go ahead and do me 2 favors:
1) put that memo in your official medical records.
2) *after* its in your official records, go ahead and take that shit straight to IG.
You can ask the Shirt to put documents in your and your subordinates PIF. PIFs should contain more than negative paperwork.
Also, when the Shirt reads the MFR, leadership discussions should happen.
I've always been told putting MFR's in PIFs is bad form or straight up illegal. I've seen it used to sabotage careers because they are always negative. That said I've always pushed for Letter of Appreciation being added to them.
I’ve filed MFR’s in PIF’s, both negative and positive.
On the negative side, MFRs are a corrective tool and should be filed if they were worth issuing.
On the positive side, now that supervisors are no longer allowed to remove paperwork from PIFs, I file MFRs stating that the reason for a LOC or LOR has been corrected and I believe the paperwork should be removed. Even though I can’t get that paper removed anymore, I still want a record in there showing that the negative trend has been corrected. It paints a picture to anyone reviewing the file.
I've never been a fan of negative MFRs in PIFs, because the subject of the MFR should have an opportunity to respond to any deficiencies. I advise supervisors to use a RIC (AF Form 174) instead.
The RIC shows that the member was made aware of their deficiency, the member can respond to the RIC, and a corrective action plan was made to improve the deficiency.
Also, adding/removing documents from a PIF can (and most likely will) vary from unit to unit. I've seen units where only the CC/Shirt could add/remove documents or supervisors could do the same. That policy is usually created by the unit triad.
I can’t remember the AFI reference off the top of my head, but it changed about a year ago to reference only very specific instances when a piece of paperwork can be removed from a PIF. It was a shock to me.
36-2907
There is specific criteria to rescind documents from a PIF. One of them being "if appropriate authority determines that more or less severe action is warranted".
Basically, the DAFI defines appropriate authority as supervisors and up.
I hate that change because you know some weaker individuals are going to let older paperwork influence decisions where they shouldn't be applicable. I've seen people try to bring up an airman-tier LoR from like 10 years ago as if it's somehow pertinent to TSgt Snuffy today who is the definition of a professional.
Also MFR's can be put into PIFs without the troops knowing about it until they review their PIF. Happened to me too, wondering why I got pass over for something only to find some vague MFR in my record because E8 fuckface was too much of a non-confrontational coward to address it. And the Triad was treating a weaponized opnion piece as if it's gospel.
I get it. I was shocked to learn that the AFI served to restrict our latitudes in deciding what to remove from PIFs to such a degree.
Add to that the fact that since they’re now digital, an individual can’t “lose” the paperwork inside while hand-carrying to their next base. So it can effectively haunt you forever.
I’m on the fence about a great many things the AF does, but I pretty firmly believe they got this one dead wrong.
Yeah. The Air Force seems to me really wants the enlisted corps to be just as political, backstabby, and obsessed with perfection as the Officer Corps is. Now more shit is gonna get swept under the rug to protect airmen being set up.
It's not illegal, but I agree that it's bad form.
Everyone should know what's in their PIF. Airmen (all ranks) can ask the CSS and/or Shirt to review their PIF. I could argue that members should have access to their own PIFs (view mode only), even though I don't think their is a requirement that they do.
I would assume the shirt would have already been made aware of this if they were in a flying squadron that had to deal with flight medicine clinic. Still,getting something like this in your records is critical.
Edit: nvm this is from the CC of the flight medical clinic to its workers.
Yeah no, this isn’t legal. Medical care is a readiness issue. You can’t dictate what appointment availability is and you legally don’t have to push appointments further because command is being extra.
Hear me out...
Having a family care plan is absolutely a readiness requirement. If one of my troops has a dependent who requires specialized medical support, it definitely has an impact on their ability to execute a viable care plan. When I send that troop downrange, I need assurance from the medical community that the dependent's needs will be met, so that my troop can focus on the mission.
Thus, dependent medical care 100% affects readiness. This is literally why EFMP exists in the first place.
nah, if you follow, section 2 is entirely 'medical appointments'. 2.1 further clarifies personal and dependent medical appointments.
if they wanted non-medical appointments to be addressed they would have created a new section 3 with non-medical appointments.
Should and shall mean different things!
I once had a buddy successfully argue that an email saying “I need you to do XYZ” didn’t obligate him since it put ownership of action completion on the sender as a personal requirement. He said that if ownership of the action needed to be his, it needed to say “You need to accomplish XYZ.” It was a stupid argument about a little-fish thing, but the supervisor was an asshole and deserved it. Would I ever use that argument? I gave up my dorm lawyer degree almost a decade ago. So no.
>Just cited the reg, 36-1003 Ch 3, para 3.1.1.1 and whoever wrote this should expect a phone call from IG or their immediate supervisor shortly. The AFI they just referenced HAS NOTHING to do with medical appointments.
>
>For reference:
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>3.1.1. Annual Leave. Another name for annual leave is “ordinary” leave. Normally, members request leave, as accruing, within mission requirements and other exigencies. Member’s failure to use leave, as accruing, can result in loss of accrued leave at fiscal yearend leave balancing or upon retirement or separation from active duty.
>
>3.1.1.1. Use of Annual Leave. Members typically use annual leave:
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>3.1.1.1.1. For vacation or short periods of rest from duty.
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>3.1.1.1.2. To attend to parental family needs such as illnesses.
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>3.1.1.1.3. With a permanent change of station or after periods of arduous duty and protracted periods of deployment from the home station.
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>3.1.1.1.4. During traditional national holiday periods.
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>3.1.1.1.5. To attend to family emergencies or personal situations caused by natural disasters such as floods and hurricanes.
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>3.1.1.1.6. For attendance at spiritual events or for other religious observances.
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>3.1.1.1.7. During the pre-processing period incident to release from active duty.
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>3.1.1.1.8. As terminal leave with retirement or separation from active duty. However, members separating under PALACE CHASE or PALACE FRONT may carry any unused leave over to the Reserve Component (RC) as long as there is no break in service (refer to paragraph 3.1.1.1.9) for future use.
>
>3.1.1.1.9. Prior to the end of an active duty tour for RC personnel. However, an RC member who accumulates leave during a period of active service may carry over any leave so accumulated to the member's next period of active service, subject to the accumulation limits in 10 USC § 701, without regard to separation or release from active service if the separation or release is under honorable conditions. (T-0)
No matter what, the Maj/MSgt just mis-used a Reg to justify their overstepping their authority
this. Also, this has got to be one of the dumbest ways to kill your manning/ resigning, and completely obliterate the capability of NCO's to run their own damn shifts.
i had physical therapy for a broken foot twice a week. my flight commander made me work 12s to make up for it. I wish i had told someone before he left for another base, didn’t realize how fucked up it was until after
One small thing to consider is oftentimes non-providers are selected/appointed as the Flt/CC in flight/warrior (AD)/family med clinics. One, to get the most patient care output out of providers and, two, to give non medical corps (nursing corps, biomedical science corps) officers leadership positions as promotions are much more competitive in their respective corps.
TLDR: this could be a nurse/non-clinician, who do not commission right as O3s and have several years experience. Still garbage policy and someone needs to address this ASAP.
You’d be surprised how many direct commission O-3/O-4 are running around the clinic with less TIS than a SrA. Would not surprise me if that’s the case for this Flt/CC
This is facts.
Also, these docs get basically zero leadership training (Hell, I've had countless docs tell me they were never even taught how to wear the uniform properly). So it makes sense this FC would have no idea they should run something like this through legal before issuing as new policy. But they gonna learn today!
Man when I worked in maintenance I would have agreed with you, but now I work 10 feet from my major's desk and know almost as much about AFIs.
Also, major is basically just TIG so....
I don’t think that’s legal. This might be an actual IG situation for once. I could be wrong though, but worst case is the IG just tells you that it’s legal.
You can also check with the patient advocate, first sergeant, or chaplain.
But I guess if you have to take leave for medical appointments, convalescent leave and medical PTDY exist for a reason.
Patient Advocate can’t help with a policy for MDG Staff. Leave for a 4 hour appointment (assuming the member worked the other 4 hours, or at least half the duty day) is not legal as the AFI clearly states that the member is on duty if they have worked at least half the duty day.
Not for policy, but they’re supposed to know what rights patients have and help enforce those rights. So they should know for sure whether or not that’s legal, and also have the AFI that says so.
I’m almost positive there’s an AFI that says members can’t be required to use leave for medical appointments, I just can’t remember where. (And again, I could be wrong, but the patient advocate knows what we’re all entitled to)
I think you’re right. I remember something about medical appointments being considered a part of your duty day, but I can’t remember where I’ve seen it before.
Medical is a readiness item. You are required to be medically qualified so it’s a work item. This may not apply to elective procedures or anything not needed but in general medical appointments are work.
You’re correct there for sure. But what AFI states that and does it have language that prevents someone like this Flight CC from forcing people to take leave for it?
That I don’t know, might be one of those things that’s so obvious it’s not written clearly because it’s common sense.
There are plenty of references in 36-3003 that make it indirectly clear that medical appointments are a duty status such as 2.8.6.1 which talks about what to do if you need medical while on leave.
Things like this are calculated in your availability/non-availability time factors in manpower determination. This is a common misunderstanding that people think military have clock in/out hours like civilians. This is an IG complaint without a doubt. Refer to AFI 36-3003. Chapter 3.
I mentioned that in another comment I made. I was in IG Inspections for 3 years (from 2014-2017) in my career and I can tell you if I saw this during an inspection in a unit, I would absolutely highlight it negatively for the Squadron/Group CC to address in-house. If they fixed it, cool, not going into the report to the Wing CC. If they didn’t fix it, the Wing CC would see it and I can guarantee they’d come down on them like a ton of bricks.
I know there is verbiage somewhere that states members cannot be forced to take leave for certain things, medical appointments for themselves and dependent family members included. I just can’t remember where.
I’m in the IG sphere, it’s reflected in multiple AFIs and memos. I’ve seen this happen on numerous occasions where an Airmen has been told to take leave for medical appointments. If the medical appointment warrants leave then it is non-chargeable leave and that actually goes through the medical for approval. At minimum that units First Sergeant needs to step in to advise the unit’s leadership on the risk and inform them that is against AFI to have that memo revised.
The leave AFI specifies that leave is used to take care of sick children, so there’s definitely a difference between the AD member being sick and their dependent being sick.
It kinda specifies leave for sick children. It’s in the same paragraph the memo references, which says “typical” uses, not mandatory like this memo is making it. However, I think they can make it a mandatory thing for a sick child though, since it’s not specifically prohibited. But for the member themselves, they definitely shouldn’t and probably cannot. I wish I could find the AFI reference though.
Now, if I was that section or flight NCOIC, I would never make someone take leave for a sick kid, unless it was one of those illnesses that schools require the child stay home for 7 days or something like that. If the kid just had a stomach bug or a mild cold and had to be out of school or childcare for 2-4 days, I’d let my troop take care of their kid, with the caveat of they get back to work ASAP once the kid can go back to childcare/school.
I’ve done my best in my career to also not charge people leave for sick kids. Sometimes it gets out of hand, though, and when you tell the member they’re going to have to use leave, all of a sudden little Johnny is good enough to go to daycare. 🤷♂️
Nowhere in that paragraph in the DAFI does it say “required”, “must”, “will”, or “shall”. Your unit may make it a requirement for dependent illnesses (which is what the DAFI says, not appointments), which I can understand if it’s going to be a multiple day thing.
Agreed. But I’m pretty sure they can’t force you to take leave for a long medical appointment. If you look up the paragraph the memo that OP posted is referencing, this Flight Commander is very liberally abusing one of the sub-paragraphs.
The paragraph they reference, 3.1.1.1., it is only describing how leave is typically used, not how it will be used. I spent 3 years in IG Inspections, verbiage is critically important in following AFIs. If there are “will”, “must”, and “shall” language, you have to do it, period. If there is “may”, “can”, and “should” language, it means that it is open to interpretation and doesn’t have to be followed. At the end of the paragraph, there is an (T-0). That is an indicator of where the policy comes from and who the deciding office/person is that enforces it, created it, and is the waiver authority for it. (T-0) is outside of the USAF, either DoD or a component of some other service (USA, USN, USMC, etc) or is some other outside regulatory agency (FDA, FCC, FAA, etc).
If this came down through my unit, with my experience in IG, I would try to get it stopped at the lowest level and if they wouldn’t, I’d take it up the chain until I got to the IG. If I was still in the IG and I saw this letter during an inspection, I would absolutely highlight it negatively.
Appointments for medical reasons are considered mandatory, and are not counted against your duty day. They are a part of it.
If you have a mandatory appointment for a FTD class and it lasts all day, that's still your duty day.
* Personal Medical appointments falls in line with our expectation to be medically fit and ready so putting a time cap on that seems a bit out of reach in a single duty day.
* Time lengths are not entirely in the wheel house of the members control as any procedure/process can very day of.
* Oh you had to go to the Emergency Room... TAKE LEAVE!
* Before getting a "school/work note" from the doctor seems a bit overreaching if they are only putting it into question because members are seeking medical assistance outside of a time/tempo that leadership can tolerate. God forbid we utilize our core values of using that one thing they always mention as being first.
* This type of guidance could be played by others and abused, SSgt Snuffy takes two days worth of back to back medical appointments spanning 3.5 hours and is good to go. Yet SrA Clocky takes one appointment that ran over the 4 hour timeframe by 5 minutes and updated the leadership in the workplace forum yet gets hammered for trying to do the right thing in keeping open communication.
If these things are this stringent I can only imagine how much of a hellscape it would be to even take leave or if there is another Leave Expectations related to Personal Reasons MFR with 8-10 other bullet points outlining the procedures and guidance for a member to take the leave.
Bottom line we need to take care of our people and from being a fly on the wall of this workplace it is my observation that the mission and bean counting is the only thing in focus.
\- **I am the MISSION, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.**
Fun story: I had a vasectomy scheduled 3 months out and the Dr only did it on one particular day of the week. A week prior to the procedure, I got put on quarters, so the schedule would have been: Quarters till Tuesday->Vasectomy on Wednesday-> Quarters again Thursday and Friday. So essentially a week off and our 2LT was having none of it. Went as far as calling the dr and asking him to schedule my appointment for Friday instead…the dr won of course.
I don’t know how people fresh in the military, even as an officer, can have the audacity to tell others what to do when it comes to medical appointments.
You take someone who, generally speaking, is just barely removed from being a kid. Then tell them "your in charge of all of these folks and they have to do what you say/respect you". Then don't have anyone clarify that ultimately the Sq/CC makes the calls and he is much more likely to listen to his 1Sgt/SELs/Chief/Majors/DOs/etc with magnitudes more experience on what policies will actually have a net positive impact on the mission. Mix in a bit of non-confrontationalism that seems too common in a lot of non-ops units (just my observation having gone from OSSs/OGs to cyber world) and you have a recipe for some very big headed LTs in severe need of a talking to about what their actual role is at this point in their lives.
You have got to be kidding me. Every time I think my leadership is being dumb I see shit like this and realize I don’t have it so bad.
This reads like a reactionary knee jerk policy to combat some Amn trying to game the system.
I get it up to the “take leave if medical is more than 4 hours”. I’d tell them where to go and how to get there if they asked me to drop leave for an official appointment.
“take leave if medical is more than 4 hours”
Bitch, you work in medical and see firsthand the inefficiencies everywhere and you’re gonna pull that shit?
Air Force really be DUMB sometimes.
yeah i've had what i thought would be a 30 minute morning appointment take me almost all morning.
appointment at 0800
"seen" at 0810
doc comes to room at 0820
talk for a bit, need an xray, blood draw, and meds
activate prescription and head to xray
wait for another 20 minutes before xray
xrays take a while because the person is new (not saying it's their fault)
wait 15 minutes for blood draw
try to get meds, take another ticket, wait another 30 minutes
finally out of medical at 1045
"You were going to get me for half the day (0800 - 1200) while I went to my 12:15 physical therapy appointment in town. But now you don't get me all, fuckers. I'm taking the whole day off. Eat shit.
Sounds illegal as fuck. I get we are in the military but you shouldn’t stop/dissuade people from seeking help if they need it. We are required to stay up to date with our IMR and we should be able to do it during work.
You know there are other forms of leave that the AF has for those situations right?…. Never heard of con leave or quarters? People just like to complain nowadays.
What constitutes "personal appointments"? Does that mean elective surgeries, or does that mean any appointment your boss arbitrarily decides isn't important?
How does someone in Flight Medicine miss the memo that the med group and getting an appointment scheduled sucks
Welcome to the DHA era.
The first thing they did upon assuming control of an MTF was cancel all family days for medics.
They have dragged Air Force Medicine down to the level of the Army and wrecked everything from clinics to operating rooms. The only thing on an upswing is the bloated bureaucracy.
This is from a flight commander (young officer) not a SNCO. Seems like an SNCO needs to have a sit down with this budding leader and explain a few things.
It's the epitome of illegal.
You cannot force someone into a leave status. And if you miss a mandatory medical appointment, then that's "failure to go." Keeping someone from performing their duty is pretty much a hostage situation.
As someone who has worked in a place like this, there were those who were gone three to four times a week for appointments and those who couldn’t even make appointments cause the others were gone. There are those who abuse it.
Surely, there are a few skaters here and there who game the system. But malingering is not really as common as people tend to believe. The truth is, we never really know for sure what someone might be dealing with unless they opt to share their story.
I say this as a cancer warrior and long-time mental health patient who had tons of appointments, which were absolutely nobody's fucking business but my own.
There are 100% malingerers that take advantage of all of the leeway that the Air Force gives and ruin things for everyone else. When someone is gone for “personal appointments” all the time policies like this have to be put in place. When people stop screwing their team over, leadership will stop having their hands tied.
Medical appointments are mandatory appointments that supervisors cannot alter or prohibit.
They CANNOT ask you to take ordinary leave. That is yours by right. Unless they somehow want to organize a convalescent leave day for you, tell them no. It's your right.
Go to the ADC with this note.
Slight clarification...some medical appointments are elective and leadership can say "you gotta do it on your own time." Say I want to pay to go get a cosmetic procedure like a nose job or braces my boss could say do it on your own time.
Understand that's not what this thread is all about.
When there are shenanigans by a few knuckleheads occurring, you have to take steps to curb it. I’m not saying this is right or wrong, but you have to evaluate the whole problem. Maybe this is a solution and it was cross checked with leadership before publication. Just speculating…
Most other jobs also will not let you just not show up for 4 hours.
Most other jobs don't have the required annual physical and other trainings, though.
Scheduling appointments around patient care is a valid ask. Manning shortages is affecting everyone, and we have a duty to our patients too. My airman have 8 hours a week during duty hours that aren’t in patient care due to the doctors schedules, other than that they are actively engaged from 6:45-1600 besides lunch. Our clinic needs one tech per doctor.
The leave for 4 hours out of the clinic is excessive in my opinion and not even sure if that legal. They have to get medical appointments too and sometimes they are long. In my clinic 4 hours is the standard length.
Pretty sure requiring a service member to take regular leave to attend a personal military medical appointment violates USAF policy. Now medical leave? That's a different story.
Am I the only one that sees the irony of an AF medical clinic in charge of medical appointments putting restrictions on their own medical folks for medical appointments in other clinics? Wonder how it would go over with this flight med clinic if all their patients called wanting appointments only between certain hours and made flight med people waste time writing an excuse for the patient to take back to the their supervisor?
Required to take leave for official appointments? hahahahahahahahaha...... Gasp... Hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha.
Me: "Hey I need to make an appointment for a medical"
Boss: "It needs to be between these hours."
Me: "It's made for this appointment time, it's the only one they had..."
Boss: "I'm sorry that's not approved. You'll need to take leave, anyway."
Me: "Ok. Respectfully I'm going to use my chain of command and tell them that..."
Boss: "Wait...uh."
...
Me: "I'm back, Boss. Boss' Boss says you're covering my shift while I'm at my appointment. Thanks for that!"
This is super common In Medical groups and is another factor in why I got out of the military. Everyone: “medical is so chill it must be great”. No, I hated every day at work. I worked in the medical lab, and I had my flight cc and flight chief write up a memo saying the same thing. It didn’t stand for longer than two weeks.
Same. I'm Bio and we wind up getting roped into all the medical bullshit because we "technically" fall under DHA, even though we don't do shit with patients at all.
Rest of the base has the day off for a family day? Fuck you, your patients that you don't have apparently need you.
Bio needs new equipment since theirs is from the 1980's and finally broke, but the manufacturer for spare parts went bankrupt in the early 2000's? Fuck you, we apparently only have so much money (even though we literally have 0 issues with printing more when we need to buy an overpriced jet made by Lockheed Martin) and we need that money for a new X-Ray machine. Because patients first.
Bio needs to perform special surveillances, conduct health risk assessments, rebuild the base confined space program, ensure EPA, OSHA, and DOE compliance for the entire base while also working with EM, Fire, and Base Safety to establish contingency response plans? Fuck you, you're a medic now too! Make sure you fit MEDIC-X training into your schedule with your minimal manning!
WE AREN'T EVEN MEDICAL BRO! FUCK OFF!
This is why I'm on Reddit. Fuck this, I got less than a year left. I don't get paid enough to put up with this level of task saturation when I go over to the AMXS shop and a dude my same rank is playing fuckin' Smash Bros on his conference room TV.
Do honor guard if you flight cc will let you. I got to get away from the med group for 6 months. My days consisted of playing smash bros, ping pong, and doing ceremonies (wasn’t even everyday). Was the most fun I had in the Air Force and being a guardsman is actually dope.
I 100% get what you're saying, I've thought about applying for a DSD extensively... But ya wanna know the fucked up part?
Even though this place is miserable for me due to a variety of issues I have, both with it and my AF career as a whole, I just can't bring myself to leave behind the other Airmen to hold the bag with one less set of hands. I can't just dip out and leave them to handle all this crap alone.
The MDG "Civilian office" culture and DHA can both go fuck themselves, but just because the circus is trash, is that really the fault of the clowns?
I'm here to support as long as I'm able, since I'm still able to do so. Being yet another guy that gets pulled when we're already critically manned due to folks being deployed, pulled for special duties, etc (ACC being ACC) would only exacerbate the issues I've listed on the people left behind. "The AF will go on" doesn't really apply if I leave these guys "fully manned" according to AFPC records. If I DSD, they still see me as assigned to this base and won't bother sending in a replacement. I can't do that to them until my replacement is sent in by AFPC.
Once that happens, and I know someone can take my place, I'll happily kick open the doors on my way out and rip off my uniform, as I sprint off naked and screaming into the woods lmao
Looks like someone was abusing the system and leadership is trying to crack down on them. This is why we can’t have nice stuff. We all know that airman that had an appointment and is then MIA got half the day.
This could have been summed up in a flight meeting letting everyone know to at least attempt to schedule their appointments first or last thing during the duty day if possible as a professional courtesy to their coworkers, customers and leadership team and there are many reasons for that. The memo reads as there has probably been a widespread issue and it’s reached the upper echelons of leadership. They felt this was the response required warranted or not. That said, appointments are more often than not going to inconvenience everyone and we take what we can get so we can get seen in the next couple months. Nature of a critically undermanned field with no answers in sight.
Not trying to read between the lines but these policies are usually put into place cause of a couple bad apples…..
And yes. Most definitely this flt/cc is a non provider (nurse). They need these leadership positions for promotion.
Damn I can’t wait retire! lol
As much as I hate to say this, I’m betting this is the result of one or two shitty people who don’t care and take advantage of the system. So some poor supervisor who has to deal with their shit had to make the policies very clear and strict.
https://preview.redd.it/8jsu02ajp9nc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19920d24653c975a4422b22ce754643fae974ce6
A “Flight Commander”?! Not even a Squadron Commander. Some Flight Chief has their hands full with that one. Give me my LOC/LOR Major so I can report that ass to IG. Some people’s kids!
You think the Flt/CC wrote this? Willing to bet the flight chief MSgt wrote the memo and asked Flt/CC to sign. So I'd bet the Flt/CC, who is responsible after they signed, is the one wanting a better partner in crime.
NO this is unacceptable tell them to fuck off this is TOXIC leadership call your congressman you need to screenshot everything and report it to the IG lawyer up you need to bring down their entire career and get their family sent to jail this is ILLEGAL the way airmen are treated is inexcusable no wonder retention is so low why can't we grow beards I shouldn't have to run the PFA the Air Force is a dystopian nightmare
/s
The first statement I understood, like okay it’s the clinic and you should make sure everything is covered and try to schedule your appointments reasonable around the clinic stuff depending on manning…but then this thing went all Ozzy Osbourne and rode the crazy train. As others have said I don’t think you are allowed legally to make people do this. This is gonna blow up in someone’s face lmao
Up to 2.1.1 I thought it was reasonable. Everything after I would never do to my folks. This Maj is an idiot. We should be trying to make airmen’s lives easier. Not harder. We are already undermanned, don’t need stupid rules to make that worse.
Put this is your medical records and when you apply for VA benefits have this handy and attach all your current ailments and the name of the individual who signed this form as well as your squadron, group, and wing leadership’s names on there.
Probably a reaction to perceived malingering by one person. But this is from flight medicine, so they’d have the scoop on medical appointments, and the shirt could verify all on-base appointments are legit. So, either the appointments are legit and somebody’s going through something, or they aren’t legit and they need to bring receipts. Maybe I’m missing something.
These comments read nothing but entitlement and I have a feeling none of you would fair well in the real world. You are not entitled to get paid while you go take care of all of your personal business, including your medical appointments. If you are not at your job, you should be taking leave. Your unit shouldn’t be allowing everyone to be gone all the time to the detriment of the mission while everyone is still getting paid. What a joke. Your job also isn’t required to pay you while you’re off taking care of your children either, you have to figure it out or take leave.
It’s not “ILleGal” for your job to have you take leave when you’re not there doing your job….. grow up. I can’t wait for you all to think the military is so mean that you separate and then can’t hold a job on the civilian side where they can actually fire you.
Someone give this flight medicine doc the goddamn Tongue and Quill. Specifically the chapter on Official Memorandum. The content just makes it that much worse. Shit leadership.
I have good money that this Major is absolutely getting crushed by every flying unit commander over the generally low level of service being provided by the flight med clinic. I also guarantee they have an NCO-leadership problem where it's gotten to the point that they've had to write in policy that you can't fuck off during customer support hours because of an "appointment" \*cough\*bullshittingforanhourwiththecutenewE3inoptometryyou'retryingtobone\*cough\*
I for one applaud this draconian overlord. Now maybe it wont take 2 hours after your scheduled appointment time to actually be seen by flight med.
Imagine being pressured by another unit. Couldn’t be me, and I’m most certainly not a Major. Do people really not know how to tell people to fuck off? I’ve told many flying unit commanders to go away, why is medical so susceptible?
Think of it like this.
Depending on the base, there are probably 8-10 rated O5+ commanders including the ops group CC, each with their own angry SEL and First Sergeant whose entire flying operation is dependent on flight med being able to keep their people on status during cold and flu season. That's \~25-30 people bitching at the Wing King and Command Chief who, because flying operations are the primary reason the Air Force exists, understand the impact that one poorly running shop can have on every squadron. This "feedback" is given to the MDG CC, who then passes some orders that by the time they get to this Major are along the lines of "Fucking fix this."
In other words, it's one thing where a CC needs something unreasonable that impacts just his unit, or a subset of his unit. Fuck that guy, he should have planned better. But when you are routinely impacting an entire base in the execution of it's mission and the weekly brief to the WG CC is that units are at 60% CMR and the largest bucket of that is people that aren't med cleared because they can't get an appointment for 5 weeks where they then sit 3 hours past their appointment time for a flight doc to look in their holes and say "Yep, you can clear your ears again..."
You get some Major sending out well-intended, if problematic, policies to maximize the availability of his team which may be an opportunity at this particular shop.
Forced leave for being out of tge clinic for 4+ hours? So you're saying if you got into an accident from a drunk driver and was put in the ICU for a few days so that you don't die, you have to use leave days? That should go well
I had almost this exact email from my flight commander back in like 2018 because our whole flight started taking care of their mental health by going to weekly therapy appointments. This was after our commander had a therapist hired on for the squadron.
It did not end well for that flight commander. Also, he was just a huge dickhead so he got what was coming to him.
Just cited the reg, 36-1003 Ch 3, para [3.1.1.1](https://3.1.1.1) and whoever wrote this should expect a phone call from IG or their immediate supervisor shortly. The AFI they just referenced HAS NOTHING to do with medical appointments.
For reference:
3.1.1. Annual Leave. Another name for annual leave is “ordinary” leave. Normally, members request leave, as accruing, within mission requirements and other exigencies. Member’s failure to use leave, as accruing, can result in loss of accrued leave at fiscal yearend leave balancing or upon retirement or separation from active duty.
3.1.1.1. Use of Annual Leave. Members typically use annual leave:
3.1.1.1.1. For vacation or short periods of rest from duty.
3.1.1.1.2. To attend to parental family needs such as illnesses.
3.1.1.1.3. With a permanent change of station or after periods of arduous duty and protracted periods of deployment from the home station.
3.1.1.1.4. During traditional national holiday periods.
3.1.1.1.5. To attend to family emergencies or personal situations caused by natural disasters such as floods and hurricanes.
3.1.1.1.6. For attendance at spiritual events or for other religious observances.
3.1.1.1.7. During the pre-processing period incident to release from active duty.
3.1.1.1.8. As terminal leave with retirement or separation from active duty. However, members separating under PALACE CHASE or PALACE FRONT may carry any unused leave over to the Reserve Component (RC) as long as there is no break in service (refer to paragraph 3.1.1.1.9) for future use.
3.1.1.1.9. Prior to the end of an active duty tour for RC personnel. However, an RC member who accumulates leave during a period of active service may carry over any leave so accumulated to the member's next period of active service, subject to the accumulation limits in 10 USC § 701, without regard to separation or release from active service if the separation or release is under honorable conditions. (T-0)
Read the afi reference people….. this memo doesn’t say anything that the AFI doesn’t.
1. you will be charged leave to attend to parental family needs such as child illness.
2. you will be charged leave if you did not work more than 50% of the duty day.
It doesn’t say EVERY appointment requires leave, it says if you’re gone for more than half the day, per the AFI you must take leave. If you’re planning on it taking longer talk to leadership to make arrangements.
Telling your supervisor when you’re not going to be at work so they can plan accordingly, and not lying about why you weren’t at work are just basic courtesy and following the Air Force core values, there is nothing wrong here. Other than the fact that people lack integrity🙄
We complain about how long it takes to get into an appointment and then we complain when they try and force their members to be respectful of their patients time. Idk what the right answer looks like.
Hi, I work in the same MDG. I can write a novel on the shady and fucked up shit that goes on here. Different Squadron, but real fucky. Multiple IG complaints and CDIs done with nothing to show for it. Nothing changes. Multiple DEOCs that are atrocious and calling people out by name. Nothing ever changes.
To add: I don't know who posted this, but I do know that memo, and it is in my MDG under OMRS. I'm under HCOS. TOXICCCCC to the point of increasing mental health appointments/needs and having full blown panic attacks. It's always a game of "what kind of fuckery is going to happen today?". There's seriously so many of us in the MDG that are having serious issues, but not many will speak up because they fear retaliation and/or nothing happens.
Pretty sure it isn't legal to force folks to take leave in order to attend a medical appointment. The local IG will be interested in this case.
After looking around it seems like this MFR could be used as a form of intimidation to persuade a person think twice before seeking medical care.
go ahead and do me 2 favors: 1) put that memo in your official medical records. 2) *after* its in your official records, go ahead and take that shit straight to IG.
Dumb question from a fledgling NCO: *How* do you enter an MFR into your official records? Literally asking for myself.
You can ask the Shirt to put documents in your and your subordinates PIF. PIFs should contain more than negative paperwork. Also, when the Shirt reads the MFR, leadership discussions should happen.
I've always been told putting MFR's in PIFs is bad form or straight up illegal. I've seen it used to sabotage careers because they are always negative. That said I've always pushed for Letter of Appreciation being added to them.
I’ve filed MFR’s in PIF’s, both negative and positive. On the negative side, MFRs are a corrective tool and should be filed if they were worth issuing. On the positive side, now that supervisors are no longer allowed to remove paperwork from PIFs, I file MFRs stating that the reason for a LOC or LOR has been corrected and I believe the paperwork should be removed. Even though I can’t get that paper removed anymore, I still want a record in there showing that the negative trend has been corrected. It paints a picture to anyone reviewing the file.
I've never been a fan of negative MFRs in PIFs, because the subject of the MFR should have an opportunity to respond to any deficiencies. I advise supervisors to use a RIC (AF Form 174) instead. The RIC shows that the member was made aware of their deficiency, the member can respond to the RIC, and a corrective action plan was made to improve the deficiency. Also, adding/removing documents from a PIF can (and most likely will) vary from unit to unit. I've seen units where only the CC/Shirt could add/remove documents or supervisors could do the same. That policy is usually created by the unit triad.
I can’t remember the AFI reference off the top of my head, but it changed about a year ago to reference only very specific instances when a piece of paperwork can be removed from a PIF. It was a shock to me.
36-2907 There is specific criteria to rescind documents from a PIF. One of them being "if appropriate authority determines that more or less severe action is warranted". Basically, the DAFI defines appropriate authority as supervisors and up.
I hate that change because you know some weaker individuals are going to let older paperwork influence decisions where they shouldn't be applicable. I've seen people try to bring up an airman-tier LoR from like 10 years ago as if it's somehow pertinent to TSgt Snuffy today who is the definition of a professional. Also MFR's can be put into PIFs without the troops knowing about it until they review their PIF. Happened to me too, wondering why I got pass over for something only to find some vague MFR in my record because E8 fuckface was too much of a non-confrontational coward to address it. And the Triad was treating a weaponized opnion piece as if it's gospel.
I get it. I was shocked to learn that the AFI served to restrict our latitudes in deciding what to remove from PIFs to such a degree. Add to that the fact that since they’re now digital, an individual can’t “lose” the paperwork inside while hand-carrying to their next base. So it can effectively haunt you forever. I’m on the fence about a great many things the AF does, but I pretty firmly believe they got this one dead wrong.
Yeah. The Air Force seems to me really wants the enlisted corps to be just as political, backstabby, and obsessed with perfection as the Officer Corps is. Now more shit is gonna get swept under the rug to protect airmen being set up.
It's not illegal, but I agree that it's bad form. Everyone should know what's in their PIF. Airmen (all ranks) can ask the CSS and/or Shirt to review their PIF. I could argue that members should have access to their own PIFs (view mode only), even though I don't think their is a requirement that they do.
Awesome, thank you for the advice!
I would assume the shirt would have already been made aware of this if they were in a flying squadron that had to deal with flight medicine clinic. Still,getting something like this in your records is critical. Edit: nvm this is from the CC of the flight medical clinic to its workers.
This isn't from a flying squadron. This is from the Flight Med Clinic Commander to the workers in that clinic.
This is when the “save comment” feature of Reddit is pure gold
Download or print and store that sheet
Wow, that easy? Thank you!
If you log into the MHS Genesis patient portal you should be able to send a message to your PCM and attach any documents.
Great! I'm happy learning the process itself is pretty simple!
You think Flight Medicine personnel would think twice about seeking their own medical care?
Yes Not all, but definitely some.
Yeah no, this isn’t legal. Medical care is a readiness issue. You can’t dictate what appointment availability is and you legally don’t have to push appointments further because command is being extra.
Unfortunately, a dependent’s medical appointment isn’t “readiness.”
Hear me out... Having a family care plan is absolutely a readiness requirement. If one of my troops has a dependent who requires specialized medical support, it definitely has an impact on their ability to execute a viable care plan. When I send that troop downrange, I need assurance from the medical community that the dependent's needs will be met, so that my troop can focus on the mission. Thus, dependent medical care 100% affects readiness. This is literally why EFMP exists in the first place.
I think it was worded as in dependent appointments and "personal" appointments as in the non-medical kind. Dick move, but may not be illegal.
nah, if you follow, section 2 is entirely 'medical appointments'. 2.1 further clarifies personal and dependent medical appointments. if they wanted non-medical appointments to be addressed they would have created a new section 3 with non-medical appointments.
This guy dorm lawyers
this guy spent a year as flight chief writing and deciphering the ancient scrolls.
Should and shall mean different things! I once had a buddy successfully argue that an email saying “I need you to do XYZ” didn’t obligate him since it put ownership of action completion on the sender as a personal requirement. He said that if ownership of the action needed to be his, it needed to say “You need to accomplish XYZ.” It was a stupid argument about a little-fish thing, but the supervisor was an asshole and deserved it. Would I ever use that argument? I gave up my dorm lawyer degree almost a decade ago. So no.
> section 2 is entirely 'medical appointments'. Ah you're right good point
>Just cited the reg, 36-1003 Ch 3, para 3.1.1.1 and whoever wrote this should expect a phone call from IG or their immediate supervisor shortly. The AFI they just referenced HAS NOTHING to do with medical appointments. > >For reference: > >3.1.1. Annual Leave. Another name for annual leave is “ordinary” leave. Normally, members request leave, as accruing, within mission requirements and other exigencies. Member’s failure to use leave, as accruing, can result in loss of accrued leave at fiscal yearend leave balancing or upon retirement or separation from active duty. > >3.1.1.1. Use of Annual Leave. Members typically use annual leave: > >3.1.1.1.1. For vacation or short periods of rest from duty. > >3.1.1.1.2. To attend to parental family needs such as illnesses. > >3.1.1.1.3. With a permanent change of station or after periods of arduous duty and protracted periods of deployment from the home station. > >3.1.1.1.4. During traditional national holiday periods. > >3.1.1.1.5. To attend to family emergencies or personal situations caused by natural disasters such as floods and hurricanes. > >3.1.1.1.6. For attendance at spiritual events or for other religious observances. > >3.1.1.1.7. During the pre-processing period incident to release from active duty. > >3.1.1.1.8. As terminal leave with retirement or separation from active duty. However, members separating under PALACE CHASE or PALACE FRONT may carry any unused leave over to the Reserve Component (RC) as long as there is no break in service (refer to paragraph 3.1.1.1.9) for future use. > >3.1.1.1.9. Prior to the end of an active duty tour for RC personnel. However, an RC member who accumulates leave during a period of active service may carry over any leave so accumulated to the member's next period of active service, subject to the accumulation limits in 10 USC § 701, without regard to separation or release from active service if the separation or release is under honorable conditions. (T-0) No matter what, the Maj/MSgt just mis-used a Reg to justify their overstepping their authority
Looks like someone is upset the system is pushing back on them?
this. Also, this has got to be one of the dumbest ways to kill your manning/ resigning, and completely obliterate the capability of NCO's to run their own damn shifts.
i had physical therapy for a broken foot twice a week. my flight commander made me work 12s to make up for it. I wish i had told someone before he left for another base, didn’t realize how fucked up it was until after
You had a shit supervisor for not standing up for you
I have a feeling their leadership doesn't know this policy was put into place. This will not end well.
There's a Major's name on that MFR. That's pretty up there in "leadership".
In a medical clinic? Nah.
[удалено]
Plus it clearly says they are the flight commander, so that's sort of leadership but the lowest tier.
Yup. This is so far out of a flight commander’s justification you need the Hubble telescope to see it.
they're about to find out the actual lowest tier though
One small thing to consider is oftentimes non-providers are selected/appointed as the Flt/CC in flight/warrior (AD)/family med clinics. One, to get the most patient care output out of providers and, two, to give non medical corps (nursing corps, biomedical science corps) officers leadership positions as promotions are much more competitive in their respective corps. TLDR: this could be a nurse/non-clinician, who do not commission right as O3s and have several years experience. Still garbage policy and someone needs to address this ASAP.
yea our CC is a commissioned nurse ... Major but this wouldn't fly under her command , im surprised this policy got signed off
As a medical O-4, I concur. I’m not impressive. 😅
No kidding, I work with 4 O-6's lol
You’d be surprised how many direct commission O-3/O-4 are running around the clinic with less TIS than a SrA. Would not surprise me if that’s the case for this Flt/CC
This is facts. Also, these docs get basically zero leadership training (Hell, I've had countless docs tell me they were never even taught how to wear the uniform properly). So it makes sense this FC would have no idea they should run something like this through legal before issuing as new policy. But they gonna learn today!
Man when I worked in maintenance I would have agreed with you, but now I work 10 feet from my major's desk and know almost as much about AFIs. Also, major is basically just TIG so....
Lol
I don’t think that’s legal. This might be an actual IG situation for once. I could be wrong though, but worst case is the IG just tells you that it’s legal. You can also check with the patient advocate, first sergeant, or chaplain. But I guess if you have to take leave for medical appointments, convalescent leave and medical PTDY exist for a reason.
Patient Advocate can’t help with a policy for MDG Staff. Leave for a 4 hour appointment (assuming the member worked the other 4 hours, or at least half the duty day) is not legal as the AFI clearly states that the member is on duty if they have worked at least half the duty day.
Not for policy, but they’re supposed to know what rights patients have and help enforce those rights. So they should know for sure whether or not that’s legal, and also have the AFI that says so. I’m almost positive there’s an AFI that says members can’t be required to use leave for medical appointments, I just can’t remember where. (And again, I could be wrong, but the patient advocate knows what we’re all entitled to)
I think you’re right. I remember something about medical appointments being considered a part of your duty day, but I can’t remember where I’ve seen it before.
Medical is a readiness item. You are required to be medically qualified so it’s a work item. This may not apply to elective procedures or anything not needed but in general medical appointments are work.
You’re correct there for sure. But what AFI states that and does it have language that prevents someone like this Flight CC from forcing people to take leave for it?
That I don’t know, might be one of those things that’s so obvious it’s not written clearly because it’s common sense. There are plenty of references in 36-3003 that make it indirectly clear that medical appointments are a duty status such as 2.8.6.1 which talks about what to do if you need medical while on leave.
It would be 36-3003
Things like this are calculated in your availability/non-availability time factors in manpower determination. This is a common misunderstanding that people think military have clock in/out hours like civilians. This is an IG complaint without a doubt. Refer to AFI 36-3003. Chapter 3.
I mentioned that in another comment I made. I was in IG Inspections for 3 years (from 2014-2017) in my career and I can tell you if I saw this during an inspection in a unit, I would absolutely highlight it negatively for the Squadron/Group CC to address in-house. If they fixed it, cool, not going into the report to the Wing CC. If they didn’t fix it, the Wing CC would see it and I can guarantee they’d come down on them like a ton of bricks. I know there is verbiage somewhere that states members cannot be forced to take leave for certain things, medical appointments for themselves and dependent family members included. I just can’t remember where.
I’m in the IG sphere, it’s reflected in multiple AFIs and memos. I’ve seen this happen on numerous occasions where an Airmen has been told to take leave for medical appointments. If the medical appointment warrants leave then it is non-chargeable leave and that actually goes through the medical for approval. At minimum that units First Sergeant needs to step in to advise the unit’s leadership on the risk and inform them that is against AFI to have that memo revised.
I 100% agree with you.
The leave AFI specifies that leave is used to take care of sick children, so there’s definitely a difference between the AD member being sick and their dependent being sick.
It kinda specifies leave for sick children. It’s in the same paragraph the memo references, which says “typical” uses, not mandatory like this memo is making it. However, I think they can make it a mandatory thing for a sick child though, since it’s not specifically prohibited. But for the member themselves, they definitely shouldn’t and probably cannot. I wish I could find the AFI reference though. Now, if I was that section or flight NCOIC, I would never make someone take leave for a sick kid, unless it was one of those illnesses that schools require the child stay home for 7 days or something like that. If the kid just had a stomach bug or a mild cold and had to be out of school or childcare for 2-4 days, I’d let my troop take care of their kid, with the caveat of they get back to work ASAP once the kid can go back to childcare/school.
I’ve done my best in my career to also not charge people leave for sick kids. Sometimes it gets out of hand, though, and when you tell the member they’re going to have to use leave, all of a sudden little Johnny is good enough to go to daycare. 🤷♂️
Nope, read AFI 36-3003, 3.1.1.1.2, you can be required to take leave for dependent medical appointments.
Nowhere in that paragraph in the DAFI does it say “required”, “must”, “will”, or “shall”. Your unit may make it a requirement for dependent illnesses (which is what the DAFI says, not appointments), which I can understand if it’s going to be a multiple day thing.
That’s not what leave is in general. You would have a permissive TDY or Con Leave for an appointment not regular leave.
Agreed. But I’m pretty sure they can’t force you to take leave for a long medical appointment. If you look up the paragraph the memo that OP posted is referencing, this Flight Commander is very liberally abusing one of the sub-paragraphs. The paragraph they reference, 3.1.1.1., it is only describing how leave is typically used, not how it will be used. I spent 3 years in IG Inspections, verbiage is critically important in following AFIs. If there are “will”, “must”, and “shall” language, you have to do it, period. If there is “may”, “can”, and “should” language, it means that it is open to interpretation and doesn’t have to be followed. At the end of the paragraph, there is an (T-0). That is an indicator of where the policy comes from and who the deciding office/person is that enforces it, created it, and is the waiver authority for it. (T-0) is outside of the USAF, either DoD or a component of some other service (USA, USN, USMC, etc) or is some other outside regulatory agency (FDA, FCC, FAA, etc). If this came down through my unit, with my experience in IG, I would try to get it stopped at the lowest level and if they wouldn’t, I’d take it up the chain until I got to the IG. If I was still in the IG and I saw this letter during an inspection, I would absolutely highlight it negatively.
Appointments for medical reasons are considered mandatory, and are not counted against your duty day. They are a part of it. If you have a mandatory appointment for a FTD class and it lasts all day, that's still your duty day.
Commander: Why the hell am I getting 430 requests for convalescent leave?
* Personal Medical appointments falls in line with our expectation to be medically fit and ready so putting a time cap on that seems a bit out of reach in a single duty day. * Time lengths are not entirely in the wheel house of the members control as any procedure/process can very day of. * Oh you had to go to the Emergency Room... TAKE LEAVE! * Before getting a "school/work note" from the doctor seems a bit overreaching if they are only putting it into question because members are seeking medical assistance outside of a time/tempo that leadership can tolerate. God forbid we utilize our core values of using that one thing they always mention as being first. * This type of guidance could be played by others and abused, SSgt Snuffy takes two days worth of back to back medical appointments spanning 3.5 hours and is good to go. Yet SrA Clocky takes one appointment that ran over the 4 hour timeframe by 5 minutes and updated the leadership in the workplace forum yet gets hammered for trying to do the right thing in keeping open communication. If these things are this stringent I can only imagine how much of a hellscape it would be to even take leave or if there is another Leave Expectations related to Personal Reasons MFR with 8-10 other bullet points outlining the procedures and guidance for a member to take the leave. Bottom line we need to take care of our people and from being a fly on the wall of this workplace it is my observation that the mission and bean counting is the only thing in focus. \- **I am the MISSION, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.**
Fun story: I had a vasectomy scheduled 3 months out and the Dr only did it on one particular day of the week. A week prior to the procedure, I got put on quarters, so the schedule would have been: Quarters till Tuesday->Vasectomy on Wednesday-> Quarters again Thursday and Friday. So essentially a week off and our 2LT was having none of it. Went as far as calling the dr and asking him to schedule my appointment for Friday instead…the dr won of course.
"I'm the manager of your balls! Me!" - this fucking soy boy LT
I don’t know how people fresh in the military, even as an officer, can have the audacity to tell others what to do when it comes to medical appointments.
Dunning-Kruger effect
You take someone who, generally speaking, is just barely removed from being a kid. Then tell them "your in charge of all of these folks and they have to do what you say/respect you". Then don't have anyone clarify that ultimately the Sq/CC makes the calls and he is much more likely to listen to his 1Sgt/SELs/Chief/Majors/DOs/etc with magnitudes more experience on what policies will actually have a net positive impact on the mission. Mix in a bit of non-confrontationalism that seems too common in a lot of non-ops units (just my observation having gone from OSSs/OGs to cyber world) and you have a recipe for some very big headed LTs in severe need of a talking to about what their actual role is at this point in their lives.
Why did they put you on quarters *before* the procedure? Had to ensure the boys were rested up beforehand?
On quarters for a separate illness
You have got to be kidding me. Every time I think my leadership is being dumb I see shit like this and realize I don’t have it so bad. This reads like a reactionary knee jerk policy to combat some Amn trying to game the system. I get it up to the “take leave if medical is more than 4 hours”. I’d tell them where to go and how to get there if they asked me to drop leave for an official appointment.
“take leave if medical is more than 4 hours” Bitch, you work in medical and see firsthand the inefficiencies everywhere and you’re gonna pull that shit? Air Force really be DUMB sometimes.
yeah i've had what i thought would be a 30 minute morning appointment take me almost all morning. appointment at 0800 "seen" at 0810 doc comes to room at 0820 talk for a bit, need an xray, blood draw, and meds activate prescription and head to xray wait for another 20 minutes before xray xrays take a while because the person is new (not saying it's their fault) wait 15 minutes for blood draw try to get meds, take another ticket, wait another 30 minutes finally out of medical at 1045
"Flight Commander" 
Now watch, as I enter my leave into leaveweb with no notice to leadership whatsoever.
"You were going to get me for half the day (0800 - 1200) while I went to my 12:15 physical therapy appointment in town. But now you don't get me all, fuckers. I'm taking the whole day off. Eat shit.
This is some real civilian bullshit in place of a military work space. Got a deployment coming up and need CBRNE? 4hr appointment, gotta take leave.
Sounds illegal as fuck. I get we are in the military but you shouldn’t stop/dissuade people from seeking help if they need it. We are required to stay up to date with our IMR and we should be able to do it during work.
A medical appointment is considered on duty status. This is outright against policy. Now for GS’s…. lol
Small Arms Training? Take Leave.
lol. Just think about wisdom teeth appointments. It’s like a whole week off plus weekends. Lol
You know there are other forms of leave that the AF has for those situations right?…. Never heard of con leave or quarters? People just like to complain nowadays.
"If you are gone for more than 4 hours, you must be in leave status." Nope. EAT. SHIT.
So happy they denied my retraining into medical and I got out lmaooo
Surgeries canx, mission first
The recruiting and retention problems are such a mystery…
What constitutes "personal appointments"? Does that mean elective surgeries, or does that mean any appointment your boss arbitrarily decides isn't important? How does someone in Flight Medicine miss the memo that the med group and getting an appointment scheduled sucks
Welcome to the DHA era. The first thing they did upon assuming control of an MTF was cancel all family days for medics. They have dragged Air Force Medicine down to the level of the Army and wrecked everything from clinics to operating rooms. The only thing on an upswing is the bloated bureaucracy.
Forcing people to take leave for medical appointments is the epitome of poor management. That MSgt isn't a leader, he's a terrible manager.
This is from a flight commander (young officer) not a SNCO. Seems like an SNCO needs to have a sit down with this budding leader and explain a few things.
It's the epitome of illegal. You cannot force someone into a leave status. And if you miss a mandatory medical appointment, then that's "failure to go." Keeping someone from performing their duty is pretty much a hostage situation.
I'm almost certain this is some form of illegal. IG office needs to be called, give 'em some fresh meat.
As someone who has worked in a place like this, there were those who were gone three to four times a week for appointments and those who couldn’t even make appointments cause the others were gone. There are those who abuse it.
Surely, there are a few skaters here and there who game the system. But malingering is not really as common as people tend to believe. The truth is, we never really know for sure what someone might be dealing with unless they opt to share their story. I say this as a cancer warrior and long-time mental health patient who had tons of appointments, which were absolutely nobody's fucking business but my own.
There are 100% malingerers that take advantage of all of the leeway that the Air Force gives and ruin things for everyone else. When someone is gone for “personal appointments” all the time policies like this have to be put in place. When people stop screwing their team over, leadership will stop having their hands tied.
Medical appointments are mandatory appointments that supervisors cannot alter or prohibit. They CANNOT ask you to take ordinary leave. That is yours by right. Unless they somehow want to organize a convalescent leave day for you, tell them no. It's your right. Go to the ADC with this note.
Slight clarification...some medical appointments are elective and leadership can say "you gotta do it on your own time." Say I want to pay to go get a cosmetic procedure like a nose job or braces my boss could say do it on your own time. Understand that's not what this thread is all about.
When there are shenanigans by a few knuckleheads occurring, you have to take steps to curb it. I’m not saying this is right or wrong, but you have to evaluate the whole problem. Maybe this is a solution and it was cross checked with leadership before publication. Just speculating…
This memo’s formatting is a disgrace
and you ask, “why is retention so bad?”
Most other jobs also will not let you just not show up for 4 hours. Most other jobs don't have the required annual physical and other trainings, though.
Scheduling appointments around patient care is a valid ask. Manning shortages is affecting everyone, and we have a duty to our patients too. My airman have 8 hours a week during duty hours that aren’t in patient care due to the doctors schedules, other than that they are actively engaged from 6:45-1600 besides lunch. Our clinic needs one tech per doctor. The leave for 4 hours out of the clinic is excessive in my opinion and not even sure if that legal. They have to get medical appointments too and sometimes they are long. In my clinic 4 hours is the standard length.
The AFI already says you have to take leave if you miss more than half a day of work, so why is this excessive?
Think 2.1.3 is actually illegal for us (for medical appointments). Lmao
Pretty sure requiring a service member to take regular leave to attend a personal military medical appointment violates USAF policy. Now medical leave? That's a different story.
Is this a meme-orandum?
Am I the only one that sees the irony of an AF medical clinic in charge of medical appointments putting restrictions on their own medical folks for medical appointments in other clinics? Wonder how it would go over with this flight med clinic if all their patients called wanting appointments only between certain hours and made flight med people waste time writing an excuse for the patient to take back to the their supervisor?
Complain about the med group being closed all the time or complain about someone doing something about it. Pick one.
Oh sweet DD214, I fucking love you.
My wife was Public Health her whole career. The medical world is the most toxic place in the AF. I would even say it’s worse than SF.
Required to take leave for official appointments? hahahahahahahahaha...... Gasp... Hahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahaha. Me: "Hey I need to make an appointment for a medical" Boss: "It needs to be between these hours." Me: "It's made for this appointment time, it's the only one they had..." Boss: "I'm sorry that's not approved. You'll need to take leave, anyway." Me: "Ok. Respectfully I'm going to use my chain of command and tell them that..." Boss: "Wait...uh." ... Me: "I'm back, Boss. Boss' Boss says you're covering my shift while I'm at my appointment. Thanks for that!"
Semper Fuckyou
This is super common In Medical groups and is another factor in why I got out of the military. Everyone: “medical is so chill it must be great”. No, I hated every day at work. I worked in the medical lab, and I had my flight cc and flight chief write up a memo saying the same thing. It didn’t stand for longer than two weeks.
Same. I'm Bio and we wind up getting roped into all the medical bullshit because we "technically" fall under DHA, even though we don't do shit with patients at all. Rest of the base has the day off for a family day? Fuck you, your patients that you don't have apparently need you. Bio needs new equipment since theirs is from the 1980's and finally broke, but the manufacturer for spare parts went bankrupt in the early 2000's? Fuck you, we apparently only have so much money (even though we literally have 0 issues with printing more when we need to buy an overpriced jet made by Lockheed Martin) and we need that money for a new X-Ray machine. Because patients first. Bio needs to perform special surveillances, conduct health risk assessments, rebuild the base confined space program, ensure EPA, OSHA, and DOE compliance for the entire base while also working with EM, Fire, and Base Safety to establish contingency response plans? Fuck you, you're a medic now too! Make sure you fit MEDIC-X training into your schedule with your minimal manning! WE AREN'T EVEN MEDICAL BRO! FUCK OFF! This is why I'm on Reddit. Fuck this, I got less than a year left. I don't get paid enough to put up with this level of task saturation when I go over to the AMXS shop and a dude my same rank is playing fuckin' Smash Bros on his conference room TV.
Do honor guard if you flight cc will let you. I got to get away from the med group for 6 months. My days consisted of playing smash bros, ping pong, and doing ceremonies (wasn’t even everyday). Was the most fun I had in the Air Force and being a guardsman is actually dope.
I 100% get what you're saying, I've thought about applying for a DSD extensively... But ya wanna know the fucked up part? Even though this place is miserable for me due to a variety of issues I have, both with it and my AF career as a whole, I just can't bring myself to leave behind the other Airmen to hold the bag with one less set of hands. I can't just dip out and leave them to handle all this crap alone. The MDG "Civilian office" culture and DHA can both go fuck themselves, but just because the circus is trash, is that really the fault of the clowns? I'm here to support as long as I'm able, since I'm still able to do so. Being yet another guy that gets pulled when we're already critically manned due to folks being deployed, pulled for special duties, etc (ACC being ACC) would only exacerbate the issues I've listed on the people left behind. "The AF will go on" doesn't really apply if I leave these guys "fully manned" according to AFPC records. If I DSD, they still see me as assigned to this base and won't bother sending in a replacement. I can't do that to them until my replacement is sent in by AFPC. Once that happens, and I know someone can take my place, I'll happily kick open the doors on my way out and rip off my uniform, as I sprint off naked and screaming into the woods lmao
Sure boss. I’ll be sure to schedule my lobotomy for 0745. 👌🏼
Looks like someone was abusing the system and leadership is trying to crack down on them. This is why we can’t have nice stuff. We all know that airman that had an appointment and is then MIA got half the day.
This could have been summed up in a flight meeting letting everyone know to at least attempt to schedule their appointments first or last thing during the duty day if possible as a professional courtesy to their coworkers, customers and leadership team and there are many reasons for that. The memo reads as there has probably been a widespread issue and it’s reached the upper echelons of leadership. They felt this was the response required warranted or not. That said, appointments are more often than not going to inconvenience everyone and we take what we can get so we can get seen in the next couple months. Nature of a critically undermanned field with no answers in sight.
It's always amazing to me the lengths shitty leadership will go to be petty about something that impacts the mission so little.
Some Captain is about to get their first ass chewing. Medical appointments are authorized alternate duty locations and leave cannot be charged.
Gee golly, I don't know why Airmen won't re-enlist or even join in the first place????
I feel like that's not in keeping with the intent set forth by Congress and detailed in 36-3003
L+ Ratio Bozo
> IAW DAFI 36-3003 Oh really? Where?
So getting your family affairs in order before a deployment requires leave? Weird.
this is sort of things you tend find in stateside bases
I had a civilian tell me I had to start charging my folks leave for going to medical apts. I told him fuck off its a required readiness item.
Showing up to work every now and then also helps with readiness.
Not trying to read between the lines but these policies are usually put into place cause of a couple bad apples….. And yes. Most definitely this flt/cc is a non provider (nurse). They need these leadership positions for promotion. Damn I can’t wait retire! lol
What does them being a “non provider” have to do with anything? Providers don’t have anymore leadership training than nurses, I would argue less.
Fucking nonners gonna non
I did every single appointment on my off day.
My back-up approver would be the Wing CC on every request.
As much as I hate to say this, I’m betting this is the result of one or two shitty people who don’t care and take advantage of the system. So some poor supervisor who has to deal with their shit had to make the policies very clear and strict.
Why black out the names, fuck these people
https://preview.redd.it/8jsu02ajp9nc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=19920d24653c975a4422b22ce754643fae974ce6 A “Flight Commander”?! Not even a Squadron Commander. Some Flight Chief has their hands full with that one. Give me my LOC/LOR Major so I can report that ass to IG. Some people’s kids!
You think the Flt/CC wrote this? Willing to bet the flight chief MSgt wrote the memo and asked Flt/CC to sign. So I'd bet the Flt/CC, who is responsible after they signed, is the one wanting a better partner in crime.
NO this is unacceptable tell them to fuck off this is TOXIC leadership call your congressman you need to screenshot everything and report it to the IG lawyer up you need to bring down their entire career and get their family sent to jail this is ILLEGAL the way airmen are treated is inexcusable no wonder retention is so low why can't we grow beards I shouldn't have to run the PFA the Air Force is a dystopian nightmare /s
I really wanna see the update after this thing published to their personnel. Yeah I just wanna see someone get ass chewed.
Somebody come get your flight commander. Also, I hope this flight commander ran this through Legal or his higher up before enforcing this.
The first statement I understood, like okay it’s the clinic and you should make sure everything is covered and try to schedule your appointments reasonable around the clinic stuff depending on manning…but then this thing went all Ozzy Osbourne and rode the crazy train. As others have said I don’t think you are allowed legally to make people do this. This is gonna blow up in someone’s face lmao
A course it’s flight med. The powers at be wonder why no 4Ns want to get the F shred. I would be challenging this with IG, shirt or CC.
Up to 2.1.1 I thought it was reasonable. Everything after I would never do to my folks. This Maj is an idiot. We should be trying to make airmen’s lives easier. Not harder. We are already undermanned, don’t need stupid rules to make that worse.
Put this is your medical records and when you apply for VA benefits have this handy and attach all your current ailments and the name of the individual who signed this form as well as your squadron, group, and wing leadership’s names on there.
Probably a reaction to perceived malingering by one person. But this is from flight medicine, so they’d have the scoop on medical appointments, and the shirt could verify all on-base appointments are legit. So, either the appointments are legit and somebody’s going through something, or they aren’t legit and they need to bring receipts. Maybe I’m missing something.
I’d be dropping that off at the IG asap.
These comments read nothing but entitlement and I have a feeling none of you would fair well in the real world. You are not entitled to get paid while you go take care of all of your personal business, including your medical appointments. If you are not at your job, you should be taking leave. Your unit shouldn’t be allowing everyone to be gone all the time to the detriment of the mission while everyone is still getting paid. What a joke. Your job also isn’t required to pay you while you’re off taking care of your children either, you have to figure it out or take leave. It’s not “ILleGal” for your job to have you take leave when you’re not there doing your job….. grow up. I can’t wait for you all to think the military is so mean that you separate and then can’t hold a job on the civilian side where they can actually fire you.
“Please contact MSgt…” lol bro thinks he’s so important
Someone give this flight medicine doc the goddamn Tongue and Quill. Specifically the chapter on Official Memorandum. The content just makes it that much worse. Shit leadership.
Typical medical career field, get used and abused
Does this mean medical gets a half-day off everyday?
I have good money that this Major is absolutely getting crushed by every flying unit commander over the generally low level of service being provided by the flight med clinic. I also guarantee they have an NCO-leadership problem where it's gotten to the point that they've had to write in policy that you can't fuck off during customer support hours because of an "appointment" \*cough\*bullshittingforanhourwiththecutenewE3inoptometryyou'retryingtobone\*cough\* I for one applaud this draconian overlord. Now maybe it wont take 2 hours after your scheduled appointment time to actually be seen by flight med.
Imagine being pressured by another unit. Couldn’t be me, and I’m most certainly not a Major. Do people really not know how to tell people to fuck off? I’ve told many flying unit commanders to go away, why is medical so susceptible?
Think of it like this. Depending on the base, there are probably 8-10 rated O5+ commanders including the ops group CC, each with their own angry SEL and First Sergeant whose entire flying operation is dependent on flight med being able to keep their people on status during cold and flu season. That's \~25-30 people bitching at the Wing King and Command Chief who, because flying operations are the primary reason the Air Force exists, understand the impact that one poorly running shop can have on every squadron. This "feedback" is given to the MDG CC, who then passes some orders that by the time they get to this Major are along the lines of "Fucking fix this." In other words, it's one thing where a CC needs something unreasonable that impacts just his unit, or a subset of his unit. Fuck that guy, he should have planned better. But when you are routinely impacting an entire base in the execution of it's mission and the weekly brief to the WG CC is that units are at 60% CMR and the largest bucket of that is people that aren't med cleared because they can't get an appointment for 5 weeks where they then sit 3 hours past their appointment time for a flight doc to look in their holes and say "Yep, you can clear your ears again..." You get some Major sending out well-intended, if problematic, policies to maximize the availability of his team which may be an opportunity at this particular shop.
All those flying commanders at that space base...
Forced leave for being out of tge clinic for 4+ hours? So you're saying if you got into an accident from a drunk driver and was put in the ICU for a few days so that you don't die, you have to use leave days? That should go well
I had almost this exact email from my flight commander back in like 2018 because our whole flight started taking care of their mental health by going to weekly therapy appointments. This was after our commander had a therapist hired on for the squadron. It did not end well for that flight commander. Also, he was just a huge dickhead so he got what was coming to him.
As a 1st Sgt, this MFR cannot be legally supported. The IG would have a field day with this.
Come on space force, be better.
This is an interesting way to tell folks you don’t wanna be in charge anymore. I like it. lol
Just cited the reg, 36-1003 Ch 3, para [3.1.1.1](https://3.1.1.1) and whoever wrote this should expect a phone call from IG or their immediate supervisor shortly. The AFI they just referenced HAS NOTHING to do with medical appointments. For reference: 3.1.1. Annual Leave. Another name for annual leave is “ordinary” leave. Normally, members request leave, as accruing, within mission requirements and other exigencies. Member’s failure to use leave, as accruing, can result in loss of accrued leave at fiscal yearend leave balancing or upon retirement or separation from active duty. 3.1.1.1. Use of Annual Leave. Members typically use annual leave: 3.1.1.1.1. For vacation or short periods of rest from duty. 3.1.1.1.2. To attend to parental family needs such as illnesses. 3.1.1.1.3. With a permanent change of station or after periods of arduous duty and protracted periods of deployment from the home station. 3.1.1.1.4. During traditional national holiday periods. 3.1.1.1.5. To attend to family emergencies or personal situations caused by natural disasters such as floods and hurricanes. 3.1.1.1.6. For attendance at spiritual events or for other religious observances. 3.1.1.1.7. During the pre-processing period incident to release from active duty. 3.1.1.1.8. As terminal leave with retirement or separation from active duty. However, members separating under PALACE CHASE or PALACE FRONT may carry any unused leave over to the Reserve Component (RC) as long as there is no break in service (refer to paragraph 3.1.1.1.9) for future use. 3.1.1.1.9. Prior to the end of an active duty tour for RC personnel. However, an RC member who accumulates leave during a period of active service may carry over any leave so accumulated to the member's next period of active service, subject to the accumulation limits in 10 USC § 701, without regard to separation or release from active service if the separation or release is under honorable conditions. (T-0)
Super common for medical officers to be fired for pulling bullshit.
This is so screwed. So glad I had leadership that were always able to work with me during my frequent medical appointments that led to an MEB.
This is the most 4N shit I’ve seen
Make sure the doc doesn’t write what you were seen for in the note.
Tackling the big-ticket items... You love to see.
Semper Supra? Ya this bullshit is rampant on space bases.
There’s so much going on in this letterhead… fucking pick an office… 🤦🏽♂️
Just wait until SPAFORGEN commit cycles to start and things will really start getting real.
Not even on DHA letterhead
Dang those are some good hours. Flight Med at Laughlin was only open from 0730 to 0800 like three days a week.
Well guys, at least we get clear ear studs to wear now
This looks like something that should DEFINITELY be reported to IG. This can’t be kosher.
That’s pretty much how any PTO system works in the real world.
Who has the time to write this shit? Take it to the IG I agree with everything that’s been said up here that’s been upvoated.
Flight medicine clinics are manned worldwide at like 50 something percent last I checked….. this is going to go over well.
Don't go to the appointment, problem solved.
Y’all gotta stop blurring out the names if yu want something to be done
Bro, leave. You boss is horrible or you fucked up and he hates you. Ether way, pack up and find greener grass at another base.
Imagine this is now sent out by finance to their troops. You guys all going to change your mind?
Read the afi reference people….. this memo doesn’t say anything that the AFI doesn’t. 1. you will be charged leave to attend to parental family needs such as child illness. 2. you will be charged leave if you did not work more than 50% of the duty day. It doesn’t say EVERY appointment requires leave, it says if you’re gone for more than half the day, per the AFI you must take leave. If you’re planning on it taking longer talk to leadership to make arrangements. Telling your supervisor when you’re not going to be at work so they can plan accordingly, and not lying about why you weren’t at work are just basic courtesy and following the Air Force core values, there is nothing wrong here. Other than the fact that people lack integrity🙄
This is an Air Force Reddit sir not a space force one
We complain about how long it takes to get into an appointment and then we complain when they try and force their members to be respectful of their patients time. Idk what the right answer looks like.
Hi, I work in the same MDG. I can write a novel on the shady and fucked up shit that goes on here. Different Squadron, but real fucky. Multiple IG complaints and CDIs done with nothing to show for it. Nothing changes. Multiple DEOCs that are atrocious and calling people out by name. Nothing ever changes. To add: I don't know who posted this, but I do know that memo, and it is in my MDG under OMRS. I'm under HCOS. TOXICCCCC to the point of increasing mental health appointments/needs and having full blown panic attacks. It's always a game of "what kind of fuckery is going to happen today?". There's seriously so many of us in the MDG that are having serious issues, but not many will speak up because they fear retaliation and/or nothing happens.