able to greenlog the whole game, but I really don't see the downside to bad luck mitigation. It would sure beat the hell out of the 2/3 garbage from the dt2 bosses.

And, lo, the Gower brothers doth said, "Fuck dem irons, lol." Psalm 420:69

Nah Psalm was written by Ash. The Gower Gods wrote the book of Zaros.

According to me, obviously. My uncle is jagex. I know better than you all

Iirc they did the math slightly wrong originally and it was actually closer to 1-2% on average

We don't need Bad Luck Mitigation, we just need non-meme drop rates. But the whole game is built around the SaaS model, so if drop rates were actually reasonable, some people might leave after completing the majority of the content.

I'd argue that by the time a player actually manages to "complete" the game, they instead stick around and start whining for more updates. Or they make a new account to repeat the process. When they've sunk that much time into the game, they don't want to move on. Check out the RS3 subreddit's weekly update threads. Whenever an update week is just patch notes, it'll have 0 upvotes and the majority of the thread comments will be from completionists complaining about no new content. These players beat the game; they should've moved on a long time ago. But they don't.

Drop rates at GWD are completely reasonable compared to the shit they’ve been pumping out.  If I’m taking 3 minutes to kill a boss don’t give it a 1/5k chance to drop a meaningful upgrade because that sounds terrible.  I’m not even a fan of 1/1k drop like hydra claw.  I can’t even imagine doing a 30-50 minute raid a thousand times and not getting the weapon I need. 

Modern drop rates are completely unhinged. If we're to cry "muh oldschool" and time a new idea comes around we should atleast get oldschool drop rates.

ITT some people don't understand the concept of liking the content but thinking something shouldn't take 500 hours of gameplay to achieve in the same breath. And no I've never touched RS3 and have played osrs as a kid and now as an adult. Since that seems to be the weird defense of "RS3 refugees".

It's just because drops are dummy rare post CoX Drops taking as much time as a 99 are new and there's a lot of ironmen, collection loggers, and people who want to get the drop on their own who don't want to spend 400 hours at the same boss

Yeah this guys saying it’s anti osrs, so are the drop rates we’re getting now days lol. The rarest things back in the day were gwd and 1/512 whips. Now we have 800 hour grinds

Yep, honestly it's insane anyone thought 1/5000 drops were ever a smart idea. I guess it artificially lengthens the content, personally I think it's just a shit countermeasure to the fact so much of the player base is so much more efficient than we used to be

I'd rather change the drop rates than introduce bad luck protection.

100% agree honestly

This sub would also throw a shitfit if we did that

I don’t want “bad drop mitigation”, but I’m in favor of Jagex changes the CoX and nightmare drop table rates. They can leave pets alone. And for moving forward, they need to not make grinds take 500 hours. I get this game is a marathon, but maybe just make it a half marathon

Can you please for the love of Christ change that profile pic.

I’ve changed it but bring it back due to popular demand. You could always join me

Ironman mode and Collection Logs are the only reason dry protection even matters, these are both relatively new in the grand scheme of things. I guess people tend to forget this, but don't forget that at the end of the day this is still an MMO and being able to trade each other and interact with other players makes something like a 1/5000 drop more sensible when it's 100k+ people killing that enemy and able to trade among each other.

Ironman mode was released in october 2014. Osrs released in feb 2013. It came out a year and half after osrs, 9 years ago. I wouldn’t call that relatively new especially in the grand scheme of things. Edit: Just for reference Ironman mode came out before the grand exchange did. Is the Ge relatively new?

> these are both relatively new in the grand scheme of things Someone lost perspective. Ironman mode has existed in an official capacity for ~43% of the entire lifespan of the game RuneScape from Classic to Now, and in an Unofficial one for well over half. Ironman has existed for 9 years, which is longer than the entire time RS2 lasted as a whole.

Ironman is just more popular nowadays. It’s been around since the early days of osrs.

it's still not the standard way of playing the game and definitely not something I will tell a brand new player to try out first as it does miss out on a fundamental aspect of the game.

Other than Rune Platebodies, ironman mode works mostly because it already made enough sense in the base game. Self-sufficiency is part of the game core. Not that we should always design for it, but never design against it.

> never design against it. Honestly this is the key thing here. If there is something thats not worth doing on Ironmen ( and ironmen are the ones who benefit more from any content ) chances are its not going to be in a good place on a main either. You can see this from how many people were complaining about colosseum death costs.

Yeah the majority of players are still very clearly mains

Majority of bots, too... /s

Even outside of irons and cloggers, it still isn't great to just never get a drop. Like if you're a main who just wants to make $, going 2K+ CG without an enhanced still sucks... So if there were a reasonable bad luck mitigation system that only impacted those outliers while having little to no effect on your average player, I don't see that being bad for anyone.

I think we have to realize though - It's not 100k people killing that enemy. It MIGHT be, when it's new content and hit for the very first time nowadays. But 100k people aren't killing Dag Kings anymore - The rings are worthwhile, but not *that* worthwhile. 100k people aren't killing Duke - They might have been, right after DT2 launch, but that number tapers and drops quickly. 100k people aren't doing ToA experts, 100k people aren't clearing Colosseum, 100k people aren't clearing Inferno - We barely have a total of 100k people playing at peak times, not every single one of them is killing every piece of content. I know I'm not - I'm barely capable of ToA 100. Not only that, but every new piece of content is now a battle between that 1/5000 drop rate, and the new content, which in most cases will make that 1/5000 drop rate look less incentivizing. Which is precisely the problem with Inquisitor nowadays. It's simply not good compared to other melee gear. It's rarity is not justified by it's strength, and it's value reflects that, driving yet *further* people away from that content. Thus, that 1/5000 drop rate isn't being farmed by 100k people all at once. This game may be an MMO, with the capability to host multiple hundreds of thousands, possibly even up to millions at once - But that doesn't mean it *is hosting that many at all times and in all areas.*

I mean my number wasn't supposed to be taken literally and be blanket applied to every thing evenly. Though I'll break down exactly what I meant. Even discounting bots from the equation. A single boss is being killed a lot and with how the droprates work in the game, even a rather rare drop is going to be entering the game rather frequently. Like just look at the high scores of the 2 new bosses from Varlamore and add up the first page of each, and remember there are thousands of people below that with decent KCs too(not to mention Colosseum has rewards even for those who never kill Sol). I think a better wording of what I meant is that since it's a flat droprate for everything(outside of whatever they tried doing for DT2 bosses) something like a 1/5000 drop seems less impractical when you realize the boss just died 80,000 times in the past week across thousands of players. Whether it's 1 kc from a few random people, the pet hunters, the cloggers, or the people who just like the boss. Especially when the idea of what an MMO is, and trading is commonplace among players. that being said, I am not defending how Nightmare was designed, and idk why Jagex has been stubborn on this for so long. This is realistically something that never should've been released as it was since I don't think the gear ever was top tier and whatever small portions of it was got powercrept rather quickly. The fact that we're at the point now where Jagex is basically saying, "yea we fucked up the droprates of this boss and didn't do enough when we copy pasted a slightly better version of it, but now it's too late to change it so we'll make this incremental buff instead."

>I mean my number wasn't supposed to be taken literally and be blanket applied to every thing evenly. It was, however, meant to suggest a LOT of people are doing the content. That's the problem with your statement. You can't guarantee *anyone* is doing that content. And the less worthwhile the content is, the less people are doing it, contradicting your point. Any number you plug into the 100k spot, would demonstrate the exact same point - It just so happens that 100k is a higher number than the playercount in most cases, which only makes it easier to make that point. My use of that exact number is not to suggest the *exact number* matters. It's to show that, when you break down the statement "this is an MMO," you don't actually come to any worthwhile conclusion. The game being an MMO, doesn't magically make enough people appear to do every piece of content. Content existing, doesn't magically make people flock to it. If content isn't worth doing, people, unsurprisingly, *don't do it.* When people don't do content, the rewards from that content become harder to obtain - Demonstrated perfectly by Nightmare. Inquisitor armor isn't worth chasing at 1/1k, so the price skyrockets because no one is willing to farm it. But at such a high price, it isn't worth buying, so people just *don't use it.*

Ironman has been around 90% of osrs’s life.

Bruh can reddit stop being sooo over dramatic. Someone proposed bad luck mitigation and people already are pretending like it has any serious consideration to be implemented. And you know what, if the people vote for it, why not, stop pretending like it would be the apocalypse.

Yeah, the GE was a way more newschool/RS3 friendly update than this and it did the opposite of killing the game. Been thriving since.

I mean yeah, considering a Jmod replied to that post and said he'll talk to the team about implementing it, I can see why people would think that.

He's also trying to make some point about sod, which has a low player count because there hasn't been an actual new raid in like half a year almost and they're now doing fated which is content we've basically already cleared. Honestly if they add bad luck mitigation I hope they make sure to put it in the chat when it happens so op can drop it on the ground and play the game like it should be

The amount of fearmongering about that bad luck mitigation idea I saw on twitter from people who play all day every day (and may or may not get paid for it) is impressive. And these are the same people who support upping Dwh from 1/5k to 1/3k because it's beneficial to their ironmen. I don't have a strong opinion either way but someone's idea for a gameplay mechanic doesn't hurt me.

I think this changed with Ironman game modes. Before, we were never 'locked' as we could always just buy an item instead of doing a certain activity. I remember buying my 1st d chain for 14m in rs2 in W2 fally. I made the gp by crafting nature runes which were around 290-310 each at the time.

It more so changed when we started getting drops balancing around having to play this game as a job if you go on rate for things

For a significant portion of the playerbase (not a majority or anything, but a significant portion), this game is their _whole life_. I've put 1400 hours into this game over five years (a mild commitment in this playerbase, but most ordinary well-adjusted people would say that's a fucking lot of time to dedicate to a single videogame), and I'm nowhere close to max or BIS gear or anything like that. I've really enjoyed my time with the game, but I can't say with a straight face that I don't find it offputting that, at a certain point, the game basically requires you to dedicate your life to it to make noticeable progress. If someone does dedicate that much to the game and wants to spend their time that way, that's fine, but no well-adjusted person can be surprised when people who can't play for more than a few hours per day (or only on weekends) look at these grinds, do basic arithmetic in their head, and say "fuck that" then quit.

Yeah, true. But when I was younger I think I didn't really have that idea. I just did whatever.

It’s unfortunate all the gathering or generating items skills are bottes to oblivion then it would feel good.

Yep, and I 100% disagree with those that think new content should be balanced around Ironman mode in any sense. It is a purposely limited game mode that someone chooses to play, balancing things around it shouldn’t be a thing tbh

Who is PNM balanced around? I genuinely don't think people realize that 1/5000 drops are not balanced around Main accounts, but around bot accounts.

When bots fuel the economy and make 75% of content affordable it should

There's an insane amount of inconsistency in logic and borderline hypocrisy of people liking changes that largely betters a restricted account, but then turn around and say "pures deserve nothing". They're all still players in the end. If Scar Essence exists, then so should Chivalry without quest requirements (I say this as a 126 combat main). Either balance for all reasonable self-restricted builds, or balance for none.

Scar Essence is a bad example because it definitely did not need to be introduced and is the epitome of a bandaid solution. The problem should have been solved by increasing the base amount of Runes you craft at a time, updating Shops, and re-balancing supply intensive weapons.

The difference is iron man mode is a sanctioned account type. Maybe they make certain balance decision with other account restrictions if they add them in like they did Irons

Jagex tried to officially sanction other limited builds and the community didn't like it

They're chronically citing unsanctioned builds as reasons for balance and design - Iron skillers, 808 builds, etc. They did this for Forestry, Varlamore, etc. It's been mentioned on stream several times recently and for some reason, everyone is okay with that until pures are brought up. That "some reason" is because people hate pures and their PVP oriented build.

Pires are also a sanctioned account type with their own high score page

Oh yeah that’s a fair point too which I agree with - I don’t think content should be made/balanced around pures either, there needs to be a consistent stance

As someone who has been playing this game for almost 10 years, I stand behind the recent discussions regarding dry protection, and I think it a fair point of discussion regarding the likes of Nightmare, Corrupted Gauntlet, DWH and CoX. This game has always been grindy and that aspect is what many of us love, but we also need to face reality and realize that OSRS is an aging game with an aging player base. Most of the playerbase are working people, dads, moms, have other activities in their lives like sportclubs or something else. You're afraid that these changes will kill the game, but keeping the game and a lot of drops as is will kill the game as well. I think a few months ago there was a graph showcasing the time it takes to complete some of the big bosses and, I think, you cannot argue that nightmare should take 1.3k fking hours to complete, neither should Chambers of Xeric. Those hours are not realistic for a lot of people and they need to be looked at. A few days ago the post of dry protection was actually interesting as the average kc at which a players get a desired item like the enhanced weapon seed was still close to the average rate of 1/400 with dry protection. The post also highlighted that the most unlucky of players will spend half of what the current most unlucky player with spend in CG. What keeps people playing the game are the big drops we chase, but if those big drops keep eluding us, at what point will we just quit? I know, for example, many ironman who have quit due to CG or Chambers, is that really how we keep a game alive by keeping these absurd drop rates in the game without some form of dry protection? You also have to realize that at some point items like the Tbow, inquisitor, ancestral, masori, scythe, torva and shadow will no longer be BiS and are stepping stones for people to attain the BiS that we will later have. Does it makes sense to have these "stepping stones" still be locked behind absolutely absurd grinds that take a thousand hours on average to complete? Furthermore, do you really want new players to look at this game and see the absurd amount of hours that are needed to get to certain points? New and young players are not going to play a game that requires dozens upon dozens of days to get somewhere when they can just launch a game where they can have fun in within a few minutes or hours.?

> This game has always been grindy and that aspect is what many of us love, but we also need to face reality and realize that OSRS is an aging game with an aging player base. Most of the playerbase are working people, dads, moms, have other activities in their lives like sportclubs or something else. You're afraid that these changes will kill the game, but keeping the game and a lot of drops as is will kill the game as well. Yeah I really don't think dry protection on some 1/5k drop is even a drastic ask or change to how things work, most people are never going to reach 100% dry protection (Someone way smarter than me did a chart on the original thread and I seem to recall that is accurate) and even if you do go for the guarantee you just killed a boss say 15k times I think you genuinely deserve that item at that point it's not like effort and time was not put in and locking an item guarantee behind 15k kills is a plenty big enough barrier. I think the whole balancing project being done right is *way* more important to the future of the game than someone being guaranteed an item after camping a boss for 15k kills for a single item.

>One of the most foundational pillars of this game is that no matter how much you grind for an item, you’re no closer than you started Explain how is that a pillar of the game. How will going 7x dry on specific item make OSRS the cool game but having a "cap" on that number will ruin it.

They also kinda gloss over the fact that ToA and DT2 already have systems that go against that. Not even talking about Vestiges, but the ToA Gems and the DT2 Quartz change drop rates based on KC until you get them.

Yeah the "logic" makes no sense in that post, at all.

I’ve been on the classicwow subreddit since ~2018 and the 2007scape Reddit since around that time. That sub is infinitely more toxic and serves as an oasis for people to bitch and moan about every aspect of the game. One wrong thing happens in WoW and people are tripping over themselves to write a melodramatic complaint post. There are some similarities here, but this place is much more tolerable. Significantly more memes and banter, and more jokes in the comments I know I’m a bit off topic here but we really shouldn’t be comparing these two subreddits

Everyone made fun of autumn elegy but ngl i loved his "most optimal methods" to doing stuff and just picking and choosing what i liked off it. You'll never see me doing tick manipulation, but knowledge is a good thing.

>In my opinion, bad luck mitigation is completely antithetical to the values of OSRS. As is the expectation that you should be able to get and complete anything you want in a reasonable amount of time. I think this only makes sense within certain contexts. Bad luck mitigation shouldn't be affecting people who are 2 times, maybe even 3 times dry, but anything after that, why should the player continue? You talk about OSRS trying to find it identity to make sure players are sticking around not split like your WOW example but as the game is going on and as it is more solved there are some items you *need* to get. Obviously this is just for ironmen but at a certain point why wouldn't you want drops that are considered necessary to get more accessible? We think about things like dragon warhammer. I think anyone complaining that the drop rate is going from 1/5k to 1/3k just doesn't want anything to improve or change at all. There is nothing negative about a necessary raid item being cheaper. Mains get access to more expensive gear elsewhere and irons have a chance to experience high level content (which is some of the best content might I add.) >I guess I am just an OSRS boomer at this point, because I genuinely can’t believe that a sizable percentage of longer term players are supporting this. If there were ever a poll for it, I’d love to see the data behind votes and historical play activity. I can't say what you're saying is entirely wrong I would hate for an update to nuke this game the way EOC did but at a certain point jagex needs to respect players time and there's only so many ways they can do that. If they introduce other content thats easy to get similar use drops, then the original drops lose their value. It's really a lose lose so they might as well keep players coming back

[удалено]

What was the rarest drop for an actually useful item when the original backup was made? I feel like the post-backup content had worse drop rates... drop mitigation doesnt seem so antithetical to me

Gwd was added post backup. Excluding the visage, the rarest non barrows item was a whip at 1/512 off an abyssal demon

People were also extremely inefficient, time to kill was much much slower as well. Bandos is 1/381, but back then that took you 150 trips because you could only do 2-3 a trip. The time to complete Bandos back then is probably similar to a 1/1k-1/1.5k item now.

Fair point!

I do agree that bad luck mitigation isn't necessary, but I do think rewards need to stop being hidden behind absurd drop rates. I'm fine with cosmetics and pets being hard to get, but a d warhammer being a 1/5k? why is that even a real drop rate for such an impactful item? you could argue something similar about the tbow and other high end gears too. The problem is that OSRS is kinda turning into a streamer game. Long grinds and low drop rates that make for awesome stream content and big moments for videos, but not something that the average player is going to have the time for or want to do. It's time to at least adjust drop rates to make some of this shit easier (not easy - easier) to get so that we don't have to spend hundreds of hours to get a minor upgrade

wtf is a hero pass sounds like some rs3bs

It is, and it brought a ton of rs3 refugees here.

Also sidenote. your completely wrong about the game always having disgustingly long grinds. when osrs started the longest possible grind was 30 hours of barrows. we have litteral 1000hour doom grinds, and the average grind for even a lvl 50 mid level unlock like a tome of water is 60 hours now. Thats the average now. think about that.

I mean the time investment to get anywhere of value in this game is insane, and then on top of that going 8x dry on an iron for example in cg adds fucking nothing of value. I played this game back in 2013 and was maxed back then, I came back only for iron as it adds something new to the game play. I'm fine with going dry and I'm fine with the hours needed to do stuff but then being like "nothing you want to do is worth doing without this one particular grind and this grind might take anywhere between 1 to upwards of 400 fucking hours if you get unlucky enough and then having to grind out other shit after that to with no guarantee of ever getting a drop is like insanity. It's the reason why people burn out and quit, I am fine with a 500 hour grind but I want to eventually hit the goal bro. You can say you sign up for it as an iron yeah but the whole reason you play iron is not solely for masochistically long grinds, but to be self sufficient is the core of the game mode and feel like you earned it. Anyone who does fucking 2k+ in red prison probably deserves a bowfa as they mastered the content and at that point have done enough time in the prison to get5 of them but because rng wasn't in their favor their stuck unable to do any of the other grinds in the game.

Damn this makes no sense Lmao god this is such a reach comparing this to sod and the drop rate example makes no sense because jagex didn't do crazy drop rates for anything relevant as the best or only way to obtain the items in the real old school era. You're not a boomer you're just disconnected from reality and conflating your opinions with fact. We're all dumber for having read this Some of us (like me) have been playing since 2004 if not earlier and believe it or not we lived through all of the changes and played the game. We know for example that super insane crazy drop rates didn't exist for the most part. Then when they did they were all irrelevant clue rewards or joke drops like d chains from dust devils. The idea that people actively go grind content for over a thousand hours for bis gear is a firmly new era idea. Real old-school drop rates are things like the kq d chain rates, barrows or if you want to move forward in time a bit gwd. They didn't start really changing that until Corp and even then that one stuck out of the crowd for a decade. Shit like the nightmare or cox or even the dwh are all post 2013 trends that look absolutely outrageous compared to what the game was like in ~2007 But yeah this whole reddit post is insane its basically trying to use a fabricated past to justify the modern game design by positioning it as if the new design is the old one thus must be preserved to save the old-school part of the game and some people are actually agreeing with it lmfao well played if it was intentional

Your post reminds me of those articles written by millionaires, in publications owned by billionaires, commenting on the lives of humble people. Cold and distant it sits atop a pedestal, glaring down at those it views as rabble. The poise and craft only a product of privilege, not genuine care. It emphasizes posturing over analysis. It mostly alludes to elements without breaking them down fully. It over relies on rhetoric to make points instead of data. The recent post on this sub showing a viz chart of the average hour totals of typical grinds was far more constructive. By all means your input is coherent and not without substance, but the pomp outweighing the analytical is always a bad ratio. So much so that it feels like the shadowy hand of propaganda disingenuously coaxing the vulnerable into fraught paradigms.

> In my opinion, bad luck mitigation is completely antithetical to the values of OSRS In my opinion, you're wrong. If you look at where OSRS was in 2013 versus now, yeah the players are definitely open to more changes. But then OSRS has always been about changing. And people were always bitching every time the game became easier. Which it always does with every single update (at least the ones that are polled). People were shitting on WT for ruining firemaking. People thought minigame teles were easyscape. People thought ZMI was too OP. People thought stash units should be off limits for UIM. There were even people seriously arguing to keep unid herbs, and removing them actually failed the first poll. Wasn't til the GE came in that unids got removed, and that GE update itself was VERY controversial too.

IMO *some* level of dry protection is a good thing. It can help prevent burnout and prevent individuals from being truly, horrifically unlucky. It helps make some content with awful drop rates more appealing. But it doesn't need to be anything crazy. Making a 1/X drop into 3 parts of 3/X drops doesn't change the averages, but stops the worst of the dryness problem and lets people keep making some progress.

Blaming RS3 refugees just feels like a scapegoat and is honestly kinda harmful to the game. Like would you want to switch to game where the "hardcore" players will just blame you (or any new players really) for perceived problems? It's no secret RS3 doesn't have a large playerbase compared to OSRS and only a fraction of that playerbase has migrated over to OSRS. So if you see 1000s of players supporting something, it is not like it is suddenly all new voices. If it really was that opposed to what the "true" OSRS players want/think, then they'd be shooting it down hard like you see with many dumb ideas (e.g., [Double Exp Weekend](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1ceptbc/double_exp_weekend_events/)). As for bad luck mitigation or whatever else you want to call it, I don't really know either way but I don't think it is a sign the game is going down hill because players are discussing it. Like the OSRS Team did just recently reduce a 1/5K to 1/3K and floated the idea of dupe protection, so it is not like this came out of nowhere. I'd agree that not everything should be made easy or "reasonable" to obtain, but bad luck mitigation doesn't need to make it so everything is reasonable and nothing is rare; it can make it so the already unreasonable doesn't turn into the absurdly unreasonable or never. I don't think I've seen a pitch for it where it just works without problems, but when we have grinds that are 1000s of hours on average, it really doesn't sound that crazy to at least consider and discussion potential mechanics to avoid that 1000 hours turning into 5000 or 10,000 without ever getting the drop.

I think WoW’s community is so dramatically different that it’s hard to compare the two. That being said I agree with the sentiment of this post. The devs lowering the “pass” metrics for voting isn’t a great sign either.

I agree comparing osrs to SoD is baffling to me And saying osrs is going through what SoD is Makes no sense to me

Yeah one of the games is getting regular meaningful updates

Posted to the community and polled to the community Takes their feedback and actively tries to make the game a reflection of what players want

You spend one day over on the classicwow sub and you’d think every single person absolutely hates the game they spend so much time playing

This was absolutely wild to me. It’s not like we had trouble getting content voted through it just raised the pass rate from probably 95% to 99%.

Devs lowered the pass rate specifically for all the new skill related stuff, there wasn't a purpose for it other than that.  It didn't matter for anything else, anything that makes the game easier always passes anyway and Jagex said like 7 years ago the community is too dumb and selfish to be allowed to vote on balance/game health. Polls currently only existed for the people who are mentally children in this games community to feel like they make any decisions lol.

People losing their shit over bad luck mitigation. The Reddit suggestion was a good suggestion as it doesn’t alleviate the grind, just makes it more likely you don’t go 10x dry on an item. Some people on this subreddit really struggle to read or have an original thought

Nobody played osrs in 2005 because of no bad luck mitigation what are we even talking about. It is not a core tenet of the game. Not even an iron, just let em get their megarares if theyre 2000 kc dry lol

The oldschool purists lost the moment we got things like zeah, gotr, rs2 content, etc. It turns out keeping the game stuck in an arbitrary unfinished backup is boring and runescape was never meant to be static.

Imagine playing rs and thinking thats a foundational pillar holy shit.

I just wanna point out that your assumption that we're losing more and more players and we're somehow at an all-time low is just completely wrong. Osrs has been hitting record numbers every few months. EoC is slowly losing players year over year but not by a huge percentage. EoC is hitting an all-time low, and osrs is hitting an all-time high, but their drop in players don't match our increase in new ones. There is barely any correlation between the two treandlines. So it's probably less that we're getting a lot of Rs3 refugees and more that we're just getting more new players in general.

No one tell him about the DT2 drop system

There is a lot of different mindsets in these threads. I think having mitigation for items that are non tradable like the gems/thread in TOA, isn't that bad. I think a bigger "problem" for the game is that players are just so good these days, and we have very powerful weapons that do incredible damage, that the balancing act to this is the extreme drop rates on some items. Jagex shouldn't have these crazy drop rates and instead should tweak odds a bit on newer content. I don't like drop rate mitigation on valuable tradable items and think this is a line that really shouldn't be crossed.

In the other hand, all the main offenders that have people ask for RNG mitigation (nightmare, CG, COX etc.) are all relatively recent additions. Fact is OSRS has gotten too big, with too much content, and people are getting upset by how unfeasible it is to complete them all.

Agree that bad luck mitigation is a bad idea. The drop rate should be the drop rate, theres beauty in the simplicity. They do however need to shift away from this mindset that drops need to be 1/1k+, and these ridiculous hundred+ hour grinds for specific items. (Mega weapons would be the exception, since they're literally the pinnacle items of the game, although Tbow being a 1000 hour grind is a bit steep, obviously). As many pointed out, that was never fundamental to oldschool.

Im a RS3 refugee and the whole point of me coming to OSRS was due to the prestigious value of pets and long grinds like maxing. Nothing in RS3 is impressive anymore not even a 4k zamorak. I love the grind, I went dry in many places in OSRS but with 20m hr at nex and Toa surely everyone can get all the items in the game if they put in the time and effort. I made a rs3 post wheb zamorak released and I have the dryest zamorak streak without a drop EVEN WITH THEIR INCREMENTING DROP MITIGATION. It goes from 80 kills to like 1/20 and I went 200 kill dry nearly 7-8x Mitigation doesn't change anything look at the DT2 bosses how garbage they are and how poorly implemented that system was. Can't even see the ring progress and the mitigation is completely irrelevant due to ingots sharing that drop table. Absolutely terrible, there's a reason you see people with no vestige double or triple drop rate still. It's not a fix and I don't think it should ever be implemented to catter to ironman

You say bad luck protection isn’t in line with original osrs. Yet look at the time investment required for BiS gear at launch vs now. Look at the time required to green log GWD, get firecape, dboots, etc. VS Nightmare, ToB, Cox, ToA, Hydra, CG, Inferno, Nex, and a dozen others that didn’t exist during “original osrs”. If we were “in line with original osrs” these drops would all be 10x less rare to begin with. I think bad luck protection is a nice middle ground between not making the game as easy as original osrs truly was, and still respecting the time investment required for these hyper inflated grinds.

This post is stupid the bad luck proposal would hardly affect much and would simply help make the small percentage of people going dry not quit I’m an osrs player through and through and I welcome such a healthy change

Never played rs3 or came from it. I support bad luck mitigation because I am an adult with a life and not enough time to go dry on something that might already take months to achieve at a regular rate (I can do maybe 5 cg a day for example). This game feels insulting sometimes with just how much time the devs think they can take from me. Ill just keep quitting for a year at a time and not paying memb, whatever. Or they can stop burning me out and respecting my time

Can you post your 1 def pure, your med level, your skilling pure, your uim 1 chunk, your maxed main, and your maxed hcim?

OSRS was NOT this drop-rate unfriendly for many years.

>In my opinion, bad luck mitigation is completely antithetical to the values of OSRS. As is the expectation that you should be able to get and complete anything you want in a reasonable amount of time. It seems like there is some kind of misunderstanding about this expectation. I don't think anyone thinks they should be able to complete the game ~~Although some people are certainly trying.~~ That wasn't my point either when making the bad luck mitigation posts. I just think that if a player wants to grind out an item, for whatever reason, the grind shouldn't arbitrarily become 6x as long, just because they're unlucky. OSRS has always been about the grind, and it should definitely stay that way. I love watching youtubers go for collection logs, or crazy stuff like the extreme 1-chunk grinds. But it's not healthy when those grinds triple, or quadruple for no reason other than bad luck.

IMO, bad luck mitigation is the sign of a bad system. If the drop rate is so low and uncommon that killing the boss/monster feels terrible, then the drop rate is way too low. Creating insanely rare drops just time gates rares and inflates the economy with common loot. It's okay to happen a little, but it should not make up most of the content of a game.

So /u/hablapata, why you calling yourself an OSRS boomer when you claimed to have just started **[playing 4 years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/e0eu21/i_started_playing_about_a_month_ago_i_think_i/)**? > In my opinion, bad luck mitigation is completely antithetical to the values of OSRS. As is the expectation that you should be able to get and complete anything you want in a reasonable amount of time If bad luck protection like the original post mentioned was enabled for CG, it would only affect 5% of the unluckiest people. 95% of people get it before; the rest are statistical anomalies that are stuck in a potentially year long grind for an item that is core to the game. In other words 1200KC at CG is already, in most people's opinion, extremely unreasonable. And those 5% would still not even be "guaranteed the drop." Half will continue to go as dry until the next step, then so on. You can always guarantee a drop after a certain number of KC, that's just how statistics and probability work. And it's fair to say an item like BofA, which many mid-game bosses are completely balanced around, shouldn't take 6 months of grinding the same boring ass content. And whatever, if you think the fact it's a pure slot machine is so important, then that's your opinion. > One of the most foundational pillars of this game is that no matter how much you grind for an item, you’re no closer than you started. Not true. Vorkath is guaranteed after 50, tattered KQ head after 256 (used for diary). There is now dupe protection throughout the game. Did you see outrage about that? Also, you can buy items on the normal mode of this game, so gold serves as bad luck protection. But no, a foundational pillar of this game is not pure random drops. It's simply that drops are good and rare. Bad luck protection that stops people from doing very unhealthy grinds is not antithetical to that. Helping the 5% of people that have to sit for extra months at CG matter for most people. If you're 1.1k dry at CG, or 12k dry at lizardmen shaman, you're already having an awful time and are a sorry statistical anomaly. Gatekeeping and saying people are blaming it on RS3 refugees is laughable when, if your RSN is still Rat Slappah, you're a 1.8k main with no impressive KC to speak for. Glad to see your iron account and check out what you've accomplished, though.

Bad luck prevention won't change the game for you if you don't even understand why it is needed in the first place Also, funny how your tune changed in a couple years: https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/C9ltg9AqO7

Peoples opinions do tend to change over a a few years.

Not everyone becomes part of the "I got mine" crowd.

Just simply stating an opinion changing over a few years is quite normal. So I’m just not sure what you’re trying to prove here. Like good on ya the guy changed his mind after two years?

what part of me saying new players keep the game alive is incompatible with what i’m saying here? unless you’re arguing that recent buffs truly have been to cater to players from other mmos. is there not a spectrum between ‘make sure our community isn’t bullying out new players’ and ‘generally make the game easier?’ that post is literally about making new early level content catered to new players. that seems extremely compatible with me also saying that we shouldn’t make end game grinds even easier just for the sake of it.

Saying it makes the game easier is a blatant lie. If people can get a 1kc tbow, making it so 5k is the worst end of luck rather than 10k doesn't make a god damn difference. You still do 5000x as much work as someone else for the same reward if you actually manage to stick it out.

As someone who spent 1 literal year locked at CG, i still don’t want bad luck mitigation.

As someone who green logged in 27kc, I do want bad luck mitigation

The issue is the same as modern wow had and eventually ruined it for all the old players. Accessibility. Not everyone should have every item in the game/every skill maxed. The game was never intended to be that way. If you want an item work for it. As an iron you are not supposed to own every megarare in the game and greenlog every boss. You can if you want, it will take a long ass time but you dont NEED it. You can do all the content in the game without a megarare. You dont NEED bowfa. if you want an item work for it, if you pick an ironman then unlucky but thats the mode you chose to play. As a main you can always grind bosses that arent lottery tickets such as vorkath/hydra and even cox to an extent cause there are a lot of valuable drops on that table. And after your grind you can just BUY the item, dry or not. I don't think we should ever cater to ironmen or cloggers. This whole I pay so I deserve to get the same thing as someone who player 12 hours a day is such a bad mindset and ruined WoW imo. Going dry sucks, i know as I am personally over 250 KC at cox without a single purple. Do I want bad luck mitigation in the game? Fuck no. I don't feel entitled to a drop. I enjoy the raid so I keep doing it. But somewhere along the line people have lost the ability to have fun. Nobody plays this game for fun anymore. They just mindlessly grind some content to satisfy their need to complete a goal, whether it sucks or not. And then they will come to reddit to complain about how bad their 1-85 agility grind was. Or how the KQ shortcut should be a hard requirement cause its painful to do a few KQ kills until they get their head. (you already got the pity drop so stop complaining, if you dont enjoy it dont do it.) If you want to play this game as efficiency scape and throw any notion of fun out of the window, be my guest. But don't come to reddit to complain. Nobody told you to grind 2000 CG in one go. This game has so much content that any new player would get overwhelmed and yet you chose to grind 2000 CG without doing anything else this entire time. When I get bored of a boss, I just go to another boss. Who cares if I get the drop or not, it will come and if I go dry it will feel so much better and unexpected when I do get it. Personally I think going away from a 75% vote majority was a bad change. There are too many people that are allowed to vote for content they cant even/wont even do, or never will do. People that vote but have absolutely no idea of the impact or even understand the implications. And just like in the way of world of warcraft, if you cater to the casuals the hardcore audience wont stick around because it becomes to easy, there is no more fun to be had, everything you worked so hard and long for is now a shell of itself. Meanwhile the casuals that barely play and demand everything given to them dont stick around either because, well they are casuals and never had a deep interest in the game anyway. So you end up with your core audience hating what the game has become and the casuals leaving cause its too easy/they got bored and move on to the next game. Maybe it's an elitist take but thats why i stopped playing WoW after MoP, when they added raid loot from Facebook type mission games on your war table. And now people can get max gear in a week after hitting max level. All sense of progression is gone. And I feel like runescape is going the same direction. I don't know if the influx of RS3 players is the reason, probably not cause it's been going on for a while, ever since we added money snake that devalued all sources of skilling with the absurd drop tables, after that came the skeletal wyvern droptable rework, 700k/h absolutely absurd for the amount of effort required at the time. Now? Nobody is there as a post illustrated a while ago cause it got powercreeped into oblivion with GP/h. So bad that bots don't even touch it anymore and then you know its miserable. So if you get this much more gp/h from regular content then why are people complaining about going dry? have prices of items skyrocketed in recent years? Maybe a bit. Stuff like bandos went from 18m for a BCP to 30m, tassets actually went down, but I'd say most items except the megarares have been pretty stable. (I think adding Tbow to the item sink was the worst thing they ever did). So fuck easyscape, that already exists in the form of RS3. Where you have your toolbelts, moneypouches, 2m/h skilling methods, and if you don't like the combat system you can play on legacy mode. I get we need changes to keep the game fresh, but it should be in new content and more stuff to do. Not making the game easier. /end rant

Crazy the stuff that gets upvoted here now. Feels like people want the main game to be like a league these days. Bad luck mitigation, dupe protection, stackable clues, unlimited run energy.... People would have scoffed that these are even ideas a few years ago.

Leagues pushed the Overton window so far along that it's features will come to this game before you know it. This game is becoming unrecognisable, one buff at a time.

The game isn’t designed to be completed and has never been designed around Ironman mode nor should it be.. bad luck mitigation was essentially someone goes dry at one place someone goes dry at another place but they both make money from going dry and can buy the other item they need. Ironmen choosing to limit themselves and then complaining that it takes too long is like the guy putting a stick in his own spokes meme

I don’t understand why people are hating on rs3 now. I started hating rs3 when they did the squeal of fortune 10 years ago. Haven’t looked back since….

It's baffling to me how people actively choose to play a game that they don't like and then try changing it to fit their needs instead of just switching to a game that already delivers them the experience they seek.

For real, a year ago i'd visit the subreddit only for entertainment purposes. Each post was funny as hell, memes flying around, community being wholesome as always, penguin facts, coffees being poured into assholes, the guy that wants the bad boi stance over and over... Now it's "Why dont we make this easier jagex", "My new suggestion for new teleport jagex", "Jagex you've fucked up on this one", "Wildy changes bla bla", "Why is agility 200 hours jagex double the rates", "Bad luck mitigation" (I personally hate this one the most), "Jagex make clues stackable","Jagex remove run energy".... No offense but i wish they'd go back honestly.

I think a lot of it comes from having a polling system tbh. The game designers have a more unbiased healthy look at the game than an average player, but this game puts a loooot of choices in game development into the players’ hands. Too much imo. Did the developers make a mistake once over a decade ago? Sure. Does that mean the average player knows more than them about how to make a good game? Not at all. This community has shown time and time again they’d vote in their own self interests to make something in the short term much quicker and easier for them to get the dopamine release faster, even if it’s bad to longterm game health and makes them burn out and get bored easier. And they’ve been left relatively unchecked on it that I think it has just become ingrained to some (obvious not all or even most, but some) players that everything they want should become a part of the game.

Brainrotted dopamine chasers

I don't think the game will break if the drop rate simply starts becoming a little bit more common the more dry you go. Sorry but no one should go 2k cox dry and not be any closer to getting a tbow drop. The only people I can see becoming truly affected are those that literally spend their entire lives on osrs grinding out every raid drop, PNM etc... I can see a change like this causing a life crisis for them, but for normal players it would only benefit.

I personally dont have any strong feelings over the bad luck mitigation, but I wouldn't be against it if implemented. I think it'd be a necessary, healthy change. As one of the players who has played since 2004 and seeing how far along the game has come... the insane drop rates of Runescape ARE a unique feature, but it doesn't carry over well into ironman mode. Not after 20 years' worth of updates and content. I think that comparing OSRS to Wold of Warcraft is a terrible example. Because in WoW, once a new expansion comes out, ALL previous content outside that patch becomes irrelevant outside of completionists. In WoW, ToA's release would've meant that ToB and CoX are old content and dead. In OSRS, that just means there are now 3 insane raiding grinds to be completed. You can join WoW at any time and, reasonably, catch up within a patch and be relevant in new content. In OSRS, the end goal of obtaining necessary items and gear just grows on and on and on, making it near insurmountable for your average player. We're already talking YEARS of committed game play just to catch up to end-game. \~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~ anywho \~\~\~\~\~\~\~\~ As a normal account, the super rare droptable system worked and still works. Success in 1 grind can funnel money into buying the loot from other grinds you're not doing. You don't need to kill Bandos if you do a lot of Sara godwars and sell off a crossbow to buy tassets. But needing to complete every individual grind on an ironman is reaching a point where we DO need to discuss bad luck mechanics, as the number of grinds in this game is getting to be too much. Now, i'll confess, I actually have it easier than most ironmen accounts because my UIM physically can't do all the grinds i'd like, as I can't hold onto all the items I'd want. The game mode saves me from the pressure of having 100 different items to grind. And then I see other - normal - irons go through every item that they need or want, it's starting to reach a breaking point. Bad luck mechanics does not make the game "easy," it's going to hopefully save folks from needlessly wasting even more time beyond what grinds already demand of us in this game.

Autumn elegy still plays lol

Old players must have double voting power over RS3 refugees. This is OLD SCHOOL runescape after all. They can fork the game again to cater to the newer players if they want.

[удалено]

The "slippery-slope" argument doesn't have a foundation. Edit: You either don't understand math (how little this affects the game as a whole) or you've got some paranoia over nothing.

Yea I think any system that added dry mitigation to existing rare drops would probably kill the game singlehandedly. It is absolutely ridiculous that there are people who want that. I get wanting systems like dt2 bosses and muspah, because those are dry mitigation in exchange for luck mitigation, but wanting just to avoid going dry but still allow super lucky drops is absurd.

Kill the game singlehandedly? I think you severely overestimate how much people outside of reddit care about this

If anything it would make it more popular because the OSRS grind is truly that foul Can't ruin the game when it's mathematically impossible to finish the collection log unless you want to ruin your life lmao

It would almost certainly make the game more popular. The no changes doomers are huffing serious copium.

It sounds like you hate the game “the OSRS grind is truly that foul”

New players do not care about droprates. It's a problem only the most hardcore NEETs run into in the first place. I would bet that 99% of these people commenting have never even done most bosses / content to droprate anyways. The people most vocal however only play Runescape, even at work, an unhealthy amount, and now want the game catered to them after rolling Ironman knowing that's what they signed up for. Bad luck protection is a bandaid fix to two problems - botting and Ironman Mode. If Ironman Mode is growing so fast that Jagex wishes to cater to them, that's fine, just let it be an Ironman Mode only system and remove droptrading so it doesn't effect the Main economy in anyway. And I do realize it's a small effect on the economy, but it completely changes the FEEL of the game. Going from "Oh sick I got lucky" to "Welp just 400 more Barrows runs and I got all the gear" is more significant than you would think on the mentality people engage this game with. Botting is what causes all these droprates to be insane as well and is the issue I wish this community would finally put its foot down about and not stop until a change is made. Botting also ruins a Main's experience and how they engage with skilling, GP/h, etc. It's the core cause of half of this.

Dosent it only increase drops coming into the game by 1-5%? I don’t really understand how it would kill the game

Or just increase the drop rate to make the average the same. Keep the mean, decrease the variance. I suppose that could be less fun for those who get lucky, but would save the poor souls going 5x the drop rate.

OP you forgot that people on Reddit are a vocal minority.

Bad luck mitigation is only being looked at as a good thing because Jagex insists on putting insane drop rates into the game. Stop making drop rates so unhinged, and go back to address a few broken ones, and no one will "need" bad luck mitigation.

jagex needs to focus on making other aspects of the game like skilling minigames and pvp more appealing to endgame pvm grind loop players. rather than trying to keep the players on a treadmill of side grade bis which they keep rate limited with aberrant drop rates. the bis loop threatens to turn the game into a modern vertical progression mmo

I agree, it would be great if minigames were more popular these days. I think an LMS style game that wasn't tribrid or a castle wars/soul wars style game without ancient magic would be very popular if they had good rewards and were just fun to play.

I am 100% sure that the only people who are serious about wanting bad luck mitigation are 1500 total level andys with sub 500 boss kc or rs3 refugees. I really hope nothing as game changing comes out.

Go outside for a bit bro, difficulty of a game should not be tied to an arbitrary RNG aspect that disrespects your finite time of being alive. Better to design actually hard content and leave the pointless 50+ hour grinds that have zero challenge tied to them beyond time behind.

>I don't like people's opinions and suggestions so it must be the RS3 players coming to OSRS every time Anyway, the OSRS playerbase is ageing, and people don't have time to play 16 hours a day to get somewhere in a reasonable timeframe. Meanwhile the game isn't getting that much faster or streamlined, and all players see from content creators is progress at an unreasonable rate. So these ideas are going to pick up steam eventually. It has nothing to do with RS3 players.

As a 15 year veteran with two 2000 total accounts and a 1000 total UIM, I couldn't agree with you less. The end game is straight up unfun. I don't want to kill any boss 2000 times. That's the same thing every day for multiple months. That's not good content, that's time filler. I can play helldivers and unlock a better weapon in an hour. I'm not saying OSRS should be that bad but getting a unique in a week or two playing 2-3 hours a day should be normalized. Drop rates just keep getting more absurd for no reason, other than to keep the game interesting for what feels like, only streamers.

I think you're starting to realize the pro's and con's of having a game dictated by player polling. As soon as your values no longer align with the majority's, the game suddenly becomes a lot less appealing. I've played since 2004 and my favorite era of the game was 2006 back when PvP and skilling were the focus of the game. PvM wasn't really a thing yet. I found myself having less and less fun in both RS2 and OSRS once GWD was released and PvM completely dominated the meta, killing both PvP and skilling in one fell swoop. Monotonously farming bosses basically just turns the whole game into a RNG slot machine game with different skins and jackpot rates, which isn't very fun for me. But the majority of players have seemed to enjoy it for the past decade, so I've let them have their fun while I enjoy other games. It sounds like it might be your turn to start looking at other games too, once you're no longer in the majority.

i’ve been having this concern quite a bit about osrs in recent years as well. it’s a pretty sad realization to come to that you’ve been pushed away from a game you always played

You’re absolutely right that anti-dry mechanics are antithetical to the balance of PvM vs Skilling. Skilling has clear, defined, steady progress. PvM you could get something 1kc or 10,000kc. I think the whole “Best in Slot” obsession has led to a mindset that every single player should be able to obtain every single rare item, instead of just a “man it’d be cool if I got a rare item from this boss”. Like it was an investment and now it’s an expectation

Despite not agreeing with you on bad luck mitigation, you are right about RS3 refugees swaying public opinion here as they are trying to make OSRS into RS3 without MTX instead of going back to RS3 or playing other games.

Devs need to not humour the RS3 refugees IMO. Go play one of the other million games that are like 3 and stop ruining the only game we have.

It's wild to me to think that rs3 is dying and the community comes here and tries to bring that games ideals and philosophy here. There two games for a reason, and its way more than the EOC boogeyman. Also compounded with any game that gets big enough, you have more people who just want what is good for them and to hell with game health and integrity. Buff everything, give me things now. We've honestly been lucky the core devs think about these things, but theres only so much they can do when they are listening to a large amount of feedback like they do.

The 'spirit of the game' is only relevant to players and stakeholders insofar as it keeps player counts high. If X change results in more players joining and staying, I fail to see how you'd convince people that's bad, unless you're arguing it would result in some long term harm. Moreover, never once have I logged on and thought to myself 'man I love osrs because it's the only game where I can waste hundreds of hours going dry on some niche item', I'm more than willing to bet I'm not in the minority on that either.

I don't think we are at some sort of SoD type situation. I see plenty of Rs3 refugees agreeing with some of the old school crowd on things.. the most recent one is the potion of Goading (aggro pot) a lot of Rs3 people are heavily against it as they have seen what it did to slayer on rs3 and don't want that. As for the bad luck mitigation aspect of the post. I mean yeah i don't think we need it.. the game has functioned without it the entire time. However i do agree with some things that make logical sense like adjusting some drop rates on a small select number of bosses Nightmare being the main thing. I did like what they did with perilous moons dupe protection that is more in line of what i think we should be doing instead but carefully.

Having pure rng drops back when barrows was endgame content vs now where we have dozens of pvm content to grind through isn't the same thing at all. If anything the I would argue bad luck mitigation brings things *more* in line with the classic rs feel, not less. Think about what the big grinds were back in 2007, maxing skills, making money, maybe getting a quest cape. All of those things gave consistent reward for time spent and constant progress towards goals. The feeling of being just as far from your goal at 1 hour in vs 1000 didn't apply to most grinds.

I think bad luck mitigation is reasonable for irons that can’t buy themselves out of bad luck via gold. Bad luck for mains can be circumvented with the GE.

The game definitely struggles with an identity crisis. It’s split between mains and irons. Bad luck mitigation doesn’t matter for mains since they can buy items as long as they’re making gp on whatever content. Bad luck mitigation would be great for irons but could change the in game economy for the people who give a shit about in game gold. My personal opinion on this is that irons shouldn’t be able to deiron or drop trade and there should be bad luck mitigation of some form (personally I’d like guaranteed drops after some KC but there are definitely other options) for irons only. Bad luck mitigation is really only an iron concern since you can’t buy your way out of going dry on whatever gear you’d like to use. If your argument is that bad luck mitigation is antithetical to OSRS, that’s reasonable but the game is moving away from the 2007 clone that was launched in 2013. In my experience, the user base now would rather have good game design and good interactions with content than have things remain as they are for the sake of nostalgia.

The change is because we are all becoming old farts. The items/clogs are more fun than the grind to get them. We find active ways to not play the game.

im more of a old school boomer...  raids with their new implementation of dodge mechanic is not old school, its unfamiliar and nonexistent in RS2.   RS2 bossing died when CoX released. Every boss released to this date is only using their new combat mechanic