I think it might be more of a modern theory in astrology as almost anything I have tried to find on degrees in astrology doesn't date back further than 2020.
Yeah I don’t really use contemporary theories like that, I find the traditional stuff to be the most pragmatic and useful. Only stuff modern offers for me is info on the outer planets, as well as some of the newer psychological interpretations but I take those with a grain of salt
Sabian Symbols are from the 1920s if that means anything. I’ve been studying them for the past few months and they do have some interesting connections if my opinion matters at all.
(23 due to the 22nd degree actually being the 23rd)
Aires 23: Creative assertiveness towards furtherment of potentials
Taurus 23: Improving upon Nature
Gemini 23: New levels of spiritual integration
Cancer 23: Learning the hidden language of image and metaphor
Leo 23: Audacity and daring
Virgo 23: Overcoming prideful self-love
Libra 23: Speaking out what we know to be true
Scorpio 23: Transforming baser instincts
Sagittarius 23: Courageously discovering our place in life
Capricorn 23: Recognition of the heroic efforts of others on different paths
Aquarius 23: Demonstration of self-control
Pisces 23: Notice how people suffer and live in confusion
Personally I find the 18th degree of Capricorn as the hardest degree: Coping with the tyranny of unconscious people.
[Sabian Symbols](https://www.jamesburgess.com/list-of-sabians)
Very grateful to have seen this post. I wasn’t aware of Sabian symbols. I have that 18 cap! I will ponder it for some time. It does somewhat fit my perspective and nature. May you be happy bringer of knowledge!
Greetings D,
It should be noted that the Sabian Symbols were originally "created" by having a Master Astrologer, \*hiring\* a clairvoyant. In a mediumistic trance state, the Astrologer would mention a specific degree within a sign, and the Clairvoyant (with no knowledge of Astrology) would relay whatever "vision" came into their consciousness.
The most accurate of all was the late, Astrologer/Numerologist, Isidore Kozminksy. His book, "Symbols of the Zodiac," was the best primary source of this information.
Astrologers who came after, such as Damon Runyon and Alan Leo, hired their own psychics, and put out their own versions. Again, Kozminksy's is the crown jewel of this information.
The above list is merely another person's version, and should not be mistaken for the original work, which I mention. The above list is overly simplified, and not as detailed as the work I mention.
Also, the Fixed Stars, which occur at some of the same degrees as the Sabian Symbols, take precedence.
I hope this information will shed more light on the subject. \~V\~ (Professional Astrologer)
The above list is the simplified version of the degrees, the website near the bottom lists each degree with a written and video interpretation.
Also, there are 360 sabian symbols so I’m not sure what you mean by a larger set of degrees (fixed stars) taking precedence. That’s like saying a decan is more important than a term. It’s just another layer of interpretation.
Greetings D,
I was finally able to see NS' incorrect attributions of his "degree system." Thanks for your kind clarification.
What I mean by the Fixed Stars "taking precedence" over the Sabian Symbols, is that the original lore of the Fixed Stars comes from ancient sources. The Sabian Symbols are linked to "psychic lore" obtained by Clairvoyants who "envisioned" esoteric parables about each of the 360º -- such as Kozminksy, Dany Rudyar and Allan Leo, etc.
Indeed, all of these ideas are linked to various interpretations. Thanks again, ~V~
Greetings S,
Glad you are checking it out. Even though K (and the Sabian symbols) were "created" using the help of a Clairvoyant, I find K's info is incredibly accurate. I even use it as additional food-for-thought in my professional Astrological readings.
On an interesting side-note, I am also a professional Clairvoyant, and have researched those visions myself, and was quite impressed by their accuracy on both levels. ~V~
That is comforting that you agree!!
Doing accurate clairvoyant vision interpretation of 360 different degrees is an extraordinarily ambitious and daunting project.
Greetings S,
I scryed the visions, over a period of time, and had not originally set out to do so.
I use them also as a means to understand the lore of the degrees of Fixed Stars, to see if they had any further correlations. They certainly did.
I started reading this information quite young, even before I became a professional Astrologer, as my family (also Astrologers) happened to have this book in our library. I am quite certain that by following some of the advice I got from this book, has saved my life a few times, by remembering the words I read there. K's Sabian Symbols accurately reflect the ancient info relating to specific degrees of the Zodiac.
Also of note, these same bits of info on K's Sabian symbols, work well with master levels of Tarot.
Btw, NONE of the other versions of the Sabian symbols have proven accurate (imo). I've studied all the books written on the subject, always looking for more fascinating info on the subject. Thanks for the pleasant convo. ~V~
Hi, so I see you round up for the Sabian Symbols, which I read in a book too, but do you ever round down, for example if it's below 30'? Or do you always round up even if it's like 01'? I've been looking into sabian symbols too and I'm trying to include the original number to compare. Thank you!
That’s a great question! They label each whole degree range through a sign.
Degree 0 through 1 is “Aires 1”
Degree 1 through 2 is “Aires 2”
Degree 2 through 3 is “Aires 3”
…
Degree 29 through 30 is “Aires 30”
So each whole degree is represented by the name of the Sabian Symbol (Aires 1)
If you wanna know what the degree mean that's for the nakshatras. The degree tells you the nakshatra (constellations) that the zodiac sign is in. This gives specific info.
It was discovered by a Serbian astrologer Nikolai something. If you search him up on YouTube there are videos about it including interviews with him. His book is out of print but if you email his wife, she'll give you a copy inexpensively. I'm going to ask her someday.
Greetings L,
Sabian Symbols are subjective -- they were only meant to add another dimension of understanding. They are quite interesting, and the Kozminksy version is incredibly accurate. \~V\~
I have multiple planets in my chart at 22 degrees (even mars!) and I have never understood this theory.
I’m not saying there can’t be some merit to it. But why 22?
It's literally made up nonsense. 22 degree in Gemini doesn't mean the same thing as 22° in Virgo or Scorpio or whatever. The degrees align with the nakshatras aka the constellations.
I believe it might have something to do with it being a Capricorn degree and Capricorn being ruled by Saturn maybe but going based on that you think it someone would either be more disciplined or maybe need to be disciplined in that area of their life?
No. Degree theory is not real or legitimate astrology. It completely throws out and disregards the bounds, decans, and dodecatemoria of each planet. How can 2° Scorpio be a “Taurus degree” if it’s within the bound of Mars? Yes I’ve seen the 22° show up in charts, no they weren’t killers or murder victims (obviously).
Greetings P,
Exactly... the pop Astrologers are clawing for recognition, and clients based on a rebranding of existing information. The term was invented. \~V\~
It's a Titanic degree point as far as I remember but I'd have to check. (As in, the event charts, victims' and survivors' charts tend to have 22 degrees of the cardinal signs in them, including authors and film makers, even actors of books and movies about the disaster.
The discoverer of degree theory, Nikola something, didn't ascribe that much importance to 23 though. It's only bad in certain situations depending on the chart. It's just one thing in a chart, like a debilitated malefic or exalted benefic doesn't make or break a chart.
Logic and environment also affect how charts manifest. Like a medieval study of a King of England and some dude born in the same time and area so they had identical natal charts. Their life events including deaths matched up perfectly, but on the day the king was crowned, did the random dude become a king? Nope, he received the official signature to open his own business, which was successful. Their family of birth determined how high they could rise. So did the society (it was an absolute monarchy dictatorship. In a democracy, perhaps both would have decided to be politicians that day, or both would have been promoted at work).
I’ve read MANY books. Name one single book that talks about the 22nd degree being “Kill or Being Killed” if not then you should probably shut the fuck up.
I got a reading from Nikola Stojanović himself, aka the guy who pioneered Degree Theory and coined 22° as “kill or be killed.” I have 22° in my chart. He was super blasé about it.
Don’t worry about it.
Greetings M,
With due respect, the person you mention did \*not\* pioneer the Degree Theory, he just gave it a new name. Also, he is incorrect at the 22nd Degree, which I explain in an above comment. \~V\~
Never heard of this. Reminds me of the “catch-22” paradox. Not to underplay it, but is there any chance that “catch-22” is the root of this idea?
The problem too is that if you get to a detailed enough level in one area of astrological interpretation, there’s a good likelihood that you are still not getting detailed enough in other areas of astrological interpretation that could offset or at least further illuminate the original area you were looking at. And then people stress themselves out without having enough information.
Best of luck.
This is not an accepted astrological technique. This degree theory was made up by a modern astrologer and it caught on with pop social media astrology. There is no astrological research to back this theory up but it makes for a real splashy social media astro content.
Greetings D,
This technique was developed by famed Astrologer, Isidore Kozminksy back in the late 1800's. His book, "Symbols of Astrology" was the first "modern" book to delve deeply into the subject, with great accuracy.
However, the pop Astrologers are doing their best to dig up something that hasn't been plundered yet, thus, the "new" information. \~V\~
You are confused this is a whole other theory by a Serbian astrologer named Stojanovic who didn’t die that long ago. And he didn’t base his theory on much of anything which is the issue. It’s a bunch of shit that sounds flashy to folks in a post but means nothing.
Greetings D,
Thanks for your helpful comment -- the confusion arose from NS using the term "degrees," and lifting it, and using it in a way that was misleading. I've researched him, and his method. I totally agree with you, that it means nothing, and here's what I discovered:
NS took the number 1, and used it to delineate House #1, and onward (attributing Taurus to the number #2), Gemini #3, etc.
Then, he went around the Zodiac again -- and when he got back to Aries, he ascribed the #13 to it, Taurus #14, etc.
Then he went around the Zodiac for a third time, and attributed #27 to Aries, and onward.
Through this random method, he managed to get only 2 numbers to accurately correlate, however vaguely.
This method of degrees he used, was purely arbitrary -- it has no basis in the actual attribution of Astrological degrees, not Numerologically, nor even Qabalistically.
The original degree method was used by Kozminsky, as I mentioned -- and I can see that NS' "version" has nothing to do with anything substantial regarding Astrology, which can be used in a meaningful way. But, I certainly thank you. I hope this will serve to clarify my statements. Blessings, ~V~
Oh god, give it a read. There’s a lot of “background” you might call it, but it’s essentially a hot mess of supposition and superstition masquerading as “theory.” I walk away from it a bit woozy and depressed.
The quickie version: 22 is the achieved master, teaching through demonstration, through presence. If you have a 22 placement, it’s possible that you don’t even realize your mastery and tend to assume everyone knows what you know. It comes from the 2 of union and is reinforced with an awareness that we are all connected, adding up to the 4 of stability.
There’s more to each number than a few sentences (like a sign or house) and there’s always the context of the whole chart.
this is curious to me bc my NN is 22 Aries H5. If the NN is what you're learning and gaining more of in this lifetime, how does concept of 'acheived master' apply in that sense? I am also ruminating on that degree as a SN placement--also doesn't seem clear to me...if you have thoughts on how to frame my self observations here, I would love to hear more. I'm always feeling very unsure about understanding my experience of the nodes..
I like to call your north node (NN) your North Star. Purpose and goal are often used though I tend to North Star because it implies a direction versus a task or specific thing. It’s the souls chosen path for growth and following it throughout life brings fulfillment.
The south node (SN) shows specific karmic experiences you’re using to follow your NN. The SN isn’t something to abandon or avoid, it’s a launching off point. The nodes are opposite each other because only by doing the opposite of what you’ve been doing repeatedly will you stimulate new growth. The point is to use the SN while not staying focused on it.
The whole chart is connected and so the SN adds a layer to the specific lives shown in the chart and the NN informs in some way all the other lessons shown in the chart.
The degree on the node adds to reading the nodes just like the signs, houses, aspects, zones, etc. Each has meaning though the gold is in their combination. The 22 shows that that you’re both seeking some mastery in this life while also calling on some abilities you’ve cultivated. This can play out in many ways.
One possible challenge includes a tendency to expect yourself to know more than you do or to more quickly master something than is reasonable to expect. Just because you’re good at one thing doesn’t mean you’re automatically great at everything, yet somehow you may get caught up in that. You can expect so much of yourself (more than is reasonable based on where you’re at) then also question your abilities because somehow your skills aren’t propelling you forward as fast as you think they should.
There aren’t simple 2 sentence definitions of the degrees that define them. It’s about understanding their meaning and integrating those meanings into how each piece is read and shown within the chart.
I hope this is helpful to you.
So it has to do with a lot of prominent people (who have died in public/graphic ways or killed others before dying. Victims also have a 22° placement commonly, not always) having a prominent planet at 22°. There’s both metaphorical and literal manifestations of the degree (apparently) but sources will tell you about the “kill or be killed” aspect of it. Really, 22° could be interpreted as “prominent happenings”. These manifest as a sort of “end” or “death” that the native feels throughout life. They may always feel there are “dead” in that area of life and are beating a dead horse standing there on the same path. It’s a sign of change, but chaotic change. It’s not like a scorpio degree where you KNOW you’re supposed to learn a lesson and move on. Instead, it’s like a sudden happening that wakes up the native and the people around them to take action. “Death” ends a cycle but there’s an afterwards according to most theology. For astrology, it’s reincarnation (usually). There is always something meant to happen after an event, even if it’s people going about their thing.
Aspects always have and will play a role in whether a placement is beneficial to the native or not. However, 22° is a mix of the two. It is chaos and progress, growth and ruckus, and the peace after the storm (it’s also the storm). This is how I’ve interpreted it and it grows the more charts I read. A cool concept, not always executed the way one expects.
That's a brilliant, balanced and very informative explanation, thanks. Do you know of any books or blogs I can read for more information on this? I've been looking for a while. I'm interested in faces and decans too.
Degree theory-if you think about it, it could not be accurate because of the slow-moving planets. Think about how many people would have Pluto (a generational planet) or even Neptune, Uranus, and Saturn in a critical degree... all these people in every country throughout the world. The math isn't mathing. Degree theory does not look at aspects to other planets with regard to critical degrees. I feel like this is where it misses the mark. I don't place much credibility into it.
There are multiple degree theories, including Nikolai Stojanovic’s. Degrees can even be associated with intervals of time and ages you might experience certain events. But degree theories are just that- *theories*. For the people that use it, it works for them. There’s critical degree theory, and I feel like that one has been around for a really long time (and I personally use them in my practice, but I don’t use Stojanovic’s).
it is in my experience, though kill or be killed is more of an exaggeration of the energy it transmits. in short, what I observe is that the energy regulated by the planet in this degree has a potential to put you in close calls with death or bring your demise if the querent isn’t mindful of it, but the house that planet resides in is also important. for example, I have Mars in 2H at 22° and impulsive decisions, loosing my temper and getting into arguments have put me into close calls with death. I know people with Scorpio ASC at 22° that have had hidden enemies try to actively sabotage them or cause their ruin, they have to be careful about the company they keep and who they open up to.
Honestly from looking into degree theory I’ve found NOTHING of substance as far as symbolism goes. My ASC at 17° Scorpio is either represented by a woman impregnating herself… or the woods in autumn… or a man peeping on a woman playing with a snake 🤨 depending on who you listen to. It’s complete nonsense and adds nothing, people just say whatever.
If anything I get the idea the degrees could denote your level of understanding of a particular placement. It’s the idea that a 0° Aries Mars in a natal chart wouldn’t be as well integrated or disciplined as a 29° Aries Mars.
Contrary to the people who haven't heard this before, I've actually heard this "theory" so often that I wonder if there's some significance to it on an external level, like it helped popularize astrology. People are intrigued when they hear "kill or be killed" and start asking around about it. And perhaps another interpretation of is that it could "exist or not exist" for us. Wouldn't it be great if we could somehow get the moment of its conception? Maybe some heavy Neptune or Pisces placements were involved. Thinking of it now, Neptune has been in Pisces since 2011...
I have obsessively studied the charts of both convicted killers and their victims(I have adhd ok?! 😆) and I’ve found it does tend to appear in these charts more than not. With that said, there are many charts with the “kill or be killed” degree that have been neither a perpetrator or a victim.
Usually in the charts of killers/victims with this degree, it is triggered by a progressed planet and/or transit at the time of the crime.
Me and my son both have Pluto at 22 degrees and we aren't dead yet *knocks on wood* however, I will say since it is Pluto, both of us have had plenty of metaphorical deaths and rebirths in our lifetime.
I don't like to hone in on certain degrees to mean either death, fame, or marriage etc. While I'm not dismissing that the degrees are special, I think transits play into death more than just a natal degree.
I’m one of the few people who do agree with degree theory. I seen a man with 11deg sun in Libra representing divorce. Divorce of him from his overbearing, culturally astute parents! I predicted this based off of planet placements & deg theory. My ex had 22deg conjunct moon & Saturn in Scorpio opposite Venus. His ex girlfriend took his daughter to another country and he was forced to live there. Then, when he had a wife (aka me), our child passed unexpectedly. It’s the embodiment of kill or be killed, it doesn’t always mean death but it definitely can, especially in such a crucial placement as he had. Another example, I have Pisces degree sun in Libra representing lethargy and understanding the unknown. I embody these traits (problems with energy & food), I understand things people can’t generally see. You really need the whole picture of the chart, degree theory is a sprinkle on top. If I can’t see how a planet is exerting its energy on the persons life, I look to Deg theory
Greetings L,
Sounds like more of the pop Astrology from TT. Some of the most illustrious people have 22º degrees in their charts.
Musician, Jimmy Page has his Vertex in Gemini at 22º; JK Rowling has her Jupiter at 22º Gemini, and there are many others.
I've been researching and using Degrees, Fixed Stars, and associated Sabian symbols for decades. The only Sabian symbols worth noting are by the late, great Isidore Kozminksy.
They may be confusing it Qabalistically with the Master Number 22, which is associated with world domination. \~V\~ (Professional Astrologer)
Just another silly superstition people made up....22° is just a Capricorn degree and it'll some Capricorn qualities. Just the 18th degree, I heard many say it's a bad one and Leo Venus at 18°. I have no issues.
Are there certain signs or planets or houses this is specific to? Seems odd for it to be a blanket thing.
Regardless remember progressed charts allow for some dynamic changes and evolution in charts.
I’m always wary of using it for something related to death. My dad had his mars in Aquarius in the 8th house and experienced a sudden death while out on a run with my mom in 9/19. I have my mars rx in the 8th house as well but in Leo.
I’ve seen those Vedic readings (my mars is in the same house and sign for both tropical and Vedic, but trop is 29* and Vedic is like 0 or something) saying I’ll also die suddenly in some kind of firey crash or something. Which is slightly terrifying given that the night before my dad died I had a dream he sheltered me from an atomic bomb exploding and when I got up he had been vaporized and was totally gone. ANYWAY. My point is that these kinds of readings are more harmful than good and you really never know what it means until after. For one person, like my dad, it was literal. For another. Hopefully me, it will be a spiritual transformation. Although since it’s aspecting Pluto in 12 (and that sign is 0) it’s still a lil spooky. Long story short, now I am haunted by the readings—proving it’s more baggage than anything.
I have Chiron in Gemini at 22° in my 8th house conjunct my sun by 2 degrees. No one has killed me yet, and I haven't killed anyone either. I have however, had a very difficult and painful life caused mostly because of other people's choices (born into a family that traffics children, and in a cult, etc.) that made me feel I might want to kill someone or they might want to kill me, particularly in my bio family. Thankfully I got away from them.
I believe that is the 29 degree, also known as the anaretic degree. It is considered harsh due to the pressure of having to fulfill the obligations of the sign/planet. Which can come off as “kill or be killed.” I have my moon in my solar return chart at 29 degrees in the 4th house, and it happens to also be in my natal moon sign of scorpio. I can tell you, it truly is how it is described. The decisions I am having to make regarding my home life will be irreversible, but also will help me to overcome so many of my obstacles. The pressure of this degree is meant to crystallize you into perfection, and it’s hard earned accomplishment.
Lighten up, Francis. Firstly, I only meant read Stojanovic — he’s the guy that talks about degree theory (which you didn’t know), not that you should read more astrology in general, although that’s good advice for everyone. And secondly, we’ve decided you should definitely read more about Venus, because you’re a crispy little devil, aren’t you?
I’ve never heard of this before
I think it might be more of a modern theory in astrology as almost anything I have tried to find on degrees in astrology doesn't date back further than 2020.
Yeah I don’t really use contemporary theories like that, I find the traditional stuff to be the most pragmatic and useful. Only stuff modern offers for me is info on the outer planets, as well as some of the newer psychological interpretations but I take those with a grain of salt
Sabian Symbols are from the 1920s if that means anything. I’ve been studying them for the past few months and they do have some interesting connections if my opinion matters at all. (23 due to the 22nd degree actually being the 23rd) Aires 23: Creative assertiveness towards furtherment of potentials Taurus 23: Improving upon Nature Gemini 23: New levels of spiritual integration Cancer 23: Learning the hidden language of image and metaphor Leo 23: Audacity and daring Virgo 23: Overcoming prideful self-love Libra 23: Speaking out what we know to be true Scorpio 23: Transforming baser instincts Sagittarius 23: Courageously discovering our place in life Capricorn 23: Recognition of the heroic efforts of others on different paths Aquarius 23: Demonstration of self-control Pisces 23: Notice how people suffer and live in confusion Personally I find the 18th degree of Capricorn as the hardest degree: Coping with the tyranny of unconscious people. [Sabian Symbols](https://www.jamesburgess.com/list-of-sabians)
Very grateful to have seen this post. I wasn’t aware of Sabian symbols. I have that 18 cap! I will ponder it for some time. It does somewhat fit my perspective and nature. May you be happy bringer of knowledge!
Greetings D, It should be noted that the Sabian Symbols were originally "created" by having a Master Astrologer, \*hiring\* a clairvoyant. In a mediumistic trance state, the Astrologer would mention a specific degree within a sign, and the Clairvoyant (with no knowledge of Astrology) would relay whatever "vision" came into their consciousness. The most accurate of all was the late, Astrologer/Numerologist, Isidore Kozminksy. His book, "Symbols of the Zodiac," was the best primary source of this information. Astrologers who came after, such as Damon Runyon and Alan Leo, hired their own psychics, and put out their own versions. Again, Kozminksy's is the crown jewel of this information. The above list is merely another person's version, and should not be mistaken for the original work, which I mention. The above list is overly simplified, and not as detailed as the work I mention. Also, the Fixed Stars, which occur at some of the same degrees as the Sabian Symbols, take precedence. I hope this information will shed more light on the subject. \~V\~ (Professional Astrologer)
The above list is the simplified version of the degrees, the website near the bottom lists each degree with a written and video interpretation. Also, there are 360 sabian symbols so I’m not sure what you mean by a larger set of degrees (fixed stars) taking precedence. That’s like saying a decan is more important than a term. It’s just another layer of interpretation.
Greetings D, I was finally able to see NS' incorrect attributions of his "degree system." Thanks for your kind clarification. What I mean by the Fixed Stars "taking precedence" over the Sabian Symbols, is that the original lore of the Fixed Stars comes from ancient sources. The Sabian Symbols are linked to "psychic lore" obtained by Clairvoyants who "envisioned" esoteric parables about each of the 360º -- such as Kozminksy, Dany Rudyar and Allan Leo, etc. Indeed, all of these ideas are linked to various interpretations. Thanks again, ~V~
I have Kosminsky as well as the Sabian. Interesting material.
Greetings S, Glad you are checking it out. Even though K (and the Sabian symbols) were "created" using the help of a Clairvoyant, I find K's info is incredibly accurate. I even use it as additional food-for-thought in my professional Astrological readings. On an interesting side-note, I am also a professional Clairvoyant, and have researched those visions myself, and was quite impressed by their accuracy on both levels. ~V~
That is comforting that you agree!! Doing accurate clairvoyant vision interpretation of 360 different degrees is an extraordinarily ambitious and daunting project.
Greetings S, I scryed the visions, over a period of time, and had not originally set out to do so. I use them also as a means to understand the lore of the degrees of Fixed Stars, to see if they had any further correlations. They certainly did. I started reading this information quite young, even before I became a professional Astrologer, as my family (also Astrologers) happened to have this book in our library. I am quite certain that by following some of the advice I got from this book, has saved my life a few times, by remembering the words I read there. K's Sabian Symbols accurately reflect the ancient info relating to specific degrees of the Zodiac. Also of note, these same bits of info on K's Sabian symbols, work well with master levels of Tarot. Btw, NONE of the other versions of the Sabian symbols have proven accurate (imo). I've studied all the books written on the subject, always looking for more fascinating info on the subject. Thanks for the pleasant convo. ~V~
Thank YOU for this information!
Hi, so I see you round up for the Sabian Symbols, which I read in a book too, but do you ever round down, for example if it's below 30'? Or do you always round up even if it's like 01'? I've been looking into sabian symbols too and I'm trying to include the original number to compare. Thank you!
That’s a great question! They label each whole degree range through a sign. Degree 0 through 1 is “Aires 1” Degree 1 through 2 is “Aires 2” Degree 2 through 3 is “Aires 3” … Degree 29 through 30 is “Aires 30” So each whole degree is represented by the name of the Sabian Symbol (Aires 1)
If you wanna know what the degree mean that's for the nakshatras. The degree tells you the nakshatra (constellations) that the zodiac sign is in. This gives specific info.
Greetings M, The degrees are used for much more than Vedic Astrology. \~V\~
It was discovered by a Serbian astrologer Nikolai something. If you search him up on YouTube there are videos about it including interviews with him. His book is out of print but if you email his wife, she'll give you a copy inexpensively. I'm going to ask her someday.
Can you please share her e-mail?
i feel like degree theory kinda overcomplicates bounds and terms of a sign
Yeah I am finding it a little confusing but I do find them somewhat interesting to look into.
Greetings L, Sabian Symbols are subjective -- they were only meant to add another dimension of understanding. They are quite interesting, and the Kozminksy version is incredibly accurate. \~V\~
I have multiple planets in my chart at 22 degrees (even mars!) and I have never understood this theory. I’m not saying there can’t be some merit to it. But why 22?
It's literally made up nonsense. 22 degree in Gemini doesn't mean the same thing as 22° in Virgo or Scorpio or whatever. The degrees align with the nakshatras aka the constellations.
I think it’s to pay homage to the Taylor Swift song but I could be wrong o.0 /s
If that’s the case then please kill it 😫
I believe it might have something to do with it being a Capricorn degree and Capricorn being ruled by Saturn maybe but going based on that you think it someone would either be more disciplined or maybe need to be disciplined in that area of their life?
No. Degree theory is not real or legitimate astrology. It completely throws out and disregards the bounds, decans, and dodecatemoria of each planet. How can 2° Scorpio be a “Taurus degree” if it’s within the bound of Mars? Yes I’ve seen the 22° show up in charts, no they weren’t killers or murder victims (obviously).
Thank goodness 🙏
I keep hearing about this kill or be killed theory but none of the traditional astrology books I’ve read have ever mentioned it.
Greetings P, Exactly... the pop Astrologers are clawing for recognition, and clients based on a rebranding of existing information. The term was invented. \~V\~
It's a Titanic degree point as far as I remember but I'd have to check. (As in, the event charts, victims' and survivors' charts tend to have 22 degrees of the cardinal signs in them, including authors and film makers, even actors of books and movies about the disaster. The discoverer of degree theory, Nikola something, didn't ascribe that much importance to 23 though. It's only bad in certain situations depending on the chart. It's just one thing in a chart, like a debilitated malefic or exalted benefic doesn't make or break a chart. Logic and environment also affect how charts manifest. Like a medieval study of a King of England and some dude born in the same time and area so they had identical natal charts. Their life events including deaths matched up perfectly, but on the day the king was crowned, did the random dude become a king? Nope, he received the official signature to open his own business, which was successful. Their family of birth determined how high they could rise. So did the society (it was an absolute monarchy dictatorship. In a democracy, perhaps both would have decided to be politicians that day, or both would have been promoted at work).
Hmmm interesting, I’m going to check that out. Thank you.
Keep reading.
Sure. I’ll let you know when I read “Shit made up by random fake ass reddit astrologers and other hilarious jokes” when I get it.
Hmm. Username checks out.
No shit.
But seriously, keep reading.
I’ve read MANY books. Name one single book that talks about the 22nd degree being “Kill or Being Killed” if not then you should probably shut the fuck up.
I think people made up a bunch of stuff for tik tok clout without a ton of ground to stand on to be honest
I got a reading from Nikola Stojanović himself, aka the guy who pioneered Degree Theory and coined 22° as “kill or be killed.” I have 22° in my chart. He was super blasé about it. Don’t worry about it.
Greetings M, With due respect, the person you mention did \*not\* pioneer the Degree Theory, he just gave it a new name. Also, he is incorrect at the 22nd Degree, which I explain in an above comment. \~V\~
You’re very annoying. Blocked.
What is the name of the true pioneer and what books should we read on the subject?
Never heard of this. Reminds me of the “catch-22” paradox. Not to underplay it, but is there any chance that “catch-22” is the root of this idea? The problem too is that if you get to a detailed enough level in one area of astrological interpretation, there’s a good likelihood that you are still not getting detailed enough in other areas of astrological interpretation that could offset or at least further illuminate the original area you were looking at. And then people stress themselves out without having enough information. Best of luck.
This is not an accepted astrological technique. This degree theory was made up by a modern astrologer and it caught on with pop social media astrology. There is no astrological research to back this theory up but it makes for a real splashy social media astro content.
Greetings D, This technique was developed by famed Astrologer, Isidore Kozminksy back in the late 1800's. His book, "Symbols of Astrology" was the first "modern" book to delve deeply into the subject, with great accuracy. However, the pop Astrologers are doing their best to dig up something that hasn't been plundered yet, thus, the "new" information. \~V\~
You are confused this is a whole other theory by a Serbian astrologer named Stojanovic who didn’t die that long ago. And he didn’t base his theory on much of anything which is the issue. It’s a bunch of shit that sounds flashy to folks in a post but means nothing.
Greetings D, Thanks for your helpful comment -- the confusion arose from NS using the term "degrees," and lifting it, and using it in a way that was misleading. I've researched him, and his method. I totally agree with you, that it means nothing, and here's what I discovered: NS took the number 1, and used it to delineate House #1, and onward (attributing Taurus to the number #2), Gemini #3, etc. Then, he went around the Zodiac again -- and when he got back to Aries, he ascribed the #13 to it, Taurus #14, etc. Then he went around the Zodiac for a third time, and attributed #27 to Aries, and onward. Through this random method, he managed to get only 2 numbers to accurately correlate, however vaguely. This method of degrees he used, was purely arbitrary -- it has no basis in the actual attribution of Astrological degrees, not Numerologically, nor even Qabalistically. The original degree method was used by Kozminsky, as I mentioned -- and I can see that NS' "version" has nothing to do with anything substantial regarding Astrology, which can be used in a meaningful way. But, I certainly thank you. I hope this will serve to clarify my statements. Blessings, ~V~
To be fair to Moderns, it’s just as erroneous as, say, Decans. Astrologers from any time can be wrong.
It’s not that it’s wrong it’s that there is nothing backing it wrong or right.
Oh god, give it a read. There’s a lot of “background” you might call it, but it’s essentially a hot mess of supposition and superstition masquerading as “theory.” I walk away from it a bit woozy and depressed.
This idea is more of a modern thing that seemed to have been given legs by social media.
I have used the degrees in reading charts for 40 years and do not use this definition for 22.
Exactly. This is what I've tried to explain on this thread. Pop Astrologers proclaiming "new" ideas, to gain a following. \~V\~
What would be the definition you would associate with the 22nd degree?
The quickie version: 22 is the achieved master, teaching through demonstration, through presence. If you have a 22 placement, it’s possible that you don’t even realize your mastery and tend to assume everyone knows what you know. It comes from the 2 of union and is reinforced with an awareness that we are all connected, adding up to the 4 of stability. There’s more to each number than a few sentences (like a sign or house) and there’s always the context of the whole chart.
this is curious to me bc my NN is 22 Aries H5. If the NN is what you're learning and gaining more of in this lifetime, how does concept of 'acheived master' apply in that sense? I am also ruminating on that degree as a SN placement--also doesn't seem clear to me...if you have thoughts on how to frame my self observations here, I would love to hear more. I'm always feeling very unsure about understanding my experience of the nodes..
I like to call your north node (NN) your North Star. Purpose and goal are often used though I tend to North Star because it implies a direction versus a task or specific thing. It’s the souls chosen path for growth and following it throughout life brings fulfillment. The south node (SN) shows specific karmic experiences you’re using to follow your NN. The SN isn’t something to abandon or avoid, it’s a launching off point. The nodes are opposite each other because only by doing the opposite of what you’ve been doing repeatedly will you stimulate new growth. The point is to use the SN while not staying focused on it. The whole chart is connected and so the SN adds a layer to the specific lives shown in the chart and the NN informs in some way all the other lessons shown in the chart. The degree on the node adds to reading the nodes just like the signs, houses, aspects, zones, etc. Each has meaning though the gold is in their combination. The 22 shows that that you’re both seeking some mastery in this life while also calling on some abilities you’ve cultivated. This can play out in many ways. One possible challenge includes a tendency to expect yourself to know more than you do or to more quickly master something than is reasonable to expect. Just because you’re good at one thing doesn’t mean you’re automatically great at everything, yet somehow you may get caught up in that. You can expect so much of yourself (more than is reasonable based on where you’re at) then also question your abilities because somehow your skills aren’t propelling you forward as fast as you think they should. There aren’t simple 2 sentence definitions of the degrees that define them. It’s about understanding their meaning and integrating those meanings into how each piece is read and shown within the chart. I hope this is helpful to you.
Thank you! Gives me much to think about.
So what does it mean to have 22 degree mercury?
Greetings B, It depends on the zodiac sign it's in, as well as the house and that degree. \~V\~
I have Capricorn moon at 22° in the 9th house.... so I'm am achieved master of my emotions or inner self? Sounds nice.
I think decans are better to follow. I see a lot of “Virgo degree, etc”, and I think that’s inaccurate.
Not real at all. Read the ancient texts that astrology comes from instead of listening to randos who make stuff up.
So it has to do with a lot of prominent people (who have died in public/graphic ways or killed others before dying. Victims also have a 22° placement commonly, not always) having a prominent planet at 22°. There’s both metaphorical and literal manifestations of the degree (apparently) but sources will tell you about the “kill or be killed” aspect of it. Really, 22° could be interpreted as “prominent happenings”. These manifest as a sort of “end” or “death” that the native feels throughout life. They may always feel there are “dead” in that area of life and are beating a dead horse standing there on the same path. It’s a sign of change, but chaotic change. It’s not like a scorpio degree where you KNOW you’re supposed to learn a lesson and move on. Instead, it’s like a sudden happening that wakes up the native and the people around them to take action. “Death” ends a cycle but there’s an afterwards according to most theology. For astrology, it’s reincarnation (usually). There is always something meant to happen after an event, even if it’s people going about their thing. Aspects always have and will play a role in whether a placement is beneficial to the native or not. However, 22° is a mix of the two. It is chaos and progress, growth and ruckus, and the peace after the storm (it’s also the storm). This is how I’ve interpreted it and it grows the more charts I read. A cool concept, not always executed the way one expects.
what’s the rationale for this interpretation? i have asc at 22 but what you explained i would attribute to 8h aries stellium in my life
That's a brilliant, balanced and very informative explanation, thanks. Do you know of any books or blogs I can read for more information on this? I've been looking for a while. I'm interested in faces and decans too.
Degree theory-if you think about it, it could not be accurate because of the slow-moving planets. Think about how many people would have Pluto (a generational planet) or even Neptune, Uranus, and Saturn in a critical degree... all these people in every country throughout the world. The math isn't mathing. Degree theory does not look at aspects to other planets with regard to critical degrees. I feel like this is where it misses the mark. I don't place much credibility into it.
There are multiple degree theories, including Nikolai Stojanovic’s. Degrees can even be associated with intervals of time and ages you might experience certain events. But degree theories are just that- *theories*. For the people that use it, it works for them. There’s critical degree theory, and I feel like that one has been around for a really long time (and I personally use them in my practice, but I don’t use Stojanovic’s).
it is in my experience, though kill or be killed is more of an exaggeration of the energy it transmits. in short, what I observe is that the energy regulated by the planet in this degree has a potential to put you in close calls with death or bring your demise if the querent isn’t mindful of it, but the house that planet resides in is also important. for example, I have Mars in 2H at 22° and impulsive decisions, loosing my temper and getting into arguments have put me into close calls with death. I know people with Scorpio ASC at 22° that have had hidden enemies try to actively sabotage them or cause their ruin, they have to be careful about the company they keep and who they open up to.
I have Virgo Venus at 22 degrees and I find it funny that my rap name was Killa 🤣🤣🤣
That's pretty funny 🤣
Honestly from looking into degree theory I’ve found NOTHING of substance as far as symbolism goes. My ASC at 17° Scorpio is either represented by a woman impregnating herself… or the woods in autumn… or a man peeping on a woman playing with a snake 🤨 depending on who you listen to. It’s complete nonsense and adds nothing, people just say whatever. If anything I get the idea the degrees could denote your level of understanding of a particular placement. It’s the idea that a 0° Aries Mars in a natal chart wouldn’t be as well integrated or disciplined as a 29° Aries Mars.
Contrary to the people who haven't heard this before, I've actually heard this "theory" so often that I wonder if there's some significance to it on an external level, like it helped popularize astrology. People are intrigued when they hear "kill or be killed" and start asking around about it. And perhaps another interpretation of is that it could "exist or not exist" for us. Wouldn't it be great if we could somehow get the moment of its conception? Maybe some heavy Neptune or Pisces placements were involved. Thinking of it now, Neptune has been in Pisces since 2011... 
Degree theory is fun but its not to be taken super seriously imo
I have obsessively studied the charts of both convicted killers and their victims(I have adhd ok?! 😆) and I’ve found it does tend to appear in these charts more than not. With that said, there are many charts with the “kill or be killed” degree that have been neither a perpetrator or a victim. Usually in the charts of killers/victims with this degree, it is triggered by a progressed planet and/or transit at the time of the crime.
Me and my son both have Pluto at 22 degrees and we aren't dead yet *knocks on wood* however, I will say since it is Pluto, both of us have had plenty of metaphorical deaths and rebirths in our lifetime. I don't like to hone in on certain degrees to mean either death, fame, or marriage etc. While I'm not dismissing that the degrees are special, I think transits play into death more than just a natal degree.
I have a Sagittarius Pluto in the 3rd house at 22 degrees. It isn´t heavily aspected but otherwise I have no idea what it means.
I’m one of the few people who do agree with degree theory. I seen a man with 11deg sun in Libra representing divorce. Divorce of him from his overbearing, culturally astute parents! I predicted this based off of planet placements & deg theory. My ex had 22deg conjunct moon & Saturn in Scorpio opposite Venus. His ex girlfriend took his daughter to another country and he was forced to live there. Then, when he had a wife (aka me), our child passed unexpectedly. It’s the embodiment of kill or be killed, it doesn’t always mean death but it definitely can, especially in such a crucial placement as he had. Another example, I have Pisces degree sun in Libra representing lethargy and understanding the unknown. I embody these traits (problems with energy & food), I understand things people can’t generally see. You really need the whole picture of the chart, degree theory is a sprinkle on top. If I can’t see how a planet is exerting its energy on the persons life, I look to Deg theory
Greetings L, Sounds like more of the pop Astrology from TT. Some of the most illustrious people have 22º degrees in their charts. Musician, Jimmy Page has his Vertex in Gemini at 22º; JK Rowling has her Jupiter at 22º Gemini, and there are many others. I've been researching and using Degrees, Fixed Stars, and associated Sabian symbols for decades. The only Sabian symbols worth noting are by the late, great Isidore Kozminksy. They may be confusing it Qabalistically with the Master Number 22, which is associated with world domination. \~V\~ (Professional Astrologer)
I personally believe this 22 degree thing is hogwash. I would look to the 22 degrees of the sabian symbols and go by that.
Just another silly superstition people made up....22° is just a Capricorn degree and it'll some Capricorn qualities. Just the 18th degree, I heard many say it's a bad one and Leo Venus at 18°. I have no issues.
Are there certain signs or planets or houses this is specific to? Seems odd for it to be a blanket thing. Regardless remember progressed charts allow for some dynamic changes and evolution in charts. I’m always wary of using it for something related to death. My dad had his mars in Aquarius in the 8th house and experienced a sudden death while out on a run with my mom in 9/19. I have my mars rx in the 8th house as well but in Leo. I’ve seen those Vedic readings (my mars is in the same house and sign for both tropical and Vedic, but trop is 29* and Vedic is like 0 or something) saying I’ll also die suddenly in some kind of firey crash or something. Which is slightly terrifying given that the night before my dad died I had a dream he sheltered me from an atomic bomb exploding and when I got up he had been vaporized and was totally gone. ANYWAY. My point is that these kinds of readings are more harmful than good and you really never know what it means until after. For one person, like my dad, it was literal. For another. Hopefully me, it will be a spiritual transformation. Although since it’s aspecting Pluto in 12 (and that sign is 0) it’s still a lil spooky. Long story short, now I am haunted by the readings—proving it’s more baggage than anything.
I have Pluto at 22degrees Scorpio in the 3rd house I am a Virgo ascendant and Idfk what anything means 😂
I have Pluto at 22 Virgo, nodes at 22 Aries/Libra.... Should I be scared? Wtf does kill or be killed mean? When something transits those points?
No no it's just a discussion on the 22nd degree. I just tried to make the title catchy so people would join the discussion.
I have Chiron in Gemini at 22° in my 8th house conjunct my sun by 2 degrees. No one has killed me yet, and I haven't killed anyone either. I have however, had a very difficult and painful life caused mostly because of other people's choices (born into a family that traffics children, and in a cult, etc.) that made me feel I might want to kill someone or they might want to kill me, particularly in my bio family. Thankfully I got away from them.
I have my sun on the 22nd degree of Gemini in the 4th house, and I also have Uranus in the 8th house, and I've been wondering about this myself.
I believe that is the 29 degree, also known as the anaretic degree. It is considered harsh due to the pressure of having to fulfill the obligations of the sign/planet. Which can come off as “kill or be killed.” I have my moon in my solar return chart at 29 degrees in the 4th house, and it happens to also be in my natal moon sign of scorpio. I can tell you, it truly is how it is described. The decisions I am having to make regarding my home life will be irreversible, but also will help me to overcome so many of my obstacles. The pressure of this degree is meant to crystallize you into perfection, and it’s hard earned accomplishment.
I have Moon at 22 Scorpio and it fits. I'm not the aggressive type, so it's extremely annoying to have to fight my way out of a corner.
Murderer!
Natural causes! I swear
Lighten up, Francis. Firstly, I only meant read Stojanovic — he’s the guy that talks about degree theory (which you didn’t know), not that you should read more astrology in general, although that’s good advice for everyone. And secondly, we’ve decided you should definitely read more about Venus, because you’re a crispy little devil, aren’t you?