None of the four main gods ever have as far as we know. Could they? Unclear. Minor chaos gods (who are the same category of entity as the main gods only less powerful) have manifested in real space. Malice, minor chaos good of anarchy, was apparently summoned by the Sons of Malice chaos marines at one point. Vashtorr, powerful independent daemon / minor god of invention can manifest in real space apparently without even needing to be summoned.
Daemons are also tiny pieces of their respective god given semi-independence. So every time a daemon shows up in real space, it is a tiny bit of that god manifesting. Little demons can manifest freely but larger ones typically require sacrifices of some kind. Bigger daemons require more effort, so manifesting an entire Chaos God might require a level of sacrifice that is just not logistically possible.
It would also probably just break reality. When Slaanesh was born she didn't break into real space, she instead brought real space to her. She pulled the heart of the Eldar Empire directly into the warp. That was at least a few dozen star systems, possibly more. Those planets are still in the warp, accessible through the Eye of Terror.
So that's probably what would happen if there was a genuine effort with a big enough sacrifice to summon a Chaos God. The God wouldn't enter real space, real space would enter the Warp.
Vashtorr needs some requirement to be manifested to real space, in Arks of Omen Abaddon, he has to manipulated events for hundreds of year for manifesting on the command throne of the Vengeful Spirits.
Tiny caveat to Vashtorr: he's not actually all that powerful currently - he's rather weaker than a Greater Daemon, for instance, and is roughly on par with a generic (i.e. non Primarch/Be'lakor) Daemon Prince
Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes can be considered roughly the same "power level," because their strength waxes and wanes with the circumstances of their environment as well as the favor they have from their patron god.
While that can be true, a generic Greater Daemon from any of the Big Four is about twice as powerful as Vashtorr in game terms currently
Yes, I know game power isn't a hard and fast metric, but for such a new character I feel we can be confident that it more or less represents how powerful he's intended to be
That is... Not the best reasoning. If that were the case, you would be trying to say a primarch is worth only a handful of regular Astartes, and we know that is most certainly not the case based on what the lore has shown us time and again. The game mechanics on some level are indicative of what combat and such *could* be like, but they can't actually represent the true combat potential of any of the models in the way the lore depicts them.
Many if not all books are written in a (deliberately) hyperbolic way, with power levels depending on who the protagonist is
Within the last month alone I've read a story where 10 Scouts kill 3000 cultists, and another where one Guard Sniper kills multiple Chaos Space Marines
Ignoring the truly wacky ups and downs of Black Library authors- real world combat, and competition in general, doesn't happen on paper. The best driver doesn't always win the race. The best fighter sometimes watches their opponent's fist get raised instead of their own. Circumstances play a huge role in outcomes, and even more so with daemons. To borrow a line from Aaron Dembski-Bowden, [they are creatures of spiritual resonance and not DBZ-style power levels.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8s5mw5/master_of_mankind_questions_spoilers/e0xn4sb/) Their power grows when the circumstances of their environment align with how they were born, and it diminishes when those same circumstances are reversed and turned against it. That is even before we get into how the favor they have from their respective god can influence this.
A great example of this is Skarbrand and his battle against Lemartes and the Blood Angels Death Company. In the throes of the Black Rage, their belief they were attacking the arch-traitor himself in Horus resonated with Skarbrand's own betrayal, allowing the Space Marines to significantly wound and eventually banish the otherwise unstoppable brute.
The tabletop is not necessarily indicative of the lore, and nor should it. It is meant to be a tabletop game first and foremost, with a reasonable amount of models to be played and every army having a fair fight against another. Until the day comes where you or I can drop thousands of hormagaunts upon a table for every 1 Astartes, you shouldn't use tabletop stats as anything representing the lore especially "power levels."
Be’lakor isn’t on the same level as ‘an ordinary daemon Prince’ he’s in the same kind of tier as the major greater daemons like Skarbrand, Kairos, Shalaxi and Kugath as well as the daemon Primarchs. According to Arks of Omen on he is on a similar level to vashtorr if not more outright powerful.
I think you misread my comment, I said that Vashtorr is on parr with a 'generic' Prince
Be'lakor and the Daemon Primarchs (plus certain AoS ones like Sigvald) are more in line with Greater Deamons, yes.
>Malice, minor chaos good of anarchy, was apparently summoned by the Sons of Malice chaos marines at one point.
Malice isn't a Chaos god, minor or otherwise. Malice is a daemon who appears in one short story and does pretty much nothing noteworthy. You're thinking of Malal, who only appeared in a Warhammer Fantasy comic and was never part of 40K (and can barely even be called a part of WHFB). Some people just started insisting that Malal and Malice are the same character, even though they're not even part of the same franchise, and everyone went along with it. Malice is the recycled version of Malal, but not the same character, and never a god.
Malice is pretty explicitly a minor "outcast" chaos god per *The Labyrinth* by Richard Ford:
> Now, only one deity was offered reverence in this cold empty vessel: the
exalted Malice, the Renegade God, the Outcast, Malice the Lost, Hierarch of
Anarchy and Terror. And He would soon receive nourishment aplenty when the
feeding began.
The Sons of Malice, and by extension Malice itself, has been referenced in more than a single novel or short story. Mind you, not a whole lot, but they are mentioned.
The short story is from the perspective of the Sons of Malice. The lore is full of people worshipping warp entities or daemons as gods, or daemons declaring themselves gods, that doesn't make them one. As readers we're not supposed to believe everything a character believes. Malice does absolutely nothing except be summoned, and it only took about ten sacrifices. Nothing about that indicates that he's anything more than a daemon, not even a particularly impressive one.
And he does only show up in a single short story, 15 years ago. Sons of Malice show up during the fall of Cadia, but Malice isn't even mentioned beyond their name.
>> “The difference between gods and daemons depends largely upon where one stands at the time.”
\- Lorgar, quoting Argel Tal.
If the legion of Chaos experts believe the difference between gods and daemons is relative and not absolute, who are we to disagree?
What a god is, is not even a defined thing in 40K. The forces of chaos worship them as gods but that doesn’t necessarily make them gods. Nobody worships the c’tan but they are called gods but they are also just things that exist as part of the physical universe. Gork and Mork are gods but there is no evidence they even exist outside of some orks claiming to have heard from them and on the other hand you have the Emperor who is supposedly definitely not a god but may have become one?
It’s an intentionally vague classification really and just a descriptor of incredibly powerful entities in the universe by characters that themselves believe and have vested interests in their patrons being considered gods.
No. Daemons need a certain amount of warp energy to be flowing into realspace to sustain their presence. Large daemonic legions need stable warp rifts. The Eye of Terror, where there's a lot of overlap between the warp and realspace, allows for some insane daemonic shenanigans, and still isn't enough for a full chaos god to manifest.
The chaos gods are insanely colossal masses of warp energy. I don't think it's possible for there to ever be enough overspill for them to manifest in realspace. At that point it wouldn't be realspace any more.
The art you see of them is just like their 'avatar'. Truthfully their entire realm is them.
They can’t manifest in Real Space. They are fundamentally nothing more than concepts that have gained sentience, and reality would collapse if they tried to cross over
When the first Ork Gargant was made, it drew the attention of Gork and Mork, who tried to look directly into Real Space to inspect it. Reality started breaking and other Warp Gods had to drag them back to prevent both the Warp and Real Space from collapsing
>Gork struggled towards awareness. Afler centuries of dormancy it was a long process. He sensed other Powers in the warp trying to interfere. He blocked a subtle tendril from Slaanesh, ignored a baleful warning from the Emperor; discounted the triumphant cry of Khorne. He reached out with his millennia-old mind and gathered the strength of his people. Soon he would be awake and active. A body of steel had been prepared for him. A time of blood and iron was approaching.
(...)
>Beyond them they sensed the Chaos Powers watching, waiting to see what advantage the God-brothers' actions might bring them. In the darkest pits of creation twisted creatures prepared to follow the Orks' advance. Gork and Mark did not care. They knew they were strong enough to resist Chaos.
Waaargh Da Orks
That literally isn't the gods dragging Gork and Mork back, it's just the same fucking quote everyone posts about them whenever anything to do with them shows up. I swear to god the literacy rate on this sub has either taken a massive nose dive or people will post any stupid fucking quote for credibility for other morons to upvote.
If you got the quote of the other gods dragging Gork and Mork, feel free to post. The excerpt I posted is the one we see them reacting to the construction of the Gargant, which I believe is the thing the guy was mentioning.
It's a lore subreddit, lore that derives from books/literature.
I think it's pretty reasonable to be annoyed at peoples lack of understanding of said literature when stating things as facts from it.
In a lore subreddit, sure thing friend. My frustration is mostly with the fact that most people on reddit don't actually read the shit they're talking about and parrot stuff that doesn't actually apply to what they're talking about.
Then you should had replied to the guy who told stuff I corrected, because the story of the gargant don't have the other gods dragging them, the oposite, gork and Mork ignore said attempts
>Mork waved on the face of the warp, brushing aside Daemons and ignoring ancient barriers set by long dead Gods He moved from world to world and placed in the heart of every Ork the desire to be restless, to move, to follow the siren call of adventure when it came. He sensed other Powers subtly striving to oppose him and laughed as their attempts to restrain his crude, irresistible purpose.
Not my fault if someone asked for an excerpt of something that don't happen
I saw a similar comment, but I cant really find it. The Waaargh Orks from the 90`s got a story with pov from Gork and Mork as a gargant is made, but it dont say the other gods had to drag them, instead all that happens is that they ignore the other gods.
I love that the top three answers for this all disagree. One is “no”, next is “idk”, third is “yes”
The answer is hard to say, there isn’t anything that says cant, but nothing that says they can.
Also IIRC Nurgle and Khorne were around during the war in heaven. As far as why they seem human centered, that’s because you see them from a human perspective. To another species, they’d appear far different. The minis and artwork will reflect chaos as closer to what we know as humans because that is what is compelling to us, to other species they’d appear as whatever makes sense
There's background (old, but I don't believe it's been formally decannonised) stating that Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were created by humanity during the middle ages
Recentish background from The Macharian Crusade series implies that the Aeldari fall was only a short time before the Great Crusade, so the timings do work roughly
Entirely possible and likely the gods were birthed during the WIH as that is what destabilized the warp in the first place, though they may have not come into full prominence as there were the Eldar Gods, Old Ones and many other factors that stopped them from being totally dominant. No god of chaos has ever stepped into real space for reasons unknown, most likely due to the Great Game or that they are incapable of doing so due to their own nature or real space. No warp god has ever been mentioned that I know of being in real space, even Khaine only exists in shards in his avatar state
The eldar gods, from what I recall, are weapons that the old ones created to fight with the eldar, it’s just been so long that the eldar forgot this and started to worship them at some point. Chaos gods on the other hand are created when certain emotions become so much that they become a manifestation in the warp, where they grow stronger by feeding on the continuous creation of these emotions.
Human gods probably exist in the warp, but more so because humanity put so much belief in them that they came to life rather than being alive before humanity.
Yea the weapon theory is definitely a possibility, due to the Eldars use of warp craft with bonewraith or whatever it’s called. They definitely could have spawned them the same as the Chaos gods or humanity, but were likely able to do it faster due to their psychic might and the guidance of the Old ones
What is the warp as we understand it, more specifically it's limitations. The emperor at this point must be akin to a god by now right, if enough belief has been poured into him, and if that's how it works can he not regenerate himself theoretically?
The warp is the realm/reflection of emotions and energy from the material plane, which means that when you have enough emotion or do something symbolic, such as the first murder it has a reflection in the warp. The main limitation of the warp is that it creatures from it need to be directly fed by the warp, which means deamons just can’t wander into your house, rest on your couch, and say your edibles ain’t shit, without having a direct tear to the warp nearby.
The reason the emperor isn’t healing is because the golden shitter is probably sucking away his soul and he can’t get up or else the webway spews daemons and the planet explodes.
Wasn’t only sealed because the throne was the thing sealing it? They sacrificed pyskers to keep it going but the only true way to keep it powered is for someone to be sitting on it. At least that’s what I remember, it’s been a while
I'm not sure anymore to be honest, they sacrificed 1000 psykers to keep it opened is what I assumed, so the emperor could go in and help. Then when they retreated out, the emperor had to be on the thrown to close it, but he must later get off to face horus at some point, unless they sacrifice more people but I haven't read that far yet.
An answer, it's okay, I know the larger beats of the story, but I also enjoy the smaller details.
Thank you for your consideration, though. I appreciate it.
The Warp is a bit like a distorted fairground mirror - it twists (and warps!) stuff but at its core is a reflection of the real world
Regardless of whether the original Aeldari gods actually were created deliberately by the Old Ones or not, they are (or were) powerful Warp Entities akin to the Chaos Gods, but seemingly rather weaker
When the Aeldari gods fell, stories like Nurgle kidnapping Isha can be seen as metaphors for the big four absorbing the concepts the Aeldari gods represented
Humans absolutely do cause Warp Entities to be created, a good example being the Goddess T'au'va
Daemons are technically sharded off tiny bits of their respective gods so I guess it’s possible? Sometimes daemons require an entity to possess/consume in real space in order to manifest, sometimes the lore seems like it just has them walking out of monsters inc closets, so who knows. Headcanon is that the chaos gods *could* manifest if they were provided with a sacrifice of suitable magnitude but the plausibility of that is pretty low?
I doubt could be enough warp energy for that to happen. It takes a significant amount of effort to bring a greater daemon into the materium and they're a tiny fraction of one of the warp gods.
During the Siege of Terra the 4 gods are described as watching, as well as the Emperor looking and directly addressing them as well as Horus mentioning them just sitting around the shadows. But while they were present all of reality was just fucked, like it was merged with the warp, described as all cities of all civilizations were somehow all combined and laid out together. Essentially they would break real space and reality itself
'Why did you kill my son?' Was the first question, Orignally you think he's speaking to Horus about Sanguinius, but you learn he's speaking to the 4 gods about Horus. He just asks short questions, and of course they don't answer. They were really just there watching.
The End and the Death part 3. It's the last book of The Siege of Terra, and also the last book of the Horus Heresy series. The entire Siege of Terra novels have been great.
Although you probably have more 'interaction' with a chaos god in Godblight, which is also not much buts it's INCREDIBLY rare for them to be mentioned let alone actually talked about or interacted with
Naaaah you got the Siege, Cain novels, my favorite series Gaunts Ghosts, lots of Inquisitor books, tons of newer stuff as well. That's not counting the xenos books, I got burnt out towards the end of the Heresy and took a break, Came back to the Cain series and Gaunt series. They're both great for seperate reasons
I'm finding some of the chaos books hard to chew through, normally it'll take me a day and a half to read one of the novels, but slave of darkness, it's been like a week and I'm only half way through, just kinda not captivating me
I imagine the power needed for a full on chaos god to manifest in real space would basically tear open a warp rift.
So yes, they could technically manifest in real space, but it wouldn't remain real space for very long
There are scraps of all lore that kinda allude to the four directly intervening, but the newest lore to this is in the EatD vol 3.
The Four literally gather in (un)reality to watch Big E and Horus kill each other. Le2 literally gets bounced off Khorne if I remember.
Until now they havent and probably never will. It takes a lot just for daemon to appear and the choas gods are on another level. But sometimes their presence can be so strong that the boundaries between real space and warp break.
During mortarions and guillimans battle, nurgles presence was so strong that they were on the planet(forgot the name) and in nurgles garden at the same time. His garden basically started manifesting in real space. Thats also how the emperor was able to damage it after he possesed guilliman, cause he was right in it
Khorne twice if i remember correctly, not fully manifested but it seems like the gate of hell opened with khorne presence can be felt. First during Angron fight Malakbael and 2nd during Angron battle with Quintus Fleet and khorne appeared to spread Murder curse using his star sword
No they havent. It's theoreticly possible but it would require so much energy to do that there probably aren't even enough things in the galaxy to do it.
You’re asking if the ocean can manifest on land… I mean it COULD, but doing so would transform the land so completely you’d more accurately call it the ocean again.
Plus, there’s no real reason for them to. Yea it’s great fun and games to fuck with the materium and open rifts everywhere, but the physical world is where the beings that empower them are born. Stalemating the Imperium is a feature not a bug.
None of the four main gods ever have as far as we know. Could they? Unclear. Minor chaos gods (who are the same category of entity as the main gods only less powerful) have manifested in real space. Malice, minor chaos good of anarchy, was apparently summoned by the Sons of Malice chaos marines at one point. Vashtorr, powerful independent daemon / minor god of invention can manifest in real space apparently without even needing to be summoned. Daemons are also tiny pieces of their respective god given semi-independence. So every time a daemon shows up in real space, it is a tiny bit of that god manifesting. Little demons can manifest freely but larger ones typically require sacrifices of some kind. Bigger daemons require more effort, so manifesting an entire Chaos God might require a level of sacrifice that is just not logistically possible. It would also probably just break reality. When Slaanesh was born she didn't break into real space, she instead brought real space to her. She pulled the heart of the Eldar Empire directly into the warp. That was at least a few dozen star systems, possibly more. Those planets are still in the warp, accessible through the Eye of Terror. So that's probably what would happen if there was a genuine effort with a big enough sacrifice to summon a Chaos God. The God wouldn't enter real space, real space would enter the Warp.
Vashtorr needs some requirement to be manifested to real space, in Arks of Omen Abaddon, he has to manipulated events for hundreds of year for manifesting on the command throne of the Vengeful Spirits.
Tiny caveat to Vashtorr: he's not actually all that powerful currently - he's rather weaker than a Greater Daemon, for instance, and is roughly on par with a generic (i.e. non Primarch/Be'lakor) Daemon Prince
Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes can be considered roughly the same "power level," because their strength waxes and wanes with the circumstances of their environment as well as the favor they have from their patron god.
While that can be true, a generic Greater Daemon from any of the Big Four is about twice as powerful as Vashtorr in game terms currently Yes, I know game power isn't a hard and fast metric, but for such a new character I feel we can be confident that it more or less represents how powerful he's intended to be
That is... Not the best reasoning. If that were the case, you would be trying to say a primarch is worth only a handful of regular Astartes, and we know that is most certainly not the case based on what the lore has shown us time and again. The game mechanics on some level are indicative of what combat and such *could* be like, but they can't actually represent the true combat potential of any of the models in the way the lore depicts them.
Many if not all books are written in a (deliberately) hyperbolic way, with power levels depending on who the protagonist is Within the last month alone I've read a story where 10 Scouts kill 3000 cultists, and another where one Guard Sniper kills multiple Chaos Space Marines
Ignoring the truly wacky ups and downs of Black Library authors- real world combat, and competition in general, doesn't happen on paper. The best driver doesn't always win the race. The best fighter sometimes watches their opponent's fist get raised instead of their own. Circumstances play a huge role in outcomes, and even more so with daemons. To borrow a line from Aaron Dembski-Bowden, [they are creatures of spiritual resonance and not DBZ-style power levels.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8s5mw5/master_of_mankind_questions_spoilers/e0xn4sb/) Their power grows when the circumstances of their environment align with how they were born, and it diminishes when those same circumstances are reversed and turned against it. That is even before we get into how the favor they have from their respective god can influence this. A great example of this is Skarbrand and his battle against Lemartes and the Blood Angels Death Company. In the throes of the Black Rage, their belief they were attacking the arch-traitor himself in Horus resonated with Skarbrand's own betrayal, allowing the Space Marines to significantly wound and eventually banish the otherwise unstoppable brute. The tabletop is not necessarily indicative of the lore, and nor should it. It is meant to be a tabletop game first and foremost, with a reasonable amount of models to be played and every army having a fair fight against another. Until the day comes where you or I can drop thousands of hormagaunts upon a table for every 1 Astartes, you shouldn't use tabletop stats as anything representing the lore especially "power levels."
Be’lakor isn’t on the same level as ‘an ordinary daemon Prince’ he’s in the same kind of tier as the major greater daemons like Skarbrand, Kairos, Shalaxi and Kugath as well as the daemon Primarchs. According to Arks of Omen on he is on a similar level to vashtorr if not more outright powerful.
I think you misread my comment, I said that Vashtorr is on parr with a 'generic' Prince Be'lakor and the Daemon Primarchs (plus certain AoS ones like Sigvald) are more in line with Greater Deamons, yes.
>Malice, minor chaos good of anarchy, was apparently summoned by the Sons of Malice chaos marines at one point. Malice isn't a Chaos god, minor or otherwise. Malice is a daemon who appears in one short story and does pretty much nothing noteworthy. You're thinking of Malal, who only appeared in a Warhammer Fantasy comic and was never part of 40K (and can barely even be called a part of WHFB). Some people just started insisting that Malal and Malice are the same character, even though they're not even part of the same franchise, and everyone went along with it. Malice is the recycled version of Malal, but not the same character, and never a god.
Malice is pretty explicitly a minor "outcast" chaos god per *The Labyrinth* by Richard Ford: > Now, only one deity was offered reverence in this cold empty vessel: the exalted Malice, the Renegade God, the Outcast, Malice the Lost, Hierarch of Anarchy and Terror. And He would soon receive nourishment aplenty when the feeding began. The Sons of Malice, and by extension Malice itself, has been referenced in more than a single novel or short story. Mind you, not a whole lot, but they are mentioned.
The short story is from the perspective of the Sons of Malice. The lore is full of people worshipping warp entities or daemons as gods, or daemons declaring themselves gods, that doesn't make them one. As readers we're not supposed to believe everything a character believes. Malice does absolutely nothing except be summoned, and it only took about ten sacrifices. Nothing about that indicates that he's anything more than a daemon, not even a particularly impressive one. And he does only show up in a single short story, 15 years ago. Sons of Malice show up during the fall of Cadia, but Malice isn't even mentioned beyond their name.
>> “The difference between gods and daemons depends largely upon where one stands at the time.” \- Lorgar, quoting Argel Tal. If the legion of Chaos experts believe the difference between gods and daemons is relative and not absolute, who are we to disagree?
What a god is, is not even a defined thing in 40K. The forces of chaos worship them as gods but that doesn’t necessarily make them gods. Nobody worships the c’tan but they are called gods but they are also just things that exist as part of the physical universe. Gork and Mork are gods but there is no evidence they even exist outside of some orks claiming to have heard from them and on the other hand you have the Emperor who is supposedly definitely not a god but may have become one? It’s an intentionally vague classification really and just a descriptor of incredibly powerful entities in the universe by characters that themselves believe and have vested interests in their patrons being considered gods.
No. Daemons need a certain amount of warp energy to be flowing into realspace to sustain their presence. Large daemonic legions need stable warp rifts. The Eye of Terror, where there's a lot of overlap between the warp and realspace, allows for some insane daemonic shenanigans, and still isn't enough for a full chaos god to manifest. The chaos gods are insanely colossal masses of warp energy. I don't think it's possible for there to ever be enough overspill for them to manifest in realspace. At that point it wouldn't be realspace any more. The art you see of them is just like their 'avatar'. Truthfully their entire realm is them.
They can’t manifest in Real Space. They are fundamentally nothing more than concepts that have gained sentience, and reality would collapse if they tried to cross over When the first Ork Gargant was made, it drew the attention of Gork and Mork, who tried to look directly into Real Space to inspect it. Reality started breaking and other Warp Gods had to drag them back to prevent both the Warp and Real Space from collapsing
That’s the funniest thing I’ve ever heard, havin a big look that almost destroyed creation, what’s the source?
Very interesting thank you
Woah, got an excerpt for that lore?
>Gork struggled towards awareness. Afler centuries of dormancy it was a long process. He sensed other Powers in the warp trying to interfere. He blocked a subtle tendril from Slaanesh, ignored a baleful warning from the Emperor; discounted the triumphant cry of Khorne. He reached out with his millennia-old mind and gathered the strength of his people. Soon he would be awake and active. A body of steel had been prepared for him. A time of blood and iron was approaching. (...) >Beyond them they sensed the Chaos Powers watching, waiting to see what advantage the God-brothers' actions might bring them. In the darkest pits of creation twisted creatures prepared to follow the Orks' advance. Gork and Mark did not care. They knew they were strong enough to resist Chaos. Waaargh Da Orks
Thanks for the excerpt ! Also > Gork and Mark Oh hi, Mark.
That literally isn't the gods dragging Gork and Mork back, it's just the same fucking quote everyone posts about them whenever anything to do with them shows up. I swear to god the literacy rate on this sub has either taken a massive nose dive or people will post any stupid fucking quote for credibility for other morons to upvote.
If you got the quote of the other gods dragging Gork and Mork, feel free to post. The excerpt I posted is the one we see them reacting to the construction of the Gargant, which I believe is the thing the guy was mentioning.
You might be taking the lore for a game about space dolls a bit too seriously. You should probably go get some fresh air.
It's a lore subreddit, lore that derives from books/literature. I think it's pretty reasonable to be annoyed at peoples lack of understanding of said literature when stating things as facts from it.
Maybe you should consider taking reading more seriously. You could even do it while getting your fresh air!
Who said I don’t take reading seriously? You know you can read and enjoy without getting upset at others, right? Lmao
In a lore subreddit, sure thing friend. My frustration is mostly with the fact that most people on reddit don't actually read the shit they're talking about and parrot stuff that doesn't actually apply to what they're talking about.
How dare you care about lore in a lore sub
Fuck me right?
Then you should had replied to the guy who told stuff I corrected, because the story of the gargant don't have the other gods dragging them, the oposite, gork and Mork ignore said attempts >Mork waved on the face of the warp, brushing aside Daemons and ignoring ancient barriers set by long dead Gods He moved from world to world and placed in the heart of every Ork the desire to be restless, to move, to follow the siren call of adventure when it came. He sensed other Powers subtly striving to oppose him and laughed as their attempts to restrain his crude, irresistible purpose. Not my fault if someone asked for an excerpt of something that don't happen
IIRC, it was in an Ork Codex sometime around 5th edition. That’s when I read about it
I saw a similar comment, but I cant really find it. The Waaargh Orks from the 90`s got a story with pov from Gork and Mork as a gargant is made, but it dont say the other gods had to drag them, instead all that happens is that they ignore the other gods.
Here, found a copy http://www.fbruntz.fr/lpt/archives/ork_gargants2.html
Wrong interpretation and poor reading comprehension
Suddenly the chats between gods on TTS make more sense
I love that the top three answers for this all disagree. One is “no”, next is “idk”, third is “yes” The answer is hard to say, there isn’t anything that says cant, but nothing that says they can. Also IIRC Nurgle and Khorne were around during the war in heaven. As far as why they seem human centered, that’s because you see them from a human perspective. To another species, they’d appear far different. The minis and artwork will reflect chaos as closer to what we know as humans because that is what is compelling to us, to other species they’d appear as whatever makes sense
There's background (old, but I don't believe it's been formally decannonised) stating that Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were created by humanity during the middle ages Recentish background from The Macharian Crusade series implies that the Aeldari fall was only a short time before the Great Crusade, so the timings do work roughly
Entirely possible and likely the gods were birthed during the WIH as that is what destabilized the warp in the first place, though they may have not come into full prominence as there were the Eldar Gods, Old Ones and many other factors that stopped them from being totally dominant. No god of chaos has ever stepped into real space for reasons unknown, most likely due to the Great Game or that they are incapable of doing so due to their own nature or real space. No warp god has ever been mentioned that I know of being in real space, even Khaine only exists in shards in his avatar state
Humanity has been the main fuel for chaos besides the aeldari since before the birth of Slaanesh, so over 10,000, maybe even 15-20,000 years
So what's the difference between the Eldar gods versus chaos gods, what about humans God or gods? Do they exist in any analogy in 40k?
The eldar gods, from what I recall, are weapons that the old ones created to fight with the eldar, it’s just been so long that the eldar forgot this and started to worship them at some point. Chaos gods on the other hand are created when certain emotions become so much that they become a manifestation in the warp, where they grow stronger by feeding on the continuous creation of these emotions. Human gods probably exist in the warp, but more so because humanity put so much belief in them that they came to life rather than being alive before humanity.
Yea the weapon theory is definitely a possibility, due to the Eldars use of warp craft with bonewraith or whatever it’s called. They definitely could have spawned them the same as the Chaos gods or humanity, but were likely able to do it faster due to their psychic might and the guidance of the Old ones
What is the warp as we understand it, more specifically it's limitations. The emperor at this point must be akin to a god by now right, if enough belief has been poured into him, and if that's how it works can he not regenerate himself theoretically?
The warp is the realm/reflection of emotions and energy from the material plane, which means that when you have enough emotion or do something symbolic, such as the first murder it has a reflection in the warp. The main limitation of the warp is that it creatures from it need to be directly fed by the warp, which means deamons just can’t wander into your house, rest on your couch, and say your edibles ain’t shit, without having a direct tear to the warp nearby. The reason the emperor isn’t healing is because the golden shitter is probably sucking away his soul and he can’t get up or else the webway spews daemons and the planet explodes.
In the master of mankind they seal off the terran gate for the web way though, If a deamon laughed at my edibles I'd feed the warp with my sadness
Wasn’t only sealed because the throne was the thing sealing it? They sacrificed pyskers to keep it going but the only true way to keep it powered is for someone to be sitting on it. At least that’s what I remember, it’s been a while
I'm not sure anymore to be honest, they sacrificed 1000 psykers to keep it opened is what I assumed, so the emperor could go in and help. Then when they retreated out, the emperor had to be on the thrown to close it, but he must later get off to face horus at some point, unless they sacrifice more people but I haven't read that far yet.
Well do you want the answer or no spoilers?
An answer, it's okay, I know the larger beats of the story, but I also enjoy the smaller details. Thank you for your consideration, though. I appreciate it.
The Warp is a bit like a distorted fairground mirror - it twists (and warps!) stuff but at its core is a reflection of the real world Regardless of whether the original Aeldari gods actually were created deliberately by the Old Ones or not, they are (or were) powerful Warp Entities akin to the Chaos Gods, but seemingly rather weaker When the Aeldari gods fell, stories like Nurgle kidnapping Isha can be seen as metaphors for the big four absorbing the concepts the Aeldari gods represented Humans absolutely do cause Warp Entities to be created, a good example being the Goddess T'au'va
Daemons are technically sharded off tiny bits of their respective gods so I guess it’s possible? Sometimes daemons require an entity to possess/consume in real space in order to manifest, sometimes the lore seems like it just has them walking out of monsters inc closets, so who knows. Headcanon is that the chaos gods *could* manifest if they were provided with a sacrifice of suitable magnitude but the plausibility of that is pretty low?
I think that if you can see a Chaos deity (or even powerful daemonic entity), you can no longer honestly say that you are in real space.
Closest thing is Khorne empowers Angron so much that it's look like he is standing behind Angron to cleave Malakbael to pieces.
I doubt could be enough warp energy for that to happen. It takes a significant amount of effort to bring a greater daemon into the materium and they're a tiny fraction of one of the warp gods.
During the Siege of Terra the 4 gods are described as watching, as well as the Emperor looking and directly addressing them as well as Horus mentioning them just sitting around the shadows. But while they were present all of reality was just fucked, like it was merged with the warp, described as all cities of all civilizations were somehow all combined and laid out together. Essentially they would break real space and reality itself
What did the emperor say to them, and them to him?
'Why did you kill my son?' Was the first question, Orignally you think he's speaking to Horus about Sanguinius, but you learn he's speaking to the 4 gods about Horus. He just asks short questions, and of course they don't answer. They were really just there watching.
Heavy, what books this in if you don't mind.
The End and the Death part 3. It's the last book of The Siege of Terra, and also the last book of the Horus Heresy series. The entire Siege of Terra novels have been great. Although you probably have more 'interaction' with a chaos god in Godblight, which is also not much buts it's INCREDIBLY rare for them to be mentioned let alone actually talked about or interacted with
I'm kinda worried theres not going to be much to read when I'm finished the horus heresy proper.
Naaaah you got the Siege, Cain novels, my favorite series Gaunts Ghosts, lots of Inquisitor books, tons of newer stuff as well. That's not counting the xenos books, I got burnt out towards the end of the Heresy and took a break, Came back to the Cain series and Gaunt series. They're both great for seperate reasons
I'm finding some of the chaos books hard to chew through, normally it'll take me a day and a half to read one of the novels, but slave of darkness, it's been like a week and I'm only half way through, just kinda not captivating me
I imagine the power needed for a full on chaos god to manifest in real space would basically tear open a warp rift. So yes, they could technically manifest in real space, but it wouldn't remain real space for very long
Nope, best case is the Eye of Nurgle in Iax and Khorne's guillotine killing everyone in Pax Veritas
Arguably, that's what all daemons are.
There are scraps of all lore that kinda allude to the four directly intervening, but the newest lore to this is in the EatD vol 3. The Four literally gather in (un)reality to watch Big E and Horus kill each other. Le2 literally gets bounced off Khorne if I remember.
Was it really? I am pretty sure the entire Vengeful Spirit, Terra and everything beyond was entirely in the warp
Until now they havent and probably never will. It takes a lot just for daemon to appear and the choas gods are on another level. But sometimes their presence can be so strong that the boundaries between real space and warp break.
What does that look like, if the boundaries break?
During mortarions and guillimans battle, nurgles presence was so strong that they were on the planet(forgot the name) and in nurgles garden at the same time. His garden basically started manifesting in real space. Thats also how the emperor was able to damage it after he possesed guilliman, cause he was right in it
That's badass
Khorne twice if i remember correctly, not fully manifested but it seems like the gate of hell opened with khorne presence can be felt. First during Angron fight Malakbael and 2nd during Angron battle with Quintus Fleet and khorne appeared to spread Murder curse using his star sword
And during Gheistos cataclysm
No they havent. It's theoreticly possible but it would require so much energy to do that there probably aren't even enough things in the galaxy to do it.
You’re asking if the ocean can manifest on land… I mean it COULD, but doing so would transform the land so completely you’d more accurately call it the ocean again. Plus, there’s no real reason for them to. Yea it’s great fun and games to fuck with the materium and open rifts everywhere, but the physical world is where the beings that empower them are born. Stalemating the Imperium is a feature not a bug.