You should try last epoch
They have a lot of builds that mesh out like this, Runemaster comes to mind stacking different elemental runes to release more damage, I also like Judgement Paladin using buffs/CDs for good damage (also doesnt use a weapon just gloves lol) food for thought doe
last epoch has something called dynamic damage scaling on bosses. what this does is punish strong builds that characters have worked hard on by limiting their damage output. it's something they do to avoid having to actually balance the game properly. some won't care, but if you like buildcrafting & feeling rewarded for all that effort, it's total trash
Yeah and I think this is the issue with most ARPGs/Thought processes, where meta dictates most fun but you can push with homebrews. I enjoy theory crafting my own builds most of the time, in season 2 of D4 i did a triple basic attack build, my last time on last epoch i did a retaliation/healing hands forge guard build (one of many builds lol) and rn on D4 playing grenade rogue where my evade causes all my damage, sitting at 40 tiers under in the pit compared to major streamers but hitting 110 on the pit or even pushing higher corruption on homebrews is fun to me
Unfortunately they're not many due the lack of genre dynamics and how it was rooted from Diablo 1 and copied stupidly without much evolvement through years as one may expected. I can recommend you to check out Median XL which is catered to the hardcore masses and requires hand dexterity and split second decision making. However it is not using the remaster due to great use of borrowed sprites from classics.
There are currently two aRPGs I've been following for: PoE2 and Titan Quest 2(not sure the direction as of writing this though) that I believe they have the tendency to have influenced by bits of Souls like aspects.
Sadly the nature of arpgs has been to focus on adding numbers up/multipliers rather than making skills be skilled. Like, instead of having your skills "shred" which is a debuff or buff up a type of damage, I rather would like it more when skills interact with each other like say your throw a type of field spell like fire, now you're multi shot when shooting across sets your arrows on fire. Or putting down a forcefield spell makes damage increase in one direction and decrease on the other. So positioning and timing matters more than the numbers.
To my eyes also arpgs grind is kinda funny since you end up looking for one item or another just because your skill choice has a different tagged damage like "fire" or "lightning" but fundamentally they end up being the same since all skills have to hit hard and fast, so all builds end up like that, they can't be told apart except for the effects on screen, which also most games end up having a cluttering of anyways.
To answer, maybe check guild wars 2 or Warframe, but they aren't arpgs as we understand them now so yeah...sad news, nothing on the horizon really. I'm having hopes for Poe 2 just because of the monk bell skill and the hunter whirlwind to make skills be again, skilled.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head. I still remember Marvel Heroes was a lot better with this or at the very least had so many heroes it FELT better and I think Torchlight infinite is getting better with this I just haven't seen enough of it to justify spending money on a battle pass to unlock the cool more difficult or interesting class.
Guild Wars 2 is already my favourite MMO, got every class at max level in it but haven't played any of the expansions yet because I would prefer to with friends, and warframe I got to steelpath and then quit waiting for there to be more expansions to come out before I come back to grind content.
Was hoping for something to tide me over until PoE 2 hahaha thank you for the suggestions though.
You have to make your own builds for the most part. Pro gamers / streamers who play for thousands of hours make the builds. They want to defeat the hardest content, the fastest, and that usually means 1 of 2 buttons, tons of mobility / dashes / movement speed / teleports, etc. It ends up a blur of boredom. You get the items but none of the joy of the process to get there.
Last Epoch is amazing with the Runemaster. If you cast fire/cold/lightning spells in a sequence, you generate a powerful unique spell to use. It is situational, powerful (as in useful), and you can intentionally manipulate the spell you get to defeat a rare monster, boss fight, or mop up easy enemies while leveling.
Other than that, Path of Exile is a great game. It is flooded with no skill “1 or 2 abilities is all you need” builds. But the functionality is there to make powerful builds with something unique. I have never had more fun than failing at PoE, learning from the mistakes, and rerolling a new character to experiment some more.
Passives like “casting a different spell improves your cast speed 6% for 4 seconds, stackable”. If you use that mastery and intentionally have 4 or more skills you use, it can be a lot. There’s no node out there granting 24%+ cast speed, but this could be even more. Use it to teleport, debuff enemies, slow/cripple them, drop a dmg over time attack, use direct dmg attack. By now it is 4 seconds so you can recast teleport. Etc.
Truth is, most of the already existing Arpg games have mechanics that could lead to overpowered builds that REQUIRE lots of different skills and abilities used wisely, situationally reacting to the enemies or threats faced, etc.
We don’t need an Arpg to cater to us. There’s tons of players who have this desired playstyle. We need a subreddit, a website, or place where builds like this get shared, community theorycrafted and improved upon, etc.
PS: Path of Exile 2 might interest you. Currently in development. To be fair, it might interest everyone.
You might want to look at games that are less ARPG and more isometric shooters like Alienation, Helldivers 1, maybe the upcoming No Rest for the Wicked. Imo Alienation is really the best balance between a very skille based bullet hell game and a ARPG.
EDIT: misread ARPG for MMO. Still leaving the initial comment for OP.
Give Grim Dawn a shot. Great class combinations, hella loot, stellar atmosphere, and a pretty decent story to boot. Combat is incredibly satisfying and one of the most recent patches added in an evasion ability for all classes. It's my most played arpg and I played the daylights out of Diablo 2 and 3. To give you idea of the depth of classes and builds you should check out the [build compendium forum.](https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/build-compendium-x-forgotten-gods/49673)
I think its time I make another character...
~~I can not recommend Elder Scrolls Online enough. Sure, there are some classes that are one trick ponies (looking at you arcanist), but the classes are really well done and the combat is incredibly satisfying.~~
~~I main a Necromancer that functions more like a Death Knight from WoW than a typical necromancer summoning minions left and right. Sure you have a skill that has to be thrown up every 3 skills (blastbones), but there are so many skills needed for an optimal dps rotation while also juggling defensive buffs and heals. The class does have a bit of a piano feel, but there are several other classes like Dragonknight and Sorcerer that have dynamic rotations as well.~~
~~You also have two skill bars with 5 skill slots each that you will need to rotate through. On top of that tanking and healing are a mix of buffing to ensure you support your team, performing your actual task,~~ *~~and~~* ~~doing damage at the same time with various skills.~~
~~There's more to fits that positioning and support / damage. For instance, especially while soloing certain monsters such as world bosses, the need to perform a roll-dodge to prevent a one-shot or to get out of nasty AoE affects.~~
~~Definitely check the game out. From one MMO fan to another it's an absolute blast and is one of my favorites.~~
As you didn't mention last epoch, go buy and play last epoch, it is a perfect middle ground between PoE and diablo and offers some fun boss fights, new content (patch 1.1) coming in 1-3 weeks i think, with a lot of new bosses
What about Hades or the pre-release but very playable Hades 2?
Combat is more action/skill oriented, there is significant development of your character some of which either makes you stronger and some of which just gives you alternate skills/play styles but generally is at least intended to be balanced instead of grinding for an “I-win” button.
to be fair most games are gonna focus on one or two skills with utility the rest because thats how a good build is made. if you spread out your resources too much then youre gonna be weak on all fronts.
soul knight prequel is a mobile ARPG, that is actually quite fun and has synergistic combos, and i know mobile arpg sounds bad but its actually extremely well done.
The only way this happens is lots of cooldowns on your skills forcing you to rotate through them. This traditionally is more of an MMO thing, so I concur with others that Lost Ark is probably your best bet.
While I think the general sentiment of calling out Last Epoch is a good one, I can't help but think some of the descriptions you said remind me of other games from other genres.
When you are talking about outskill and dodge the boss's attacks, I can't help but think of Elden Ring/Dark Souls/Monster Hunter series. The very definition of a genre that wants you to learn to "outskill" your opponents.
When I think of games that have rotations and/or combos of abilities, I can't help but think of time/turn based RPGs, like Divinity Original Sin 2/Baldurs Gate 3/Pillars of Eternity and several other CRPGs.
------
Another "minimalist" idea, is to flip the whole description on it's head, and say that Vampire Survivors, and it's clone games might scratch the itch if you are willing to give them the chance. It's not necessarily what you were describing, but it definitely fits the bill of games with relatively fast looting/killing cycles, needing to pay attention, but not needing to 'always' be fully paying attention, and having a wide array of skills to use and combine together to make a different build every time.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?
> *“We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land.”* - Solaire of Astora
Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
Lost Ark has very good combat.
Before the stones.
Huge disclaimers. It is not a loot-based game. It is a group-based game. It is also very grindy, in a time-gated way.
BUT! They just announced **solo** raids for the Korean version. Which means the global release should get them not too long after.
Now, the game is not one I would normally recommend, but it is free and the combat requires a good amount of skills. Bosses don't just fold, they have patterns, mechanics, the whole circus.
Once the solo version of raids are released I think it might be worth visiting considering the price tag.
I dont mind even spending money on Lost Ark if I can get reasonably strong without needing to p2w too much I didn't play it because I heard bad things about bots and finding raids in earlier tiers is it better now? I actually would prefer group play honestly
Just keep in mind LA is not seasonal arpg format its an mmo, daily quests, weekly raids, daily dungeons, and you need to have 1000 alts and do same on those, everyday
If you want the best end game combat that is always unique and fast pace Lost Ark. Downside of Lost Ark is it is more like an MMO and requires a huge time commitment and a stable group.
I did give it a try again, but tbh none of the class archetypes interested me too much I spent a long time researching it and just couldn't find a class that jelled with me. I'd probably just play dungeon fighter online or something instead like another mmo but I prefer games with solo progression (I know lost arks getting solo raids soon)
Really? When I tried playing it I can't remember the class but atleast early on it seemed to rely on one main skill.
I got it with all the dlc got any recommendations for class combos with depth?
You'll usually have one primary damage skill, but you'll still have a dodge, a move skill, at least one resistance shred skill, oftentimes a heal or an 'oh s***' button... If you want multiple button presses, I'd suggest Demolitionist plus something else, or Occultist plus something else. Demo gives 2 different resistance shred skills, as well as a couple different options for primary damage skills. Occultist gives a good shred skill, a burst heal, and a couple options for damage skills. Just pick a second mastery that supports your chosen damage type.
Wrong. Grim Dawn also falls into that mindless left-click pitfall. Enemies are no more than HP sponges and won't require you to swap your skills in terms of outskilling them in the slightest.
ARPGs (Diablo, PoE, LE, GD etc) the goal is to press one button to kill everything as fast as possible.
If you want more combat complexity or more buttons then it's just RPG. Skyrim, Souls, Elden Ring, Fallout etc
Hate to be that guy, but no. That is for the ARPG’s that are focused to be like a Diablo-esque game. Hogwarts Legacy I think is even considered an ARPG. Elden Ring is literally an Action Role Playing Game.
Read first sentence
[Elden Ring](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elden_Ring)
when people think of ARPGS now they mean diablo esquer type games, it really should have its own genre but most people think of isometric looters as ARPGs.
The point of genres is to sort similar games, and none of the games you listed are similar.
Diablo-likes are H'n'S games under the ARPG genre, under the CRPG genre.
Hogwarts Legacy is an Action-Adventure game under the Adventure genre.
Elden Ring is a Souls-like under Spectacle Fighters under JRPG's, under CRPG's.
You should try last epoch They have a lot of builds that mesh out like this, Runemaster comes to mind stacking different elemental runes to release more damage, I also like Judgement Paladin using buffs/CDs for good damage (also doesnt use a weapon just gloves lol) food for thought doe
last epoch has something called dynamic damage scaling on bosses. what this does is punish strong builds that characters have worked hard on by limiting their damage output. it's something they do to avoid having to actually balance the game properly. some won't care, but if you like buildcrafting & feeling rewarded for all that effort, it's total trash
Nah, runemasters just one key spam frostclaw
it CAN be, build pros on runemaster builds are always “-No Rune Management” there are definitely build that utilize the stacking and multi skills
[удалено]
Yeah and I think this is the issue with most ARPGs/Thought processes, where meta dictates most fun but you can push with homebrews. I enjoy theory crafting my own builds most of the time, in season 2 of D4 i did a triple basic attack build, my last time on last epoch i did a retaliation/healing hands forge guard build (one of many builds lol) and rn on D4 playing grenade rogue where my evade causes all my damage, sitting at 40 tiers under in the pit compared to major streamers but hitting 110 on the pit or even pushing higher corruption on homebrews is fun to me
Imagine downvotes for factual statement haha. You got ganked by LE CTA squadron.
Last Epoch has great skill synergies.
last epoch has dynamic scaling on bosses so they don't have to balance the game. total trash
Unfortunately they're not many due the lack of genre dynamics and how it was rooted from Diablo 1 and copied stupidly without much evolvement through years as one may expected. I can recommend you to check out Median XL which is catered to the hardcore masses and requires hand dexterity and split second decision making. However it is not using the remaster due to great use of borrowed sprites from classics. There are currently two aRPGs I've been following for: PoE2 and Titan Quest 2(not sure the direction as of writing this though) that I believe they have the tendency to have influenced by bits of Souls like aspects.
This sounds like you would love Nioh 2
Nioh 2 is a great game, I was thinking that too.
It does indeed. Souls-likes in general in fact. Not ARPG's at all. I can't stand souls-like myself.
Sadly the nature of arpgs has been to focus on adding numbers up/multipliers rather than making skills be skilled. Like, instead of having your skills "shred" which is a debuff or buff up a type of damage, I rather would like it more when skills interact with each other like say your throw a type of field spell like fire, now you're multi shot when shooting across sets your arrows on fire. Or putting down a forcefield spell makes damage increase in one direction and decrease on the other. So positioning and timing matters more than the numbers. To my eyes also arpgs grind is kinda funny since you end up looking for one item or another just because your skill choice has a different tagged damage like "fire" or "lightning" but fundamentally they end up being the same since all skills have to hit hard and fast, so all builds end up like that, they can't be told apart except for the effects on screen, which also most games end up having a cluttering of anyways. To answer, maybe check guild wars 2 or Warframe, but they aren't arpgs as we understand them now so yeah...sad news, nothing on the horizon really. I'm having hopes for Poe 2 just because of the monk bell skill and the hunter whirlwind to make skills be again, skilled.
Yeah you hit the nail on the head. I still remember Marvel Heroes was a lot better with this or at the very least had so many heroes it FELT better and I think Torchlight infinite is getting better with this I just haven't seen enough of it to justify spending money on a battle pass to unlock the cool more difficult or interesting class. Guild Wars 2 is already my favourite MMO, got every class at max level in it but haven't played any of the expansions yet because I would prefer to with friends, and warframe I got to steelpath and then quit waiting for there to be more expansions to come out before I come back to grind content. Was hoping for something to tide me over until PoE 2 hahaha thank you for the suggestions though.
marvel heroes is sorta being remade by fans,
No rest fo the wicked is not a typical arpg and the combat is more skill based, like a soul but more funny
Was going to say this one seems to fit his description.
You have to make your own builds for the most part. Pro gamers / streamers who play for thousands of hours make the builds. They want to defeat the hardest content, the fastest, and that usually means 1 of 2 buttons, tons of mobility / dashes / movement speed / teleports, etc. It ends up a blur of boredom. You get the items but none of the joy of the process to get there. Last Epoch is amazing with the Runemaster. If you cast fire/cold/lightning spells in a sequence, you generate a powerful unique spell to use. It is situational, powerful (as in useful), and you can intentionally manipulate the spell you get to defeat a rare monster, boss fight, or mop up easy enemies while leveling. Other than that, Path of Exile is a great game. It is flooded with no skill “1 or 2 abilities is all you need” builds. But the functionality is there to make powerful builds with something unique. I have never had more fun than failing at PoE, learning from the mistakes, and rerolling a new character to experiment some more. Passives like “casting a different spell improves your cast speed 6% for 4 seconds, stackable”. If you use that mastery and intentionally have 4 or more skills you use, it can be a lot. There’s no node out there granting 24%+ cast speed, but this could be even more. Use it to teleport, debuff enemies, slow/cripple them, drop a dmg over time attack, use direct dmg attack. By now it is 4 seconds so you can recast teleport. Etc. Truth is, most of the already existing Arpg games have mechanics that could lead to overpowered builds that REQUIRE lots of different skills and abilities used wisely, situationally reacting to the enemies or threats faced, etc. We don’t need an Arpg to cater to us. There’s tons of players who have this desired playstyle. We need a subreddit, a website, or place where builds like this get shared, community theorycrafted and improved upon, etc. PS: Path of Exile 2 might interest you. Currently in development. To be fair, it might interest everyone.
You might want to look at games that are less ARPG and more isometric shooters like Alienation, Helldivers 1, maybe the upcoming No Rest for the Wicked. Imo Alienation is really the best balance between a very skille based bullet hell game and a ARPG.
EDIT: misread ARPG for MMO. Still leaving the initial comment for OP. Give Grim Dawn a shot. Great class combinations, hella loot, stellar atmosphere, and a pretty decent story to boot. Combat is incredibly satisfying and one of the most recent patches added in an evasion ability for all classes. It's my most played arpg and I played the daylights out of Diablo 2 and 3. To give you idea of the depth of classes and builds you should check out the [build compendium forum.](https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/build-compendium-x-forgotten-gods/49673) I think its time I make another character... ~~I can not recommend Elder Scrolls Online enough. Sure, there are some classes that are one trick ponies (looking at you arcanist), but the classes are really well done and the combat is incredibly satisfying.~~ ~~I main a Necromancer that functions more like a Death Knight from WoW than a typical necromancer summoning minions left and right. Sure you have a skill that has to be thrown up every 3 skills (blastbones), but there are so many skills needed for an optimal dps rotation while also juggling defensive buffs and heals. The class does have a bit of a piano feel, but there are several other classes like Dragonknight and Sorcerer that have dynamic rotations as well.~~ ~~You also have two skill bars with 5 skill slots each that you will need to rotate through. On top of that tanking and healing are a mix of buffing to ensure you support your team, performing your actual task,~~ *~~and~~* ~~doing damage at the same time with various skills.~~ ~~There's more to fits that positioning and support / damage. For instance, especially while soloing certain monsters such as world bosses, the need to perform a roll-dodge to prevent a one-shot or to get out of nasty AoE affects.~~ ~~Definitely check the game out. From one MMO fan to another it's an absolute blast and is one of my favorites.~~
ESO isnt a ARPG its an MMO
Ahhhh shit. There goes under caffeinated me making a fool of myself. Thanks for pointing that out.
PoE 2.
As you didn't mention last epoch, go buy and play last epoch, it is a perfect middle ground between PoE and diablo and offers some fun boss fights, new content (patch 1.1) coming in 1-3 weeks i think, with a lot of new bosses
Last Epoch has some of the best skill syngeries in all of the ARPG genre imo
What about Hades or the pre-release but very playable Hades 2? Combat is more action/skill oriented, there is significant development of your character some of which either makes you stronger and some of which just gives you alternate skills/play styles but generally is at least intended to be balanced instead of grinding for an “I-win” button.
to be fair most games are gonna focus on one or two skills with utility the rest because thats how a good build is made. if you spread out your resources too much then youre gonna be weak on all fronts.
soul knight prequel is a mobile ARPG, that is actually quite fun and has synergistic combos, and i know mobile arpg sounds bad but its actually extremely well done.
The only way this happens is lots of cooldowns on your skills forcing you to rotate through them. This traditionally is more of an MMO thing, so I concur with others that Lost Ark is probably your best bet.
While I think the general sentiment of calling out Last Epoch is a good one, I can't help but think some of the descriptions you said remind me of other games from other genres. When you are talking about outskill and dodge the boss's attacks, I can't help but think of Elden Ring/Dark Souls/Monster Hunter series. The very definition of a genre that wants you to learn to "outskill" your opponents. When I think of games that have rotations and/or combos of abilities, I can't help but think of time/turn based RPGs, like Divinity Original Sin 2/Baldurs Gate 3/Pillars of Eternity and several other CRPGs. ------ Another "minimalist" idea, is to flip the whole description on it's head, and say that Vampire Survivors, and it's clone games might scratch the itch if you are willing to give them the chance. It's not necessarily what you were describing, but it definitely fits the bill of games with relatively fast looting/killing cycles, needing to pay attention, but not needing to 'always' be fully paying attention, and having a wide array of skills to use and combine together to make a different build every time.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale? > *“We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land.”* - Solaire of Astora Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
Lost Ark has very good combat. Before the stones. Huge disclaimers. It is not a loot-based game. It is a group-based game. It is also very grindy, in a time-gated way. BUT! They just announced **solo** raids for the Korean version. Which means the global release should get them not too long after. Now, the game is not one I would normally recommend, but it is free and the combat requires a good amount of skills. Bosses don't just fold, they have patterns, mechanics, the whole circus. Once the solo version of raids are released I think it might be worth visiting considering the price tag.
I dont mind even spending money on Lost Ark if I can get reasonably strong without needing to p2w too much I didn't play it because I heard bad things about bots and finding raids in earlier tiers is it better now? I actually would prefer group play honestly
Just keep in mind LA is not seasonal arpg format its an mmo, daily quests, weekly raids, daily dungeons, and you need to have 1000 alts and do same on those, everyday
I actually prefer one button mashers, it’s why could not get into Lost Ark, maybe Check that out ? Maybe no rest for the wicked ?
Diablo 1, the best ARPG! It definitely requires skills. Now you mentioned you played Diablo games so maybe you already played this.
I think no rest for the wicked is kind of like this. It’s a souls like arpg
Nioh. Something of a souls-like. But dodging at the right time won't get you too far. You need to learn a lot of different mechanics.
Give answer to the man. Only repeat Last Epoch has scaling Last Epoch has scaling....WTF?
If you can make it work on modern pc(maybe gog has it) I recommend sacred 1
Try torchlight 2 on veteran. Way harder then most arpgs now adays.
If you want the best end game combat that is always unique and fast pace Lost Ark. Downside of Lost Ark is it is more like an MMO and requires a huge time commitment and a stable group.
I did give it a try again, but tbh none of the class archetypes interested me too much I spent a long time researching it and just couldn't find a class that jelled with me. I'd probably just play dungeon fighter online or something instead like another mmo but I prefer games with solo progression (I know lost arks getting solo raids soon)
Grim Dawn.
Lol Grim Dawn is the poster boy of the one button wonder
Really? When I tried playing it I can't remember the class but atleast early on it seemed to rely on one main skill. I got it with all the dlc got any recommendations for class combos with depth?
You'll usually have one primary damage skill, but you'll still have a dodge, a move skill, at least one resistance shred skill, oftentimes a heal or an 'oh s***' button... If you want multiple button presses, I'd suggest Demolitionist plus something else, or Occultist plus something else. Demo gives 2 different resistance shred skills, as well as a couple different options for primary damage skills. Occultist gives a good shred skill, a burst heal, and a couple options for damage skills. Just pick a second mastery that supports your chosen damage type.
Wrong. Grim Dawn also falls into that mindless left-click pitfall. Enemies are no more than HP sponges and won't require you to swap your skills in terms of outskilling them in the slightest.
Wrong genre.
What genre should it be?
Whole point of an ARPG is to zoom and collect loot.
Well yes, the diablo-esque ones. But what genre should it be then? I am asking so I can look for it
ARPGs (Diablo, PoE, LE, GD etc) the goal is to press one button to kill everything as fast as possible. If you want more combat complexity or more buttons then it's just RPG. Skyrim, Souls, Elden Ring, Fallout etc
Hate to be that guy, but no. That is for the ARPG’s that are focused to be like a Diablo-esque game. Hogwarts Legacy I think is even considered an ARPG. Elden Ring is literally an Action Role Playing Game. Read first sentence [Elden Ring](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elden_Ring)
when people think of ARPGS now they mean diablo esquer type games, it really should have its own genre but most people think of isometric looters as ARPGs.
The point of genres is to sort similar games, and none of the games you listed are similar. Diablo-likes are H'n'S games under the ARPG genre, under the CRPG genre. Hogwarts Legacy is an Action-Adventure game under the Adventure genre. Elden Ring is a Souls-like under Spectacle Fighters under JRPG's, under CRPG's.