I'd love for there to be an "ism" that worked. The problem with society as a whole is that those who gain power and wealth hoard it. Communism and socialism may inhibit that, but those isms have their oligarchs and power hungry leaders too. When we rely on human integrity to do the right thing, we suffer and we have seen that over and over again. Inevitably some golden spoon baby will screw it all up and cultivate corruption. People with godly amounts of money and zero brains have a very hard time admitting, I'm stupid and no one should listen to me. In fact, in a desperate bid to remain in their cushy positions, they will bring the whole system down with lie after lie. You see it EVERYWHERE. The problem isn't the system, it's the people who make the rules that aren't qualified to do so. Cough, Trump. Cough, Putin. Cough, Xi Jinping. Babies with bazookas generally aren't OSHA approved.
Socialism has been proven time and time again to improve the material reality of the working class where its policies are implemented. China has damn near eliminated extreme poverty and is now taking hard line measures to try and eliminate poverty within their borders. The Cubans ended slavery in the region and built one of the most effective and compassionate healthcare systems in the world during a global embargo from the sole global superpower and its acolytes. I want to learn more about Laos and Vietnam.
Yeah but China only started eliminating poverty once they introduced free markets into their country. As for Cuba, the healthcare system over there is not as good as people think it is. It’s a myth. But let’s just say it was amazingly good. The lives of Cubans over there are terrible regardless. They’re living in extreme poverty and even fruit are a luxury over there. There’s a reason why millions of Cubans have risked their lives trying to get to America. The fact of the matter is, wherever free markets are strongest, the economies of those nations and therefore the people of those nations are wealthiest. If you’re interested in Laos and Vietnam, compare those economies with their free market counterparts in the region like Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. They’re some of the freest markets in the world and some of the wealthiest in the world.
> Yeah but China only started eliminating poverty once they introduced free markets into their country.
This is somewhat true. PRC was dealing with a lot during the time the Dengists took over the reigns. But before market forces were introduced, worker coops and communes did in fact provide benefit to the poor peasants of China by redistributing grain from the massive repositories of landlords to the starving masses and product from labor was distributed all around China to create a stronger coalition. This did succeed, it isn’t to say there weren’t huge mistakes made.
> As for Cuba, the healthcare system over there is not as good as people think it is. It’s a myth.
Again, there are caveats. If you need open heart surgery in Cuba, you *will* receive decent care but that’s not where the energy goes. The Cuban healthcare system is more or less devoted to preventative care. Their physicians literally go door to door making sure their citizens are up to date with extensive preventive imaging and testing. It’s better to perform 500 unnecessary mammograms than to perform 1 stage iv breast cancer mastectomy. It makes sense and it’s why, I believe, the Cubans have the highest life expectancy in the Western Hemisphere. This is *in spite of* efforts by the United States to destroy the country and murder its people with sanctions on medicine and other goods.
Chinese person here, you very conveniently ignored the years of famine and the terrible Cultural Revolution that nearly destroyed our people as a result of worker coops and communes.
No, the elimination of extreme poverty is most certainly a result of the introduction of the free market. Now, the Chinese version of the free market is incredible, with the state also participating as a market force and investor, and the socialist redistribution absolutely plays an important role. But things only started looking up when we opened our doors to the free market.
But china's prosperity isn't *because* of the "free market", it's in spite of it. If China didn't engage with international trade they'd be crushed by the capitalists, something they learned from the Soviet Union.
Do you think the famine and cultural revolution happened because the capitalists were trying to crush us?
Certainly the old feudal Chinese society were very self sufficient before the Western invasion woke us up from that bubble. But that system wasn’t socialist by any means.
Purely Communist China never really found a way to establish a healthy economy that lifted people from poverty; it just allowed a flipping of social classes - now the peasants are oppressing anyone, children included, who may be remotely connected to the landlords. It was an experiment that led to a lot of destruction and blood.
I’m very proud of what China has accomplished for the past couple of decades, but it was because of how efficient the free market is at utilizing the amazing talents of the Chinese people. Our socialist regime on top of that made sure that wealth is (somewhat) shared among everyone.
Traditionally, doctors are Cuba's second biggest export for hard currency, following soldiers.
Cuban "specialist" doctors train all over the world, and bring their knowledge home. There is a hospital in Havana that has paired with Toronto Western, that turns out some of the best eye doctors in the world.
Cuba did more in the fight of AIDS in Africa than any other nation.
Cuba's #1 problem is the American trade embargo, that has ZERO relevance to the social/political map of today
Communism works on paper... when you add people to the mix it goes all pear shaped. Try to convince the Koch brothers communism is in their best interest.
Marx said the revolution is going to be from the top down. That's not looking likely
> Cuba did more in the fight of AIDS in Africa than any other nation.
**AMAZING**
> Cuba's #1 problem is the American trade embargo, that has ZERO relevance to the social/political map of today
This should always be brought up when talking about Cuba. If socialism doesn’t work who needs an embargo?
Yep, along with all of the communist leaders in history with the exception of Castro maybe. He still killed the dissidents on his land, but had far fewer to kill. Pol Pot just killed every educated and old person period. Forgot to add him to the list in my other comment. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol\_Pot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot)
My point being is that the leaders are the problem, not the systems. Power corrupts. We need to stop consolidating power.
Pol Pot was most definitely a communist. But apparently not as good of a communist as Ho Chi Minh LOL
Give me examples of centralized state power being used for good. I'll wait.
Sounds great, but where do they do that?
Oh right, they don't do that. I'm looking for real world examples, not imaginary ones. When have elected officials or appointed officials ever done awesome things for the public?
It’s so complicated talking about stuff like Cambodian leftists. The Khmer Rouge was supported by the United states during the Cold War, I will leave it at that.
That’s not really an ideology, honestly. It’s a political coalition that has some vague preferences for things being better for poor people and minorities. It’s not something that comes with a cohesive worldview like, say, Straussian conservatism.
Oh, Castro definitely. I’m not a Christian but if I wanted to fixate on a human being Jesus reincarnate it would be Castro. He ended slavery in the region, and actually did reconstruction. Then the global superpower failed to kill him in literally hundreds of attempts.
So how do we enact a communist society without power hungry, authoritarian douche bags rising to the top and abusing the masses? Has it ever happened? Would some kind of super intelligent and benevolent AI have to be in charge?
Correction, it's being accepted by more and more people. The thing about communism is that you hate it if you've lived it, but love it if you've never lived under communist rule.
This joke is repeated in every libertarian forum.
I’m not even saying I agree with OP but the amount of people that have taken a intro level course into say Marxism tend to be the silliest as they really can’t comprehend how socialistic communism like you see countries like Norway or Finland have been shown to work very well.
What you are referring to is people taking communism and using to for bad. Which can be done with any way of running a place. But to act like people living in currency socialist or communism style country’s hate it is laughable.
Just like how living in America doesn’t mean everyone hates capitalism. To talk with such absolutes like that only comes across as naive. Or at best showing you are bias in how you view these topics based on propaganda you got somewhere.
Idk, everyone who has "lived under" (as if Communism isn't the most democratic system 🙄) communism describes it as being better than anything else in the world. Hell, half of those that defect to South Korea go back North because while conditions may be shit, at least they have food and a place to live without working fucking 80 hours a week.
I’ve read that some due but not because of communism but because they’re shell shocked by the culture differences and can’t integrate. They’re outsiders and can’t figure out how to fit in.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/04/double-defector-who-returned-to-north-korea-struggled-financially-in-south
Their numbers are lower from others I've seen, but it does show that there is a pattern (plus of course they want to downplay how many want to go back). If you have access to academic databases like JSTOR, I'd recommend looking into studies on the DPRK.
Quite the opposite. In modern Russia the older generation is more nostalgic of the times living in the Soviet Union when they owned their apartment and lived generally a prosperous life under socialism in the USSR. The younger generation is more neoliberal.
Are you that misinformed? Stupid? Knowingly spreading lies? Which is it? Because those satellite states were living with communism and denying that is rewriting history and lying.
No, I read some of the works of Karl Marx, a 19th century German economist. I also read an amalgamation of firsthand accounts of the Chinese peasants shortly before the uprising in China. I try not to consume information under that medium; I don’t like to be spoon fed information by a pundit.
And yet here you are convinced of an inane truth.
Communism was a great idea. But unfortunately it didn't take into account human nature. Communism can never work with the human species because human nature is directly contrary to its ideals.
I took some time to go through all your comments in an attempt to find some level of actual understanding of your belief but you don't seem to have one.
If I had to guess I would say depression and a feeling of hopelessness has caused you to unfairly wake communism as an ideal, while completely ignoring the parts of it that made it so incredibly negative in practice.
What you really need is more life experience. I don't know what country you live in, or what social class you live in in that country but for better or worse you need an experience outside the one you've been living or you will continue to be so gullible as to believe communism is the answer to your problems.
> And yet here you are convinced of an inane truth.
Lay it on me comrade!
> Communism was a great idea.
I agree! In my view it is the next step in our evolution as a species. Instead of business owners focusing their energies on keeping wages low and *profits* high and workers focusing their energies on having higher pay for less work, everyone in the country could work together to try and meet human need. I don’t think it’ll ever be implemented but I think we can get damn close in my lifetime.
> But unfortunately it didn't take into account human nature. Communism can never work with the human species because human nature is directly contrary to its ideals.
How so? Those who work in a factory owning the factory is natural. Very natural.
> I took some time to go through all your comments in an attempt to find some level of actual understanding of your belief but you don't seem to have one.
You can ask me whatever you’d like.
> If I had to guess I would say depression and a feeling of hopelessness has caused you to unfairly wake communism as an ideal, while completely ignoring the parts of it that made it so incredibly negative in practice.
On the contrary I’ve been very happy lately. I have been a little down when realizing that I’m not able to honestly talk politics with people in my community because of my area being so deeply red. My beliefs are my beliefs because of the reading that I’ve done as well as personal observations. Things are making more sense when viewed through a Marxist lens of analysis.
> What you really need is more life experience. I don't know what country you live in, or what social class you live in in that country but for better or worse you need an experience outside the one you've been living or you will continue to be so gullible as to believe communism is the answer to your problems.
That’s just it! I’ve started working more and more in my mutual aid organization (I’ve been getting out more in the past few months) and I’ve been seeing the disparity in my community and viewing more and more through a Marxist lens. More and more is making sense now and I think I’m a communist.
Even in a communist society there always has to be people who don't have to work to run things. No matter how you set up communism you still end up with a ruling class and a disparity between the poor and the rich.
Communism didn't fix the problems you elsee, it just gave the poor less ability to affect the government. Less power to better their own lives.
I'm not speaking about ideals, I'm not speaking in theory I'm speaking about the actual way it worked in the countries that adopted it.
It's fine to believe that communism is a great system. But it's not okay to think that it actually works in the real world. It's been tried... it doesn't. Just like capitalism. We tried it and it clearly doesn't work.
Instead of trying to reaffirm an old idea find out what the problems were and how it really ended up being and then create a new idea.
I read some of the stuff he wrote too, and dude was a certified crackpot. There’s a reason why nothing he’s ever written about has worked and the only people who say “read Marx” unironically are dropouts who try to look smart.
And since you’re so fond of reading, try reading literally any first hand accounts of people who risked their life to escape communism because it was so bad.
No, more like my family who wasn’t in league with Batista but also didn’t appreciate losing everything they had worked for when Castro took over and feared death for speaking out. At least in the US you’re free to speak out, however stupid it may be, without fear of retribution. Fidel was a horrible leader with a dark legacy that goes ignored by younger generations. You also know nothing but propaganda about Cuba. The median salary is a few hundred dollars a month and living conditions for the less specialized jobs is horrible. All the capitalist money you bring there when you go visit doesn’t go to the people it goes to the military arm of the state. If you really believe in communism why don’t you move there and speak out against the regime’s atrocities and see how that goes?
Uhhh no, the countless families who have risked their lives to flee from Cuba, the USSR, Venezuela, etc., those people. No well educated person should seriously be considering those places a utopia or any better than the US or any other non-communist country.
Also you really didn’t defend Castro by saying that cubans had decent education under him…right? While completely ignoring the thousands of people who were starving to death? Or how Cuba already had those things before he took over?
Please tell me you’re just an angsty teenager who’ll grow out of this “communism is rad” phase…
So you’re just making shit now, got it. This honestly sounds more like a mental illness. Maybe you were a Republican at one time, got tired of eating other people’s made up bullshit and instead switched to eating your own made up bullshit. Dealers choice, you tell us I guess, it could be a million different things.
Hey man. I’m not in the business of trying to have discourse with people who don’t accept that the views I express are organic and legitimate in of themselves.
I’m not mentally ill. At one time I was a Hillary Clinton supporter, then a Bernie bro, then a socialist, then a social democrat, then a socialist and now I’m pretty sure I’m a communist. I believe the things I believe because of my historical knowledge and from reading.
You're not a communist. You're a bored white kid from America. Just because you had a bad week and googled a few articles doesn't make a you a communist.
You can't go around calling yourself a racecar driver until you actually get behind the wheel, kid.
I’m not sure what makes a communist a communist then. I don’t want to register for the American communist party because I work for the state government.
I’m a man. You may take a cursory look at my profile if you wish. But I’m not in the business of engaging with people who try to undermine my speech or viewpoints with ad hominem nonsense.
Man what is with you and the negativity? This is the internet; there’s little reason to act like this. Take a breath and engage with people! Connect! Get those social buttons pressed in a productive manner.
The older I get the more I realize that every ideology is fucked because they all try and lean as absolutely insanely hard to one side as they can so they can try and steer huge ship with a tiny paddle. When any of them get in full control it's all just fucked,.
Just save yourself and don't make the mistake of living in a communist country, or even visiting for that matter. Communism in practice is not really good for your health.
OP is using Marxist terms here. Socialist countries exist in that they purport to have the workers own the means of production. Communism is a hypothetical future condition - a classless, stateless, moneyless society in which workers control the means of production and society directs its resources and decisions directly, democratically and non-coercively. OP is pointing out that this society hasn't yet been achieved because it must be built, over time, through socialism, and socialist movements have yet to identify all the best processes to get to that point.
You can visit Cuba and stay at a nice tourist destination and eat food that locals can't afford to have and spend your capitalist money there.
You won't get much of a feel for what real Cubans go through, but the beaches are absolutely breathtaking.
Everybody able to work working for their money rather than having a class of people making money by owning private property and then using the free time they have from not working to solidify their class status by engineering the government.
Not landlords. Not faceless shareholders. Not hedge fund recipients. These groups make money by owning capital and as capital accumulates the bourgeoisie gain more and more power in democratic countries as they buy the government. This is playing out before our eyes in the United States.
The difference being that in socialist countries where the people (through the government) own and control the means of production, the state makes significant investments in critical services such as social programs that build housing for the homeless and help eliminate poverty; as seen in PRC.
The idea is that eventually the government becomes less and less as human nature takes over and we evolve past class conflict. I don’t think it’ll happen in my lifetime but I do think that through socialism we can get damn close.
The people (through the government) own and control exactly jack shit. It was true during the Soviet era and it's true in China. The party elite run everything and the people get scraps according to how compliant they are to them.
You might want to start reconsidering what you are wanting. The government big enough to give you everything you need can take it away in an instant.
I mean I guess slavery is a way of giving people jobs. When I was in the TAR, China was using Tibetan slave labor to tear down culturally significant Tibetan sites to make way for shopping venues. Also they were being used to build roads and things like that. I saw extreme poverty all over China even in the east coast cities.
I get you've been there and seen it, but the government said they don't have any poverty. Why would they lie about that? What's next? Are you going to tell me the CCP is dishonest? Sounds like anti communist nonsense to me
Sorry, a government in communism? The definition of communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society. In your mind, what part of that says all the money goes to the government?
Over the last 100 years or so, the reality of communism is an actual and sort of functioning government that issues money (rubles, pesos, yuan, etc) so that the people can pay for stuff.
That's not real comunism, blah, blah, blah.
The realities of communism in practice and the theories of communism from a book are very different. There is no place in the world where a pure textbook version of communism can be realized on a national scale because there are too many people and too many moving parts.
Yes they do. You still do work if you’re a landlord. You do everything that homeowners would need to do, but you do it for renters. Shareholders do too. Just bc they’re not breaking their backs in a field doesn’t mean they’re not doing some kind of work.
And you obviously either aren’t old enough to understand or genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about if the government would be any less corrupted in a communist setting. Because then the government would still be bought out by rich people, we’d just all be equally dirt poor and eating our pets to survive the winter.
Landlords do work to varying degrees. They maintain the property and take on liability and risks which allows housing at a lower entry cost for the renter. Most landlords are people who managed to save up enough for a down payment on a second property and rent it out. They aren’t these rich people you’re thinking of. They’re families looking for supplemental income and they take on the risk of the mortgage for it.
Faceless shareholders are the same. A significant portion of investors is retail investors. This means people with an extra few thousand buying stocks because it has better returns than a savings account. These people are normal working individuals looking to make smart financial moves. Shareholders also includes retirement funds, pensions, much more than just the “scary rich person trope” here.
Hedge fund recipients work too because their seed money can also come from investors like retirement and pensions and those hedge fund workers work to grow their own accounts but also those investors.
Yes the US has a wealth gap but communism is like bludgeoning the teenager to death for talking back instead of discipline and fixing the issue.
Do you realize that if you lived in a communist regime you would be essentially working as a slave for the government? You either work as a slave for a private company with at least some degree of freedom, or you work under the government with none. In a capitalist society, the rich rule the government (lobbyists). In a communist society, the government rules the rich (go look up what happened to Jack Ma). If you think you prefer communism, go move to China/North Korea/Russia and let's see how much fun you'll be having, kid.
I get what you are saying but China/NK/Russia aren't really communist. They are more authoritarian/fascist than anything else.
I don't think true communism could ever really work either. It doesn't seem to have a structure in place to mitigate/control human greed and avarice. I humbly think that is why it has never succeeded. Nice utopian dream though. But humans are too miserable to ever make it work.
>China/NK/Russia aren't really communist.
Just because they aren't 100% communist doesn't mean they aren't communist guy. No government in this world is 100% anything. Even America, home of capitalism isn't 100% capitalist.
Honestly I’m proving the meme right. People have tried to debate me under the thread and no one has even given a single argument, just kinda threw talking points at me. It’s similar to what I see in conservative groups.
This reminds me of my friend who's falling down the Qanon rabbit hole. Nothing you can say to him will make him even consider questioning his firmly held beliefs.
Quite the opposite. I like engaging with arguments. The format of an argument is: x policy is preferable because of y under z condition.
Also I wouldn’t advise comparing qanon, a religious doctrine of the rapture based on literally nothing with leftism.
No political X-ism works in its pure form; it always leads to excesses and suffering when implemented like that. I tend to see X-isms as points on the horizon, that is to say: *directions* into which you can move a bit, but the horizon is never reachable. Trying to reach said horizon anyway is dangerous, and extremely so if one tries to do so "at any cost".
Now, what does work are X-*democratic* policies. By that, I do not mean the almost-so named party in the US, but the idea that one compromises within a proper system of democracy.
Remember: there are other situations in the political world than the one in the US. In particular Europe has a good number of nations having a thriving multi-party system, in which "compromise" is not a dirty word (nor should it be, imo).
It’s never been established. Socialism, however, has been attempted and has seen a resounding success in their efforts to improve the material reality of their working class.
"Communism" has worked REALLY REALLY well at feeding the purses of the military- industrial complex, on both sides
Screwed over the working classes all round, but made a pile for a small group.
The average american doesn't know what communism IS, but DAMN IT it's BAD and we're gonna spend billions and billions and billions to fight it.
There are policies that can lessen human suffering at little to no societal cost or externalities. I use this definition to refer to a ‘correct’ policy.
That's not how politics work though. You feel that lessening human suffering is correct. But five people think human suffering is terrific, and policies that pursue human suffering are correct, so humans suffer.
That is politics.
Why does communism sound so appealing?
Why consolidate power to a small select few and entrust them to do good for society? Have you not read about Stalin, Mao, and Lenin and the atrocities committed for their ideology? They stole all the food from the farmers making the food and let them starve along with millions of others. We need to decentralize, not centralize. Power to the people, not the few.
> Why does communism sound so appealing?
Not having a class of people able to make money by simply *owning* private property and where human needs are met first and for most sounds very appealing.
> Why consolidate power to a small select few and entrust them to do good for society?
I want power to be wielded by the workers.
> Have you not read about Stalin, Mao, and Lenin and the atrocities committed for their ideology? They stole all the food from the farmers making the food and let them starve along with millions of others. We need to decentralize, not centralize. Power to the people, not the few.
There are several falsehoods listed here. If I spend some of my time delving and writing a response do you promise to read it and consider? I can tell you mean well so I don’t think it would be a waste.
Historically, central planning didn't empower workers. The means of production were seized from the workers by the central planners. Great promises are made and great trust is put into the centralized planner(s), and in actuality their greed and nepotism sets in and a two tiered society arises. If Stalin and Mao were real communists, they would have got their hands dirty and produced something and they wouldn't have given more to themselves and their friends and family than they did the rest of the nation.
I'm much more a fan of anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism than communism and capitalism. It is our 'leaders' that have failed us. Instilling more power in those that have proven that they can't be trusted by consolidating/centralizing power to them seems insane to me. IMO, we need to get past having leaders and decentralize the power.
I will 100% read your response! Thank you for having a conversation =)
My sources:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/) \- claims Mao let 30Million Chinese starve
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess\_mortality\_in\_the\_Soviet\_Union\_under\_Joseph\_Stalin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin) \- 9mil in excess mortality under Stalin
**[Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin)**
>Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to the Soviet revolutionary and dictator Joseph Stalin vary widely. The scholarly consensus affirms that archival materials declassified in 1991 contain irrefutable data far superior to sources used prior to 1991 such as statements from emigres and other informants. A minority of authors and journalists maintain that "statistics can never fully describe what happened". Prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the archival revelations, some historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin's regime were 20 million or higher.
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Happy to see you here comrade! It’s just how I’ve been feeling lately. I used to think there was some happy medium like social democracy or democratic socialism but the more and more I read about socialist countries and the benefit their actions have on their working class. It makes me sad because I can’t really express these views in my community; I live in a deep red area.
This isn’t false. But I do believe around 60-75% of the global population is communist but not properly reached. We can observe trends in countries that enact these policies and draw conclusions. Take a look in Cuba, for instance. They’ve managed to hold onto their government for… 60 years now? Despite many *many* foreign interventions the populous spirit has held on. In China, the CCP works to curb poverty and nearly eliminate extreme poverty. You think those rural communities that are just now receiving medicine and relief in the year 2022 will ever revolt against the government? If an American politician started mass producing $10 insulin they would make him president and put his face on Mount Rushmore because people respond to positive changes in their material reality.
I hope so. Certainly preferable to what we have now in the United States. And it’s all the bourgeoisie would have to do to keep their class power indefinitely.
There are plenty that are close enough for you to fuck off to. Pick one. Several are even at war right now, feelin convicted enough to fight for those ideals? Or is " let's change that" all talk?
As does the communist support and willingness to back your position with any semblance of integrity. Forgive me if I don't pay polite with people who promote communism. Or should I just ask your forgiveness for *actually* believing in and defending my ideals e.e
ITT; idiot lolbertarians, shitlibs, and con-servatives convince themselves they are experts on communism despite never once communicating with a single person who has lived in any existing or historically communist countries, nor have they picked up a single fucking book in their lives. Can't wait for the anarkiddies to join in and claim that reading books is "gatekeeping".
Well, everything 100% under state control is just a bad idea, let the free market take care of free market things. However vital industries and services should, in my mind be owned by the state and by extension the people.
Extremism is a natural response. Our brain tries to protect us from pain. But in reality that solution maybe only be useful in the very short term.
Communism doesn’t work because equal opportunity does not equate to equal outcome. Now, our current capitalist system has shifted from Democracy to Oligarchy, and that’s not good either. Both are extremes. If everything is free, nobody wants to work. If everything is too expensive, working is pointless. Balance is the answer. Things should not be free, but also not too expensive. Things like rent, food, and medical costs should be *affordable.* Not free and not overly expensive. Luxury is for the rich, and living reasonably is for the lower class. Which is fine. I don’t need luxury myself. Most people don’t. But when the luxury the rich has costs people their lives and homes, that’s what crosses the line. We need to fight for a system where things are affordable to everyone. It’s fine to be able to not afford everything, just so long as you can afford what you need without standing on the edge of an unstable blade to do it.
I see where you come from, and that feeling is totally understandable, but it is maybe not the most correct solution.
> Extremism is a natural response. Our brain tries to protect us from pain. But in reality that solution maybe only be useful in the very short term.
Extremism is only proportional to the current Overton window. I don’t care about the label ‘extremist’. The idea of a fair trial as we know it used to only exist in the ramblings of crackpot ‘extremist’ university professors.
> Communism doesn’t work because equal opportunity does not equate to equal outcome.
Communism hasn’t been established in any modern nation on earth (that I know of). However there are many *socialist* countries that have succeeded in massively improving the material reality of its working class which is most of what I care about.
> Now, our current capitalist system has shifted from Democracy to Oligarchy, and that’s not good either.
It’s called ‘capitalism’. Capitalism is an economic system where it is legal to make money simply by owning private property. This creates a class called the ‘bourgeoisie’. The bourgeoisie, over time, accumulates more and more capital when they buy cheap assets during a recession (as we saw with the COVID stimulus bills$), and then uses this capital that they accumulate to **buy the government**. This has happened, is happening, or will happen in every capitalist country on earth.
> Both are extremes. If everything is free, nobody wants to work.
Which economic system are you referring to?
> I see where you come from, and that feeling is totally understandable, but it is maybe not the most correct solution.
I really don’t think you’re familiar with communism. And that’s alright. It’s not taught anywhere because if it was we would have… many more communists. I’m of the belief that 60-70% of the global population are communists but simply haven’t been reached yet.
If we use the examples given to us communism does not work.
To think it does is to be one of two things:
An egotist who thinks they’re smarter than the people who tried beforehand
Or
A megalomaniac who thinks what has happened is fine and communism therefore works
Not really.
I’ll quote Winston Churchill instead.
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries”
There's one thing that's been irking me lately: why does solving climate change cost money? Money doesn't exist. It's entirely imaginary. It doesn't physically cost money to mine ore out of the ground, doesn't physically cost money to power a building, doesn't physically cost money to launch a rocket, etc. So, if someone has a solid plan that could effectively reverse climate change, why is funding an impedance? Here's a bunch of free shit, please get to work saving the goddamn planet thank you!
You know communism is basically a goal that can’t exist on this world cause it needs non existent tech or something like interplanetary mining to push us into post scarcity and even the books of communism don’t paint a clear path to it cause it must come from a good very socialist system. What is communism to you? Cause often they just describe socialism and at worse sound like mad rambling like saying money doesn’t exist when it’s existence under communism is to limit consumption.
I'd love for there to be an "ism" that worked. The problem with society as a whole is that those who gain power and wealth hoard it. Communism and socialism may inhibit that, but those isms have their oligarchs and power hungry leaders too. When we rely on human integrity to do the right thing, we suffer and we have seen that over and over again. Inevitably some golden spoon baby will screw it all up and cultivate corruption. People with godly amounts of money and zero brains have a very hard time admitting, I'm stupid and no one should listen to me. In fact, in a desperate bid to remain in their cushy positions, they will bring the whole system down with lie after lie. You see it EVERYWHERE. The problem isn't the system, it's the people who make the rules that aren't qualified to do so. Cough, Trump. Cough, Putin. Cough, Xi Jinping. Babies with bazookas generally aren't OSHA approved.
We program a machine to enforce the utopia!
Great job describing capitalism.
Socialism has been proven time and time again to improve the material reality of the working class where its policies are implemented. China has damn near eliminated extreme poverty and is now taking hard line measures to try and eliminate poverty within their borders. The Cubans ended slavery in the region and built one of the most effective and compassionate healthcare systems in the world during a global embargo from the sole global superpower and its acolytes. I want to learn more about Laos and Vietnam.
Yeah but China only started eliminating poverty once they introduced free markets into their country. As for Cuba, the healthcare system over there is not as good as people think it is. It’s a myth. But let’s just say it was amazingly good. The lives of Cubans over there are terrible regardless. They’re living in extreme poverty and even fruit are a luxury over there. There’s a reason why millions of Cubans have risked their lives trying to get to America. The fact of the matter is, wherever free markets are strongest, the economies of those nations and therefore the people of those nations are wealthiest. If you’re interested in Laos and Vietnam, compare those economies with their free market counterparts in the region like Taiwan, Singapore, and Hong Kong. They’re some of the freest markets in the world and some of the wealthiest in the world.
> Yeah but China only started eliminating poverty once they introduced free markets into their country. This is somewhat true. PRC was dealing with a lot during the time the Dengists took over the reigns. But before market forces were introduced, worker coops and communes did in fact provide benefit to the poor peasants of China by redistributing grain from the massive repositories of landlords to the starving masses and product from labor was distributed all around China to create a stronger coalition. This did succeed, it isn’t to say there weren’t huge mistakes made. > As for Cuba, the healthcare system over there is not as good as people think it is. It’s a myth. Again, there are caveats. If you need open heart surgery in Cuba, you *will* receive decent care but that’s not where the energy goes. The Cuban healthcare system is more or less devoted to preventative care. Their physicians literally go door to door making sure their citizens are up to date with extensive preventive imaging and testing. It’s better to perform 500 unnecessary mammograms than to perform 1 stage iv breast cancer mastectomy. It makes sense and it’s why, I believe, the Cubans have the highest life expectancy in the Western Hemisphere. This is *in spite of* efforts by the United States to destroy the country and murder its people with sanctions on medicine and other goods.
Chinese person here, you very conveniently ignored the years of famine and the terrible Cultural Revolution that nearly destroyed our people as a result of worker coops and communes. No, the elimination of extreme poverty is most certainly a result of the introduction of the free market. Now, the Chinese version of the free market is incredible, with the state also participating as a market force and investor, and the socialist redistribution absolutely plays an important role. But things only started looking up when we opened our doors to the free market.
But china's prosperity isn't *because* of the "free market", it's in spite of it. If China didn't engage with international trade they'd be crushed by the capitalists, something they learned from the Soviet Union.
Do you think the famine and cultural revolution happened because the capitalists were trying to crush us? Certainly the old feudal Chinese society were very self sufficient before the Western invasion woke us up from that bubble. But that system wasn’t socialist by any means. Purely Communist China never really found a way to establish a healthy economy that lifted people from poverty; it just allowed a flipping of social classes - now the peasants are oppressing anyone, children included, who may be remotely connected to the landlords. It was an experiment that led to a lot of destruction and blood. I’m very proud of what China has accomplished for the past couple of decades, but it was because of how efficient the free market is at utilizing the amazing talents of the Chinese people. Our socialist regime on top of that made sure that wealth is (somewhat) shared among everyone.
Traditionally, doctors are Cuba's second biggest export for hard currency, following soldiers. Cuban "specialist" doctors train all over the world, and bring their knowledge home. There is a hospital in Havana that has paired with Toronto Western, that turns out some of the best eye doctors in the world. Cuba did more in the fight of AIDS in Africa than any other nation. Cuba's #1 problem is the American trade embargo, that has ZERO relevance to the social/political map of today Communism works on paper... when you add people to the mix it goes all pear shaped. Try to convince the Koch brothers communism is in their best interest. Marx said the revolution is going to be from the top down. That's not looking likely
> Cuba did more in the fight of AIDS in Africa than any other nation. **AMAZING** > Cuba's #1 problem is the American trade embargo, that has ZERO relevance to the social/political map of today This should always be brought up when talking about Cuba. If socialism doesn’t work who needs an embargo?
Came here for the Tankie rhetoric, was not disappointed.
Yessur
Is this your first ideology?
No? I used to be a liberal.
Like a real liberal or a modern neo-liberal? Those are two very different things.
I used to favor Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Now I understand they are imperialist murderers.
Yep, along with all of the communist leaders in history with the exception of Castro maybe. He still killed the dissidents on his land, but had far fewer to kill. Pol Pot just killed every educated and old person period. Forgot to add him to the list in my other comment. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol\_Pot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot) My point being is that the leaders are the problem, not the systems. Power corrupts. We need to stop consolidating power.
One, pol pot wasn't a communist and was funded by the CIA Two, power doesn't corrupt, that's a myth. Power just shows the true self.
Pol Pot was most definitely a communist. But apparently not as good of a communist as Ho Chi Minh LOL Give me examples of centralized state power being used for good. I'll wait.
Guaranteed fucking housing
Sounds great, but where do they do that? Oh right, they don't do that. I'm looking for real world examples, not imaginary ones. When have elected officials or appointed officials ever done awesome things for the public?
Cuba literally has guaranteed housing, as did the Soviet Union. And China has heavily subsidized housing. Fuck off
Pol Pot wasn’t a leftist.
Please explain your claim, as I believe it to be false.
It’s so complicated talking about stuff like Cambodian leftists. The Khmer Rouge was supported by the United states during the Cold War, I will leave it at that.
That’s not really an ideology, honestly. It’s a political coalition that has some vague preferences for things being better for poor people and minorities. It’s not something that comes with a cohesive worldview like, say, Straussian conservatism.
“That’s why I support communists with top leaders like Stalin, Castro, and Zedong!”
Oh, Castro definitely. I’m not a Christian but if I wanted to fixate on a human being Jesus reincarnate it would be Castro. He ended slavery in the region, and actually did reconstruction. Then the global superpower failed to kill him in literally hundreds of attempts.
So how do we enact a communist society without power hungry, authoritarian douche bags rising to the top and abusing the masses? Has it ever happened? Would some kind of super intelligent and benevolent AI have to be in charge?
Correction, it's being accepted by more and more people. The thing about communism is that you hate it if you've lived it, but love it if you've never lived under communist rule.
This joke is repeated in every libertarian forum. I’m not even saying I agree with OP but the amount of people that have taken a intro level course into say Marxism tend to be the silliest as they really can’t comprehend how socialistic communism like you see countries like Norway or Finland have been shown to work very well. What you are referring to is people taking communism and using to for bad. Which can be done with any way of running a place. But to act like people living in currency socialist or communism style country’s hate it is laughable. Just like how living in America doesn’t mean everyone hates capitalism. To talk with such absolutes like that only comes across as naive. Or at best showing you are bias in how you view these topics based on propaganda you got somewhere.
So, like capitalism but with healthcare?
Not at all.
Like capitalism. No health care
Idk, everyone who has "lived under" (as if Communism isn't the most democratic system 🙄) communism describes it as being better than anything else in the world. Hell, half of those that defect to South Korea go back North because while conditions may be shit, at least they have food and a place to live without working fucking 80 hours a week.
You got any kind of source on North Koreans returning to the north because I've never seen that and find it hard to believe.
I’ve read that some due but not because of communism but because they’re shell shocked by the culture differences and can’t integrate. They’re outsiders and can’t figure out how to fit in.
I've heard of that but I've never seen the half number anywhere. I looked it up and cnn said like 30 have in the last like 20 years or something
Oh I don’t think it’s half and I think the person you replied to is wrong and not using cited sources.
That's what I figured but I didn't know if they might have had some source I didn't see
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/04/double-defector-who-returned-to-north-korea-struggled-financially-in-south Their numbers are lower from others I've seen, but it does show that there is a pattern (plus of course they want to downplay how many want to go back). If you have access to academic databases like JSTOR, I'd recommend looking into studies on the DPRK.
So basically you can't find any publicly accessible source for your claim?
Quite the opposite. In modern Russia the older generation is more nostalgic of the times living in the Soviet Union when they owned their apartment and lived generally a prosperous life under socialism in the USSR. The younger generation is more neoliberal.
Now ask anyone living outside of Russia how they feel about going back to living under communism.
Where? The satellite states? They weren’t living under socialist rule.
Are you that misinformed? Stupid? Knowingly spreading lies? Which is it? Because those satellite states were living with communism and denying that is rewriting history and lying.
Op definitely watched one youtube video and deepthroated the hammer.
No, I read some of the works of Karl Marx, a 19th century German economist. I also read an amalgamation of firsthand accounts of the Chinese peasants shortly before the uprising in China. I try not to consume information under that medium; I don’t like to be spoon fed information by a pundit.
And yet here you are convinced of an inane truth. Communism was a great idea. But unfortunately it didn't take into account human nature. Communism can never work with the human species because human nature is directly contrary to its ideals. I took some time to go through all your comments in an attempt to find some level of actual understanding of your belief but you don't seem to have one. If I had to guess I would say depression and a feeling of hopelessness has caused you to unfairly wake communism as an ideal, while completely ignoring the parts of it that made it so incredibly negative in practice. What you really need is more life experience. I don't know what country you live in, or what social class you live in in that country but for better or worse you need an experience outside the one you've been living or you will continue to be so gullible as to believe communism is the answer to your problems.
> And yet here you are convinced of an inane truth. Lay it on me comrade! > Communism was a great idea. I agree! In my view it is the next step in our evolution as a species. Instead of business owners focusing their energies on keeping wages low and *profits* high and workers focusing their energies on having higher pay for less work, everyone in the country could work together to try and meet human need. I don’t think it’ll ever be implemented but I think we can get damn close in my lifetime. > But unfortunately it didn't take into account human nature. Communism can never work with the human species because human nature is directly contrary to its ideals. How so? Those who work in a factory owning the factory is natural. Very natural. > I took some time to go through all your comments in an attempt to find some level of actual understanding of your belief but you don't seem to have one. You can ask me whatever you’d like. > If I had to guess I would say depression and a feeling of hopelessness has caused you to unfairly wake communism as an ideal, while completely ignoring the parts of it that made it so incredibly negative in practice. On the contrary I’ve been very happy lately. I have been a little down when realizing that I’m not able to honestly talk politics with people in my community because of my area being so deeply red. My beliefs are my beliefs because of the reading that I’ve done as well as personal observations. Things are making more sense when viewed through a Marxist lens of analysis. > What you really need is more life experience. I don't know what country you live in, or what social class you live in in that country but for better or worse you need an experience outside the one you've been living or you will continue to be so gullible as to believe communism is the answer to your problems. That’s just it! I’ve started working more and more in my mutual aid organization (I’ve been getting out more in the past few months) and I’ve been seeing the disparity in my community and viewing more and more through a Marxist lens. More and more is making sense now and I think I’m a communist.
Even in a communist society there always has to be people who don't have to work to run things. No matter how you set up communism you still end up with a ruling class and a disparity between the poor and the rich. Communism didn't fix the problems you elsee, it just gave the poor less ability to affect the government. Less power to better their own lives. I'm not speaking about ideals, I'm not speaking in theory I'm speaking about the actual way it worked in the countries that adopted it. It's fine to believe that communism is a great system. But it's not okay to think that it actually works in the real world. It's been tried... it doesn't. Just like capitalism. We tried it and it clearly doesn't work. Instead of trying to reaffirm an old idea find out what the problems were and how it really ended up being and then create a new idea.
Separately if you really want to understand the concept of what I'm saying you should read "my Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn
I read some of the stuff he wrote too, and dude was a certified crackpot. There’s a reason why nothing he’s ever written about has worked and the only people who say “read Marx” unironically are dropouts who try to look smart. And since you’re so fond of reading, try reading literally any first hand accounts of people who risked their life to escape communism because it was so bad.
Like who? The Cubans in league with Batista?
No, more like my family who wasn’t in league with Batista but also didn’t appreciate losing everything they had worked for when Castro took over and feared death for speaking out. At least in the US you’re free to speak out, however stupid it may be, without fear of retribution. Fidel was a horrible leader with a dark legacy that goes ignored by younger generations. You also know nothing but propaganda about Cuba. The median salary is a few hundred dollars a month and living conditions for the less specialized jobs is horrible. All the capitalist money you bring there when you go visit doesn’t go to the people it goes to the military arm of the state. If you really believe in communism why don’t you move there and speak out against the regime’s atrocities and see how that goes?
Uhhh no, the countless families who have risked their lives to flee from Cuba, the USSR, Venezuela, etc., those people. No well educated person should seriously be considering those places a utopia or any better than the US or any other non-communist country. Also you really didn’t defend Castro by saying that cubans had decent education under him…right? While completely ignoring the thousands of people who were starving to death? Or how Cuba already had those things before he took over? Please tell me you’re just an angsty teenager who’ll grow out of this “communism is rad” phase…
So you’re just making shit now, got it. This honestly sounds more like a mental illness. Maybe you were a Republican at one time, got tired of eating other people’s made up bullshit and instead switched to eating your own made up bullshit. Dealers choice, you tell us I guess, it could be a million different things.
Hey man. I’m not in the business of trying to have discourse with people who don’t accept that the views I express are organic and legitimate in of themselves. I’m not mentally ill. At one time I was a Hillary Clinton supporter, then a Bernie bro, then a socialist, then a social democrat, then a socialist and now I’m pretty sure I’m a communist. I believe the things I believe because of my historical knowledge and from reading.
Mental illness it is
You're not a communist. You're a bored white kid from America. Just because you had a bad week and googled a few articles doesn't make a you a communist. You can't go around calling yourself a racecar driver until you actually get behind the wheel, kid.
I read Marx. And I’m a member of a mutual aid organization.
I read Dr Seuss. Doesn't make me a who.
I’m not sure what makes a communist a communist then. I don’t want to register for the American communist party because I work for the state government.
No you don't. You're 14 years old. Adults aren't this naive.
I’m a man. You may take a cursory look at my profile if you wish. But I’m not in the business of engaging with people who try to undermine my speech or viewpoints with ad hominem nonsense.
Anyone that has to say "I'm a man" is anything but
just makes you a douche
Too complicated of a read for you? Maybe you should stick to picture books.
Man what is with you and the negativity? This is the internet; there’s little reason to act like this. Take a breath and engage with people! Connect! Get those social buttons pressed in a productive manner.
Lol. Are you serious Man you're soft. Can even take a very light hearted joke.
I am soft! I’m soft with people and ‘hard’ with problems.
Lmao. You wuss. (I'm sorry I don't mean to be mean but you can't just say fruity things like that and expect people to not take shots at you)
Have a great rest of your day. If you’re up in the northeast I hope you & your family stay warm.
The older I get the more I realize that every ideology is fucked because they all try and lean as absolutely insanely hard to one side as they can so they can try and steer huge ship with a tiny paddle. When any of them get in full control it's all just fucked,.
Just save yourself and don't make the mistake of living in a communist country, or even visiting for that matter. Communism in practice is not really good for your health.
It does help with weight loss though
There are no existing communist countries. I would love to visit Cuba, a socialist country, someday.
OP is using Marxist terms here. Socialist countries exist in that they purport to have the workers own the means of production. Communism is a hypothetical future condition - a classless, stateless, moneyless society in which workers control the means of production and society directs its resources and decisions directly, democratically and non-coercively. OP is pointing out that this society hasn't yet been achieved because it must be built, over time, through socialism, and socialist movements have yet to identify all the best processes to get to that point.
Yep
> There are no existing communist countries What a massive W for the world > I would love to visit Cuba Hope your coyote is reliable
Uh, last I checked China still exists.
BuT tHat’S nOt rEAl CoMmuNIsM
It’s a capitalist oligarchy in socialist clothing
You can visit Cuba and stay at a nice tourist destination and eat food that locals can't afford to have and spend your capitalist money there. You won't get much of a feel for what real Cubans go through, but the beaches are absolutely breathtaking.
Yeah Cuba is astoundingly impoverished. Sounds like Op watched the performance that Cuba did for Michael Moore's movie.
Look I’m really drunk rn so these comments are just making me giggle. What’s capitalist money?
What is it that appeals to you about "Communism"?
Everybody able to work working for their money rather than having a class of people making money by owning private property and then using the free time they have from not working to solidify their class status by engineering the government.
Literally everyone in the job force right now is working for their money lmao
Not landlords. Not faceless shareholders. Not hedge fund recipients. These groups make money by owning capital and as capital accumulates the bourgeoisie gain more and more power in democratic countries as they buy the government. This is playing out before our eyes in the United States.
Those group are just replaced by the government.
The difference being that in socialist countries where the people (through the government) own and control the means of production, the state makes significant investments in critical services such as social programs that build housing for the homeless and help eliminate poverty; as seen in PRC. The idea is that eventually the government becomes less and less as human nature takes over and we evolve past class conflict. I don’t think it’ll happen in my lifetime but I do think that through socialism we can get damn close.
The people (through the government) own and control exactly jack shit. It was true during the Soviet era and it's true in China. The party elite run everything and the people get scraps according to how compliant they are to them. You might want to start reconsidering what you are wanting. The government big enough to give you everything you need can take it away in an instant.
>help eliminate poverty; as seen in PRC Lol, you should probably visit China. It's definitely not like that.
China eliminated poverty. Didn't you know that?
I mean I guess slavery is a way of giving people jobs. When I was in the TAR, China was using Tibetan slave labor to tear down culturally significant Tibetan sites to make way for shopping venues. Also they were being used to build roads and things like that. I saw extreme poverty all over China even in the east coast cities.
I get you've been there and seen it, but the government said they don't have any poverty. Why would they lie about that? What's next? Are you going to tell me the CCP is dishonest? Sounds like anti communist nonsense to me
Sorry, a government in communism? The definition of communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society. In your mind, what part of that says all the money goes to the government?
Over the last 100 years or so, the reality of communism is an actual and sort of functioning government that issues money (rubles, pesos, yuan, etc) so that the people can pay for stuff.
But you understand that that is antithetical to the definition of communism, which means it cannot be communism, correct?
That's not real comunism, blah, blah, blah. The realities of communism in practice and the theories of communism from a book are very different. There is no place in the world where a pure textbook version of communism can be realized on a national scale because there are too many people and too many moving parts.
Yes they do. You still do work if you’re a landlord. You do everything that homeowners would need to do, but you do it for renters. Shareholders do too. Just bc they’re not breaking their backs in a field doesn’t mean they’re not doing some kind of work. And you obviously either aren’t old enough to understand or genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about if the government would be any less corrupted in a communist setting. Because then the government would still be bought out by rich people, we’d just all be equally dirt poor and eating our pets to survive the winter.
Landlords do work to varying degrees. They maintain the property and take on liability and risks which allows housing at a lower entry cost for the renter. Most landlords are people who managed to save up enough for a down payment on a second property and rent it out. They aren’t these rich people you’re thinking of. They’re families looking for supplemental income and they take on the risk of the mortgage for it. Faceless shareholders are the same. A significant portion of investors is retail investors. This means people with an extra few thousand buying stocks because it has better returns than a savings account. These people are normal working individuals looking to make smart financial moves. Shareholders also includes retirement funds, pensions, much more than just the “scary rich person trope” here. Hedge fund recipients work too because their seed money can also come from investors like retirement and pensions and those hedge fund workers work to grow their own accounts but also those investors. Yes the US has a wealth gap but communism is like bludgeoning the teenager to death for talking back instead of discipline and fixing the issue.
Do you realize that if you lived in a communist regime you would be essentially working as a slave for the government? You either work as a slave for a private company with at least some degree of freedom, or you work under the government with none. In a capitalist society, the rich rule the government (lobbyists). In a communist society, the government rules the rich (go look up what happened to Jack Ma). If you think you prefer communism, go move to China/North Korea/Russia and let's see how much fun you'll be having, kid.
I get what you are saying but China/NK/Russia aren't really communist. They are more authoritarian/fascist than anything else. I don't think true communism could ever really work either. It doesn't seem to have a structure in place to mitigate/control human greed and avarice. I humbly think that is why it has never succeeded. Nice utopian dream though. But humans are too miserable to ever make it work.
>China/NK/Russia aren't really communist. Just because they aren't 100% communist doesn't mean they aren't communist guy. No government in this world is 100% anything. Even America, home of capitalism isn't 100% capitalist.
Youre embarrassing yourself here.
Honestly I’m proving the meme right. People have tried to debate me under the thread and no one has even given a single argument, just kinda threw talking points at me. It’s similar to what I see in conservative groups.
This reminds me of my friend who's falling down the Qanon rabbit hole. Nothing you can say to him will make him even consider questioning his firmly held beliefs.
Quite the opposite. I like engaging with arguments. The format of an argument is: x policy is preferable because of y under z condition. Also I wouldn’t advise comparing qanon, a religious doctrine of the rapture based on literally nothing with leftism.
No political X-ism works in its pure form; it always leads to excesses and suffering when implemented like that. I tend to see X-isms as points on the horizon, that is to say: *directions* into which you can move a bit, but the horizon is never reachable. Trying to reach said horizon anyway is dangerous, and extremely so if one tries to do so "at any cost". Now, what does work are X-*democratic* policies. By that, I do not mean the almost-so named party in the US, but the idea that one compromises within a proper system of democracy. Remember: there are other situations in the political world than the one in the US. In particular Europe has a good number of nations having a thriving multi-party system, in which "compromise" is not a dirty word (nor should it be, imo).
Communism has never worked in the history of forever.
It’s never been established. Socialism, however, has been attempted and has seen a resounding success in their efforts to improve the material reality of their working class.
"Communism" has worked REALLY REALLY well at feeding the purses of the military- industrial complex, on both sides Screwed over the working classes all round, but made a pile for a small group. The average american doesn't know what communism IS, but DAMN IT it's BAD and we're gonna spend billions and billions and billions to fight it.
Aight, get back to me in 10 years when China is the foremost global super power and the US is nothing but slums
You have nothing to lose but your chains.
There is no "correct" in politics.
There are policies that can lessen human suffering at little to no societal cost or externalities. I use this definition to refer to a ‘correct’ policy.
That's not how politics work though. You feel that lessening human suffering is correct. But five people think human suffering is terrific, and policies that pursue human suffering are correct, so humans suffer. That is politics.
I think they tried that in Russia and it didn't work out.
Because fat cats got bought out by the CIA because Stalin didn't whack enough traitors, and Corn boy was too fuckin soft
Stalin whacked everyone who he thought was a traitor
Why does communism sound so appealing? Why consolidate power to a small select few and entrust them to do good for society? Have you not read about Stalin, Mao, and Lenin and the atrocities committed for their ideology? They stole all the food from the farmers making the food and let them starve along with millions of others. We need to decentralize, not centralize. Power to the people, not the few.
> Why does communism sound so appealing? Not having a class of people able to make money by simply *owning* private property and where human needs are met first and for most sounds very appealing. > Why consolidate power to a small select few and entrust them to do good for society? I want power to be wielded by the workers. > Have you not read about Stalin, Mao, and Lenin and the atrocities committed for their ideology? They stole all the food from the farmers making the food and let them starve along with millions of others. We need to decentralize, not centralize. Power to the people, not the few. There are several falsehoods listed here. If I spend some of my time delving and writing a response do you promise to read it and consider? I can tell you mean well so I don’t think it would be a waste.
Historically, central planning didn't empower workers. The means of production were seized from the workers by the central planners. Great promises are made and great trust is put into the centralized planner(s), and in actuality their greed and nepotism sets in and a two tiered society arises. If Stalin and Mao were real communists, they would have got their hands dirty and produced something and they wouldn't have given more to themselves and their friends and family than they did the rest of the nation. I'm much more a fan of anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism than communism and capitalism. It is our 'leaders' that have failed us. Instilling more power in those that have proven that they can't be trusted by consolidating/centralizing power to them seems insane to me. IMO, we need to get past having leaders and decentralize the power. I will 100% read your response! Thank you for having a conversation =) My sources: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/) \- claims Mao let 30Million Chinese starve [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess\_mortality\_in\_the\_Soviet\_Union\_under\_Joseph\_Stalin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin) \- 9mil in excess mortality under Stalin
**[Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin)** >Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to the Soviet revolutionary and dictator Joseph Stalin vary widely. The scholarly consensus affirms that archival materials declassified in 1991 contain irrefutable data far superior to sources used prior to 1991 such as statements from emigres and other informants. A minority of authors and journalists maintain that "statistics can never fully describe what happened". Prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the archival revelations, some historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin's regime were 20 million or higher. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
I am a socialist, but this meme has big "I'm 14 and this is deep" energy.
Happy to see you here comrade! It’s just how I’ve been feeling lately. I used to think there was some happy medium like social democracy or democratic socialism but the more and more I read about socialist countries and the benefit their actions have on their working class. It makes me sad because I can’t really express these views in my community; I live in a deep red area.
communism only works if you "convert" everyone to to think for the group instead of the individual. Never going to work.
This isn’t false. But I do believe around 60-75% of the global population is communist but not properly reached. We can observe trends in countries that enact these policies and draw conclusions. Take a look in Cuba, for instance. They’ve managed to hold onto their government for… 60 years now? Despite many *many* foreign interventions the populous spirit has held on. In China, the CCP works to curb poverty and nearly eliminate extreme poverty. You think those rural communities that are just now receiving medicine and relief in the year 2022 will ever revolt against the government? If an American politician started mass producing $10 insulin they would make him president and put his face on Mount Rushmore because people respond to positive changes in their material reality.
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I hope so. Certainly preferable to what we have now in the United States. And it’s all the bourgeoisie would have to do to keep their class power indefinitely.
Communism works until you have someone in power. Communism can't work with anarchy. Communism doesn't work.
Hahahaha what the fuck lol is that a haiku
Cool, if you don't live in one already I highly advise you move to a communist country, especially if you are currently residing in mine.
There aren’t any :( let’s change that 😈
There are plenty that are close enough for you to fuck off to. Pick one. Several are even at war right now, feelin convicted enough to fight for those ideals? Or is " let's change that" all talk?
And the superficial politeness vanishes. God I love the internet.
As does the communist support and willingness to back your position with any semblance of integrity. Forgive me if I don't pay polite with people who promote communism. Or should I just ask your forgiveness for *actually* believing in and defending my ideals e.e
ITT; idiot lolbertarians, shitlibs, and con-servatives convince themselves they are experts on communism despite never once communicating with a single person who has lived in any existing or historically communist countries, nor have they picked up a single fucking book in their lives. Can't wait for the anarkiddies to join in and claim that reading books is "gatekeeping".
You are not alone. Though I’d replace communism with socialism
Why?
Well, everything 100% under state control is just a bad idea, let the free market take care of free market things. However vital industries and services should, in my mind be owned by the state and by extension the people.
Communism isn’t when 100% of industry is under state control.
That’s literally the difference between the two.
No… lol. Ugh. Aghhhhhhhhhhh
Extremism is a natural response. Our brain tries to protect us from pain. But in reality that solution maybe only be useful in the very short term. Communism doesn’t work because equal opportunity does not equate to equal outcome. Now, our current capitalist system has shifted from Democracy to Oligarchy, and that’s not good either. Both are extremes. If everything is free, nobody wants to work. If everything is too expensive, working is pointless. Balance is the answer. Things should not be free, but also not too expensive. Things like rent, food, and medical costs should be *affordable.* Not free and not overly expensive. Luxury is for the rich, and living reasonably is for the lower class. Which is fine. I don’t need luxury myself. Most people don’t. But when the luxury the rich has costs people their lives and homes, that’s what crosses the line. We need to fight for a system where things are affordable to everyone. It’s fine to be able to not afford everything, just so long as you can afford what you need without standing on the edge of an unstable blade to do it. I see where you come from, and that feeling is totally understandable, but it is maybe not the most correct solution.
> Extremism is a natural response. Our brain tries to protect us from pain. But in reality that solution maybe only be useful in the very short term. Extremism is only proportional to the current Overton window. I don’t care about the label ‘extremist’. The idea of a fair trial as we know it used to only exist in the ramblings of crackpot ‘extremist’ university professors. > Communism doesn’t work because equal opportunity does not equate to equal outcome. Communism hasn’t been established in any modern nation on earth (that I know of). However there are many *socialist* countries that have succeeded in massively improving the material reality of its working class which is most of what I care about. > Now, our current capitalist system has shifted from Democracy to Oligarchy, and that’s not good either. It’s called ‘capitalism’. Capitalism is an economic system where it is legal to make money simply by owning private property. This creates a class called the ‘bourgeoisie’. The bourgeoisie, over time, accumulates more and more capital when they buy cheap assets during a recession (as we saw with the COVID stimulus bills$), and then uses this capital that they accumulate to **buy the government**. This has happened, is happening, or will happen in every capitalist country on earth. > Both are extremes. If everything is free, nobody wants to work. Which economic system are you referring to? > I see where you come from, and that feeling is totally understandable, but it is maybe not the most correct solution. I really don’t think you’re familiar with communism. And that’s alright. It’s not taught anywhere because if it was we would have… many more communists. I’m of the belief that 60-70% of the global population are communists but simply haven’t been reached yet.
If we use the examples given to us communism does not work. To think it does is to be one of two things: An egotist who thinks they’re smarter than the people who tried beforehand Or A megalomaniac who thinks what has happened is fine and communism therefore works
Can you give some examples where it isn't actively ratfucked by Capitalists?
Not really. I’ll quote Winston Churchill instead. “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries”
Such edginess
Living on the edge 😎
I used to think I was a communist, but it turns out I was just poor.
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Wuh
There's one thing that's been irking me lately: why does solving climate change cost money? Money doesn't exist. It's entirely imaginary. It doesn't physically cost money to mine ore out of the ground, doesn't physically cost money to power a building, doesn't physically cost money to launch a rocket, etc. So, if someone has a solid plan that could effectively reverse climate change, why is funding an impedance? Here's a bunch of free shit, please get to work saving the goddamn planet thank you!
You know communism is basically a goal that can’t exist on this world cause it needs non existent tech or something like interplanetary mining to push us into post scarcity and even the books of communism don’t paint a clear path to it cause it must come from a good very socialist system. What is communism to you? Cause often they just describe socialism and at worse sound like mad rambling like saying money doesn’t exist when it’s existence under communism is to limit consumption.
> interplanetary mining Bro I’m so drunk I fucking love these comments this sub is an untouched goldmine
\[Post hosed down by stupid Reddit user\]
I think trump should die in The Hague along with putin. Wow.
Oh my, that was a real bad call on my part, so I will hose down the post
Yeah I don’t know where you were coming from there lol
It’s a normal part of puberty. Better dead than red.
r/13or30
Here before 🔒 award
Honestly? This sub is a bastion of free speech. I’m really happy with the moderators here. The best moderator is invisible and has no hands.
Communism never works, as it is dependent upon the absence of corruption in human behavior. Every attempt has gone poorly.