It's a fun list, although I see some questionable choices. For instance I don't quite understand why Taliyah is an All-Rounder instead of a set-play and why Ivern is a Turtle instead of ... well a lot of things.
Taliyah probably should be set-play to be honest.
Ivern could be a lot of things. My vision for him was that he mostly doesn't fight, but he'll summon critters as either projectiles or multi-hit entities. Daisy comes out for the supers. He could possibly use the bushes to change where he summons creatures.
Ivern seem like a pretty hard character to adapt either way. We've seen the 2XKO team is ready to make change to the champion as long as it retains its identity but I'm not sure Ivern identity fits a fighting game at all, guess time will tell !
This is a categorized list of how I think characters would play if implemented in 2XKO, loosely ordered by how likely I think they'd be to fill the niche.
These aren't all super defined archetypes, but theres also 150+ characters in league and having just the tried and true archetypes would be uninteresting. A lot of characters would be more than one of these, so I moved them to whatever felt most descriptive. Let me break down what i mean by each category.
Glass Canon - Fast, Deadly and fragile. Able to ToD, or get damn close to it.
Rush Down - Rushdown. They want to be on your ass all the time. Good, likely short normals with powerful combos behind them.
Pixie - Annoyingly nimble, solid mixup game that comes partly from being able to cross you up at a moment's notice. Their speed allows them to choose when to play defensive or go on the offense. Longer combos with low damage on individual hits.
Trickster - Mixups, but not in blockstrings or movement. Just in annoying moves that force you to play their guessing game, like Faust GG.
Mixup - Rushdown with really strong blockstring mixups. Mostly low/high mix, but they might have an okay command grab as well.
Footsies - Aggressive, but slower than a rushdown character. Longer normals so they want to keep a bit of space in neutral and out range or punish opponents. Probably has some quick grounded movement options.
Grappler - Grappler. They grab you.
Corner Pressure - Probably the fakest archetype here. Aggressive with combos that are great at carrying opponents into the corner. They have important tools/moves that excel in the corner but are middling otherwise.
Zone-Breaking - Not as good at damage output as a Rushdown. Is better on top of opponents and has advancing moves that are really hard to stop (super armor, projectile invul, etc.). Their assist is probably really good into zoners.
Big Buttons - Big body, big normals. Probably some super armor somewhere. No other strong focuses beyond general aggression.
Shoto - Mid range. Good at being aggressive and decent defensive game. Has a projectile somewhere.
Mode Switch - Not simply that they have another mode to switch to, but that their other mode has a different gameplan. For example, Jayce isn't here because he'd use gun mode for pressure or to set up his approach rather than zoning. On the other hand, Lamb is fully a zoner, but can switch to Wolf's rushdown gameplan when they find an opening.
Set Play - For those unaware, set play typically refers to setting up traps/projectiles/other moves while an opponent is unable to act in order to keep them in a disadvantageous position. These would not be the only characters with the ability to do set play, but their most notable trait is their set play and being able to loop knockdowns into even more set play.
Hit 'n Run - Not purely defensive, but needs to keep some space. Can beat out opponents with little pokes and shorter combos.
Puppet - Zoner with some other entity they can summon and move to apply pressure or combo with them. Norra is here because I think she'd come with Yuumi as her puppet.
Area Control - Zoner, but their zoning comes from moves that threaten a specific distance/space rather than beams and projectiles. Might also have a trap they can set up for later.
Zoner - Zoner. Very defensive play, lots of projectiles and escape options. They always want to be outside of your range. Bad/weak normals.
Turtle - Zoner on steroids. Likely has something they can set up to do part of their zoning for them, or very strong get off me tools. Crumples instantly if an enemy actually reaches them.
Its not, but theres straight up too many characters to not divide them into stuff that isn't totally real.
By corner pressure, I mean they're very good at getting or keeping people in the corner and they have gameplan defining stuff that is pretty much only good in the corner. Illaoi is actually a pretty good example of what I'm trying to get at.
Ahri looks like a rushdown character tho. She has a dive kick, air dashes, etc... ahe looks like she is made to rush you. I saw a few clips of yasu using his projectile and she got on him before he could recover
She's very aggressive for sure. My main arguement for not putting her in rushdown is the orbs, especially now that they've been nerfed to recharging one at a time. Seems like a weird choice for a rushdown character to have a mechanic that forces them to back off to safety, no?
Of the cast we have now, she is in contention for being the most rushdown, but I wouldn't say she is the best example of a rushdown character that the game will offer.
I can see that, but from the footage I've seen Ahri doesn't have a way to do that safely. Whereas, Jamie has a few combos that guarantee a drink. Games not out so its definitely subject to change ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Stance Fighters should exist on this list as its a very big defining archetype, Yasuo is for example a stance character in 2XKO to be able to use some of his moves by going into a stance. I'd also say Nidalee could fall under that.
I definitely overlooked stance as being considered an archetype. I think in my mind I was going more for playstyles/gameplans than specific mechanics that typically define archetypes.
A stance character could honestly be anything because the concept is so non specific. Like, you could give Xerath an Artillery stance where he can't defend or move but he gets access to really strong poke tools. Putting him in a stance category alongside Yasuo tells me nothing about what he wants though.
Personally, I think Kindred will fit better as a puppet character as for those archetype to strive, they need tl work together and it fits Kindred "Never one without the other" quote better than mode switch
As a Briar otp, i see Briar as a kind off stance character. Just like ABA in Guilty Gear, she should be a jard Mix-up+Rushdown character when in Frenzy, and a Neutral reliant footsie in her normal mode to make her feel good.
I see others I dont agree with at all, but fun list. Some other changes i noticed are Gwen as a footsie (tho i can ser her as balance just like fiora) and i dont see Nilah as a Hit and run at all. Good job on the classification, i love this lists!!
Switch is specifically that their gameplan changes between forms. For instance, Mini-gnar would be more poke/zoning, but Mega Gnar is full on aggression. I think Jayce, Nid and Elise would have a consistent gameplan but have to switch to access more of their arsenal.
What if I told you that a lot of those aren't archetypes, but parts of fundamental gameplay which all characters use. Sure, some characters have an advantage in footsies or better corner pressure due to better normals, but it's not an archetype. Especially the way you out them. Yasuo's neutral isn't that great anyways. He's a death by 1000 cuts type character. Closest would be Chipp from GG. Super fast, low hp, low dmg with ong combos. He might have decent normals, but Ekko and Ahri are both better at neutral than Yasuo.
I'm well aware and there's even an entire comment about it. If I just said 50% of the cast is rushdown and midrange, what would be the point? I used more specific categories to actually share thoughts and have something to think about.
Also, Yasuo absolutely is not like Chipp? Literally every clip of him I've seen he's sitting back and poking until he can land a huge combo. Ekko and Ahri have way better movement.
As a huge kindred fan, I honestly think that would be an awful way to adapt them. Sure, its how they work in league, but kindred does not reflect their narrative well in league.
They're supposed to be dynamic counter parts of each other that represent different manners of facing death. They should be equally important in that duality. Making them a puppet character necessarily relegates one to being the "Main character" of the duo and makes them serve the exact same purpose.
A form-switching stance kindred allows lamb and wolf to show off their contrast in behavior and purpose while working together harmoniously.
Hmmm. That's an interesting idea!
I'm not opposed to it at all, I've seen the Project L team get creative before, so I'd love to see what they have in store for us! 🥳
Whenever I read kindred lore or listen to their voice lines, it does actually appear to be the case that (while they are equally as important, fulfilling each individual's role,) Lamb **does** actually call the shots every time.
This is likely due to the fact that, as opposed to Wolf, she's pretty cold-blooded and doesn't display much emotion, if any. Which is a good trait for a leader.
I think that's why it makes sense to have her be the "main character" with Wolf as support on her demand.
When you say form-switching, do you mean to actually control just 1 entity at a time? Because if so, I think THAT would actually go against their lore.
Kindred are always seperate, but never parted. They **HAVE** to play as 2 seperate entities working together with each moveset representing a different approach to the battle.
To part them (by only allowing 1 on screen at a time) seems like quite a crime to me.
But if you mean form-switching as in "You can decide who's supporting and who's commanding at will", then that's definitely a design angle!
The concept I had is effectively controlling one at a time, but one special button would be dedicated to "assist" specials that can also be used to trigger the swap.
For instance, lamb could have a special where wolf charges forward as a projectile and bites, causing a knockdown on hit. If the button is held, they switch off and you control wolf from wherever he stopped. Wolf's counterpart would be lamb flipping back to fire a volley. Good at keeping opponents in disadvantage, but can also be used to switch to lamb at a safe distance.
They wouldn't ever be really apart, but they're not doing the same thing at all times.
Seems like we've definitely had the same idea in terms of what that means then! That's definitely a viable design route as well. Can't wait to see what Riot does to Kindred 🥳
Stance - Yasuo, Kindred, Jayce, Elise, Udyr (sort of), Aatrox, Xin Zhao
Install - Gnar, Nidalee, Shyvana, Swain, Singed, Yi, Nasus, Renekton, Karma, Kayle (sort of)
Yasuo, Aatrox, and Xin get single move stances, Udyr's probably changes a few move properties and gives him new specials, the others would have full alternate movesets in their other stance.
Gnar, Nidalee and Shyvana's installs give them new movesets and specials, while the others are more traditional buff installs. Kayles is a level up that buffs and unlocks new moves, like SF6 Jamie but metered.
Edit: Zeri, and Bel'Veth likely also get installs. I think Voli and Briar's might be better as normal supers
In league of legends, sure. If we're taking her current state (LoR), cougar is clearly supposed to be the height of her abilities. I could see it being stance with a resource, like A.B.A, but I don't think its something she would get for free. Especially not if Jayce were to get in. Adapting both of them in the same way would be kinda dull and Gun/Hammer is definitely not an install.
the main thing he does with that hook is to cc you then pull you in, he'd have scorpions command grab basically, but also in league his e is about pulling you even closer, he wants to indulge in misery, so he keeps you as close as possible.
He wouldn't be a zoner, he doesn't play like a zoner in league, and he doesn't act like one.
On further thought, grappler is probably wrong but he's not a zoner. He ended up in grappler because I think he would absolutely have a command grab and I didn't think much further. I think a defensive Thresh would be really lame for his character.
Some sort of all-rounder with specials that force the enemy to play some high/low/grab mindgames could emphasize his cruel nature. Flay and hook could be used as specials/assists with inward knockback to set up the other teammate.
It's a fun list, although I see some questionable choices. For instance I don't quite understand why Taliyah is an All-Rounder instead of a set-play and why Ivern is a Turtle instead of ... well a lot of things.
Ivern is 100% puppet, no? 🤣
Could be a puppet, could be area-control, could be zone-breaking. Even in LoL Ivern is quite peculiar.
Taliyah probably should be set-play to be honest. Ivern could be a lot of things. My vision for him was that he mostly doesn't fight, but he'll summon critters as either projectiles or multi-hit entities. Daisy comes out for the supers. He could possibly use the bushes to change where he summons creatures.
Ivern seem like a pretty hard character to adapt either way. We've seen the 2XKO team is ready to make change to the champion as long as it retains its identity but I'm not sure Ivern identity fits a fighting game at all, guess time will tell !
This is a categorized list of how I think characters would play if implemented in 2XKO, loosely ordered by how likely I think they'd be to fill the niche. These aren't all super defined archetypes, but theres also 150+ characters in league and having just the tried and true archetypes would be uninteresting. A lot of characters would be more than one of these, so I moved them to whatever felt most descriptive. Let me break down what i mean by each category. Glass Canon - Fast, Deadly and fragile. Able to ToD, or get damn close to it. Rush Down - Rushdown. They want to be on your ass all the time. Good, likely short normals with powerful combos behind them. Pixie - Annoyingly nimble, solid mixup game that comes partly from being able to cross you up at a moment's notice. Their speed allows them to choose when to play defensive or go on the offense. Longer combos with low damage on individual hits. Trickster - Mixups, but not in blockstrings or movement. Just in annoying moves that force you to play their guessing game, like Faust GG. Mixup - Rushdown with really strong blockstring mixups. Mostly low/high mix, but they might have an okay command grab as well. Footsies - Aggressive, but slower than a rushdown character. Longer normals so they want to keep a bit of space in neutral and out range or punish opponents. Probably has some quick grounded movement options. Grappler - Grappler. They grab you. Corner Pressure - Probably the fakest archetype here. Aggressive with combos that are great at carrying opponents into the corner. They have important tools/moves that excel in the corner but are middling otherwise. Zone-Breaking - Not as good at damage output as a Rushdown. Is better on top of opponents and has advancing moves that are really hard to stop (super armor, projectile invul, etc.). Their assist is probably really good into zoners. Big Buttons - Big body, big normals. Probably some super armor somewhere. No other strong focuses beyond general aggression. Shoto - Mid range. Good at being aggressive and decent defensive game. Has a projectile somewhere. Mode Switch - Not simply that they have another mode to switch to, but that their other mode has a different gameplan. For example, Jayce isn't here because he'd use gun mode for pressure or to set up his approach rather than zoning. On the other hand, Lamb is fully a zoner, but can switch to Wolf's rushdown gameplan when they find an opening. Set Play - For those unaware, set play typically refers to setting up traps/projectiles/other moves while an opponent is unable to act in order to keep them in a disadvantageous position. These would not be the only characters with the ability to do set play, but their most notable trait is their set play and being able to loop knockdowns into even more set play. Hit 'n Run - Not purely defensive, but needs to keep some space. Can beat out opponents with little pokes and shorter combos. Puppet - Zoner with some other entity they can summon and move to apply pressure or combo with them. Norra is here because I think she'd come with Yuumi as her puppet. Area Control - Zoner, but their zoning comes from moves that threaten a specific distance/space rather than beams and projectiles. Might also have a trap they can set up for later. Zoner - Zoner. Very defensive play, lots of projectiles and escape options. They always want to be outside of your range. Bad/weak normals. Turtle - Zoner on steroids. Likely has something they can set up to do part of their zoning for them, or very strong get off me tools. Crumples instantly if an enemy actually reaches them.
Since when is “corner pressure” an archetype
Its not, but theres straight up too many characters to not divide them into stuff that isn't totally real. By corner pressure, I mean they're very good at getting or keeping people in the corner and they have gameplan defining stuff that is pretty much only good in the corner. Illaoi is actually a pretty good example of what I'm trying to get at.
I appreciate some of the LoR characters being here but leaving out poor king is criminal
Ahri looks like a rushdown character tho. She has a dive kick, air dashes, etc... ahe looks like she is made to rush you. I saw a few clips of yasu using his projectile and she got on him before he could recover
She's very aggressive for sure. My main arguement for not putting her in rushdown is the orbs, especially now that they've been nerfed to recharging one at a time. Seems like a weird choice for a rushdown character to have a mechanic that forces them to back off to safety, no? Of the cast we have now, she is in contention for being the most rushdown, but I wouldn't say she is the best example of a rushdown character that the game will offer.
Reminds me a bit of jamie. He is also rushdown but has to drink
I can see that, but from the footage I've seen Ahri doesn't have a way to do that safely. Whereas, Jamie has a few combos that guarantee a drink. Games not out so its definitely subject to change ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Stance Fighters should exist on this list as its a very big defining archetype, Yasuo is for example a stance character in 2XKO to be able to use some of his moves by going into a stance. I'd also say Nidalee could fall under that.
I definitely overlooked stance as being considered an archetype. I think in my mind I was going more for playstyles/gameplans than specific mechanics that typically define archetypes. A stance character could honestly be anything because the concept is so non specific. Like, you could give Xerath an Artillery stance where he can't defend or move but he gets access to really strong poke tools. Putting him in a stance category alongside Yasuo tells me nothing about what he wants though.
Personally, I think Kindred will fit better as a puppet character as for those archetype to strive, they need tl work together and it fits Kindred "Never one without the other" quote better than mode switch
You know what, make Nasus like Gordeau and I'll play him
As a Briar otp, i see Briar as a kind off stance character. Just like ABA in Guilty Gear, she should be a jard Mix-up+Rushdown character when in Frenzy, and a Neutral reliant footsie in her normal mode to make her feel good. I see others I dont agree with at all, but fun list. Some other changes i noticed are Gwen as a footsie (tho i can ser her as balance just like fiora) and i dont see Nilah as a Hit and run at all. Good job on the classification, i love this lists!!
Why Draven isnt another Rushdown
I don't know how Nidalee is not in switch, but I like it because it means more time to enjoy her human form
Switch is specifically that their gameplan changes between forms. For instance, Mini-gnar would be more poke/zoning, but Mega Gnar is full on aggression. I think Jayce, Nid and Elise would have a consistent gameplan but have to switch to access more of their arsenal.
ah yes, my favorite character archetype **footsies**
What if I told you that a lot of those aren't archetypes, but parts of fundamental gameplay which all characters use. Sure, some characters have an advantage in footsies or better corner pressure due to better normals, but it's not an archetype. Especially the way you out them. Yasuo's neutral isn't that great anyways. He's a death by 1000 cuts type character. Closest would be Chipp from GG. Super fast, low hp, low dmg with ong combos. He might have decent normals, but Ekko and Ahri are both better at neutral than Yasuo.
I'm well aware and there's even an entire comment about it. If I just said 50% of the cast is rushdown and midrange, what would be the point? I used more specific categories to actually share thoughts and have something to think about. Also, Yasuo absolutely is not like Chipp? Literally every clip of him I've seen he's sitting back and poking until he can land a huge combo. Ekko and Ahri have way better movement.
so who would be the stance or install characters? I feel like Kindred should have a stance and gnar an install
You don't think Kindred would be a puppet/setplay with lamb as point and wolf as assist?
As a huge kindred fan, I honestly think that would be an awful way to adapt them. Sure, its how they work in league, but kindred does not reflect their narrative well in league. They're supposed to be dynamic counter parts of each other that represent different manners of facing death. They should be equally important in that duality. Making them a puppet character necessarily relegates one to being the "Main character" of the duo and makes them serve the exact same purpose. A form-switching stance kindred allows lamb and wolf to show off their contrast in behavior and purpose while working together harmoniously.
Hmmm. That's an interesting idea! I'm not opposed to it at all, I've seen the Project L team get creative before, so I'd love to see what they have in store for us! 🥳 Whenever I read kindred lore or listen to their voice lines, it does actually appear to be the case that (while they are equally as important, fulfilling each individual's role,) Lamb **does** actually call the shots every time. This is likely due to the fact that, as opposed to Wolf, she's pretty cold-blooded and doesn't display much emotion, if any. Which is a good trait for a leader. I think that's why it makes sense to have her be the "main character" with Wolf as support on her demand. When you say form-switching, do you mean to actually control just 1 entity at a time? Because if so, I think THAT would actually go against their lore. Kindred are always seperate, but never parted. They **HAVE** to play as 2 seperate entities working together with each moveset representing a different approach to the battle. To part them (by only allowing 1 on screen at a time) seems like quite a crime to me. But if you mean form-switching as in "You can decide who's supporting and who's commanding at will", then that's definitely a design angle!
The concept I had is effectively controlling one at a time, but one special button would be dedicated to "assist" specials that can also be used to trigger the swap. For instance, lamb could have a special where wolf charges forward as a projectile and bites, causing a knockdown on hit. If the button is held, they switch off and you control wolf from wherever he stopped. Wolf's counterpart would be lamb flipping back to fire a volley. Good at keeping opponents in disadvantage, but can also be used to switch to lamb at a safe distance. They wouldn't ever be really apart, but they're not doing the same thing at all times.
Seems like we've definitely had the same idea in terms of what that means then! That's definitely a viable design route as well. Can't wait to see what Riot does to Kindred 🥳
Stance - Yasuo, Kindred, Jayce, Elise, Udyr (sort of), Aatrox, Xin Zhao Install - Gnar, Nidalee, Shyvana, Swain, Singed, Yi, Nasus, Renekton, Karma, Kayle (sort of) Yasuo, Aatrox, and Xin get single move stances, Udyr's probably changes a few move properties and gives him new specials, the others would have full alternate movesets in their other stance. Gnar, Nidalee and Shyvana's installs give them new movesets and specials, while the others are more traditional buff installs. Kayles is a level up that buffs and unlocks new moves, like SF6 Jamie but metered. Edit: Zeri, and Bel'Veth likely also get installs. I think Voli and Briar's might be better as normal supers
Should Kayne be install? I imagine him transforming into one of the other form at some point. Not sure if that counts as an install if it's permanent
Nidalee's more stance, her Cougar form is not supposed to be objectively better.
In league of legends, sure. If we're taking her current state (LoR), cougar is clearly supposed to be the height of her abilities. I could see it being stance with a resource, like A.B.A, but I don't think its something she would get for free. Especially not if Jayce were to get in. Adapting both of them in the same way would be kinda dull and Gun/Hammer is definitely not an install.
thresh has a giant hook how the hell is he a grappler hes a zoner like he litterally has like 450 range in league
the main thing he does with that hook is to cc you then pull you in, he'd have scorpions command grab basically, but also in league his e is about pulling you even closer, he wants to indulge in misery, so he keeps you as close as possible. He wouldn't be a zoner, he doesn't play like a zoner in league, and he doesn't act like one.
On further thought, grappler is probably wrong but he's not a zoner. He ended up in grappler because I think he would absolutely have a command grab and I didn't think much further. I think a defensive Thresh would be really lame for his character. Some sort of all-rounder with specials that force the enemy to play some high/low/grab mindgames could emphasize his cruel nature. Flay and hook could be used as specials/assists with inward knockback to set up the other teammate.