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I prefer Black Hawk Down to The Hurt Locker although they are both very good. My top 3 War movies are: Come and See (1985), The Battle of Algiers (1966) and Dr Strangelove (1964).
For the record, I consider Blackhawk Down to be the better movie. The Hurt Locker was entertaining, but lots of veterans of the Iraq War find elements of the film absolutely absurd, so I wouldn't consider that film to be a real chronicle of that war.
I would say the dividing line between war films is "antiwar" vs "jingoistic". I tend to be drawn to the antiwar side when it comes to war films. Stuff like Platoon or Apocalypse Now or Full Metal Jacket (the Vietnam era was rife with these films).
However, there's also good stuff on the jingoistic side of the war film divide. Saving Private Ryan was somewhat jingoistic, but its brilliantly staged action puts it over the top. Other ones, like We Were Soldiers, American Sniper, and Lone Survivor are pretty "America fuck yeah", but still have their merits. Then, you've got stuff that's absolute dreck like Act of Valor.
If you haven't yet, delve into some of the more recent WWI movies. 1917 and All Quiet on the Western Front are excellent films with excellent 4Ks. Paths of Glory is a black and white Kubrick film from the 50's that also has a terrific 4K disc and is just a great film all around. For the Iraq War, while it doesn't have a 4K set, I'd suggest watching the HBO miniseries Generation Kill, which follows recon Marines during the initial invasion of Iraq.
I have seen 1917 and have it in 4k, with all quiet on the western front I have been meaning to pick it up for a while on 4k but Iove both films.
I haven't heard of the HBP series generation kill or act of valor so I will add them to my list!
Thanks man I appreciate it, I think I am firmly in the 'antiwar' side of this discussion as I have watched saving private ryan and I don't think it's AS good as people make it out to be.
Generation Kill, definitely add to your list. If you're on the antiwar side of the war movie spectrum, then don't bother with Act of Valor. It's a genuinely terrible movie.
I agree with most of what you said, but I'd say that We Were Soldiers sort of treads the line between jingoist and anti war.
Yes, there are a lot of "America, fuck yeah" scenes, but it also shows horrific American mistakes (napalm friendly fire), attempts to humanize the enemy (Vietnamese soldier dies with a wife/girlfriend's photo), and shows the Vietnamese commander's regret at the prospect of a long costly war.
The line is not as simple as "America sucks" vs. "America, Fuck Yeah!"
We Were Soldiers shows the brutality of war, and also humanizes the opposing side, but it does so to cast warfare as an ultimately heroic and valorous activity. This the primary characteristic of what I call the "jingoistic" war movie. It may show horrors, it may express doubts, but ultimately, warfare is seen as glorious and honorable. OPs favorite movie, Black Hawk Down, sits squarely in this category.
The "antiwar" war film casts warfare as something dehumanizing and degrading. Think the progression from Marine boot camp to the sniper scene in Full Metal Jacket. The mini Mai-Lai that gets pulled off in Platoon. The madness of Apocalypse Now. War is not seen as valorous in these movies, but rather as something that should be avoided at all costs. However, they do it while reveling in the gore and muck and the violence of what is going on around them, sometimes to the point of exploitation.
I don't think I prefer one category to the other, except to say I tend to find the jingoistic ones more grating at their worst. And of course, all these movies exist on the spectrum and mix elements of each. Hell, even Pearl Harbor tried to play sympathetic to the Japanese Navy in it's own inept way.
I guess I was hung up on your use of the word 'jingoist'. Jingoism isn't the belief that war can be glorious, it's the belief that your county is better than all others (usually justifying the use of force or war). You can believe that war is wrong and your country isn't perfect while still acknowledging that combat can involve heroism and glory. That's why I questioned how a movie could be truly jingoist if it's showing the home nation as flawed or showing sympathy with the enemy. I guess you meant strictly pro-war vs anti-war.
Slightly off topic; there's an argument that most war movies can end up being interpreted (or misinterpreted) as pro-war because even a horrific portrayal of war can include heroism and glory. That's because real wars, however terrible or even unjustified, often *do* involve heroism and glory.
I wouldn't call a movie pro-war simply because it tries to depict a battle accurately and ends up showing actual heroics and glory. Although many viewers may interpret it that way.
IMO a pro-war movie would need to emphasize the heroics and competency of the home nation while vilifying the enemy. Many war movies have an antagonistic enemy, but they aren't necessarily vilified.
Obviously, this is all pretty subjective.
Does... he realize Black Hawk Down was based on a book, and the events actually happened?
From the IET Soldier's Handbook
*Learning that no ground forces were available to rescue one of the downed aircrews, and aware that a growing number of enemy were closing in on the site, MSG Gordon and SFC Shughart volunteered to be inserted to protect their critically injured comrades. Their initial request was turned down because of the danger of the situation. They asked a second time, permission was denied. Only after their third request were they inserted.*
*Armed only with their personal weapons, the two NCOs fought their way to the downed fliers through intense small arms fire, a maze of shanties and shacks, and the enemy converging on the site. After MSG Gordon and SFC Shughart pulled the wounded from the wreckage, they established a perimeter, put themselves in the most dangerous position, and fought off a series of attacks. The two NCOs continued to protect their comrades until they had depleted their ammunition and were fatally wounded. Their actions saved the life of the Army pilot.*
*They were posthumously awarded Medals of Honor.*
Come and See, Paths of Glory, and The Human Condition are the three best war films I've ever seen. If you haven't seen The Human Condition or Come and See, especially, you need to give them a shot. These are all-time greats, and should be required viewing for everyone.
Starship Troopers is the greatest war film ever because it’s both jingoistic and anti war at the same time
Not sure what my other top ones would be but Dunkirk and Saving Private Ryan are up there
Black Hawk down is one of the more accurate war films made.
I didn’t even make it through the first hour of Hurt Locker. No one‘s performance was bad, there was just too much buddy cop dialogue, and it was boring as hell. I definitely don’t feel it deserved the best director award, though I’m glad to see women getting more recognition in the industry. I just don’t think that was the place to do it.
Black Hawk Down is pretty solid from the perspective of the combat and the chaos that occurs.
Hurt Locker is an inaccurate in many ways, comically so…. but it makes the EOD guys feel good about themselves so… yay
If you want something that doesnt “celebrate” soldiers and dwells on their cruelty then watch “Casualties of War” with Michael J Fox and Sean Penn
Another illusion-ish but there for entertainment is Sniper with Tom Berenger and Billy Zane
Black Hawk Down hands down. I hate the term 'demo' disc but there is a reason that BHD was released on blu-ray and 4K UHD early on when the formats were first brought out.
And look at the cast!!!!! And the francshies/tv series they represented!
Ewan McGregor-Star Wars
Josh Hartnett - Sin City
Eric Bana - Marvel
Tom Sizemore - Saving Private Ryan
Tom Hardy & William Fichtner - Dark Knight
Jason Isaacs - Harry Potter
Ewen Bremner - Guy Ritchie flicks
Orlando Bloom - LOTR!!!!
Ron Eldard - ER Tv series
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau - GOT
Kim Coates - Sons of Anarchy
Jeremy Piven - Entourage
Top 3 War Flicks:
The Thin Red Line, The Longest Day, Das Boot (went with some no one has mentioned yet)
This discussion is wild to me because I thought black hawk down was barely ok when I watched it in theaters.
I remember it being so videogamey, with infinite enemies jumping into the fray just to get shot.
And I don’t know about apocalypse now. I really wanted to get into it, but the surfing dudes and the crazy cult leader made if feel like a weird movies that happens to take place in the middle of a war. Does that make sense?
Anyway, my top 3 are
Saving private Ryan
Enemy at the gates
1917
I also really like Jarhead, but there’s very little war in it.
Most hated 3:
Lone survivor (infinite ammo, enemies miss every shot, was shot in a place that doesn’t look like Afghanistan, and felt very disconnected, you could tell most shots were shot separate from each other, in different days. Just horrible, very videogamey)
American sniper (super videogamey, very unrealistic. A sniper that doesn’t have a spotter, just leaves his post and does whatever he wanted. I half expected him to get in a helicopter and complete a few helicopter missions)
The covenant (same as lone survivor)
I watched apocalypse now for the first time not long ago and I laughed my arse off at Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore because of how silly it was, maybe I laughed so much as I am a fan of money python and it felt very pythonesque however if you have watched any documentaries about the vietnam war you'll know it's really not too far from reality.
Platoon, apocalypse now and come and see. I think black hawk down was disguised as military propaganda. The US military industrial complex has a deep seated relationship with Hollywood and have the power to change and approve scripts as they see fit.
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I prefer Black Hawk Down to The Hurt Locker although they are both very good. My top 3 War movies are: Come and See (1985), The Battle of Algiers (1966) and Dr Strangelove (1964).
My LT had us watch the Battle of Algiers during our Pre-Mob training. Fantastic film.
Okay now I need to clue up more on war films as I have not seen, nor have I heard of those films.
Saving Private Ryan, Apocalypse Now, Black Hawk Down.
“Come and see” is the most harrowing and best war movie I have ever seen. The main characters change in appearance from beginning to end unbelievable.
For the record, I consider Blackhawk Down to be the better movie. The Hurt Locker was entertaining, but lots of veterans of the Iraq War find elements of the film absolutely absurd, so I wouldn't consider that film to be a real chronicle of that war. I would say the dividing line between war films is "antiwar" vs "jingoistic". I tend to be drawn to the antiwar side when it comes to war films. Stuff like Platoon or Apocalypse Now or Full Metal Jacket (the Vietnam era was rife with these films). However, there's also good stuff on the jingoistic side of the war film divide. Saving Private Ryan was somewhat jingoistic, but its brilliantly staged action puts it over the top. Other ones, like We Were Soldiers, American Sniper, and Lone Survivor are pretty "America fuck yeah", but still have their merits. Then, you've got stuff that's absolute dreck like Act of Valor. If you haven't yet, delve into some of the more recent WWI movies. 1917 and All Quiet on the Western Front are excellent films with excellent 4Ks. Paths of Glory is a black and white Kubrick film from the 50's that also has a terrific 4K disc and is just a great film all around. For the Iraq War, while it doesn't have a 4K set, I'd suggest watching the HBO miniseries Generation Kill, which follows recon Marines during the initial invasion of Iraq.
I have seen 1917 and have it in 4k, with all quiet on the western front I have been meaning to pick it up for a while on 4k but Iove both films. I haven't heard of the HBP series generation kill or act of valor so I will add them to my list! Thanks man I appreciate it, I think I am firmly in the 'antiwar' side of this discussion as I have watched saving private ryan and I don't think it's AS good as people make it out to be.
Generation Kill, definitely add to your list. If you're on the antiwar side of the war movie spectrum, then don't bother with Act of Valor. It's a genuinely terrible movie.
I check that out thanks for the recommendation.
I agree with most of what you said, but I'd say that We Were Soldiers sort of treads the line between jingoist and anti war. Yes, there are a lot of "America, fuck yeah" scenes, but it also shows horrific American mistakes (napalm friendly fire), attempts to humanize the enemy (Vietnamese soldier dies with a wife/girlfriend's photo), and shows the Vietnamese commander's regret at the prospect of a long costly war.
The line is not as simple as "America sucks" vs. "America, Fuck Yeah!" We Were Soldiers shows the brutality of war, and also humanizes the opposing side, but it does so to cast warfare as an ultimately heroic and valorous activity. This the primary characteristic of what I call the "jingoistic" war movie. It may show horrors, it may express doubts, but ultimately, warfare is seen as glorious and honorable. OPs favorite movie, Black Hawk Down, sits squarely in this category. The "antiwar" war film casts warfare as something dehumanizing and degrading. Think the progression from Marine boot camp to the sniper scene in Full Metal Jacket. The mini Mai-Lai that gets pulled off in Platoon. The madness of Apocalypse Now. War is not seen as valorous in these movies, but rather as something that should be avoided at all costs. However, they do it while reveling in the gore and muck and the violence of what is going on around them, sometimes to the point of exploitation. I don't think I prefer one category to the other, except to say I tend to find the jingoistic ones more grating at their worst. And of course, all these movies exist on the spectrum and mix elements of each. Hell, even Pearl Harbor tried to play sympathetic to the Japanese Navy in it's own inept way.
I guess I was hung up on your use of the word 'jingoist'. Jingoism isn't the belief that war can be glorious, it's the belief that your county is better than all others (usually justifying the use of force or war). You can believe that war is wrong and your country isn't perfect while still acknowledging that combat can involve heroism and glory. That's why I questioned how a movie could be truly jingoist if it's showing the home nation as flawed or showing sympathy with the enemy. I guess you meant strictly pro-war vs anti-war. Slightly off topic; there's an argument that most war movies can end up being interpreted (or misinterpreted) as pro-war because even a horrific portrayal of war can include heroism and glory. That's because real wars, however terrible or even unjustified, often *do* involve heroism and glory. I wouldn't call a movie pro-war simply because it tries to depict a battle accurately and ends up showing actual heroics and glory. Although many viewers may interpret it that way. IMO a pro-war movie would need to emphasize the heroics and competency of the home nation while vilifying the enemy. Many war movies have an antagonistic enemy, but they aren't necessarily vilified. Obviously, this is all pretty subjective.
I love The Hurt Locker but 90% of that movie is unrealistic in a war setting.
Saving Private Ryan 1917 Black Hawk Down
Dunkirk Glory Tropic Thunder (Ok… Saving Private Ryan)
Does... he realize Black Hawk Down was based on a book, and the events actually happened? From the IET Soldier's Handbook *Learning that no ground forces were available to rescue one of the downed aircrews, and aware that a growing number of enemy were closing in on the site, MSG Gordon and SFC Shughart volunteered to be inserted to protect their critically injured comrades. Their initial request was turned down because of the danger of the situation. They asked a second time, permission was denied. Only after their third request were they inserted.* *Armed only with their personal weapons, the two NCOs fought their way to the downed fliers through intense small arms fire, a maze of shanties and shacks, and the enemy converging on the site. After MSG Gordon and SFC Shughart pulled the wounded from the wreckage, they established a perimeter, put themselves in the most dangerous position, and fought off a series of attacks. The two NCOs continued to protect their comrades until they had depleted their ammunition and were fatally wounded. Their actions saved the life of the Army pilot.* *They were posthumously awarded Medals of Honor.*
Movies based on real events can show stuff that's not actually true, especially war movies (American Sniper, Lone Survivor etc) take liberties
All Quiet on the Western Front (2022) They Shall Not Grow Old (2018) Platoon (1986) Black Hawk Down has good action, but otherwise it’s pretty mid.
I don't like BHD or Hurt Locker, personally. My top 3 would be Saving Private Ryan (even with all of the jingoism,) 1917, and Enemy At The Gates.
Come and See, Paths of Glory, and The Human Condition are the three best war films I've ever seen. If you haven't seen The Human Condition or Come and See, especially, you need to give them a shot. These are all-time greats, and should be required viewing for everyone.
Star Wars is the best war film of all time.
Starship Troopers is the greatest war film ever because it’s both jingoistic and anti war at the same time Not sure what my other top ones would be but Dunkirk and Saving Private Ryan are up there
Black Hawk down is one of the more accurate war films made. I didn’t even make it through the first hour of Hurt Locker. No one‘s performance was bad, there was just too much buddy cop dialogue, and it was boring as hell. I definitely don’t feel it deserved the best director award, though I’m glad to see women getting more recognition in the industry. I just don’t think that was the place to do it.
Stalingrad, Das Boot and the great escape are probably my top 3.
Black Hawk Down is pretty solid from the perspective of the combat and the chaos that occurs. Hurt Locker is an inaccurate in many ways, comically so…. but it makes the EOD guys feel good about themselves so… yay If you want something that doesnt “celebrate” soldiers and dwells on their cruelty then watch “Casualties of War” with Michael J Fox and Sean Penn Another illusion-ish but there for entertainment is Sniper with Tom Berenger and Billy Zane
BHD is the best war movie. Can watch it any day
Black Hawk Down hands down. I hate the term 'demo' disc but there is a reason that BHD was released on blu-ray and 4K UHD early on when the formats were first brought out. And look at the cast!!!!! And the francshies/tv series they represented! Ewan McGregor-Star Wars Josh Hartnett - Sin City Eric Bana - Marvel Tom Sizemore - Saving Private Ryan Tom Hardy & William Fichtner - Dark Knight Jason Isaacs - Harry Potter Ewen Bremner - Guy Ritchie flicks Orlando Bloom - LOTR!!!! Ron Eldard - ER Tv series Nikolaj Coster-Waldau - GOT Kim Coates - Sons of Anarchy Jeremy Piven - Entourage Top 3 War Flicks: The Thin Red Line, The Longest Day, Das Boot (went with some no one has mentioned yet)
I've seen Das Boot it's one of my favourites!!! It is crazy how so many great actors were squeezed into that film.
This discussion is wild to me because I thought black hawk down was barely ok when I watched it in theaters. I remember it being so videogamey, with infinite enemies jumping into the fray just to get shot. And I don’t know about apocalypse now. I really wanted to get into it, but the surfing dudes and the crazy cult leader made if feel like a weird movies that happens to take place in the middle of a war. Does that make sense? Anyway, my top 3 are Saving private Ryan Enemy at the gates 1917 I also really like Jarhead, but there’s very little war in it. Most hated 3: Lone survivor (infinite ammo, enemies miss every shot, was shot in a place that doesn’t look like Afghanistan, and felt very disconnected, you could tell most shots were shot separate from each other, in different days. Just horrible, very videogamey) American sniper (super videogamey, very unrealistic. A sniper that doesn’t have a spotter, just leaves his post and does whatever he wanted. I half expected him to get in a helicopter and complete a few helicopter missions) The covenant (same as lone survivor)
I watched apocalypse now for the first time not long ago and I laughed my arse off at Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore because of how silly it was, maybe I laughed so much as I am a fan of money python and it felt very pythonesque however if you have watched any documentaries about the vietnam war you'll know it's really not too far from reality.
Platoon, apocalypse now and come and see. I think black hawk down was disguised as military propaganda. The US military industrial complex has a deep seated relationship with Hollywood and have the power to change and approve scripts as they see fit.
War movies are cringe