Dude I’m not even at delta (yet, I start soon) I’m at a low cost carrier that flies certain yellow airplanes and my 2nd year pay spanks active duty O-4 pay. Delta is even more.
This is why once I get out I’m using the GI bill to get my MBA and going to the corporate side of the airline world instead of flying again. A senior manager there makes a much as the pilots and you never have to leave your family.
Now the real money is when you make it to the executive level, and you’re clearing millions.
Operations/Strategy, director of xx, analyst, corporate real estate, government affairs, etc.
Not at all, mainly a business degree/MBA. My undergrad was aviation and my career is being a pilot right now. So having that aviation background is a plus, but not necessarily required.
I don't know how to tell you this in any way that doesn't sound blunt. The mid-career Delta pilot Spanks the Air Force Major so hard it should be illegal. I can tell you that I outrank a major by a good amount in the reserve guard component and I still can make so much more as a mid grade major airline pilot then I can on full-time orders with the highest paying BAH. The abuse of operators in the Air Force is absolutely comedic. To conceptualize that you spend millions of tax dollars to make an expert tactician plan the Christmas party should make you angry at your core.
I’m an AF surgeon, won’t say what specialty, but I take up about 180k. My civ colleagues (same job as we are co-located at civilian hospital w military partnerships) started around 450-500k
It’s complicated… let’s say you were ROTC at a private school or academy and then went to an out of state medical school. Then without military pay assistance you’d be looking at half a million in debt (before interest). So probably around 750k by the time you finish residency. Then yes, serving 8 years active makes sense to save that money.
But if you only had the AF pay for med school (and at a state school like I did), I’ll lose about a million dollars of taxable income when compared to colleagues doing the same job.
These are things no HPSP recruiter will ever tell you.
A Delta captain with 6 years, flying a 737/747/787, can pull the range of $300K a year for flying 85 hours a month.
That's half the days at work, for almost 3 times the pay.
If the pilot had 10 years all with Delta they would be at least doubling 0-4 pay. If they switched to Delta within the last year or two they’re making slightly less depending on the location of the 0-4. The tipping point would be around year 3 with Delta. In the airlines seniority doesn’t stay with you as you build up from a regional to the bigs.
Source: https://atpflightschool.com/become-a-pilot/airline-career/major-airline-pilot-salary.html
AF pilot major is just north of $120K/yr.
A 10 year legacy airline pilot can make 3 or 4 times that and have zero duties that don’t involve flying the plane.
The pilot bonus is for guys that were going to stay anyway.
Did my Masters thesis on this topic and your numbers are a bit inflated, but the concept is close. AF rated Major make closer to 135-150k.
However, with the experience they have, they can skip all of the regional airline progression and walk straight into a legacy airline captain job (150-250k).
Their duties still include flying and mission planning, but no deployments, PCSs.
> However, with the experience they have, they can skip all of the regional airline progression and walk straight into a legacy airline captain job (150-250k).
Ehh, We still have to be a first officer first. Flying in the Part 121 world (airlines) is a little bit different and airlines want you to have that experience first.
Still, First officers in their 3rd year make around $150-200k. Captains earn $250k, and $500k+ is not unheard of.
Depends on the airline, but I had a ton of statistics from 2022 about airline pays across the different carriers, and 200-250k was what most Captains at legacy airlines made.
It all very airline and route dependent as well. The people making over 300k, are flying international routes.
That being said, the point is the AF needs to increase bonuses up to a minimum of 100k annually to even have a chance to compete with airline jobs.
Thats not even factoring in the QOL increase of not having to deploy, PCS, do P.E, etc.
This also depends on context. Cause the average major doesn’t actually have the “hours” equivalent to their “experience” due to how long the pipeline takes.
- Used to work aircrew scheduling
Highly dependent on airframe, most heavy pilots that don't fly C-5s will have well over 1500-2k hours by the time their ADSC is up. Fighter pilots likely won't, but their experience isn't a direct translation anyway. There's obviously variability here, but that's about average.
>AF pilot major is just north of $100K/yr.
I call bullshit. I'm a major, but I'm medical which means I have both less TIS and less bonus pay than a pilot, and I'm at a lower BAH base in bumfuck, nowhere. I still clear around $140k.
An O-4 pilot here is already clearing $120k before figuring in bonus/flight pay, let alone the tax benefit.
That's not to say they are outearning airline pilots, but also it's more than what I would call "just north of $100k" unless you are looking at $1 million as the next notable milestone.
Your W-2 doesn't include any BAH, BAS, or pay from times you were deployed or TDY to CZTE areas. An O-4 with 10 years in is getting $99k in base pay today even without any bonus/flight pay or tax benefits.
I’ve been at delta for 6 years. Took early upgrade and should make around 450k total comp. I work 6-11 days per month sitting reserve. I spend 20-25 days a month going on hikes and bike rides with me kids. The air force is clueless.
Take in mind there is a reason a lot of airline pilots maintain at least a Reserve or ANG affiliation because the airline industry is extremely cyclical. Meaning every-time the economy or oil prices start to go south for the airline industry then a lot of pilots low on the seniority list start getting laid off. It pays very well but I have seen many pilots come crawling back to the reserve or ANG unit asking to be activated on orders cause they about to lose their mansion of a home at a fly-in community
The problem is getting there to be qualified and have enough hours to fly multi-engined aircraft carrying passengers on long-haul flights. You start off with McDonald's wages before you get there.
Internet says Satya made $55M total comp last year, and has made ~$1B total comp since 2014 when he became CEO. $2.5M is his base salary, which isn't really how big CEOs are compensated.
Not sure what kind of civilian position were talking about here but as a former WG-10 I can tell you that the active duty airman made more money than me in their BAH alone. Which is one of the many reasons I quit and will probably never work for the DoD again. They don’t pay civilians anything compared to private sector.
Might be an unpopular opinion but there are dozens of entire career fields in the Air Force that are being massively overpaid. Pretty much everyone working in admin (minus contracting) is getting paid a good salary plus retirement contribution matching, a pension plan, and 30 days of leave per year to work what is essential a $16/hr entry level data entry position. UTMs/UDMs, PME instructors, Command execs, etc. making E5 pay are probably making double what the GS counterparts for those jobs would pay.
Also many of these jobs should have been mostly automated out of existence and should just be minimal interaction, human-in-the-loop services. Obviously the Air Force sucks at making software that actually does what it’s supposed to on the first try, but the fact that we waste so much time still manually filing forms is obnoxious.
That's the nature of the military rank system, some people will be overpaid and some people will be underpaid, because you're paid based on your rank and not your job. The Air Force is probably more underpaid than the other branches because more in-demand technical jobs though.
There’s an entire base, Moffett ANGB near Silicon Valley, that can’t keep any full-timers in comm because they just get their training & certs & clearance and go down the road to Google, Yahoo, Meta, etc. I’m on the east coast and almost had to go out for an install for them last year. Pretty wild.
Yeah, it's one of the reasons I think a cyber branch is a bad idea. Yeah, retention bonuses might move the needle somewhat, but being tied to the military rank/pay system from the beginning is going to be a retention problem imo.
I got out in the DMV and clear well over six figures at a 3 letter agency with one cert and no degree. Everyone else I went through with in the 3D1 field did about the same.
Branches keeping an IT force is borderline fraud, waste and abuse of taxpayer funding. It needs to be contracted out.
Ranked pay structures don’t have to be the end-all of compensation. We have plenty of ways to add incentive pay to certain higher demand jobs, the Air Force just can’t because of budget constraints levied on them by Congress.
All I’m pointing out is that a vast majority of people will come in here and complain about how our pay sucks, when in reality there’s plenty of people getting massively overpaid. I would definitely argue that O1 and O2 are by far and away the most overpaid ranks in the Air Force entirely when you contextualize their scope of responsibility.
The article he’s discussing definitely has it right though, the higher you climb in ranks the less you are making comparatively to your civilian peers. However, I think most at that level are aware of this and aren’t arguing for an increase in pay. If it was about the money they could have left the service years ago, at the O6+ ranks you’re staying for reasons of either ego or enjoyment.
O1 and O2s have the same problem as enlisted jobs. They’re all paid the same even though one might be an electric engineer who could be making 6 figures fresh out of school while another is a history major lucky to have a job paying above minimum wage.
Across the board, if the Air Force wants to have pay be comparable (in both ways) with civilian jobs, they need to have substantial incentive pay for way more AFSCs than they currently do.
That just doesn’t jive with the rank structure as it means it would be very common for someone to outrank someone else but be paid substantially less. It would also create more divide between certain job categories.
>O1 and O2 are by far and away the most overpaid ranks in the Air Force
Depends on the career field. In mine, O1s and O2s would be making much more as civilians. If you're talking about the more, dare I say it, nonner careers then I'd agree with you.
There are also other career fields that are way behind what they would pay in the civilian sector. Any SrA Air Traffic Controller (that isn’t a cross-trainee) holds a CTO or a GCA, in the civilian sector GS or FAA that’s a $60,000-70,000/year minimum base salary and a minimum GS-10. (Most are GS-11s). I’m sure there are other career fields that have the same argument.
No lies here. Middle-tier ranks (Both E and O) for some of the higher-demand jobs are definitely where you have to decide if you like doing the Air Force thing or if you want to chase the money. Most Comm/Mx/ATC/Intel types with a reasonable amount of drive will make more on the outside.
It’s a tricky talent retention topic. We inevitably will lose skilled talent because we can’t keep up with civilian sector pay. At the same time we also know we need to man our billets so we let plenty of less-than-stellar folks stay who ideally we would let go, trade off is there are some really dedicated and really talented minority who aren’t only motivated by money that stick around as well.
And a 4yr SrA makes about 55K base when you include BAH/BAS (Single in Midwest US). Throw in medical insurance and other benefits (especially if married with kids) and you're looking at pretty comparable/competitive pay.
Except pay differentials. A controller can expect to make 20-50% more than their base pay on the civilian code in weather, weekend, holiday, and night pay, and if they choose, overtime.
That's fair. And for ATC career field, that's definitely a consideration you have to make. However, in many other career fields, 4yr SrA are majorly overpaid.
In non-technical fields (admin, services, SECFO etc) this is true, but otherwise not so much.
Aircraft mechanics, CE, IT and any field that holds a clearance is being critically underpaid.
The military needs to move away from a rank based pay and adopt a career field based pay system to resolve the retention problem.
If you can't do this basic of math, then you definitely won't be one of the guys that make more in the civilian sector.
4yr SrA Base pay + SrA BAH (Scott AFB) + BAS = 53K. Of that, only your base pay is taxable income.
If we’re considering BAH in that, there’s locality on top of the salary that I gave as well ranging up to 37% a year
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/pdf/2023/saltbl.pdf
> 4yr SrA Base pay + SrA BAH (Scott AFB) + BAS
You do realize that BAH varies from base to base right? We’re not given the same amount BAH.
Holy cow, and you actually have the audacity to think I can’t do basic math? Lol
If you're going to double down on this, then no, I don't think you can do basic math.
YoU dO ReAliZ... Yes, I know BAH is different from base to base. I also know that in order for your take home to be $32K a year, you would have to make negative BAH since even after taxes, your "take home" would be more than $32K with only base pay and BAS calculated.
So my brother, where do you live where the government docks your pay instead of giving you BAH? Are you paying too much in tax? Has this comment made you realize that you need to make a trip to finance?
> Yes, I know BAH is different from base to base
Could have fooled me
> For your take home to be 32K you would have to make negative BAH
Or just maybe, just maybe, the rent matches the BAH so it doesn’t add or subtract, it just artificially inflated the salary without increasing the *actual* take home pay so it’s not actual money being made.
> Has this comment made you realize that you to take a trip to finance
Have you ever considered that a high salary is not always reflective of the money you actually keep? You should, especially considering this is a concept taught to kids in the 11th grade
So since your BAH matches rent, it doesn't count as compensation? Do civilians not have to pay for housing out of their salary? Do you even hear yourself?
And your last bit? What? Making more money doesn't always mean you make more money? Do you need a command directed drug test?
This is why SNCOs drink. I'm not discussing this further with you.
I think this all ties back into the idea that the military isn’t supposed to be a long term career for everyone.
When I first joined I was told most were expected to do one contract and pursue other careers. Looking back at it now, it seems like that’s how the military was designed to be. The few that are truly exceptional are incentivized to stay, but most are eventually pushed out. Which makes sense because overpaying certain career fields isn’t a stable way to run an organization.
I guess it really is working as intended
This.
People forget that the military (and government service in general) is meant to be a *civic duty*. If it just so happens to boost your career, great. But the notion of the Air Force (or any branch for that matter) being a 'safe' career is simply not what it was designed to be.
Yes, I myself have fooled myself into believing this was going to be a permanent safe/career for me. But in about 5 years I will be hitting HYT. Meanwhile some airman I knew who as an A1C are already putting on staff.
At first I thought it was because I simply wasn’t being recognized. This was a foolish way of thinking. After failing to put on staff a second time. Iv come to realize it’s because I am probably not that great an airman. Like yes it’s awesome I’m getting my M.A, no PT failures, no history of paperwork, etc. But that doesn’t make someone great.
What really makes someone great is what they bring to the unit, and how they raise others. I finally realize this now.
I'm glad you carved out 6Cs from other admins. I'm making $110k/yr and I have buddies making slightly less to much more, and we are working less hard than we did as E3's/E4's. That's not counting the VA, and that's not counting the proxemic time value rule of money (money made sooner is worth more than money made later, due to things like being able to invest or using it for negotiating leverage for further promotions/job opportunities). Retired 6C chiefs who go into the private sector with the VA + a retirement check might make more money on paper, but I have a 16+ year head start.
With all the additional duties UTMs and UDMs are put onto them, I would say they are underpaid. Most of them are doing the jobs of 3 to 4 more people along with their primary duties.
Overpaid compared to the outside, but not based on fairly compensating full-time hours and labor. But this is the only place they could be doing those jobs and not have to worry about housing or medical care in the US. They're certainly fairly compensated.
The fact that corporate jobs are a rat race only benefits us.
Yes, I was talking to my flight about it a few days ago. They thought I was crazy. Wanted to show them what I was talking about.
Plus, this is one of those articles I think about from time to time (weird, I know) and every time I search for it online, I can't ever find it. I don't even know if they have an archive of it posted online since it is so old.
The logic certainly checks out. Managing a military service is dramatically more complex than managing a Fortune 100 company, while the newest 18 year old recruits are getting pretty decent pay while in full job training, which usually *costs* money.
The average CEO makes an obscene amount. I wish corporate taxes were partly based on the percentage difference between the average wage and the highest paid CEO.
💯 my global company with 30,000 employees was just bought out by a private equity firm because we’ve struggled the past 18 months. The CEO and other C-suite leaders each got $500,000 bonus for completing the deal; which was required because the company has struggled under their leadership. 🤔Infuriating.
I don't have a lead for you, however I will say pay compression at the very top is a thing. There's a bill in the works right now that attempts to address this. Essentially what's happening is there's a limit on how much federal employees can make based on what congress gets paid (so the CSAF can't earn more than congress, for example).
As a result, the top end has a cutoff where they literally can't earn more, even if their experience and position would in the civilian world.
This is probably what causes articles like you're talking about to be a thing. At the lowest level, military members earn more than a fresh 18yo (when accounting for food and housing being paid for), and those at the top are limited by law and therefore make less than a civilian in a similar position would.
The cap that the military is tied to the [civilian executive schedule](https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Basic-Pay/FAQ/), but there is nothing in Congress to change that.
The current bill is to lift a cap on GS employees from earning more than the lowest end of the executive pay scale.
What has happened is that the executive pay scale only goes up by the across the board GS pay increase while some localities have their pay go up by that and the locality (percentage above the base GS) go up as well. So places like NCR, San Fran, NYC, etc have GS-15s that cap earlier. Here is the DC schedule and you can see that GS-15s cap at [183k](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/pdf/2023/DCB.pdf). They can go SES but that usually isn't a huge increase pay despite a whole other host of downsides.
But there are non-president federal employees that make more than congress. Fauci, for example, did, as well as a number of other medical/VHA employees https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100
Hot take: Flag Officers make more than enough money. They don’t need a raise or for the upper limit of their earning potential to be increased. They’re already earning well over $100k/year just in base pay (they max out allowable pay at 24 years as a 3 star, which is $211k/year or at 34 years as a 2 star) and they’re going to make insane money when they retire and join the board of contractor x, on top of 75-100% retirement
Doing this will only make our budget problem worse, unless we actually divest from needless programs and assets they should’ve been retired decades ago but are being kept alive by congressional pet projects
Oh I completely agree, I'm not saying the high end needs more money, simply that the reason they may get paid less than a civilian equivalent is because of the current limits.
My other hot take, which I’ve heard and slowly agree with from senior officers, is that officers over a certain grade don’t need an annual pay raise and that those funds should be allocated toward enlisted raises (I’ve also heard senior officers voice is as no officer needs an annual pay raise)
As not an officer I can definitely agree with that too...there comes a point where adding more dollars on what you already have is unnecessary excess.
I'm in a decently high GS position and while I want more money so I can retire earlier, I live comfortably on nearly half my gross income (the excess just goes into retirement/investment accounts). If it wasn't for the "work till you die" mindset that most very high earners seem to want for the general public (which forces the rest to have to save for retirement), I'd be fine earning less than I am now.
It's kinda sad IMHO that we have people who could retire for life writing the laws that affect those working for minimum wage.
Substantially more than enough. Especially when you consider the indentured servants (enlisted aides) they are given, still getting bah even if on base, and a myriad of other perks.
There was a YouTube by I want to say Vox that talked about the General to board member at defense contractors pipeline and it mentioned this as well. Maybe that could augment your arguement
So every four years the DoD reviews military compensation, comparing it against similar civilian populations. It's not a 100% apples to apples comparison as some jobs are not comparable, so instead it uses education levels (HS, AAS, some college, etc.) to make the evaluations. Overall, the study found enlisted are paid 40-80%, and officers 60-120% higher than similarly educated civilians and sees steady increases throughout a 20-year career (a different study was done for post 20), where most civilians flatline at a certain point.
It's a 70 page document, but there is an Executive Summary with a TL:DR.
https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/Reports/SR04_Chapter_1.pdf
FYI, there is not an Anytime fitness near me and the gym that is convenient to me is $60 a month. On the bright side I don't get an LOC if I'm late or don't go in the mornings.
Crazy how this triggered a memory. Definitely remember seeing that article all those years ago in the mid-2000s. Unless someone kept a copy of the original paper publication, it would be extremely hard to find now.
You're not alone, I remember it and IIRC, it was in the AF/Military Times. Also, it was about the same time we received 2-raises in a year, 2-year in a row. In [2000](https://www.navycs.com/charts/2000-military-pay-chart.html) and [2001](https://www.navycs.com/charts/2001-military-pay-chart.html). Bothe years there was a COLA for the entire AD force, and an additional boost for selected mid-grade enlisted/officer paygrades.
It's quite possible those raises were in response to the articles findings; I remember the overall argument and the raises, but that's about all the details I got. Hope this helps, best of luck.
RAND has a [report](https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR2300/RR2396/RAND_RR2396.pdf) that may reference or be what you’re referring to. Lots of assumptions being made so keep those in mind.
Comparing military pay to civilian pay throughout the ages can be as complex as deciphering the odds of finding the Loch Ness monster. It's a dance between factors like the time period, geographical location, economic conditions, technological advancements, and societal norms. However, fear not, for I'm here to give you a rundown that's more enlightening than the discovery of a three-fiddy per hour treasure.
Back in Ancient Times, think ancient Rome and Greece, military service was like a civic duty with a twist. Soldiers weren't handed a regular paycheck but were bestowed with land grants and such instead. The value of these rewards resembled a rollercoaster, riding the socioeconomic structure of society like a champ.
Skip to the Medieval Period, and you'll waltz into feudal systems reigning across the globe. Knights and warriors hit the jackpot with land grants in return for their military mojo. The income from these lands? Well, let's just say it danced like a squirrel during a nut feast, depending on the land's location and productivity.
Moving on to the Early Modern Era, as feudal systems waved goodbye, military and civilian pay started doing a clearer cha-cha. Sometimes, professional armies emerged, with soldiers getting a taste of the wage pie. But hey, those wages were often humbler than a skilled artisan's masterpiece or a merchant's treasure.
When the Industrial Revolution and the Modern Era hit the stage, military life took on a more standardized groove. Military professionalism and conscription danced in sync with the rise of nation-states. Military pay started putting on its big boy pants and getting closer to civilian wages. Yet, it wasn't a synchronized swim across the board; it varied like a game of chance, much like playing the odds of finding that elusive Loch Ness monster.
World Wars and Post-War Periods were like a DJ dropping the bass. Military pay skyrocketed during conflicts to match the demands of the battlefield. World War II, for example, saw soldiers' pay getting a boost like a rocket launch to encourage enlistment. Post-war, veterans found themselves with educational and housing benefits, making their compensation package look shinier than a rare sighting of Nessie.
Now, in the Contemporary Era, modern Western countries started playing a more harmonious tune. Military pay began to rival civilian wages, especially for high-ranking and specialized roles. But hold on, the military knew how to sweeten the deal. They added healthcare, housing allowances, retirement plans, and educational opportunities to the mix, making it a package deal as tempting as a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
Remember, though, these are just the dance moves of a broad generalization. The specifics swayed like leaves in the wind, shaped by different countries, times, and unique quirks. And just like a cryptid hiding in the depths, the comparison between military and civilian pay has always been influenced by the bigger picture of economic and societal factors, making direct comparisons a challenging jig.
For what it's worth that E1-4 thing is mostly because folks in that age range typically aren't professionally educated or meet the criteria for a decent job that can in theory support a small family.
I'm willing to bet if you broke out the pay/benefits between educated and uneducated across the enlisted ranks you'd see that uneducated people in the military fair way better than civilians. Also, no...CCAF isn't professionally educated. Taking a math, english, and speech class and attaching your tech school doesn't mean anything outside of you tossing it on an EPR once and getting a strat as a SNCO.
>I'm willing to bet if you broke out the pay/benefits between educated and uneducated across the enlisted ranks you'd see that uneducated people in the military fair way better than civilians.
I agree.
Absolutely.
The medical is free while you are serving, but you do pay for it once you are retired. It is really low cost and isn't nearly as expensive as most other plans though.
This study has a lot of good graphs and if you have the stomach for a longer read, may give you what you are looking for while not being the exact source you remember: https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/Reports/SR04_Chapter_1.pdf
The articles no longer applicable. There’s a shortage of skilled blue collar labor now days that wasn’t nearly as bad in the early 2000’s as there is in 2023. So blue collar skilled labor jobs are getting higher pay when corrected for inflation than they were in the early 2000’s. Meanwhile military pay corrected for inflation has probably fallen since the early 2000’s.
Let's just say my local Costco is starting $24/hr with a 2.5% matching 401k and decent limited healthcare. This is more than competitive when compared to E1-E5.
You miss out on BAS, but get free food and membership discounts. You miss out on BAH, but you basically get to live wherever you want. You miss out on TRICARE, but you don't have to wait 3 months for an appointment.
TLDR; don't enlist and work at Costco.
The Library of Congress does a report every 4 years that details military compensation.
The latest one (13th) is here https://militarypay.defense.gov/References/QRMC/
It details the goals of enlisted and officer pay.
If I am not mistaken, that same article pointed out all of the benefits (healthcare, BAH/BAS, uniform pay, etc) and it I was worth like 20k a year on the outside…I remember it well. If you go off base pay and add that stuff in, I was paid very well for my time in, plus a retirement at 40…money.
If a Fortune 500 CEO woke up one day with O-10 money they’d throw themselves out a window.
Same with an airline pilot…
I don’t know anything about commercial aviation. Does a mid-career Delta pilot make that much more than a USAF major?
Dude I’m not even at delta (yet, I start soon) I’m at a low cost carrier that flies certain yellow airplanes and my 2nd year pay spanks active duty O-4 pay. Delta is even more.
This is why once I get out I’m using the GI bill to get my MBA and going to the corporate side of the airline world instead of flying again. A senior manager there makes a much as the pilots and you never have to leave your family. Now the real money is when you make it to the executive level, and you’re clearing millions.
Amen. The C-suite life is incredible at the airlines. And the options are almost endless. Get some!
What are some of the corporate jobs at airlines? Would you had to have been a pilot at an airlines at some point to get a gig like that?
Operations/Strategy, director of xx, analyst, corporate real estate, government affairs, etc. Not at all, mainly a business degree/MBA. My undergrad was aviation and my career is being a pilot right now. So having that aviation background is a plus, but not necessarily required.
I don't know how to tell you this in any way that doesn't sound blunt. The mid-career Delta pilot Spanks the Air Force Major so hard it should be illegal. I can tell you that I outrank a major by a good amount in the reserve guard component and I still can make so much more as a mid grade major airline pilot then I can on full-time orders with the highest paying BAH. The abuse of operators in the Air Force is absolutely comedic. To conceptualize that you spend millions of tax dollars to make an expert tactician plan the Christmas party should make you angry at your core.
👆He’s right you know.
"How much can an airline pilot actually make?" *googles* "*Holy Fuck*"
It’s the same with doctors. Making 90k out of school when my classmates are making triple, working less hrs
I’m an AF surgeon, won’t say what specialty, but I take up about 180k. My civ colleagues (same job as we are co-located at civilian hospital w military partnerships) started around 450-500k
Does the lack of student loans make that at least a little closer in terms of take home?
It’s complicated… let’s say you were ROTC at a private school or academy and then went to an out of state medical school. Then without military pay assistance you’d be looking at half a million in debt (before interest). So probably around 750k by the time you finish residency. Then yes, serving 8 years active makes sense to save that money. But if you only had the AF pay for med school (and at a state school like I did), I’ll lose about a million dollars of taxable income when compared to colleagues doing the same job. These are things no HPSP recruiter will ever tell you.
Much appreciated. Mind if I dm you?
Definitely
A Delta captain with 6 years, flying a 737/747/787, can pull the range of $300K a year for flying 85 hours a month. That's half the days at work, for almost 3 times the pay.
Working as a link manager contractor beats my pay as a staff like a red headed step child…. 4 more years left
If the pilot had 10 years all with Delta they would be at least doubling 0-4 pay. If they switched to Delta within the last year or two they’re making slightly less depending on the location of the 0-4. The tipping point would be around year 3 with Delta. In the airlines seniority doesn’t stay with you as you build up from a regional to the bigs. Source: https://atpflightschool.com/become-a-pilot/airline-career/major-airline-pilot-salary.html
Most military pilots won't ever have to slum it in the regionals, by the time their ADSC is up, they can usually walk right into a major
AF pilot major is just north of $120K/yr. A 10 year legacy airline pilot can make 3 or 4 times that and have zero duties that don’t involve flying the plane. The pilot bonus is for guys that were going to stay anyway.
Did my Masters thesis on this topic and your numbers are a bit inflated, but the concept is close. AF rated Major make closer to 135-150k. However, with the experience they have, they can skip all of the regional airline progression and walk straight into a legacy airline captain job (150-250k). Their duties still include flying and mission planning, but no deployments, PCSs.
> However, with the experience they have, they can skip all of the regional airline progression and walk straight into a legacy airline captain job (150-250k). Ehh, We still have to be a first officer first. Flying in the Part 121 world (airlines) is a little bit different and airlines want you to have that experience first. Still, First officers in their 3rd year make around $150-200k. Captains earn $250k, and $500k+ is not unheard of.
Depends on the airline, but I had a ton of statistics from 2022 about airline pays across the different carriers, and 200-250k was what most Captains at legacy airlines made. It all very airline and route dependent as well. The people making over 300k, are flying international routes. That being said, the point is the AF needs to increase bonuses up to a minimum of 100k annually to even have a chance to compete with airline jobs. Thats not even factoring in the QOL increase of not having to deploy, PCS, do P.E, etc.
This also depends on context. Cause the average major doesn’t actually have the “hours” equivalent to their “experience” due to how long the pipeline takes. - Used to work aircrew scheduling
Highly dependent on airframe, most heavy pilots that don't fly C-5s will have well over 1500-2k hours by the time their ADSC is up. Fighter pilots likely won't, but their experience isn't a direct translation anyway. There's obviously variability here, but that's about average.
>AF pilot major is just north of $100K/yr. I call bullshit. I'm a major, but I'm medical which means I have both less TIS and less bonus pay than a pilot, and I'm at a lower BAH base in bumfuck, nowhere. I still clear around $140k. An O-4 pilot here is already clearing $120k before figuring in bonus/flight pay, let alone the tax benefit. That's not to say they are outearning airline pilots, but also it's more than what I would call "just north of $100k" unless you are looking at $1 million as the next notable milestone.
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Your W-2 doesn't include any BAH, BAS, or pay from times you were deployed or TDY to CZTE areas. An O-4 with 10 years in is getting $99k in base pay today even without any bonus/flight pay or tax benefits.
Fine, dude. You’re missing the point.
The point is airline pilots make more, which is fine, but you don't do your argument any favors by exaggerating the gap.
Would an edit suit your pedantic highness?
I’ve been at delta for 6 years. Took early upgrade and should make around 450k total comp. I work 6-11 days per month sitting reserve. I spend 20-25 days a month going on hikes and bike rides with me kids. The air force is clueless.
Take in mind there is a reason a lot of airline pilots maintain at least a Reserve or ANG affiliation because the airline industry is extremely cyclical. Meaning every-time the economy or oil prices start to go south for the airline industry then a lot of pilots low on the seniority list start getting laid off. It pays very well but I have seen many pilots come crawling back to the reserve or ANG unit asking to be activated on orders cause they about to lose their mansion of a home at a fly-in community
Or…..we stay in the reserves to retire and get the medical benefits
Far, far more money, and far, far less queep and overall hardship.
I'm in the guard and have drill status O5s that turn down AGr tours because of the pay cut as an FO on Delta/United/American/FedEx
The problem is getting there to be qualified and have enough hours to fly multi-engined aircraft carrying passengers on long-haul flights. You start off with McDonald's wages before you get there.
I’m a captain at delta and a Maj in the reserves. My airline salary is 4x what I would be making on AD
It depends. If an O-3 pilot woke up one day and found themselves flying a commuter flight they'd jump out with no parachute.
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Internet says Satya made $55M total comp last year, and has made ~$1B total comp since 2014 when he became CEO. $2.5M is his base salary, which isn't really how big CEOs are compensated.
Not sure what kind of civilian position were talking about here but as a former WG-10 I can tell you that the active duty airman made more money than me in their BAH alone. Which is one of the many reasons I quit and will probably never work for the DoD again. They don’t pay civilians anything compared to private sector.
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Hadn't thought about a physical library. Thanks. I may have to try that. I wonder if my wing historian keeps old Air Force Times issues.
Might be an unpopular opinion but there are dozens of entire career fields in the Air Force that are being massively overpaid. Pretty much everyone working in admin (minus contracting) is getting paid a good salary plus retirement contribution matching, a pension plan, and 30 days of leave per year to work what is essential a $16/hr entry level data entry position. UTMs/UDMs, PME instructors, Command execs, etc. making E5 pay are probably making double what the GS counterparts for those jobs would pay. Also many of these jobs should have been mostly automated out of existence and should just be minimal interaction, human-in-the-loop services. Obviously the Air Force sucks at making software that actually does what it’s supposed to on the first try, but the fact that we waste so much time still manually filing forms is obnoxious.
That's the nature of the military rank system, some people will be overpaid and some people will be underpaid, because you're paid based on your rank and not your job. The Air Force is probably more underpaid than the other branches because more in-demand technical jobs though.
There’s an entire base, Moffett ANGB near Silicon Valley, that can’t keep any full-timers in comm because they just get their training & certs & clearance and go down the road to Google, Yahoo, Meta, etc. I’m on the east coast and almost had to go out for an install for them last year. Pretty wild.
Yeah, it's one of the reasons I think a cyber branch is a bad idea. Yeah, retention bonuses might move the needle somewhat, but being tied to the military rank/pay system from the beginning is going to be a retention problem imo.
Only if the Cyber Force gets its own pay schedule.
I got out in the DMV and clear well over six figures at a 3 letter agency with one cert and no degree. Everyone else I went through with in the 3D1 field did about the same. Branches keeping an IT force is borderline fraud, waste and abuse of taxpayer funding. It needs to be contracted out.
Ranked pay structures don’t have to be the end-all of compensation. We have plenty of ways to add incentive pay to certain higher demand jobs, the Air Force just can’t because of budget constraints levied on them by Congress. All I’m pointing out is that a vast majority of people will come in here and complain about how our pay sucks, when in reality there’s plenty of people getting massively overpaid. I would definitely argue that O1 and O2 are by far and away the most overpaid ranks in the Air Force entirely when you contextualize their scope of responsibility. The article he’s discussing definitely has it right though, the higher you climb in ranks the less you are making comparatively to your civilian peers. However, I think most at that level are aware of this and aren’t arguing for an increase in pay. If it was about the money they could have left the service years ago, at the O6+ ranks you’re staying for reasons of either ego or enjoyment.
I don’t disagree with you, but the military would never get O recruits without that pay scale.
O1 and O2s have the same problem as enlisted jobs. They’re all paid the same even though one might be an electric engineer who could be making 6 figures fresh out of school while another is a history major lucky to have a job paying above minimum wage. Across the board, if the Air Force wants to have pay be comparable (in both ways) with civilian jobs, they need to have substantial incentive pay for way more AFSCs than they currently do. That just doesn’t jive with the rank structure as it means it would be very common for someone to outrank someone else but be paid substantially less. It would also create more divide between certain job categories.
>O1 and O2 are by far and away the most overpaid ranks in the Air Force Depends on the career field. In mine, O1s and O2s would be making much more as civilians. If you're talking about the more, dare I say it, nonner careers then I'd agree with you.
There are also other career fields that are way behind what they would pay in the civilian sector. Any SrA Air Traffic Controller (that isn’t a cross-trainee) holds a CTO or a GCA, in the civilian sector GS or FAA that’s a $60,000-70,000/year minimum base salary and a minimum GS-10. (Most are GS-11s). I’m sure there are other career fields that have the same argument.
No lies here. Middle-tier ranks (Both E and O) for some of the higher-demand jobs are definitely where you have to decide if you like doing the Air Force thing or if you want to chase the money. Most Comm/Mx/ATC/Intel types with a reasonable amount of drive will make more on the outside. It’s a tricky talent retention topic. We inevitably will lose skilled talent because we can’t keep up with civilian sector pay. At the same time we also know we need to man our billets so we let plenty of less-than-stellar folks stay who ideally we would let go, trade off is there are some really dedicated and really talented minority who aren’t only motivated by money that stick around as well.
Love how you laid the issue out and I wish more people understood (and applied) this in their day-to-day.
And a 4yr SrA makes about 55K base when you include BAH/BAS (Single in Midwest US). Throw in medical insurance and other benefits (especially if married with kids) and you're looking at pretty comparable/competitive pay.
Except pay differentials. A controller can expect to make 20-50% more than their base pay on the civilian code in weather, weekend, holiday, and night pay, and if they choose, overtime.
That's fair. And for ATC career field, that's definitely a consideration you have to make. However, in many other career fields, 4yr SrA are majorly overpaid.
In non-technical fields (admin, services, SECFO etc) this is true, but otherwise not so much. Aircraft mechanics, CE, IT and any field that holds a clearance is being critically underpaid. The military needs to move away from a rank based pay and adopt a career field based pay system to resolve the retention problem.
> 4yrs SrA makes about 55K base when you include BAH/BAH No we don’t lmao. My salary/take home pay is about 32k a year.
If you can't do this basic of math, then you definitely won't be one of the guys that make more in the civilian sector. 4yr SrA Base pay + SrA BAH (Scott AFB) + BAS = 53K. Of that, only your base pay is taxable income.
If we’re considering BAH in that, there’s locality on top of the salary that I gave as well ranging up to 37% a year https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/pdf/2023/saltbl.pdf
> 4yr SrA Base pay + SrA BAH (Scott AFB) + BAS You do realize that BAH varies from base to base right? We’re not given the same amount BAH. Holy cow, and you actually have the audacity to think I can’t do basic math? Lol
If you're going to double down on this, then no, I don't think you can do basic math. YoU dO ReAliZ... Yes, I know BAH is different from base to base. I also know that in order for your take home to be $32K a year, you would have to make negative BAH since even after taxes, your "take home" would be more than $32K with only base pay and BAS calculated. So my brother, where do you live where the government docks your pay instead of giving you BAH? Are you paying too much in tax? Has this comment made you realize that you need to make a trip to finance?
> Yes, I know BAH is different from base to base Could have fooled me > For your take home to be 32K you would have to make negative BAH Or just maybe, just maybe, the rent matches the BAH so it doesn’t add or subtract, it just artificially inflated the salary without increasing the *actual* take home pay so it’s not actual money being made. > Has this comment made you realize that you to take a trip to finance Have you ever considered that a high salary is not always reflective of the money you actually keep? You should, especially considering this is a concept taught to kids in the 11th grade
So since your BAH matches rent, it doesn't count as compensation? Do civilians not have to pay for housing out of their salary? Do you even hear yourself? And your last bit? What? Making more money doesn't always mean you make more money? Do you need a command directed drug test? This is why SNCOs drink. I'm not discussing this further with you.
Drink away lol
I think this all ties back into the idea that the military isn’t supposed to be a long term career for everyone. When I first joined I was told most were expected to do one contract and pursue other careers. Looking back at it now, it seems like that’s how the military was designed to be. The few that are truly exceptional are incentivized to stay, but most are eventually pushed out. Which makes sense because overpaying certain career fields isn’t a stable way to run an organization. I guess it really is working as intended
This. People forget that the military (and government service in general) is meant to be a *civic duty*. If it just so happens to boost your career, great. But the notion of the Air Force (or any branch for that matter) being a 'safe' career is simply not what it was designed to be.
Yes, I myself have fooled myself into believing this was going to be a permanent safe/career for me. But in about 5 years I will be hitting HYT. Meanwhile some airman I knew who as an A1C are already putting on staff. At first I thought it was because I simply wasn’t being recognized. This was a foolish way of thinking. After failing to put on staff a second time. Iv come to realize it’s because I am probably not that great an airman. Like yes it’s awesome I’m getting my M.A, no PT failures, no history of paperwork, etc. But that doesn’t make someone great. What really makes someone great is what they bring to the unit, and how they raise others. I finally realize this now.
Great points.
I'm glad you carved out 6Cs from other admins. I'm making $110k/yr and I have buddies making slightly less to much more, and we are working less hard than we did as E3's/E4's. That's not counting the VA, and that's not counting the proxemic time value rule of money (money made sooner is worth more than money made later, due to things like being able to invest or using it for negotiating leverage for further promotions/job opportunities). Retired 6C chiefs who go into the private sector with the VA + a retirement check might make more money on paper, but I have a 16+ year head start.
With all the additional duties UTMs and UDMs are put onto them, I would say they are underpaid. Most of them are doing the jobs of 3 to 4 more people along with their primary duties.
Overpaid compared to the outside, but not based on fairly compensating full-time hours and labor. But this is the only place they could be doing those jobs and not have to worry about housing or medical care in the US. They're certainly fairly compensated. The fact that corporate jobs are a rat race only benefits us.
Any particular reason you’re looking for 20 year old data?
Yes, I was talking to my flight about it a few days ago. They thought I was crazy. Wanted to show them what I was talking about. Plus, this is one of those articles I think about from time to time (weird, I know) and every time I search for it online, I can't ever find it. I don't even know if they have an archive of it posted online since it is so old.
The logic certainly checks out. Managing a military service is dramatically more complex than managing a Fortune 100 company, while the newest 18 year old recruits are getting pretty decent pay while in full job training, which usually *costs* money.
Indeed.
You could probably go to the Air Force times website and use the contact us option
I did. I emailed a couple of folks in the editorial department.
Sounds like you're on the right track then
We'll see if they get back to me!
Even if it’s outdated, you should post the chart!
I will if I can get it.
The average CEO makes an obscene amount. I wish corporate taxes were partly based on the percentage difference between the average wage and the highest paid CEO.
💯 my global company with 30,000 employees was just bought out by a private equity firm because we’ve struggled the past 18 months. The CEO and other C-suite leaders each got $500,000 bonus for completing the deal; which was required because the company has struggled under their leadership. 🤔Infuriating.
I don't have a lead for you, however I will say pay compression at the very top is a thing. There's a bill in the works right now that attempts to address this. Essentially what's happening is there's a limit on how much federal employees can make based on what congress gets paid (so the CSAF can't earn more than congress, for example). As a result, the top end has a cutoff where they literally can't earn more, even if their experience and position would in the civilian world. This is probably what causes articles like you're talking about to be a thing. At the lowest level, military members earn more than a fresh 18yo (when accounting for food and housing being paid for), and those at the top are limited by law and therefore make less than a civilian in a similar position would.
The cap that the military is tied to the [civilian executive schedule](https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Basic-Pay/FAQ/), but there is nothing in Congress to change that. The current bill is to lift a cap on GS employees from earning more than the lowest end of the executive pay scale. What has happened is that the executive pay scale only goes up by the across the board GS pay increase while some localities have their pay go up by that and the locality (percentage above the base GS) go up as well. So places like NCR, San Fran, NYC, etc have GS-15s that cap earlier. Here is the DC schedule and you can see that GS-15s cap at [183k](https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/pdf/2023/DCB.pdf). They can go SES but that usually isn't a huge increase pay despite a whole other host of downsides.
Makes sense. Thanks.
But there are non-president federal employees that make more than congress. Fauci, for example, did, as well as a number of other medical/VHA employees https://www.federalpay.org/employees/top-100
Medical is a bit of an exception, I'm only talking about the DoD-wide pay caps on the average position.
O
Medical uses bonuses on top of bonuses to compensate without breaking the rules. And except for family med/pediatrics it still doesn't compare.
Hot take: Flag Officers make more than enough money. They don’t need a raise or for the upper limit of their earning potential to be increased. They’re already earning well over $100k/year just in base pay (they max out allowable pay at 24 years as a 3 star, which is $211k/year or at 34 years as a 2 star) and they’re going to make insane money when they retire and join the board of contractor x, on top of 75-100% retirement Doing this will only make our budget problem worse, unless we actually divest from needless programs and assets they should’ve been retired decades ago but are being kept alive by congressional pet projects
Oh I completely agree, I'm not saying the high end needs more money, simply that the reason they may get paid less than a civilian equivalent is because of the current limits.
My other hot take, which I’ve heard and slowly agree with from senior officers, is that officers over a certain grade don’t need an annual pay raise and that those funds should be allocated toward enlisted raises (I’ve also heard senior officers voice is as no officer needs an annual pay raise)
Taking money from higher ranking officers and throwing it at the enlisted would probably give us all maybe $5 per year.
This is retarded. No one thinks this. " I know you run a squadron but you make a 100k so no inflation raise for you."
As not an officer I can definitely agree with that too...there comes a point where adding more dollars on what you already have is unnecessary excess. I'm in a decently high GS position and while I want more money so I can retire earlier, I live comfortably on nearly half my gross income (the excess just goes into retirement/investment accounts). If it wasn't for the "work till you die" mindset that most very high earners seem to want for the general public (which forces the rest to have to save for retirement), I'd be fine earning less than I am now. It's kinda sad IMHO that we have people who could retire for life writing the laws that affect those working for minimum wage.
And there's too many of them. https://ndupress.ndu.edu/Publications/Article/1325984/are-there-too-many-general-officers-for-todays-military/
Substantially more than enough. Especially when you consider the indentured servants (enlisted aides) they are given, still getting bah even if on base, and a myriad of other perks.
There was a YouTube by I want to say Vox that talked about the General to board member at defense contractors pipeline and it mentioned this as well. Maybe that could augment your arguement
Thanks!
So every four years the DoD reviews military compensation, comparing it against similar civilian populations. It's not a 100% apples to apples comparison as some jobs are not comparable, so instead it uses education levels (HS, AAS, some college, etc.) to make the evaluations. Overall, the study found enlisted are paid 40-80%, and officers 60-120% higher than similarly educated civilians and sees steady increases throughout a 20-year career (a different study was done for post 20), where most civilians flatline at a certain point. It's a 70 page document, but there is an Executive Summary with a TL:DR. https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/Reports/SR04_Chapter_1.pdf
Thanks.
B--b-b-but your gym on base is equivalent to a $200 membership in the civilian wurld. 😂 Anytime Fitness is $10 a month.
Haha
FYI, there is not an Anytime fitness near me and the gym that is convenient to me is $60 a month. On the bright side I don't get an LOC if I'm late or don't go in the mornings.
Crazy how this triggered a memory. Definitely remember seeing that article all those years ago in the mid-2000s. Unless someone kept a copy of the original paper publication, it would be extremely hard to find now.
Glad to see I'm not the only one.
I remember it too and I think you got the timeframe right.
Thanks.
You're not alone, I remember it and IIRC, it was in the AF/Military Times. Also, it was about the same time we received 2-raises in a year, 2-year in a row. In [2000](https://www.navycs.com/charts/2000-military-pay-chart.html) and [2001](https://www.navycs.com/charts/2001-military-pay-chart.html). Bothe years there was a COLA for the entire AD force, and an additional boost for selected mid-grade enlisted/officer paygrades. It's quite possible those raises were in response to the articles findings; I remember the overall argument and the raises, but that's about all the details I got. Hope this helps, best of luck.
Good looking out, thanks!
RAND has a [report](https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR2300/RR2396/RAND_RR2396.pdf) that may reference or be what you’re referring to. Lots of assumptions being made so keep those in mind.
Haven't seen this. I will check it out, thanks!
Comparing military pay to civilian pay throughout the ages can be as complex as deciphering the odds of finding the Loch Ness monster. It's a dance between factors like the time period, geographical location, economic conditions, technological advancements, and societal norms. However, fear not, for I'm here to give you a rundown that's more enlightening than the discovery of a three-fiddy per hour treasure. Back in Ancient Times, think ancient Rome and Greece, military service was like a civic duty with a twist. Soldiers weren't handed a regular paycheck but were bestowed with land grants and such instead. The value of these rewards resembled a rollercoaster, riding the socioeconomic structure of society like a champ. Skip to the Medieval Period, and you'll waltz into feudal systems reigning across the globe. Knights and warriors hit the jackpot with land grants in return for their military mojo. The income from these lands? Well, let's just say it danced like a squirrel during a nut feast, depending on the land's location and productivity. Moving on to the Early Modern Era, as feudal systems waved goodbye, military and civilian pay started doing a clearer cha-cha. Sometimes, professional armies emerged, with soldiers getting a taste of the wage pie. But hey, those wages were often humbler than a skilled artisan's masterpiece or a merchant's treasure. When the Industrial Revolution and the Modern Era hit the stage, military life took on a more standardized groove. Military professionalism and conscription danced in sync with the rise of nation-states. Military pay started putting on its big boy pants and getting closer to civilian wages. Yet, it wasn't a synchronized swim across the board; it varied like a game of chance, much like playing the odds of finding that elusive Loch Ness monster. World Wars and Post-War Periods were like a DJ dropping the bass. Military pay skyrocketed during conflicts to match the demands of the battlefield. World War II, for example, saw soldiers' pay getting a boost like a rocket launch to encourage enlistment. Post-war, veterans found themselves with educational and housing benefits, making their compensation package look shinier than a rare sighting of Nessie. Now, in the Contemporary Era, modern Western countries started playing a more harmonious tune. Military pay began to rival civilian wages, especially for high-ranking and specialized roles. But hold on, the military knew how to sweeten the deal. They added healthcare, housing allowances, retirement plans, and educational opportunities to the mix, making it a package deal as tempting as a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Remember, though, these are just the dance moves of a broad generalization. The specifics swayed like leaves in the wind, shaped by different countries, times, and unique quirks. And just like a cryptid hiding in the depths, the comparison between military and civilian pay has always been influenced by the bigger picture of economic and societal factors, making direct comparisons a challenging jig.
>They added healthcare, housing allowances, retirement plans, I'm here for it!
For what it's worth that E1-4 thing is mostly because folks in that age range typically aren't professionally educated or meet the criteria for a decent job that can in theory support a small family. I'm willing to bet if you broke out the pay/benefits between educated and uneducated across the enlisted ranks you'd see that uneducated people in the military fair way better than civilians. Also, no...CCAF isn't professionally educated. Taking a math, english, and speech class and attaching your tech school doesn't mean anything outside of you tossing it on an EPR once and getting a strat as a SNCO.
>I'm willing to bet if you broke out the pay/benefits between educated and uneducated across the enlisted ranks you'd see that uneducated people in the military fair way better than civilians. I agree.
Non-military, but I’m thinking free medical for life, housing allowance, and a 20-and-out pension makes military pay very attractive.
Absolutely. The medical is free while you are serving, but you do pay for it once you are retired. It is really low cost and isn't nearly as expensive as most other plans though.
This study has a lot of good graphs and if you have the stomach for a longer read, may give you what you are looking for while not being the exact source you remember: https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/Reports/SR04_Chapter_1.pdf
Thanks for sharing. I will check it out.
The articles no longer applicable. There’s a shortage of skilled blue collar labor now days that wasn’t nearly as bad in the early 2000’s as there is in 2023. So blue collar skilled labor jobs are getting higher pay when corrected for inflation than they were in the early 2000’s. Meanwhile military pay corrected for inflation has probably fallen since the early 2000’s.
I can promise you the CMSAF is not being paid what a CEO makes at a medium to large company.
They also don't do anything close to what a CEO would lol
Lol nope, but they sure act like they do.
Let's just say my local Costco is starting $24/hr with a 2.5% matching 401k and decent limited healthcare. This is more than competitive when compared to E1-E5. You miss out on BAS, but get free food and membership discounts. You miss out on BAH, but you basically get to live wherever you want. You miss out on TRICARE, but you don't have to wait 3 months for an appointment. TLDR; don't enlist and work at Costco.
The Library of Congress does a report every 4 years that details military compensation. The latest one (13th) is here https://militarypay.defense.gov/References/QRMC/ It details the goals of enlisted and officer pay.
Thanks!
You could show them the RMC as well. https://militarypay.defense.gov/calculators/rmc-calculator/
Yep, thanks.
If I am not mistaken, that same article pointed out all of the benefits (healthcare, BAH/BAS, uniform pay, etc) and it I was worth like 20k a year on the outside…I remember it well. If you go off base pay and add that stuff in, I was paid very well for my time in, plus a retirement at 40…money.
Sweet! Thanks.
Sounds like the most insane early 2000s clickbait
Yeah but….. the dental insurance
You cant even get braces FFS
I’m an E7 at 18 years and my wife make $110,000 per year. Out paychecks are roughly the same.