Because epidemiologists have come to consensus that school doesn’t worsen overall societal spread and may actually reduce spread (due to kids having less time/motivation to get together in less-safe ways)? Dr. Scrase explained it in a press conference recently.
I have to admit, I’m skeptical of it and want to see the research. But if true, it does seem like a reasonable motivation for starting in-person schooling.
Based on my skepticism of the epidemiology, my personal preference is to have say the 10% of kids who would most benefit offered a spot back in school 5 days a week while everyone else does remote only. Just because the epidemiologists think X right now doesn’t mean that won’t change in a month or when the more-transmissible variants become a large percentage of the cases.
I just wanted to throw out there what the Governor and Dr. Scrase are saying even though I am not convinced myself. There are people out there advocating for in-person school for reasons better than “Lots of people have to go to work in person, suck it up, teachers!” Making it seem like that is the only argument being made isn’t really fair.
Because every other business that has reopened has had to reopen without a plan to have all the staff vaccinated?
I mean, the teacher's union should stand strong on getting the first vaccine before heading back in, but let's not act like this is some unique situation or abnormal.
I mean, there's levels of stupid. We kinda needed lots of people to go back to work before getting vaccinated in order to keep society from collapsing, ya know? And as time went on, we needed more because you can't stave off operations or periodic maintenance forever, right? Then so on.
It makes total sense, and I saw that as a not emergency essential-worker, but an essential worker where bad things would happen if I was off work for like 3 months. I mean, we do like having hurricane and weather forecasts and stuff, right? We can not maintain the systems that make that happen for some number of months, but past that you're just rolling the dice on when it's all going to fail and we'll be blind and not able to predict storm paths...
Except that children are actually still in school and still learning. School did not stop, we’re just doing it differently. APS was supposed to stay virtual until our county was in the green. That was the plan. Our county is no where near green, but there is a vaccine. So either we go with the original plan, or we give teachers vaccines. But to say that society is going to collapse because students are learning differently is a little much.
I didn't say anything about society collapsing if teachers didn't go back to school. Next time read for comprehension.
since you'll likely downvote or accuse of me being mean/rude:
First post: "Why would we even consider this for teachers?"
Me: "Every other profession has done this. That's why -- it's the normal thing to do. BTW, teachers should get vaccines before entry"
Response: "Well, we can agree that's dumb" <-- only possible thing they could be saying that about is \*OTHER PROFESSIONS\*, unless you assume that they meant that me saying teachers should get the vaccine is what they thought was stupid...which would be a stretch
Me: "Well, I mean lots of professions had to go back before the vaccine otherwise society wouldn't run"
You: "Why would you think society wouldn't run if teachers didn't go back. Stop exaggerating so much" <-- person whom didn't comprehend the line of discussion making non-sensical remarks and putting words in my mouth I didn't say because they didn't read for comprehension first.
I feel like the government really messed up in this one. How can we shut down everything and just let people be unemployed with 1 stimulus? Of course we can’t go back and fix that, but the whole situation is overall frustrating with no obvious solution.
Why does anyone want people taking care of their kids when they feel unsafe and don't want to be there? How does this help? Do people just not like their kids?
I don't get it.
I watched the whole thing, too, and I agree. At one point, I said to my partner that if the state had given APS a decent heads up about this, and APS had had the time to come up with a plan under a very different set of circumstances than they'd expected, we probably would be put back in classrooms soon. As it is, the state just blindsided APS and they've had zero time to prepare for this alternative scenario.
Things that were disappointing a list.
The general lack of understanding of Robert's Rules
The fact that APS tied going back to school on the green, yellow, red system when the state purposefully did not tie reopening to that dashboard. Even the CDC guidelines layout 5 strategies along with 5 levels of infection indicators which show moderate and lower risk at much higher infection rates then the states green, yellow, red.
The fact that vaccination of all teachers and staff was talked about as a guideline as going back to school. Very few groups are going to get vaccines in the 70% range before school opens next year.
This is very simple. The federal government has said it is safe to open up schools with certain guidelines and procedures, the state has said it's safe to open schools and has reviewed the plan from every district in the state on how they plan on doing it safely. As a school board member your job is can we follow the guidelines we set up. Do we have the resources to follow those guidelines. If we cant yet how do we get there. If we can when can we open.
It is not there job to layout vaccine plans or make judgements about how safe it is or even let their opinion of how safe it is influence a vote.
DC and puerto rico also have closure orders. That's about 3.8 million people--the population of wyoming, Alaska, vermont, and the dakotas combined. Also, other states don't have state-level mandates for schools to remain closed, but municipalities can still elect to remain closed of their own volition, so it's misleading to say that 46 other states have already made a plan for getting back.
Lastly, i don't think new mexico's rank in education is going to shoot upward if we force teachers back to in-person learning. What happens when some of those teachers die? Or when they quit because learning conditions are unsafe? Is that doing our education system any favors?
I agree that it's a shitty situation but there is more nuance here than your comments in this thread recognize.
>Lastly, i don't think new mexico's rank in education is going to shoot upward if we force teachers back to in-person learning.
Speaking as a teacher, the hybrid model is going to be worse all around than just staying virtual. Under hybrid, we'll have to teach to three separate groups - A day groups, B day groups, and the online group. We've been given no guidance to how we teach in person and online at the same time. If we're supposed to live stream our classes, then we're splitting our attention between monitoring in-person students for masks and other safety precautions, and trying to engage online learners. If we only meet with online students one day a week, that means we're meeting with them far less than our in-person students, and they'll fall behind.
Not to say there aren't equity issues with virtual schooling, but it's going to get even worse once we're juggling three different groups.
I agree. Hybrid seems weird / a mess. But I know other public schools went back hybrid in the state, and many private are doing a hybrid model. My nephews are doing a hybrid model at a private school in the state, and while I don't know much about it, it seems like we should have some real-world successful examples to draw from at this point, right?! Just pissed that at the meeting there didn't appear to be ANY collaboration / talking with other school districts in the state and private schools on how they were doing things, or looking at them for actual data on how it all works.
>Or when they quit because learning conditions are unsafe?
This is something NM really needs to be aware of IMO. If you drastically underpay masters levels employees, you can't also force them into a situation in which they feel unsafe and expect them to just take it, and you can't be surprised when they're hard to replace.
Yup, agreed. Get them the darn vaccine and move on with life here. As a society, we always have to balance where the limited resources (in this case vaccines) are going. It seems like setting a date 4-6 weeks out, and then making sure that the state provides the first jab \~2 weeks before that opening would let us be done and done. Frustrated with our governor over this and not just making the vaccines happen for teachers (and on the flip side those wanting to wait until 2 weeks after the second shot -- that's not supported by any data, imho).
Yeah, a few speakers during the public comment section noted that they'd polled the teachers at their school, and something like 20% would retire or resign if they were forced back to classrooms, unvaccinated, without being in the green. Even conservatively, if APS lost 10% of teachers... There's already a significant teacher shortage.
All school districts were told they would have K-5 return, then middle school, then high school in that order back in September and had been working under that assumption. The acting superintendent did a very good interview last week with 94 Rock and he said they and the entire state was blindsided by the states announcement. And add on top the decision that schools have to do hybrid to play sports by the 22nd has made it more complicated. While high school sports seems like a pretty dumb thing and reason to bring kids back to school the mental health of high school kids is terrible right now. My stepmom works at Rio Rancho high School and they've had a suicide or an attempted suicide once a week since December. Some weeks multiple. In a normal year they are pretty rare. The people who work for APS title One are absolutely terrified of the conditions kids are going to be in when they get back to school because school is the only safe place for so many of these kids. Everything about this situation is nightmare on so many different levels and there are so many things to take into account and the state is basically making all the school districts in the figure shit out on their own as they make up the rules as they go.
Exactly. We fucking failed at this. We just need to get kids back in school...and yet here we are, sitting around, scared, afraid to make any moves that might cause people to have feelings.
More than half of the APS school board is up for reelection this year.
When it comes time to vote I'll remember whether my representative was following public health advice and science or simply making politically expedient choices when deciding what education options my child gets.
~~Stream of the meeting is available [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_kZdCykKmw).~~ *edit: the stream has been removed*
Unfortunately (or fortunately), I only caught the very end just now, so I don't know much beyond the final vote. They also voted to discuss with NMPED about decoupling in-person learning and athletics, so that students can potentially participate in sports even if a district has not resumed in-person learning.
What they are seriously talking about resuming in-person sports before getting kindergarteners back in classrooms? I love sports, but seriously?
I hope they repost the video or a transcript as I'd love to see what the agruement in favor of that is.
Not APS specific, but [here](https://www.abqjournal.com/2355963/los-lunas-schools-cant-play-fall-sports.html) is an article in the Journal from yesterday regarding Los Lunas trying to do the same thing after their board voted to continue remote learning but appeal to NMPED about high school sports. A relevant bit of the article:
> “… So many of our guys don’t know what to do because they were counting on this season to show what they’ve got,” said Kiehne, who signed in December to play at UCLA. “Our state is already overlooked, and this is just them completely turning their backs on the kids and on not even giving them a chance. It’s so sad honestly.”
While there are definitely plenty of fair reasons to delay sports until in-person learning has resumed, there are also students who are banking on athletic scholarships to be able to attend college, and I can see fully remote learning (including no sports) being far more detrimental to them than to students who are relying on academic scholarships.
Note as well I'm not saying this as a "sports should/shouldn't be open", just to help show some of the arguments in favor of sports are.
I know the scholarship angle is said a lot, but tbh at least in my circle the people saying it are not at all the ones who are relying on it. The families who are understand the situation and want everyone kept safe. It feels really manipualtive, like well off people using OTHER peoples struggles for their narrative.
Kinda the same vibe as people who never ever gave a shit about poverty using it as an argument to ignore covid (but still not do anything about poverty, of course).
I totally get that at an individual level. But I guess I think we should be trying to make these types of decisions at a public health level. No matter what decision we make somebody is going to suffer unfairly, so how do we minimize the total amount of suffering across the entire population?
Similarly, I totally understand why many teachers are afraid to go back to school, much of the country, regardless of profession, is afraid. But does that mean vaccinating them before firefighters, bus drivers, and police officers will result in the best outcome overall for society?
This is definitely the case for all the families arguing to get back in the circle of my daughter's classmates (senior). A number are participants in the 'Let them play' groups and protests.
The rest of us are torn. When her school asked is to vote for what we would prefer I reluctantly chose hybrid because of her deteriorating mental health. I would prefer no in person activities until everyone is vaccinated, but she is really struggling and needs to get some social interaction with her peers. At this point she's going to spend the entirety of her senior year stuck in her bedroom.
Listening to the public forum last night, as well as what board members had to say about emails they are receiving, many families are advocating for in person learning so their children can play sports. But you are right elementary parents do want their children in school. Mostly for social interaction, not just education.
I get the reasons for many of the health orders, but some just make absolutely no fucking sense. UNM/NMSU are the only two division I schools in the country not playing/practicing in their home facilities. Oh, but the United can. Shutting down state parks to camping, which is considered one the the safest activities, makes no damn sense. .... based on science....
I agree. I've generally agreed with the governor on what she's done (she had definitely made mistakes before, but I don't expect perfection).
But since she started vying for and then got passed over for the cabinet position, it just seems random and scattershot. Like, what the hell are we actually doing here? Get some damn leadership going.
It's frustrating that her choices started out data driven and have gotten decreasingly so. To me, that's almost worse than not following data at all because you're building a level of trust with the public that you are making informed decisions and then breaching that.
If you think teachers are on “paid vacation” you’re delusional.
Edit: looks like this person took out the part where they said teachers didn’t want to go back to school because they didn’t want their paid stay at home vacations to end.
its not universal across those 48, its a speckled mishmash of semi failed attempts. with some districts able and others not. even here we have some districts that are trying.. so we dont even count in the 4..
Why in the world would schools reopen without a plan to have all the teachers & staff vaccinated?
Because epidemiologists have come to consensus that school doesn’t worsen overall societal spread and may actually reduce spread (due to kids having less time/motivation to get together in less-safe ways)? Dr. Scrase explained it in a press conference recently. I have to admit, I’m skeptical of it and want to see the research. But if true, it does seem like a reasonable motivation for starting in-person schooling.
Based on my skepticism of the epidemiology, my personal preference is to have say the 10% of kids who would most benefit offered a spot back in school 5 days a week while everyone else does remote only. Just because the epidemiologists think X right now doesn’t mean that won’t change in a month or when the more-transmissible variants become a large percentage of the cases. I just wanted to throw out there what the Governor and Dr. Scrase are saying even though I am not convinced myself. There are people out there advocating for in-person school for reasons better than “Lots of people have to go to work in person, suck it up, teachers!” Making it seem like that is the only argument being made isn’t really fair.
Because every other business that has reopened has had to reopen without a plan to have all the staff vaccinated? I mean, the teacher's union should stand strong on getting the first vaccine before heading back in, but let's not act like this is some unique situation or abnormal.
Which, I think we can agree, is super stupid.
I mean, there's levels of stupid. We kinda needed lots of people to go back to work before getting vaccinated in order to keep society from collapsing, ya know? And as time went on, we needed more because you can't stave off operations or periodic maintenance forever, right? Then so on. It makes total sense, and I saw that as a not emergency essential-worker, but an essential worker where bad things would happen if I was off work for like 3 months. I mean, we do like having hurricane and weather forecasts and stuff, right? We can not maintain the systems that make that happen for some number of months, but past that you're just rolling the dice on when it's all going to fail and we'll be blind and not able to predict storm paths...
Except that children are actually still in school and still learning. School did not stop, we’re just doing it differently. APS was supposed to stay virtual until our county was in the green. That was the plan. Our county is no where near green, but there is a vaccine. So either we go with the original plan, or we give teachers vaccines. But to say that society is going to collapse because students are learning differently is a little much.
I didn't say anything about society collapsing if teachers didn't go back to school. Next time read for comprehension. since you'll likely downvote or accuse of me being mean/rude: First post: "Why would we even consider this for teachers?" Me: "Every other profession has done this. That's why -- it's the normal thing to do. BTW, teachers should get vaccines before entry" Response: "Well, we can agree that's dumb" <-- only possible thing they could be saying that about is \*OTHER PROFESSIONS\*, unless you assume that they meant that me saying teachers should get the vaccine is what they thought was stupid...which would be a stretch Me: "Well, I mean lots of professions had to go back before the vaccine otherwise society wouldn't run" You: "Why would you think society wouldn't run if teachers didn't go back. Stop exaggerating so much" <-- person whom didn't comprehend the line of discussion making non-sensical remarks and putting words in my mouth I didn't say because they didn't read for comprehension first.
I feel like the government really messed up in this one. How can we shut down everything and just let people be unemployed with 1 stimulus? Of course we can’t go back and fix that, but the whole situation is overall frustrating with no obvious solution.
Why does anyone want people taking care of their kids when they feel unsafe and don't want to be there? How does this help? Do people just not like their kids? I don't get it.
Tonight was disappointing on a number of levels. We need younger people running for school board.
We need younger people in every single form of government big, small, federal and local. The groups that "represent" us, no longer do so.
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I watched the whole thing, too, and I agree. At one point, I said to my partner that if the state had given APS a decent heads up about this, and APS had had the time to come up with a plan under a very different set of circumstances than they'd expected, we probably would be put back in classrooms soon. As it is, the state just blindsided APS and they've had zero time to prepare for this alternative scenario.
Things that were disappointing a list. The general lack of understanding of Robert's Rules The fact that APS tied going back to school on the green, yellow, red system when the state purposefully did not tie reopening to that dashboard. Even the CDC guidelines layout 5 strategies along with 5 levels of infection indicators which show moderate and lower risk at much higher infection rates then the states green, yellow, red. The fact that vaccination of all teachers and staff was talked about as a guideline as going back to school. Very few groups are going to get vaccines in the 70% range before school opens next year. This is very simple. The federal government has said it is safe to open up schools with certain guidelines and procedures, the state has said it's safe to open schools and has reviewed the plan from every district in the state on how they plan on doing it safely. As a school board member your job is can we follow the guidelines we set up. Do we have the resources to follow those guidelines. If we cant yet how do we get there. If we can when can we open. It is not there job to layout vaccine plans or make judgements about how safe it is or even let their opinion of how safe it is influence a vote.
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DC and puerto rico also have closure orders. That's about 3.8 million people--the population of wyoming, Alaska, vermont, and the dakotas combined. Also, other states don't have state-level mandates for schools to remain closed, but municipalities can still elect to remain closed of their own volition, so it's misleading to say that 46 other states have already made a plan for getting back. Lastly, i don't think new mexico's rank in education is going to shoot upward if we force teachers back to in-person learning. What happens when some of those teachers die? Or when they quit because learning conditions are unsafe? Is that doing our education system any favors? I agree that it's a shitty situation but there is more nuance here than your comments in this thread recognize.
>Lastly, i don't think new mexico's rank in education is going to shoot upward if we force teachers back to in-person learning. Speaking as a teacher, the hybrid model is going to be worse all around than just staying virtual. Under hybrid, we'll have to teach to three separate groups - A day groups, B day groups, and the online group. We've been given no guidance to how we teach in person and online at the same time. If we're supposed to live stream our classes, then we're splitting our attention between monitoring in-person students for masks and other safety precautions, and trying to engage online learners. If we only meet with online students one day a week, that means we're meeting with them far less than our in-person students, and they'll fall behind. Not to say there aren't equity issues with virtual schooling, but it's going to get even worse once we're juggling three different groups.
As usual they are asking too much of y'all
I agree. Hybrid seems weird / a mess. But I know other public schools went back hybrid in the state, and many private are doing a hybrid model. My nephews are doing a hybrid model at a private school in the state, and while I don't know much about it, it seems like we should have some real-world successful examples to draw from at this point, right?! Just pissed that at the meeting there didn't appear to be ANY collaboration / talking with other school districts in the state and private schools on how they were doing things, or looking at them for actual data on how it all works.
>Or when they quit because learning conditions are unsafe? This is something NM really needs to be aware of IMO. If you drastically underpay masters levels employees, you can't also force them into a situation in which they feel unsafe and expect them to just take it, and you can't be surprised when they're hard to replace.
Yup, agreed. Get them the darn vaccine and move on with life here. As a society, we always have to balance where the limited resources (in this case vaccines) are going. It seems like setting a date 4-6 weeks out, and then making sure that the state provides the first jab \~2 weeks before that opening would let us be done and done. Frustrated with our governor over this and not just making the vaccines happen for teachers (and on the flip side those wanting to wait until 2 weeks after the second shot -- that's not supported by any data, imho).
Yeah, a few speakers during the public comment section noted that they'd polled the teachers at their school, and something like 20% would retire or resign if they were forced back to classrooms, unvaccinated, without being in the green. Even conservatively, if APS lost 10% of teachers... There's already a significant teacher shortage.
I agree there's a lot more nuance, but you're arguing over like 3% of the total US population. ;-)
All school districts were told they would have K-5 return, then middle school, then high school in that order back in September and had been working under that assumption. The acting superintendent did a very good interview last week with 94 Rock and he said they and the entire state was blindsided by the states announcement. And add on top the decision that schools have to do hybrid to play sports by the 22nd has made it more complicated. While high school sports seems like a pretty dumb thing and reason to bring kids back to school the mental health of high school kids is terrible right now. My stepmom works at Rio Rancho high School and they've had a suicide or an attempted suicide once a week since December. Some weeks multiple. In a normal year they are pretty rare. The people who work for APS title One are absolutely terrified of the conditions kids are going to be in when they get back to school because school is the only safe place for so many of these kids. Everything about this situation is nightmare on so many different levels and there are so many things to take into account and the state is basically making all the school districts in the figure shit out on their own as they make up the rules as they go.
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Exactly. We fucking failed at this. We just need to get kids back in school...and yet here we are, sitting around, scared, afraid to make any moves that might cause people to have feelings.
Teachers are working their asses off trying to engage students. We aren't "sitting around".
Yeah I know how hard you guys work.
More than half of the APS school board is up for reelection this year. When it comes time to vote I'll remember whether my representative was following public health advice and science or simply making politically expedient choices when deciding what education options my child gets.
~~Stream of the meeting is available [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_kZdCykKmw).~~ *edit: the stream has been removed* Unfortunately (or fortunately), I only caught the very end just now, so I don't know much beyond the final vote. They also voted to discuss with NMPED about decoupling in-person learning and athletics, so that students can potentially participate in sports even if a district has not resumed in-person learning.
What they are seriously talking about resuming in-person sports before getting kindergarteners back in classrooms? I love sports, but seriously? I hope they repost the video or a transcript as I'd love to see what the agruement in favor of that is.
Not APS specific, but [here](https://www.abqjournal.com/2355963/los-lunas-schools-cant-play-fall-sports.html) is an article in the Journal from yesterday regarding Los Lunas trying to do the same thing after their board voted to continue remote learning but appeal to NMPED about high school sports. A relevant bit of the article: > “… So many of our guys don’t know what to do because they were counting on this season to show what they’ve got,” said Kiehne, who signed in December to play at UCLA. “Our state is already overlooked, and this is just them completely turning their backs on the kids and on not even giving them a chance. It’s so sad honestly.” While there are definitely plenty of fair reasons to delay sports until in-person learning has resumed, there are also students who are banking on athletic scholarships to be able to attend college, and I can see fully remote learning (including no sports) being far more detrimental to them than to students who are relying on academic scholarships. Note as well I'm not saying this as a "sports should/shouldn't be open", just to help show some of the arguments in favor of sports are.
I know the scholarship angle is said a lot, but tbh at least in my circle the people saying it are not at all the ones who are relying on it. The families who are understand the situation and want everyone kept safe. It feels really manipualtive, like well off people using OTHER peoples struggles for their narrative. Kinda the same vibe as people who never ever gave a shit about poverty using it as an argument to ignore covid (but still not do anything about poverty, of course).
I totally get that at an individual level. But I guess I think we should be trying to make these types of decisions at a public health level. No matter what decision we make somebody is going to suffer unfairly, so how do we minimize the total amount of suffering across the entire population? Similarly, I totally understand why many teachers are afraid to go back to school, much of the country, regardless of profession, is afraid. But does that mean vaccinating them before firefighters, bus drivers, and police officers will result in the best outcome overall for society?
Because most families and students arguing for in-person learning are only wanting to do so to play sports.
This is definitely the case for all the families arguing to get back in the circle of my daughter's classmates (senior). A number are participants in the 'Let them play' groups and protests. The rest of us are torn. When her school asked is to vote for what we would prefer I reluctantly chose hybrid because of her deteriorating mental health. I would prefer no in person activities until everyone is vaccinated, but she is really struggling and needs to get some social interaction with her peers. At this point she's going to spend the entirety of her senior year stuck in her bedroom.
That's not the case in my circle of acquaintances. I mostly know parents of young children K-5 who want to see them get back to school.
Listening to the public forum last night, as well as what board members had to say about emails they are receiving, many families are advocating for in person learning so their children can play sports. But you are right elementary parents do want their children in school. Mostly for social interaction, not just education.
I get the reasons for many of the health orders, but some just make absolutely no fucking sense. UNM/NMSU are the only two division I schools in the country not playing/practicing in their home facilities. Oh, but the United can. Shutting down state parks to camping, which is considered one the the safest activities, makes no damn sense. .... based on science....
I agree. I've generally agreed with the governor on what she's done (she had definitely made mistakes before, but I don't expect perfection). But since she started vying for and then got passed over for the cabinet position, it just seems random and scattershot. Like, what the hell are we actually doing here? Get some damn leadership going.
It's frustrating that her choices started out data driven and have gotten decreasingly so. To me, that's almost worse than not following data at all because you're building a level of trust with the public that you are making informed decisions and then breaching that.
Because the people most upset about sports are wealthy white people and we bend to their demands.
The wealthy white people already moved their kids to private schools or privately tutored homeschool pods.
I'm sure many did, but not all. The "protests" about it I saw last fall were uh...very homogenous in attendees.
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If you think teachers are on “paid vacation” you’re delusional. Edit: looks like this person took out the part where they said teachers didn’t want to go back to school because they didn’t want their paid stay at home vacations to end.
I was preparing a thoughtful response... but at the end you just ask for downvotes so I obliged.
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its not universal across those 48, its a speckled mishmash of semi failed attempts. with some districts able and others not. even here we have some districts that are trying.. so we dont even count in the 4..
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Preach man. I agree with you 1000%.
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Yeah, your sister does taste good though.