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i can look into it! 😊 sounds like an interesting topic and im definitely planning to do more of a deep dive into bitrate in general (i actually have 2 different copies of the same film on 4KBD with different bitrates which i will get to at some point) so adding streaming into the mix isnt a bad idea
>it seems no one has actually go into this amount of detial with this subject.
to be fair, basically all home releases for a title are somewhat locked down and at best you might be able to get some rudimentary stream statistics like bitrate (often only momentary/short term) so for most people the best they can do is just look at it and see if they can tell, which muddies things because of motion and viewing conditions and even TV processing.
>Your analysis is top notch and very thorough btw, you should consider starting a YouTube channel as I'm 100% sure you would be the go to for info with this type of approach :)
thank you! 😊not sure about yt bc i get very camera shy, but i am thinking of posting some video visualisations there (basically the heat/gamut maps but video), although the processing time is a bit intense so we'll see how i do lol
I talked with my priest and he said you are doing the lords work. And that you must make this your life’s work. Eternal life and salvation remains for you (as long as you don’t stop - otherwise it’s hell).
Cheerio
Bro my priest don’t play. He loves his 4Ks too. 🤣😊
On the real: appreciate your posts. No joke - highest quality posts on reddit I’ve ever come across. Great information along with entertainment value.
Cheers 🤝👍
I don't even know where to start.. the level of detail is truly impressive!! I can see people using this reddit post as a basis for their next YouTube video.
I’m literally obsessed with these posts
Quick question: does anyone know why christopher nolan doesn’t implement Dolby Vision on his discs? Oppenheimer opened in Dolby Cinema and it is streaming in Dolby Vision too.
I have watched this movie on different streaming platforms like Peacock, Apple TV, and Amazon Prime. Even the regular 1080p Blu Ray blows them all out of the water. The streaming versions don’t even change aspect ratio for the IMAX portions. For around 25 bucks you can just own the actual movie. I suggest biting the bullet for this one. All of Nolan’s movies benefit *greatly* from physical media. More than any other, I think.
Similarly, I didn't subscribe to /r/hometheater and painstakingly assemble a 7.2.6 system in my basement for 5.1 channels!
Sort of joking, Oppenheimer isn't the type of movie to showcase Atmos anyway. Something like Civil War is going to be incredible though.
im not familiar with the bitrates Prime uses for its 4K content, but you will quite likely see larger bitrate swings as the lower average bitrate attempts to keep up with the image complexity while conserving bits when it can.
Fair enough. From movies that I've been forced to stream, it seems like Amazon is pretty meh. That just happens to be the one that Just watch says if free
brightness and colour gamut measurements are mainly facilitated by DoVi\_Scripts, with some modifications to help with workflow and drag out some additional data
What tool are you using to capture and chart bitrate? I assume you're not manually capturing this data. Also, what bluray drive are you using to capture it?
bitrate analysis is performed by a tool called plotbitrate which can extract the size of each frame and, well, plot it.
my blu-ray drive is an ASUS BW-16D1HT. the data is ripped from the disc to facilitate the in-depth analysis
Stats for nerds! Rock on, good sir.
At first I was a little disappointed with the restrained HDR on this disc. That said it’s hard to fault Nolan for preferring the projected film look. He doesn’t use the extended dynamic range to enhance, only to reproduce (or rather approximate) the 70mm IMAX palette we saw in theaters.
I’d be interested to know (and of course not expecting you to do this work) what extent the bit rate actually has on quality with HEVC. What I mean is that for sure you would expect a higher bit rate to be better quality, but I do cinema encoding stuff for a living with JPEG-2000, and I’ve noticed sometimes I can get even or better quality with a lower bit rate and it’s dependent on the encoder itself. Some encoders attempt to spend more time getting better compression to equal quality. So I always take a bit of grain of salt look at bit rate comparisons and how much space something is taking up, because it’s been an eye opener for me. For example, a 2 hour DCP that I get from outside using something like Colorfront Transkoder is often larger in size (>200 GB) than something I make with easyDCP (~130 GB), but they’re both visually lossless. I don’t feel bad about it being a smaller DCP since the quality difference is not apparent. Just thoughts.
Yeah so bitrate is generally a poor indicator of quality by itself because so many factors contribute to it. The numbers are nice to look at but barely mean anything, 60Mbps is almost always more than enough to be transparent
Typically at such high bitrates, basically all are equalised and there isn't much difference; at lower bitrates you'll usually see brighter scenes because prioritised at the expense of dark scenes because you're more likely to see detail in them.
In this case, the scene is so insanely dark that there is basically no shadow detail. This isn't black crush, the grain is perfectly healthy in those regions; the detail likely never existed in the negative to begin with. And with no details means little complexity and therefore a low bitrate.
I don’t know any technical terms or anything lol. But it was a good movie. Never have been able to watch it in one setting though I’m going to try to do that one weekend though. I bought the 4K disk the first week it was in stores. Great movie but extremely long.
I do hope that my analysis remains somewhat understandable even for those who don't really understand all the numbers lol 😅 do let me know if there are any sections which are completely incomprehensible
Personally I cannot force myself to watch stuff in multiple sittings no matter what which has definitely bit me before for a couple of titles. 3hrs I can do pretty ok because I've had wayy too much practice with LotR but the 5hr 30m Napoleon (1927) basically broke me 🙃
How have they achieved the aspect ratio switching? Is it a 16:9 frame the whole way through and the 2.2 scenes are just letterboxed into it? Or have they found a way to actually change the ratio on a per shot basis so that the black bars aren't apart of the video itself?
I really enjoy these.
When I watched Oppenheimer I had the gut instinct thought that it really didn’t use HDR much, so this is great to see my instincts were right on that. As your analysis shows, the big thing this 4K disc has going for it is the resolution, which probably isn’t noticeably better than the 1080p disc if watched on a 55” or smaller TV. Interesting, then that this 4K disc became such a high demand item with people outside the normal enthusiast crowd. For those with a budget TV that doesn’t handle HDR that well, this disc probably seems better than one with a lot of HDR and WCG usage. I wonder if that’s where a lot of the praise comes from or if it is just the cinematography.
Also, yes, some people read the captions. 😉
while this disc almost certainly is more friendly to less than stellar 4K TVs, id probably place the popularity of its physical release on the film itself.
it was insanely successful with its IMAX run, definitely struck a chord with those into film, and im pretty sure i heard Nolan go on record at some point talking about the physical release and how its the closest thing to a film print you can see at home so i think that just resulted in the 4K disc being quite hyped up in general
Awful film.
That's three duds on the trot from Nolan.
All style over content.
I got very bored of oppenheimer.
I've sold my 4k bluray of tenet and Dunkirk.
The original Dunkirk is vastly superior. Tenet is total drivel.
I've read that Nolan could be making James bond films. More evidence that he's washed up as an innovator.
It happens to very director. Few have made such brilliantly original films as Nolan.
But those days are long gone
Film-based movies just don’t have the natural dynamic range of the modern digital cinema cameras. I love film movies because they look like films usually. I like the digitally-shot movies, too. You can’t have too much HDR if your source isn’t HDR.
This isn't quite true. Film has a range as high as 15 stops, which may not offer quite the same range as some digital offerings these days, but it's not meaningfully far off. You can produce fantastic HDR grades from competent negatives, and there are an endless number of releases demonstrating as much. Bridge on the River Kwai is one of the most extreme examples of this, with Sony pushing the HDR grade up to 10K nits.
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i can look into it! 😊 sounds like an interesting topic and im definitely planning to do more of a deep dive into bitrate in general (i actually have 2 different copies of the same film on 4KBD with different bitrates which i will get to at some point) so adding streaming into the mix isnt a bad idea
[удалено]
>it seems no one has actually go into this amount of detial with this subject. to be fair, basically all home releases for a title are somewhat locked down and at best you might be able to get some rudimentary stream statistics like bitrate (often only momentary/short term) so for most people the best they can do is just look at it and see if they can tell, which muddies things because of motion and viewing conditions and even TV processing. >Your analysis is top notch and very thorough btw, you should consider starting a YouTube channel as I'm 100% sure you would be the go to for info with this type of approach :) thank you! 😊not sure about yt bc i get very camera shy, but i am thinking of posting some video visualisations there (basically the heat/gamut maps but video), although the processing time is a bit intense so we'll see how i do lol
I talked with my priest and he said you are doing the lords work. And that you must make this your life’s work. Eternal life and salvation remains for you (as long as you don’t stop - otherwise it’s hell). Cheerio
bro wut 🤣
Bro my priest don’t play. He loves his 4Ks too. 🤣😊 On the real: appreciate your posts. No joke - highest quality posts on reddit I’ve ever come across. Great information along with entertainment value. Cheers 🤝👍
That's super interesting. Nice work. I'm looking forward to your next one.
I don't even know where to start.. the level of detail is truly impressive!! I can see people using this reddit post as a basis for their next YouTube video.
I’m literally obsessed with these posts Quick question: does anyone know why christopher nolan doesn’t implement Dolby Vision on his discs? Oppenheimer opened in Dolby Cinema and it is streaming in Dolby Vision too.
Out of curiosity, if I streamed this on Amazon Prime Video, what sort of bitrate would I be seeing during the same peaks and valleys?
I have watched this movie on different streaming platforms like Peacock, Apple TV, and Amazon Prime. Even the regular 1080p Blu Ray blows them all out of the water. The streaming versions don’t even change aspect ratio for the IMAX portions. For around 25 bucks you can just own the actual movie. I suggest biting the bullet for this one. All of Nolan’s movies benefit *greatly* from physical media. More than any other, I think.
I own the UHD. I'm not a few grad in and a member of this sub for nothing, lol. I was just curious. I'd be happier with Nolan if he used Atmos.
Yeah I figured. My comment was really for the casual, on-the-fence type of person, I guess. Why Atmos? For the overhead stuff?
Similarly, I didn't subscribe to /r/hometheater and painstakingly assemble a 7.2.6 system in my basement for 5.1 channels! Sort of joking, Oppenheimer isn't the type of movie to showcase Atmos anyway. Something like Civil War is going to be incredible though.
The average bitrate should be around 13 Mbps with peaks around 17 Mbps.
im not familiar with the bitrates Prime uses for its 4K content, but you will quite likely see larger bitrate swings as the lower average bitrate attempts to keep up with the image complexity while conserving bits when it can.
Fair enough. From movies that I've been forced to stream, it seems like Amazon is pretty meh. That just happens to be the one that Just watch says if free
This is so interesting a way of evaluating films. What do you use to measure max brightness and color gamut?
brightness and colour gamut measurements are mainly facilitated by DoVi\_Scripts, with some modifications to help with workflow and drag out some additional data
What tool are you using to capture and chart bitrate? I assume you're not manually capturing this data. Also, what bluray drive are you using to capture it?
bitrate analysis is performed by a tool called plotbitrate which can extract the size of each frame and, well, plot it. my blu-ray drive is an ASUS BW-16D1HT. the data is ripped from the disc to facilitate the in-depth analysis
Stats for nerds! Rock on, good sir. At first I was a little disappointed with the restrained HDR on this disc. That said it’s hard to fault Nolan for preferring the projected film look. He doesn’t use the extended dynamic range to enhance, only to reproduce (or rather approximate) the 70mm IMAX palette we saw in theaters.
I’d be interested to know (and of course not expecting you to do this work) what extent the bit rate actually has on quality with HEVC. What I mean is that for sure you would expect a higher bit rate to be better quality, but I do cinema encoding stuff for a living with JPEG-2000, and I’ve noticed sometimes I can get even or better quality with a lower bit rate and it’s dependent on the encoder itself. Some encoders attempt to spend more time getting better compression to equal quality. So I always take a bit of grain of salt look at bit rate comparisons and how much space something is taking up, because it’s been an eye opener for me. For example, a 2 hour DCP that I get from outside using something like Colorfront Transkoder is often larger in size (>200 GB) than something I make with easyDCP (~130 GB), but they’re both visually lossless. I don’t feel bad about it being a smaller DCP since the quality difference is not apparent. Just thoughts.
Yeah so bitrate is generally a poor indicator of quality by itself because so many factors contribute to it. The numbers are nice to look at but barely mean anything, 60Mbps is almost always more than enough to be transparent
Shouldn’t the bitrate be highest in the darker scenes? Since that’s when compression artifacts are most noticeable?
Typically at such high bitrates, basically all are equalised and there isn't much difference; at lower bitrates you'll usually see brighter scenes because prioritised at the expense of dark scenes because you're more likely to see detail in them. In this case, the scene is so insanely dark that there is basically no shadow detail. This isn't black crush, the grain is perfectly healthy in those regions; the detail likely never existed in the negative to begin with. And with no details means little complexity and therefore a low bitrate.
I don’t know any technical terms or anything lol. But it was a good movie. Never have been able to watch it in one setting though I’m going to try to do that one weekend though. I bought the 4K disk the first week it was in stores. Great movie but extremely long.
I do hope that my analysis remains somewhat understandable even for those who don't really understand all the numbers lol 😅 do let me know if there are any sections which are completely incomprehensible Personally I cannot force myself to watch stuff in multiple sittings no matter what which has definitely bit me before for a couple of titles. 3hrs I can do pretty ok because I've had wayy too much practice with LotR but the 5hr 30m Napoleon (1927) basically broke me 🙃
Yup, you need another hobby. Went full weeb on us lol
How have they achieved the aspect ratio switching? Is it a 16:9 frame the whole way through and the 2.2 scenes are just letterboxed into it? Or have they found a way to actually change the ratio on a per shot basis so that the black bars aren't apart of the video itself?
Uuuh, no Blu-ray only supports 16:9. Any other aspect ratios (switching or constant) are achieved via letter/pillarboxing
Thanks
I really enjoy these. When I watched Oppenheimer I had the gut instinct thought that it really didn’t use HDR much, so this is great to see my instincts were right on that. As your analysis shows, the big thing this 4K disc has going for it is the resolution, which probably isn’t noticeably better than the 1080p disc if watched on a 55” or smaller TV. Interesting, then that this 4K disc became such a high demand item with people outside the normal enthusiast crowd. For those with a budget TV that doesn’t handle HDR that well, this disc probably seems better than one with a lot of HDR and WCG usage. I wonder if that’s where a lot of the praise comes from or if it is just the cinematography. Also, yes, some people read the captions. 😉
while this disc almost certainly is more friendly to less than stellar 4K TVs, id probably place the popularity of its physical release on the film itself. it was insanely successful with its IMAX run, definitely struck a chord with those into film, and im pretty sure i heard Nolan go on record at some point talking about the physical release and how its the closest thing to a film print you can see at home so i think that just resulted in the 4K disc being quite hyped up in general
This post was 210,000 times more entertaining than the movie!
I remember when people actually *experienced* movies.
But… why? Just enjoy the movie
Because I'm bored
Fair enough
Awful film. That's three duds on the trot from Nolan. All style over content. I got very bored of oppenheimer. I've sold my 4k bluray of tenet and Dunkirk. The original Dunkirk is vastly superior. Tenet is total drivel. I've read that Nolan could be making James bond films. More evidence that he's washed up as an innovator. It happens to very director. Few have made such brilliantly original films as Nolan. But those days are long gone
Lmfao
Film-based movies just don’t have the natural dynamic range of the modern digital cinema cameras. I love film movies because they look like films usually. I like the digitally-shot movies, too. You can’t have too much HDR if your source isn’t HDR.
This isn't quite true. Film has a range as high as 15 stops, which may not offer quite the same range as some digital offerings these days, but it's not meaningfully far off. You can produce fantastic HDR grades from competent negatives, and there are an endless number of releases demonstrating as much. Bridge on the River Kwai is one of the most extreme examples of this, with Sony pushing the HDR grade up to 10K nits.