It was still a shit boss, there was just more of a reason to do it. I just did KQ with the home tele method and I’m so happy I got spooned the head because that boss is trash.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the mechanics weren't bad. I just meant there was a lot more reason to do it when it dropped something meaningful. I remember going in massive groups all wearing full Verac's. Every so often, somebody would just die because they got focused for too long lol.
You have to remember that you were at the very least duoing her too so all drops were split. You were also eating like 25 sharks a kill or trip which was a lot back then.
No house for full heal/poison cure.
No fairy ring so you had to run from shanty.
No diaries so you had to bring ropes.
No stams so you had to walk part of the cave.
No piety.
etc etc.
People go "it was only 1/128 that's easy" and then realize 1/128 was insane back then with how shit we were at the game, how low KPH things were in comparison, etc.
Nah it wasn't that bad. Granted a lot of people did suck but there were still small teams that actually played the game relatively correctly. A lot of people have this view because they were dumb kids with super mediocre combat stats and terrible gear because they were afraid to die that were just ass at the game but that didn't actually apply to everyone in the context of being able to get a group together to consistently kill kq
It was super worth it. You think people weren't down to go grab a d chain and split it for 30m+ depending on exactly when you were doing this? At that point in time that was basically getting a tbow is now value wise. The funny thing is even if your group was legit bad and it was over 10 mins/kill that's still way easier and faster than the things we do today. CG is like ~7-8 mins for most people and its a 1 in 400 lmao
I mean it was only "worth it" in the sense that it was good for 8 months.
Then we got barrows which shit on it not only by tanking the value of D chain, but by giving you way better sets, with lower requirements to kill and better gp/hr, even if you got the same "10 mins per kill as KQ" because people were banking via ecto.
And then 5 months after barrows, we got DKs which was the best money maker pvm wise until GWD and the same groups that could do KQ efficiently just did DKs instead.
At which point, even with 15m~ D chains, no one really bothered with the boss besides people who just wanted to get the drop to see it, the very same people who would be farming KQ nowadays to green log it regardless of how long it takes.
d chain was over 20m until gwd released almost and over 30 while barrows was out for like a year. People didn't stop buying them until the bcp replaced it. There was a brief panic for a short time before they made barrows degrade. You're forgetting most of 05 06 and like half of 07 in the timeline of the price here lol
Actually having just reread all of this I'm not even sure why you're talking to me about the gp/hr of kq vs barrows vs dks to begin with. I'm just making the point that grinds then vs now were much shorter and easy in comparison. I don't really care about perfectly defining during which years/months doing kq between 04 and 07 was the best gp/hr compared to alternatives when in my example I was talking about the d chain when it was actually worth gp anyways and saying that it wasn't that hard to get one
It was also worth it back then.
People wouldn't do that now, because KQ gives nothing.
People would do it if it was a competitive moneymaker or source of a BIS, like it was back then.
It wasn't that bad, especially when Verac's released a few months later. But back then you actually had more players wanting to do bosses together. Like there weren't any "go solo this boss in an instance to print millions per hour", so finding some friends to go kill KBD or KQ for those drops worth millions was pretty fun. And even with nooby stats, the bosses really weren't that terrible in a team. They only suck soo much these days because no one wants to kill them so we're stuck soloing bosses intended to be killed by groups...
They were intended to be killed in groups, but they no longer are. Ironmen for example have to solo the bosses as players tagging will result in no loot, it's the same with GWD outside of nex.
Yah, I understand why but it is still kinda sad to see. Like I miss seeing stuff like 5 noobs in rune with dragon weapons killing KBD; these days if they tried, they'd probably get crashed by a maxed main hunting for the pet or such...
Because "bossing" was not a term back then. KQ was actually a true adventure against unfair boss. Long walk with your friends through the kalphite lair, then getting smacked with unavoidable damage. Me and my friends were doing TRIPS to kill a single KQ because she was so strong. Rune plate, legs, d long + granite shield, pots + food. Nothing more, because if you die, you will not be able to get back for your items in time. Brutal, but amazing times.
Not to mention Barrows. It is still kinda wild that they added such a massive upgrade to Dragon gear, which keep in mind only consisted of Med Helm, Chainbody, and Sq Shield at the time, at such a common rate from such an easy boss. When players did raise concern about it devaluing the much rarer dragon items, their solution wasn't to make the drops way rarer, but to make the armor degrade so Dragon still held a niche. Doubt OSRS players would ever be happy with that sort of thing these days...
Funny you don’t mention the GE, like 7x DPS compared to back in the day, the ability to stay in the same place for a much longer time due to near infinite healing, and the community just getting better at the game.
Back then you’d two inventory 1 KQ kill in like 15 minutes. Now you can get a solo kill in under a minute without using food.
The biggest modern offenders of this are cg and virtus robes. Everything else with drop rates that high are either fast/easy kills or raids, which should be rare drops.
50-60ish hrs for one of the most versatile weapons in the game only second in it’s combat style to arguably the best weapon in the game and not by a THAT of a huge difference, doesn’t sound that bad tbh
With good stats and t1 prep its closer to 8-9kph
I agree that enhanced drop rate is quite high but cg is high enough gph that you can afford an enhanced way before you go that dry.
1/400 isn’t high at all tbh, this subs just really showing it’s colours. 1/400 is a fantastic deal for bowfa. Total levels and boss logs should reaaally be on display to comment on some posts
That's the whole point, isn't it? An iron looking to get bowfa with no rigour to start doing some endgame bossing will realistically get ~5kph (with a minute or two of downtime), so a bowfa is expected at around 80 hours. That's reasonable for a strong weapon.
Outliers won't get it until 4x, 5x, 6x the drop rate though. Suddenly, you're not there for like a month grinding it out, but more like 6 months. It's a burnout moment. The entire proposal is to increase the drop rate slightly for those rare cases, so the average drop rate is barely affected, while those people don't have to wait until 3k kc to get their bowfa
Maxed main, 2100+ uim, 372 cg kc at the UIM for bowfa
Yeah and the drop rates would still be a 1/500 if whip was BIS. Turns out you have to increase drop rates to match new BIS or the game would just be RS3
1/512 for whip on an enemy that you can kill in 3 hits, or afk for hours in sub optimal gear.
1/1000 from a multi boss encounter that takes a minimum 20-minute average from fully geared and max effort individuals.
Why do you "have" to do that?
Newer bosses are longer and have significantly worse rates.
Why?
It's not to avoid being rs3. it's because nothing would have value with the number of bots that fund the GE for all the mains. More bots have green logged revs than real players at this point, it's tragic.
And whip is a terrible example because it was never from a boss in the first place, so the time to farm it is significantly reduced. If it was only from a boss, like for example the zaryte crossbow which is 2 different boss grinds, then it would have taken a long time at 1 in 500.
You didn’t read my comment correctly.
I said bosses back in the day had better drop rates because the current BIS was a whip.
The old bosses are faster to kill today because of the changes in BIS which explains why drop rates are worse.
Always with the RS3 with you dudes..how does that even make sense? Most of the drop rates are honestly reasonable at around 1/500 or so, there's just some outliers that are a bit ass, like corp (who shouldn't even be in OSRS) or Nightmare, with some arguable ones like virtus. Time for completion on raid logs is a bit whack too but honestly reasonable considering it's not designed with ironmen/cloggers in mind and provides the best in slot for like the next 5 or so years (I would imagine). Still, it wouldn't hurt to have some of the 1/1000+ drop rates tweaked a little (yes I know DWH and nightmare is being tweaked slightly).
I mean it's whatever in the grand scheme of things but, 1/1000+ drop rates ain't 07RS.
There's a large difference between 1/500 on a monster that takes < 1 minute to kill and 1/500 on a raid that takes 20-40 minutes to complete depending on the one you are referring to.
Seeing as he said “boss” drop not “raid drop” and seeing as Raids are a new concept in general so there is no comparable raid from back in the day, I don’t see what point you are making.
Well, since you are talking semantics, your comment specifically referred to weapons that are BIS. The only real-life example we have of this is from raids. We can see what the drop rate difference for an original BIS weapon from 07 is vs. what the current BIS weapon and compare them in reality. Technically, the time sink for a BIS weapon in old school is significantly higher than the time sink to obtain the BIS weapon in 07. Also, technically, you mentioned the whip, which is not a boss drop. It is obtained from a normal mob, so if you want semantics, then your original comment is just as nonsensical of a reply to the original comment as my reply is to yours, semantically speaking.
I'm like 1400 kc on Goraks in the gorak plane trying to get shield half for my iron. Got like 6 d spears. Things 1/200. 1/200 isnt a crazy droprate, you can always get super unlucky. I've also been insanely lucky with super spoon for enhanced crystal wep seed, so it goes both ways. but like if I went this dry on a boss I'd have stopped farming it a long time ago.
I couldn't imagine actually doing goraks for shield left half outside of leagues, how do you not have one from slayer? I'm not even that high and I have several. I got 2 in one task once.
God bless modern bosses having tick reaction mechanics while also being long ass fights and mutagen drop rates for their noncosmetic uniques.
We truly live in the golden era.
Most drops are reasonable, but not all. Folks aren't asking for dry protection because of Abyssal Whip, they are asking because of things like Enhance Seed and Virtus.
Also, I don't think anyone is really complaining about it for stuff like DFH or Eternal Glory either. Like if we did add some type of bad luck mitigation, I think most players would be fine with leaving those minor/cosmetic sort of items out of it.
Right? Fucking imagine doing 2000 corrupted gauntlets for a bowfa because Ironman sounded dope when getting a BGS was endgame.
That's 20000 minutes assuming you never die once.
That's 330 hours of your life spent to get a weapon that you need to properly do so much content
A lot of drops are reasonable but a lot aren’t, even on drop rate. Especially if it’s a boss that takes 5 minutes to kill and re-gear for an average player.
This game said “yeah this one single item here, that isn’t even BIS but it’s still important in your journey? Fuck it, spend weeks on just this one item”. Unless you’re a content creator who gets paid to play the game all day, you just can’t make meaningful progress.
The drop rates and time needed to do most shit in Osrs is actually straight up disrespectful of our time, just because some code has an insane number on it. Glad this is starting to come up in more convos because the game itself is incredible apart from this. I’d play and pay for 3-4 accounts if I didn’t have to spend literal weeks on one single item or late game upgrades. Insane.
Likewise I love the concept of ironman but I don’t like the sheer amount of time required to accomplish practically anything. Cutting that time sink down means I’d be playing an ironman.
Of course, that’s part of why I love leagues, so I just play the shit out of those.
We all suffer because of people who play an unhealthy amount, when a new content is released they will have all rares logged with pets 2-3 weeks later.. The thing is they need to please the max accs that play 40+ hours a week as well. I think they should make rare cosmetics or pet transmogs, like a 1/10,000 golden vorkath or it's guaranteed at 10k kills..
Also players complain if drops are any easier because the new t85 wep should be much more rarer than a wep that could take 400 hours to obtain, so that effect snowballs... Players will complain their t bow is devalued because the new bow takes 100 hours and it should take minimum 500 since t bow is averaging around 300-550 hours. So the new wep is now 550-1000 hour grind. Looks at soul reaper axe, you need to kill 4 difficult bosses at 1/800 - 1/1k for each piece. From now on it gets worse and worse.
This is the correct solution.
Stuff like DWH and Imbued heart are excessively powerful, have almost no requirements, and are locked behind getting lucky when grinding trash mobs. Fix that design issue at the source, and there is no need for a wonky bandaid and feels-bad solution like bad luck mitigation.
If the content is so shit that no one wants to do it if they don't get spooned, then the content is shit and should be adjusted. If even ironmen don't want to interact with a certain piece of content then you know it's giga shit.
By buying items and skipping the content all you're doing is leaning on bots to farm shit content for you, indirectly supporting bot farms.
The amount of wonky bad luck mitigation mental gymnastics needed vs. right-click "trade" that has existed since day 1 of rs classic
Sure man. You're obviously the clever guy here.
Having not played osrs for over a year now (and not planning to come back til sailing is out), I honesty don’t miss the drop rates.
It’s actually INSANE the amount of time some people have spent trying to get a dwh on an iron for example. Literal HUNDREDS of hours. Like ?????? Doing one thing, over, and over, and over, and over…
You know what else you can do in 100+ hours of not killing shamans? Play all of BG3 or another large game like Elden Ring to completion. Yet on osrs it’s perfectly normal to play for sooooo many hours of your life doing just 1 tiny piece of content (“tiny” as dwh is a substantial upgrade).
It’s honestly ridiculous and I really think OSRS players need to sit down and actually think about the amount of time it takes. Cause reading 200 hours on a screen doesn’t do it justice to just how much time that is.
Yeah it's the main thing that's made me hit a brick wall of enjoyment on my Ironman. Once you kill thousands of shamans and could potentially need to kill ten thousand more it's like bleh.. Plus thanks to jumps and spawns you have to pay attention
Took me 12363 pickpockets for my first blood shards. Was literally like a week straight of pickpocketing
I went 2400 kills for a 1/800 zombie axe. That's a really dry log. People have gone triple dry on lots worse logs too, like Lizardmen Shamans, Barrows looking for a specific class of item, basically any item worth collecting. Hundreds of hours have been wasted on a random number generator that decides it's taking the piss and not gonna generate the right number for the item even after thousands of kills over rate. There are very few games that disrespect player's time like this game does.
Had a friend who went 12k+ KC on Lizardman Shamans for DWH. He was on a main and was driven purely out of spite. And if it wasn’t for the fact that he has a work from home job that lets him play damn near all day, then he’d probably still be on that grind even though that was several months ago.
Yeah but on a normie account it's fine if you get two Bandos Chestplates, you can sell one and buy your tassets. On an ironman, the second chestplate is useless (not really but you get the point)
dry protection by design must add spoon protection, there is no way around it. The median drop rate must increase. On top of that, your chance of a drop now improves with kc. This turns the main grind from grind whatever you want, change boss whenever, to match that of an iornman, grind until you receive a drop or lose out on that built up drop chance because every kill would actually get you closer to a drop.
The DT vestige drops are an example of a dry protection system (a pretty bad one). A lot less people will go 2 or even 3 times dry, but there is a huge reduction in people getting early drops.
> dry protection by design must add spoon protection, there is no way around it. The median drop rate must increase
Not necessarily
If you address the tailend of the bell curve, the 2-3x+ rate, you can leave the spoons completely the same and only change the average drop rate by ~5%
Vestige system was bad. But I think a combination is viable. I’ve said for a bit that if you roll drops normally and as a vestige system simultaneously and if you roll the regular drop normally, your vestige progress resets, you would only really affect those with doomed dry streaks
I think there is problems with dryness protection. Primarily how it works with teams and being incentivized to not raid with people who got a drop recently. But even that just means people who are dry get more teammates and that’s fine.
It’s not as clean as a bunch of the Reddit noobs think but there’s a way to navigate this I do think
Dry protection must have some level of spoon protection. There is no way around it.
You can’t hide that behind lower drop rates, to move the tail end of the distribution in you must also move other parts out to maintain the drop rate.
You haven’t really explained why
If you’re arguing that dryness protection would mean Jagex would want to nerf drop rates ~5% in general I *could* see that. I don’t necessarily see that as spoon protection however.
Spoon protection is actively preventing spooning like the vestige mechanic. Worse drop rates isn’t really that. People will still spoon. Basically no one really spoons DT2 rings.
I would argue however that you don’t *need* to nerf drop rates. The average drop rate would theoretically be 5% lower or so. However, this assumes every person does the boss long enough to realize the dryness protections. I’d argue the vast majority of people will not.
Going 3x rate is rare not just because it’s only a 5% chance or whatever. But also because many people don’t bother and tap out before that. Not every person who would go 3x rate will get there. And every one who doesn’t will not increase the average drop rate across the game.
Theoretically it would. But in practice, it won’t.
So instead of doing something fun like GWD you're saying I should just be killing green dragons for noted bones in the wilderness for hundreds of hours instead?
In that case, goodbye OSRS I'll go play something else.
I mean, if you're not making money because you have bad luck, that doesn't quite work. Mains don't do bosses to get the unique to use; they do bosses to get the uniques to sell... So if you don't get the uniques, you're not making money (at least not as much). In some places, you'll even go negative if you don't see drops.
And sure, you can "just go do something else", but do we really want to be encouraging players to just grind moneyprinters like Vorkath or such instead of doing bosses with RNG? Like if we want there to be a good variety of bosses to farm, the ones with their profit coming from rare drops need to feel worth it compared to the ones with consistent profit and if the drops skew too rare, then that won't be the case. (Something something Nightmare...)
While you're right there a few of those bosses where you go either +-0 or straight negative, nightmare I think might be the worst offender. But that sounds like a nightmare specific problem and not a rework all boss loot in the game problem.
Point remains though you have options as a main account. You can do the grind if you really want to, or you can do an intense pvm method or a chill but slower one, or even skilling in some cases etc.. ironmen don't have these options, yes that's part of the gamemode but maybe something could be done so you don't have to go like 8x dry for the absolute worst offenders.
> I mean, if you're not making money because you have bad luck, that doesn't quite work. Mains don't do bosses to get the unique to use; they do bosses to get the uniques to sell... So if you don't get the uniques, you're not making money (at least not as much). In some places, you'll even go negative if you don't see drops.
The problem is you are building drop potential with dry protection. Currently it doesn’t matter how many kill you have, every kill has the same chance of receiving a drop, there is no cost to switching bosses, with dry protection there is, it doesn’t matter what system is used, every kill gets you closer to the drop. So now as a main you have to farm to a boss till you get a drop.
> So now as a main you have to farm to a boss till you get a drop.
No, this is because the propsed system only kicks in at 3x drop rate, so this isn't actually true, and then its still random, it's not a predetermined kill count.
> with dry protection there is, it doesn’t matter what system is used, every kill gets you closer to the drop
That is not how it has to work at all... Dry protection wouldn't guarantee a drop; it would just make the rate more common the more dry you go. For example, say you got a 1/1K drop. If you don't have it by 1K KC, the drop rate is still 1/1K. If you don't have it by 1.5K KC, the drop rate is still 1/1K. If you get to 2K KC without the drop, double the rate, then the drop rate could get buffed by 50% to 1/666. It would stay 1/666 until 3K KC, triple the rate, where it would be increased by double or 100% to 1/500. Then it could stay 1/500 until 4K KC, 4x the rate, where it would go to 1/400. Still don't get one by 5K KC, five times the rate? Then it could go to 1/333 and maybe this would be as low as it goes.
You could still do another 5K Kills and be at 10K KC without hitting that 1/333, but your odds are 3x better than when it was 1/1K. Once you get the drop, the rate would reset back to 1/1K, but if you went dry on it again, the same cycle could repeat. So it is not like every single kill would keep lowering the drop rate until you are guaranteed to get it; it could still be down to RNG, just with better odds. If it only kicks in once you are 2x the rate, then most players wouldn't go that dry anyway, but if you did go 2x the rate, there would be some encouragement to keep going knowing that the odds have improved instead of still being exactly where you were at kill 1.
But it doesn't mean you can't go do other bosses; if you're drop rate is down to 1/333, it will stay 1/333 until you get the drop regardless of what you kill. Like it won't "cost" you anything. It would work same as it is now, just the boss you are over 2x dry at would have lower rates. And it probably wouldn't even apply to every boss and every drop either...
Yeah this is purely an ironman problem. On a non-restricted account if you're grinding for a tradeable item for 30 hours and still don't have it you'll probably have enough gp from the grind to buy it. Now if we're talking about untradable items such as pets I don't see a problem with bad luck mitigation.
There are probably a few exceptions of items that are not reasonably affordable and equally not reasonably obtainable but yes it works for 'low' value items in the sub 20m bracket probably. edit: the nightmare staffs come to mind, absurd grind/price for an item that has relatively few uses.
Not if you lose money every kill you don't get a unique.
Also, it doesn't matter what type of account you have, grinding 100s of hours without a drop or going dry anywhere is not fun at all regardless.
No one gets excited about the non-unique drops.
Your argument holds no water.
What content are you losing gp on without willingly doing so(ie using scythe to pet farm low bosses) lmao.
Even somewhere like Phosani Nightmare where the drops are ass unless you roll uniques, you're basically breaking even every hour, if not losing 100-300k tops. And I don't think anyone who's farming Nightmare is complaining about -300k/hr lmao.
DT2 bosses do not lose money even if you only ever roll commons unless you're not getting perfect kills or are planking a lot.
Phosani Nightmare is -300k/hr in the worst case scenario with 0 uniques and bad common rolls every hour. At which case, it's purely an IM problem where gp/hr doesn't matter as any main farming Nightmare is doing it for fun, log, or pet.
Phosani has 8 uniques. Yes you’ll lose money if go dry on all 8, but that’s like a 1/3k chance. Realistically you’ll still make money even if you don’t get the 1 or 2 specific uniques.
1/3k is just the chance to go dry on 8/8 drops. Roughly 0.37^8.
You might lose money on your first few hundred kc, but if your kc is approaching the drop rates for Inq armor or orbs, you'll have made money even if the specific orb/armor piece you're hoping for doesn't drop by rate.
If you're worried about people burning out when they're half the drop rate for 4 of the 8 of the uniques and 1/6 the drop rate for 3 of them, bad luck mitigation isn't going to change that.
Does it still stand? They have added collection log so mains are affected as well. Can’t buy your log.
You are trying really hard to justify a problem because it doesn’t affect you though lol.
This community…ever other game breaking change was fine and this is where you draw the line?
The GE, shift drop, runelite, make X/all…all of these completely changed the game…more than bad luck mitigation…but you are against it because what? A fuck you got mine? A “I don’t do the content so w/e.”
It isn’t necessary to max, but I bet you use all of the above to make your exp rate higher.
The problem with reasonable drops though is that people will complain that all the new uniques are gonna be worthless in a few months since they're so coming. Look at fang, for example.
People hating on dry mitigation are just like the NIMBYs of osrs. "Oh yea, I think that no one should go 14k kills dry for a mid level upgrade. But if you devaule my bank by a single GP, I will boycott this game!"
It’s the latest topic that the subreddit decided it will be fucking annoying about for a week. Every time I open the app I feel like I see another post about it lol
This. Just soap box preaching for easy karma and to beat this horse dead until people get sick of the topic.
Most of them are complaining for the giga dry peeps which even they are split on it.
Just like any annoying ass protestors except these dont get any sun.
> Just soap box preaching for easy karm
One of the things I hate the most about the karma system being tracked is takes like this. It’s just a thing a lot of people want to talk about man, controversial topics do that. It’s not always karma farming.
You see the game was originally designed in a way that you don't need to get the exact drop you want.
Do 1000 bandos and get no tasset?
No problem! Surely you got enough loot to buy it from other players.
That’s what I’m saying. I’m an iron player and they shouldn’t change drop mechanics around irons. The game is mostly balanced around being able to buy from the GE and it should stay that way imo
I'm so dry on my GIM rn, and I think this is the worst thing they could do for the game.
Just make a new IM mode with dryness protection and give them a pink helmet or something
L take, jagex creates a game mode and is now making balance adjustments whether the player base likes them or not.
Just cause you're salty doesn't mean it's wrong
Because not getting drops is shit gameplay?
Why defend phn drop rates?
Especially when you actively lose money farming the boss whenever you don't get a drop.
This is such an overall shitty argument.
Boss that isn't just an ATM like Zulrah/Vorkath is exactly what we asked for when we got Nightmare. That is what pvm should be. You use supplies hoping for rare loot. Thats fun.
The fact that they fucked the balance everywhere else so bosses not dropping their exact average loot every single kill are bad *by comparison* does not mean we should change the well designed bosses.
GWD is still the gold standard of loot balance in osrs for a reason.
Drops aren't gameplay. The mechanics of the fight are gameplay.
Some places need drop rate adjustments probably. Universal dryness protection is just dumb.
>Some places need drop rate adjustments probably. Universal dryness protection is just dumb.
Nah. 4-8x drop rate on something that already takes dozens of hours to get is just dumb. There is no good argument for it.
Yes there is: that's the way it has always worked. If you're going to change it there has to be a good argument as to why, all of the reasons thus far are "i want the drop"
>Yes there is: that's the way it has always worked
That isn't an argument. That's a statement.
And we have changed thousands of things in this game, games must evolve or die. Why draw the line in the sand here?
>all of the reasons thus far are "i want the drop"
The argument is that players time should be respected. There is nothing redeeming about going 8x dry on a unique, and you still haven't provided any argument why that should be possible.
You are correct. I was making a statement not an argument. I'm saying the onus for coming up with a good argument is the person proposing a change. Change can be good and there are a lot of changes that have happened recently I was in support of.
Player time, for the most part, is being respected, in my opinion. The game is balanced around gp/hr for mains. With a few exceptions of outliers (recently thinking of how dumb the 1/20k blip block scroll) that could be addressed differently than bad luck mitigation, that balance is pretty good. You're always making progress towards your next upgrade.
The only people affected by going 8x dry on an item are Irons and Cloggers, the achievement of cloggers is minimized if everyone gets anti-dry mechanics. The Clog was not made with the intention that everyone could make significant progress in it. Iron men need to accept the limitations of their accounts that they could go significantly dry for an item and need to adapt. They aren't meant to have every best in slot like mains are with comparable hours played. The only Irons I know with near max gear have been playing since the game mode came out like it is their job (and for some it is).
I don't think that the argument that a new update or change devaluing an existing players grind is ever satisfactory enough to make a change to the game. Especially if that change is better for the rest of the playerbase.
The way I see it, first item (clog) dry protection that starts scaling after going 2x as people have simulated here, doesn't add up to any more than about 0.5% increased unqiues added to the game.. so what downside is there?
The upside is that if you are deciding to grind for items, because you're a clogger, an Ironman, or just want to get drops in general, then this benefits you.. it only protects you from a grind that would waste your time to the point where it either makes you quit, or gatekeeps you from completing other content as an iron.. so dry protection has only an upside.
> I don't think that the argument that a new update or change devaluing an existing players grind is ever satisfactory enough to make a change to the game. Especially if that change is better for the rest of the playerbase.
I never said this. Again, you're arguing against strawmen from the opposing view when the burden of making a good argument lies on the one advocating for changing the status quo.
> The way I see it, first item (clog) dry protection that starts scaling after going 2x as people have simulated here, doesn't add up to any more than about 0.5% increased unqiues added to the game.. so what downside is there?
It's 5%. The downside is that it goes against the spirit of the game in most everyone I interact with in the games' opinion.
> The upside is that if you are deciding to grind for items, because you're a clogger, an Ironman, or just want to get drops in general, then this benefits you..
Does it though? If the only benefit you care about is getting every drop in the game faster, then maybe.
> it only protects you from a grind that would waste your time to the point where it either makes you quit, or gatekeeps you from completing other content as an iron
If you feel this way don't make an iron. If you'd quit cause you went dry somewhere, or feel locked out because of a single item, playing irons isn't for you.
Which is fine. I like my main too.
I don't think your points are convincing enough to change the entirety of the game.
>> I don't think that the argument that a new update or change devaluing an existing players grind is ever satisfactory enough to make a change to the game. Especially if that change is better for the rest of the playerbase.
>I never said this. Again, you're arguing against strawmen from the opposing view when the burden of making a good argument lies on the one advocating for changing the status quo.
Yeah you did:
"The only people affected by going 8x dry on an item are Irons and Cloggers, the achievement of cloggers is minimized if everyone gets anti-dry mechanics."
>It's 5%. The downside is that it goes against the spirit of the game in most everyone I interact with in the games' opinion.
It's not 5%. That was calculated based on a flat dry protection, not just for the first drop. It also didn't take into account the rate of people that never even reach the drop rate. An accurate prediction is around 0.5% increase.
>Does it though? If the only benefit you care about is getting every drop in the game faster, then maybe
No. Not faster, you still have to go more than double the rate.
In reality, this is the difference between not getting the drop at all, and getting it at least once.
This is the difference between never bothering with content like phosanis, and going for it because at least even with egregious drop rates you know that *eventually* you will get it.
Going 8x dry on a 400hr grind doesn't mean that eventually you get that drop, it means that you never get that drop.
>If you feel this way don't make an iron. If you'd quit cause you went dry somewhere, or feel locked out because of a single item, playing irons isn't for you.
I'm arguing that this benefits anyone who wants to see unique drops.
Mainscape isn't only about gp/hr, the game is more enjoyable when you see unique drops and have a reason to grind for drops on other bosses.
Mains don't grind phosanis because they see people who go dry spend half a year at the place, that isn't fun, and gaming isn't a job.
I think the rate should help reflect how long the boss takes to do. For example it takes 10 mins average to do a CG kill and the rate is 1/400 meanwhile you can kill Zulrah in like less than a minute for a 1/512. Obviously the Bowfa outclassed the blow pipe but is it fair for how long it takes to do gauntlet for a chance like that? This is me asking what other people actually think and not saying one is fair over the other. Personally I think it's cruel that youngleff is the same rate as Bowfa. The only reason I can think why rates are so high is because it's an anti bot measure. I think maybe some dry protection could be nice if it's maybe not collection logged and you're double rate your chances could be improved. Pets though should not get dry protection.
There was a time when rare drops in MMOs were special and nobody expected to get them, so they were a genuine surprise when you got them and a sight to behold for everyone who saw you with them.
Now some people view them as just a given item on a checklist, and the human brain does *not* like leaving things unfinished.
The games never had so much of the later content designed around having access to those items being a base assumption. Is there anything special about them when they're part of every cookie cutter setup?
I'm sorry, could you elaborate on what content there is in this game that necessitates such items? Because last I checked most endgame content is accessible with even just Barrows equipment (which came out in 2006, I should add).
I refuse to touch the Inferno, expert ToA, and now the Colosseum without endgame gear, or 1b+. It's not a necessity, but I'm not investing the money and time involved unless I have a decent chance at actually learning and progressing. Doing it in mid game gear is soul crushing.
You should give it a try if you’re interested in the content. Whether you’re in max gear or rags, you’ll still have to learn the same mechanics. Max gear is obviously more forgiving of mistakes and speeds up kills, but it doesn’t really make you learn mechanics any faster. The difference is really just with lower level gear you’ll need to get to like 70% mastery to get a completion, but with max gear you’ll just need 60%.
I’m not saying to go do inferno with an rcb for your first try, but it’s really not that much harder to do it with bowfa than with tbow.
What do you mean you need 1b+ for any of that content?
Inferno requires a bowfa, a reasonable setup starts at about 200m. Expert toa doesn’t even need a bowfa, Its reasonable to clear 300-350 solo with less than 100m worth of gear. Colosseum,a reasonable setup is less than 100m, 50m would even be more then enough. ToB is another sub 100m setup to get into, and on top of that, that sub 100m setup is what’s required when learning in some discords.
I feel the drop rates are mostly balanced around these streamers people that play for like 10-18h per day instead of the average player.
If they can afford to do that, big kudos to them, but the average player that can't afford to play for that long shouldn't suffer or stand these absurd drop rates because of them.
OSRS is straight up disrespecting the average player's time with these drop rates, I mean, they always did disrespect but now I feel we're being thrown shit at our face kind of disrespect.
Lol
I have no balls in this game brother, I just laugh at shitty arguments and shitty math. I’m done grinding for items, and I have nothing to prove to you.
On one hand I agree some of the grinds in this game are absolutely miserable and have are plain unattainable for the majority of players that actually have jobs and responsibilities, but on the other hand, I've played Leagues and achieved basically everything possible within 6 weeks and the game gets really depressing when you have no other remaining grinds or goals to go for.
I want drop rates to be reasonable and attainable for everyone, but at the same time it would be a real shame if so many players got to the point where there's nothing left to go for. Personally I'd rather a Tbow be a 500 hour grind and more or less accept the fact I'll never get one rather than it be a 50 hour grind and have it be over with in a couple months.
Even with 3x drop rates most maxed players would not be able to complete logs. With the amount of content nowadays there's still plenty. Corp could easily be a 1,000 hour grind. I believe only 1 or two players have everything logged as of now, the person that logged everything last year hasn't finished as of now since DT2 and colosseum was released.
That person last year clocked at 22k hours of pure bossing... That's 3 years of playing if they played 24 hours a day... or 9 years if they played 8 hours everyday... Even playing osrs 40 hours a week it would take 10+ years, but there will be a lot more new content as there will be a few bosses/demi bosses added this year, so in reality at the rate we are going it's going to be impossible for anybody to finish the boss logs if they started this year, as new content brings rarer items and pets.
They also undervalued because bots bring into the game many of the items that mains buy off the GE.
Without them, again the prices would be higher, same demand and less supply.
I hold that the game already *has* bad luck mitigation- it's the gold you get from running bosses and selling other drops.
The issue is players playing *without* bad luck mitigation and then complaining that there's no bad luck mitigation.
People play a game mode that is more entertaining (to them) 99% of the time and ask for the last 1% that isn’t entertaining to be made entertaining. That’s not hypocrisy
L take
Even if a drop rate is "reasonable", let's say 1/100, you can still go dry and have to kill 500 which would still be annoying to players and cause complaining. It's all about expectation, if you expect to kill 100 and then end up having to kill 500 it will still suck.
Ok but you dont need inquisitor, a vestige or whatever to play the game. The rings are barely bis, lightbarer beats them in most places. Inquisitor is nice as fuck. You could argue DWH is 1/5k but its from a normal mob and back in the day visage was also 1/5k or 1/10k even so. Everything else (except megarares) is reasonable. And mega rares should be rare
Actually crazy mfers talk about the spirit of OSRS but conveniently forget that no boss drops even reached 1/1000 back then. lol
Yea drops back when we're mostly 1/128s. Just look at the daganoth kings and kalphite queen.
KQ was absolutely shit to do with the equipment available at the time to be fair
KQ is still shit now lmao
It wasn't when d chain was literally the best in slot.
It was still a shit boss, there was just more of a reason to do it. I just did KQ with the home tele method and I’m so happy I got spooned the head because that boss is trash.
It was shit, people just did it in teams so you wouldn't take as much damage. These days most solo it so you just get wrecked.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the mechanics weren't bad. I just meant there was a lot more reason to do it when it dropped something meaningful. I remember going in massive groups all wearing full Verac's. Every so often, somebody would just die because they got focused for too long lol.
Still kinda sucks tbh
No doubt, but my excessive cursing still makes me appreciate the equipment I have now over the options available at the time.
Yeah but 1kc/trip at 128 ain't that bad lol
You have to remember that you were at the very least duoing her too so all drops were split. You were also eating like 25 sharks a kill or trip which was a lot back then.
In 2004 gear, chugging sharks, duo/trio, no shortcut to bypass the run to her lair. Sounds much worse.
No house for full heal/poison cure. No fairy ring so you had to run from shanty. No diaries so you had to bring ropes. No stams so you had to walk part of the cave. No piety. etc etc. People go "it was only 1/128 that's easy" and then realize 1/128 was insane back then with how shit we were at the game, how low KPH things were in comparison, etc.
Kills taking 10 minutes each kill and having to bank after 1 kill. Yeah ain't no way somebody is gonna do that these days
Yeah, nobody would do this nowadays, there are no 10 minute bosses in osrs that you have to bank between each kill and the drop rates are 1/1000 /s
Corp is the only one that comes to mind. Been in the game since 2008.
Nah it wasn't that bad. Granted a lot of people did suck but there were still small teams that actually played the game relatively correctly. A lot of people have this view because they were dumb kids with super mediocre combat stats and terrible gear because they were afraid to die that were just ass at the game but that didn't actually apply to everyone in the context of being able to get a group together to consistently kill kq It was super worth it. You think people weren't down to go grab a d chain and split it for 30m+ depending on exactly when you were doing this? At that point in time that was basically getting a tbow is now value wise. The funny thing is even if your group was legit bad and it was over 10 mins/kill that's still way easier and faster than the things we do today. CG is like ~7-8 mins for most people and its a 1 in 400 lmao
I mean it was only "worth it" in the sense that it was good for 8 months. Then we got barrows which shit on it not only by tanking the value of D chain, but by giving you way better sets, with lower requirements to kill and better gp/hr, even if you got the same "10 mins per kill as KQ" because people were banking via ecto. And then 5 months after barrows, we got DKs which was the best money maker pvm wise until GWD and the same groups that could do KQ efficiently just did DKs instead. At which point, even with 15m~ D chains, no one really bothered with the boss besides people who just wanted to get the drop to see it, the very same people who would be farming KQ nowadays to green log it regardless of how long it takes.
d chain was over 20m until gwd released almost and over 30 while barrows was out for like a year. People didn't stop buying them until the bcp replaced it. There was a brief panic for a short time before they made barrows degrade. You're forgetting most of 05 06 and like half of 07 in the timeline of the price here lol Actually having just reread all of this I'm not even sure why you're talking to me about the gp/hr of kq vs barrows vs dks to begin with. I'm just making the point that grinds then vs now were much shorter and easy in comparison. I don't really care about perfectly defining during which years/months doing kq between 04 and 07 was the best gp/hr compared to alternatives when in my example I was talking about the d chain when it was actually worth gp anyways and saying that it wasn't that hard to get one
It was also worth it back then. People wouldn't do that now, because KQ gives nothing. People would do it if it was a competitive moneymaker or source of a BIS, like it was back then.
It wasn't that bad, especially when Verac's released a few months later. But back then you actually had more players wanting to do bosses together. Like there weren't any "go solo this boss in an instance to print millions per hour", so finding some friends to go kill KBD or KQ for those drops worth millions was pretty fun. And even with nooby stats, the bosses really weren't that terrible in a team. They only suck soo much these days because no one wants to kill them so we're stuck soloing bosses intended to be killed by groups...
They were intended to be killed in groups, but they no longer are. Ironmen for example have to solo the bosses as players tagging will result in no loot, it's the same with GWD outside of nex.
Yah, I understand why but it is still kinda sad to see. Like I miss seeing stuff like 5 noobs in rune with dragon weapons killing KBD; these days if they tried, they'd probably get crashed by a maxed main hunting for the pet or such...
Because "bossing" was not a term back then. KQ was actually a true adventure against unfair boss. Long walk with your friends through the kalphite lair, then getting smacked with unavoidable damage. Me and my friends were doing TRIPS to kill a single KQ because she was so strong. Rune plate, legs, d long + granite shield, pots + food. Nothing more, because if you die, you will not be able to get back for your items in time. Brutal, but amazing times.
Not to mention Barrows. It is still kinda wild that they added such a massive upgrade to Dragon gear, which keep in mind only consisted of Med Helm, Chainbody, and Sq Shield at the time, at such a common rate from such an easy boss. When players did raise concern about it devaluing the much rarer dragon items, their solution wasn't to make the drops way rarer, but to make the armor degrade so Dragon still held a niche. Doubt OSRS players would ever be happy with that sort of thing these days...
Pure unadulterated facts.
We weren’t also able to solo 60 kills in a trip.
In a way, increasing the drop rate makes sense as dps increases but doesn’t change the fact that it’s way too high.
Funny you don’t mention the GE, like 7x DPS compared to back in the day, the ability to stay in the same place for a much longer time due to near infinite healing, and the community just getting better at the game. Back then you’d two inventory 1 KQ kill in like 15 minutes. Now you can get a solo kill in under a minute without using food.
Yeah, but the content that's 1/1000+ are the modern ones that have been keeping up with the player power creep
The biggest modern offenders of this are cg and virtus robes. Everything else with drop rates that high are either fast/easy kills or raids, which should be rare drops.
Nightmare even if the 3x changes go through is still awful
1/400 isn’t a bad drop rate at all for a weapon like bowfa lol Edit: a lot of you should just play mains lol
Agreed but cg is a little different since kills are longer with prep
50-60ish hrs for one of the most versatile weapons in the game only second in it’s combat style to arguably the best weapon in the game and not by a THAT of a huge difference, doesn’t sound that bad tbh
It's what, 3-5 kills per hour? That's rough if you go 3x+ dry on it
With good stats and t1 prep its closer to 8-9kph I agree that enhanced drop rate is quite high but cg is high enough gph that you can afford an enhanced way before you go that dry.
1/400 isn’t high at all tbh, this subs just really showing it’s colours. 1/400 is a fantastic deal for bowfa. Total levels and boss logs should reaaally be on display to comment on some posts
That's the whole point, isn't it? An iron looking to get bowfa with no rigour to start doing some endgame bossing will realistically get ~5kph (with a minute or two of downtime), so a bowfa is expected at around 80 hours. That's reasonable for a strong weapon. Outliers won't get it until 4x, 5x, 6x the drop rate though. Suddenly, you're not there for like a month grinding it out, but more like 6 months. It's a burnout moment. The entire proposal is to increase the drop rate slightly for those rare cases, so the average drop rate is barely affected, while those people don't have to wait until 3k kc to get their bowfa Maxed main, 2100+ uim, 372 cg kc at the UIM for bowfa
Stick to ur main
Yeah and the drop rates would still be a 1/500 if whip was BIS. Turns out you have to increase drop rates to match new BIS or the game would just be RS3
I think there’s *some* wiggle room between the 1/512 for a Whip, and the 1/1000 from a RAID Tbow.
1/512 for whip on an enemy that you can kill in 3 hits, or afk for hours in sub optimal gear. 1/1000 from a multi boss encounter that takes a minimum 20-minute average from fully geared and max effort individuals.
Why do you "have" to do that? Newer bosses are longer and have significantly worse rates. Why? It's not to avoid being rs3. it's because nothing would have value with the number of bots that fund the GE for all the mains. More bots have green logged revs than real players at this point, it's tragic. And whip is a terrible example because it was never from a boss in the first place, so the time to farm it is significantly reduced. If it was only from a boss, like for example the zaryte crossbow which is 2 different boss grinds, then it would have taken a long time at 1 in 500.
You didn’t read my comment correctly. I said bosses back in the day had better drop rates because the current BIS was a whip. The old bosses are faster to kill today because of the changes in BIS which explains why drop rates are worse.
Always with the RS3 with you dudes..how does that even make sense? Most of the drop rates are honestly reasonable at around 1/500 or so, there's just some outliers that are a bit ass, like corp (who shouldn't even be in OSRS) or Nightmare, with some arguable ones like virtus. Time for completion on raid logs is a bit whack too but honestly reasonable considering it's not designed with ironmen/cloggers in mind and provides the best in slot for like the next 5 or so years (I would imagine). Still, it wouldn't hurt to have some of the 1/1000+ drop rates tweaked a little (yes I know DWH and nightmare is being tweaked slightly). I mean it's whatever in the grand scheme of things but, 1/1000+ drop rates ain't 07RS.
There's a large difference between 1/500 on a monster that takes < 1 minute to kill and 1/500 on a raid that takes 20-40 minutes to complete depending on the one you are referring to.
Seeing as he said “boss” drop not “raid drop” and seeing as Raids are a new concept in general so there is no comparable raid from back in the day, I don’t see what point you are making.
Well, since you are talking semantics, your comment specifically referred to weapons that are BIS. The only real-life example we have of this is from raids. We can see what the drop rate difference for an original BIS weapon from 07 is vs. what the current BIS weapon and compare them in reality. Technically, the time sink for a BIS weapon in old school is significantly higher than the time sink to obtain the BIS weapon in 07. Also, technically, you mentioned the whip, which is not a boss drop. It is obtained from a normal mob, so if you want semantics, then your original comment is just as nonsensical of a reply to the original comment as my reply is to yours, semantically speaking.
You must be ignoring the fact that the dragon square shield in Classic was at best, a 1/5671 drop from KBD, the strongest boss in the game.
People complain about 300 hours on agility but defend the concept someone going 600 hours dry
Ha! I complain on both.
Facts
Because 600 hours of bossing is fun but 20 seconds of agility is pain
I'm like 1400 kc on Goraks in the gorak plane trying to get shield half for my iron. Got like 6 d spears. Things 1/200. 1/200 isnt a crazy droprate, you can always get super unlucky. I've also been insanely lucky with super spoon for enhanced crystal wep seed, so it goes both ways. but like if I went this dry on a boss I'd have stopped farming it a long time ago.
I couldn't imagine actually doing goraks for shield left half outside of leagues, how do you not have one from slayer? I'm not even that high and I have several. I got 2 in one task once.
God bless modern bosses having tick reaction mechanics while also being long ass fights and mutagen drop rates for their noncosmetic uniques. We truly live in the golden era.
Hoho, seeds AND diamonds for my 40 minute toa raiding effort? Jagex, you spoil me so. That 70k is going straight to the mortgage fund
Toa is a fucked up scenario because at the same time purples are very rare and too common.
Most drops are reasonable if you go on rate, but not really if you go 5 times rate, which there will always be someone that does.
Most drops are reasonable, but not all. Folks aren't asking for dry protection because of Abyssal Whip, they are asking because of things like Enhance Seed and Virtus.
Also, I don't think anyone is really complaining about it for stuff like DFH or Eternal Glory either. Like if we did add some type of bad luck mitigation, I think most players would be fine with leaving those minor/cosmetic sort of items out of it.
Right? Fucking imagine doing 2000 corrupted gauntlets for a bowfa because Ironman sounded dope when getting a BGS was endgame. That's 20000 minutes assuming you never die once. That's 330 hours of your life spent to get a weapon that you need to properly do so much content
A lot of drops are reasonable but a lot aren’t, even on drop rate. Especially if it’s a boss that takes 5 minutes to kill and re-gear for an average player. This game said “yeah this one single item here, that isn’t even BIS but it’s still important in your journey? Fuck it, spend weeks on just this one item”. Unless you’re a content creator who gets paid to play the game all day, you just can’t make meaningful progress.
The drop rates and time needed to do most shit in Osrs is actually straight up disrespectful of our time, just because some code has an insane number on it. Glad this is starting to come up in more convos because the game itself is incredible apart from this. I’d play and pay for 3-4 accounts if I didn’t have to spend literal weeks on one single item or late game upgrades. Insane.
Likewise I love the concept of ironman but I don’t like the sheer amount of time required to accomplish practically anything. Cutting that time sink down means I’d be playing an ironman. Of course, that’s part of why I love leagues, so I just play the shit out of those.
100%, right there with you with a uim. It’s just too insane unless you got 8 hours a day to play.
Drops should be like demonic gorillas. The unique is rare enough to be a good drop, but not common enough that every kill is like a Vorkath kill.
We all suffer because of people who play an unhealthy amount, when a new content is released they will have all rares logged with pets 2-3 weeks later.. The thing is they need to please the max accs that play 40+ hours a week as well. I think they should make rare cosmetics or pet transmogs, like a 1/10,000 golden vorkath or it's guaranteed at 10k kills.. Also players complain if drops are any easier because the new t85 wep should be much more rarer than a wep that could take 400 hours to obtain, so that effect snowballs... Players will complain their t bow is devalued because the new bow takes 100 hours and it should take minimum 500 since t bow is averaging around 300-550 hours. So the new wep is now 550-1000 hour grind. Looks at soul reaper axe, you need to kill 4 difficult bosses at 1/800 - 1/1k for each piece. From now on it gets worse and worse.
This is the correct solution. Stuff like DWH and Imbued heart are excessively powerful, have almost no requirements, and are locked behind getting lucky when grinding trash mobs. Fix that design issue at the source, and there is no need for a wonky bandaid and feels-bad solution like bad luck mitigation.
We have bad luck mitigation in-game already. It's called the GE. Money is progress towards gear related goals if trading is enabled.
If the content is so shit that no one wants to do it if they don't get spooned, then the content is shit and should be adjusted. If even ironmen don't want to interact with a certain piece of content then you know it's giga shit. By buying items and skipping the content all you're doing is leaning on bots to farm shit content for you, indirectly supporting bot farms.
Oh right. Forgot that an ironman can just go buy shit from GE. Thanks! q:D
The amount of wonky bad luck mitigation mental gymnastics needed vs. right-click "trade" that has existed since day 1 of rs classic Sure man. You're obviously the clever guy here.
They want to pad out content but it’s a double edged sword because people will get burnt and quit either way
Honestly. Think of the amount of time something as simple as a 1/1000 drop rate demands of you. We are being taken for fools.
Having not played osrs for over a year now (and not planning to come back til sailing is out), I honesty don’t miss the drop rates. It’s actually INSANE the amount of time some people have spent trying to get a dwh on an iron for example. Literal HUNDREDS of hours. Like ?????? Doing one thing, over, and over, and over, and over… You know what else you can do in 100+ hours of not killing shamans? Play all of BG3 or another large game like Elden Ring to completion. Yet on osrs it’s perfectly normal to play for sooooo many hours of your life doing just 1 tiny piece of content (“tiny” as dwh is a substantial upgrade). It’s honestly ridiculous and I really think OSRS players need to sit down and actually think about the amount of time it takes. Cause reading 200 hours on a screen doesn’t do it justice to just how much time that is.
Yeah it's the main thing that's made me hit a brick wall of enjoyment on my Ironman. Once you kill thousands of shamans and could potentially need to kill ten thousand more it's like bleh.. Plus thanks to jumps and spawns you have to pay attention Took me 12363 pickpockets for my first blood shards. Was literally like a week straight of pickpocketing
I went 2400 kills for a 1/800 zombie axe. That's a really dry log. People have gone triple dry on lots worse logs too, like Lizardmen Shamans, Barrows looking for a specific class of item, basically any item worth collecting. Hundreds of hours have been wasted on a random number generator that decides it's taking the piss and not gonna generate the right number for the item even after thousands of kills over rate. There are very few games that disrespect player's time like this game does.
Had a friend who went 12k+ KC on Lizardman Shamans for DWH. He was on a main and was driven purely out of spite. And if it wasn’t for the fact that he has a work from home job that lets him play damn near all day, then he’d probably still be on that grind even though that was several months ago.
Every time I hear about a high KC DWH I like to remember I got mine from my first kill for the diary entry, but I was a main so I already had one.
The game is crazy when I hear 3 times dry and think "oh that sounds pretty good:
For ironman players, yes. For normal accounts tho? doesn't matter if you go dry, money is your badluck protection.
except for bosses where the unique drop is the money like gwd or nightmare or chambers or
Yeah but on a normie account it's fine if you get two Bandos Chestplates, you can sell one and buy your tassets. On an ironman, the second chestplate is useless (not really but you get the point)
The beauty of a main is content hopping If you’re dry enough that you’re bored, you just leave. Dryness protection has nothing to do with mains at all
dry protection by design must add spoon protection, there is no way around it. The median drop rate must increase. On top of that, your chance of a drop now improves with kc. This turns the main grind from grind whatever you want, change boss whenever, to match that of an iornman, grind until you receive a drop or lose out on that built up drop chance because every kill would actually get you closer to a drop. The DT vestige drops are an example of a dry protection system (a pretty bad one). A lot less people will go 2 or even 3 times dry, but there is a huge reduction in people getting early drops.
> dry protection by design must add spoon protection, there is no way around it. The median drop rate must increase Not necessarily If you address the tailend of the bell curve, the 2-3x+ rate, you can leave the spoons completely the same and only change the average drop rate by ~5% Vestige system was bad. But I think a combination is viable. I’ve said for a bit that if you roll drops normally and as a vestige system simultaneously and if you roll the regular drop normally, your vestige progress resets, you would only really affect those with doomed dry streaks I think there is problems with dryness protection. Primarily how it works with teams and being incentivized to not raid with people who got a drop recently. But even that just means people who are dry get more teammates and that’s fine. It’s not as clean as a bunch of the Reddit noobs think but there’s a way to navigate this I do think
Dry protection must have some level of spoon protection. There is no way around it. You can’t hide that behind lower drop rates, to move the tail end of the distribution in you must also move other parts out to maintain the drop rate.
You haven’t really explained why If you’re arguing that dryness protection would mean Jagex would want to nerf drop rates ~5% in general I *could* see that. I don’t necessarily see that as spoon protection however. Spoon protection is actively preventing spooning like the vestige mechanic. Worse drop rates isn’t really that. People will still spoon. Basically no one really spoons DT2 rings. I would argue however that you don’t *need* to nerf drop rates. The average drop rate would theoretically be 5% lower or so. However, this assumes every person does the boss long enough to realize the dryness protections. I’d argue the vast majority of people will not. Going 3x rate is rare not just because it’s only a 5% chance or whatever. But also because many people don’t bother and tap out before that. Not every person who would go 3x rate will get there. And every one who doesn’t will not increase the average drop rate across the game. Theoretically it would. But in practice, it won’t.
If you can't handle bad luck streaks then farm something that's reliable. As a normie it's your choice.
So instead of doing something fun like GWD you're saying I should just be killing green dragons for noted bones in the wilderness for hundreds of hours instead? In that case, goodbye OSRS I'll go play something else.
Go dry at NM, get spooned elsewhere, it all evens out. You don't need Inq or any of the nightmare staves
In which you wouldn't be doing if you cared about gp/hr. You just chalk up the dry hours as failed rolls for pet and go again on mainscape.
I mean, if you're not making money because you have bad luck, that doesn't quite work. Mains don't do bosses to get the unique to use; they do bosses to get the uniques to sell... So if you don't get the uniques, you're not making money (at least not as much). In some places, you'll even go negative if you don't see drops. And sure, you can "just go do something else", but do we really want to be encouraging players to just grind moneyprinters like Vorkath or such instead of doing bosses with RNG? Like if we want there to be a good variety of bosses to farm, the ones with their profit coming from rare drops need to feel worth it compared to the ones with consistent profit and if the drops skew too rare, then that won't be the case. (Something something Nightmare...)
While you're right there a few of those bosses where you go either +-0 or straight negative, nightmare I think might be the worst offender. But that sounds like a nightmare specific problem and not a rework all boss loot in the game problem. Point remains though you have options as a main account. You can do the grind if you really want to, or you can do an intense pvm method or a chill but slower one, or even skilling in some cases etc.. ironmen don't have these options, yes that's part of the gamemode but maybe something could be done so you don't have to go like 8x dry for the absolute worst offenders.
> I mean, if you're not making money because you have bad luck, that doesn't quite work. Mains don't do bosses to get the unique to use; they do bosses to get the uniques to sell... So if you don't get the uniques, you're not making money (at least not as much). In some places, you'll even go negative if you don't see drops. The problem is you are building drop potential with dry protection. Currently it doesn’t matter how many kill you have, every kill has the same chance of receiving a drop, there is no cost to switching bosses, with dry protection there is, it doesn’t matter what system is used, every kill gets you closer to the drop. So now as a main you have to farm to a boss till you get a drop.
> So now as a main you have to farm to a boss till you get a drop. No, this is because the propsed system only kicks in at 3x drop rate, so this isn't actually true, and then its still random, it's not a predetermined kill count.
> with dry protection there is, it doesn’t matter what system is used, every kill gets you closer to the drop That is not how it has to work at all... Dry protection wouldn't guarantee a drop; it would just make the rate more common the more dry you go. For example, say you got a 1/1K drop. If you don't have it by 1K KC, the drop rate is still 1/1K. If you don't have it by 1.5K KC, the drop rate is still 1/1K. If you get to 2K KC without the drop, double the rate, then the drop rate could get buffed by 50% to 1/666. It would stay 1/666 until 3K KC, triple the rate, where it would be increased by double or 100% to 1/500. Then it could stay 1/500 until 4K KC, 4x the rate, where it would go to 1/400. Still don't get one by 5K KC, five times the rate? Then it could go to 1/333 and maybe this would be as low as it goes. You could still do another 5K Kills and be at 10K KC without hitting that 1/333, but your odds are 3x better than when it was 1/1K. Once you get the drop, the rate would reset back to 1/1K, but if you went dry on it again, the same cycle could repeat. So it is not like every single kill would keep lowering the drop rate until you are guaranteed to get it; it could still be down to RNG, just with better odds. If it only kicks in once you are 2x the rate, then most players wouldn't go that dry anyway, but if you did go 2x the rate, there would be some encouragement to keep going knowing that the odds have improved instead of still being exactly where you were at kill 1. But it doesn't mean you can't go do other bosses; if you're drop rate is down to 1/333, it will stay 1/333 until you get the drop regardless of what you kill. Like it won't "cost" you anything. It would work same as it is now, just the boss you are over 2x dry at would have lower rates. And it probably wouldn't even apply to every boss and every drop either...
Yeah this is purely an ironman problem. On a non-restricted account if you're grinding for a tradeable item for 30 hours and still don't have it you'll probably have enough gp from the grind to buy it. Now if we're talking about untradable items such as pets I don't see a problem with bad luck mitigation.
No reason to give pity pet drops as pets are 100% cosmetic and don't give you an advantage.
There are probably a few exceptions of items that are not reasonably affordable and equally not reasonably obtainable but yes it works for 'low' value items in the sub 20m bracket probably. edit: the nightmare staffs come to mind, absurd grind/price for an item that has relatively few uses.
Purely an Ironman problem…as you put all of your loot to sell it on the GE which barely passed a poll and wasn’t in the 2007 version of the game.
You are gonna pretend the old way of shouting into the void of auto typers and the plethora of other bs they came with it, is actually good?
No but people are here pretending that going 5x dry on items that take days worth of played time to get just going on rate is okay…
Even if there wasn't the ge my point still stands. You could still sell the loot and then buy the item you were going for.
Not if you lose money every kill you don't get a unique. Also, it doesn't matter what type of account you have, grinding 100s of hours without a drop or going dry anywhere is not fun at all regardless. No one gets excited about the non-unique drops. Your argument holds no water.
What content are you losing gp on without willingly doing so(ie using scythe to pet farm low bosses) lmao. Even somewhere like Phosani Nightmare where the drops are ass unless you roll uniques, you're basically breaking even every hour, if not losing 100-300k tops. And I don't think anyone who's farming Nightmare is complaining about -300k/hr lmao.
Nightmare. A lot of the dt2 bosses
DT2 bosses do not lose money even if you only ever roll commons unless you're not getting perfect kills or are planking a lot. Phosani Nightmare is -300k/hr in the worst case scenario with 0 uniques and bad common rolls every hour. At which case, it's purely an IM problem where gp/hr doesn't matter as any main farming Nightmare is doing it for fun, log, or pet.
Phosani has 8 uniques. Yes you’ll lose money if go dry on all 8, but that’s like a 1/3k chance. Realistically you’ll still make money even if you don’t get the 1 or 2 specific uniques.
Where do you get that figure? You can easily run 500 kc of Phosani's without a drop, and for most people that's enough to call it quits.
1/3k is just the chance to go dry on 8/8 drops. Roughly 0.37^8. You might lose money on your first few hundred kc, but if your kc is approaching the drop rates for Inq armor or orbs, you'll have made money even if the specific orb/armor piece you're hoping for doesn't drop by rate. If you're worried about people burning out when they're half the drop rate for 4 of the 8 of the uniques and 1/6 the drop rate for 3 of them, bad luck mitigation isn't going to change that.
Does it still stand? They have added collection log so mains are affected as well. Can’t buy your log. You are trying really hard to justify a problem because it doesn’t affect you though lol.
Coll log isn't necessary though. They shouldn't cater to a minority of people who want to green log every piece of content.
This community…ever other game breaking change was fine and this is where you draw the line? The GE, shift drop, runelite, make X/all…all of these completely changed the game…more than bad luck mitigation…but you are against it because what? A fuck you got mine? A “I don’t do the content so w/e.” It isn’t necessary to max, but I bet you use all of the above to make your exp rate higher.
Wasn't in the original back up from 2007, yes. GWD was not in original back up, both gwd and ge were released 2007 tho.
What about shift drop, make X/all, and runelite (basically reducing clicks all across the board)? You throw a fit against those?
And if they're a little short, just RWT with a bond. Buying gold was certainly aligned with Oldschool values.
I usually lurk but this take seems too good
Said like a person who can use GE for brews and restores
Sigh... This isn't a game anymore, for y'all it's become an obsession, this sub is so hard to be in
Always have been 🫠
The problem with reasonable drops though is that people will complain that all the new uniques are gonna be worthless in a few months since they're so coming. Look at fang, for example. People hating on dry mitigation are just like the NIMBYs of osrs. "Oh yea, I think that no one should go 14k kills dry for a mid level upgrade. But if you devaule my bank by a single GP, I will boycott this game!"
Its like people just want to play leagues over the current version of the game.
Are you guys still not done with this ?
It’s the latest topic that the subreddit decided it will be fucking annoying about for a week. Every time I open the app I feel like I see another post about it lol
This. Just soap box preaching for easy karma and to beat this horse dead until people get sick of the topic. Most of them are complaining for the giga dry peeps which even they are split on it. Just like any annoying ass protestors except these dont get any sun.
> Just soap box preaching for easy karm One of the things I hate the most about the karma system being tracked is takes like this. It’s just a thing a lot of people want to talk about man, controversial topics do that. It’s not always karma farming.
You see the game was originally designed in a way that you don't need to get the exact drop you want. Do 1000 bandos and get no tasset? No problem! Surely you got enough loot to buy it from other players.
Just buy the item if it doesn't drop.
That’s what I’m saying. I’m an iron player and they shouldn’t change drop mechanics around irons. The game is mostly balanced around being able to buy from the GE and it should stay that way imo
I'm so dry on my GIM rn, and I think this is the worst thing they could do for the game. Just make a new IM mode with dryness protection and give them a pink helmet or something
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Something something vocal minority
L take, jagex creates a game mode and is now making balance adjustments whether the player base likes them or not. Just cause you're salty doesn't mean it's wrong
Because not getting drops is shit gameplay? Why defend phn drop rates? Especially when you actively lose money farming the boss whenever you don't get a drop. This is such an overall shitty argument.
Boss that isn't just an ATM like Zulrah/Vorkath is exactly what we asked for when we got Nightmare. That is what pvm should be. You use supplies hoping for rare loot. Thats fun. The fact that they fucked the balance everywhere else so bosses not dropping their exact average loot every single kill are bad *by comparison* does not mean we should change the well designed bosses. GWD is still the gold standard of loot balance in osrs for a reason.
Nightmare is not like GWD. GWD pays for your supplies and has fairly consistent drops. Bandos is arguably better than inquisitor and far less rare.
Drops aren't gameplay. The mechanics of the fight are gameplay. Some places need drop rate adjustments probably. Universal dryness protection is just dumb.
>Some places need drop rate adjustments probably. Universal dryness protection is just dumb. Nah. 4-8x drop rate on something that already takes dozens of hours to get is just dumb. There is no good argument for it.
Yes there is: that's the way it has always worked. If you're going to change it there has to be a good argument as to why, all of the reasons thus far are "i want the drop"
>Yes there is: that's the way it has always worked That isn't an argument. That's a statement. And we have changed thousands of things in this game, games must evolve or die. Why draw the line in the sand here? >all of the reasons thus far are "i want the drop" The argument is that players time should be respected. There is nothing redeeming about going 8x dry on a unique, and you still haven't provided any argument why that should be possible.
You are correct. I was making a statement not an argument. I'm saying the onus for coming up with a good argument is the person proposing a change. Change can be good and there are a lot of changes that have happened recently I was in support of. Player time, for the most part, is being respected, in my opinion. The game is balanced around gp/hr for mains. With a few exceptions of outliers (recently thinking of how dumb the 1/20k blip block scroll) that could be addressed differently than bad luck mitigation, that balance is pretty good. You're always making progress towards your next upgrade. The only people affected by going 8x dry on an item are Irons and Cloggers, the achievement of cloggers is minimized if everyone gets anti-dry mechanics. The Clog was not made with the intention that everyone could make significant progress in it. Iron men need to accept the limitations of their accounts that they could go significantly dry for an item and need to adapt. They aren't meant to have every best in slot like mains are with comparable hours played. The only Irons I know with near max gear have been playing since the game mode came out like it is their job (and for some it is).
I don't think that the argument that a new update or change devaluing an existing players grind is ever satisfactory enough to make a change to the game. Especially if that change is better for the rest of the playerbase. The way I see it, first item (clog) dry protection that starts scaling after going 2x as people have simulated here, doesn't add up to any more than about 0.5% increased unqiues added to the game.. so what downside is there? The upside is that if you are deciding to grind for items, because you're a clogger, an Ironman, or just want to get drops in general, then this benefits you.. it only protects you from a grind that would waste your time to the point where it either makes you quit, or gatekeeps you from completing other content as an iron.. so dry protection has only an upside.
> I don't think that the argument that a new update or change devaluing an existing players grind is ever satisfactory enough to make a change to the game. Especially if that change is better for the rest of the playerbase. I never said this. Again, you're arguing against strawmen from the opposing view when the burden of making a good argument lies on the one advocating for changing the status quo. > The way I see it, first item (clog) dry protection that starts scaling after going 2x as people have simulated here, doesn't add up to any more than about 0.5% increased unqiues added to the game.. so what downside is there? It's 5%. The downside is that it goes against the spirit of the game in most everyone I interact with in the games' opinion. > The upside is that if you are deciding to grind for items, because you're a clogger, an Ironman, or just want to get drops in general, then this benefits you.. Does it though? If the only benefit you care about is getting every drop in the game faster, then maybe. > it only protects you from a grind that would waste your time to the point where it either makes you quit, or gatekeeps you from completing other content as an iron If you feel this way don't make an iron. If you'd quit cause you went dry somewhere, or feel locked out because of a single item, playing irons isn't for you. Which is fine. I like my main too. I don't think your points are convincing enough to change the entirety of the game.
>> I don't think that the argument that a new update or change devaluing an existing players grind is ever satisfactory enough to make a change to the game. Especially if that change is better for the rest of the playerbase. >I never said this. Again, you're arguing against strawmen from the opposing view when the burden of making a good argument lies on the one advocating for changing the status quo. Yeah you did: "The only people affected by going 8x dry on an item are Irons and Cloggers, the achievement of cloggers is minimized if everyone gets anti-dry mechanics." >It's 5%. The downside is that it goes against the spirit of the game in most everyone I interact with in the games' opinion. It's not 5%. That was calculated based on a flat dry protection, not just for the first drop. It also didn't take into account the rate of people that never even reach the drop rate. An accurate prediction is around 0.5% increase. >Does it though? If the only benefit you care about is getting every drop in the game faster, then maybe No. Not faster, you still have to go more than double the rate. In reality, this is the difference between not getting the drop at all, and getting it at least once. This is the difference between never bothering with content like phosanis, and going for it because at least even with egregious drop rates you know that *eventually* you will get it. Going 8x dry on a 400hr grind doesn't mean that eventually you get that drop, it means that you never get that drop. >If you feel this way don't make an iron. If you'd quit cause you went dry somewhere, or feel locked out because of a single item, playing irons isn't for you. I'm arguing that this benefits anyone who wants to see unique drops. Mainscape isn't only about gp/hr, the game is more enjoyable when you see unique drops and have a reason to grind for drops on other bosses. Mains don't grind phosanis because they see people who go dry spend half a year at the place, that isn't fun, and gaming isn't a job.
I think the rate should help reflect how long the boss takes to do. For example it takes 10 mins average to do a CG kill and the rate is 1/400 meanwhile you can kill Zulrah in like less than a minute for a 1/512. Obviously the Bowfa outclassed the blow pipe but is it fair for how long it takes to do gauntlet for a chance like that? This is me asking what other people actually think and not saying one is fair over the other. Personally I think it's cruel that youngleff is the same rate as Bowfa. The only reason I can think why rates are so high is because it's an anti bot measure. I think maybe some dry protection could be nice if it's maybe not collection logged and you're double rate your chances could be improved. Pets though should not get dry protection.
No we like pain around here, stop making sense
There was a time when rare drops in MMOs were special and nobody expected to get them, so they were a genuine surprise when you got them and a sight to behold for everyone who saw you with them. Now some people view them as just a given item on a checklist, and the human brain does *not* like leaving things unfinished.
The games never had so much of the later content designed around having access to those items being a base assumption. Is there anything special about them when they're part of every cookie cutter setup?
I'm sorry, could you elaborate on what content there is in this game that necessitates such items? Because last I checked most endgame content is accessible with even just Barrows equipment (which came out in 2006, I should add).
I refuse to touch the Inferno, expert ToA, and now the Colosseum without endgame gear, or 1b+. It's not a necessity, but I'm not investing the money and time involved unless I have a decent chance at actually learning and progressing. Doing it in mid game gear is soul crushing.
You should give it a try if you’re interested in the content. Whether you’re in max gear or rags, you’ll still have to learn the same mechanics. Max gear is obviously more forgiving of mistakes and speeds up kills, but it doesn’t really make you learn mechanics any faster. The difference is really just with lower level gear you’ll need to get to like 70% mastery to get a completion, but with max gear you’ll just need 60%. I’m not saying to go do inferno with an rcb for your first try, but it’s really not that much harder to do it with bowfa than with tbow.
No offense but that sounds more like a personal hangup than anything.
It is a personal hangup, and I'm not the only one. Not by far.
What do you mean you need 1b+ for any of that content? Inferno requires a bowfa, a reasonable setup starts at about 200m. Expert toa doesn’t even need a bowfa, Its reasonable to clear 300-350 solo with less than 100m worth of gear. Colosseum,a reasonable setup is less than 100m, 50m would even be more then enough. ToB is another sub 100m setup to get into, and on top of that, that sub 100m setup is what’s required when learning in some discords.
100m for that content is basically welfare gear, thank you for reading my entire comment before replying.
Only CoX and nightmare have atrocious drop rates afaik. All untradeable drops that serve no purpose like pets/jars/recolors don’t need to be adjusted
Tbf, Virtus drop rates are god awful. 1/1536 - 1/3264? Like what in the world is that?
I didn’t think about those. They’re definitely up there
I feel the drop rates are mostly balanced around these streamers people that play for like 10-18h per day instead of the average player. If they can afford to do that, big kudos to them, but the average player that can't afford to play for that long shouldn't suffer or stand these absurd drop rates because of them. OSRS is straight up disrespecting the average player's time with these drop rates, I mean, they always did disrespect but now I feel we're being thrown shit at our face kind of disrespect.
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“Maybe you shouldn’t play an iron if you don’t love going 5x dry” He said it, he said the thing
Post your stats?
Lol I have no balls in this game brother, I just laugh at shitty arguments and shitty math. I’m done grinding for items, and I have nothing to prove to you.
On one hand I agree some of the grinds in this game are absolutely miserable and have are plain unattainable for the majority of players that actually have jobs and responsibilities, but on the other hand, I've played Leagues and achieved basically everything possible within 6 weeks and the game gets really depressing when you have no other remaining grinds or goals to go for. I want drop rates to be reasonable and attainable for everyone, but at the same time it would be a real shame if so many players got to the point where there's nothing left to go for. Personally I'd rather a Tbow be a 500 hour grind and more or less accept the fact I'll never get one rather than it be a 50 hour grind and have it be over with in a couple months.
Even with 3x drop rates most maxed players would not be able to complete logs. With the amount of content nowadays there's still plenty. Corp could easily be a 1,000 hour grind. I believe only 1 or two players have everything logged as of now, the person that logged everything last year hasn't finished as of now since DT2 and colosseum was released. That person last year clocked at 22k hours of pure bossing... That's 3 years of playing if they played 24 hours a day... or 9 years if they played 8 hours everyday... Even playing osrs 40 hours a week it would take 10+ years, but there will be a lot more new content as there will be a few bosses/demi bosses added this year, so in reality at the rate we are going it's going to be impossible for anybody to finish the boss logs if they started this year, as new content brings rarer items and pets.
Play a different game
I’m with you
I'm not
I’m on the fence
What’s reasonable? If they’re too common they won’t be worth anything
The game revolves around ironmen remember
Worth is based on supply/demand (their current prices are only what they are due to how rare they are and how many people want them.)
They also undervalued because bots bring into the game many of the items that mains buy off the GE. Without them, again the prices would be higher, same demand and less supply.
I hold that the game already *has* bad luck mitigation- it's the gold you get from running bosses and selling other drops. The issue is players playing *without* bad luck mitigation and then complaining that there's no bad luck mitigation.
Nightmare would like a word
Correct, people want to play a restricted game mode and then complain constantly to have those restrictions removed. It's sad.
People play a game mode that is more entertaining (to them) 99% of the time and ask for the last 1% that isn’t entertaining to be made entertaining. That’s not hypocrisy
this is the game though. play a different game? or change a 20 year old one lol
I have terrible news for you
im just waiting for a re re release at this point
The crying never stops 😭😭😭
I know right? Someone posts their opinion to a public forum and here come all the whiners going "the crying never stops"
L take Even if a drop rate is "reasonable", let's say 1/100, you can still go dry and have to kill 500 which would still be annoying to players and cause complaining. It's all about expectation, if you expect to kill 100 and then end up having to kill 500 it will still suck.
Drops rates is what makes the game great stop crying and just get the drop its not that hard to be honest
Waaaah waaaah this monster I’m killing doesn’t drop rares as often as I want it to
Just go play RS3
Other way around m8 anyone who wants to make the game easier should be moving to rs3 like yourself
Ok but you dont need inquisitor, a vestige or whatever to play the game. The rings are barely bis, lightbarer beats them in most places. Inquisitor is nice as fuck. You could argue DWH is 1/5k but its from a normal mob and back in the day visage was also 1/5k or 1/10k even so. Everything else (except megarares) is reasonable. And mega rares should be rare