I agree with this sentiment
But ill also add, at 30 seconds a shaman its a bit over a 40 hour grind and thats okay
Now you're 4x dry and its 160 hours and i personally feel that is just anti fun. With 1/50 people going 4x a mechanic to mitigate bad luck doesnt really affect most, but saves a few from suffering
Yeah I was initially against the bad luck mitigation until I read the entirety of the post and, well, it's hard to side against his idea.
It pretty much only affects the crazy outliers. It'd be a good thing all around imo.
Im convinced these people have not read it or just do not comprehend it. If you do and oppose it, you just want others to suffer. The effect on general drop rates would be miniscule and would boost player retention which is crucial for the long term. Ive not gone super dry anywhere yet, but I have empathy - if someone has done 1500 CG kc that person deserves the drop already.
Also the "stop catering game to irons" is it really catering tho, if they still have to do 2-4x the amount of required median hours to obtain some items? And I'm not even iron myself
> Im convinced these people have not read it
We live in a world where clickbait title dominates and quite a few number of people not reading past those anyway. As someone who frequents /r/gamingsuggestions There is almost always someone who either recommends a game thats already written in the post or suggests something that only fits OPs criteria in an extremely small way
No, you don't E V E R deserve the drop in runescape and if you really feel as if you do and you're upset, play a different game this one isn't for you.
I believe it’s this one from about a week ago.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets\_talk\_about\_bad\_luck\_mitigation/](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets_talk_about_bad_luck_mitigation/)
There was actually a follow up to that where the guy mentioned only doing it for the first unique which would only buff the effective droprate by 1% and still have the same effecr
Agreed. I'm *still* on the side of not doing bad luck protection, and I have to admit that it is purely a vibes-based argument and I don't have much of a leg to stand on right now. The people who support bad luck protection have done their math and have a solid argument, anyone on the opposite side has to concede that, even if they still don't want it.
And thats totally fine tbh, i think its the same way for a few people
And if moat people dont vibe it, then we can just not add it or consider adding it, regardless if its good on paper or not
Yeah, and then you look at something like Bowfa. 10~ minutes for a 1/400. 67 hours for a huge combat buff. Fair enough. But there are people who are over 3x dry. A further 124 hours past drop rate. And they still have the same exact chance.
The items can still be rare, but we can have a protection somewhere between 1 and 3x rate for some of these long term grinds. Even if it’s only for the first drop of the item
The psychological benefits alone of just knowing your time and effort spent on a grind actually results in actual progress for those who are that dry would be amazing.
I was really thinking about getting back into the game. But reading this thread is making me reconsider. I'm not sure 40 hours average of monotony for a single item sounds enjoyable to me anymore...
It's not really relevant for non-irons, but even for irons it is very rarely as daunting as a straight X hour grind.
If we take the shaman's for DWH as an example. If you're an iron then you should take the opportunity to do every single lizardman task you get whilst doing slayer. By the time you're at a point in the game where you're starting to hurt from the lack of the hammer, you could already be 3k+ KC. And yeah, that's a drop in the ocean compared to the people going 3-4x rate, but still a good chunk of it at a faster kph than camping off task too.
Well you could consider 40 hours for a single item in WoW and then that item would be replaced by an entry level quest in <1 year.
The beautiful charm about OSRS is that it is absurd, yes... but your progress isn't invalidated. That is permanent progress that you just worked towards and those items have lasting power.
I went over 24k shamans for DWH around 4k of them on task, I went over 1k CG for ENH, around 1500 Bandos for tassets, BCP and BGS.
Currently have over 20M more range XP than friends that have been "on rate" and are further ahead in raids etc. than me.
The thing is, with bad luck mitigation you are still asking for at least 40-50 hours, but might save someone like me taking 240 hours.
Don't know if bad luck mitigation is the answer though. After going that dry it would still leave a bad taste in my mouth if I got the "pity" droprate.
To your last comment, I don't really get it, because there are plenty of things we get in this game already at a set KC, like vorkath head, kq head which allow us to progress with a diary or something, I don't see why just a slight buff to a drop rate is so bad in comparison
Yeah if the bad luck mitigation came when you were already over double rate it would effect such a small portion of the player base (positively) that nobody will notice except the people on the verge of quitting due to frustration.
I’ve had a pretty lucky account so far not going too far over rate on things I want and it’s still frustrating sometimes. For the unluckiest few, it might be worth it to throw them a bone after a while. It could be you someday
2005 methods 200m in all skills was certainly a different beast. Gowers didnt even really think people would get 99s let alone 200m
June 2005 zezima had less than 500m xp. Also he was the only person at 2079 total levels. Even more insane.
In part due to the humble origins of the game though. Now that it is run by a massive company with a large amount of devs it might as well be a different game. Analysis should be firmly grounded in the 2024 version of the game, naturally.
But isn't the whole point of Old School RuneScape being a reboot of the game we used to love? If we are not going to look back at our roots when determining where to go next, then what makes this game unique? It's certainly not the same game as it was in 2007 (and that's arguably a good thing) but can it not pull inspiration from the 2007 era?
I think it's honestly half and half.
The game itself is *simple*. That's mainly its staying power - an mmo based and pretty much rooted with the same idea as 2007 actual rs2 but just expanded on.
It's litteraly the best mmo in the market rn because it's frankly, simple.
But at the same time if it didn't change it would be a nostalgia box.
The nostalgia wears off in about 2 weeks and then it hits you this is an actual modern game just with good game design.
Absolutely. It is a beautiful game. It needed and needs updates to stay relevant and let us continue grinding for goals. Some of the best content is stuff added after the reboot.
It does pull inspiration as best it can but high level players need a challenge to stay and 2007 simply had zero challenging content compared to what exists today. So to stay equal or better we're at the point inspiration has to come from what exists now and not before for most content that provides end game drops.
Quests have largely been true to the games design though and always are providing stepping stone items while keeping the core game identity. Perilous moons is one of the best quest/boss combos that agree to the games roots, but beyond that we need rare and difficult to get powerful items, but they must be within reason or almost nobody will use them/go after them (Inquisitor armor) or dread chasing them under a dry streak (bowfa)
It started that way in 2013 but OSRS is 11 years old now. It is better in pretty much every way than the old 2007 era game and that is largely due to good updates that make content more engaging and/or more rewarding.
I mean gower didnt think anyone would get 99 when he initially released the game, he realised he was wrong pretty quickly. From what i can find the first 99s started coming in a few months after release.
200m all is ofcourse not meant to be achieved, but it also doesnt benefit a player in any way, i dont think thats a fair comparison.
Early RS had pretty achieveble droprates, and its pretty clear that somewhere between gwd en corp there is a bit of a change in the rs philosophy on how rare drops should be.
Corp was an outlier for years even after, the game didn't become this neverending loot grinds till RS3 and raids in OSRS
If y'all wanna say that you don't like bad luck mitigation and it takes away from the game fine, but don't pretend that the game being this neverending loot grind isn't a newschool addition in the first place and you're not just fighting to keep newschool content the same.
Pretty much. 3rd Age had a few BiS items, but the majority of gear in early RS2 was reasonably obtainable. Like Barrows was ridiculously easily for BiS. Whips were 1/512 from a non-boss and Defenders only 1/50. The BiS Gloves and Neit Helm were purchased post-quest. Then you got GWD gear which are still pretty common compared to some modern bosses. The only other outliers were DFH, which was really just cosmetic, and the DFS, which was a BiS. So overall pretty completable and nothing like the DWH was given such a high rarity.
BiS gear in runescape used to just be fun/grindy. Didn't require massive skill. You could just tank Bandos for your noob friends for instance. I kinda miss those days.
Shield left half in Classic was a ridiculously rare drop, looking at the 1/80k~ rate at shadow warriors, this was something that they clearly expected not everyone was going to get.
Forgot about that one. D Med was kinda rare like that too, but it was at a more reasonable rate from KBD (very different beast in Classic). So I guess it is kinda a weird thing of just making shields very rare since they did it again with the DFS.
But in both cases, they were more of "global drops" than a 1/5K from a specific monster. Like the shield was 1/87K from Shadow Warriors, but also 1/5.6K from KBD, 1/38.5K from Fire Giants, and so on. They also did majorly buff its drop rate in RS2 with the addition of the Ring of Wealth. So it was a very rare drop, but it didn't last long; it was added in August 2003 and the Ring of Wealth was released in March 2004, so within the year its drop rate was drastically reduced. Not to mention stuff like Goraks in 2006.
I don't think the ring of wealth actually worked like that in RS2, going through the history on the Wiki it states that its effect on the RDT was only added in 2016. Whatever it did in 2004 was probably quite different.
And yes, the shield half was a global drop, but I specifically picked shadow warriors because that would probably be the closest representation of the time investment required to get the drop - 87k shadow warriors is probably the fastest rate on the list. It's a multi-hundred hour grind in the end, and probably not something every player would have seen in their lifetime back then.
> I don't think the ring of wealth actually worked like that in RS2, going through the history on the Wiki it states that its effect on the RDT was only added in 2016. Whatever it did in 2004 was probably quite different.
It did work like that in 2004; that was the whole point of its effect. What OSRS changed in 2016 is it made it remove the nothing drop on the mega-rare table; prior to that it only reduced the number of nothing drops ([From the wiki prior to the update](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Ring_of_wealth?direction=next&oldid=1267762): "The ring of wealth is an enchanted ring that removes some empty drops from the rare drop table.").
I would have compared the pre-ring and post-ring rates, but I don't think its exact effect was known like drop rates are now so it felt best not compare. But I think it was somewhere like 1/87K to 1/43-65K. Either way, that was a BiS back in Classic that was absurdly rare to grind out, but you could also get it from a lot of things and it wasn't in the game for a year before they added an item that greatly buffed the drop rate. Also, as they added more monsters with RDT access, the odds of seeing it increased.
Yea but Andrew Gower said himself achieving even level 99 in anything was never meant to happen. He saw it as an absurdly high number and just put it there for the sake of it. From its very inception the game was never treated as a "completable" game, and I believe that's what OP is trying to get across.
Sure but that was initially on release. He didnt think people would play more than a couple hours, let alone play a couple hours per day. It was clear very quickly after release that people where going to get 99s.
IDK if this post is about bad luck mitigation or not, but if it is I'll respond.
Bad luck mitigation isn't providing an easier drop for anyone that hasn't gone over the drop rate. 40-50 hours isn't that insane for something as powerful as dragon war hammer but when you start reaching the 4-5-6x drop rate mark it quickly becomes so absurd.
1/50 players will get it in 160-200 hours / 1/200 players will get it in 200-250 hours / 1/400 payers will get it in 240-300 hours.
Does 12 and a half days of in game time ever seem reasonable to get a DWH? That happens to 1/400 people that will ever kill shamans and most will quit long before they reach that 30k KC mark. That just scratches the surface of grinds too. Bowfa is even more essential and is essentially twice as long to get as dwh. Tbow is even crazier than that.
Whenever I was grinding my bowfa I saw SEVERAL ironman accounts at 2k+ KC at CG still looking for that enhanced. Realistically every single one of them is 300+ hours into getting that one item. No one is asking for a handout when it comes to bad luck mitigation we're just looking to actually make the game fun for the extremely unlucky who have done more than enough to earn the drop already.
The outrageous drop rates are designed for and around bots, there’s really no other justification.
Probably a misguided attempt to stop them, prevent all these items they know are being bot-farmed from flooding the market, but really it’s just made those items only consistently attainable by bots.
What? Op you realise most of the stuff that makes it a long grind is "new gen" stuff?
And ironman mode is not meant to be "absurd". It's meant to be a gamemode where you need to get shit yourself.
What's with these absurd takes lately?
Also no one except the most extreme cloggers argue that the game should be "completable" as OP puts it. Hell of a straw man argument if I've ever seen one.
This is a maxed main who probably doesn't have a job and has never played ironman mode in his life. The last person who should have an opinion on something like this is OP lol.
I don’t understand the philosophy of “ironman shouldn’t be considered the baseline” when it comes to mandatory/endgame grinds. I think it’s a great baseline because you’re forced to actually engage with the content, as designed.
If the gameplay experience is roughly the same for irons and mains (e.g. shamans), buying uniques from the GE is just a way to skip prolonged engagement with that piece of content.
There’s nothing fun or interesting about killing shamans for 40hrs for a 1/5k drop. DWH isn’t a reflection of skill or talent, just how much time or money you were willing to throw at bad content to access better content.
When the servers shut off, I want to be able to look back at my time with OSRS as a long and varied journey with engaging fights and bosses. Going 4x dry on a mandatory piece of gear will stop that for players who want to engage with the content in the game, rather than grind GP to skip it.
If you have a hard time getting irons to engage with the content then you might as well just have made that content for bots because there's no way in hell a regular account is going to do it.
This is the mindset everyone should be coming at this with IMO.
It's not about irons crying because they can't buy the item.
We fucking want to grind. Please make it reasonable for us to fucking grind.
THIS. I’m a main but I get the appeal of grinding for the drops yourself and I do this anyways for some items. However I could never make an iron on the main game cause the length of the grind for some items is absolutely absurd.
It’s why leagues is my favorite way to play RuneScape and I really wish we had a permanent leagues server so that there was a more reasonable self sufficient mode to play for people like me.
Nail on the head, man. I'm surprised how many people don't pick up on this. If the content is so unenjoyable that a main won't even consider interacting with it, then that content probably has some significant issues. If anything, you experience what the game is truly like when you play ironman because you can't use GE to bypass content.
This exactly. I'm a long time iron who is finally getting into bossing and I am going dry on every single time I try and upgrade anything.
Over 2x on bowfa, I have roughly 50% of the drops I should have from barrows, etc, dry on cerb Crystals, etc
I was finally trying to engage with PvM and I'm stuck trying to upgrade for it.
Sure I can learn the content without it, but I suck. I would like gear so I can learn with at least some help.
>Ironman mode is meant to be absurd, not a regular MMO experience.
According to who, You? Show me in the rules where it says ironman mode is meant to be absurd.
And again missing (or deliberately straw-manning?)
the point with quoting the '40hr' grinds. People aren't attempting to erase these, they're trying to help those who go unlucky enough to make this a 150hr grind.
Yeah I’ve played an Ironman and a main honestly getting a pretty good Ironman is really not that absurd. May take a 1 or 2 years of casual game play to get a decent Ironman who can do most content. Ironically the easiest grind are the ones that have been in the game for a long time like dks, gwd, and the slayer grinds. Even bowfa isn’t that crazy assuming you don’t go insanely dry which 99% of iron won’t do. The most absurd grind are the one released most recently.
The only time Ironman mode is absurd is when you get insanely unlucky on one drop. This isn’t how the game was designed it’s just a by product of bad luck. When jagex codes an item to be 1/512 they expect a little over half to get it at that drop rate and the rest to get it at double the drop rate. Once you get to triple+ drop rate people are just getting screwed over by the by products of how rng works something that should be addressed.
The fact that there is an official game mode for it sorta proves the point that the game can be played as practically single player. The vast majority of the game is designed around playing by yourself. You aren't running vorkath, zulrah, CG, hydra, hespori, grotesque guardians, etc. with the boys. You aren't leveling construction, hunter, herblore, fletching, thieving, farming, cooking. crafting, etc. with the boys. Recent mini-games have made some skills more MMO but before it was just straight shit talk while fishing next to each other. Can't even properly slay together because co-op doesn't work in an MMO game. Quests are 99.9% single player experience. You have to earn BiS melee cape (inferno) & BiS range cape (quiver) yourself. Etc.
Saying Ironman is a single-player gamemode is disingenuous, and always has been.
Ironmen can still play alongside others, socialize with others, provide resources to their non-iron friends, engage in minigames with others, battle other players in PVP, and take part in raids and newer group bosses with others.
Trading is not a required aspect of an MMO. There are other large MMOs on the market that don't rely on player trading either, like BDO.
Lol. Ironman is and always has been absurd. ALWAYS.
Being a main is already a huge grind in its own right. From day one Ironman mode was going to be even more of a grind than being a main.
Ironmen chose the grindier game mode. Fucking please just a main if you can’t handle the grind brother. It’s disingenuous to say that you need droprates to be buffed because your restricted game mode is too slow for you that’s some bs.
Mainscape is balanced like an MMO should be balanced.
Ironman was made popular mainly by B0aty's one man army series. People did the challenge before that,but that's what made it get traction. They even put in a ginger NPC in to refer to that.
Anyway, at the time this was really not that insane. He wanted to max a zerker which meant d scim, torso, b ring, rune boots, rune defender...
The only 'long' grinds were 99 str, ranged, magic and getting a fury. That was max gear back then.
> Ironman mode is meant to be absurd
There's a lot wrong with your post but when I got to this I lost motivation to respond to most of it. What a horrendously bad take.
Is it though?
Some of the grinds are pretty absurd, especially if you go dry. There is literally nothing fun about them. Games should be fun to some extent.
It's like the dude the other day who got 200m xp on agility. I refuse to believe that was an enjoyable experience. I know people like different things but no, not that. That's just simply addiction.
Not even a take worth posting man. We aren't talking about 40-50 hr DWHs we're talking about 200 hour DWHs. just delete the thread, this all adds nothing
I vote we adjust all major upgrades to 1/5k.
Slayer helm/black mask for one is definitely too strong for you to be killing anything less than 10k cave horrors. Besides, without the extra artificial game time barriers, how will we motivate ourselves to RMT or dev bots??
The very people who wished from ironman mode's existence???? Like what? It was voted into the game with the premise being, you can't trade, this is not how the game is meant to be played, it's an extra challenge, things are not going to be made easy for you.
It's interesting when you say it isn't how the game was meant to be played. I come from a time when there was no GE and trading with other players was difficult, inconvenient, risky and a time-sink. My experience with ironman mode is that it is a lot closer to the original concept of the game from 2007 era than what a main account offers today.
I traded plenty too, but every time you traded you had to find someone who was selling what you wanted, usually they wouldn't have enough quantity so you'd need to find multiple sellers, try to get a price, avoid getting scammed, etc. Of course it was a hassle, but it was so much more fun. Forum posts for selling in bulk and having to purchase at a certain time and a place organized over the forum was interesting.
Point is, depending on what you were trying to buy and what times you could play, you would struggle to get what you wanted and often it was easier to just spend some time getting it yourself.
Even when you did buy stuff it still felt like you'd done stuff yourself and earned it, since it was all about finding deals and getting the right trade. GE killed that feeling for me and many other players, and having the ability to trade at a whim made the game boring. I've quit every main I had that ever got money, since for me the enjoyment is in the journey and not the destination.
I come from that same time, and trading wasn't any of those things beyond perhaps "inconvenient." It's trivial to find posts like [these](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/b4ungt/world_2_falador_trading_map_before_the_grand/) that show the different zones around the Falador and Varrock banks where you would go to trade depending on what it was you wanted to buy or sell.
There was certainly value in grinding everything out yourself, but people traded, and traded often, for things they couldn't or didn't want to get themselves. Pre-GE was about as MM as MMORPGs get, which is the complete opposite of the single-player ironman experience.
Certainly for any that require actual 100% completion (or anything even really close to it), that'd be totally pointless. But I don't think anyone has proposed that since it's so obviously not going to happen.
I think that would be truly unhealthy too. Not just for the game but for some of the people playing it. Like maybe the only time where gatekeeping makes sense.
The thing is that NM wasn’t pitched as a CRAZY grind like that, though. It was pitched as a more GWD-style drop table of mediocre drops until you hit a big one. But I don’t think many were signing up for the drop rates we got. Especially for gear that turns out to be fairly niche.
I agree. I think the issue with the unique drops themselves is that we were at a point where any power creep beyond status quo was very hard to sell to the community. What we ended up with was very mediocre as a result.
> Ironman mode is meant to be absurd, not a regular MMO experience.
I wouldn't say that is true. It was meant to be self-sufficient, but it was added prior to most the insane grinds for relevant BiS gear. While it isn't unreasonable for things to get a bit rarer, they did make a lot of content have ridiculously rare drops instead of just a reasonable rarity with higher difficulty.
So I'd agree that we shouldn't make things easier to complete just for the sake for Cloggers or such, but I don't think we should be opposed to making any reasonable changes just because it benefits X player group we don't want to support. Like I was pretty vocal about the Jar of Darkness being fine at its prior absurd drop rate and felt it was silly for Cloggers to push so hard for the drop to be made less rare just to it easier to greenlog, but it that is a silly cosmetic item with no real impact. When it is something like say an Imbued Heart, it is far more impactful (probably than intended too) so not quite the same situation. Though the way to tackle it might not always be "just make it more common" either.
This is what I think is lost on so many people. It’s insane that content is made that marginally impacts main accounts (bot economy) and hardcore fucks irons, people will cry that making things reasonably obtainable is catering to ironmen. I have 1258 EHB and I’m getting exhausted with endlessly killing bosses I’ve long since mastered for drops that I’m 3x rate for or more.
I think the solution for Imbued Heart is probably to just make Superior monsters more common. Maybe add a couple additional Slayer rewards you can purchase that increase the odds further. Because as it is there are several unique drops from Superior monsters and there's no way to grind for them except for constantly skipping tasks to always do tasks with monsters that can be superior and have better drop rates.
I don't think there is a great solution for the Imbued Heart. Like it was added to be like a Vecna Skull for OSRS, but the problem is that due to how magic differs in OSRS (e.g., more Powered Staves, more Magic Damage % that heavily skews to wanting higher base hits, less powerful Magic potions, etc.) it ended up being a lot stronger. Especially when we got a Saturated Heart that made it even stronger and turned it to 100% uptime of your max boost instead of just a +10 every 7 minutes...
So yah, the Saturated Heart and big weapons like the Shadow are really what "broke" it. Before then, it was more niche and not nearly as impactful. One thing that would greatly help is if we had a good Divine Magic Potion. The Saturated Heart is a perm +13 levels while the next best option is a +10 that decays. If we had a Divine +10 or a decaying +13 (without stat drains), that would provide a good alternative and put the Heart back as more of a convenience upgrade. But as it is, it is kinda like if a Super Str Pot was only from a super rare monster drop and you were stuck with normal Str pots until you get it...
With all that said, it probably wouldn't be terrible if we did buff the rate of superiors. It would be a big change and would increase Slayer exp per hour, but if Superiors were 1/100 instead of 1/200 and you unlocked them by default (or maybe they unlock by default and the shop unlock increases from 1/200 to 1/100... Or the shop unlock was just kept to toggle them off incase you didn't want them), that would probably make Slayer a bit more fun to train, especially at lower levels. But even if you doubled the heart's drop rate, I don't think it really "solves" it. If only that new Herblore activity was tackling the mage pot side of it.
Saturated heart should have never been +13 in the first place. It was, like always, players banging the table for OP buffs purely for the sake of it.
Saturated heart would have been a plenty powerful upgrade over forgotten brews at +10, but noooo.....
Nobody is trying to complete it, it's impossible, this game has no end game goal. There's a difference between progression and completion. People are looking forward to progression at the rate an item is dropped. Going 4-5x dry on the drop rate is not a healthy mechanic on a grind that averages 50 hours. Going 5x dry on a 50 hour grind turns to 250 hours of grinding an item that's vital to progression.. That is insane.
Agree with your post. I think completionist content should be left for when you have absolutely nothing else to do.
A green boss log or even a pet should be the cherry on top from a boss you enjoy so much you're willing to kill it thousands of times, rather than a checklist that HAS to be completed.
Personally I will never green log gwd. Not because it's super rare or anything, I just can not stand the content at all. So why would I subject myself to hundreds of hours there just to show someone a screenshot of the logs being green, instead of just... doing what I find fun. There's so much good content in this game, so many things to do. But people feel that need to do it all.
I'm really glad there's no completionist cape here, but seeing the current changes in the community and the direction of the game as a whole, it's probably just a few years away.
In my opinion, Ironman is partially to blame for people wanting to complete absolutely everything including gruelling grinds that no one enjoys.. and that's just not how the game has been designed up until recently. See: Abysmal drop rates. Many Irons now realize just how poor the rates are, so of course they want to improve them. I don't think many of them understand how bad it gets until late into their account, when the constant upgrades every few days or weeks are slowing down. When the honeymoon phase of "Omg look I got this rune axe all by myself" ends.
its also not designed to be a single player game.
you can play it single player, and clear all content totally alone, and get every drop on your own, but this is a challenge not intentional design.
>That said, things like DWH are incredibly powerful(if it wasn't no one would care) and asking 40-50hr to obtain it is not much.
> >*and asking 40-50hr to obtain it is not much.*
Why would any rational person listen to you?
You might not have anything better to do, but I promise you the rest of the playerbase does.
40-50 hours doing a brain dead mob too. 40-50 hours with a raid or boss with some mechanics seems much more reasonable. Having to grind shit content is the biggest offense to these items.
This is all I’m fucking saying bro.
I could just buy a maxed account with the money I’d make from 100 paid hours, which is what people are saying is reasonable to “earn” a dragon warhammer.
At the end of the day it’s just a fucking game, let’s make it more enjoyable.
Asking for people to commit to something that takes 40-50 hours in osrs is actually okay. Players of this game have often thousands of hours in. 40-50 hours is like 1 % of that time spent.
Maxing an account (if you realky dedicate time into it) takes 1600-3000 hours alone. Taking it easy, up to 5000 or 7000 hours. In this sense 40-50 hours is nothing. That's just like maxing one easy skill.
Game is about the journey, not the destination. If you spend 40-50 hrs over the course of a few months but you enjoy those 40-50 hrs that’s absolutely fine.
i don’t think you even understand what you’re commenting on cause blm has nothing to do with going on rate like your post seems to suggest with the lizard man shamans comment, it’s not about mitigating a 40 hour grind (although jagex is buffing the dwh drop rate regardless but that’s a seperate discussion) it’s about making those people that grind for 120, 140 possibly longer for their hammer just slightly closer to that 40 hour rate, instead of 140 hours maybe they’ll only be there for 100, that’s why that is about, nothing to do with people on rate
This is one of the shittiest takes I've ever seen.
'No you aren't supposed to complete your goals, you are supposed to sit there and grind a single boss/minigame for 600 hours and be miserable because that's what the game is supposed to be like. Ironman have to grind 1500 hours, because fuck em I guess. If you wanted to complete a game then maybe you should have bought a PlayStation.'
Dude go outside.
Yeah
The people that force themselves to max or do content because they HAVE to max or HAVE to clog; but don't enjoy it, keep asking for everything to be easier & quicker. Instead of just, not doing it
Completionism is a core appeal to many gamers, you can't just expect people to *not* care about completing things.
If there is a collection log, people **will** want to see it filled. Even if there isn't people will make their own.
Division of labour, as in - bots? Because please be my guest and go look. The only "People" farming DWH's are not people at all. Every world is ~3 bots and a rare ironman. Mains essentially never kill shamans. Like ever.
I haven't checked this sub for a while
Half the accomplishment of runescape, is that you get rng. They drip feed you dopamine. This is the very basic of video games, and for an mmo they got us hooked on Crack at a very young age.
The actual level of how wrong people are about what this game was. never ceases to amaze me.
what was the hardest thing to complete in 2005-2007. what? a quest cape, drop wise a dragon chain?? game was 100% meant to be completed, and drops obtained at a resonable speed.
shit only started becoming 1 in 5k 400hour death slogs in the last 7 or so years of oldschool. idk why people missremember history (prob because they werent even around back then) but it was always meant to be completed.
Mostly solid post that drives off a cliff in the last paragraph:
- 40-50hr is way too long for virtually any single item
- iron is absolutely not meant to be absurd, obv, it is simply rigorous self sufficiency
It just feels like we can more more content for content.
Why can't the drop rate be changeable through certain criteria. Like wintertodt pet goes from 1/5000 to 1/333 if you have 200 mil firemaking xp. No one is whinging about that.
I.e. there should be dry mitigation, but the requirement to mitigate it is worse than going 1.5x dry.
But if you hit the drop rate, go do this side quest to lower it.
Just a quick one on the NM comments. Why would you knowingly invest so much time into NM knowing how horrendous the drop rates are all whilst not valuing the drop table contents
Back in the day it was possible. Not anymore.
I still remember saving for a r2h because they were like 2.3m and only a few people in the game were able to.smith them haha
I 100% agree, but I still feel insanely rare drops that serve a purpose (DWH as an example, while pets and cosmetic only items being the exception) should not have drop rates so low the grind to get them takes the length of getting a skill to 99. That is dumb.
Nobody should have to kill more than 5000 of one enemy for an item. And ironman mode isn’t meant to be “absurd”, its design is actually closer to how the game was meant to be played pre-GE than a main is.
The game should not be designed around the GE.
Whoever opposes this idea is an idiot. It affects like 1/1000 players and they still have to grind out 4x.
Not to mention the economy market corrects and values for those items drop a fraction of a percentage overall.
This is great for the game, it keeps player retention, keeps people engaged to a specific monster.
If you lock it in for first drop only it’s a non issue.
It's pretty funny that you mention a DWH is a 40-50 hour grind, when that's on rate. The whole point people are trying to make with the bad luck mitigation is to limit the amount of people that end up with a 100+ hour grind. If you think a 100+ hour grind for a DWH is fine, that's all good, but bad luck mitigation wouldn't have any effect on the people that go on rate.
This game is more of a hobby, like a model or crafting project, that takes years and years and never quite finished, you stop for months or years and come back and chisle away at it a bit more. Never done, never finished.
The drop increases on nightmare (if those are still happening) probably have a bigger impact (or if not, a similar one) on total clog time than adding that one dry protection proposal to every boss in the game
The drop increases people *are asking for* on nightmare would dwarf the dry protection proposal
But yeah sure ezscape etc etc
I don't get the point of your post. I reckon a good upper bound on drop rate increase from bad luck mitigation is 5%. (i.e the expected kills to get drop go down by about 5%)
Also the discussion isn't about completionism
Like what are you talking about
If you cant beat a game.. whats the point of goals and achievements and progess. 5years from now you want this to suffer classics fate or the major decline and p2w rs3 has?
Nah this is a terrible take. Its not unreasonable for an ironman to have the goal of all mega rares + combat achievements + max cape which is basically "completing the game". Why should a few percentage of ironmen have to spend HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS more hours than rate (which is already ridiculous but acceptable) obtaining stuff like a tbow which is crucial for lategame progression on other content? Once youve gone double the rate on something obviously you just deserve it, anyone saying otherwise is deluded and has 0 reasonable arguments for it. It wouldnt effect the market value of any items either since a large sample size keeps the drops consistent anyways.
I hate how iron man mode has become the main focus of the game. If you fucking choose to limit yourself to a more difficult game mode then complain said game mode is too hard then you need help. Mains are and always should be the focus of the game
>This game was and is never meant to be completed
So?
Assuming this statement is true that isn't a defense. What it was "meant to be" doesn't change what it should be. Bad game design is bad game design whether it's intentional or not.
> Ironman mode is meant to be absurd, not a regular MMO experience.
Read above, who cares what it's meant to be if it sucks it sucks and should be improved.
Clearly the 5% of people going dry on bandos or bofa or DWH just dont deserve to play the game. Why make changes that make it so you can engage in more content. That would hust promote growth in this game and potentially lead to an increase in the player base. That would lead to change and we all know osrs is not allowed to change ever.
>This game was and is never meant to be completed
This sentiment holds true for 3a where the items are cosmetic and the rate is so unrealistic you can't even hope to get a piece without being absurdly lucky. It's less so on things that are useful and realistic to grind out.
Going unrealistically dry on things isn't fun. The game is meant to be fun. It is not against the nature of the game to have anti-dry mechanics that keep things fun.
A properly designed system would not take significant effect until drop rate is exceeded to some degree and not prevent people from getting lucky early on. The DT2 drop design system fail in that second part. Not all hypothetical systems do.
Let's say CoX for instance. A good working system would be that for every time you pull an item, its weighting is dropped by 5% of its original value. You would not be greatly more likely to get things until going well past the drop rate for them, and you could still pull 1 kc Tbows, but every purple would slightly increase the odds of pulling your goal item on the next purple. After 220 purples a tbow is guaranteed, but the odds become overwhelmingly likely in the low hundreds, roughly 3x rate.
Somebody who gets absurdly lucky early on might see moderate punishments to their gp/hr, so you can either add the ability to reset your weighting shifts or just not have too much sympathy for the guy who pulled 5 tbows in 100 raids.
And you weren't meant to be getting the xp rates you currently are in rsc. The Gower brothers never intended for people to get 99's let alone max. What point are you trying to make? This game is allowed to evolve and certainly has from rsc to what it was in 2007 to what it is now.
Ironman choose a game mode that makes everything way harder since the game is balanced around OTHER PLAYERS in an MMO. Fuck em, they signed up for 40+ hour grinds
Reddit needs to realize whatever voice of the week they're on. They don't speak for the majority of the player base. Y'all crying over here about drop rates doesn't matter
I agree with this sentiment But ill also add, at 30 seconds a shaman its a bit over a 40 hour grind and thats okay Now you're 4x dry and its 160 hours and i personally feel that is just anti fun. With 1/50 people going 4x a mechanic to mitigate bad luck doesnt really affect most, but saves a few from suffering
Yeah I was initially against the bad luck mitigation until I read the entirety of the post and, well, it's hard to side against his idea. It pretty much only affects the crazy outliers. It'd be a good thing all around imo.
Im convinced these people have not read it or just do not comprehend it. If you do and oppose it, you just want others to suffer. The effect on general drop rates would be miniscule and would boost player retention which is crucial for the long term. Ive not gone super dry anywhere yet, but I have empathy - if someone has done 1500 CG kc that person deserves the drop already. Also the "stop catering game to irons" is it really catering tho, if they still have to do 2-4x the amount of required median hours to obtain some items? And I'm not even iron myself
> Im convinced these people have not read it We live in a world where clickbait title dominates and quite a few number of people not reading past those anyway. As someone who frequents /r/gamingsuggestions There is almost always someone who either recommends a game thats already written in the post or suggests something that only fits OPs criteria in an extremely small way
They just don’t read and like to be reactionary.
No, you don't E V E R deserve the drop in runescape and if you really feel as if you do and you're upset, play a different game this one isn't for you.
Hey, what post are you referring to?
I believe it’s this one from about a week ago. [https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets\_talk\_about\_bad\_luck\_mitigation/](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1cgpo0k/lets_talk_about_bad_luck_mitigation/)
TLDR, buffing the effective droprate by only 5% (or less) dramatically reduces the chances of burnout.
I'd come back to see my enhanced seed through after a 2 year burnout.
There was actually a follow up to that where the guy mentioned only doing it for the first unique which would only buff the effective droprate by 1% and still have the same effecr
it doesn't though, mains can buy it, but "somebody" still needs to farm them items, it benefits everybody and not just ironmen
Agreed. I'm *still* on the side of not doing bad luck protection, and I have to admit that it is purely a vibes-based argument and I don't have much of a leg to stand on right now. The people who support bad luck protection have done their math and have a solid argument, anyone on the opposite side has to concede that, even if they still don't want it.
And thats totally fine tbh, i think its the same way for a few people And if moat people dont vibe it, then we can just not add it or consider adding it, regardless if its good on paper or not
Yeah, and then you look at something like Bowfa. 10~ minutes for a 1/400. 67 hours for a huge combat buff. Fair enough. But there are people who are over 3x dry. A further 124 hours past drop rate. And they still have the same exact chance. The items can still be rare, but we can have a protection somewhere between 1 and 3x rate for some of these long term grinds. Even if it’s only for the first drop of the item
And then there's poor 9Rain...
You can tell he’s avoiding it like the plague sometimes. And then he started going dry at Perilous Moons in his new video and was getting PTSD lmfao
I got an enhanced seed on my very first CG kill, i don't see what the big deal is :P ***/s***
I got a pet on 3kc
I got a pet on 8kc. In leagues. Oh how I wish it had been main game...
And then there's this guy...
I feel ya
I’m at 67 hours just trying to get good and only have 15kc
The psychological benefits alone of just knowing your time and effort spent on a grind actually results in actual progress for those who are that dry would be amazing.
I was really thinking about getting back into the game. But reading this thread is making me reconsider. I'm not sure 40 hours average of monotony for a single item sounds enjoyable to me anymore...
It's not really relevant for non-irons, but even for irons it is very rarely as daunting as a straight X hour grind. If we take the shaman's for DWH as an example. If you're an iron then you should take the opportunity to do every single lizardman task you get whilst doing slayer. By the time you're at a point in the game where you're starting to hurt from the lack of the hammer, you could already be 3k+ KC. And yeah, that's a drop in the ocean compared to the people going 3-4x rate, but still a good chunk of it at a faster kph than camping off task too.
That’s kind of all this game as buddy
Well you could consider 40 hours for a single item in WoW and then that item would be replaced by an entry level quest in <1 year. The beautiful charm about OSRS is that it is absurd, yes... but your progress isn't invalidated. That is permanent progress that you just worked towards and those items have lasting power.
Don’t play ironman mode if it’s not for you, personal choice
I went over 24k shamans for DWH around 4k of them on task, I went over 1k CG for ENH, around 1500 Bandos for tassets, BCP and BGS. Currently have over 20M more range XP than friends that have been "on rate" and are further ahead in raids etc. than me. The thing is, with bad luck mitigation you are still asking for at least 40-50 hours, but might save someone like me taking 240 hours. Don't know if bad luck mitigation is the answer though. After going that dry it would still leave a bad taste in my mouth if I got the "pity" droprate.
To your last comment, I don't really get it, because there are plenty of things we get in this game already at a set KC, like vorkath head, kq head which allow us to progress with a diary or something, I don't see why just a slight buff to a drop rate is so bad in comparison
Yeah if the bad luck mitigation came when you were already over double rate it would effect such a small portion of the player base (positively) that nobody will notice except the people on the verge of quitting due to frustration. I’ve had a pretty lucky account so far not going too far over rate on things I want and it’s still frustrating sometimes. For the unluckiest few, it might be worth it to throw them a bone after a while. It could be you someday
I mean from what i can tell third age was added end of 2006 and corp in 2008. Before that i think everything in the game was pretty completable?
2005 methods 200m in all skills was certainly a different beast. Gowers didnt even really think people would get 99s let alone 200m June 2005 zezima had less than 500m xp. Also he was the only person at 2079 total levels. Even more insane.
In part due to the humble origins of the game though. Now that it is run by a massive company with a large amount of devs it might as well be a different game. Analysis should be firmly grounded in the 2024 version of the game, naturally.
But isn't the whole point of Old School RuneScape being a reboot of the game we used to love? If we are not going to look back at our roots when determining where to go next, then what makes this game unique? It's certainly not the same game as it was in 2007 (and that's arguably a good thing) but can it not pull inspiration from the 2007 era?
I think it's honestly half and half. The game itself is *simple*. That's mainly its staying power - an mmo based and pretty much rooted with the same idea as 2007 actual rs2 but just expanded on. It's litteraly the best mmo in the market rn because it's frankly, simple. But at the same time if it didn't change it would be a nostalgia box. The nostalgia wears off in about 2 weeks and then it hits you this is an actual modern game just with good game design.
Absolutely. It is a beautiful game. It needed and needs updates to stay relevant and let us continue grinding for goals. Some of the best content is stuff added after the reboot.
You can not implement 2007 solutions in 2024, it just doesn't work like that. Especially when Jagex is owned by an investment group.
It does pull inspiration as best it can but high level players need a challenge to stay and 2007 simply had zero challenging content compared to what exists today. So to stay equal or better we're at the point inspiration has to come from what exists now and not before for most content that provides end game drops. Quests have largely been true to the games design though and always are providing stepping stone items while keeping the core game identity. Perilous moons is one of the best quest/boss combos that agree to the games roots, but beyond that we need rare and difficult to get powerful items, but they must be within reason or almost nobody will use them/go after them (Inquisitor armor) or dread chasing them under a dry streak (bowfa)
It started that way in 2013 but OSRS is 11 years old now. It is better in pretty much every way than the old 2007 era game and that is largely due to good updates that make content more engaging and/or more rewarding.
I mean gower didnt think anyone would get 99 when he initially released the game, he realised he was wrong pretty quickly. From what i can find the first 99s started coming in a few months after release. 200m all is ofcourse not meant to be achieved, but it also doesnt benefit a player in any way, i dont think thats a fair comparison. Early RS had pretty achieveble droprates, and its pretty clear that somewhere between gwd en corp there is a bit of a change in the rs philosophy on how rare drops should be.
Corp was an outlier for years even after, the game didn't become this neverending loot grinds till RS3 and raids in OSRS If y'all wanna say that you don't like bad luck mitigation and it takes away from the game fine, but don't pretend that the game being this neverending loot grind isn't a newschool addition in the first place and you're not just fighting to keep newschool content the same.
Pretty much. 3rd Age had a few BiS items, but the majority of gear in early RS2 was reasonably obtainable. Like Barrows was ridiculously easily for BiS. Whips were 1/512 from a non-boss and Defenders only 1/50. The BiS Gloves and Neit Helm were purchased post-quest. Then you got GWD gear which are still pretty common compared to some modern bosses. The only other outliers were DFH, which was really just cosmetic, and the DFS, which was a BiS. So overall pretty completable and nothing like the DWH was given such a high rarity.
BiS gear in runescape used to just be fun/grindy. Didn't require massive skill. You could just tank Bandos for your noob friends for instance. I kinda miss those days.
Shield left half in Classic was a ridiculously rare drop, looking at the 1/80k~ rate at shadow warriors, this was something that they clearly expected not everyone was going to get.
Forgot about that one. D Med was kinda rare like that too, but it was at a more reasonable rate from KBD (very different beast in Classic). So I guess it is kinda a weird thing of just making shields very rare since they did it again with the DFS. But in both cases, they were more of "global drops" than a 1/5K from a specific monster. Like the shield was 1/87K from Shadow Warriors, but also 1/5.6K from KBD, 1/38.5K from Fire Giants, and so on. They also did majorly buff its drop rate in RS2 with the addition of the Ring of Wealth. So it was a very rare drop, but it didn't last long; it was added in August 2003 and the Ring of Wealth was released in March 2004, so within the year its drop rate was drastically reduced. Not to mention stuff like Goraks in 2006.
I don't think the ring of wealth actually worked like that in RS2, going through the history on the Wiki it states that its effect on the RDT was only added in 2016. Whatever it did in 2004 was probably quite different. And yes, the shield half was a global drop, but I specifically picked shadow warriors because that would probably be the closest representation of the time investment required to get the drop - 87k shadow warriors is probably the fastest rate on the list. It's a multi-hundred hour grind in the end, and probably not something every player would have seen in their lifetime back then.
> I don't think the ring of wealth actually worked like that in RS2, going through the history on the Wiki it states that its effect on the RDT was only added in 2016. Whatever it did in 2004 was probably quite different. It did work like that in 2004; that was the whole point of its effect. What OSRS changed in 2016 is it made it remove the nothing drop on the mega-rare table; prior to that it only reduced the number of nothing drops ([From the wiki prior to the update](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Ring_of_wealth?direction=next&oldid=1267762): "The ring of wealth is an enchanted ring that removes some empty drops from the rare drop table."). I would have compared the pre-ring and post-ring rates, but I don't think its exact effect was known like drop rates are now so it felt best not compare. But I think it was somewhere like 1/87K to 1/43-65K. Either way, that was a BiS back in Classic that was absurdly rare to grind out, but you could also get it from a lot of things and it wasn't in the game for a year before they added an item that greatly buffed the drop rate. Also, as they added more monsters with RDT access, the odds of seeing it increased.
Ah, thanks for the link. Yes, that does make sense when combined with that one god letter explaining how the ring worked.
Still an actively developed MMO that gets updates, until it stagnates, pserver style, the goal keeps stretching.
Yea but Andrew Gower said himself achieving even level 99 in anything was never meant to happen. He saw it as an absurdly high number and just put it there for the sake of it. From its very inception the game was never treated as a "completable" game, and I believe that's what OP is trying to get across.
I mean, the Rune 2h was introduced pretty early on. Probably in part due to the nutty people that no lifed smithing in classic lol.
This game is so far from what runescape originally was. I don't see what that has to do with anything
Sure but that was initially on release. He didnt think people would play more than a couple hours, let alone play a couple hours per day. It was clear very quickly after release that people where going to get 99s.
IDK if this post is about bad luck mitigation or not, but if it is I'll respond. Bad luck mitigation isn't providing an easier drop for anyone that hasn't gone over the drop rate. 40-50 hours isn't that insane for something as powerful as dragon war hammer but when you start reaching the 4-5-6x drop rate mark it quickly becomes so absurd. 1/50 players will get it in 160-200 hours / 1/200 players will get it in 200-250 hours / 1/400 payers will get it in 240-300 hours. Does 12 and a half days of in game time ever seem reasonable to get a DWH? That happens to 1/400 people that will ever kill shamans and most will quit long before they reach that 30k KC mark. That just scratches the surface of grinds too. Bowfa is even more essential and is essentially twice as long to get as dwh. Tbow is even crazier than that. Whenever I was grinding my bowfa I saw SEVERAL ironman accounts at 2k+ KC at CG still looking for that enhanced. Realistically every single one of them is 300+ hours into getting that one item. No one is asking for a handout when it comes to bad luck mitigation we're just looking to actually make the game fun for the extremely unlucky who have done more than enough to earn the drop already.
again you cant reason with him look up is name on the highscores. dude is a full time osrs player who does not want things he has done to be easier
The outrageous drop rates are designed for and around bots, there’s really no other justification. Probably a misguided attempt to stop them, prevent all these items they know are being bot-farmed from flooding the market, but really it’s just made those items only consistently attainable by bots.
tfw im a neet that plays 10-14 hours a day and im still just a shitter 1600 total ironman
Do you bankstand for 14 hours?
get some education then you play like shit
What? Op you realise most of the stuff that makes it a long grind is "new gen" stuff? And ironman mode is not meant to be "absurd". It's meant to be a gamemode where you need to get shit yourself. What's with these absurd takes lately?
Some of these posts against bad luck mitigation are poorly thought out shit and it's hilarious.
There was another upvoted thread in which the OP literally said "I'm fine with the nightmare/corp drops because I don't care about them".
he is like base level 105 in all skills in osrs. he is just lost and thinks 150hr in-game grinds are good
Also no one except the most extreme cloggers argue that the game should be "completable" as OP puts it. Hell of a straw man argument if I've ever seen one.
This is a maxed main who probably doesn't have a job and has never played ironman mode in his life. The last person who should have an opinion on something like this is OP lol.
OP is a maxed iron with a youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/c/SoloJawn
I don’t understand the philosophy of “ironman shouldn’t be considered the baseline” when it comes to mandatory/endgame grinds. I think it’s a great baseline because you’re forced to actually engage with the content, as designed. If the gameplay experience is roughly the same for irons and mains (e.g. shamans), buying uniques from the GE is just a way to skip prolonged engagement with that piece of content. There’s nothing fun or interesting about killing shamans for 40hrs for a 1/5k drop. DWH isn’t a reflection of skill or talent, just how much time or money you were willing to throw at bad content to access better content. When the servers shut off, I want to be able to look back at my time with OSRS as a long and varied journey with engaging fights and bosses. Going 4x dry on a mandatory piece of gear will stop that for players who want to engage with the content in the game, rather than grind GP to skip it.
If you have a hard time getting irons to engage with the content then you might as well just have made that content for bots because there's no way in hell a regular account is going to do it.
Case in point: (Phosanis) Nightmare.
The day mains and pick-me ironmen figure this out, we can finally have reasonable discussions about the topic
This is the mindset everyone should be coming at this with IMO. It's not about irons crying because they can't buy the item. We fucking want to grind. Please make it reasonable for us to fucking grind.
THIS. I’m a main but I get the appeal of grinding for the drops yourself and I do this anyways for some items. However I could never make an iron on the main game cause the length of the grind for some items is absolutely absurd. It’s why leagues is my favorite way to play RuneScape and I really wish we had a permanent leagues server so that there was a more reasonable self sufficient mode to play for people like me.
Pnm moment
lol exactly pnm in a sentence
Nail on the head, man. I'm surprised how many people don't pick up on this. If the content is so unenjoyable that a main won't even consider interacting with it, then that content probably has some significant issues. If anything, you experience what the game is truly like when you play ironman because you can't use GE to bypass content.
This exactly. I'm a long time iron who is finally getting into bossing and I am going dry on every single time I try and upgrade anything. Over 2x on bowfa, I have roughly 50% of the drops I should have from barrows, etc, dry on cerb Crystals, etc I was finally trying to engage with PvM and I'm stuck trying to upgrade for it. Sure I can learn the content without it, but I suck. I would like gear so I can learn with at least some help.
>Ironman mode is meant to be absurd, not a regular MMO experience. According to who, You? Show me in the rules where it says ironman mode is meant to be absurd. And again missing (or deliberately straw-manning?) the point with quoting the '40hr' grinds. People aren't attempting to erase these, they're trying to help those who go unlucky enough to make this a 150hr grind.
Yeah I’ve played an Ironman and a main honestly getting a pretty good Ironman is really not that absurd. May take a 1 or 2 years of casual game play to get a decent Ironman who can do most content. Ironically the easiest grind are the ones that have been in the game for a long time like dks, gwd, and the slayer grinds. Even bowfa isn’t that crazy assuming you don’t go insanely dry which 99% of iron won’t do. The most absurd grind are the one released most recently. The only time Ironman mode is absurd is when you get insanely unlucky on one drop. This isn’t how the game was designed it’s just a by product of bad luck. When jagex codes an item to be 1/512 they expect a little over half to get it at that drop rate and the rest to get it at double the drop rate. Once you get to triple+ drop rate people are just getting screwed over by the by products of how rng works something that should be addressed.
playing an MMO in a single player fashion is pretty absurd
The fact that there is an official game mode for it sorta proves the point that the game can be played as practically single player. The vast majority of the game is designed around playing by yourself. You aren't running vorkath, zulrah, CG, hydra, hespori, grotesque guardians, etc. with the boys. You aren't leveling construction, hunter, herblore, fletching, thieving, farming, cooking. crafting, etc. with the boys. Recent mini-games have made some skills more MMO but before it was just straight shit talk while fishing next to each other. Can't even properly slay together because co-op doesn't work in an MMO game. Quests are 99.9% single player experience. You have to earn BiS melee cape (inferno) & BiS range cape (quiver) yourself. Etc.
Saying Ironman is a single-player gamemode is disingenuous, and always has been. Ironmen can still play alongside others, socialize with others, provide resources to their non-iron friends, engage in minigames with others, battle other players in PVP, and take part in raids and newer group bosses with others. Trading is not a required aspect of an MMO. There are other large MMOs on the market that don't rely on player trading either, like BDO.
The game had been balanced around trading for 20+ years lmao of course it's absurd
Iron man has existed for a long long time, and it's like ~30% of the player base. Don't act like it's some weird niche thing only masochists do
Lol. Ironman is and always has been absurd. ALWAYS. Being a main is already a huge grind in its own right. From day one Ironman mode was going to be even more of a grind than being a main. Ironmen chose the grindier game mode. Fucking please just a main if you can’t handle the grind brother. It’s disingenuous to say that you need droprates to be buffed because your restricted game mode is too slow for you that’s some bs. Mainscape is balanced like an MMO should be balanced.
Ironman was made popular mainly by B0aty's one man army series. People did the challenge before that,but that's what made it get traction. They even put in a ginger NPC in to refer to that. Anyway, at the time this was really not that insane. He wanted to max a zerker which meant d scim, torso, b ring, rune boots, rune defender... The only 'long' grinds were 99 str, ranged, magic and getting a fury. That was max gear back then.
Anti dry mechanics don't change nearly anything about the completability of this game. Stop suggesting it does.
> Ironman mode is meant to be absurd There's a lot wrong with your post but when I got to this I lost motivation to respond to most of it. What a horrendously bad take.
Agreed. There's no point in responding to this guy.
OP clearly has never played an iron lol.
As an iron I think he's completly right though? Economy based mmo played with no trading and limited group pvm.. seems absurd to me.
Is it though? Some of the grinds are pretty absurd, especially if you go dry. There is literally nothing fun about them. Games should be fun to some extent. It's like the dude the other day who got 200m xp on agility. I refuse to believe that was an enjoyable experience. I know people like different things but no, not that. That's just simply addiction.
Not even a take worth posting man. We aren't talking about 40-50 hr DWHs we're talking about 200 hour DWHs. just delete the thread, this all adds nothing
If that was true they wouldn't add more end game content
I vote we adjust all major upgrades to 1/5k. Slayer helm/black mask for one is definitely too strong for you to be killing anything less than 10k cave horrors. Besides, without the extra artificial game time barriers, how will we motivate ourselves to RMT or dev bots??
I second shifting the black mask to 1/5k then I can say I hit mine on rate as an iron instead of going near 10x.
Why don't the devs just give us maxed accounts with every item? Don't they respect our time?
Who the fuck decided ironman mode was supposed to be insane? That sounds like an opinion of yours.
The very people who wished from ironman mode's existence???? Like what? It was voted into the game with the premise being, you can't trade, this is not how the game is meant to be played, it's an extra challenge, things are not going to be made easy for you.
It's interesting when you say it isn't how the game was meant to be played. I come from a time when there was no GE and trading with other players was difficult, inconvenient, risky and a time-sink. My experience with ironman mode is that it is a lot closer to the original concept of the game from 2007 era than what a main account offers today.
I traded plenty when it was 2007? What even is this post, there were multiple market worlds with people trading. It was not hard to trade
I traded plenty too, but every time you traded you had to find someone who was selling what you wanted, usually they wouldn't have enough quantity so you'd need to find multiple sellers, try to get a price, avoid getting scammed, etc. Of course it was a hassle, but it was so much more fun. Forum posts for selling in bulk and having to purchase at a certain time and a place organized over the forum was interesting. Point is, depending on what you were trying to buy and what times you could play, you would struggle to get what you wanted and often it was easier to just spend some time getting it yourself. Even when you did buy stuff it still felt like you'd done stuff yourself and earned it, since it was all about finding deals and getting the right trade. GE killed that feeling for me and many other players, and having the ability to trade at a whim made the game boring. I've quit every main I had that ever got money, since for me the enjoyment is in the journey and not the destination.
I come from that same time, and trading wasn't any of those things beyond perhaps "inconvenient." It's trivial to find posts like [these](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/b4ungt/world_2_falador_trading_map_before_the_grand/) that show the different zones around the Falador and Varrock banks where you would go to trade depending on what it was you wanted to buy or sell. There was certainly value in grinding everything out yourself, but people traded, and traded often, for things they couldn't or didn't want to get themselves. Pre-GE was about as MM as MMORPGs get, which is the complete opposite of the single-player ironman experience.
Maybe but it was back then but it sure as hell isn't now. Dunno what the fuck he's on about
So we're all voting no for collection log rewards?
That cosmetic staff I'm totally fine with, anything non cosmetic is a big no from me dawg
Certainly for any that require actual 100% completion (or anything even really close to it), that'd be totally pointless. But I don't think anyone has proposed that since it's so obviously not going to happen.
I think that would be truly unhealthy too. Not just for the game but for some of the people playing it. Like maybe the only time where gatekeeping makes sense.
I'm voting no, but I fully expect it to all pass just like every poll does that's not pvp related or a new skill
The thing is that NM wasn’t pitched as a CRAZY grind like that, though. It was pitched as a more GWD-style drop table of mediocre drops until you hit a big one. But I don’t think many were signing up for the drop rates we got. Especially for gear that turns out to be fairly niche.
I agree. I think the issue with the unique drops themselves is that we were at a point where any power creep beyond status quo was very hard to sell to the community. What we ended up with was very mediocre as a result.
> Ironman mode is meant to be absurd, not a regular MMO experience. I wouldn't say that is true. It was meant to be self-sufficient, but it was added prior to most the insane grinds for relevant BiS gear. While it isn't unreasonable for things to get a bit rarer, they did make a lot of content have ridiculously rare drops instead of just a reasonable rarity with higher difficulty. So I'd agree that we shouldn't make things easier to complete just for the sake for Cloggers or such, but I don't think we should be opposed to making any reasonable changes just because it benefits X player group we don't want to support. Like I was pretty vocal about the Jar of Darkness being fine at its prior absurd drop rate and felt it was silly for Cloggers to push so hard for the drop to be made less rare just to it easier to greenlog, but it that is a silly cosmetic item with no real impact. When it is something like say an Imbued Heart, it is far more impactful (probably than intended too) so not quite the same situation. Though the way to tackle it might not always be "just make it more common" either.
This is what I think is lost on so many people. It’s insane that content is made that marginally impacts main accounts (bot economy) and hardcore fucks irons, people will cry that making things reasonably obtainable is catering to ironmen. I have 1258 EHB and I’m getting exhausted with endlessly killing bosses I’ve long since mastered for drops that I’m 3x rate for or more.
I think the solution for Imbued Heart is probably to just make Superior monsters more common. Maybe add a couple additional Slayer rewards you can purchase that increase the odds further. Because as it is there are several unique drops from Superior monsters and there's no way to grind for them except for constantly skipping tasks to always do tasks with monsters that can be superior and have better drop rates.
I don't think there is a great solution for the Imbued Heart. Like it was added to be like a Vecna Skull for OSRS, but the problem is that due to how magic differs in OSRS (e.g., more Powered Staves, more Magic Damage % that heavily skews to wanting higher base hits, less powerful Magic potions, etc.) it ended up being a lot stronger. Especially when we got a Saturated Heart that made it even stronger and turned it to 100% uptime of your max boost instead of just a +10 every 7 minutes... So yah, the Saturated Heart and big weapons like the Shadow are really what "broke" it. Before then, it was more niche and not nearly as impactful. One thing that would greatly help is if we had a good Divine Magic Potion. The Saturated Heart is a perm +13 levels while the next best option is a +10 that decays. If we had a Divine +10 or a decaying +13 (without stat drains), that would provide a good alternative and put the Heart back as more of a convenience upgrade. But as it is, it is kinda like if a Super Str Pot was only from a super rare monster drop and you were stuck with normal Str pots until you get it... With all that said, it probably wouldn't be terrible if we did buff the rate of superiors. It would be a big change and would increase Slayer exp per hour, but if Superiors were 1/100 instead of 1/200 and you unlocked them by default (or maybe they unlock by default and the shop unlock increases from 1/200 to 1/100... Or the shop unlock was just kept to toggle them off incase you didn't want them), that would probably make Slayer a bit more fun to train, especially at lower levels. But even if you doubled the heart's drop rate, I don't think it really "solves" it. If only that new Herblore activity was tackling the mage pot side of it.
Saturated heart should have never been +13 in the first place. It was, like always, players banging the table for OP buffs purely for the sake of it. Saturated heart would have been a plenty powerful upgrade over forgotten brews at +10, but noooo.....
Why not make the items from NM relevant?
Nobody is trying to complete it, it's impossible, this game has no end game goal. There's a difference between progression and completion. People are looking forward to progression at the rate an item is dropped. Going 4-5x dry on the drop rate is not a healthy mechanic on a grind that averages 50 hours. Going 5x dry on a 50 hour grind turns to 250 hours of grinding an item that's vital to progression.. That is insane.
10 days of your actual life lol. Unreal, honestly.
Agree with your post. I think completionist content should be left for when you have absolutely nothing else to do. A green boss log or even a pet should be the cherry on top from a boss you enjoy so much you're willing to kill it thousands of times, rather than a checklist that HAS to be completed. Personally I will never green log gwd. Not because it's super rare or anything, I just can not stand the content at all. So why would I subject myself to hundreds of hours there just to show someone a screenshot of the logs being green, instead of just... doing what I find fun. There's so much good content in this game, so many things to do. But people feel that need to do it all. I'm really glad there's no completionist cape here, but seeing the current changes in the community and the direction of the game as a whole, it's probably just a few years away. In my opinion, Ironman is partially to blame for people wanting to complete absolutely everything including gruelling grinds that no one enjoys.. and that's just not how the game has been designed up until recently. See: Abysmal drop rates. Many Irons now realize just how poor the rates are, so of course they want to improve them. I don't think many of them understand how bad it gets until late into their account, when the constant upgrades every few days or weeks are slowing down. When the honeymoon phase of "Omg look I got this rune axe all by myself" ends.
its also not designed to be a single player game. you can play it single player, and clear all content totally alone, and get every drop on your own, but this is a challenge not intentional design.
>That said, things like DWH are incredibly powerful(if it wasn't no one would care) and asking 40-50hr to obtain it is not much. > >*and asking 40-50hr to obtain it is not much.* Why would any rational person listen to you? You might not have anything better to do, but I promise you the rest of the playerbase does.
"Spend an entire work week on one item"
40-50 hours doing a brain dead mob too. 40-50 hours with a raid or boss with some mechanics seems much more reasonable. Having to grind shit content is the biggest offense to these items.
This is all I’m fucking saying bro. I could just buy a maxed account with the money I’d make from 100 paid hours, which is what people are saying is reasonable to “earn” a dragon warhammer. At the end of the day it’s just a fucking game, let’s make it more enjoyable.
So many people absolutely losing their shit over the tamest version of BLP I've ever seen.
Asking for people to commit to something that takes 40-50 hours in osrs is actually okay. Players of this game have often thousands of hours in. 40-50 hours is like 1 % of that time spent. Maxing an account (if you realky dedicate time into it) takes 1600-3000 hours alone. Taking it easy, up to 5000 or 7000 hours. In this sense 40-50 hours is nothing. That's just like maxing one easy skill.
Game is about the journey, not the destination. If you spend 40-50 hrs over the course of a few months but you enjoy those 40-50 hrs that’s absolutely fine.
Shamans are very, very much about the destination. No one enjoys shamans at 15k kc, I promise you.
You enjoy not getting a drop for 50 hours from shamans? I feel like you’re missing the point.
I don’t enjoy killing shamans so I don’t kill them. Do you enjoy killing shamans?
when are we just going to admit that most of runescape isn't fun
There’s a lot of content in the game - I’d be surprised if there wasn’t a large amount of things you enjoy in the game.
Green logging involves pets, which I have seen zero people suggest be part of the proposed changes. Same goes for clues.
OP wants aoe indicators, a less restrictive hcim, complains about rebalance, and complains about bots while ironman mode exists, great takes.
i don’t think you even understand what you’re commenting on cause blm has nothing to do with going on rate like your post seems to suggest with the lizard man shamans comment, it’s not about mitigating a 40 hour grind (although jagex is buffing the dwh drop rate regardless but that’s a seperate discussion) it’s about making those people that grind for 120, 140 possibly longer for their hammer just slightly closer to that 40 hour rate, instead of 140 hours maybe they’ll only be there for 100, that’s why that is about, nothing to do with people on rate
This is one of the shittiest takes I've ever seen. 'No you aren't supposed to complete your goals, you are supposed to sit there and grind a single boss/minigame for 600 hours and be miserable because that's what the game is supposed to be like. Ironman have to grind 1500 hours, because fuck em I guess. If you wanted to complete a game then maybe you should have bought a PlayStation.' Dude go outside.
Shit take
Collection log has really set this game up for failure, no one wants to do any crazy grinds but want all the rewards.
Yeah The people that force themselves to max or do content because they HAVE to max or HAVE to clog; but don't enjoy it, keep asking for everything to be easier & quicker. Instead of just, not doing it
Completionism is a core appeal to many gamers, you can't just expect people to *not* care about completing things. If there is a collection log, people **will** want to see it filled. Even if there isn't people will make their own.
Iron is meant to be self-sufficient, not absurd, Jesus Christ lol
Playing an MMORPG as a single player game is kind of absurd. You are suppose to rely on division of labour, not DIY everything.
Division of labour, as in - bots? Because please be my guest and go look. The only "People" farming DWH's are not people at all. Every world is ~3 bots and a rare ironman. Mains essentially never kill shamans. Like ever.
Getting an absurdly rare drop is part of the self sufficient though
I haven't checked this sub for a while Half the accomplishment of runescape, is that you get rng. They drip feed you dopamine. This is the very basic of video games, and for an mmo they got us hooked on Crack at a very young age.
Honestly when are we just going to remove Ironman mode so us players can just play in peace like we used to. They cry about everything
The actual level of how wrong people are about what this game was. never ceases to amaze me. what was the hardest thing to complete in 2005-2007. what? a quest cape, drop wise a dragon chain?? game was 100% meant to be completed, and drops obtained at a resonable speed. shit only started becoming 1 in 5k 400hour death slogs in the last 7 or so years of oldschool. idk why people missremember history (prob because they werent even around back then) but it was always meant to be completed.
Mostly solid post that drives off a cliff in the last paragraph: - 40-50hr is way too long for virtually any single item - iron is absolutely not meant to be absurd, obv, it is simply rigorous self sufficiency
Games, and their players, change over time. As for this guy we can change all his drops to 1/20k because that’s how it was meant to be for him.
For many, normal ironman mode isn't an "absurd challenge" it's the only real engaging way to play the game
[удалено]
Agree, only problem is irons crying
It just feels like we can more more content for content. Why can't the drop rate be changeable through certain criteria. Like wintertodt pet goes from 1/5000 to 1/333 if you have 200 mil firemaking xp. No one is whinging about that. I.e. there should be dry mitigation, but the requirement to mitigate it is worse than going 1.5x dry. But if you hit the drop rate, go do this side quest to lower it.
Brain rot comment. No one thinks every drop should be insta given to you but if your 3x the drop rate maybe an extra 5percent buff would be equitable.
I just want to max. Don't care for green logging one bit.
Just a quick one on the NM comments. Why would you knowingly invest so much time into NM knowing how horrendous the drop rates are all whilst not valuing the drop table contents
What is the main point exactly? Who's trying to change what? ( im genuinely asking not trying to sound rude)
You had me in the first half then started saying dumb things
*For financial reasons
Everything but collection log and 200m all and I'm done I swear
Back in the day it was possible. Not anymore. I still remember saving for a r2h because they were like 2.3m and only a few people in the game were able to.smith them haha
14 hours a day is child's play
I 100% agree, but I still feel insanely rare drops that serve a purpose (DWH as an example, while pets and cosmetic only items being the exception) should not have drop rates so low the grind to get them takes the length of getting a skill to 99. That is dumb.
Nobody should have to kill more than 5000 of one enemy for an item. And ironman mode isn’t meant to be “absurd”, its design is actually closer to how the game was meant to be played pre-GE than a main is. The game should not be designed around the GE.
Whoever opposes this idea is an idiot. It affects like 1/1000 players and they still have to grind out 4x. Not to mention the economy market corrects and values for those items drop a fraction of a percentage overall. This is great for the game, it keeps player retention, keeps people engaged to a specific monster. If you lock it in for first drop only it’s a non issue.
It's pretty funny that you mention a DWH is a 40-50 hour grind, when that's on rate. The whole point people are trying to make with the bad luck mitigation is to limit the amount of people that end up with a 100+ hour grind. If you think a 100+ hour grind for a DWH is fine, that's all good, but bad luck mitigation wouldn't have any effect on the people that go on rate.
This game is more of a hobby, like a model or crafting project, that takes years and years and never quite finished, you stop for months or years and come back and chisle away at it a bit more. Never done, never finished.
The coll log is cringe, people trying to make the game easier for something that will never be completed are weird
The drop increases on nightmare (if those are still happening) probably have a bigger impact (or if not, a similar one) on total clog time than adding that one dry protection proposal to every boss in the game The drop increases people *are asking for* on nightmare would dwarf the dry protection proposal But yeah sure ezscape etc etc
I don't get the point of your post. I reckon a good upper bound on drop rate increase from bad luck mitigation is 5%. (i.e the expected kills to get drop go down by about 5%) Also the discussion isn't about completionism Like what are you talking about
If you cant beat a game.. whats the point of goals and achievements and progess. 5years from now you want this to suffer classics fate or the major decline and p2w rs3 has?
Nah this is a terrible take. Its not unreasonable for an ironman to have the goal of all mega rares + combat achievements + max cape which is basically "completing the game". Why should a few percentage of ironmen have to spend HUNDREDS or even THOUSANDS more hours than rate (which is already ridiculous but acceptable) obtaining stuff like a tbow which is crucial for lategame progression on other content? Once youve gone double the rate on something obviously you just deserve it, anyone saying otherwise is deluded and has 0 reasonable arguments for it. It wouldnt effect the market value of any items either since a large sample size keeps the drops consistent anyways.
I hate how iron man mode has become the main focus of the game. If you fucking choose to limit yourself to a more difficult game mode then complain said game mode is too hard then you need help. Mains are and always should be the focus of the game
>This game was and is never meant to be completed So? Assuming this statement is true that isn't a defense. What it was "meant to be" doesn't change what it should be. Bad game design is bad game design whether it's intentional or not. > Ironman mode is meant to be absurd, not a regular MMO experience. Read above, who cares what it's meant to be if it sucks it sucks and should be improved.
Clearly the 5% of people going dry on bandos or bofa or DWH just dont deserve to play the game. Why make changes that make it so you can engage in more content. That would hust promote growth in this game and potentially lead to an increase in the player base. That would lead to change and we all know osrs is not allowed to change ever.
Honestly hard agree.Im just praying jagex doesn't listen to Reddit,I genuinely think this shit will ruin the game.
Ironman is definitely more absurd than having a main, not sure why so many of my fellow ironmans get so triggered when they see that word.
>This game was and is never meant to be completed This sentiment holds true for 3a where the items are cosmetic and the rate is so unrealistic you can't even hope to get a piece without being absurdly lucky. It's less so on things that are useful and realistic to grind out. Going unrealistically dry on things isn't fun. The game is meant to be fun. It is not against the nature of the game to have anti-dry mechanics that keep things fun. A properly designed system would not take significant effect until drop rate is exceeded to some degree and not prevent people from getting lucky early on. The DT2 drop design system fail in that second part. Not all hypothetical systems do. Let's say CoX for instance. A good working system would be that for every time you pull an item, its weighting is dropped by 5% of its original value. You would not be greatly more likely to get things until going well past the drop rate for them, and you could still pull 1 kc Tbows, but every purple would slightly increase the odds of pulling your goal item on the next purple. After 220 purples a tbow is guaranteed, but the odds become overwhelmingly likely in the low hundreds, roughly 3x rate. Somebody who gets absurdly lucky early on might see moderate punishments to their gp/hr, so you can either add the ability to reset your weighting shifts or just not have too much sympathy for the guy who pulled 5 tbows in 100 raids.
And you weren't meant to be getting the xp rates you currently are in rsc. The Gower brothers never intended for people to get 99's let alone max. What point are you trying to make? This game is allowed to evolve and certainly has from rsc to what it was in 2007 to what it is now.
Ironman choose a game mode that makes everything way harder since the game is balanced around OTHER PLAYERS in an MMO. Fuck em, they signed up for 40+ hour grinds
Reddit needs to realize whatever voice of the week they're on. They don't speak for the majority of the player base. Y'all crying over here about drop rates doesn't matter