That one scene from Dark Imperium, where that null bomb goes off, and the Death Guard start shrieking as they REALIZE what state they're in? Shooting them was definitely a mercy.
That passage was incredible and one of my favorite parts of the lore
The veil being lifted as one sees precisely how damned they are, it’s like a horror movie death.
Like just imagine realizing that the sentient, constantly vomiting mouth that used to be your belly *doesn’t actually belong there*
I honestly don't like it. In most Death Guard books, the plague marines are shockingly cognizant of what they are- in things like Lords of Silence, they even get a philosophy which they are allowed to justify. I think this takes agency away from that in a way that's boring, and reduces an interesting reflection on the cycle of death and life and rebirth and love and despair and pain and numbness down to "they have Pyro from TF2 vision lol", and yet it's been embraced by the fans so hard to the point where it's all anyone ever talks about when they bring up plague marines...
Totally disagree! I didn’t feel like it was Pyro vision, more so I felt like a plague marine’s acceptance of such gifts still hinges on the god’s constant attention, which I thought was beautiful when you consider how it was seen in Dark Imperium vs Lords of Silence (personally I think they compliment each other well).
Those gifts / mutations may be a sincere reflection of life, decay and all that Nurgle encompasses, but they mean absolutely nothing when he isn’t there to give them meaning. Now it’s just a disease, it’s just literal (now dead) flies in your intestines, it’s just an empty fanged mouth on your body, and your organs don’t work because they’ve long been replaced.
Also I was just happy to see plague marines in agony, I mean look at my flair, I’m a bit biased :p
That's fair in a way - I suppose when separated from all the symbolism and they have, Nurgle's plagues just kind of kill you horribly - but it still feels odd to me that the followers themselves would be horrified by specifically *what they have become*, or at least that most of them would - in pain for the first time in a long time, yes - but Nurgle's philosophy is, at its core, about the apathetic acceptance of death and life. It feels weird that people dedicated to a philosophy about accepting misery and death as inevitable parts of existence would just immediately turn heel and completely reverse their entire belief system upon actually being confronted with misery and death. Though, I suppose there is room for other perspectives, certainly. Not to get too deep into the weeds of mental health here, but even in my actual, *real* life I've occasionally had sobering, *terrifying* moments where I've thought "Oh my god, look at me, this is my life... *for until I die...* What even am I anymore?", and I could imagine moments like that being even more painful for someone who is literally rotting from the inside.
We're dealing with pretty complex mixes of emotions and ideas here...
I just like it when chaos followers wax poetic about stuff and aren't just dumb caricatures for loyalists to beat up, idk.
I think a philosophical acceptance becomes harder when you feel centipedes wriggling through your veins. Nurgles gifts include the ability to endure such circumstances, which lends to their philosophy. Without the ability to endure such circumstances, you would be less circumspect about them
Nurgle doesn't preach apathetic acceptance of death.
Read the initial Realm of Chaos books. Nurgle shtick is that humanity denial of death and decay, then the utter despair when that fails is what feeds him .
All the energy and effort you put in to keep healthier, more youthful looking ... Then the despair when that fails is what empowers him .
So my take on this is that the Death Guard apathy is because Nurgle has literally fed all the despair out from them. And when that was cut off, they began feeling it again.
Because never forget. The idea that this is Nurgle gift to you, a mutation.... In and as of itself is a lie that Nurgle feeds on.
Citation
Realm of Chaos , the lost and the Damned
Nurgle is the Great Lord of Decay. He is also the Lord of All, because all things, no matter how solid and permanent they seem, are liable to physical corruption. Indeed, the very processes of construction and creation foreshadow destruction and decay. The palace of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation stone of everlasting regret.
What is the response of living men to this undeniable and inevitable futility of life? Is it to lie down and accept death and the coming to nought of every endeavour! No it is not! Faced with the inevitability of death what answer can there be but to run through life at a breakneck pace, cramming each day with hope, laughter, noise and bustle? Thus, happiness and human endeavour are sired by a coming to terms with decay and futility. This realisation is the key to understanding the Great Lord of Decay and his worshippers.
Once we comprehend what it is that the Chaos Power Nurgle embodies, it becomes easier to understand what might otherwise seem a contradictory or even perverse nature. On the one hand he is the Lord of Decay, his body wracked with disease; on the other he is full of unexpected energy and a desire to organise and enlighten.
The living know they will die, and many know that they will live with disease or other torment, yet they drive this knowledge into a corner of their minds and keep it pinioned there with all manner of dreams and activity. Nurgle is the embodiment of that knowledge and of the unconscious response to it, of the hidden fear of disease and decay, and of the power of life which that fear generates.
Nurgle is the eternal enemy of the Chaos Power Tzeentch. Nurgle and Tzeentch draw their energy from opposing beliefs. Whereas the energy of Tzeentch comes from hope and changing fortune, that of Nurgle comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. The two Great Powers never lose an opportunity to pit their forces against each other.
- nurgle energy comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. Once that energy got taken away by the null bomb .........
I think the fact that most of the Death Guard were unwilling recruits is also a factor, sure they can try to justify it post-hoc when the influence of Nurgle has already settled into their bloated flesh. But not one of them wanted it, aside from Typhus and maybe a few others, and being faced with what they've become without the mind altering influence of the Plague God would probably be pretty damn horrifying
It's not pyro vision at all and it's been bought up like that in several books.
It's like a sort of warp induced sense of normalcy. In one of the Horus Heresy books a Death Guard marine is given a Nurgling and he kind of flip/flops between being disgusted by it and loving it unconditionally for a while before the love overpowers his common sense. He knows that it's a disgusting sack of sentient puss, but Nurgle's spell makes it seem like a normal thing to find it adorable.
Plague Marines probably have this weird cognitive dissonance going on at all times where they kind of think "It's not that bad really, I'm a bit changed but not that much"
More like a drug addiction than Pyro vision.
Wasn't there a short story about a guardsman who was captured by the Death Guard (or something) and when he tried to escape back to his friends, he eventually learned to his horror that he himself became unrecognizable with pox, mutations, etc?
Iirc, the revelation instantly made him insane, so he ended up charging against his friends.
Sorry, I meant just the passage like what’s usually posted on this sub.
Definitely interested in reading the book eventually, but that’s after so many other books!
The Dark Imperium novel trilogy follows Guilliman 10 years after his revival from stasis. He's leading the Indomitus Crusade and desperate for a brother to talk to, so naturally Mortarion invades Ultramar. I personally recommend reading (at least a summary of) Rise of the Primarch, and the Watchers of the Throne duology, before Dark Imperium. The first Dawn of Fire novel also helps, but Dark Imperium is fairly readable on its own.
I think the best example of the horror of Nurgle I can think of is at the beginning of Warhawk, when several Plague Marines are talking about their new powers and condition, and to summarize it all they could really say is
"Well at least I'm not in pain!" And that's kinda all they could feel
They were so hyper fixated on the fact that they weren't in pain, and ignoring the fact that they weren't feeling anything else. Towards the end it has some of them heading off towards the Lions gate Spaceport I believe, and again he's basically just saying "but at least I'm not in pain!" As he realizes everything that's happening to his body. I always imagine tears in his eyes
They had also been waylaid in the warp and tortured with Nurgle's greatest diseases and agonies for an indeterminate amount of time. "At least I'm not in pain," is as much a sentiment about how their circumstances have *improved* as it is a justification of their current condition. You can see how their perception is already twisted by Nurgle the moment they give in to despair and serve him, if it'll just make the pain stop.
You'd be surprised how much "at least I'm not in pain" can be a blessing.
If you live in constant pain, for days weeks months, the absence of it is relief beyond compare.
I deal with a lot of pain. Back pain that can debilitate me for days, kidney stones, and another thing that isn't polite to discuss but supposedly hurts as much as childbirth. When the pain has been
going on for what feels like forever, despair starts creeping in. When the pain stops suddenly, weeping in relief is not uncommon.
And this is all just normal body stuff a huge portion of all humanity has to deal with. It must be so much more intense with deliberately caused pain.
As someone with a condition that regularly puts him in pain but has other effects “at least I’m not in pain” is a surprisingly good reason to accept your current condition.
A fair enough answer, but my point was more they traded bad for worse, just so the bad would stop. Your situation is different
To me at least it reads less as relief and more as justification. They basically traded a porn addiction for a heroin addiction
Well that’s the thing. For them it *isnt* worse. Because they don’t feel it. This is the true “corruption of chaos” they everyone always talks about. These gifts are truely gifts and their horror doesn’t matter. Because it’s nurgle that gave them the gifts and nurgle takes the pain away.
Exactly!!!! Despair, hopelessness.... Then defiance....
Realms of Chaos: the lost and the Damned.
Nurgle is the Great Lord of Decay. He is also the Lord of All, because all things, no matter how solid and permanent they seem, are liable to physical corruption. Indeed, the very processes of construction and creation foreshadow destruction and decay. The palace of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation stone of everlasting regret.
What is the response of living men to this undeniable and inevitable futility of life? Is it to lie down and accept death and the coming to nought of every endeavour! No it is not! Faced with the inevitability of death what answer can there be but to run through life at a breakneck pace, cramming each day with hope, laughter, noise and bustle? Thus, happiness and human endeavour are sired by a coming to terms with decay and futility. This realisation is the key to understanding the Great Lord of Decay and his worshippers.
Once we comprehend what it is that the Chaos Power Nurgle embodies, it becomes easier to understand what might otherwise seem a contradictory or even perverse nature. On the one hand he is the Lord of Decay, his body wracked with disease; on the other he is full of unexpected energy and a desire to organise and enlighten.
The living know they will die, and many know that they will live with disease or other torment, yet they drive this knowledge into a corner of their minds and keep it pinioned there with all manner of dreams and activity. Nurgle is the embodiment of that knowledge and of the unconscious response to it, of the hidden fear of disease and decay, and of the power of life which that fear generates.
Nurgle is the eternal enemy of the Chaos Power Tzeentch. Nurgle and Tzeentch draw their energy from opposing beliefs. Whereas the energy of Tzeentch comes from hope and changing fortune, that of Nurgle comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. The two Great Powers never lose an opportunity to pit their forces against each other.
Every single fucking lore statement vs one scene in a book the author said was “good because I don’t really have to put in much effort”
Believe it or not the god of resignation who is directly opposed to tzeentch, don’t rely on illusions and delusions, his followers are just genuine nihilists
Yea. The whole "it's all an *illusion* they're actually crazy and think everything's cool and normal until they get hit by a no-warp bomb and they see how *horrifying* they are" bit reduces the agency of Nurgle-aligned characters in a way that changes them from a group with a theoretically really interesting philosophy which directly speaks to the decay and stagnation of the Imperium into just "They just have Pyro from TF2 vision lmao". Nurgle represents death, life, eternity, cycles, entropy, and giving in to the inherent darkness of an uncaring universe- and often his followers justify that philosophy in really interesting ways. Don't get me wrong- it's not necessarily a *good* philosophy- but it is certainly an interesting one from a fictional perspective, and this bit of lore that the fandom seems to love bringing up at every opportunity they can really just makes something theoretically really interesting just feel like a caricature.
The idea that they'd all just collapse into a puddle of poo if they ever get severed from the warp because they're sad that they're not pretty anymore instead of holding to a belief system that they've committed themselves to for millennia just feels... idk, not in-character for a group defined entirely by a philosophy of nihilistic apathy.
Deception, self-delusion and self-destructive blindness to reality are the domains of Tzeench and Slaanesh. Nurgle is the god of seeing the eternal, grinding wheel of life for exaxtly what it is. Nurgle is entropy laid bare for all to see.
I could see both. There would be true believers that would wax poetic about their condition and argue until the end of all things. There would also be some that got caught up in the delirium and would have their minds shattered if the brain fog was ever to be lifted. It doesn’t cheapen it to have it like that. For every true believer there is a someone else just kinda there. Think of cult members that have had that sudden realization of the state they’re in sometimes and almost lose it. Now have them come out of it with their skin falling off and they can’t scream for the yellowish fluid that’s bubbling out of them. It doesn’t make it more one dimensional to have people react in different ways, it humanizes them.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I think you have a very interesting take.
I just wanted to argue that yes, Nurgle does represent entropy and the unstoppable, irreversible way of things, that everything will wither and die. But he also wants people to suffer and feel despair. The entropy he presents isn't objective - his followers aren't just infected but also *mutated*, with tentacles, fly hives and phlegmy maws.
It's entirely possible to have agency and eke out a philosophy in this IMO, and nihilism isn't a bad take on life when your irreparably diseased. But it's also important to point out that Nurgle craves servitude. His poxwalkers and Plague Bearers don't really represent nihilism in this way, because Nurgle in the end does enforce a purpose - to worship him.
The Death Guard are further under Nurgles spell because he makes them inured to the agony they would naturaly feel, to the point they can relish their change. IMO that's not a "real" appreciation of entropy since they don't really suffer the consequences of it. The null shells take that spell away, and the agony becomes real. I can absolutely see Marines dying in horrendous pain and anguish.
What about becoming a space pirate, joining the Tau empire, living with a colony of the Leagues of Votann or just finding then living on a peaceful planet that the Imperium forgot about due to like a bureucrat's clerical error that quietly "seceded" from the Imperium?
T’au are castes and vassals with a “Brahmin” class that seemingly has a form of mind-control due to pheromones or Warp exposure, everything else is quickly stomped by other major factions or xenos like the crazy psyker Cacodominus… along with insane AI systems and such
You gotta be ready to die wherever you are as the galaxy is one of the universe’s slum of crimes against reality as far as we know. Everything on the Kardashev Scale would likely lock their doors when driving past the Milky Way
The Tau are all about accepting willingly humans into the Greater Good and have them serve as military auxiliaries and construction workers and farmers and whatnot. So long as a Gue'vesa respects their Tau superiors, does their assigned job decently and doesn't take part in any terrorist insurrections a Gue'vesa gets a pretty good life with good living standards supported by futuristic technology rather then being forced to basically toil away in a Victorian era like hovel.
It's like how alot of people living in the Soviet Union had (for the time) fairly decent living standards compared to the international average standard the majority of humanity had to deal with even though it was not a good life by Western European or North American standards and it was basically a dictatorship.
Also the Tau are one of the mightiest factions in the setting.
Alternatively since it's literally an entire galaxy and galaxies are gigantic it's still likely there are many relatively peaceful isolated corners of the galaxy even if we never hear about them.
In 40k, much like real life, the theme of people having odd and often catastrophic picks for their sacred cow is one that repeats and keeps a detrimental plot thread going
How much of it is actually good governance and not an “it’s for your own good” iron fist in a velvet glove?
The Tau are pretty pragmatic though. Like they are almost all atheists but they let their vassal races join whatever religion they want so long as the religion is not anti-Tau or anti-Tau empire in general.
Many humans in the Tau empire who still worship the God Emperor of Mankind are allowed to keep officially openly worshipping him with an organised religion with masses every weekend and priests and religious services and everything so long as their denomination of the Imperial Truth does not support speciesism or human supremacy in general.
Also the living standards under the Tau controlled worlds are said to be pretty good in general with like well functioning high tech futuristic cities which implies at least like skyscraper apartments, high speed trains for public transit, decent tasty healthy mass produced food, doctor robots, etc.
One downside is that the Tau cannot eat meat and presumably want to preserve resources by not raising many animals for meat so almost all the food available within Tau communities is vegetarian. Not that terrible of a downside though all things considered.
The Tau are not just being altruistic, they genuinely need more alien military auxiliary troops to help conquer land from and defend against their numerically superior enemies so even if the Tau became like "bah we dislike all humans now" they would not get rid of the humans in their empire or even necessarily threat them any worse since right now they literally always need more people for their factories, farms, armies, etc.
Also since the Tau's number one priority is defending the land they already have and they don't use human auxiliaries in military campaigns unless it's physically necessary in order to avoid social friction within the Tau military, even a human soldier who spends his entire working life in the Tau military will in all likelihood just spend his entire working life doing boring yet pleasant enough guard duty at well defended worlds deep within the Tau empire.
Stop listening to memes for lore.
Nurgle makes his followers so apathetic to their condition that they think they're blessed and closer to Nurgle. None of the Chaos gods care about their followers, they just utilize different smokescreens to keep them on the path of damnation.
I agree.
At best, it's an abusive relationship where the followers are told "if you just work a bit harder, then daddy Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch will notice you". Of course, every now and then someone does receive a blessing, but that's just part of the act so the followers can continue to believe that one day they might be the ones chosen.
From the books I’ve read it also seems that the chaos gods don’t always “choose” who to “bless”.
It seems there are also just plenty of powerful people hungry for more, so they commission archaeology and adventures and all sorts of other narratives to steal and capture anything that will give them power.
So even the idea of a “blessing” from the chaos gods seems misaligned. Many of these villains-of-the-week are downright stealing power they don’t understand and we’re already corrupt sons of bitches before hand.
The agency of the chaos gods doesn’t seem to be a consideration in all the stories….more like chaos is a seductive potent form of hell-meth that many are very willing to try.
That's an interesting way to think about it but I think we get some prominent examples of chaos gods actively blessing their prominent followers.
Now these "blessings" are dubious at best. They are almost never just power for the sake of power. There is almost always something taken. The foremost Astartes followers of the big 4 are probably the best examples.
Typhus, is "blessed" with the destroyer hive. I can't really find a passage where Typhus describes the blessing as anything but a blessing. He's absolutely enamored with Nurgle and all of his blessings. Now, the core tennents of Nurgle is all about despair and acceptance. There's ample evidence that being the host to the destroyer plague is a miserable experience. Anyone around it describes the buzzing as a drill in your skull. Accepting this miserable existence is like the core of Nurgle. Turn your despair and misery into acceptance.
Lucius is way more obvious. He's blessed with raw power and is constantly ressurected. These ressurections come at the price of never being able to best whomever killed him. Slaanesh being Slaanesh, this hit to the ego of Lucius is basically torture.
Ahriman has been manipulated by Tzeetch for a while. I'm just beginning my reading into the 1ksons so correct me if I'm wrong. Ahriman, while a psyker, is also a sorcerer. Sorcerers get their power directly from the Chaos gods. Ahrimans price for his sorcery was dooming his brothers with the Rubric and searching for a way to undo it. All the while being deceived and manipulated into doing Tzeetchs will without even actively worshiping them. Pretty juicy.
Kharn just strong as fuck boy. He was kind of already experiencing the downsides of Khorne worship before it became official. The nails took care of that. If the nails were all part of Khornes plan, then there's you're downside. Chicken or egg? I don't know enough to say.
When examining all of these Astartes champions and their blessings, it is pretty clear they all have a caveat. Further the goals of your God or your powers can always be taken. I think that sums up the idea of "blessings" about as accurately as can be done.
Edit:Spelled Slaanesh right. And Tzeentch.
Yeah, but 3 out of those 4 seem to be fine with this. In fact, to an extent that they don't seem to be seeking Princedom, which is very interesting. It's very understandable why Chaos Gods don't want to grant that, but you have to have a special mindset to not chase after the ultimate prize that 99.9% of champions are after. Idk Lucius' deal, and Ahriman is not even a worshipper, but Khârn and Typhus seem to be content doing what they're doing.
Lucius is an avid worshipper to Slaanesh. They *all* enjoy their status, as they all embrace what that status is. Ahriman is just so entranced by blind hope that he deludes himself into imagined freedom, blissfully unaware to even his own mutations. His face is described as a screaming void by someone who claims to have seen it.
I hate to admit this, but I spelled it wrong one time and my phones autocorrect always changes it to Slaneesh now. I don't know how to stop it lol. I will edit the post
I forgive you <3
Also, it's really no big deal. Half the joke is how seriously I take it...
^(even though it does secretly bother me a lot when I see it. That's a me-problem, though - not a you-problem.)
This has happened to me various times with various words from fandoms. Now, idk what kinda phone/ keyboard setup you got, but when it happens to me (auto-correct 'locking in' incorrect spellings), type the offending word until it populates in the auto fill section, then 'long press' on it. Mine gives me the option to delete the word. Then I can type it correctly and 'save' it.
Might work, might not. Worth a shot; you can always just fight auto-correct and take pride in your victory over the machine god when you prevail 👍.
> that the chaos gods don’t always “choose” who to “bless”.
>
Inasmuch as they're sentient beings with the freedom to 'choose' anything (a very debatable idea), they do. Chaos worshippers digging for this or that artifact or this or that forbidden tome to get 'power' are just borrowing from the Warp, which Chaos Gods don't control directly or fully (otherwise neither Imperial psykers nor the Eldar would be able to use psychic powers). The Chaos Gods' "blessings" are genereally either directly giving their followers warplore or mutating their bodies, and they can even theoretically take back those blessings if they choose.
> Stop listening to memes for lore.
Please say this louder.
I'm of the firm belief that a lot of memes are pure toxicity to lore in games. I've been a Battletech fan for over 30 years, and the things people truly believe there because of memes is absolutely batshit insane compared to the real lore.
I like a good joke, but memes just become beaten horses that new fans can't distinguish from facts. It's really tiring.
I'm a bit worried if someone genuinely believes that some pox-ridden, maggot-infested, rotting and pus-filled fellow is deliriously jolly that somehow equate to Nurgle being a good and wholesome sort.
This.
Grandpa Nurgle loves you, *whether you like it or not*. His ideas of gifts and blessings are abhorrent, and his idea of easing your pain and suffering is to just make you apathetic towards it.
He's as jolly as Santa, but you'd rather get coal in your stockings instead of whatever Nurgle gives you.
Exactly that.
Nurgle cares about his servants. It just so happens that what he views as good and caring is not that to a sane mortal.
He isn't lying or gaslighting them or whatever. As far as he's concerned he's genuinely caring.
Nurgle do care about his followers and that's the lore...
Though it would be like a Volcano loving a tribe that worships it, so it gives them lots of lava.
It's not even that they utilize smokescreens, it's just that these embodiments of concepts continue to be embodiments of the concepts, and the more trapped by that concept you are, the more you become like it.
Khorne is bloodshed, rage, frenetic violence, etc. When you're a Khornie, you do all the same, and this can result in you getting ripped apart into a bloody effigy to khorne. Maybe you're so far gone that you don't care. But probably not, because Khorne cares not, etc. Khorne sees it and goes "HA HA HA, THAT'S COOL!" and keeps right on Khorning as soon as you're no longer actively bleeding and being torn up.
A big part of Nurgle is the decay, including the decay of caring about things. There are no real Nurgle Zealots after long enough, because, well, death and rot is inevitable, why try and force it? So while as you approach the pinacle of Khorne-ness you approach a pinacle of suffering, and could potentially suffer more, Nurgle doesn't care about suffering, just entropy. Greater chance to be A-okay with whatever.
Chaos gods are like damnation gravity; they just ARE. Pulling you inexorably toward whatever personal direction of Down they represent. Nurgles is just... snottier than the others.
There is lore for nurgle being jolly.
His plague beasts (can't remember their actual names) are full of playful energy. They find friends and play with them until they sadly can't move anymore, then find new friends.
Okay? Demonettes have fun dancing and painting walls with blood. That's doesn't change what they do. Executioners can enjoy their work, they're still executioners. Enjoying evil doesn't make them good, they just suffer less than their victims which is the MO of all the chaos gods' forces
>Demonettes have fun dancing and painting walls with blood.
They're entirely self-aware about the horrificness of their actions and thus are actively malicious, the Beasts of Nurgle aren't. Not until they lose one "friend" too many and their joy has been eroded to nothing, replaced with unending hatred for all life that induces a metamorphosis into a Rot Fly, which will then constantly seek to spread suffering to all that it encounters.
No, the meme lore is that he's just lying to them. People thinking they're being big-brained about chaos despite not having actually bothered to read the main lore about them.
The codex lore is very clear that he cares about his servants. But he's a chaos god, his care has terrible results to any sane person. The point is that he cares but no-one should actually want that because of course what seems good and caring to such a god is awful to us.
No? Nurgle imo is one of the more insidious ones because his influence and plagues can affect far more people on average than any of the other gods. I think he causes the most suffering with the trauma and sickness he spreads. Read the Plague Wars trilogy or at least Dark Imperium, he isn't overt, he slowly chokes civilization.
Yep, there's a real thematic reason why G-man's first real struggle is against the forces of Nurgle, he's symbolically fighting the stagnation and apathy and slow decline that's killing the Imperium.
I wrote a wall of text in a reply only to scroll down and finding out you wrote essentially the same thing but more to the point. Brevity is the soul of wit.
Nurgle cares somewhat about his followers. He’s a jubilous corruptive influence. While he doesn’t have genuine love he does obviously care about his creations and nurglings and all that
As much as Slanesh is the “drugs and rock and roll god” , I view Nurgle as a parallel to Opiate addiction. Followers may be super content in there day to day, moment to moment existence. Completely unfazed as their life crumbles around them. Nothing could hurt them emotionally or physically.
It feels good, takes away all the pain of living in this shit hole of a galaxy. You could call it happiness, euphoria even. But overtime they waste away, get sores growing all over their body, veins shot. They might start to notice it early and think about turning back. But if they do they’ll feel even more sick without it.
They watch it destroy them, but if they stop now they’ll feel the pain of what they become set in. Best to stay in the warmth, the love of their “happy place” for another day. Until their corruption/addiction leaves nothing left…
The really important aspect of all of this that people often forget which you highlight is that each aspect highlighted above could manifest in a variety of different ways.
40k tends to highlight the varieties that get models whilst the lore emphasises the sheer variety of chaos.
No
It's part of the horror factor as most nurgle daemons are very joyful and skip around etc just think of nurglings. A lot of plague marines are pretty content and have a "uh whatever attitude". It's very disturbing to read
However nurgles gifts are like, extra bone, rotting from the inside, having giant flies burst out your skin, becoming a plague bearer which is its own brand or torment etc
Except for Ku'gath, of course. It's weird seeing a Great Unclean One in such a miserable state.
Not that I have much sympathy for him, mind you, but still.
Ku'gath is pretty much an incarnation of self-loathing as an aspect of despair, the same way Skarbrand is a manifestation of the self-destructive nature and mindlessness of anger.
Have you seen the stop motion movie Coraline? He’s like the Other-Mother it’s a love but love like one loves a doll or possession, not true love for a child
Nurgle thinks he loves his children but he can never know what love is and a child under abuse will never know the difference and therefore shall go on to show ‘love’ to others just as the followers of Nurgle spread his love (Plagues)
Yes it’s a abusive cult leader kind of love.
Nurgle is like a domestic abuser and represents toxic relationships.
I heard many people saying how Nurgle does or does not “love” his followers and i think it’s a oversimplification.
Nurgle in the lore always seemed like Mother Gothel from Tangled (that’s a weird comparison to make) where Gothel repeatedly gaslights Rapunzal and traps her for access to her hair.
Nurgle does the same thing to his followers giving them “love” so they stay host to his real children of microorganisms.
it reminds me of IRL cults who prey on peoples yearning for community and who “Lovebomb” people with gifts and praise so they join and stay in the cult.
He isn't. The lore says he cares about his servants. He isn't gaslighting them.
He is, however, a chaos god, whose view of what is good is, of course, very very different from ours, and should be avoided at all costs.
I like to imagine there are still happy/peaceful star systems without Mandeville points, so nobody will ever likely bother them. Except for nosey Necrons, maybe. Maybe humans live there, colonized millennia ago by sleeper or generation colony ships. Or maybe they're occupied by alien species no one will ever discover.
Eh, but there are. For all the talk GW says of “everyone is bad!!” They pretty frequently let characters who act like genuinely good people through the cracks. It’s just not really talked about.
> It’s just not really talked about.
Feel the moral lamentation is basically every week on this subreddit, so I don't think that's true.
And I doubt GW has at any point said "There exist no person that is good, everyone is bad and we portray them as bad-guys." -- though there are authors who portray a more noblebright version of a protagonist than you'd expect out of this horrid galaxy.
I just don't see it as a much of an endemic problem as people sometimes make it out to be. You can make novels and characters who act intrinsically "good" in the most brutal regime imaginable without it is meant to validate said brutal regime.
Wholesome Nurgle is one of the worst memes to ever come out of this fandom. He’s the literal chaos god of despair and apathy. He mindfucks his followers into being happy by making them incapable of hoping for anything better than what he makes them suffer
Hell no, and his daemons aren’t nice cuddly creatures that want to play either. Nurgle is closer to your abusive creepy uncle who enables your worst thoughts. His “love” is domestic abuse if you consider his followers “his family”.
Beasts of Nurgle are.
But they can't avoid killing you by trying to play with you. They try to play with you, then get disappointed when you stop moving.
The fact that some of nurgles followers ACT wholesome while doing the most hideous and disgusting things makes it even more terrible and disturbing. His followers can't feel pain (because that's Slaanesh) but having them smile with their guts hanging out makes it worse. They're like Juju zombies.
Basically both.
Without any direct contact from Nurgle cultists, people who're suffering from Disease and desperately seek respite will start off wanting to get better, then they hope not to get worse, until eventually a name rise to their minds "Nurgle." and they start to feel better even though their condition hasn't improved.
Nurgle is the warp equivalent of growing addicted to painkillers. The addict who slams their hand in a car door in order to get a prescription. Nurgle's love is as pure as love gets in 40k, and you're willing to do whatever they want to feel it.
Here is a great write up about Nurgle:
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/wkqdwu/an_exploration_of_grandfather_nurgle_the_most/
But to answer your question, he does genuinely love his followers, but he is a chaos god and his concept of "love" is very different from mortals. Imagine being loved by the continuous cycle of life and death, It's all very abstract.
>Dantine glances about him. He sees complex calculations traced in brown ink on thick parchment. He sees rusty devices – armillary spheres, sextants, chronometers – half-covered in mildew-spotted cloth.
>
>‘You call us ignorant,’ he says, trying to sound defiant. ‘And yet, look at you. Look at the conditions you live in. Do you not disgust yourself when you pass a mirror? Do you not see what you could have been?’
>
>The crow laughs. Dantine tenses, ready for a blow from the armoured monster, but it never comes.
>
>Philemon looks thoughtful. ‘But I was in the warp,’ he says. ‘When we were becalmed. I still remember. I scratched the days on my armour, one after the other.’
>
>Dantine listens. He doesn’t know what the monster is talking about, but says nothing. The crow listens. The Little Lords still their quarrelling, and they listen too.
>
>‘When the Destroyer came, I resisted it. We all did. We had been trained for it and we had resisted everything, up until then. Defiance, or else death. Every Legion taught that to some degree, and we taught it more than most. I thought there was nothing I could not endure that did not kill me.’
>
>The Tallyman is not focusing now. He is witnessing events far away.
>
>‘But we were out of time, in the end. There were no days to mark anymore. The pain was eternal, no beginning to it, no end. We were just... part of it. Forever. And I still ask myself, now, what really happened. Did we give in? I don’t know. Typhus tells us we overcame it, and in taking it within ourselves, we transformed it. We no longer feel it. We bring the lesson of that to the universe – accept corruption, let it pass within you, move beyond it. We have been doing it for a very long time. You forget, after a while, that there was another life you had. That is less than a memory now. Less than a shadow. But not quite dead yet. Every time I see one of you, a part of it comes back.’
>
>‘You were made to protect us,’ Dantine says.
>
>**‘They were. Never made for that!’** the crow blurts. **‘They were made. To end the galaxy.’**
>
>‘So what do I see when I look in the mirror?’ Philemon asks, ignoring the daemon. ‘I do not look, so I do not know. Perhaps the sight would pain me. I suspect it would not. You don’t look so good yourself. I suggest you stay away from them too.’
>
>‘Don’t you want, though...’ Dantine ventures, trying one last time, probing at anything that might be a weak point. A part of him just wants to know. ‘A way back?’
>
>Philemon smiles, a gesture that exposes dark-purple gums. ‘There are no ways back,’ he says. ‘That is the only unchangeable fact of the universe. Even the gods do not break that law – tread the path to its end or tread no path at all. There are no resting places. There are no ways back.’
>
>Dantine stares at him, shivering a little. The tone of finality chills him. He would like to imagine that the monster expresses something like remorse in those words, but he cannot detect any. He thinks then that they have indeed been driven mad, and that they now no longer see the world as it is, but as some kind of impenetrable mental prison. They imagine themselves masters of their fate but are instead puppets of a greater power, mouthing religious words that mean nothing and worshipping a deity that, if it even exists at all, can care nothing for them or any sentient thing, for it is just a consumer of these souls, an engine for which the living are merely fuel.
>
>But then there are many in the universe of whom such things could be said. Perhaps the souls they toy with are indeed the only currency there is, and all players, whatever allegiance they claim, accept the same stakes at the same table.
>
>So does the heretical thought slip in for the first time, like a sigh of hearthwarm air over an open threshold.
>
>He looks up at the Tallyman’s ruined face.
>
>‘They’ll kill you,’ he says. ‘The Emperor’s Angels. They’ll kill you all.’
>
>‘They might,’ says Philemon. ‘But then, as you’re discovering yourself, there are worse things than an honest death. So we’ll see. We’ll see it all, in the end.’
Doesn’t sound like a loving grandfather to me.
There is no doubt that Nurgle loves his followers, but that does not mean that the result isn't horrifying to the uninitiated.
Here above we see Dantine, a relatively normal person, experience the horrors of Nurgle first hand and his lack of understanding is evident. We see throughout the novel the complexities of the changes "Nurgle's love" brought on.
>They imagine themselves masters of their fate but are instead puppets of a greater power, mouthing religious words that mean nothing and worshipping a deity that, if it even exists at all, can care nothing for them or any sentient thing, for it is just a consumer of these souls, an engine for which the living are merely fuel.
I don’t think Nurgle loves his children at all, if a sentient storm can even love. His grants his children apathetic powers of denial in the face of his plagues and the pain he inflicts upon them. If you have to be initiated into a cult to understand that endless disease and a horrifying plague ridden existence is a good thing actually, you might have been Stockholm syndromed into a cult.
> if a sentient storm can even love
That's the abstract nature of the Gods. They aren't "people", their love would be widely different and impossible to understand by people that doesn't already has received his "Gifts"
> the pain he inflicts upon them
Pain is Slaanesh. Those that he blesses, are free from all pain, and so can't feel true joy either.
> If you have to be initiated into a cult to understand that endless disease and a horrifying plague ridden existence is a good thing actually, you might have been Stockholm syndromed into a cult.
Then you are already part of that cult:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_microbiota
Of course the cult, the god, and its results are horrific.
That doesn't change the statement in the codex that Nurgle cares about his followers. It's just that what's good and caring to Nurgle is very different from what it is to a sane, rational human, and we would do well to avoid that care at all costs.
The wholesome Nurgle thing is from old lore, back when GW framed the chaos gods has have more of a sense of duality. Nurgle was the god of decay and death, but also new life and life's desire to give meaning to itself. Just like how Khorne used to have rules about who is champions were allowed to kill (like predator). As the setting wore on GW dropped that framing for the chaos gods and the became pretty much pure evil. Small bits remain like nurgle's followers being "happy" or Khorne not allowing magic.
People really just throw out Lords of Silence for anything. It never even mentioned Nurgle by name, or makes any explicit reference to him, you only see his influence, which is literally just crippling depression
It's not about nurgle, since none of the gods really appear in any book, instead we see how the folloers of the gods act, and indirectly how their gifts are appreciated.
Chaos has some of the most consistent lore of all, there’s been almost no major changes since Realm of Chaos, hell most of their entries are paraphrased from it
That “old lore” never existed, there was never a duality. Khorne was always absolute mindless bloodshed, Nurgle was always a sadistic glutton of despair
Remember, Grandfather Nurgle loves all his children.
Also remember, there are more bacterial cells in your body than people cells so the math doesn't math in your favor.
Does a virus love its host body? No.
Nurgle deadens his followers' ability to suffer like the Toxoplasma transmitted by cats deadens the ability to fear in the cat's prey. It's not compassion, it is what gets the job done.
He's "wholesome" in that he accepts all people, he's not actively going out murdering in the manner of Khorne.
However "the majority of my followers are people I infected and promised to aid and that aid was just making them enjoy plague instead of curing them" is only wholesome if you don't actually understand wholesome.
I think you need to consider who is going to take up worship of Nurgle - people with terminal sicknesses or without any hope in the world.
Now, if given the choice of live and keep suffering forever with your sickness, or live with your sickness without feeling the pain of that sickness, which one would you take?
He's definitely not "benevolent", more like opportunistic. But he does have some upsides.
Life in WH40K is incredibly grim, so much so that taking up worship of a plague god is not actually as horrible as it would be in other universes.
Here’s the thing with chaos…they warp the mind into thinking what they’re being offered is a true gift m. Perfect example is Flight of Eisenstein. We go into the mind of a marine afflicted with incurable diseases as he struggles between life and death. In those mental throes he is presented with the gift of life and all that jazz which he takes. He then turns into a DG as we know them - if not more closer to a chosen of chaos. But by that point his mind has been warped and he feels the powers granted to him are a gift. The DG so afflicted in this book make great note to indicated the power and ability that comes with the blessing.
Slaanesh, for instance, is shown as a slow warping of the mind. In Fulgrim we witness the taste of art (of all forms) shift and change from traditional to the vulgarities associated with slaanesh. And the entire time next to no one is any the wiser as the corruption is that slow and pervasive.
That’s the thing with chaos. They slowly manipulate the target’s mind to win them over so that by the time the corruption is fully set the individuals truly do view their gifts as that.
He is as bad as the other three. People make memes about him being nice because he claims to love everyone. In truth, the plague is a narcissist who wants to impose his will on everyone else.
He doesn’t care that nobody wants his gifts, he forces them to like him because they would never accept his gifts otherwise.
On top of that, he’s a big hypocrite. Nurgle talk about accepting the natural cycle of death rot and renewal. Accept the way he invades the material universe is violating the natural cycles and creates perpetual rot. Or he just destroys everything. All while making select few servants who please him immortal. So apparently his talk of accepting the cycle of death, rot and renewal only applies to mortals.
People throw accusations of communism at the Tau but if you want to criticize someone for preaching about a system while they reap all the rewards and force everyone else to make the sacrifices, throw those accusations at Nurgle.
The good guy vibe is way overstated due to memes and nurgle fans actually believing it to be the case.
Especially for mortals its just not a good time, but thats chaos in a nutshell. You gain great power but suffer the consequences.
HOWEVER i will say, nurgle daemons do posses a lot of joy and great unclean ones as a whole do genuinely care about nurglings and vice versa for example.
The sloppity bilepiper is an undeniable fact that although it gets memed it is based on fact and canon. Nevermind the nurglings having the time of their of life...you just gotta keep in mind that what they do with joy is make other beings suffer.
From a nurgle daemons players perspective, yes! Theres joy in the plague gods service and everyone should be happy to enjoy the gifts of nurgle, as they show his love and appreciation to his children.
To anyone else...hes a chaos god. And he'll make you suffer, possibly worse or on par of the level that slaanesh will torture you.
Warhammer 40k is all about perspective, no one is the good guy. Hell a lot of the factions arent even grey. And its easy to lose yourself in the perspective of the army that you love, but you have to keep other perspectives in mind to get the whole picture of what your army actually entails.
Sorry for the long message, just get really stoked about nurgle haha
Lords of silence. You should listen to/read it. A main character was forced into nurgle servitude. It was incredibly horrific watching him resist and then to realize he’s stuck forever and the only “help” he could receive is actual death. You really feel his fight and eventual defeat like the worst kidnap victim.
Overall his story was an amazing listen but when taking a step back you really see how horrific his prospects for “life” became when captured.
It's Stockholm Syndrome personified. You read about the victims, they are in constant pain and discomfort. Many are dying from whatever maladies Papa Nurgle has bequeathed on them.
In Chapter 3 of ***Dark Imperium: Godblight***, we learn of two of Nurgle's followers. They are physically ravaged and have to scrounge for survival among the bones of the prior inhabitants. The two (Cherala and Odifus) are about 12 years old and expect to die at 24. Neither have any knowledge of their past. They are fearful to speak out against Nurgle's gifts on their bodies because Nurgle may inflict even more pain on them.
In one of the Horus Heresy books, Mortarion quietly admits to Magnus that he hates what Nurgle has done to him.
Nurgle loves his followers he just is that toxic person who, when he shows it, makes everything worse.
I think of him like a doting father who gives out heroin that rots the body because its how he shows love. His followers are addicts who can't feel the pain (because heroin). Meanwhile, they are slowly becoming numb to everything, decaying. He spreads his gifts around freely, drawing you in with a taste, then next thing you know you haven't showered for months, your teeth are rotten and you live in a den with other addicts. Doing little tasks for daddy, just to get a taste.
He's not a bad guy at heart, but he'll fuck up your life faster than you'd imagine.
Nurgle its a neckbeard.
All its just an act, he brainwashes his victims and they believe theyre happy.
Its similar to cult leaders or incels that pretend to be good people to get laid.
It depends on what era of lore you're approaching from. The chaos that's around in modern 40k has been dumbed down in the extreme and lost a lot of it's nuance, they are all bad all the time. Didn't used to be so, which makes everyone moaning about "learning lore from memes" kind of hilarious.
The way the Siege of Terra describes the Death Guard perspective is very much reminiscent of a person who is being kept high on far too many painkillers.
They feel no pain, and they start thinking and moving slower, their senses dulled. One of them straight up says he thinks theye all gotten dumber since Nurgle took hold.
They see a little daemonic Nurgling burrow out of the chest of an enemy, and instead of seeing how wrong or disgusting it is, they start giggling uncontrollably when it farts.
They might be having a good time because of how corrupted their minds are, but that's also true of Slaanesh devotees who crave the extreme sensations and pleasures of their worship, or Khorne Berserkers who experience pleasure whenever blood is spilled.
Even Tzeentch worshippers probably believe that they and they alone are brilliant enough to have figured out how to take advantage of His power without any downsides right up until they inevitably screw up and get turned into a mindless twisted blob of flesh and limbs.
Nurgle does kill his human followers rather quickly. Basically, you get perhaps 30 years old, then you die. All those illnesses kill you, and before you die, you are in pain and you suffer. Nurgle is no good. Not for humans.
Now, it is different for Space Marines. Nurgle seems to like Space Marines. As a Marine, usually do do not die, you become immortal. You also do not feel pain. And you do not succumb to your illness, you get stronger through them. There are quite a lot of Plaguemarines who are quite happy.
There are also a lot of Noisemarines who are happy. Generally, if you want to feel content, be a Spacemarine, and go with Slaneesh or Nurgle. that is your best bet. Everybody else should stay da fuck away from Nurgle.
> All those illnesses kill you, and before you die, you are in pain and you suffer. Nurgle is no good.
Chill with the memes...
While followers of Nurgle do get a bunch of diseases as "Gifts", they won't normally harm the carrier.
It's like your gut-bacteria won't normally harm you either.
No, The illnesses do hurt them, and they usually die very young. This is stated quite clearly in Dark Imperium, Godblight, when we get the POV from the Plague planet.
**‘There were cities here, once,’ said Cherala. She coughed, and spat out a gob of phlegm. Her hip was hurting again, and her foot dragged. Another dubious gift from the jolly Grandfather.**
**‘Shut up, Cherala. There never were.’ Odifus had a honking voice, a legacy of the ear-worms that had got into his head when he was a babe. He could barely hear still over their trilling, and shouted all the while.**
Cherala cringed. Odifus’ shout stirred up clouds of bile flies from the mounds. Giant fungi quivered and turned squelching on their stalks to watch them pass.
**‘There were! Grandpa said,’ said Cherala. She pushed greasy hair out of her good eye. The other was half closed by throbbing growths.** **The witch kin in the village said the tumours might go, they might not; it depended how hard she prayed, to her other grandfather, the fat one, merry lord, Nurgle-in-the-mist.** ‘There was a city right here, in the Stink Forest.’
‘Rubbish!’ boomed Odifus. ‘No cities on Noxia. None at all.’ The pair of them had only the faintest conception of what a city was, but they knew there were lots of people in them. ‘Stupid, cramming together like that. Fastest way for pox to spread.’
Pox: they used it as shorthand for everything, whatever sickness, disease or malady, though when it came to proper description, when it mattered, they had myriad words, one for each of Grandfather’s gifts.
‘It’s true,’ Cherala said. Odifus’ dismissal of her tale annoyed her, and she fought back for once. She pointed up to the towering toad-trees, a thousand mottled slime caps growing on every one. ‘These was buildings, big as the sky, and this…’ She pointed at the squelching mosses they walked upon. ‘This was roads, all hard.’
‘First things, this is moss. Second things, roads is mud and muck,’ said Odifus. ‘This is a forest, always been a forest. Trees and slime and flies. No buildings, nothing *hard.*’
‘Yeah, that so?’ Cherala grumbled quietly, but Odifus heard her fine for once.
‘That’s so,’ said Odifus.
They came to the edge of the scrounging grounds. Beneath the profusion of creepers and trees, square, regular oblongs could be made out, stacked in places five high. Their rusted doors hung half open, showing foetid darknesses within. From a distance, they looked like blocky boulders, and a little kidling might take them for such, **but Cherala was twelve years old, halfway through her life, and wise as they come.** The blocks were metal, rotted through for the most part, and in places sunk half into the swamp, but when her grandpa – her human grandpa, that is – told the tale of the city that was, she believed, because she had seen the boxes.
‘Then what are these then?’ she said.
‘God boxes,’ shouted Odifus. ‘Gifts from Grandfather’s pantries in his Black Manse. Way, way up in the garden.’
Odifus turned back to look at her. His face was swollen with a goitre, so that it was stretched, and his jowls hung upon his chest. Sweat stained his mouldering clothes. **He looked as old as fifty, though he was only Cherala’s age.**
Nurgle is like a sex traffiker who pumps people full of drugs and plays mind games making them unable to realize that they're being whored out and their bodies used to enrich him. They think "Daddy" loves them because they're so high that they dont notice whats being done to them, and he's manipulated them into believing all the horrible things they do to themselves is actually for their benefit.
It's the worse form of toxic relationship, no pun intended.
Definitely Stockholm Syndrome. He'll break your mind and burn it away with horrible pain and corrupt your body with awful plagues, to the point where your mind breaks and your body just *stops feeling pain* to have you call him "Grandfather". His jolliness is genuine but also kind of a facade, I'd say.
It's both. Nurgle really does love his followers but the way a Chaos god feels or expresses love is different from how a human does. And for Nurgle, his love is convoluted with his ambitions to spread his gifts to all.
Does he love Isha? He loves having a permanent guest that he can talk to, will never die, helps him make new diseases, and will never leave. Doesn't matter to Nurgle is Isha doesn't love him back. In fact I think that's where his caring ends.
He cares and he loves as long as you give yourself to him. So long as you can endure his gifts and spread them to others, Nurgle loves you dearly. And he will make sure you're always looked after alongside other worshippers and his daemons.
As far as his daemons. He loves his daemons. I think he really does. They are a part of him, and they are unquestionably loyal to him. Even his little nurglings love him despite their antics and, for that, he loves them back.
Yeah I think it's hard super Stockholm Syndrome, like part of the sickness he spreads is mental health problems preventing you from realising what is happening to you. So subjectively you may well feel fine. Bit you would never ever ever choose this life in sound mind.
Maybe Nurgle has the slightly unusual property of thinking the lifestyle it offers is genuinely good? I don't think Khorne cares about welfare at all one way or the other, Slaanesh is selfish by nature and encourages a focus on individual excellence and extreme experience even if at the expense of others, and Tzeentch values ambition not necessarily actually succeeding. But I think Nurgle actually takes the madness and decay it brings to be good for everyone. A kinda warped stoicism -- in the end things are definitely going his way, why not give in and practice a kinda radical acceptance?
Not that we should agree with Nurgle!! But I think that, plus the fact that we get Nurgle followers own perspectives within their warped framework, is what leads to people thinking Nurgle is good.
The only people who think Nurgle is wholesome are the brainrotted autistic meme lords who post non-stop about shovel boiz, eldar girlfriends, and various factions being turned into femboys. Oh and MLP versions of their favourite factions, those are also big.
None of the gods are wholesome, they are all fundamentally evil in spite of their better and worse natures.
Part of nurgles better nature is kind of the only god who recognizes the kind of grim darkness of the universe. There's like nothing but endless war, strife, and suffering and he genuinely doesnt seem to think this is good for anyone. His solution to this problem is nihilistic, to kill every living thing in the galaxy, if not universe, to end the pain and suffering. Its part of his better nature, like he definitely sees suffering and recognizes it to be a bad thing, but on the other hand his goal of killing everything is not really the solution anyone suffering really wants and even worse the way he kills people employs untold suffering. I beleive his justification is no matter how long it takes, several hundred million years, billions of years, it doesnt matter how much siffering he makes or how long it takes, if he is successful eventually the time of peace will last vastly longer than the time of suffering (ie. If it takes him 100B years to kill all life in the universe, in 10^50 years 100B is like the blink of an eye. 100B vs 9.999...^50 is basically a peaceful and harmonious universe). Its not wholesome, its more pragmatic than anything else.
The thing is, nurgles sort of impression of time is kind of womething his followers can kind of lose faith in. Mortarian agrees with nurgles desire for peace and harmony and even makes the leap of ending all life to achieve it, but after 10k years with basically no move on that particular needle mortarian finds himself frustrated with nurgles passive long game plan. Mortarian kind of just sees himself only causing more of the misery he always hated.
Incidentally here is a cool video on [Deep Time](https://youtu.be/jDF-N3A60DE?si=KTr8rnkfFIThCJ5A). This is why some people say nurgle is more of a god of entropy than a god of death
Edit: speaking of grim dark, the video is just a good rewatch. This aint no fictional grim darkness of the future, this is the grim darkness of the future where black holes and sub atomic particles degenerate and the cosmis horizon shrinks to the size of a sub atomic particle.
All the chaos gods, daemons and warp entities are so completely different inherently from humans that their morality doesn't make sense at all to humans. Its like how we humans care for plant and animal life. We have no problem culling of entire populations of plants and animals to stop the spread of a disease - but no one ould even suggest that if it as humans that were infected.
Not to say he is not wholesome but yeah he is Stockholm syndrome personified but you cant really blame him his mind works differently from a humans he understands things very differently than a human might not to mention how he perceives time
Forced Stockholm syndrome. He'll infect you with an incurable super virus, making you feel the most pain you'll ever feel and attempt to make you utterly hopeless. He'll fool you into thinking he can save you from the disease ravaging your body, and if you accept his help, he'll fully corrupt you, making you his pawn and "saving" you from the very disease he infected you with.
I saw something recently about how the whole idea of Stockholm syndrome is based on some truly shoddy work and the assumption that empathizing with the hostage takers was some sort of psychological disorder.
To put it in 40K terms, Stockholm syndrome is how in Inquisition would explain Tau sympathizers… if they had to explain anything at all, ever. They wouldn’t interview the sympathizers, they would just assume they were deviant and construct the theory of the case accordingly. Your request for an explanation has been noted, please report to your local commissar for an… explanation.
Dammit imma have to find that article.
No. The presence of a Blank or some similar psychic disruption makes the Death Guard scream in absolute terror at what's happened to them.
Part of following Nurgle is an imposed "I'm ok with this". The "I'm ok with this" can wear off
Sources: The Dark Imperium Trilogy, The End and the Death Part 3
Nurgle is called grandfather for a reason.
He does care.
Khorne doesn't want the weak or the crippled. Nurgle does
Slaanesh doesn't want those who have no desire for ecess. Nurgle does.
Tzeentch doesn't want those without guile or desires for power. Nurgle does.
Nurgle takes the destitute, the sick, the miserable, the downtrodden. He welcomes those who are outcast from society.
And that is the great peril of nurgle. Nurgle understands you will achieve much with a kind word. So he says "cone to me, revive my blessing and you will no longer feel ill from sickness, you will have strength and durability, you have companionship even a twisted type of family.
Is he good? Depends on your point of view.
Not really, his followers are continually jolly (apparently) this is clear in “heart of decay” however as we can see in “lords of silence” some are indeed jolly (really it’s only the Nurglings) wile everyone else seems incredibly depressed and the followers do acknowledge the gross and twisted ways they’ve been manipulated to feel okay about
Its sad hearing the problems and horrific themes in the setting of lords of silence however it is still badass
I will say each author can have there own take but from GW mainly, we know all nurgle daemons are incredibly jollly and made just like there chaos god counter part so In reality yes he’s a jolly green giant
Butttt, each chaos god immensely twists and bends the will of there followers or those who wanna follow them with heavy manipulation however ones who don’t need persuasion and accept the god and do his bidding or enact plans to further the influence which they’ll be blessed for And even lesser followers will gain blessings throught
Each chaos god is like picking a poison fruit of greatness they all taste good but no matter what you’ll probably die however your a starving child who doesn’t know better, what I mean is each god is good in there own way objectively
The followers who've really drunk the Kool aid are happy and most are just apathetic because that's depression for you.
But the demons are genuinely happy and jolly because they find pleasure in things like studying new bacteria and diseases emerge from the decay of things around them. But that's not exactly wholesome because the things decaying are billions of people etc.
Stockholm syndrome on nitro. The moment his influence is interrupted and reality hits every space marine and cultist wants to commit suicide
That one scene from Dark Imperium, where that null bomb goes off, and the Death Guard start shrieking as they REALIZE what state they're in? Shooting them was definitely a mercy.
That passage was incredible and one of my favorite parts of the lore The veil being lifted as one sees precisely how damned they are, it’s like a horror movie death. Like just imagine realizing that the sentient, constantly vomiting mouth that used to be your belly *doesn’t actually belong there*
I honestly don't like it. In most Death Guard books, the plague marines are shockingly cognizant of what they are- in things like Lords of Silence, they even get a philosophy which they are allowed to justify. I think this takes agency away from that in a way that's boring, and reduces an interesting reflection on the cycle of death and life and rebirth and love and despair and pain and numbness down to "they have Pyro from TF2 vision lol", and yet it's been embraced by the fans so hard to the point where it's all anyone ever talks about when they bring up plague marines...
Totally disagree! I didn’t feel like it was Pyro vision, more so I felt like a plague marine’s acceptance of such gifts still hinges on the god’s constant attention, which I thought was beautiful when you consider how it was seen in Dark Imperium vs Lords of Silence (personally I think they compliment each other well). Those gifts / mutations may be a sincere reflection of life, decay and all that Nurgle encompasses, but they mean absolutely nothing when he isn’t there to give them meaning. Now it’s just a disease, it’s just literal (now dead) flies in your intestines, it’s just an empty fanged mouth on your body, and your organs don’t work because they’ve long been replaced. Also I was just happy to see plague marines in agony, I mean look at my flair, I’m a bit biased :p
That's fair in a way - I suppose when separated from all the symbolism and they have, Nurgle's plagues just kind of kill you horribly - but it still feels odd to me that the followers themselves would be horrified by specifically *what they have become*, or at least that most of them would - in pain for the first time in a long time, yes - but Nurgle's philosophy is, at its core, about the apathetic acceptance of death and life. It feels weird that people dedicated to a philosophy about accepting misery and death as inevitable parts of existence would just immediately turn heel and completely reverse their entire belief system upon actually being confronted with misery and death. Though, I suppose there is room for other perspectives, certainly. Not to get too deep into the weeds of mental health here, but even in my actual, *real* life I've occasionally had sobering, *terrifying* moments where I've thought "Oh my god, look at me, this is my life... *for until I die...* What even am I anymore?", and I could imagine moments like that being even more painful for someone who is literally rotting from the inside. We're dealing with pretty complex mixes of emotions and ideas here... I just like it when chaos followers wax poetic about stuff and aren't just dumb caricatures for loyalists to beat up, idk.
Thing is without the chaos gods, how many humans/marines would be able to reach and/or sustain that level of extreme mentality?
I think a philosophical acceptance becomes harder when you feel centipedes wriggling through your veins. Nurgles gifts include the ability to endure such circumstances, which lends to their philosophy. Without the ability to endure such circumstances, you would be less circumspect about them
Nurgle doesn't preach apathetic acceptance of death. Read the initial Realm of Chaos books. Nurgle shtick is that humanity denial of death and decay, then the utter despair when that fails is what feeds him . All the energy and effort you put in to keep healthier, more youthful looking ... Then the despair when that fails is what empowers him . So my take on this is that the Death Guard apathy is because Nurgle has literally fed all the despair out from them. And when that was cut off, they began feeling it again. Because never forget. The idea that this is Nurgle gift to you, a mutation.... In and as of itself is a lie that Nurgle feeds on. Citation Realm of Chaos , the lost and the Damned Nurgle is the Great Lord of Decay. He is also the Lord of All, because all things, no matter how solid and permanent they seem, are liable to physical corruption. Indeed, the very processes of construction and creation foreshadow destruction and decay. The palace of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation stone of everlasting regret. What is the response of living men to this undeniable and inevitable futility of life? Is it to lie down and accept death and the coming to nought of every endeavour! No it is not! Faced with the inevitability of death what answer can there be but to run through life at a breakneck pace, cramming each day with hope, laughter, noise and bustle? Thus, happiness and human endeavour are sired by a coming to terms with decay and futility. This realisation is the key to understanding the Great Lord of Decay and his worshippers. Once we comprehend what it is that the Chaos Power Nurgle embodies, it becomes easier to understand what might otherwise seem a contradictory or even perverse nature. On the one hand he is the Lord of Decay, his body wracked with disease; on the other he is full of unexpected energy and a desire to organise and enlighten. The living know they will die, and many know that they will live with disease or other torment, yet they drive this knowledge into a corner of their minds and keep it pinioned there with all manner of dreams and activity. Nurgle is the embodiment of that knowledge and of the unconscious response to it, of the hidden fear of disease and decay, and of the power of life which that fear generates. Nurgle is the eternal enemy of the Chaos Power Tzeentch. Nurgle and Tzeentch draw their energy from opposing beliefs. Whereas the energy of Tzeentch comes from hope and changing fortune, that of Nurgle comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. The two Great Powers never lose an opportunity to pit their forces against each other. - nurgle energy comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. Once that energy got taken away by the null bomb .........
I think the fact that most of the Death Guard were unwilling recruits is also a factor, sure they can try to justify it post-hoc when the influence of Nurgle has already settled into their bloated flesh. But not one of them wanted it, aside from Typhus and maybe a few others, and being faced with what they've become without the mind altering influence of the Plague God would probably be pretty damn horrifying
What are the Death Guard books you'd recommend to someone who's just getting into the faction?
It's not pyro vision at all and it's been bought up like that in several books. It's like a sort of warp induced sense of normalcy. In one of the Horus Heresy books a Death Guard marine is given a Nurgling and he kind of flip/flops between being disgusted by it and loving it unconditionally for a while before the love overpowers his common sense. He knows that it's a disgusting sack of sentient puss, but Nurgle's spell makes it seem like a normal thing to find it adorable. Plague Marines probably have this weird cognitive dissonance going on at all times where they kind of think "It's not that bad really, I'm a bit changed but not that much" More like a drug addiction than Pyro vision.
I agree, as a death Guard fan, Lords of Silence was a pretty incredible book for us.
I’ve only ever read about a dozen Warhammer books. Is Lords of Silence stand-alone or should I read others first?
Standalone, it mainly focuses on the lords of silence death guard warband
*Laughs at the weakling Death Guard in Word Bearer
Wasn't there a short story about a guardsman who was captured by the Death Guard (or something) and when he tried to escape back to his friends, he eventually learned to his horror that he himself became unrecognizable with pox, mutations, etc? Iirc, the revelation instantly made him insane, so he ended up charging against his friends.
This is broadly what happens to Captain Dantine in *The Lords of Silence*, although it is a bit more complicated than that.
Does anyone know where I can read this passage?
Dark imperium trilogy i think
Sorry, I meant just the passage like what’s usually posted on this sub. Definitely interested in reading the book eventually, but that’s after so many other books!
Sure, but Nurgle does care about them. The care of a chaos god is a terrible thing.
Indeed, Nurgle *loves you*. And you should be *fucking terrified of that*.
Is that when they are cut off from the influence of the Warp and their diseases start immediately consuming their own bodies essentially?
Can you point me in a direction so I may read what you're referring to?
The Dark Imperium novel trilogy follows Guilliman 10 years after his revival from stasis. He's leading the Indomitus Crusade and desperate for a brother to talk to, so naturally Mortarion invades Ultramar. I personally recommend reading (at least a summary of) Rise of the Primarch, and the Watchers of the Throne duology, before Dark Imperium. The first Dawn of Fire novel also helps, but Dark Imperium is fairly readable on its own.
I'm finishing up the hh, so I will add those to the list. Thank you!
What book is this from, exactly? I can't quite remember.
Question, does this apply to Nurgle only, or the entirety of Chaos?
What is that scene from exactly?
I think the best example of the horror of Nurgle I can think of is at the beginning of Warhawk, when several Plague Marines are talking about their new powers and condition, and to summarize it all they could really say is "Well at least I'm not in pain!" And that's kinda all they could feel They were so hyper fixated on the fact that they weren't in pain, and ignoring the fact that they weren't feeling anything else. Towards the end it has some of them heading off towards the Lions gate Spaceport I believe, and again he's basically just saying "but at least I'm not in pain!" As he realizes everything that's happening to his body. I always imagine tears in his eyes
Did they get a space lazer
They had also been waylaid in the warp and tortured with Nurgle's greatest diseases and agonies for an indeterminate amount of time. "At least I'm not in pain," is as much a sentiment about how their circumstances have *improved* as it is a justification of their current condition. You can see how their perception is already twisted by Nurgle the moment they give in to despair and serve him, if it'll just make the pain stop.
You'd be surprised how much "at least I'm not in pain" can be a blessing. If you live in constant pain, for days weeks months, the absence of it is relief beyond compare.
I deal with a lot of pain. Back pain that can debilitate me for days, kidney stones, and another thing that isn't polite to discuss but supposedly hurts as much as childbirth. When the pain has been going on for what feels like forever, despair starts creeping in. When the pain stops suddenly, weeping in relief is not uncommon. And this is all just normal body stuff a huge portion of all humanity has to deal with. It must be so much more intense with deliberately caused pain.
Yeah this is super true. Many even find death preferable to the constant pain
As someone with a condition that regularly puts him in pain but has other effects “at least I’m not in pain” is a surprisingly good reason to accept your current condition.
A fair enough answer, but my point was more they traded bad for worse, just so the bad would stop. Your situation is different To me at least it reads less as relief and more as justification. They basically traded a porn addiction for a heroin addiction
Well that’s the thing. For them it *isnt* worse. Because they don’t feel it. This is the true “corruption of chaos” they everyone always talks about. These gifts are truely gifts and their horror doesn’t matter. Because it’s nurgle that gave them the gifts and nurgle takes the pain away.
their what powers
Exactly!!!! Despair, hopelessness.... Then defiance.... Realms of Chaos: the lost and the Damned. Nurgle is the Great Lord of Decay. He is also the Lord of All, because all things, no matter how solid and permanent they seem, are liable to physical corruption. Indeed, the very processes of construction and creation foreshadow destruction and decay. The palace of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation stone of everlasting regret. What is the response of living men to this undeniable and inevitable futility of life? Is it to lie down and accept death and the coming to nought of every endeavour! No it is not! Faced with the inevitability of death what answer can there be but to run through life at a breakneck pace, cramming each day with hope, laughter, noise and bustle? Thus, happiness and human endeavour are sired by a coming to terms with decay and futility. This realisation is the key to understanding the Great Lord of Decay and his worshippers. Once we comprehend what it is that the Chaos Power Nurgle embodies, it becomes easier to understand what might otherwise seem a contradictory or even perverse nature. On the one hand he is the Lord of Decay, his body wracked with disease; on the other he is full of unexpected energy and a desire to organise and enlighten. The living know they will die, and many know that they will live with disease or other torment, yet they drive this knowledge into a corner of their minds and keep it pinioned there with all manner of dreams and activity. Nurgle is the embodiment of that knowledge and of the unconscious response to it, of the hidden fear of disease and decay, and of the power of life which that fear generates. Nurgle is the eternal enemy of the Chaos Power Tzeentch. Nurgle and Tzeentch draw their energy from opposing beliefs. Whereas the energy of Tzeentch comes from hope and changing fortune, that of Nurgle comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. The two Great Powers never lose an opportunity to pit their forces against each other.
Every single fucking lore statement vs one scene in a book the author said was “good because I don’t really have to put in much effort” Believe it or not the god of resignation who is directly opposed to tzeentch, don’t rely on illusions and delusions, his followers are just genuine nihilists
Yea. The whole "it's all an *illusion* they're actually crazy and think everything's cool and normal until they get hit by a no-warp bomb and they see how *horrifying* they are" bit reduces the agency of Nurgle-aligned characters in a way that changes them from a group with a theoretically really interesting philosophy which directly speaks to the decay and stagnation of the Imperium into just "They just have Pyro from TF2 vision lmao". Nurgle represents death, life, eternity, cycles, entropy, and giving in to the inherent darkness of an uncaring universe- and often his followers justify that philosophy in really interesting ways. Don't get me wrong- it's not necessarily a *good* philosophy- but it is certainly an interesting one from a fictional perspective, and this bit of lore that the fandom seems to love bringing up at every opportunity they can really just makes something theoretically really interesting just feel like a caricature. The idea that they'd all just collapse into a puddle of poo if they ever get severed from the warp because they're sad that they're not pretty anymore instead of holding to a belief system that they've committed themselves to for millennia just feels... idk, not in-character for a group defined entirely by a philosophy of nihilistic apathy. Deception, self-delusion and self-destructive blindness to reality are the domains of Tzeench and Slaanesh. Nurgle is the god of seeing the eternal, grinding wheel of life for exaxtly what it is. Nurgle is entropy laid bare for all to see.
I could see both. There would be true believers that would wax poetic about their condition and argue until the end of all things. There would also be some that got caught up in the delirium and would have their minds shattered if the brain fog was ever to be lifted. It doesn’t cheapen it to have it like that. For every true believer there is a someone else just kinda there. Think of cult members that have had that sudden realization of the state they’re in sometimes and almost lose it. Now have them come out of it with their skin falling off and they can’t scream for the yellowish fluid that’s bubbling out of them. It doesn’t make it more one dimensional to have people react in different ways, it humanizes them.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, and I think you have a very interesting take. I just wanted to argue that yes, Nurgle does represent entropy and the unstoppable, irreversible way of things, that everything will wither and die. But he also wants people to suffer and feel despair. The entropy he presents isn't objective - his followers aren't just infected but also *mutated*, with tentacles, fly hives and phlegmy maws. It's entirely possible to have agency and eke out a philosophy in this IMO, and nihilism isn't a bad take on life when your irreparably diseased. But it's also important to point out that Nurgle craves servitude. His poxwalkers and Plague Bearers don't really represent nihilism in this way, because Nurgle in the end does enforce a purpose - to worship him. The Death Guard are further under Nurgles spell because he makes them inured to the agony they would naturaly feel, to the point they can relish their change. IMO that's not a "real" appreciation of entropy since they don't really suffer the consequences of it. The null shells take that spell away, and the agony becomes real. I can absolutely see Marines dying in horrendous pain and anguish.
It’s 40k. The only choice is to choose your style of Stockholm Syndrome unless you’re a total renegade
What about becoming a space pirate, joining the Tau empire, living with a colony of the Leagues of Votann or just finding then living on a peaceful planet that the Imperium forgot about due to like a bureucrat's clerical error that quietly "seceded" from the Imperium?
T’au are castes and vassals with a “Brahmin” class that seemingly has a form of mind-control due to pheromones or Warp exposure, everything else is quickly stomped by other major factions or xenos like the crazy psyker Cacodominus… along with insane AI systems and such You gotta be ready to die wherever you are as the galaxy is one of the universe’s slum of crimes against reality as far as we know. Everything on the Kardashev Scale would likely lock their doors when driving past the Milky Way
The Tau are all about accepting willingly humans into the Greater Good and have them serve as military auxiliaries and construction workers and farmers and whatnot. So long as a Gue'vesa respects their Tau superiors, does their assigned job decently and doesn't take part in any terrorist insurrections a Gue'vesa gets a pretty good life with good living standards supported by futuristic technology rather then being forced to basically toil away in a Victorian era like hovel. It's like how alot of people living in the Soviet Union had (for the time) fairly decent living standards compared to the international average standard the majority of humanity had to deal with even though it was not a good life by Western European or North American standards and it was basically a dictatorship. Also the Tau are one of the mightiest factions in the setting. Alternatively since it's literally an entire galaxy and galaxies are gigantic it's still likely there are many relatively peaceful isolated corners of the galaxy even if we never hear about them.
In 40k, much like real life, the theme of people having odd and often catastrophic picks for their sacred cow is one that repeats and keeps a detrimental plot thread going How much of it is actually good governance and not an “it’s for your own good” iron fist in a velvet glove?
The Tau are pretty pragmatic though. Like they are almost all atheists but they let their vassal races join whatever religion they want so long as the religion is not anti-Tau or anti-Tau empire in general. Many humans in the Tau empire who still worship the God Emperor of Mankind are allowed to keep officially openly worshipping him with an organised religion with masses every weekend and priests and religious services and everything so long as their denomination of the Imperial Truth does not support speciesism or human supremacy in general. Also the living standards under the Tau controlled worlds are said to be pretty good in general with like well functioning high tech futuristic cities which implies at least like skyscraper apartments, high speed trains for public transit, decent tasty healthy mass produced food, doctor robots, etc. One downside is that the Tau cannot eat meat and presumably want to preserve resources by not raising many animals for meat so almost all the food available within Tau communities is vegetarian. Not that terrible of a downside though all things considered. The Tau are not just being altruistic, they genuinely need more alien military auxiliary troops to help conquer land from and defend against their numerically superior enemies so even if the Tau became like "bah we dislike all humans now" they would not get rid of the humans in their empire or even necessarily threat them any worse since right now they literally always need more people for their factories, farms, armies, etc. Also since the Tau's number one priority is defending the land they already have and they don't use human auxiliaries in military campaigns unless it's physically necessary in order to avoid social friction within the Tau military, even a human soldier who spends his entire working life in the Tau military will in all likelihood just spend his entire working life doing boring yet pleasant enough guard duty at well defended worlds deep within the Tau empire.
Stop listening to memes for lore. Nurgle makes his followers so apathetic to their condition that they think they're blessed and closer to Nurgle. None of the Chaos gods care about their followers, they just utilize different smokescreens to keep them on the path of damnation.
I agree. At best, it's an abusive relationship where the followers are told "if you just work a bit harder, then daddy Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch will notice you". Of course, every now and then someone does receive a blessing, but that's just part of the act so the followers can continue to believe that one day they might be the ones chosen.
From the books I’ve read it also seems that the chaos gods don’t always “choose” who to “bless”. It seems there are also just plenty of powerful people hungry for more, so they commission archaeology and adventures and all sorts of other narratives to steal and capture anything that will give them power. So even the idea of a “blessing” from the chaos gods seems misaligned. Many of these villains-of-the-week are downright stealing power they don’t understand and we’re already corrupt sons of bitches before hand. The agency of the chaos gods doesn’t seem to be a consideration in all the stories….more like chaos is a seductive potent form of hell-meth that many are very willing to try.
That's an interesting way to think about it but I think we get some prominent examples of chaos gods actively blessing their prominent followers. Now these "blessings" are dubious at best. They are almost never just power for the sake of power. There is almost always something taken. The foremost Astartes followers of the big 4 are probably the best examples. Typhus, is "blessed" with the destroyer hive. I can't really find a passage where Typhus describes the blessing as anything but a blessing. He's absolutely enamored with Nurgle and all of his blessings. Now, the core tennents of Nurgle is all about despair and acceptance. There's ample evidence that being the host to the destroyer plague is a miserable experience. Anyone around it describes the buzzing as a drill in your skull. Accepting this miserable existence is like the core of Nurgle. Turn your despair and misery into acceptance. Lucius is way more obvious. He's blessed with raw power and is constantly ressurected. These ressurections come at the price of never being able to best whomever killed him. Slaanesh being Slaanesh, this hit to the ego of Lucius is basically torture. Ahriman has been manipulated by Tzeetch for a while. I'm just beginning my reading into the 1ksons so correct me if I'm wrong. Ahriman, while a psyker, is also a sorcerer. Sorcerers get their power directly from the Chaos gods. Ahrimans price for his sorcery was dooming his brothers with the Rubric and searching for a way to undo it. All the while being deceived and manipulated into doing Tzeetchs will without even actively worshiping them. Pretty juicy. Kharn just strong as fuck boy. He was kind of already experiencing the downsides of Khorne worship before it became official. The nails took care of that. If the nails were all part of Khornes plan, then there's you're downside. Chicken or egg? I don't know enough to say. When examining all of these Astartes champions and their blessings, it is pretty clear they all have a caveat. Further the goals of your God or your powers can always be taken. I think that sums up the idea of "blessings" about as accurately as can be done. Edit:Spelled Slaanesh right. And Tzeentch.
Yeah, but 3 out of those 4 seem to be fine with this. In fact, to an extent that they don't seem to be seeking Princedom, which is very interesting. It's very understandable why Chaos Gods don't want to grant that, but you have to have a special mindset to not chase after the ultimate prize that 99.9% of champions are after. Idk Lucius' deal, and Ahriman is not even a worshipper, but Khârn and Typhus seem to be content doing what they're doing.
Lucius is an avid worshipper to Slaanesh. They *all* enjoy their status, as they all embrace what that status is. Ahriman is just so entranced by blind hope that he deludes himself into imagined freedom, blissfully unaware to even his own mutations. His face is described as a screaming void by someone who claims to have seen it.
This is a very good write-up and all, but I'm begging you for one thing and one thing only. Please, *please,* spell Slaanesh correctly. Tzeentch too.
I hate to admit this, but I spelled it wrong one time and my phones autocorrect always changes it to Slaneesh now. I don't know how to stop it lol. I will edit the post
I forgive you <3 Also, it's really no big deal. Half the joke is how seriously I take it... ^(even though it does secretly bother me a lot when I see it. That's a me-problem, though - not a you-problem.)
I feel you. I shouldn't let autocorrect ruin my posts
Ironic
This has happened to me various times with various words from fandoms. Now, idk what kinda phone/ keyboard setup you got, but when it happens to me (auto-correct 'locking in' incorrect spellings), type the offending word until it populates in the auto fill section, then 'long press' on it. Mine gives me the option to delete the word. Then I can type it correctly and 'save' it. Might work, might not. Worth a shot; you can always just fight auto-correct and take pride in your victory over the machine god when you prevail 👍.
Slaanesh. Tzeentch. Hell yeah. TIL. Ty brother.
You can fix it by hold-pressing the word when the phone suggests it as an autocomplete / autocorrect option, then throw it in the trash.
Another reply helped me out but I appreciate it. Laziness wins far too often in my life.
You know, as someone who never really liked Lucius' whole scthick and the curse, you've actually recontextualised in a way I really enjoy.
> that the chaos gods don’t always “choose” who to “bless”. > Inasmuch as they're sentient beings with the freedom to 'choose' anything (a very debatable idea), they do. Chaos worshippers digging for this or that artifact or this or that forbidden tome to get 'power' are just borrowing from the Warp, which Chaos Gods don't control directly or fully (otherwise neither Imperial psykers nor the Eldar would be able to use psychic powers). The Chaos Gods' "blessings" are genereally either directly giving their followers warplore or mutating their bodies, and they can even theoretically take back those blessings if they choose.
> if you work harder, you'll be noticed my god. they turned working retail into a religion
I always think that this also applies to the emperor too...
So kinda like boomers and the work place
> Stop listening to memes for lore. Please say this louder. I'm of the firm belief that a lot of memes are pure toxicity to lore in games. I've been a Battletech fan for over 30 years, and the things people truly believe there because of memes is absolutely batshit insane compared to the real lore. I like a good joke, but memes just become beaten horses that new fans can't distinguish from facts. It's really tiring.
I'm a bit worried if someone genuinely believes that some pox-ridden, maggot-infested, rotting and pus-filled fellow is deliriously jolly that somehow equate to Nurgle being a good and wholesome sort.
I don't care what anyone says, my bikini clad Canopian catgirl mercenary company is 100% lore accurate!
[See what I mean?](https://gifdb.com/images/high/corey-vidal-shrug-ar27x2c70xx6e78q.gif)
There's a million worlds. Plenty of space for one in a million chances.
Outside of like EmperorTTS I think this subreddit has done far more damage than memes
How so?
I think of it more as literal toxic love. The love is there but it is not healthy or even empathetic.
This. Grandpa Nurgle loves you, *whether you like it or not*. His ideas of gifts and blessings are abhorrent, and his idea of easing your pain and suffering is to just make you apathetic towards it. He's as jolly as Santa, but you'd rather get coal in your stockings instead of whatever Nurgle gives you.
Papa Nurgle loves you so much that he made a new kind of rectal cancer *just for you*. Coal would be better on every imaginable axis.
Exactly that. Nurgle cares about his servants. It just so happens that what he views as good and caring is not that to a sane mortal. He isn't lying or gaslighting them or whatever. As far as he's concerned he's genuinely caring.
Yeah it'a like codependence or narcissistic control.
Nurgle do care about his followers and that's the lore... Though it would be like a Volcano loving a tribe that worships it, so it gives them lots of lava.
It's not even that they utilize smokescreens, it's just that these embodiments of concepts continue to be embodiments of the concepts, and the more trapped by that concept you are, the more you become like it. Khorne is bloodshed, rage, frenetic violence, etc. When you're a Khornie, you do all the same, and this can result in you getting ripped apart into a bloody effigy to khorne. Maybe you're so far gone that you don't care. But probably not, because Khorne cares not, etc. Khorne sees it and goes "HA HA HA, THAT'S COOL!" and keeps right on Khorning as soon as you're no longer actively bleeding and being torn up. A big part of Nurgle is the decay, including the decay of caring about things. There are no real Nurgle Zealots after long enough, because, well, death and rot is inevitable, why try and force it? So while as you approach the pinacle of Khorne-ness you approach a pinacle of suffering, and could potentially suffer more, Nurgle doesn't care about suffering, just entropy. Greater chance to be A-okay with whatever. Chaos gods are like damnation gravity; they just ARE. Pulling you inexorably toward whatever personal direction of Down they represent. Nurgles is just... snottier than the others.
There is lore for nurgle being jolly. His plague beasts (can't remember their actual names) are full of playful energy. They find friends and play with them until they sadly can't move anymore, then find new friends.
Yeah, Beasts of Nurgle essentially have the mindset of a puppy or something along those lines
Okay? Demonettes have fun dancing and painting walls with blood. That's doesn't change what they do. Executioners can enjoy their work, they're still executioners. Enjoying evil doesn't make them good, they just suffer less than their victims which is the MO of all the chaos gods' forces
Yes, but Beasts of Nurgle really dont understand what they are doing (which is quite the cruel fate)
>Demonettes have fun dancing and painting walls with blood. They're entirely self-aware about the horrificness of their actions and thus are actively malicious, the Beasts of Nurgle aren't. Not until they lose one "friend" too many and their joy has been eroded to nothing, replaced with unending hatred for all life that induces a metamorphosis into a Rot Fly, which will then constantly seek to spread suffering to all that it encounters.
It’s a Lenny situation. They aren’t aware of their strength and what they’re capable of
I can agree to this, from what I've read in the heresy + siege. On point.
Tzeentch at least, is honest. He tells you he doesn't care and shows it.
No, the meme lore is that he's just lying to them. People thinking they're being big-brained about chaos despite not having actually bothered to read the main lore about them. The codex lore is very clear that he cares about his servants. But he's a chaos god, his care has terrible results to any sane person. The point is that he cares but no-one should actually want that because of course what seems good and caring to such a god is awful to us.
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No? Nurgle imo is one of the more insidious ones because his influence and plagues can affect far more people on average than any of the other gods. I think he causes the most suffering with the trauma and sickness he spreads. Read the Plague Wars trilogy or at least Dark Imperium, he isn't overt, he slowly chokes civilization.
Yep, there's a real thematic reason why G-man's first real struggle is against the forces of Nurgle, he's symbolically fighting the stagnation and apathy and slow decline that's killing the Imperium.
Dayum well put
I mean, shit, just look at how horrid Uhlren's Pox was.
I wrote a wall of text in a reply only to scroll down and finding out you wrote essentially the same thing but more to the point. Brevity is the soul of wit.
Nurgle cares somewhat about his followers. He’s a jubilous corruptive influence. While he doesn’t have genuine love he does obviously care about his creations and nurglings and all that
As much as Slanesh is the “drugs and rock and roll god” , I view Nurgle as a parallel to Opiate addiction. Followers may be super content in there day to day, moment to moment existence. Completely unfazed as their life crumbles around them. Nothing could hurt them emotionally or physically. It feels good, takes away all the pain of living in this shit hole of a galaxy. You could call it happiness, euphoria even. But overtime they waste away, get sores growing all over their body, veins shot. They might start to notice it early and think about turning back. But if they do they’ll feel even more sick without it. They watch it destroy them, but if they stop now they’ll feel the pain of what they become set in. Best to stay in the warmth, the love of their “happy place” for another day. Until their corruption/addiction leaves nothing left…
Ouch this hit heavy bro thanks for sharing
as a stoner burnout only reason i haven't gotten a Nurgle tattoo is because is because it would feel more symbolic than I care to think about.
>Completely unfazed as their life crumbles around them. Nothing could hurt them emotionally or physically. Sounds like when I was depressed
Nurgle is a CG representing depression, self-loathing, despair, sadness and apathy among other things. Of course he's totally wholesome, lol!
The really important aspect of all of this that people often forget which you highlight is that each aspect highlighted above could manifest in a variety of different ways. 40k tends to highlight the varieties that get models whilst the lore emphasises the sheer variety of chaos.
No It's part of the horror factor as most nurgle daemons are very joyful and skip around etc just think of nurglings. A lot of plague marines are pretty content and have a "uh whatever attitude". It's very disturbing to read However nurgles gifts are like, extra bone, rotting from the inside, having giant flies burst out your skin, becoming a plague bearer which is its own brand or torment etc
Well said. It’s that dichotomy that makes Nurgle interesting. They’re surrounded by rot and decay but also cheerful and playful
It's also deeply unsettling
It's basically Resident Evil 7: Biohazard. Miranda is a Nurgle cultist and she's trying to use nurgles gifts to accomplish her goals.
Except for Ku'gath, of course. It's weird seeing a Great Unclean One in such a miserable state. Not that I have much sympathy for him, mind you, but still.
Ku'gath is pretty much an incarnation of self-loathing as an aspect of despair, the same way Skarbrand is a manifestation of the self-destructive nature and mindlessness of anger.
Have you seen the stop motion movie Coraline? He’s like the Other-Mother it’s a love but love like one loves a doll or possession, not true love for a child Nurgle thinks he loves his children but he can never know what love is and a child under abuse will never know the difference and therefore shall go on to show ‘love’ to others just as the followers of Nurgle spread his love (Plagues)
Yes it’s a abusive cult leader kind of love. Nurgle is like a domestic abuser and represents toxic relationships. I heard many people saying how Nurgle does or does not “love” his followers and i think it’s a oversimplification. Nurgle in the lore always seemed like Mother Gothel from Tangled (that’s a weird comparison to make) where Gothel repeatedly gaslights Rapunzal and traps her for access to her hair. Nurgle does the same thing to his followers giving them “love” so they stay host to his real children of microorganisms. it reminds me of IRL cults who prey on peoples yearning for community and who “Lovebomb” people with gifts and praise so they join and stay in the cult.
He isn't. The lore says he cares about his servants. He isn't gaslighting them. He is, however, a chaos god, whose view of what is good is, of course, very very different from ours, and should be avoided at all costs.
There is nobody wholesome in this setting.
I like to imagine there are still happy/peaceful star systems without Mandeville points, so nobody will ever likely bother them. Except for nosey Necrons, maybe. Maybe humans live there, colonized millennia ago by sleeper or generation colony ships. Or maybe they're occupied by alien species no one will ever discover.
i think it's ment to be relative to the other Gods. While everything in the setting is grimdark, there is nuance in all things.
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Eh, but there are. For all the talk GW says of “everyone is bad!!” They pretty frequently let characters who act like genuinely good people through the cracks. It’s just not really talked about.
to me it seems like there can be individuals or small groups who are good but all of the actual factions taken as a whole are some flavor of evil.
> It’s just not really talked about. Feel the moral lamentation is basically every week on this subreddit, so I don't think that's true. And I doubt GW has at any point said "There exist no person that is good, everyone is bad and we portray them as bad-guys." -- though there are authors who portray a more noblebright version of a protagonist than you'd expect out of this horrid galaxy. I just don't see it as a much of an endemic problem as people sometimes make it out to be. You can make novels and characters who act intrinsically "good" in the most brutal regime imaginable without it is meant to validate said brutal regime.
I think Dr Dordan is pretty wholesome.
Wholesome Nurgle is one of the worst memes to ever come out of this fandom. He’s the literal chaos god of despair and apathy. He mindfucks his followers into being happy by making them incapable of hoping for anything better than what he makes them suffer
You have to ask if a god who turns you into human slop is nice?
Nurgle is the personification of "misery loves company". His followers spreading worship is more akin to miserable people dragging you down with them.
Hell no, and his daemons aren’t nice cuddly creatures that want to play either. Nurgle is closer to your abusive creepy uncle who enables your worst thoughts. His “love” is domestic abuse if you consider his followers “his family”.
Beasts of Nurgle are. But they can't avoid killing you by trying to play with you. They try to play with you, then get disappointed when you stop moving.
He's personification of depression. He's anything but wholesome.
The fact that some of nurgles followers ACT wholesome while doing the most hideous and disgusting things makes it even more terrible and disturbing. His followers can't feel pain (because that's Slaanesh) but having them smile with their guts hanging out makes it worse. They're like Juju zombies.
Basically both. Without any direct contact from Nurgle cultists, people who're suffering from Disease and desperately seek respite will start off wanting to get better, then they hope not to get worse, until eventually a name rise to their minds "Nurgle." and they start to feel better even though their condition hasn't improved. Nurgle is the warp equivalent of growing addicted to painkillers. The addict who slams their hand in a car door in order to get a prescription. Nurgle's love is as pure as love gets in 40k, and you're willing to do whatever they want to feel it.
The fact that some people genuinely think that Nurgle is a "wholesome good guy" chaos god is very concerning.
Here is a great write up about Nurgle: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/wkqdwu/an_exploration_of_grandfather_nurgle_the_most/ But to answer your question, he does genuinely love his followers, but he is a chaos god and his concept of "love" is very different from mortals. Imagine being loved by the continuous cycle of life and death, It's all very abstract.
>Dantine glances about him. He sees complex calculations traced in brown ink on thick parchment. He sees rusty devices – armillary spheres, sextants, chronometers – half-covered in mildew-spotted cloth. > >‘You call us ignorant,’ he says, trying to sound defiant. ‘And yet, look at you. Look at the conditions you live in. Do you not disgust yourself when you pass a mirror? Do you not see what you could have been?’ > >The crow laughs. Dantine tenses, ready for a blow from the armoured monster, but it never comes. > >Philemon looks thoughtful. ‘But I was in the warp,’ he says. ‘When we were becalmed. I still remember. I scratched the days on my armour, one after the other.’ > >Dantine listens. He doesn’t know what the monster is talking about, but says nothing. The crow listens. The Little Lords still their quarrelling, and they listen too. > >‘When the Destroyer came, I resisted it. We all did. We had been trained for it and we had resisted everything, up until then. Defiance, or else death. Every Legion taught that to some degree, and we taught it more than most. I thought there was nothing I could not endure that did not kill me.’ > >The Tallyman is not focusing now. He is witnessing events far away. > >‘But we were out of time, in the end. There were no days to mark anymore. The pain was eternal, no beginning to it, no end. We were just... part of it. Forever. And I still ask myself, now, what really happened. Did we give in? I don’t know. Typhus tells us we overcame it, and in taking it within ourselves, we transformed it. We no longer feel it. We bring the lesson of that to the universe – accept corruption, let it pass within you, move beyond it. We have been doing it for a very long time. You forget, after a while, that there was another life you had. That is less than a memory now. Less than a shadow. But not quite dead yet. Every time I see one of you, a part of it comes back.’ > >‘You were made to protect us,’ Dantine says. > >**‘They were. Never made for that!’** the crow blurts. **‘They were made. To end the galaxy.’** > >‘So what do I see when I look in the mirror?’ Philemon asks, ignoring the daemon. ‘I do not look, so I do not know. Perhaps the sight would pain me. I suspect it would not. You don’t look so good yourself. I suggest you stay away from them too.’ > >‘Don’t you want, though...’ Dantine ventures, trying one last time, probing at anything that might be a weak point. A part of him just wants to know. ‘A way back?’ > >Philemon smiles, a gesture that exposes dark-purple gums. ‘There are no ways back,’ he says. ‘That is the only unchangeable fact of the universe. Even the gods do not break that law – tread the path to its end or tread no path at all. There are no resting places. There are no ways back.’ > >Dantine stares at him, shivering a little. The tone of finality chills him. He would like to imagine that the monster expresses something like remorse in those words, but he cannot detect any. He thinks then that they have indeed been driven mad, and that they now no longer see the world as it is, but as some kind of impenetrable mental prison. They imagine themselves masters of their fate but are instead puppets of a greater power, mouthing religious words that mean nothing and worshipping a deity that, if it even exists at all, can care nothing for them or any sentient thing, for it is just a consumer of these souls, an engine for which the living are merely fuel. > >But then there are many in the universe of whom such things could be said. Perhaps the souls they toy with are indeed the only currency there is, and all players, whatever allegiance they claim, accept the same stakes at the same table. > >So does the heretical thought slip in for the first time, like a sigh of hearthwarm air over an open threshold. > >He looks up at the Tallyman’s ruined face. > >‘They’ll kill you,’ he says. ‘The Emperor’s Angels. They’ll kill you all.’ > >‘They might,’ says Philemon. ‘But then, as you’re discovering yourself, there are worse things than an honest death. So we’ll see. We’ll see it all, in the end.’ Doesn’t sound like a loving grandfather to me.
There is no doubt that Nurgle loves his followers, but that does not mean that the result isn't horrifying to the uninitiated. Here above we see Dantine, a relatively normal person, experience the horrors of Nurgle first hand and his lack of understanding is evident. We see throughout the novel the complexities of the changes "Nurgle's love" brought on.
>They imagine themselves masters of their fate but are instead puppets of a greater power, mouthing religious words that mean nothing and worshipping a deity that, if it even exists at all, can care nothing for them or any sentient thing, for it is just a consumer of these souls, an engine for which the living are merely fuel. I don’t think Nurgle loves his children at all, if a sentient storm can even love. His grants his children apathetic powers of denial in the face of his plagues and the pain he inflicts upon them. If you have to be initiated into a cult to understand that endless disease and a horrifying plague ridden existence is a good thing actually, you might have been Stockholm syndromed into a cult.
> if a sentient storm can even love That's the abstract nature of the Gods. They aren't "people", their love would be widely different and impossible to understand by people that doesn't already has received his "Gifts" > the pain he inflicts upon them Pain is Slaanesh. Those that he blesses, are free from all pain, and so can't feel true joy either. > If you have to be initiated into a cult to understand that endless disease and a horrifying plague ridden existence is a good thing actually, you might have been Stockholm syndromed into a cult. Then you are already part of that cult: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_microbiota
Of course the cult, the god, and its results are horrific. That doesn't change the statement in the codex that Nurgle cares about his followers. It's just that what's good and caring to Nurgle is very different from what it is to a sane, rational human, and we would do well to avoid that care at all costs.
Of course he is not, none of the Chaos gods are wholesome or good He is “nicer” than the others but he is still a evil monster
The wholesome Nurgle thing is from old lore, back when GW framed the chaos gods has have more of a sense of duality. Nurgle was the god of decay and death, but also new life and life's desire to give meaning to itself. Just like how Khorne used to have rules about who is champions were allowed to kill (like predator). As the setting wore on GW dropped that framing for the chaos gods and the became pretty much pure evil. Small bits remain like nurgle's followers being "happy" or Khorne not allowing magic.
That isn't 'old lore'. That's exactly how the recent codices describe Nurgle too.
This seems more interesting to me. I wonder why they changed it.
They didn't. I don't know why they're calling it 'old lore', it's right there in the recent chaos daemons codices too.
Maybe they mean old as in "it was used to be mentioned more"
I mean the "Nurgle loves you" is reinforced both in the Bile Trilogy and Lords of Silence, both i would consider recent enough additions enough
People really just throw out Lords of Silence for anything. It never even mentioned Nurgle by name, or makes any explicit reference to him, you only see his influence, which is literally just crippling depression
It's not about nurgle, since none of the gods really appear in any book, instead we see how the folloers of the gods act, and indirectly how their gifts are appreciated.
Chaos has some of the most consistent lore of all, there’s been almost no major changes since Realm of Chaos, hell most of their entries are paraphrased from it That “old lore” never existed, there was never a duality. Khorne was always absolute mindless bloodshed, Nurgle was always a sadistic glutton of despair
Neither. As God of Despair, Nurgles domain includes (but is not limited to) the fake happiness of the suicidally depressed.
Remember, Grandfather Nurgle loves all his children. Also remember, there are more bacterial cells in your body than people cells so the math doesn't math in your favor.
Does a virus love its host body? No. Nurgle deadens his followers' ability to suffer like the Toxoplasma transmitted by cats deadens the ability to fear in the cat's prey. It's not compassion, it is what gets the job done.
He's "wholesome" in that he accepts all people, he's not actively going out murdering in the manner of Khorne. However "the majority of my followers are people I infected and promised to aid and that aid was just making them enjoy plague instead of curing them" is only wholesome if you don't actually understand wholesome.
I think you need to consider who is going to take up worship of Nurgle - people with terminal sicknesses or without any hope in the world. Now, if given the choice of live and keep suffering forever with your sickness, or live with your sickness without feeling the pain of that sickness, which one would you take? He's definitely not "benevolent", more like opportunistic. But he does have some upsides. Life in WH40K is incredibly grim, so much so that taking up worship of a plague god is not actually as horrible as it would be in other universes.
Here’s the thing with chaos…they warp the mind into thinking what they’re being offered is a true gift m. Perfect example is Flight of Eisenstein. We go into the mind of a marine afflicted with incurable diseases as he struggles between life and death. In those mental throes he is presented with the gift of life and all that jazz which he takes. He then turns into a DG as we know them - if not more closer to a chosen of chaos. But by that point his mind has been warped and he feels the powers granted to him are a gift. The DG so afflicted in this book make great note to indicated the power and ability that comes with the blessing. Slaanesh, for instance, is shown as a slow warping of the mind. In Fulgrim we witness the taste of art (of all forms) shift and change from traditional to the vulgarities associated with slaanesh. And the entire time next to no one is any the wiser as the corruption is that slow and pervasive. That’s the thing with chaos. They slowly manipulate the target’s mind to win them over so that by the time the corruption is fully set the individuals truly do view their gifts as that.
He is as bad as the other three. People make memes about him being nice because he claims to love everyone. In truth, the plague is a narcissist who wants to impose his will on everyone else. He doesn’t care that nobody wants his gifts, he forces them to like him because they would never accept his gifts otherwise. On top of that, he’s a big hypocrite. Nurgle talk about accepting the natural cycle of death rot and renewal. Accept the way he invades the material universe is violating the natural cycles and creates perpetual rot. Or he just destroys everything. All while making select few servants who please him immortal. So apparently his talk of accepting the cycle of death, rot and renewal only applies to mortals. People throw accusations of communism at the Tau but if you want to criticize someone for preaching about a system while they reap all the rewards and force everyone else to make the sacrifices, throw those accusations at Nurgle.
The good guy vibe is way overstated due to memes and nurgle fans actually believing it to be the case. Especially for mortals its just not a good time, but thats chaos in a nutshell. You gain great power but suffer the consequences. HOWEVER i will say, nurgle daemons do posses a lot of joy and great unclean ones as a whole do genuinely care about nurglings and vice versa for example. The sloppity bilepiper is an undeniable fact that although it gets memed it is based on fact and canon. Nevermind the nurglings having the time of their of life...you just gotta keep in mind that what they do with joy is make other beings suffer. From a nurgle daemons players perspective, yes! Theres joy in the plague gods service and everyone should be happy to enjoy the gifts of nurgle, as they show his love and appreciation to his children. To anyone else...hes a chaos god. And he'll make you suffer, possibly worse or on par of the level that slaanesh will torture you. Warhammer 40k is all about perspective, no one is the good guy. Hell a lot of the factions arent even grey. And its easy to lose yourself in the perspective of the army that you love, but you have to keep other perspectives in mind to get the whole picture of what your army actually entails. Sorry for the long message, just get really stoked about nurgle haha
Lords of silence. You should listen to/read it. A main character was forced into nurgle servitude. It was incredibly horrific watching him resist and then to realize he’s stuck forever and the only “help” he could receive is actual death. You really feel his fight and eventual defeat like the worst kidnap victim. Overall his story was an amazing listen but when taking a step back you really see how horrific his prospects for “life” became when captured.
I hope we get a second book. It would be interesting to see Dantine progress through the ranks
It's Stockholm Syndrome personified. You read about the victims, they are in constant pain and discomfort. Many are dying from whatever maladies Papa Nurgle has bequeathed on them. In Chapter 3 of ***Dark Imperium: Godblight***, we learn of two of Nurgle's followers. They are physically ravaged and have to scrounge for survival among the bones of the prior inhabitants. The two (Cherala and Odifus) are about 12 years old and expect to die at 24. Neither have any knowledge of their past. They are fearful to speak out against Nurgle's gifts on their bodies because Nurgle may inflict even more pain on them. In one of the Horus Heresy books, Mortarion quietly admits to Magnus that he hates what Nurgle has done to him.
Nurgle loves his followers he just is that toxic person who, when he shows it, makes everything worse. I think of him like a doting father who gives out heroin that rots the body because its how he shows love. His followers are addicts who can't feel the pain (because heroin). Meanwhile, they are slowly becoming numb to everything, decaying. He spreads his gifts around freely, drawing you in with a taste, then next thing you know you haven't showered for months, your teeth are rotten and you live in a den with other addicts. Doing little tasks for daddy, just to get a taste. He's not a bad guy at heart, but he'll fuck up your life faster than you'd imagine.
Nurgle its a neckbeard. All its just an act, he brainwashes his victims and they believe theyre happy. Its similar to cult leaders or incels that pretend to be good people to get laid.
It depends on what era of lore you're approaching from. The chaos that's around in modern 40k has been dumbed down in the extreme and lost a lot of it's nuance, they are all bad all the time. Didn't used to be so, which makes everyone moaning about "learning lore from memes" kind of hilarious.
Absolutely no one, and I repeat, no one is wholesome in 40K.
Orks will always be wholesome to me Even if they're actually terrifying I find them relentlessly smile inducing
The way the Siege of Terra describes the Death Guard perspective is very much reminiscent of a person who is being kept high on far too many painkillers. They feel no pain, and they start thinking and moving slower, their senses dulled. One of them straight up says he thinks theye all gotten dumber since Nurgle took hold. They see a little daemonic Nurgling burrow out of the chest of an enemy, and instead of seeing how wrong or disgusting it is, they start giggling uncontrollably when it farts. They might be having a good time because of how corrupted their minds are, but that's also true of Slaanesh devotees who crave the extreme sensations and pleasures of their worship, or Khorne Berserkers who experience pleasure whenever blood is spilled. Even Tzeentch worshippers probably believe that they and they alone are brilliant enough to have figured out how to take advantage of His power without any downsides right up until they inevitably screw up and get turned into a mindless twisted blob of flesh and limbs.
Nurgle does kill his human followers rather quickly. Basically, you get perhaps 30 years old, then you die. All those illnesses kill you, and before you die, you are in pain and you suffer. Nurgle is no good. Not for humans. Now, it is different for Space Marines. Nurgle seems to like Space Marines. As a Marine, usually do do not die, you become immortal. You also do not feel pain. And you do not succumb to your illness, you get stronger through them. There are quite a lot of Plaguemarines who are quite happy. There are also a lot of Noisemarines who are happy. Generally, if you want to feel content, be a Spacemarine, and go with Slaneesh or Nurgle. that is your best bet. Everybody else should stay da fuck away from Nurgle.
> All those illnesses kill you, and before you die, you are in pain and you suffer. Nurgle is no good. Chill with the memes... While followers of Nurgle do get a bunch of diseases as "Gifts", they won't normally harm the carrier. It's like your gut-bacteria won't normally harm you either.
No, The illnesses do hurt them, and they usually die very young. This is stated quite clearly in Dark Imperium, Godblight, when we get the POV from the Plague planet.
I don't remember what you are referring to, do you have an exerpt? We do great examples to the contrary in Lord of Silence, with the "unchanged".
**‘There were cities here, once,’ said Cherala. She coughed, and spat out a gob of phlegm. Her hip was hurting again, and her foot dragged. Another dubious gift from the jolly Grandfather.** **‘Shut up, Cherala. There never were.’ Odifus had a honking voice, a legacy of the ear-worms that had got into his head when he was a babe. He could barely hear still over their trilling, and shouted all the while.** Cherala cringed. Odifus’ shout stirred up clouds of bile flies from the mounds. Giant fungi quivered and turned squelching on their stalks to watch them pass. **‘There were! Grandpa said,’ said Cherala. She pushed greasy hair out of her good eye. The other was half closed by throbbing growths.** **The witch kin in the village said the tumours might go, they might not; it depended how hard she prayed, to her other grandfather, the fat one, merry lord, Nurgle-in-the-mist.** ‘There was a city right here, in the Stink Forest.’ ‘Rubbish!’ boomed Odifus. ‘No cities on Noxia. None at all.’ The pair of them had only the faintest conception of what a city was, but they knew there were lots of people in them. ‘Stupid, cramming together like that. Fastest way for pox to spread.’ Pox: they used it as shorthand for everything, whatever sickness, disease or malady, though when it came to proper description, when it mattered, they had myriad words, one for each of Grandfather’s gifts. ‘It’s true,’ Cherala said. Odifus’ dismissal of her tale annoyed her, and she fought back for once. She pointed up to the towering toad-trees, a thousand mottled slime caps growing on every one. ‘These was buildings, big as the sky, and this…’ She pointed at the squelching mosses they walked upon. ‘This was roads, all hard.’ ‘First things, this is moss. Second things, roads is mud and muck,’ said Odifus. ‘This is a forest, always been a forest. Trees and slime and flies. No buildings, nothing *hard.*’ ‘Yeah, that so?’ Cherala grumbled quietly, but Odifus heard her fine for once. ‘That’s so,’ said Odifus. They came to the edge of the scrounging grounds. Beneath the profusion of creepers and trees, square, regular oblongs could be made out, stacked in places five high. Their rusted doors hung half open, showing foetid darknesses within. From a distance, they looked like blocky boulders, and a little kidling might take them for such, **but Cherala was twelve years old, halfway through her life, and wise as they come.** The blocks were metal, rotted through for the most part, and in places sunk half into the swamp, but when her grandpa – her human grandpa, that is – told the tale of the city that was, she believed, because she had seen the boxes. ‘Then what are these then?’ she said. ‘God boxes,’ shouted Odifus. ‘Gifts from Grandfather’s pantries in his Black Manse. Way, way up in the garden.’ Odifus turned back to look at her. His face was swollen with a goitre, so that it was stretched, and his jowls hung upon his chest. Sweat stained his mouldering clothes. **He looked as old as fifty, though he was only Cherala’s age.**
Thanks for the excerpt. It makes me wonder how long a year on the plague planet is if 12 is considered middle age.
Nurgle is like a sex traffiker who pumps people full of drugs and plays mind games making them unable to realize that they're being whored out and their bodies used to enrich him. They think "Daddy" loves them because they're so high that they dont notice whats being done to them, and he's manipulated them into believing all the horrible things they do to themselves is actually for their benefit. It's the worse form of toxic relationship, no pun intended.
Definitely Stockholm Syndrome. He'll break your mind and burn it away with horrible pain and corrupt your body with awful plagues, to the point where your mind breaks and your body just *stops feeling pain* to have you call him "Grandfather". His jolliness is genuine but also kind of a facade, I'd say.
¿Porque no los dos?
*Yes*
It's both. Nurgle really does love his followers but the way a Chaos god feels or expresses love is different from how a human does. And for Nurgle, his love is convoluted with his ambitions to spread his gifts to all. Does he love Isha? He loves having a permanent guest that he can talk to, will never die, helps him make new diseases, and will never leave. Doesn't matter to Nurgle is Isha doesn't love him back. In fact I think that's where his caring ends. He cares and he loves as long as you give yourself to him. So long as you can endure his gifts and spread them to others, Nurgle loves you dearly. And he will make sure you're always looked after alongside other worshippers and his daemons. As far as his daemons. He loves his daemons. I think he really does. They are a part of him, and they are unquestionably loyal to him. Even his little nurglings love him despite their antics and, for that, he loves them back.
Yeah I think it's hard super Stockholm Syndrome, like part of the sickness he spreads is mental health problems preventing you from realising what is happening to you. So subjectively you may well feel fine. Bit you would never ever ever choose this life in sound mind. Maybe Nurgle has the slightly unusual property of thinking the lifestyle it offers is genuinely good? I don't think Khorne cares about welfare at all one way or the other, Slaanesh is selfish by nature and encourages a focus on individual excellence and extreme experience even if at the expense of others, and Tzeentch values ambition not necessarily actually succeeding. But I think Nurgle actually takes the madness and decay it brings to be good for everyone. A kinda warped stoicism -- in the end things are definitely going his way, why not give in and practice a kinda radical acceptance? Not that we should agree with Nurgle!! But I think that, plus the fact that we get Nurgle followers own perspectives within their warped framework, is what leads to people thinking Nurgle is good.
Like a parent who has favorites. Can't be the sports kid he wished you were? disowned.
The only people who think Nurgle is wholesome are the brainrotted autistic meme lords who post non-stop about shovel boiz, eldar girlfriends, and various factions being turned into femboys. Oh and MLP versions of their favourite factions, those are also big.
Let's all pretend there is a faction that doesn't involve Stockholm Syndrome.
None of the gods are wholesome, they are all fundamentally evil in spite of their better and worse natures. Part of nurgles better nature is kind of the only god who recognizes the kind of grim darkness of the universe. There's like nothing but endless war, strife, and suffering and he genuinely doesnt seem to think this is good for anyone. His solution to this problem is nihilistic, to kill every living thing in the galaxy, if not universe, to end the pain and suffering. Its part of his better nature, like he definitely sees suffering and recognizes it to be a bad thing, but on the other hand his goal of killing everything is not really the solution anyone suffering really wants and even worse the way he kills people employs untold suffering. I beleive his justification is no matter how long it takes, several hundred million years, billions of years, it doesnt matter how much siffering he makes or how long it takes, if he is successful eventually the time of peace will last vastly longer than the time of suffering (ie. If it takes him 100B years to kill all life in the universe, in 10^50 years 100B is like the blink of an eye. 100B vs 9.999...^50 is basically a peaceful and harmonious universe). Its not wholesome, its more pragmatic than anything else. The thing is, nurgles sort of impression of time is kind of womething his followers can kind of lose faith in. Mortarian agrees with nurgles desire for peace and harmony and even makes the leap of ending all life to achieve it, but after 10k years with basically no move on that particular needle mortarian finds himself frustrated with nurgles passive long game plan. Mortarian kind of just sees himself only causing more of the misery he always hated. Incidentally here is a cool video on [Deep Time](https://youtu.be/jDF-N3A60DE?si=KTr8rnkfFIThCJ5A). This is why some people say nurgle is more of a god of entropy than a god of death Edit: speaking of grim dark, the video is just a good rewatch. This aint no fictional grim darkness of the future, this is the grim darkness of the future where black holes and sub atomic particles degenerate and the cosmis horizon shrinks to the size of a sub atomic particle.
All the chaos gods, daemons and warp entities are so completely different inherently from humans that their morality doesn't make sense at all to humans. Its like how we humans care for plant and animal life. We have no problem culling of entire populations of plants and animals to stop the spread of a disease - but no one ould even suggest that if it as humans that were infected.
Not to say he is not wholesome but yeah he is Stockholm syndrome personified but you cant really blame him his mind works differently from a humans he understands things very differently than a human might not to mention how he perceives time
People keep asking this as if they've never seen art of his followers...no, he is not Mr Wholesome. 😂
Forced Stockholm syndrome. He'll infect you with an incurable super virus, making you feel the most pain you'll ever feel and attempt to make you utterly hopeless. He'll fool you into thinking he can save you from the disease ravaging your body, and if you accept his help, he'll fully corrupt you, making you his pawn and "saving" you from the very disease he infected you with.
I saw something recently about how the whole idea of Stockholm syndrome is based on some truly shoddy work and the assumption that empathizing with the hostage takers was some sort of psychological disorder. To put it in 40K terms, Stockholm syndrome is how in Inquisition would explain Tau sympathizers… if they had to explain anything at all, ever. They wouldn’t interview the sympathizers, they would just assume they were deviant and construct the theory of the case accordingly. Your request for an explanation has been noted, please report to your local commissar for an… explanation. Dammit imma have to find that article.
No. The presence of a Blank or some similar psychic disruption makes the Death Guard scream in absolute terror at what's happened to them. Part of following Nurgle is an imposed "I'm ok with this". The "I'm ok with this" can wear off Sources: The Dark Imperium Trilogy, The End and the Death Part 3
Nah, it’s a meme. Being a Nurgle cultist sucks just as much as every other chaos god. Just a different flavor of suck.
Why on god's green earth would the Chaos God of Despair and Plague actually be wholesome and *not* control it's followers with Stockholm Syndrome?
They're all murder gods. Weird murder, gross murder, gratuitous murder, and sexy murder.
No. There is *nothing* good about the chaos gods in 40K. Nurgle is papa Stockholm syndrome. They’re unable to see the horror of their situation.
Nurgle is called grandfather for a reason. He does care. Khorne doesn't want the weak or the crippled. Nurgle does Slaanesh doesn't want those who have no desire for ecess. Nurgle does. Tzeentch doesn't want those without guile or desires for power. Nurgle does. Nurgle takes the destitute, the sick, the miserable, the downtrodden. He welcomes those who are outcast from society. And that is the great peril of nurgle. Nurgle understands you will achieve much with a kind word. So he says "cone to me, revive my blessing and you will no longer feel ill from sickness, you will have strength and durability, you have companionship even a twisted type of family. Is he good? Depends on your point of view.
Not really, his followers are continually jolly (apparently) this is clear in “heart of decay” however as we can see in “lords of silence” some are indeed jolly (really it’s only the Nurglings) wile everyone else seems incredibly depressed and the followers do acknowledge the gross and twisted ways they’ve been manipulated to feel okay about Its sad hearing the problems and horrific themes in the setting of lords of silence however it is still badass I will say each author can have there own take but from GW mainly, we know all nurgle daemons are incredibly jollly and made just like there chaos god counter part so In reality yes he’s a jolly green giant Butttt, each chaos god immensely twists and bends the will of there followers or those who wanna follow them with heavy manipulation however ones who don’t need persuasion and accept the god and do his bidding or enact plans to further the influence which they’ll be blessed for And even lesser followers will gain blessings throught Each chaos god is like picking a poison fruit of greatness they all taste good but no matter what you’ll probably die however your a starving child who doesn’t know better, what I mean is each god is good in there own way objectively
The followers who've really drunk the Kool aid are happy and most are just apathetic because that's depression for you. But the demons are genuinely happy and jolly because they find pleasure in things like studying new bacteria and diseases emerge from the decay of things around them. But that's not exactly wholesome because the things decaying are billions of people etc.