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Leave those in /r/Grimdank. This includes "who would win" and broad "what if" scenarios. This also includes text blocks consisting of Ork-speak, which should be posted at /r/40kOrkScience instead.
In Praetorian of Dorn the main character has a flash back to a time when he was defending a post from Orks. Dorn comes along and shows him the plan. It was not to create a fortress that could never be captured, because Dorn believes that everything will fail eventually. His plan was to build failure into his plan, and to use it against his enemies. Dorn studies and knows what his enemies will do, and then makes their strengths and his weaknesses a part of his plan.
He knew Alpharius would want to talk, and so remained silent. He knew Fulgrim would want glory, so fought him where none was to be gained. He knew Terra would not be able to withstand the siege, so focused on delaying it. And eventually he knew that Khorne wanted death for the sake of death and so showed him why and how it could be justified.
Dorn realises that people defeat themselves, and so gives them what they want.
I think Guilliman's ideal scenario is the one he is actually in in the current canon. A massive, galactic scale multifront war plays to his strengths much better than a single battle.
Well. As 'ideal' as can be imagined in 40k, where everything is trying to kill you and you're always on the backfoot (unless you're an ork). But yeah, he's in a position of power to apply his prowess in logistics and grand strategy!
I think he and Lorgar were the best at the crusade overall because they cared about the aftermath and bringing the worlds they conquered into the imperium as productive loyal new territories. that aspect seemed like it was entirely lost on others like Russ, Mortarion, and Curze.
It's why him being back and in charge is probably the best case for any primarch coming back to the imperium as his skillset was conquering and unifying
>Angron: Essentially a much less restrained and disciplined Sanguinius, but the game plan is the same: rush them and crush them before they can think of anything.
You've used the word *plan*. Angron does not know such petty words.
It's a neat idea but doesn't really work for 1-on-1s (which it seems wasn't your focus).
First off, juiced Horus would floor any other primarch under any conditions.
The other top tier primarchs include Magnus, Sanguinius, Vulkan, and maybe Eye of Terror-era Corax if he's allowed. They each have an ability that makes it virtually impossible for "bloke with sharp implement" primarchs to trade on an equal basis. I'm not sure special conditions like the chem-clouds of Barbarus would make much difference - Magnus could filter or kine-shield it out, Sanguinius has the mobility to choose the battlefield, and choking to death is all in a day's work for Vulkan.
The primarch with a good matchup against one of these is Russ, who has a special anti-psyker ability to keep Magnus honest. But I can only really think of that one case.
Oh yeah. My focus here was on mostly "uncorrupted" Primarchs being able to pick and choose their ideal terms of battle according to their strengths. And some of those strengths were not made for 1-on-1 battles, as in the case of Guilliman, or comes down to "being able to get in there with an elite squad". Or Curze embodying the method his Legion would use if they *really* wanted to go after another: Go for the eyes, the ears, the nose, the hands, bleeding them dry until they're in no shape to fight back, even if it takes months or years.
My one exception was Lorgar drawing on the powers of Chaos, and that was on a whim from thinking it's both essential to what he channels and kind of needed to "level" the playing field.
1-on-1, I definitely agree: Sanguinius is the strongest "pure" Primarch, Magnus the mightiest psyker, Vulkan outlasts *anyone*, and anyone "ascended" is going to be leagues above a "base" Primarch. The likes of Russ, Horus, and the Lion I see as being an ideal mix of brute force and skill to outfight a brother, bash their head in, and either finish them off or put them in chains. Either way, the idea is to KO them and take them out of the fight in the moment.
Yes, I get you were doing something a bit different.
>anyone "ascended" is going to be leagues above a "base" Primarch
The funny thing is that ascended primarchs seem, if anything, less effective combatants. They went 0-4 at the Siege of Terra (Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, and Magnus), or 1-4 if you count Horus vs Sanguinius - though that doesn't really count as being THE ascendent vessel of Chaos is a different order of thing and a definite buff.
The out-of-universe reason is obvious - ascended primarchs can "die" as many times as you like but Dorn, the Khan and Vulkan had to survive the siege. But you can also postulate quite a grimdark in-universe reason - ascension doesn't really give you any power, only eternal damnation. Certainly Fulgrim seemed far from the master swordsman of old and pretty dissatisfied with his lot.
Ayep! That immortality sadly made them Big Bad Things To Banish. Though it's also thematically consistent: They gained bodies that won't die and even power-ups that grew more significant, but are now lesser than what they were before.
Fulgrim gets dramatically sloppier and even more brittle to the point that he'd abandon a fight in a tantrum rather than see it to its conclusion. Magnus is one with the Warp, but is now subjected to the same weaknesses and missing the better parts of his soul. Angron would have died multiple times if not for his amped up regeneration. Mortarion, to his credit, *would* have succeeded if not for the Emperor's intervention.
Russ’s ideal matchup was Magnus, which is why he was sent. Firstly their personalities clashed, so Magnus’ natural charisma and charm didn’t work. Then Russ had an innate anti-psyker howl attack that protected him from sorcery.
That’s how he was able to bitchslap the one eyed freak on his own turf.
Rule 4: No Memes, shitposts, or low-effort postsor comments. Leave those in /r/Grimdank. This includes "who would win" and broad "what if" scenarios. This also includes text blocks consisting of Ork-speak, which should be posted at /r/40kOrkScience instead.
In Praetorian of Dorn the main character has a flash back to a time when he was defending a post from Orks. Dorn comes along and shows him the plan. It was not to create a fortress that could never be captured, because Dorn believes that everything will fail eventually. His plan was to build failure into his plan, and to use it against his enemies. Dorn studies and knows what his enemies will do, and then makes their strengths and his weaknesses a part of his plan. He knew Alpharius would want to talk, and so remained silent. He knew Fulgrim would want glory, so fought him where none was to be gained. He knew Terra would not be able to withstand the siege, so focused on delaying it. And eventually he knew that Khorne wanted death for the sake of death and so showed him why and how it could be justified. Dorn realises that people defeat themselves, and so gives them what they want.
I think Guilliman's ideal scenario is the one he is actually in in the current canon. A massive, galactic scale multifront war plays to his strengths much better than a single battle.
Well. As 'ideal' as can be imagined in 40k, where everything is trying to kill you and you're always on the backfoot (unless you're an ork). But yeah, he's in a position of power to apply his prowess in logistics and grand strategy!
I think he and Lorgar were the best at the crusade overall because they cared about the aftermath and bringing the worlds they conquered into the imperium as productive loyal new territories. that aspect seemed like it was entirely lost on others like Russ, Mortarion, and Curze. It's why him being back and in charge is probably the best case for any primarch coming back to the imperium as his skillset was conquering and unifying
>Angron: Essentially a much less restrained and disciplined Sanguinius, but the game plan is the same: rush them and crush them before they can think of anything. You've used the word *plan*. Angron does not know such petty words.
It's a wonder he even knows *any* words at this juncture.
Well he can plan *something* as shown in the red angel
"Coolheaded" Kharn: Our Lord has a plan: Attack.
It's a neat idea but doesn't really work for 1-on-1s (which it seems wasn't your focus). First off, juiced Horus would floor any other primarch under any conditions. The other top tier primarchs include Magnus, Sanguinius, Vulkan, and maybe Eye of Terror-era Corax if he's allowed. They each have an ability that makes it virtually impossible for "bloke with sharp implement" primarchs to trade on an equal basis. I'm not sure special conditions like the chem-clouds of Barbarus would make much difference - Magnus could filter or kine-shield it out, Sanguinius has the mobility to choose the battlefield, and choking to death is all in a day's work for Vulkan. The primarch with a good matchup against one of these is Russ, who has a special anti-psyker ability to keep Magnus honest. But I can only really think of that one case.
Oh yeah. My focus here was on mostly "uncorrupted" Primarchs being able to pick and choose their ideal terms of battle according to their strengths. And some of those strengths were not made for 1-on-1 battles, as in the case of Guilliman, or comes down to "being able to get in there with an elite squad". Or Curze embodying the method his Legion would use if they *really* wanted to go after another: Go for the eyes, the ears, the nose, the hands, bleeding them dry until they're in no shape to fight back, even if it takes months or years. My one exception was Lorgar drawing on the powers of Chaos, and that was on a whim from thinking it's both essential to what he channels and kind of needed to "level" the playing field. 1-on-1, I definitely agree: Sanguinius is the strongest "pure" Primarch, Magnus the mightiest psyker, Vulkan outlasts *anyone*, and anyone "ascended" is going to be leagues above a "base" Primarch. The likes of Russ, Horus, and the Lion I see as being an ideal mix of brute force and skill to outfight a brother, bash their head in, and either finish them off or put them in chains. Either way, the idea is to KO them and take them out of the fight in the moment.
Yes, I get you were doing something a bit different. >anyone "ascended" is going to be leagues above a "base" Primarch The funny thing is that ascended primarchs seem, if anything, less effective combatants. They went 0-4 at the Siege of Terra (Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, and Magnus), or 1-4 if you count Horus vs Sanguinius - though that doesn't really count as being THE ascendent vessel of Chaos is a different order of thing and a definite buff. The out-of-universe reason is obvious - ascended primarchs can "die" as many times as you like but Dorn, the Khan and Vulkan had to survive the siege. But you can also postulate quite a grimdark in-universe reason - ascension doesn't really give you any power, only eternal damnation. Certainly Fulgrim seemed far from the master swordsman of old and pretty dissatisfied with his lot.
Ayep! That immortality sadly made them Big Bad Things To Banish. Though it's also thematically consistent: They gained bodies that won't die and even power-ups that grew more significant, but are now lesser than what they were before. Fulgrim gets dramatically sloppier and even more brittle to the point that he'd abandon a fight in a tantrum rather than see it to its conclusion. Magnus is one with the Warp, but is now subjected to the same weaknesses and missing the better parts of his soul. Angron would have died multiple times if not for his amped up regeneration. Mortarion, to his credit, *would* have succeeded if not for the Emperor's intervention.
Russ’s ideal matchup was Magnus, which is why he was sent. Firstly their personalities clashed, so Magnus’ natural charisma and charm didn’t work. Then Russ had an innate anti-psyker howl attack that protected him from sorcery. That’s how he was able to bitchslap the one eyed freak on his own turf.