I would have launched my kid into outer space if she did that to an adult. The fact that her mother tacitly encouraged it by doing shit to stop it is, interesting...
When I was a kid, there was a kid at my church who was younger than me (he was about 8 or 9) and had figured out how to pinch people, REALLY HARD. He liked that it made people yelp, and he got to interject himself into situations from behind.
His parents would scold him, take him aside, take things away from him. It didn’t really matter; they couldn’t really stop him.
He pinched my mom, who whipped around and grabbed his arm really hard and said, right in his face, “If you pinch me again, I am going to pinch you back, and you are not going to like it. You’ve been warned.” He looked a little disconcerted and looked at his parents, who just looked back at him silently.
The next week, he was pinching people again, and he pinched my mom. She grabbed him and PINCHED THE SHIT OUT OF HIS ARM. Really hard. Fingernails and all–and she had big, strong hands. He yelped!
And look at his parents, who looked at him levely and said, “She warned you.” and turned their back on him.
That was it. He stopped. He finally understood that it hurt.
But a huge part of it was that his parents didn’t defend him.
You might think Anna would learn from this—but not if the parents defend her.
EDIT: ok, I’ll add the verdict. NTA
Their is something so unbelievably charming about parents who just treat their kids like a normal human. They don’t coddle them and make excuses for them. Just tell them they found out. It’s beautiful
When my son was little, we were a St. Jude family. I finally got tired of some of the shit kids were pulling and asked a parent why she let her kid get away with such crap. Her response was, "What if they die?" My response, "But what if they live? Then you'll have a really crappy kid who thinks they can do whatever they want." I treated my son like he was normal and never have had behavioral problems with him.
I have worked with many parents of kids with chronic illnesses, developmental delays, life threatening illnesses, autism. My standard line is 'when they are adults, no one is going to care what they had to deal with as kids as a reason for why you chose not to teach manners and boundaries, discipline.
A friend of mine who was dying wouldn't correct her little daughter because she didn't want the little girl to have unhappy memories of her mom.
She went from being a sulky, out of control child to being a sulky, immature, obnoxiously self-centered adult. She is absolutely unable to hold down a job or make or keep any relationship. She accepts no boundaries, no rules, and no one wants to be around her.
I consider what her mom did - never saying 'no' to a kid - to be a form of child abuse.
More so child neglect for not performing the duties of a gairdian, but, yeah
I started a fucking war, and I'm slightly proud of myself for it.
Honorable mention to (https://reddit.com/u/SubstantialAttempt18/s/rZEmCSnpqq) for being a voice of reason
The tricky part about being a parent is figuring out when being a kid stops being an excuse. At some point you have to teach them to be functioning humans who understand boundaries and consequences.
12 is way too late to start that process.
As a parent I agree with this to an extent. It’s not just figuring out when “she’s just a kid” - but what situations warrant that. A kid not sitting still is “just a kid” territory but some behaviors aren’t warranted regardless of age and can’t just be explained away. As a parent you need to know when it’s time to step in and sometimes that means removing yourself along with your child. Parents aren’t entitled to continue having the day they want if their kids aren’t behaving.
Exactly this. Some days I get so in my head about not having the day I wanted because one of my kids is being a shit. Then I remember they grow up, and I want them to be good humans. Good humans understand appropriate boundaries and consequences. So I follow through, and there are times when my whole day is ruined because I have to take one home and do that follow through. Bad behavior shouldn’t be ignored, and it sure as hell shouldn’t be rewarded.
It's called consequence based parenting. Explain to the child why the thing that they are doing will not turn out well for them and then if the consequence is an acceptable outcome just let them walk into that consequence.
Part of that is teaching the kid boundaries. It's important to set boundaries, which are if/then statements about your actions (i.e. "If you keep pinching me then I am going to pinch you and you will not enjoy that." or "If you keep screaming we're going to leave the park and go home.") and act on those boundaries when they trigger them.
My son and daughter-in-law are using this method with their two year old, and I’ve got say he is one of the most well mannered, sweet and fun loving little ones I’ve been around in a long time
Indeed. I talk to my 6 year old daughter like she's an adult and if something doesn't make sense I break it down and she'll tell me she understands. She's so well behaved, I feel very lucky, especially because Mom and I aren't together but we get along fine. She's always had great comprehension skills so that helps.
I also explain why I say yes to things and why I say no. She might be a child but she's not an idiot. Too many folks treat kids like they're subhuman. I just think back to when I was a kid and go from there. I'm not exactly like my parents but there are certain values I adhere to.
I have a family member who coddled their kid, and nothing was ever their fault. None of the other kids wanted to play with that kid. They didn't even want them coming to their parties. My young adult kid had a bday party this year and invited all their cousins and friends except that one kid, also a young adult. Even now the cousins rarely hang out with them.
My husband has a cousin like that. I've never met him though because he's usually in jail or some nonsense whenever we have visited that side of the family.
You’ll like my mom then. Heard a story of her recently. When I was a kid, I liked playing with cans of food. My mom told the babysitter: “if she wants to play with the cans, let her. If she drops one on her toenails, she’ll learn to stop”. Ok then😂
My closest friends raise their kid like this! It’s a joy to watch. Little guy just sort of bops around and charges headfirst into life, and they mostly shrug and observe from a distance (within reason, obviously).
i mean they are better than the neglectful parents who don't do anything but then get upset when someone else disciplines their kids, but at the end of the day if other people are having to teach your children about consequences you are failing.
Sometimes it takes a village.
Had a situation where a busker had to let us know about something our eldest daughter did on the other side of playground at a diner as we sat with friends. We could see her, but just assumed she was listening to the musician. He was embarrassed and hesitant to bring it up, but if he hadn't my daughter would have gotten away with some very stupid behaviors (throwing trash/pebbles at/near the busker)
Luckily he did, and she received our version of the SMU death penalty at the beginning of the summer.
I don't think we're failing, but of course we were embarrassed in front of our friends. Took the night from a fun evening in the summer twilight to consequences for choices.
Yeah these are the only scenarios I'm comfortable with someone hurting a kid; if that kid is actively and maliciously causing pain/harm to others, and repeated warnings/punishments aren't helping, sometimes they need to understand exactly what it is they are doing to other people/animals.
I've heard it said that up to a certain age, children are like little sociopaths who can't understand that other beings are alive and aware in the same way they are. Good parents help their children unlock compassion in whatever way works.
It doesn't help when adults just grin and bear it because "he's just playing". He'll never learn he's actually hurting like that.
I didn't have to be slapped back, all it took was my dad making a sad face and saying "ow, that hurt!" and I learned better. Re-used it with my niece who bit me, I acted sad and went to put cold water on it and told her if she was mean I wouldn't play with her anymore.
Exactly.
We do this with my daughter if she doesn’t listen about something we let her learn the consequences of her actions. I’d rather her learn now then later.
I was biting people when I was six and one time my mom bit me back. I honestly think that's a fine punishment for a kid. Do the very action they're doing to other people to show what it's like.
One time my kid was hanging out with his shitty little cousins a lot and *mysteriously* got into this slapping phase where he thought it was HILARIOUS to smack people in the face. Not hard, he was like 5 or 6, but still shocking and it stung every time it happened. I told him multiple times to not slap people, took stuff away, etc and he'd always get right back to it when he came back from their house. I eventually told him if he did it again someone might hit him back and he wouldn't find it funny.
So he smacked me, laughing, and I slapped him right back. Not full force, but enough to wipe the smile off his face. The look of shock and teary eyed... ness... on his face was heartbreaking but what would have been even moreso was him doing it to the wrong person and getting beat the fuck up or worse.
Never slapped anyone again. Sometimes they just have to put their hand on the burner, so to speak...
My kid tried this and bit me, and I asked him how he’d feel if I bit him back, or someone else bit him, would it hurt? He shrugged, and tested it out by biting himself on his arm, of course he didn’t bite himself as hard as he bit me, so he said it didn’t hurt, I told him let me try, he ran away before I could show him, we no longer have a biter.
When I was a kid this was my brothers thing. I still have a scar from one of the bites. My mom finally told me to bite him back, I didn't want to at first but I finally got tired of him. His little ass let out a scream and went straight into tears. But he never bit anyone again.
Sometimes they gotta learn the hard way. I had a brief stint as a biter when I was around 3 or 4. And I mean BRIEF. My mom said I only bit her once and that was all it took. She bit me back (just hard enough to get the point across.) Never did it again and stopped me from trying other forms of hurting people.
Exactly. I have three cousins all under 10. They would never be allowed to hit adults over and over like this. If they do play fight, it's an uncle instigating it. It sucks that coffee stains clothes but Heather should have thought of that before she didn't take the swatters away herself. FAFO. I never invite them back until THEY apologize.
NTA
I have 3 kids. One swat to an adult would have been cause for being sent away or time out. Doing it again would be packing up the car and going home. We have little tolerance for being physical (outside of play) with other kids. We have zero tolerance for hitting adults.
If that was my aunt or uncle back when I was 12 then my ass would’ve been in the lake. NTA. I messed around and found out as a kid and, luckily, it was my Dad who knew when to stop. If it had been some stranger dealing with this little girl and not someone who cares a modicum about her safety… just saying.
The asshole here is his brother. If my brother called my wife “a cunt” he’d be picking up his teeth in a dust pan.
None of my husband's brothers ever would have called me that, even IF they thought it about me, but hypothetically, they'd KNOW before saying it that they're about to be in a serious fight. You don't call your brother's wife a cunt UNLESS you're hoping to get your teeth knocked out
As that uncle, play fighting is fine. But shut it down if it gets too crazy or if the parents say so. But if they are acting out like this my response is bear hug pick em up and drop them at their parents and make it clear "that is not acceptable/ok and you need some time out/away from people."
I am also that uncle. I was also a former pro MMA fighter so my nephews go HARD trying to win. They have been for like 10 years and now they're hitting puberty and are in their teens so I can go a little harder on them now. We had a 3v1 on a recent family reunion and my cousin's got upset that I threw one of them across the room while he was laughing his ass off. But when they say stop you gotta stop.
Those are some of my fondest memories growing up. Just being launched out of the pool or tossed into a snow pile by one of the adults. I'm pretty sure my parents loved it because it results in a tired child. Growing up, I did the same with my little cousins, but it was at the height of shaken baby syndrome scare in the 90s, so it didn't last long. When the parents say stop, you gotta stop.
If it's me and my spouse who own the place, kid and mom are getting ejected the first time coffee is spilled. I can't believe anyone put up with this as long as they did. None of these people should be invited back.
We had a neighbor kid who sometimes hit me. According to my kids, they apparently also were given unlimited sweets and drew on the walls. We decided our kids were not allowed to play over there anymore.
>I never invite them back until THEY apologize.
I hire a large beach house for 4 weeks over the Christmas break (summer here) and it has room to sleep 17. My brother brings his family and my sister used to bring hers. Her kids are little shits, and I had to use my Dad voice once at 9 am (!) and took her aside to let her know that her kids are making my holiday stressful. She and hers were not allowed to return the following years until they learned how to behave.
5 years of the quietest, most fun filled holidays and counting.
You’re on to something there. It’s almost like Heather tacitly approved of her daughter’s behaviour. Probably jealous of OP’s wife and was being a passive aggressive see-you-next-Tuesday by allowing her daughter to behave like a feral animal.
Superbad parents like this usually flip out if the kid does it to them, but carry on as normal when the kid pesters everyone else nonstop. It's why the kid always goes for company and their kids, not their own parents.
Yeah, that’s a good point - bet Heather doesn’t like OP’s wife and Anna knows that, which is why Anna was so confident when it came to abusing OP’s wife and why Heather did nothing to stop her.
My grandmother never liked my great aunt. I mean really disliked. Did I ever step out of line with my great aunt?. Hell no. Hell would have rained down. I knew it was between them. Plus my great aunt seemed ok with me though I wasn't close to her.
No doubt. She must have thought it was "cute" it isn't. My kid would not have been even allowed to hang out with adults. Heather needs to learn to parent.
I once almost got knocked over by a small child running around at a restaurant. I was standing in line behind the kid's mom, and he came barreling past me, bonking me in my bad knee as he did so. You see, he had a very important appointment to press face against and repeatedly lick the door to the restaurant patio.
I loudly said, "Excuse me!" and the mom turned around and said, "He is a child," in the snottiest tone imaginable. I immediately shot back, "You are a parent," in the exact same snotty tone. Shockingly, she didn't have a response to that, but she did get her food to-go.
In December this year I was somewhere with a revolving door and there were 3 kids that kept going round and round... counted 6 times while I was waiting to get out of the store. I tried twice to step up so I could exit and the kids would just keep shouting to go around again. I was mildly perturbed and then the mother said "Come on, time to go. Some people weren't ever kids and didn't have fun."
I said back "some people just aren't parents", she didn't like that very much.
I was working when I had a similar response..
Pre closing, cleaning and an elementary age girl walked by touching the glass as she went along. I said, “sweetie, please don’t touch the glass, I just cleaned it.” I added the sweetie so it would be more of a teaching moment than attacking.
Mom said not to tell her daughter anything. Idk what over came me, but I forgot about customer service, and snapped back “well if you would have told her something, I wouldn’t have had to, would I?”
Cusses and yells at me as she leaves the store.. The middle school/teen looking girl, look embarrassed, and the elementary girl looked scared. I just stared at them, wondering if I was going to get fired the next day.
Op and wife are NTA. I was actually raised and not let wild.
Seriously. I had a friend in middle school who was relentlessly bullied by one little asshole. No one ever did anything, and his step-father (a cop) eventually told him to just stand up for himself the next time the kid tried getting physical with him and his parents would support him if he got in trouble.
My friend took this advice to heart, and I’ll never forget seeing it happen.
One day after lunch the asshole kid snuck up behind my friend and swatted him in the side of the head with his binder. Friend clenched his fist, tears in his eyes because he’s just so sick of this shit, then swung around and threw a blind punch at the kid. It wasn’t a calculated move at all, but the punch just happened to connect with the kids jaw.
The kid went down and immediately grabbed his face and started wailing, and when he looked up there was blood *everywhere*. My friend started yelling at him, his voice breaking due to emotional overload, “I told you to leave me the fuck *alone!*”
Asshole left school in an ambulance with a broken jaw and lacerations in his lower lip from where his teeth dug in. Friend got taken to the principal’s office and was picked up by his stepdad (in a cop car) who had a written log of every time the asshole bullied my friend (and pictures of the bruises the asshole had left on him) and chewed the administration out for doing absolutely nothing about it.
In the end both the asshole and my friend had week long suspensions for fighting, but no charges were filed towards my friend outside of school. Don’t know how the asshole’s parents responded, but I know they had a long sit down with my friend’s parents who reamed them out for raising such a little dickhead.
My friend returned after his suspension was over with a broken wrist. The asshole returned many weeks later, after his jaw was no longer sewn shut (according to the rumors at least; I don’t know if actually needed to be sewn shut). The kicker is that since my friend left in a cop car and the asshole left in an ambulance, and neither person returned to school for awhile after, everyone thought my friend had killed the asshole with his punch and gotten arrested. My friend had a reputation as a badass when he returned after his suspension, which is hilarious because he was a skinny emo kid who wanted nothing to do with violence under normal circumstances.
When the asshole kid finally returned to school he had lost his asshole tendencies and stopped being a little shit to everyone. Turns out consequences *do* teach kids not to be dicks!
So yeah. A literal example of parents (and school officials) not disciplining their child leading to said child receiving a broken jaw. Cold coffee is a much better way to learn not to be a little asshole than getting decked in the face.
Dude had months worth of built up resentment from daily bullying, all channeled through a single wild punch. He literally put his entire body into it when he twisted around.
I don’t know if I explained it well enough, but he was building momentum before he could even see the asshole who smacked him with the binder. I can remember it in slow motion, seeing my friend get smacked, go still for a second, then clench his fists, rotate right, then swing back left all the way around to hit the asshole. His arm swung so far during the punch it was almost like he whipped his jaw with his fist more than he actually punched him.
My grandfather showed us how to cold cock someone very much like that; using your whole body to put momentum behind the swing ideally using bother hands clasped together aiming for their nose, and give it a solid golf swing. Obviously you don’t start a fight like that but I can tell you for real you can end one that way.
Zero tolerance policies. In most (maybe all?) US schools there’s a zero tolerance policy for violence, so those who defend themselves from physical bullying often receive the same punishment as the bully. It makes no sense, and basically takes away a kid’s ability to protect himself since there’s no differentiation between the aggressor and the defender.
It’s disgustingly common for kids to get physically bullied for prolonged lengths of time, then get in trouble when they finally defend themselves after realizing their teachers/school officials won’t do anything about it. It’s silly because the kids get in trouble for fighting when the only other option is *not* to fight and continue getting bullied while (for whatever strange reason) their bullies are seldom disciplined for picking on them before they inevitably retaliate.
Yeah this happened to me. I had this kid bully me for six months and he even showed up at my doorstep threatening me. Then one day I beat him up and I GOT 5 DAYS SUSPENSION WTF.
My son got jumped by a kid at school, and because my son was short I guess the kid thought he was an easy mark.
My son beat the holy living hell out of him and when the resource officer came , my son told him he wanted to press charges. Fortunately there was another teacher watching the whole escapade.
The resource officer did arrest the kid. The school has a zero tolerance policy, but my son got no consequences at all. I was surprised.
I was told my kids, if someone else starts it, you finish it. I’ll take care of administration.
>It's scary how parents will allow their children to become disasters and somehow willfully ignore them getting worse.
So true, and they're doing the child no favors. Adult life has consequences, and a child should understand that early in life. "Parents" not giving their own children these important life lessons is a tragedy.
Nanny here, and as much as I want to say that your wife should’ve held her temper, fuck that dude. NTA.
You told the child to stop multiple times. Told the parents to take a hold of their child multiple times. Anyone with fucking eyes would see how mad someone would be getting after this continued on and on. And on top of it, your wife gave a final warning, saying, “*either get your kid the fuck out of here or I’m going to lose my shit*:”
Everyone getting their panties in a twist has obviously never dealt with trouble kids and effective parenting with disciplinary actions.
Heather and your brother need to learn how to take care of their demon spawn and once they understand how awful their child behaves, maybe you guys can rekindle your relationship.
I would have took the fly swatter and hit your brother gf with saying there is a fly on you.
If you don't like sort your kid out.
Personally I'd ban them from ever stepping foot on my property ever again.
The kid assaulted you wife so many times whilst her mum stood by and let her and your brother did jack shit.
She's lucky she didn't get a smack.
My wife did ban them from the property. If she hadn't, I would have. It sucks because Heathers boys are damn good kids and are being essentially punished for their sister and moms poor behavior but it is what it is.
When my sister was in her "FAFO" phase, so like ages 4-6, she got us both removed from what turned out to be the last birthday party I was ever invited to. The Mom had invited all the kids in our class, and any other siblings. She had been cut off from sugary drinks, and already threatened with time out or a quick correcting car visit. She was a bit sugar mad, and then just straight up certifiable. I was in the bouncy house, when I hear her name, a line of 'Nonono", a loud crash and then gut-wrenching screaming. She had swiped some candy from another kid, my Mom saw, and was calling her to come to her side, because it was car correction time. My sister knew this, so she decided to go out with a bang, and took off running across the yard. She then dragged the punch bowl down on herself, trying to recreate that tablecloth gag for maximum damage or something. It was very cold and sticky, hence the screaming.
I'd never seen my Mom so angry. She had stripped my sister down in the car, and wrapped her in a dog towel. My sister wouldn't stop crying. The anger was rolling off my Mom in silent waves, as she drove slowly home, letting my sister stew while she probably weighed the pros and cons of just straight up murder. My Dad took me out for ice cream because it wasn't my fault.
What sucks is because of your sisters behavior, you were then punished for the remainder of your childhood. *"Can't invite him, what if he brings the sister along again.... Did you hear the punch bowl story?"*
I took the kiddo to a birthday party and one of the little girls there was just... oh, man. I feel for those parents.
We all just sort of grinned and bore it while she ran around throwing dirt at people, stealing presents, and wailing anytime someone tried to slow her roll.
Then she tried to grab a large tray of wings just out of the oven.
The lady removing the wings roughly and immediately grabbed her hand to avoid a trip to the ER and the kid just started screaming. I mean full on, open mouth, head to the sky, eyes rolled back scream-crying.
We all froze, not sure WTF - did she get burned? did the woman hit her? stung by a bee?
It was like a bad teen movie in slow motion: the mom sprinting, in kitten heels, towards the food area while The Spice Girls assured us we'd all need to be friends before we could be lovers. Dad whirling, beer droplets hovering in midair. Lady with wings overbalancing, holding the tray one-handed while trying not to drop 415 degrees of Frank's Red Hot onto self or child.
And, finally, child, still screeching, turning to the food items in her reach since the wings are still on high. Child grabbing and pulling a table runner, upending the three open bottles of wine, some beers. Chips spraying everywhere. Table collapsing. Meemaw's potato salad learning to fly.
Kid managed to pull the entire table down, soaking everything with spilled soda / wine / beer. She was fine, if covered in soggy chips and salsa. Lady with the wings managed to pivot and dump them behind her, losing the lot in the grass but somehow not burning anyone.
We managed to salvage some of the food, ordered pizza, and somebody went out on a grocery run for more beer. The hosting couple cracked open their wine fridge (lol, a *wine fridge,* what even is my life at this point).
At some point during the cleanup the family with the mess tornado slunk off and I never saw them again at any BBQ.
NTA. If my kids are misbehaving and not following directions/rules, we’re going home. I’m not going to put my friends/family through that, and I’m not going to deal with that in public.
Agreed, having coffee spilled 2 times. Getting smacked by the fly swatter consistently. After the first warning, everything after that was just malicious on the kid and her parents part
The first coffee spill of anyone's would have been the limit. I grew up that you don't waste food or something that someone made and would have been in a LOT of trouble just swatting the fly swatter around like that. I've been told I have a good "mom voice" and it would have definitely come out. You're in my space you're getting parented by me if yours isn't doing shit.
Same here. My kids and all their friends get quiet quickly when my Mom voice comes out. It usually works on their dead beat parents too which can be annoying because I feel like I'm parenting them AND their brat at that point.
Doesn’t this sound really developmentally late too? I know that the ol’ “bug on your face” trick is the oldest in the book, but wouldn’t that be closer to appropriate for, say, a 6 year old?
Oh she's expelled. She was expelled last year for bullying, after having 3 ISS's in a row. But Heather blamed the school. Said her kid was just "defending herself". So, no discipline there either.
I would have long given up on getting the “parent” to step up. It would have been a my house, my rules situation where, after first slap of adult with a swatter, I’d have taken it away, told her to go outside of the home to play, and not come back in until told to. If she looked to her mom, I’d have said don’t look at her, she’s not in charge, I am. My house. Or you can continue, and then your whole family must go. Just keep looking at her, blocking view of mom. Anyone bitches, they can go too.
This kid is going to meet her match...she will be in trouble with law enforcement soon... mom is going to be at alot of court hearings she sounds clueless
Or, she'll meet someone who reacts worse than dumping cool coffee. We had a few kids like this in middle school, then we all went to the regional highschool. They learned to keep their hands to themselves when the kids who had finished puberty hit back.
Surprisingly, my brother actually told Heather to not say that about my wife. He was down my wife's throat but he wasn't okay with her calling my wife that. So I thought that was pretty cool.
Maybe send this post to your brother so he can maybe see what he’s tied himself to. Might wake him up and get him out before he gets stuck with this woman and her awful daughter permanently
The kid and her mum should be great full that it was a cold coffee, not a hot one. I would have dumped it on the kid a lot earlier.
Kids mum needs to grow up and parent her child, before she ends up in jail, with mummy dearest saying she doesn’t deserve this.
Maybe see if your brother can convince devil mum and evil spawn to some counselling.
The only immature cunt in this situation is Heather for not parenting her child. Fuck her and honestly, fuck your brother too for not doing anyrhing either. Tell your wife to throw a cinder block next time, it's more effective
Good for you. In our family, camp is a privilege and it has to be earned. Take it for granted or don't follow the camp rules and you lose that privilege.
Yup. I missed the ages at the beginning. I’d expected it to be a 2-3 year old, not a 12 year old. I would have snatched the flyswatter and swatted her with it. Hard. 12 years old is old enough to know better, and old enough to know it’s not so funny when she’s the one who gets hurt.
NTA This is a case of mess around and find out.
Your wife had already point blank told Heather and your brother to deal with Anna. She persisted in her annoying and disrespectful behavior. She actually struck your wife with the fly swatter and (presumably) stained her clothes with the intentionally spilled coffee.
Anna should not be allowed to act that way under any circumstances, but especially not as a guest at an event someone is hosting. Your brother and Heather were just as responsible since they did nothing to correct Anna's behavior or deliver consequences that would teach her the lesson and prevent her from continuing the behavior.
Your wife stood up for herself and delivered non-harmful consequences (since it was cold coffee) to Anna by giving her a taste of how her own behavior effects others. I don't think she has anything to apologize for.
Heather and her children should be banned from any future events unless Anna is excluded or her behavior improves. No one in your family should have to put up with that. Anna is almost a teenager, not a toddler, so the excuse that she's just a kid doesn't work. There is no excuse for her behavior.
No one outside of your family would come close to tolerating Anna's shenanigans. She will be hurt socially if does this with her peers. It's better she learn this lesson now than struggle having friends because she annoys everyone.
Yeah. Hot coffee would’ve been bad, obviously, but dousing the kid in cold coffee was just a taste of her own medicine. She’s 12, she’s old enough to know better.
Agreed except I think Heather should also be banned for the way she talked to OP's wife. Unless she apologizes first, I don't think she should be allowed back near them at all. Just the boys and the brother at this point (IF the brother wasn't the one to call her an "immature c%£t. Although I'm guessing that was the mother).
NTA.
Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think your wife is amazing.
Your brother and especially Heather are the ones to blame. They should be apologizing for the kid's behavior.
This definitely sounds like a parenting-problem.
NTA
Anna was smacking your wife with a fly swatter. Does Heather have any idea how much those things hurt?! My grandma used to use fly swatters as what she called "a shitty kiddie beater". If I played up, I got the fly swatter.
Them fucking things *really* hurt! Heather and Mack need to control their daughter and stop allowing her to behave that way.
As another Redditor suggested, continue to invite the boys, leave the rest out. Maybe Heather and Mack should stop being Anna's friends and start acting like her parents
I think that's why my wife's reaction was so extreme. She used to get beat with fly swatters and "switches" (wood that she had to pick out herself to get beat with). It's why she doesn't have/want children. It's why I got a vasectomy when I realized we were on the same page. So Anna hitting my wife repeatedly with the swatter, after she had been told to stop.. it wasn't a good scene. My wife did try getting Heather to step in before that point but no dice so it is what it is.
Honestly your wife’s reaction was *far* from extreme when you factor in how much shit she took before she snapped. Children get 1(one) single chance to smack me with something, followed by stern words. The second time and their ass is going back to their parents who are willing to tolerate it, and off my property where I will not.
I was at a friends house and their 3ish year old daughter smacked my phone with a glow stick. I said in a stern voice "No ma'am we don't do that" and she apologized. Perfectly appropriate and she wasn't going to do it again. I nipped it in the bud right then.
Then her dad asked what happened and started seriously yelling at her. I was over it, she apologized, dad needed to calm tf down.
I think you and your wife needed to be a \*lot\* more firm with your brother.
At the second swat, all adult conversation stops. The flyswatter is removed from the child. You and your wife now explicitly and directly talk to your brother and his girlfriend about how this is not ok, and that the consequence of a third swat is that they will be sent home.
I'm sorry you're having to parent your brother and his girlfriend, especially when you've both explicitly decided \*not\* to be parents to any one, but apparently that's what they needed: boundaries and consequences.
Your wife used to get hit with wood?! Like... Twigs or actual logs of wood? Either way, that's terrible and I'm sorry for your wife having to go through that. I used to babysit the severely autistic brother of a girl who was like Anna in a lot of ways, minus the hitting me because she knew better than that. But just like Anna, at 12 years old, this girl was throwing tantrums and just being a nuisance in general. She used to mess with my laptop while I was using it because she thought it was funny. (I was applying for jobs at the time. The babysitting was just so I could make some money to keep me afloat until I found one).
Anna needs to start facing consequences for her actions. She now knows that if she messes with your wife, she gets the cold coffee. May be a harsh and "abusive" punishment in some people's eyes, but hitting your wife with a fly swatter is also abusive behavior coming from someone who's old enough to know better
It was generally a twig but she did say that she was hit with a full piece of firewood at one point because her father and grandfather made the kids pick out their own piece of wood to get beat with and she ended up choosing a bigger piece at one point, thinking it would hurt less.
This is common in some places. I had a SO from W.Virginia and this was standard parenting practice. And yea, if you chose one that broke you’d have to go get another or worse, the POS dad would go find one himself.
My understanding is that a switch is like a tree branch. It's still sort of bendy because it's newer than other branches, so it's used to hit people. My dad used to get hit with a switch when he was a kid, and if they picked an older one that wasn't as bendy, they would be hit with it until it broke and then they had to get a new one that was right.
" No, my wife shouldn't have had to remove herself from the equation when it's our property and everything was on our dime."
**10/10**
" My brother and his sorry excuse of a mom GF should have corrected the issue from the beginning."
**10/10**
" Just a quick add: it is NOT my wife's job to set an example, like some of you are saying. We are kid free for a reason."
**11/10**
I love this post.
CAN'T believe people are stating this one's a tough one.
OP's wife was repeatedly struck in the head with something used to smash bugs. was there not dog poop available?!?!
Your place, your rules, and wife even gave warnings, when frankly - none should have been needed.
Not to mention the kid responsible is 12. At that age, the kid should know that running around hitting people in the face is a really bloody stupid thing to do.
only thing OP's wife's AH for, is for NOT dumping it on kids' mom.
Op can make the mom a deal. of COURSE they're welcome again. BUT... every time your daughter strikes someone or spills on someone, that individual will get to mirror the behavior, but on the mom. Then sell tickets. everyone wins!!!!!!!
NTA. Fuck around and find out. Throw coffee on other people and have coffee thrown on you. Anna assaulted your wife multiple times, she is lucky all she got was cold coffee on her. Your brother and Heather are AHs for not putting a stop to this.
”I don’t know why she acts like that.” BECAUSE SHE CAN!
As a child I loved pulling small pranks on people that my dad enjoyed too. Once a guy threw his cup full of beer on me after I jump scared him. He didn't apologize and when I went crying to my mom she laughed and told me that's what consequences are and that I risked this happening by harassing that guy. Now I know better but it sounds like Anna is very troubled and not getting proper parenting. I feel bad for her but apologizing only makes it worse. She should remember this instance for a long time just like I do.
On the *forehead*??
Look, on the shoes, a pant leg, *maybe* a bare leg, the flyswatter thing is an annoyance. A big annoyance by the 3d or 4th time, but still just annoying.
In the face? I’d have had a very hard time not slapping both Mack and Heather upside the head with a “shit, missed the fly!”
I would've pulled the scattered and swatted her a few times with it. I read coffee and immediately thought of hot coffee not iced so I was fully prepared to say she was the asshole. But not an asshole at all!
NTA at all. You and your wife showed much more restraint than I would have.
I would have told them to leave as soon as she spilled coffee #2. Then banned them.
I've written family off before and everyone knows that I am dead serious when I say to stop fucking with me.
Your wife handled this very well. Kudos. A coffee spill is well deserved.
The YTA and ESH folks are obviously bad parents who think their children are the main characters and can do no wrong. Don't listen to them. You and your wife are awesome.
I would have launched my kid into outer space if she did that to an adult. The fact that her mother tacitly encouraged it by doing shit to stop it is, interesting...
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"That's it Anna! Back ya go" as she starts stuffing her between her moms legs
When I was a kid, there was a kid at my church who was younger than me (he was about 8 or 9) and had figured out how to pinch people, REALLY HARD. He liked that it made people yelp, and he got to interject himself into situations from behind. His parents would scold him, take him aside, take things away from him. It didn’t really matter; they couldn’t really stop him. He pinched my mom, who whipped around and grabbed his arm really hard and said, right in his face, “If you pinch me again, I am going to pinch you back, and you are not going to like it. You’ve been warned.” He looked a little disconcerted and looked at his parents, who just looked back at him silently. The next week, he was pinching people again, and he pinched my mom. She grabbed him and PINCHED THE SHIT OUT OF HIS ARM. Really hard. Fingernails and all–and she had big, strong hands. He yelped! And look at his parents, who looked at him levely and said, “She warned you.” and turned their back on him. That was it. He stopped. He finally understood that it hurt. But a huge part of it was that his parents didn’t defend him. You might think Anna would learn from this—but not if the parents defend her. EDIT: ok, I’ll add the verdict. NTA
Their is something so unbelievably charming about parents who just treat their kids like a normal human. They don’t coddle them and make excuses for them. Just tell them they found out. It’s beautiful
When my son was little, we were a St. Jude family. I finally got tired of some of the shit kids were pulling and asked a parent why she let her kid get away with such crap. Her response was, "What if they die?" My response, "But what if they live? Then you'll have a really crappy kid who thinks they can do whatever they want." I treated my son like he was normal and never have had behavioral problems with him.
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I have worked with many parents of kids with chronic illnesses, developmental delays, life threatening illnesses, autism. My standard line is 'when they are adults, no one is going to care what they had to deal with as kids as a reason for why you chose not to teach manners and boundaries, discipline.
A friend of mine who was dying wouldn't correct her little daughter because she didn't want the little girl to have unhappy memories of her mom. She went from being a sulky, out of control child to being a sulky, immature, obnoxiously self-centered adult. She is absolutely unable to hold down a job or make or keep any relationship. She accepts no boundaries, no rules, and no one wants to be around her. I consider what her mom did - never saying 'no' to a kid - to be a form of child abuse.
More so child neglect for not performing the duties of a gairdian, but, yeah I started a fucking war, and I'm slightly proud of myself for it. Honorable mention to (https://reddit.com/u/SubstantialAttempt18/s/rZEmCSnpqq) for being a voice of reason
I just wanted to say that I like the “when my son was little”. I’m glad you’re just a regular family now.
He's 38 and intellectually disabled, living in his own apartment, and very social.
The tricky part about being a parent is figuring out when being a kid stops being an excuse. At some point you have to teach them to be functioning humans who understand boundaries and consequences. 12 is way too late to start that process.
As a parent I agree with this to an extent. It’s not just figuring out when “she’s just a kid” - but what situations warrant that. A kid not sitting still is “just a kid” territory but some behaviors aren’t warranted regardless of age and can’t just be explained away. As a parent you need to know when it’s time to step in and sometimes that means removing yourself along with your child. Parents aren’t entitled to continue having the day they want if their kids aren’t behaving.
Exactly this. Some days I get so in my head about not having the day I wanted because one of my kids is being a shit. Then I remember they grow up, and I want them to be good humans. Good humans understand appropriate boundaries and consequences. So I follow through, and there are times when my whole day is ruined because I have to take one home and do that follow through. Bad behavior shouldn’t be ignored, and it sure as hell shouldn’t be rewarded.
Fucking exactly. It really is difficult to punish them when it means punishing yourself and maybe their siblings too. It's really hard
Great job being a good parent. It may feel thankless but know we all appreciate it, and know that your kiddos will be better citizens later.
> It may feel thankless Yeah, hardly anybody notices a random well-behaved kid out and about. But we *sure as shit* notice the bad ones.
It's called consequence based parenting. Explain to the child why the thing that they are doing will not turn out well for them and then if the consequence is an acceptable outcome just let them walk into that consequence. Part of that is teaching the kid boundaries. It's important to set boundaries, which are if/then statements about your actions (i.e. "If you keep pinching me then I am going to pinch you and you will not enjoy that." or "If you keep screaming we're going to leave the park and go home.") and act on those boundaries when they trigger them.
I never knew there was a name! I call it fuck around and find out parenting.
My son and daughter-in-law are using this method with their two year old, and I’ve got say he is one of the most well mannered, sweet and fun loving little ones I’ve been around in a long time
Indeed. I talk to my 6 year old daughter like she's an adult and if something doesn't make sense I break it down and she'll tell me she understands. She's so well behaved, I feel very lucky, especially because Mom and I aren't together but we get along fine. She's always had great comprehension skills so that helps. I also explain why I say yes to things and why I say no. She might be a child but she's not an idiot. Too many folks treat kids like they're subhuman. I just think back to when I was a kid and go from there. I'm not exactly like my parents but there are certain values I adhere to.
My mom was good for this. She would present the warning and then let Karma handle the rest.
I have a family member who coddled their kid, and nothing was ever their fault. None of the other kids wanted to play with that kid. They didn't even want them coming to their parties. My young adult kid had a bday party this year and invited all their cousins and friends except that one kid, also a young adult. Even now the cousins rarely hang out with them.
My husband has a cousin like that. I've never met him though because he's usually in jail or some nonsense whenever we have visited that side of the family.
You’ll like my mom then. Heard a story of her recently. When I was a kid, I liked playing with cans of food. My mom told the babysitter: “if she wants to play with the cans, let her. If she drops one on her toenails, she’ll learn to stop”. Ok then😂
My closest friends raise their kid like this! It’s a joy to watch. Little guy just sort of bops around and charges headfirst into life, and they mostly shrug and observe from a distance (within reason, obviously).
"Hey, I'm just here to prevent disfiguring injuries."
i mean they are better than the neglectful parents who don't do anything but then get upset when someone else disciplines their kids, but at the end of the day if other people are having to teach your children about consequences you are failing.
Sometimes it takes a village. Had a situation where a busker had to let us know about something our eldest daughter did on the other side of playground at a diner as we sat with friends. We could see her, but just assumed she was listening to the musician. He was embarrassed and hesitant to bring it up, but if he hadn't my daughter would have gotten away with some very stupid behaviors (throwing trash/pebbles at/near the busker) Luckily he did, and she received our version of the SMU death penalty at the beginning of the summer. I don't think we're failing, but of course we were embarrassed in front of our friends. Took the night from a fun evening in the summer twilight to consequences for choices.
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Yeah these are the only scenarios I'm comfortable with someone hurting a kid; if that kid is actively and maliciously causing pain/harm to others, and repeated warnings/punishments aren't helping, sometimes they need to understand exactly what it is they are doing to other people/animals.
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I've heard it said that up to a certain age, children are like little sociopaths who can't understand that other beings are alive and aware in the same way they are. Good parents help their children unlock compassion in whatever way works.
It doesn't help when adults just grin and bear it because "he's just playing". He'll never learn he's actually hurting like that. I didn't have to be slapped back, all it took was my dad making a sad face and saying "ow, that hurt!" and I learned better. Re-used it with my niece who bit me, I acted sad and went to put cold water on it and told her if she was mean I wouldn't play with her anymore.
Exactly. We do this with my daughter if she doesn’t listen about something we let her learn the consequences of her actions. I’d rather her learn now then later.
I was biting people when I was six and one time my mom bit me back. I honestly think that's a fine punishment for a kid. Do the very action they're doing to other people to show what it's like.
One time my kid was hanging out with his shitty little cousins a lot and *mysteriously* got into this slapping phase where he thought it was HILARIOUS to smack people in the face. Not hard, he was like 5 or 6, but still shocking and it stung every time it happened. I told him multiple times to not slap people, took stuff away, etc and he'd always get right back to it when he came back from their house. I eventually told him if he did it again someone might hit him back and he wouldn't find it funny. So he smacked me, laughing, and I slapped him right back. Not full force, but enough to wipe the smile off his face. The look of shock and teary eyed... ness... on his face was heartbreaking but what would have been even moreso was him doing it to the wrong person and getting beat the fuck up or worse. Never slapped anyone again. Sometimes they just have to put their hand on the burner, so to speak...
Some kids just have to piss on the electric fence or the sparkplug themselves.
I think you found the one singular time it is ok to hit your kid. Good job
My kid tried this and bit me, and I asked him how he’d feel if I bit him back, or someone else bit him, would it hurt? He shrugged, and tested it out by biting himself on his arm, of course he didn’t bite himself as hard as he bit me, so he said it didn’t hurt, I told him let me try, he ran away before I could show him, we no longer have a biter.
When I was a kid this was my brothers thing. I still have a scar from one of the bites. My mom finally told me to bite him back, I didn't want to at first but I finally got tired of him. His little ass let out a scream and went straight into tears. But he never bit anyone again.
My dad did the same to me. I stopped. He didn't even have to do it hard.
Sometimes they gotta learn the hard way. I had a brief stint as a biter when I was around 3 or 4. And I mean BRIEF. My mom said I only bit her once and that was all it took. She bit me back (just hard enough to get the point across.) Never did it again and stopped me from trying other forms of hurting people.
Heather was totally amused watching her mini-me swat their hostess over and over. Second swat should have sent them away for good.
Exactly. I have three cousins all under 10. They would never be allowed to hit adults over and over like this. If they do play fight, it's an uncle instigating it. It sucks that coffee stains clothes but Heather should have thought of that before she didn't take the swatters away herself. FAFO. I never invite them back until THEY apologize. NTA
Even after an apology, I'm not sure they'd be welcome on my property again
I have 3 kids. One swat to an adult would have been cause for being sent away or time out. Doing it again would be packing up the car and going home. We have little tolerance for being physical (outside of play) with other kids. We have zero tolerance for hitting adults.
And your kids behave. You never have to take measures more than once, in my experience (3 terrific adults now)
I think the kid was lucky it was coffee and not a swatter to the head. Seems she showed restraint
If that was my aunt or uncle back when I was 12 then my ass would’ve been in the lake. NTA. I messed around and found out as a kid and, luckily, it was my Dad who knew when to stop. If it had been some stranger dealing with this little girl and not someone who cares a modicum about her safety… just saying. The asshole here is his brother. If my brother called my wife “a cunt” he’d be picking up his teeth in a dust pan.
The op clarified in a comment somewhere that Heather used that word, not the brother. Because someone else mentioned his teeth too.
None of my husband's brothers ever would have called me that, even IF they thought it about me, but hypothetically, they'd KNOW before saying it that they're about to be in a serious fight. You don't call your brother's wife a cunt UNLESS you're hoping to get your teeth knocked out
As that uncle, play fighting is fine. But shut it down if it gets too crazy or if the parents say so. But if they are acting out like this my response is bear hug pick em up and drop them at their parents and make it clear "that is not acceptable/ok and you need some time out/away from people."
I am also that uncle. I was also a former pro MMA fighter so my nephews go HARD trying to win. They have been for like 10 years and now they're hitting puberty and are in their teens so I can go a little harder on them now. We had a 3v1 on a recent family reunion and my cousin's got upset that I threw one of them across the room while he was laughing his ass off. But when they say stop you gotta stop.
Those are some of my fondest memories growing up. Just being launched out of the pool or tossed into a snow pile by one of the adults. I'm pretty sure my parents loved it because it results in a tired child. Growing up, I did the same with my little cousins, but it was at the height of shaken baby syndrome scare in the 90s, so it didn't last long. When the parents say stop, you gotta stop.
If it's me and my spouse who own the place, kid and mom are getting ejected the first time coffee is spilled. I can't believe anyone put up with this as long as they did. None of these people should be invited back.
We had a neighbor kid who sometimes hit me. According to my kids, they apparently also were given unlimited sweets and drew on the walls. We decided our kids were not allowed to play over there anymore.
>I never invite them back until THEY apologize. I hire a large beach house for 4 weeks over the Christmas break (summer here) and it has room to sleep 17. My brother brings his family and my sister used to bring hers. Her kids are little shits, and I had to use my Dad voice once at 9 am (!) and took her aside to let her know that her kids are making my holiday stressful. She and hers were not allowed to return the following years until they learned how to behave. 5 years of the quietest, most fun filled holidays and counting.
You’re on to something there. It’s almost like Heather tacitly approved of her daughter’s behaviour. Probably jealous of OP’s wife and was being a passive aggressive see-you-next-Tuesday by allowing her daughter to behave like a feral animal.
I'm kinda good with the coffee thing. It's like squirting a dog with a water gun.
Like... it wasn't hot coffee, so yeah... fuck that kid
Don’t overthink bad parenting. Heather is just a lazy bad parent raising her offspring to repeat that cycle…..
Superbad parents like this usually flip out if the kid does it to them, but carry on as normal when the kid pesters everyone else nonstop. It's why the kid always goes for company and their kids, not their own parents.
We can say cunt when it's deserved, and it was totally deserved for that cunt.
And the way the brother just popped it out, sounds like he and Heather had already decided OP's wife was one.
We can say cunt even if it's not deserved, we're all adults here.
It is an ugly word and I would never say it. Now, don't invite those cunts back next year. Oops, slipped. Guess you were right.
Yeah, that’s a good point - bet Heather doesn’t like OP’s wife and Anna knows that, which is why Anna was so confident when it came to abusing OP’s wife and why Heather did nothing to stop her.
My grandmother never liked my great aunt. I mean really disliked. Did I ever step out of line with my great aunt?. Hell no. Hell would have rained down. I knew it was between them. Plus my great aunt seemed ok with me though I wasn't close to her.
Yeah, but you were probably raised to behave properly in polite company, or at least know better than to be a little brat and hit people.
Lol, set an example. She did - don't let ppl bully you without consequences. What a horrible child & set of parents. NTA at all.
Second swat should have had the coffee bath followed by, "Bug. Missed it."
Or "Bug. Got it."
“Bug. Got it.”
No doubt. She must have thought it was "cute" it isn't. My kid would not have been even allowed to hang out with adults. Heather needs to learn to parent.
"She's just a kid".... well get to being a parent then, you gormless minger.
I once almost got knocked over by a small child running around at a restaurant. I was standing in line behind the kid's mom, and he came barreling past me, bonking me in my bad knee as he did so. You see, he had a very important appointment to press face against and repeatedly lick the door to the restaurant patio. I loudly said, "Excuse me!" and the mom turned around and said, "He is a child," in the snottiest tone imaginable. I immediately shot back, "You are a parent," in the exact same snotty tone. Shockingly, she didn't have a response to that, but she did get her food to-go.
In December this year I was somewhere with a revolving door and there were 3 kids that kept going round and round... counted 6 times while I was waiting to get out of the store. I tried twice to step up so I could exit and the kids would just keep shouting to go around again. I was mildly perturbed and then the mother said "Come on, time to go. Some people weren't ever kids and didn't have fun." I said back "some people just aren't parents", she didn't like that very much.
I was working when I had a similar response.. Pre closing, cleaning and an elementary age girl walked by touching the glass as she went along. I said, “sweetie, please don’t touch the glass, I just cleaned it.” I added the sweetie so it would be more of a teaching moment than attacking. Mom said not to tell her daughter anything. Idk what over came me, but I forgot about customer service, and snapped back “well if you would have told her something, I wouldn’t have had to, would I?” Cusses and yells at me as she leaves the store.. The middle school/teen looking girl, look embarrassed, and the elementary girl looked scared. I just stared at them, wondering if I was going to get fired the next day. Op and wife are NTA. I was actually raised and not let wild.
I have never heard of the term ‘gormless minger’ before but you best believe it just got added to my vocab 🔥
NTA Anna needs to understand life has consequences. Cold coffee is a very small one.
She's clearly never seen one before with the way Heather is raising her.
She's lucky cold coffee was the first one. Kids at school could break her jaw.
Seriously. I had a friend in middle school who was relentlessly bullied by one little asshole. No one ever did anything, and his step-father (a cop) eventually told him to just stand up for himself the next time the kid tried getting physical with him and his parents would support him if he got in trouble. My friend took this advice to heart, and I’ll never forget seeing it happen. One day after lunch the asshole kid snuck up behind my friend and swatted him in the side of the head with his binder. Friend clenched his fist, tears in his eyes because he’s just so sick of this shit, then swung around and threw a blind punch at the kid. It wasn’t a calculated move at all, but the punch just happened to connect with the kids jaw. The kid went down and immediately grabbed his face and started wailing, and when he looked up there was blood *everywhere*. My friend started yelling at him, his voice breaking due to emotional overload, “I told you to leave me the fuck *alone!*” Asshole left school in an ambulance with a broken jaw and lacerations in his lower lip from where his teeth dug in. Friend got taken to the principal’s office and was picked up by his stepdad (in a cop car) who had a written log of every time the asshole bullied my friend (and pictures of the bruises the asshole had left on him) and chewed the administration out for doing absolutely nothing about it. In the end both the asshole and my friend had week long suspensions for fighting, but no charges were filed towards my friend outside of school. Don’t know how the asshole’s parents responded, but I know they had a long sit down with my friend’s parents who reamed them out for raising such a little dickhead. My friend returned after his suspension was over with a broken wrist. The asshole returned many weeks later, after his jaw was no longer sewn shut (according to the rumors at least; I don’t know if actually needed to be sewn shut). The kicker is that since my friend left in a cop car and the asshole left in an ambulance, and neither person returned to school for awhile after, everyone thought my friend had killed the asshole with his punch and gotten arrested. My friend had a reputation as a badass when he returned after his suspension, which is hilarious because he was a skinny emo kid who wanted nothing to do with violence under normal circumstances. When the asshole kid finally returned to school he had lost his asshole tendencies and stopped being a little shit to everyone. Turns out consequences *do* teach kids not to be dicks! So yeah. A literal example of parents (and school officials) not disciplining their child leading to said child receiving a broken jaw. Cold coffee is a much better way to learn not to be a little asshole than getting decked in the face.
I'm impressed the kid broke 2 bones with one punch, that was some rage, he activated kaoiken
Never underestimate the rage inside a relentlessly bullied emo kid.
Dude had months worth of built up resentment from daily bullying, all channeled through a single wild punch. He literally put his entire body into it when he twisted around. I don’t know if I explained it well enough, but he was building momentum before he could even see the asshole who smacked him with the binder. I can remember it in slow motion, seeing my friend get smacked, go still for a second, then clench his fists, rotate right, then swing back left all the way around to hit the asshole. His arm swung so far during the punch it was almost like he whipped his jaw with his fist more than he actually punched him.
My grandfather showed us how to cold cock someone very much like that; using your whole body to put momentum behind the swing ideally using bother hands clasped together aiming for their nose, and give it a solid golf swing. Obviously you don’t start a fight like that but I can tell you for real you can end one that way.
Why the hell did the kid get suspended for defending himself? That's why I hate the US school system.
Zero tolerance policies only serve to punish victims and protect bullies.
Zero tolerance policies. In most (maybe all?) US schools there’s a zero tolerance policy for violence, so those who defend themselves from physical bullying often receive the same punishment as the bully. It makes no sense, and basically takes away a kid’s ability to protect himself since there’s no differentiation between the aggressor and the defender. It’s disgustingly common for kids to get physically bullied for prolonged lengths of time, then get in trouble when they finally defend themselves after realizing their teachers/school officials won’t do anything about it. It’s silly because the kids get in trouble for fighting when the only other option is *not* to fight and continue getting bullied while (for whatever strange reason) their bullies are seldom disciplined for picking on them before they inevitably retaliate.
Yeah this happened to me. I had this kid bully me for six months and he even showed up at my doorstep threatening me. Then one day I beat him up and I GOT 5 DAYS SUSPENSION WTF.
My son got jumped by a kid at school, and because my son was short I guess the kid thought he was an easy mark. My son beat the holy living hell out of him and when the resource officer came , my son told him he wanted to press charges. Fortunately there was another teacher watching the whole escapade. The resource officer did arrest the kid. The school has a zero tolerance policy, but my son got no consequences at all. I was surprised. I was told my kids, if someone else starts it, you finish it. I’ll take care of administration.
Anna's of middle school age. If she hasnt seen consequences yet, some kid will come along very soon and generously gift her with some.
Or at the rate she’s going, will end up expelled from her school and at alternative school for delinquents, or juvenile. Oh well.
For a second I thought you meant she’d clearly never seen a cold coffee before lmao
It's scary how parents will allow their children to become disasters and somehow willfully ignore them getting worse. NTA.
>It's scary how parents will allow their children to become disasters and somehow willfully ignore them getting worse. So true, and they're doing the child no favors. Adult life has consequences, and a child should understand that early in life. "Parents" not giving their own children these important life lessons is a tragedy.
Then they want help when they’re teenagers and unbearable. Clearly they neglect her cause sounds like she’ll do anything for any type of attention.
And blame everything else in the world when their little monsters turn into big monsters.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Do not apologize, it's not owed, nor would it be genuine.
Nanny here, and as much as I want to say that your wife should’ve held her temper, fuck that dude. NTA. You told the child to stop multiple times. Told the parents to take a hold of their child multiple times. Anyone with fucking eyes would see how mad someone would be getting after this continued on and on. And on top of it, your wife gave a final warning, saying, “*either get your kid the fuck out of here or I’m going to lose my shit*:” Everyone getting their panties in a twist has obviously never dealt with trouble kids and effective parenting with disciplinary actions. Heather and your brother need to learn how to take care of their demon spawn and once they understand how awful their child behaves, maybe you guys can rekindle your relationship.
I would have took the fly swatter and hit your brother gf with saying there is a fly on you. If you don't like sort your kid out. Personally I'd ban them from ever stepping foot on my property ever again. The kid assaulted you wife so many times whilst her mum stood by and let her and your brother did jack shit. She's lucky she didn't get a smack.
Im kinda petty, so I would have gotten my own fly swatted and smacked Heather every time Anna hit me. Then thrown them out, of course.
I'd pay to see that.
My wife did ban them from the property. If she hadn't, I would have. It sucks because Heathers boys are damn good kids and are being essentially punished for their sister and moms poor behavior but it is what it is.
Invite the boys next time. Exclude the rest of them. Your wife deserves a medal.
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When my sister was in her "FAFO" phase, so like ages 4-6, she got us both removed from what turned out to be the last birthday party I was ever invited to. The Mom had invited all the kids in our class, and any other siblings. She had been cut off from sugary drinks, and already threatened with time out or a quick correcting car visit. She was a bit sugar mad, and then just straight up certifiable. I was in the bouncy house, when I hear her name, a line of 'Nonono", a loud crash and then gut-wrenching screaming. She had swiped some candy from another kid, my Mom saw, and was calling her to come to her side, because it was car correction time. My sister knew this, so she decided to go out with a bang, and took off running across the yard. She then dragged the punch bowl down on herself, trying to recreate that tablecloth gag for maximum damage or something. It was very cold and sticky, hence the screaming. I'd never seen my Mom so angry. She had stripped my sister down in the car, and wrapped her in a dog towel. My sister wouldn't stop crying. The anger was rolling off my Mom in silent waves, as she drove slowly home, letting my sister stew while she probably weighed the pros and cons of just straight up murder. My Dad took me out for ice cream because it wasn't my fault.
What sucks is because of your sisters behavior, you were then punished for the remainder of your childhood. *"Can't invite him, what if he brings the sister along again.... Did you hear the punch bowl story?"*
That's so awful! I'm glad your dad took you for ice cream.
I took the kiddo to a birthday party and one of the little girls there was just... oh, man. I feel for those parents. We all just sort of grinned and bore it while she ran around throwing dirt at people, stealing presents, and wailing anytime someone tried to slow her roll. Then she tried to grab a large tray of wings just out of the oven. The lady removing the wings roughly and immediately grabbed her hand to avoid a trip to the ER and the kid just started screaming. I mean full on, open mouth, head to the sky, eyes rolled back scream-crying. We all froze, not sure WTF - did she get burned? did the woman hit her? stung by a bee? It was like a bad teen movie in slow motion: the mom sprinting, in kitten heels, towards the food area while The Spice Girls assured us we'd all need to be friends before we could be lovers. Dad whirling, beer droplets hovering in midair. Lady with wings overbalancing, holding the tray one-handed while trying not to drop 415 degrees of Frank's Red Hot onto self or child. And, finally, child, still screeching, turning to the food items in her reach since the wings are still on high. Child grabbing and pulling a table runner, upending the three open bottles of wine, some beers. Chips spraying everywhere. Table collapsing. Meemaw's potato salad learning to fly. Kid managed to pull the entire table down, soaking everything with spilled soda / wine / beer. She was fine, if covered in soggy chips and salsa. Lady with the wings managed to pivot and dump them behind her, losing the lot in the grass but somehow not burning anyone. We managed to salvage some of the food, ordered pizza, and somebody went out on a grocery run for more beer. The hosting couple cracked open their wine fridge (lol, a *wine fridge,* what even is my life at this point). At some point during the cleanup the family with the mess tornado slunk off and I never saw them again at any BBQ.
I really enjoyed this, particularly Meemaw’s potato salad learning to fly.
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NTA. If my kids are misbehaving and not following directions/rules, we’re going home. I’m not going to put my friends/family through that, and I’m not going to deal with that in public.
NTA. I admire your wife's restraint at throwing only a coffee.
Agreed, having coffee spilled 2 times. Getting smacked by the fly swatter consistently. After the first warning, everything after that was just malicious on the kid and her parents part
The first coffee spill of anyone's would have been the limit. I grew up that you don't waste food or something that someone made and would have been in a LOT of trouble just swatting the fly swatter around like that. I've been told I have a good "mom voice" and it would have definitely come out. You're in my space you're getting parented by me if yours isn't doing shit.
Same here. My kids and all their friends get quiet quickly when my Mom voice comes out. It usually works on their dead beat parents too which can be annoying because I feel like I'm parenting them AND their brat at that point.
ESPECIALLY a 12 yo girl? He’s describing what sounds like a tribe of 3 year olds. Holy hell I would have SNAPPED.
Fly swatters have germs from dead flies! If she'd done that to me, I'd have picked her up by the scruff of the neck and tossed her in the lake!
After the second fly swat, I would have thrown the coffee.
And only a *cold* coffee.
Yeah, at first I was like "wtf?" Then I saw she only drinks cold coffee. lol
And an iced coffee at that. Not even hot
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Doesn’t this sound really developmentally late too? I know that the ol’ “bug on your face” trick is the oldest in the book, but wouldn’t that be closer to appropriate for, say, a 6 year old?
Agreed. Overall it sounds like her behavior is more of a young child vs a 12 year old. That’s probably due to shitty parenting.
I laughed at ‘launched my kid into outer space’ because SAME 🤣
can confirm, my dad has attempted to enter me into the space program when I was little lmao
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Oh she's expelled. She was expelled last year for bullying, after having 3 ISS's in a row. But Heather blamed the school. Said her kid was just "defending herself". So, no discipline there either.
100% Anna is going to end up in juvie. No impulse control and no grownup to set boundaries - that never ends well.
Or pregnant in the next 2 years by an 18yr old dropout. They can all live with the mother.
this is how trailer trash begins
Nope that will not happen. Dude will be in his 30s
I would have long given up on getting the “parent” to step up. It would have been a my house, my rules situation where, after first slap of adult with a swatter, I’d have taken it away, told her to go outside of the home to play, and not come back in until told to. If she looked to her mom, I’d have said don’t look at her, she’s not in charge, I am. My house. Or you can continue, and then your whole family must go. Just keep looking at her, blocking view of mom. Anyone bitches, they can go too.
This kid is going to meet her match...she will be in trouble with law enforcement soon... mom is going to be at alot of court hearings she sounds clueless
Or, she'll meet someone who reacts worse than dumping cool coffee. We had a few kids like this in middle school, then we all went to the regional highschool. They learned to keep their hands to themselves when the kids who had finished puberty hit back.
That explains a lot. How the younger two seem okay is beyond me.
To them it's probably exhausting too
I wonder if she'll try to blame the cops when that girl inevitably ends up getting arrested
No, she'll blame the victim as usual. "Stealing a car isn't a big deal, why are they calling the cops!"
NTA. At this point, do not allow that kid to come to your camp or any events you host.
NTA Hitting an adult in their face would have led to me not being able to sit for days.
Tell the boys that the reason they aren’t allowed camping is because of their sisters horrible behavior, then let all hell break loose.
Seriously, have a boys camp out.
Who was it that called your wife an "immature cunt"?
Heather, Anna's mom.
That's a relief, it'd be difficult to maintain relations with your brother after you knocked his fucking teeth in.
Surprisingly, my brother actually told Heather to not say that about my wife. He was down my wife's throat but he wasn't okay with her calling my wife that. So I thought that was pretty cool.
Maybe send this post to your brother so he can maybe see what he’s tied himself to. Might wake him up and get him out before he gets stuck with this woman and her awful daughter permanently
The kid and her mum should be great full that it was a cold coffee, not a hot one. I would have dumped it on the kid a lot earlier. Kids mum needs to grow up and parent her child, before she ends up in jail, with mummy dearest saying she doesn’t deserve this. Maybe see if your brother can convince devil mum and evil spawn to some counselling.
Oh well, that's OK then.
I have hope that your brother will learn from this, dump heather and offer a sincere apology to your wife.
The only immature cunt in this situation is Heather for not parenting her child. Fuck her and honestly, fuck your brother too for not doing anyrhing either. Tell your wife to throw a cinder block next time, it's more effective
Good for you. In our family, camp is a privilege and it has to be earned. Take it for granted or don't follow the camp rules and you lose that privilege.
Honestly you should just cut them off until he dumps the cunt. And even then you should probably limit your time with him.
Yup. I missed the ages at the beginning. I’d expected it to be a 2-3 year old, not a 12 year old. I would have snatched the flyswatter and swatted her with it. Hard. 12 years old is old enough to know better, and old enough to know it’s not so funny when she’s the one who gets hurt.
NTA. Touch me with a fly swatter and it’ll be a fucking war fr.
Thank you! Heather would be pulling a fly swatter from a nether region.
And two more from her nose
I like how you think!
NTA This is a case of mess around and find out. Your wife had already point blank told Heather and your brother to deal with Anna. She persisted in her annoying and disrespectful behavior. She actually struck your wife with the fly swatter and (presumably) stained her clothes with the intentionally spilled coffee. Anna should not be allowed to act that way under any circumstances, but especially not as a guest at an event someone is hosting. Your brother and Heather were just as responsible since they did nothing to correct Anna's behavior or deliver consequences that would teach her the lesson and prevent her from continuing the behavior. Your wife stood up for herself and delivered non-harmful consequences (since it was cold coffee) to Anna by giving her a taste of how her own behavior effects others. I don't think she has anything to apologize for. Heather and her children should be banned from any future events unless Anna is excluded or her behavior improves. No one in your family should have to put up with that. Anna is almost a teenager, not a toddler, so the excuse that she's just a kid doesn't work. There is no excuse for her behavior. No one outside of your family would come close to tolerating Anna's shenanigans. She will be hurt socially if does this with her peers. It's better she learn this lesson now than struggle having friends because she annoys everyone.
Yeah. Hot coffee would’ve been bad, obviously, but dousing the kid in cold coffee was just a taste of her own medicine. She’s 12, she’s old enough to know better.
Yup, and if Anna never experiences consequences from family, someone else is going to give her that rude awakening...
Agreed except I think Heather should also be banned for the way she talked to OP's wife. Unless she apologizes first, I don't think she should be allowed back near them at all. Just the boys and the brother at this point (IF the brother wasn't the one to call her an "immature c%£t. Although I'm guessing that was the mother).
NTA. Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think your wife is amazing. Your brother and especially Heather are the ones to blame. They should be apologizing for the kid's behavior. This definitely sounds like a parenting-problem.
Wife should have also thrown a coffee on the gf.
Wasn’t she? I would’ve busted mom in the face. Thanks autocorrect.
NTA Anna was smacking your wife with a fly swatter. Does Heather have any idea how much those things hurt?! My grandma used to use fly swatters as what she called "a shitty kiddie beater". If I played up, I got the fly swatter. Them fucking things *really* hurt! Heather and Mack need to control their daughter and stop allowing her to behave that way. As another Redditor suggested, continue to invite the boys, leave the rest out. Maybe Heather and Mack should stop being Anna's friends and start acting like her parents
I think that's why my wife's reaction was so extreme. She used to get beat with fly swatters and "switches" (wood that she had to pick out herself to get beat with). It's why she doesn't have/want children. It's why I got a vasectomy when I realized we were on the same page. So Anna hitting my wife repeatedly with the swatter, after she had been told to stop.. it wasn't a good scene. My wife did try getting Heather to step in before that point but no dice so it is what it is.
Honestly your wife’s reaction was *far* from extreme when you factor in how much shit she took before she snapped. Children get 1(one) single chance to smack me with something, followed by stern words. The second time and their ass is going back to their parents who are willing to tolerate it, and off my property where I will not.
I was at a friends house and their 3ish year old daughter smacked my phone with a glow stick. I said in a stern voice "No ma'am we don't do that" and she apologized. Perfectly appropriate and she wasn't going to do it again. I nipped it in the bud right then. Then her dad asked what happened and started seriously yelling at her. I was over it, she apologized, dad needed to calm tf down.
I think you and your wife needed to be a \*lot\* more firm with your brother. At the second swat, all adult conversation stops. The flyswatter is removed from the child. You and your wife now explicitly and directly talk to your brother and his girlfriend about how this is not ok, and that the consequence of a third swat is that they will be sent home. I'm sorry you're having to parent your brother and his girlfriend, especially when you've both explicitly decided \*not\* to be parents to any one, but apparently that's what they needed: boundaries and consequences.
Your wife used to get hit with wood?! Like... Twigs or actual logs of wood? Either way, that's terrible and I'm sorry for your wife having to go through that. I used to babysit the severely autistic brother of a girl who was like Anna in a lot of ways, minus the hitting me because she knew better than that. But just like Anna, at 12 years old, this girl was throwing tantrums and just being a nuisance in general. She used to mess with my laptop while I was using it because she thought it was funny. (I was applying for jobs at the time. The babysitting was just so I could make some money to keep me afloat until I found one). Anna needs to start facing consequences for her actions. She now knows that if she messes with your wife, she gets the cold coffee. May be a harsh and "abusive" punishment in some people's eyes, but hitting your wife with a fly swatter is also abusive behavior coming from someone who's old enough to know better
It was generally a twig but she did say that she was hit with a full piece of firewood at one point because her father and grandfather made the kids pick out their own piece of wood to get beat with and she ended up choosing a bigger piece at one point, thinking it would hurt less.
Being hit with a switch is a form of caning, the cane simply comes from outside and it’s a very old school form of corporal punishment.
This is common in some places. I had a SO from W.Virginia and this was standard parenting practice. And yea, if you chose one that broke you’d have to go get another or worse, the POS dad would go find one himself.
Switches not logs. They are live bendy pieces of tree or bush. It is essentially a whip. So she was whipped as a child.
My understanding is that a switch is like a tree branch. It's still sort of bendy because it's newer than other branches, so it's used to hit people. My dad used to get hit with a switch when he was a kid, and if they picked an older one that wasn't as bendy, they would be hit with it until it broke and then they had to get a new one that was right.
" No, my wife shouldn't have had to remove herself from the equation when it's our property and everything was on our dime." **10/10** " My brother and his sorry excuse of a mom GF should have corrected the issue from the beginning." **10/10** " Just a quick add: it is NOT my wife's job to set an example, like some of you are saying. We are kid free for a reason." **11/10** I love this post.
NTA. Ban them from all future events
CAN'T believe people are stating this one's a tough one. OP's wife was repeatedly struck in the head with something used to smash bugs. was there not dog poop available?!?! Your place, your rules, and wife even gave warnings, when frankly - none should have been needed.
Not to mention the kid responsible is 12. At that age, the kid should know that running around hitting people in the face is a really bloody stupid thing to do.
only thing OP's wife's AH for, is for NOT dumping it on kids' mom. Op can make the mom a deal. of COURSE they're welcome again. BUT... every time your daughter strikes someone or spills on someone, that individual will get to mirror the behavior, but on the mom. Then sell tickets. everyone wins!!!!!!!
NTA. Fuck around and find out. Throw coffee on other people and have coffee thrown on you. Anna assaulted your wife multiple times, she is lucky all she got was cold coffee on her. Your brother and Heather are AHs for not putting a stop to this. ”I don’t know why she acts like that.” BECAUSE SHE CAN!
As a child I loved pulling small pranks on people that my dad enjoyed too. Once a guy threw his cup full of beer on me after I jump scared him. He didn't apologize and when I went crying to my mom she laughed and told me that's what consequences are and that I risked this happening by harassing that guy. Now I know better but it sounds like Anna is very troubled and not getting proper parenting. I feel bad for her but apologizing only makes it worse. She should remember this instance for a long time just like I do.
On the *forehead*?? Look, on the shoes, a pant leg, *maybe* a bare leg, the flyswatter thing is an annoyance. A big annoyance by the 3d or 4th time, but still just annoying. In the face? I’d have had a very hard time not slapping both Mack and Heather upside the head with a “shit, missed the fly!”
If she is acting this way at 12- imagine her behavior at 15😳
I would've pulled the scattered and swatted her a few times with it. I read coffee and immediately thought of hot coffee not iced so I was fully prepared to say she was the asshole. But not an asshole at all!
NTA. I admire your wife's restraint at throwing only a coffee.
NTA at all. You and your wife showed much more restraint than I would have. I would have told them to leave as soon as she spilled coffee #2. Then banned them. I've written family off before and everyone knows that I am dead serious when I say to stop fucking with me. Your wife handled this very well. Kudos. A coffee spill is well deserved. The YTA and ESH folks are obviously bad parents who think their children are the main characters and can do no wrong. Don't listen to them. You and your wife are awesome.