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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) making my daughters wear dresses when they visit my in-laws
2) It might be hurting our relationship.
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>My MIL says it's "showing off" and my FIL always says it isn't christian.
This? Right here? Is the problem. YTA for letting your in laws treat your daughters this way.
my gigi was born in 1927. never seen her wear a dress even once. the woman also goes to church every single day and is probably qualified to be the pope
I wonder how expensive his towels and hand sanitiser are. Didn't this bunch take a vow of poverty? He out-drags a drag queen every day of the week. I bet his pajamas aren't made of cardboard or from a second hand discount store.
Actually, this Pope is unlike any other we have had. He does NOT wear the red slippers, just simple regular shoes. He also does not reside in the grand suites of the Vatican, but in a simple apartment on the premises. He’s devoted to the poor, the disenfranchised, and the forgotten. He’s an inspiration.
In general, priests don’t take a vow of poverty unless they belong to a specific order that includes it (think monks, not practicing priests). It’s one of those weird myths that have perpetuated despite not being entirely true.
The number of people who feel women wearing pants is not Christian and that Catholics aren't real Christians is probably closer to a circle than one would think.
edit: in a venn diagram, I mean
I'm gobsmacked that there are still ignoramuses who think Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity. Have these people never heard of Martin Luther and his 95 theses? Henry VIII, Catherine of Aragon, and Anne Boleyn? FFS.
My Irish Catholic grandma was born in the late 20s, the only time I can remember seeing her in a dress was at weddings. She was always cold, so she was more comfortable in pants.
I also have an Irish Catholic Nana, born 1930 and from what I can recall she's almost always worn trousers. She used to wear skirts occasionally in the 80s/90s and later for special occasions. I think everyone agrees the in-laws dated opinions have little to do with age or Christianity, it's about control
My catholic Italian Nana (b. 1934) has only been seen in dresses in pictures. She wore a kicking’ pant suit to my wedding.
Come to think of it, my Irish Grammy (1939-2016) only ever wore pants. I’ve seen pictures of her in dresses, but never in person. Even when she went to church. Or my Uncle’s wedding.
My Grandma (b. 1923) went to Mass every single morning until she was no longer allowed to drive. Nearly always in pants, as she had work/volunteering to go to right afterwards.
My MIL was born in 1931 and scandalized her Kentucky home town by not only wearing pants, but saying no to her first suitor because he didn’t believe in birth control. She eventually met the man who would become her husband and he whisked her out to California shortly after my husband was born in the early 50’s. They never looked back.
It’s not about age. It’s about misogyny. OP, if you see this, start standing up for your daughters or you will find their grandparents aren’t the only ones they cut off.
My grandma was born in 1912. Her husband died after their 13 kid. She had kids to raise and a farm to run. No time to worry about stupid stereotypes and role genders.
My mom was born in 1926. Her mother never wore pants, but my mom wore jeans in the 40s and 50s before it was cool to do so and I think I remember 3 or 4 times when she wore a skirt. I'm sure my religious grandmother didn't like my mom wearing pants all the time, and my sister and I weren't dress wearers except that we were required to in school, but I also don't remember my grandmother ever saying a word about it. OP, YTA for letting the grandparents treat your daughters this way. You are taking the easy way by forcing them, but look what they're doing to your kids already with one of them saying she wants nothing to do with them the minute she's not required to.
I *love* wearing dresses but would wear pants to visit in-laws like this, even if just to take the attention off my daughters.
We wear dresses to church. It's definitely a cultural requirement where we are. If one of my girls objected, I'd make sure she had a nice pants suit or something similarly church appropriate but not a dress.
This is the way. You sound like an excellent mother!! This is exactly what OP *SHOULD* be doing for her daughters.
Instead, OP is allowing her in-laws to bully her daughters and not sticking up for them and their needs in order to avoid conflict or awkwardness with her in-laws. She is invalidating her children's feelings of discomfort, especially if they NEVER wear dresses to the point where she had to buy ones specifically to go to the in-laws house and are upset enough over it to go no contact with the grandparents at 18. There is a larger issue here. It isn't JUST a dress to them.
OP is an adult and should be putting her in-laws in their place. They have no right to dictate what her children wear and she is showing her children that her in-laws wishes and avoiding conflict matter more to her than their discomfort. She is also teaching them that they should be expected to be ok being uncomfortable and unhappy to appease others because... *(checks notes)* they are girls... As if society is not going to tell them enough that they are expected to change themselves or reduce themselves to make others (mostly men) happy.
These are lifelong damaging messages you are sending to your daughters OP. YTA
My grandma was very religious and I hardly ever seen her in a skirt or dress. Just formal occasions and then, she sometimes she wore pants. I don’t understand the whole religious thing where women just wear skirts or dresses and the mean can dress as they please.
Oh let me explain. It's (1) to drill it into girls and women that they have no agency and (2) to prevent them from doing activities that might create competition for men later in life by becoming competent, curious and self-assured.
Right? My grandma was very religious and very (personally) skirts and dresses traditional, and one of my very vivid "going to church to appease grandma while we were visiting her" memories was her absolutely *going off on one* on a fellow (male) parishioner who *dared* tell her precious granddaughter (me) that she needed to wear a skirt to church.
Right? My aunt who was born in the 30s and was so religious I thought she was a nun when I was younger wore pants all the time
Side note. I was like 10 when I finally figured out wait she has kids and was married. She can't be a nun. She just worked at a catholic school and wore mostly black after her husband passed when I was a baby. I was not a bright child.
My grandmother was born in 1930. Practicing Jew until she died. She only wore dresses for "special occasions" when she dressed up. Otherwise, she wore pants. 🤷♀️
My very religious grandmother is 81 years old, and she wears pants all the time. She loves the yoga pants from Costco and that’s what she wears most days for around the house, going for a walk, etc. She does wear dresses to church, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen her wear one not to church or a wedding or funeral.
YTA.
I was reading this assuming they had to see the grandparents every few months or so and still thought OP was an asshole. Then I got to this part:
>it isn’t like it hurts them to wear a dress a few times a week for a few hours.
What the hell OP!?! These poor kids have to be subjected to them several times a week!?!
You’re worried they aren’t going to speak to the grandparents again after they turn 18, you should be more worried they won’t speak to you or your husband either.
A few times a week, for a few hours each, would be a significant fraction of the time they’re not in school or doing schoolwork. Especially since it would break other time up. So instead of having time for themselves, for social activities and/or extracurriculars or just to themselves, they’re being dressed up and dragged to the grandparents’ place to play pretend fundamentalist.
And OP’s husband is heartbroken that his daughters don’t like visiting his parents — how could he really expect anything else? How is he not heartbroken that his parents treat his daughters so poorly?
Yeah...assuming the minimum definition of "a few" that most people would agree on, it's a minimum of 9 hours a week (3 hours, 3 times a week). That's a significant chunk of time that they don't get to spend on extracurricular activities or other things they enjoy, because they're sitting in a uniform they hate listening to Grandma and Grandpa Asshole whinge about politics or whatever.
Yeah, I can guaranteee that Grandma and Grandpa AH spend hours saying AH things about other stuff, too, not just their grandkids' clothing. That kind of negativity and controlling narrow-mindedness gets all over everything -- it doesn't just shut off when you appease them about one thing.
Agreed! My parents lived downstairs in our two-family home for 13 years and once my daughter was older, she might see them an hour or two a week. She had homework and extra-curricular stuff that garnered her time at that point. This seems like a ridiculously excessive amount of time for teenagers to spend with their grandparents, especially in clothes they hate wearing.
I wonder if the kids are homeschooled? That’s the only way I can see how they might have this much free time to spend at their grandparents at 16 and 14.
OP, YTA for supporting your grandparents ideals, which are actually out-dated and sexist - not old fashioned.
When I think “old fashioned” I think of Emily Post style manners, saying please and thank you, setting the table before dinner and eating as a family, ironing and starching your clothes, baking from scratch, etc. You know, things that modern people often skip, but feel like a unique or satisfying experience when taking the time to do something the old fashioned way. (Manners shouldn’t be old-fashioned but I feel like they really are these days.)
Right? My grandparents lived literally around the corner from us and we saw them once a week at the most. This is downright torture at this point. Your daughters deserve better. Have the conversation with your In-laws that you should have had years ago: that your daughters are in control of THEIR bodies and THEY get to choose what they wear. If the grandparents can’t shut up about it, the kids don’t have to go anymore.
Edit: YTA
100 percent! I thought we were talking about a couple of special occasions, not several hours several days a week.
Leave your daughters at home instead. They shouldn't have to spend their time with judgemental bigots. YTA big time.
Stand up for your daughters. I certainly hope your own home isn't run on these principles.
OOh, you're the first person to mention this. Yes. I wonder how he feels? I'd be anything but quiet if my siblings were being treated like that by my grandparents. It's bad enough I've seen this type of shit with my ex-inlaws when they play favorites with my kids. (I still call them out on their terrible behavior and they are both very religious who don't believe women are valued at all - seriously it's gross)
Yes! Excellent point! We have all been so focused on the damage this is doing to the girls, but this will absolutely have an impact on the son as well. This has probably given him a sense of male entitlement already.
I wanted to quote that line too. But rather to say "It isn't going to hurt the grandparents to look at girls in pants either." Just let them complain instead of giving in.
Hard agree. OP, the first thing you should have done is sat your in laws down, told them that your daughters are not comfortable in dresses, and that if they want a relationship with the girls, they need to keep their opinions on dresses to themselves. That's all it takes.
My grandma is 85. She has some really strong views on religion, and the lack thereof in my house. I told her that if she wants to spend time with my kids, she had to stop telling them that I was wrong for how I was raising them and speaking out against the UU church we attend. My kids greatly benefit from knowing her, and she delights in their presence. But setting a boundary isn't disrespectful - it allows us to have a flourishing relationship.
This! “Mom, Dad, our girls don’t like wearing dresses. They can either visit in clothes they are comfortable in and you can keep your opinions to yourself, or they won’t be visiting at all.”
Yes! It IS hurting her children. It’s teaching them that they can be uncomfortable to make someone else happy. It’s telling them that their body preferences are not as important as what someone else wants for their body.
Mom and Dad should be the ones who protect their children no matter the circumstance. Not the one who says it’s ok to let someone else make choices for you. That’s a crap lesson and a slippery slope.
Maybe next time all 3 kids should wear dresses. See how that plays.
Edit: Wow. Oh wow. Thank you for all of the upvotes and awards. ❤️ The best thing is seeing so much support for these girls!
And it's not like this is even a few times a year, per OP this is "a few times a week for a few hours"! So this is a regular extracurricular activity these girls get dragged to and forced to wear a dress for, and OP doesn't get why the girls resent it? Bullshit you don't OP. Bullshit.
That really stuck out to me as well, these girls are in high school. At that age they are should be too busy for that. They are not only be forced to at least spend 6 hours a week on this, they’re forced to wear clothing they find uncomfortable to placate a pair of old wind bags. YTA
Exactly! How much are these girls being forced to miss out on because OP feels compelled to drag them to see these misogynists every other day, or however often? How many much more enjoyable activities have OP and her husband denied them because "we have to go see Grandma and Grandpa Asshole on those days"?
I also doubt it's just the dresses and no other antiquated ideals, religous indoctrination, and speeches multiple times a week. Op, you just don't want to listen to it, and I get that it might be easier to go along to get along. But it's in no way fair to subject your kids to this if they hate it enough that your 16yo is talking about going NC with her grandparents in 2 short years. You need to speak to your husband and your daughters, then all together so everyone has the ability to voice how they feel and see where everyone is at. Then it might be a good idea to try and talk to the inlaws again at this point and let them know that the grandkids only have a few short years to be alienated before you can no longer force them to see them so it may be time to try to change or prepare for that NC eventuality.
Same here. I very highly doubt that they're actually lovely people otherwise, OP just isn't versed enough in the dogwhistles to recognize them for what they are (or is, but is choosing to pretend it's OK because they aren't using out and out slurs).
Yep. My grandpa used to hit me so hard on the back when he greeted me that I’d yell at him. My parents never stood up for me and instead made fun of me for years for it along with my whole extended family. And my parents still wonder why it took me eleven years to tell them I was raped in high school? Lol not just for this specific reason but the overall lesson of being told my body doesn’t belong to me and mens egos are way more important than my pain
OP, one set of my grandparents was just like your ILs and I have had virtually no relationship with them for my adult life.
I can’t think of a single memory of feeling relaxed or happy with them. There was always something they were picking at or criticizing. On the rare occasions I did see them as an adult, they criticized how little I visited the entire time, which in turn made me want to see them even less.
I also had a lot of resentment toward the parent who never stood up for me with them and subjected me to all of their criticism. Every visit felt like being an emotional punching bag for a couple hours and I couldn’t wait to escape. My sister feels the same way.
YTA and you need to do right by your kids. Sit down and have a conversation about what they want their relationship with their grandparents to be. I’m not saying never see them, but you may need to cut back, or your partner may need to have a difficult conversation with your ILs, or you and your daughters may need to find a compromise (like leggings under dresses) and you shut down any discussion of their clothes during visits.
Some food for thought: I know there are some people who just really hate wearing dresses that much. But if your kids actually enjoyed spending time with your ILs outside of the dress thing, I don’t think this would be such an issue. I’d encourage you to really think about what your visits like them are like from the kids’ perspective and if the dresses are actually the true problem or a symptom of a different problem.
💯💯💯 Yes! My guess is the dresses are the scapegoat for other things the girls are feeling uncomfortable about because they can’t say what’s really bothering them. If that’s the case, OP and her husband need to look really hard at themselves if the girls can’t tell them the truth about what the dresses actually represent. It could be as simple that they really want to spend “a few times a week for several hours” with their friends or doing sports, instead of visiting the grandparents. This seems like an excessive and unhealthy amount of time to spend with people that is taking away time they should be spending with kids their own age.
Reading the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs I was thinking "these kids are gonna go NC at the first opportunity", and then there it is in the 4th lol.
>The issue is our oldest is planning to never speak to her grandparents again after she's 18, and I'm worried it's affecting them
Good. These controlling, bigoted grandparents deserve no less. YTA for regularly making your own children uncomfortable to pander to them.
Wait, did I read that right? Oldest is already planning on going NC as soon as she has the legal right to decide that for herself…and op is worried about the effect that’s having on the sexist fundie *grandparents?*
Good lord. YTA, op, in so many ways.
I’m puzzled at why she has to wait till she’s 18. I decided I no longer wanted to see my grandmother at 13 and never did. Not even attending her funeral.
I mean...op's here asking if she's t.a. for not letting her teens *dress themselves* to visit the grandparents. I imagine allowing them to decide whether or not to visit in the first place has never occurred to her.
Ime, people who see this kind of blatantly sexist and fundamentalist religious behavior and call it "traditional"...don't always have the healthiest nor most realistic understanding of personal autonomy and boundaries.
That really makes me think it isn’t even just about the clothes. The grandparents have definitely been saying or doing other things to those girls that OP either didn’t directly witness or simply ignores.
New flash: Christ didn’t wear pants, either. So, if you’re traditional, it’s not masculine OR Christian to wear pants.
This is about controlling women’s bodies and removing their bodily autonomy. If it was three times a year, I might see it as an acceptable concession. Every week, for hours? YTA, big time. You are telling your daughters that other people can dictate about their bodies. It’s a terrible lesson to impart.
Yeah. How hard is it to say "That is a really shitty thing to think about your grandchildren. And it's just not how the world operates. Keep your mouths shut about what they're wearing, or the visits will stop"?
Like yes, emotionally it will be a bit of a hurdle for someone who's used to letting these people walk over them, but at the end of the day your kids should know you're on their side and in their corner.
OP and her husband need to find their spines.
Adding, their grandparents probably thought they were hussies for showing ankle, and looked rough and common for not not having some form of corset around the waist.
My great grandmother used to lace her mother's corsets for her in the morning. That's how much fashion has changed. And in the 40s women often wore pants. My Nanna would be wearing pants making ammunition during the war. Katherine Hepburn would be in black and white movies wearing pants. By the 50s they were standard attire for women. That is 70 years ago! If they are in their 80s they were choosing their own fashion standards in an era when women wearing pants was normalised.
Just to add that it has nothing to do with fashion for the culture. They have decided something is or isn't acceptable likely contrary to the culture they grew up in. And now their grandkids are being forced to change their clothes to accommodate their opinions. That's controlling
Great they like women in dresses, then they can wear dresses. But they are dictating something that isn't part of the culture, to their own standards and everyone is accommodating because they don't want to upset them. Why?
Is grandma going to make a fuss? Plenty of traditional values would think a woman shouldnt be so mouthy. is grandad going to make a fuss, plenty of 'traditional' values would say he is 'a bit funny' for caring so much about women's clothing. Or do they just get to pick what traditional values to comply with and everyone else has to make do?
Keeping the peace may be the cost you like to pay, but you have almost adult children saying 'hey, that cost/benefit equation does stack up for me.' I would think raising women OP want them to be in a position where they have the bodily autonomy and confidence to be able to say no to people making demands on how they live their life. Or they are raising daughters who are more likely to change their lives around a controlling partner. Don't normalise women living smaller lives to make others feel more comfortable, there is enough of that already and it leads to heartbreak.
And to add to that history of women: couldn't get a mortgage without a male relative signing off until the 70s, couldn't legally drink at the bar until the 80s in the UK. Traditional values are far too often handcuffs on women's wrists, put there on men, and then socially reinforced by women because it's 'virtuous'.
YTA. I know it seems like it’s just easier to get them to wear a dress but it’s sending them the message that their feelings and comfort aren’t as important as other peoples. Their grandparents should love them for them, not if they wear what they consider appropriate clothing. It’s not 1950 anymore. G-parents need to accept things are different and you need to support your kids.
Also, it's not like we're talking visits twice a year at Christmas and Easter or something like that... OP said "a few times a week"! That's kind of a lot to deal with, actually.
And I'm not surprised they don't want to visit anymore, they've now come to associate visiting those grandparents with being forced to be uncomfortable. They're old enough now to start making their own decisions about this.
And your husband is perfectly capable of saying, "Well mom and dad, I know you love seeing the girls but to be honest they're tired of being criticized for wearing pants, so as long as that continues they've decided they don't want to visit anymore."
Right, like twice a year, Not that it’s right or wrong but my family would turn it into a running joke and it’d be a funny albeit borderline traumatic memory but we’d talk smack how crazy our grandparents were… Multiple times a week like they’re regularly in each other’s lives is a no-go and ridiculous.
> Also, it's not like we're talking visits twice a year at Christmas and Easter or something like that... OP said "a few times a week"! That's kind of a lot to deal with, actually.
Yeah, this felt pretty reasonable up until that. "Every once in a while you might have to do something uncomfortable to make someone you care about happy, even if the thing they're happy about feels stupid to you - we do this because we care about our loved ones" is a fine lesson to learn. "You need to put up with other people's irrationality on a regular basis because we said so" is a much worse lesson.
Sorry, I don’t think this is reasonable at all. Those girls never wear skirts, yet they are forced to whenever they visit the grandparents.
Even if it only were several times a year, how is it reasonable to do that? Their brother surely doesn’t have to accommodate to this nonsense, so the girls are essentially taught that they are inferior and have to accept feeling physically uncomfortable just because they lack a penis.
I get it’s important sometimes to do stuff you don’t want to, but having to wear skirts just to avoid conflict with people who are clearly in the wrong isn’t one of that.
Also, as someone who was forced to wear skirts and dresses as a preteen, it will turn them off of skirts and dresses. I didn’t wear one for years because my grandmother made me wear one every day, even in the dead of winter. One day I begged to wear jeans and she said no, wear your wool skirt. My wool skirt was knee length and itchy. She also made me wear thin tights.
But the same logic applies to the grandparents. They can suck it up and be uncomfortable seeing the girls in pants (the horror /s) because they love their grandchildren. Dont they?
Yeah, that blew me away.
I disagree totally with doing this, but doing it 2-3 times a year is completely different than doing it multiple times per week!
I'm going to guess if OP and Hubby had laid it out from the start that this wouldn't be tolerated, the grandparents would be well over it by now. Now its going to be a much bigger thing than it would have been if they'd just responded with "the girls are allowed to wear whatever makes them comfortable, and if you continue to complain we just won't be bringing them any more" when this first became an issue.
>The issue is our oldest is planning to never speak to her grandparents again after she's 18, and I'm worried it's affecting them.
OP, I'd be worried about how its going to affect your relationship with them more if I was you. One day they're going to work out that while GPs were the ones complaining, it was you and your husband who actually forced them to do this...
I’d wonder though if hubby would have been so conditioned to appease his parents that when he had his own children that the boundary never got set. Thin end of the wedge has ended up here on a precipice with his oldest daughter wanting to go NC the first chance she gets. OP, I don’t know if you tried arguing for your kids’ body autonomy when they were young, or didn’t even know what type of parents you and hubby wanted to be (me and my partner muddled through it with plenty of disagreements at the beginning), but it’s time to put your foot down and stand up for your kids. As others have said, your daughters deserve bodily autonomy and their own boundaries to be respected. And your son surely does not need to start believing that it is okay to treat people like this either.
OP right now YTA. But you might have a chance to turn that around if you stand up for your kids decisively.
Exactly. There's a difference between "please don't wear jeans at your cousin's wedding" and "we are going to let closed-minded misogynists dictate what you should wear on an almost daily basis because *their* values are more important than *YOUR* autonomy." What some people seem to be missing is that this isn't about a dress code, it's about some pretty antiquated gender issues and there are a lot of additional messages in that.
OP, if you think your kids are only being alienated by their grandparents you're kidding yourself. You've sent a very clear message that any gender equality they feel at school/ around friends away from the in-laws is ultimately meaningless because when it comes down to it, multiple times a week, every single week, ***it can be revoked*** at the whim of anyone else whose values and opinions you prioritize more. You're prioritizing people who believe that your daughters are only as important as their ability to submissively please other people with their femininity and appearance.
If that sounds like a gross exaggeration that can't be true ("no, grandma and grandpa care about them more than that!") then surely gma and gpa would eventually be able to accept them in pants, no?
If not, then you already have your answer. What you need to realize is that either way, this is *already* the answer your kids see ***you*** enabling on a near-daily basis. You are not on the sidelines here OP. Your in-laws may be old fashioned, but you're the one teaching your kids that seeking your in-laws' approval is much more important to you than advocating for your kids. ("Now remember, kids, it's more important to hide who you are in order to please everyone else, even if they're trying to control your body, appearance, femininity, and making you ***deeply*** uncomfortable.")
*(Slow clap...)*
Ask yourself if you would want them to date a guy who also supports this message. Letting them wear jeans at home doesn't matter if you're still teaching them that their autonomy only exists when it isn't contested by anyone else who wants to look at them.
And since the grandparents are using Christianity to back their views, let's talk about how back in Biblical days, neither women \*nor\* men wore pants.
Yeah I tried to do the math on this and I feel like we’re past the point where the ‘they’re just old!’ argument works.
Even if the grandparents are 90 years old, they would have been in their teens/twenties during the 50s and would’ve definitely seen women wearing pants early on. You’d think they would have gotten over it, seeing as it’s been normalized for the majority of their lives
Trousers were common in the 20s and 30s for women, particularly in the form of what's vasically pant suits. Pre WW1 it was more frowned upon though, so they're only 110 years out of date.
Exactly! My grandma is 95 this year (b. 1928) and she is an italian catholic, raised in a poor household of farmers.
She still wears pants everyday and asks my best friend (F) about her girlfriend every week. Sends them presents for christmas and birthday and invited them to her house multiple times.
My younger brother lives with his girlfriend without being married. No problem on that too, she actually took his girlfriend in as another granddaughter 😆
Because she's intelligent.
I feel the same way when the AITA are about “my parents/uncle/aunt are old fashioned” and they’re Gen X. I GREW UP IN THE ERA OF FRANKIE GOES TO HOLLYWOOD AND TWISTED SISTER AND BOY FUCKING GEORGE BEING MAINSTREAM ARTISTS it wasn’t the fucking 1880s.
You are on the wrong side of history here, without question.
YTA
My grandmother used to fight with my dad about me not wearing dresses to church. God I hated dresses.
My grandmother was born before 1900, she had some *very* outdated ideas. And my dad was not exactly a hero dad in many ways, but in this aspect he stood up for me, hard. Against his own mother who he loved and admired very much.
But on this he would not allow her to try to teach me that I had to follow these ridiculous expectations. I overheard it once, and it stayed with me for life. It mattered in many ways. It is *really important* to stand up for your girls on this.
I don't think you understand how significant it is that you're failing to do it.
>My grandmother was born before 1900
Which is the only time a person can be born where having those attitudes is remotely excusable.
Every woman relative of mine that I’ve met in my lifetime, including the ones that were born when the Titanic was the latest thing, has worn pants.
Just deleting the comment that was here because what I meant is different than how it's being read, and it's producing some off-piste comments about church-related patriarchies that don't actually fit with the thing I was describing.
YTA. You’re teaching them their comfort doesn’t matter and it’s their responsibility to cater to how other people think they should dress and act. It’s misogynistic and gross. Stop it.
I was trying to figure out why it bothered me so much when i too, was thinking, it’s just a dress? But this is what i couldn’t formulate into words. YTA op i would never want my kids to feel that way.
YTA, and being forced into skirts/dresses against their will may well be part of why your daughters hate visiting. If you let them wear shorts or pants, your in-laws would have to learn to accept what they cannot change, or learn to live without their granddaughters when they alienated them enough that they refuse to come.
The fact that some cultures don’t accept women’s rights is a terrible excuse for imposing on your daughters. Plenty of cultures are accepting of parents beating their children, would you use that as an excuse to occasionally hit your children?
Right? Arguing that women in many cultures don’t have the *right* to wear pants isn’t the argument you think it is.
YTA- I’m glad your daughters are strong enough to see through your misogyny and stand up for themselves. Sad their own mother won’t but at least they’re likely to have each others backs.
Right?! "Other women around the world don't have the right to wear pants, so why should my daughters have that right?" is a shitty argument.
Not to mention I think being forced to wear dresses is the *main* reason OP's daughter's hate visiting. If there aren't others. It's clear the grandparents care more about what their grandchildren wear than about their actual grandchildren and considering OP's daughters are teens now I think they can definitely tell that by now.
Grandparent's narrow minded view of the world is going to lose them their grandkids and if OP doesn't start defending them they might lose their daughters. YTA
Wel I hope OP doesn’t vote, be financially independent, have a job, had a full education or drive because in other cultures women don’t have the right to do those thing.
But on a more serious note, what ever in the F? Women started wearing trousers in the 1890s, and they really got popular starting in the 40s, that’s 80 years of women wearing trousers.
And they make the kids do this A FEW TIMES A WEEK.
This isn't "wear a dress for granny's birthday because she's gonna be dead soon and it's her special day" .... They are exposing their kids to these narrow minded grandparents and forcing them to follow their misogynistic dress code several times a week.
The way they aren't allowed control of their own bodies because of the disapproval of their grandparents tells you everything you need to know about the messages they are getting several times a week.
HARD YTA. Your daughters will learn body autonomy from you, one way or another. They will either learn that their clothing is to be chosen for the whims and approval of others, or that they have the freedom to express their individual desires and preferences. It is very telling that it's the *girls* whose clothing is being dictated, and not their brother. Think about that, take all the time you need.
As their parent, your *only* responsibility here is to support your daughters, and stand up for them against their grandparents.
EDIT: Thank you for the award 😊
And not only the clothing. Forcing them to go several times a week for hours. If it is one time a week or biweekly, okay. But this is to much. Says somebody who grew up with grandparents very close (placewise and emotionally). If they want to go fine, but forcing 🤮
YTA. You are telling your daughters that they have tk conform to outdated sexist stereotypes to appease these relatives. What are you going to do when they say women shouldn’t have opinions about politics and let their husbands decide for them who to vote for?
These little battles may seem small, but the underlying message they send is HUGE.
YTA:
>I guess it is, but in a lot of cultures women only wear skirts and dresses so I don't think it's a big deal.
That's true. But they didn't grow up in that culture. You're forcing them to pretend to be something other than who they are for people who are supposed to love them for who they are.
I don't blame your oldest for wanting to go no contact with her grandparents but you'd better be careful with how far you push this because if you're not, she'll go no-contact with you too.
EDIT:
>Here's the issue, they don't like the idea of women wearing pants. My MIL says it's "showing off" and my FIL always says it isn't christian.
Question: Aren't dresses showing off more by revealing their legs?
Honestly I don't even care if they're from that culture.
Cultures can be sexist too.
It used to be culture that women couldn't be raped within marriage. Is that okay if you grew up in it?
Do we then say that women from cultures which force them to stay at home or not have the same freedoms as men can just live that way then? Like nah, thats your culture so deal with it?
There are cultures today that are fighting for the "right to preserve cultural traditions". Those traditions include forcefully holding down terrified little girls and cutting off the vast majority of their external genitalia before sewing the ragged, bleeding, raw edges of what *used to be* their labia majora together. They leave a hole about the size of a number 2 pencil for urine and menstrual discharge to escape.
Don't use time honored traditions, or culture, or religion, or any other damned thing to force your daughters to fit into a box that they have no interest in fitting. As an example of doing this, your decision didn't have such a drastic and cruel outcome, but the logic used to force your daughters hand is a slippery fucking slope. That logic has taken us into some of the darkest corners of the human heart. It's got to stop sometime.
YTA
My grandparents were like your in-laws, and my parents were like you. I cut off my relationship with my grandparents after I graduated from high school, and I went low contact with my parents for years thereafter. I expect that your daughters will do the same.
If you want to destroy your relationship with your daughters, keep doing what you’re doing.
My granny was a sexist, xenophobic racist. Kids should be "seen and not heard" type.
I disowned her in childhood. Never went to her funeral when she died when I was an adult. Despite mums pleas.
OP... The daughters will cut their grandparents off. And I'm WITH THEM 100% on it. Next... They'll cut you off if you keep apologising for their actions and downplaying their severity, and ignoring their boundaries about dress wearing.
First I cut off my granny... Then through the years... My mother and I are now Low Contact. One reason due to she kept apologising for her mother's ways with "she was from a different generation" nonsense I cannot abide. That lie. Being 70 means they've had decades more time on this earth to grow learn and adapt. But they CHOOSE not to. Choose harm. And fuck that...
Your daughter's grandparents are choosing to harm them with their actions. So are you. You are choosing to harm your daughters. You are putting your son over your daughters. You are putting your in law's over your daughters. You and your in-laws have placed your daughters bottom of the barrel in this family.
How can you NOT SEE this is gonna cause a fuckton of problems?
The dress situation is abusive behaviour from the grandparents AND their parents.
My goodness, grow up, get your big adult pants on and do better. Fast.
YTA.
YTA… you’re not listening to your kids. You’re making them wear a dress for other people beliefs and comfort. They expressed they hate wearing dresses and you still make them. Your eldest daughter is already saying she’s not going to speak with them when she’s 18 for this reason and you’re still dismissing their feelings towards it…
If OP continues down this path, the grandparents won't be the only ones the daughters stop talking to. I can't say I'd blame them. If the parents refuse to listen, why would the kids waste their breath or time?
"Traditional" is a euphemism for "bigoted."
I guarantee you they are racist.
Stop teaching your girls that they have to deny who they are and pacify bigots.
YTA
"They aren't outwardly bigoted", followed by a whole post of OP indirectly acknowledging, excusing, and sacrificing her children to her in-laws' blatant misogyny. She can't see the forest for the trees.
YTA
Not only will your kids cut off contact with the grandfolk when they’re old enough, they’ll cut off contact with you too.
You’ll have no one to blame but yourself
YTA
I see your logic about how women in other cultures have to dress a certain way. But there are a few key points here:
1. Women in other cultures also don’t like being told what to wear.
2. In THIS culture, most people no longer approve of telling women what to wear.
3. These grandparents sound like ungracious and insufferable people regardless of whether their preferences in female clothing are adhered to, so why are we trying so hard to appease them?
I’m almost tempted to suggest the girls go the malicious compliance route and show up at their grandparents in full Edwardian dress. With the giant bustle and everything.
Fun fact: apparently men of that time absolutely *hated* those large bustles and hoop skirts because they basically forced men to keep a more respectful distance. Hard to grope a woman without her consent if she’s got a basketful of extra fabric in the way.
YTA for forcing your kids to placate closed minded bigots.
Bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
YTA- “they’re not racist that I know of” (they likely are, I would bet money on it)
But you brush over their sexism as though it’s no big deal.
They’ve done this to themselves and you being an extension of their sexist patriarchal bs will cause your kids to resent you too.
You suck at parenting.
"They're both quite tomboyish"
Are you calling your daughters for wearing clothes that they like and that doesn't fit with your ignorant way of thinking? What kind of horrible mother are you?
IT'S CLOTHES. IT'S CLOTHES
You are the one who is making drama and forcing your daughters to wear dresses.
As the daughter of a mother as bad as you, I tell you, when they grow up, they will buy everything except dresses, because "mother made us wear dresses and now I hate them"
My mother did the same thing, and for YEARS I couldn't enjoy wearing a dress or skirt because she made me do it.
YTA!!!
YTA but so is everyone else (except your daughters.) You shouldn’t force your kids to be exposed to standards that dictate what they are allowed to present as because of their gender. They are both old enough to make the decision not to go and just stay home.
YTA. Your in-laws are AHs. But here's the thing. As a parent it's your job to advocate for your children and to teach them how to advocate for themselves. In addition to teaching them terrible things about gender and purity culture, and complementarianism no doubt, you're teaching them to submit to people who treat them badly just to keep the peace.
Your in-laws are responsible for developing their relationships with their grandchildren. They chose self-righteous authoritarianism and are alienating their granddaughters. You can't make any of this better. What you should do is what's best for your children, not what's easiest for you.
It was the 60s when they burned bras. I graduated high school in the 70s. We wore pants when I was kid in the 60s. OP is just making excuses for her in-laws lousy behavior.
Yta
>Our daughters hate this, and think it's unfair. I guess it is, but in a lot of cultures women only wear skirts and dresses so I don't think it's a big deal.
And they're also sexist. Cultures can be sexist and racist and a whole host of things
It used to be American culture that black people had to sit at the back of the bus. Was it okay then?
It used to be culture everywhere that rape within marriage didn't exist. Was that okay and not a big deal?
Just because something is culturally accepted doesn't make it okay
If this was a one time thing that's one thing. But a repeated occasion that happens multiple times a month? I'd call bs too.
And honestly I wouldn't blame your daughters if they never speak to your grandparents again
"Traditional" is NOT what I'd call your in-laws.
Sexist bigots with a real need to mind their own eye-beams is more in the right ballpark.
Some cultures support all kinds of bad things. What a crummy excuse for your lack of bravery.
YTA and so is your hubby.
YTA. You’re forcing your daughters into an uncomfortable mold to please grown adults who do not accept or love them as they are. Your in-laws sound awful and instead of having their crusty outdated bs challenged, they’ve been coddled at the expense of your children. Of course they will end the relationship as soon as they have the autonomy to do so.
yta
how about you stand up for your children for once. geez, the assholeness is real. you are literally forcing your children to do something they hate and then are surprised if they dont want to have anything to do with their grandparents and cut contact as soon as they can.
stand up for your children, tell your inlaws they have to accept them just as they are and not give them any grief over it. they can dress however they want, they are literally not hurting anyone, you and your inlaws on the other hand, are.
they want to cut contact with their grandparents, dont be surprised if you re next if you keep this up.
YTA
I promise you, as a woman who grew up in the south amongst these "traditional" people, they are ALL bigoted. Maybe you don't see it, but I promise you, if they feel that way about girls wearing dresses, they also don't approve of LGBTQIA+ folks or the rights of women to their own bodies. I don't blame your daughters for hating going there, and I don't blame them for wanting to go NC when they can. Stop forcing your children to adhere to a dress code from 1965
OMFG!!! YTA a hundred times over. You're subjecting your girls to this abusive treatment multiple times a week?!? And you're only wondering if you might be an AH?!?
You're teaching them time after time after time that they have less value than boys and less autonomy over their bodies than boys. I hope you aren't counting on having meaningful relationships with them after they turn 18. Facilitating years of abuse is likely to make them want to avoid you, too, not just your in-laws.
YTA. A lot of cultures discriminate against women - that doesn't make it "not a big deal." That's disgusting logic. Please don't teach your children that discrimination is okay because it happens in lots of places.
And this, this is not an excuse: "They seem to think the world should have stopped 50 years ago"
I don't know where you are from of course, but at least in the US, we were far past that 50 years ago. I'm close to 60 and still remember my favorite pants from kindergarten - my brown stretchy pants with the sewn in seam down the front. Heck, my mom is in her 80's and she was wearing pants as a teenager. Pedal pushers were a fad in the 1950s, seventy years ago.
YTA. Requiring females to wear dresses is extremely sexist. And I know lots of Christians who wear pants. So I don’t know if that is a Christian thing or not. But your daughters are old enough to pick what they wear.
Let your kids be who they are. Why are your daughters responsible for conforming just to avoid conflict? This request is not reasonable. Your kids should dress in a way that makes them feel comfortable & your husband should manage his parents.
YTA
YTA.
Stop forcing your children into uncomfortable situations. It’s not hurting anyone for them not to wear a dress. Stand up for your kids and tell your grandparents the affect this ridiculous rule is having on their future relationship with their grandchildren. Be a parent and ADVOCATE FOR YOUR CHILDREN.
YTA.
>it isn't like it hurts them to wear a dress a few times a week for a few hours.
It does. It shows they have no control over their body and that it's more important to appease old sexist people than for them to have a voice. Not once a year. Not once a month. But for several hours a week. Because *you* want things easier *for you* and you don't mind dresses.
>The issue is our oldest is planning to never speak to her grandparents again after she's 18, and I'm worried it's affecting them.
Geez, do you think? Don't worry, your oldest will also eventually cut contact with you since appeasing your in-laws is much more important than respecting your kids.
Is your husband's heart broken? You reap what you sow.
YTA for ignoring your kids feeling as well as passively endorsing your parents behavior. You’re teaching your kids it’s not ok to stand up for themselves and that other people’s feelings are more important than theirs. Appalling
So you’re def the AH. If it were me, I’d show up with my son in a skirt and my daughters in jeans.
YTA
Why are you prioritizing your in-laws sexist views about women over your daughters’ comfort? Your justifying your actions because there are cultures where women only wear skirt and dresses also makes no sense and has nothing to do with the situation. Your daughters don’t want to wear dresses, so don’t make them wear dresses.
Your eldest is already planning to go NC with her grandparents and if you don’t drop it, she’ll go NC with you next
YTA I grew up in an ultra conservative family and was forced to wear dresses. Trust me, your daughters will always remember you doing this to them. They will look down on you when they get older and will teach their daughters to not trust you.
>They don't like visiting my husbands parents, which breaks his heart
INFO: Why is that what breaks your husband's heart?
Why is it not far more broken by his own parents treating his children like dress-up dolls?
Why is he not heartbroken by his father feeling more love for a book written two thousand years ago than he does for his grandchildren, and caring more about that book than he does about their comfort?
How come he isn't heartbroken by his own mother being so indescribably shallow that she figures any woman must be showing off their bodies when they want to wear what they feel at home in?
Why are you standing for this, and why do you think it's ok to stand for?
“It isn’t like it hurts them”
But it does. Your oldest already says she’d rather not see her grandparents ever again than have to wear a dress just because they’re judgemental.
You’d rather she be uncomfortable multiple times a week than just say “it’s okay to stay home” or stand up to your in laws. You’re proving to your kids that they can’t count on you because you’re too scared to offend your husbands parents over *pants* of all things. 🙄
Edit: YTA
YTA “a few times a week for a few hours”?? seriously? i wouldn’t think it was okay to force them in dresses anyways but this isn’t like a once a year or even once a month thing. that is ALOT of time to be feeling uncomfortable. and i doubt pants are the only things they have a problem with. you’re setting a bad example for your daughters
YTA. You children are old enough to dress themselves, so stop forcing them to wear dresses when visiting the grandparents. Stop forcing them to visit the grandparents, period. Your children can choose not to spend time around bigots, which is what they are. Not shutting up about how girls wearing pants "isn't Christian" is being bigoted, and your kids can't stand it. It's time to teach grandma and grandpa that they can either be polite when the grandkids visit or they will never see the grandkids again.
Also, you realize grandma saying they're "showing off" is because the grandparents are sexualizing them right? Seriously, stop forcing your kids to see these people.
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>My MIL says it's "showing off" and my FIL always says it isn't christian. This? Right here? Is the problem. YTA for letting your in laws treat your daughters this way.
Yep. Has nothing to do with the in-laws age. My grandma was born in 1909 and she wore pants til the day she died. She wasn’t very religious.
My mom-mom was born in 1917, and was very religious. She wore pants every day. Even to church.
my gigi was born in 1927. never seen her wear a dress even once. the woman also goes to church every single day and is probably qualified to be the pope
The Pope, however, wears a dress (kind of)
The hat is for sure showing off too.
And the ruby red slippers x
And the house painted in gold.
I wonder how expensive his towels and hand sanitiser are. Didn't this bunch take a vow of poverty? He out-drags a drag queen every day of the week. I bet his pajamas aren't made of cardboard or from a second hand discount store.
Actually, this Pope is unlike any other we have had. He does NOT wear the red slippers, just simple regular shoes. He also does not reside in the grand suites of the Vatican, but in a simple apartment on the premises. He’s devoted to the poor, the disenfranchised, and the forgotten. He’s an inspiration.
In general, priests don’t take a vow of poverty unless they belong to a specific order that includes it (think monks, not practicing priests). It’s one of those weird myths that have perpetuated despite not being entirely true.
The number of people who feel women wearing pants is not Christian and that Catholics aren't real Christians is probably closer to a circle than one would think. edit: in a venn diagram, I mean
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Because Catholicism was the original Christianity. The "Protestants" were "protesting" against the Roman Catholic Church.
My BIL knows he's a protestant but did not know what they were protesting. I'm Catholic. I explained. Lol.
I'm gobsmacked that there are still ignoramuses who think Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity. Have these people never heard of Martin Luther and his 95 theses? Henry VIII, Catherine of Aragon, and Anne Boleyn? FFS.
LOL
My nana was born in the 30s and she wore pants all the time, including to church on Sunday. And shorts in the summer! The horror!
I had a GG! She passed away 2 years ago(born 1934) and I never saw her wear a dress other than her wedding photos
My Irish Catholic grandma was born in the late 20s, the only time I can remember seeing her in a dress was at weddings. She was always cold, so she was more comfortable in pants.
I also have an Irish Catholic Nana, born 1930 and from what I can recall she's almost always worn trousers. She used to wear skirts occasionally in the 80s/90s and later for special occasions. I think everyone agrees the in-laws dated opinions have little to do with age or Christianity, it's about control
My catholic Italian Nana (b. 1934) has only been seen in dresses in pictures. She wore a kicking’ pant suit to my wedding. Come to think of it, my Irish Grammy (1939-2016) only ever wore pants. I’ve seen pictures of her in dresses, but never in person. Even when she went to church. Or my Uncle’s wedding.
My Grandma (b. 1923) went to Mass every single morning until she was no longer allowed to drive. Nearly always in pants, as she had work/volunteering to go to right afterwards.
My MIL was born in 1931 and scandalized her Kentucky home town by not only wearing pants, but saying no to her first suitor because he didn’t believe in birth control. She eventually met the man who would become her husband and he whisked her out to California shortly after my husband was born in the early 50’s. They never looked back. It’s not about age. It’s about misogyny. OP, if you see this, start standing up for your daughters or you will find their grandparents aren’t the only ones they cut off.
You just said in one sentence what I took three paragraphs to say. Nicely put.
I have occasional moments of clarity. Normally I have diarrhea of the keyboard.
The sqwerty's!
This needs *all* the upvotes. Thank you for embarrassing me by making me snort-laugh on a busy train
My grandmom was born in 1935. She still to my knowledge goes to church every morning, or she did until COVID. She officiated my gay wedding.
Hell yeah grandmom!!!!
My grandma was born in 1912. Her husband died after their 13 kid. She had kids to raise and a farm to run. No time to worry about stupid stereotypes and role genders.
Yup, my grandma was born in 1937 and she wears pants all the time. She'd find the suggestion that wearing pants is immoral hilarious.
Yeah, these grandparents aren't living 50 years in the past... maybe 150... Or they're just religious and sexist.
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Yeah, 50 years ago was 1973 hardly the dark ages
That's exactly what i was thinking... I would put this attitude at the latest a very conservative household of the 1940s... Misogyny plain and simple
My mom was born in 1926. Her mother never wore pants, but my mom wore jeans in the 40s and 50s before it was cool to do so and I think I remember 3 or 4 times when she wore a skirt. I'm sure my religious grandmother didn't like my mom wearing pants all the time, and my sister and I weren't dress wearers except that we were required to in school, but I also don't remember my grandmother ever saying a word about it. OP, YTA for letting the grandparents treat your daughters this way. You are taking the easy way by forcing them, but look what they're doing to your kids already with one of them saying she wants nothing to do with them the minute she's not required to.
I *love* wearing dresses but would wear pants to visit in-laws like this, even if just to take the attention off my daughters. We wear dresses to church. It's definitely a cultural requirement where we are. If one of my girls objected, I'd make sure she had a nice pants suit or something similarly church appropriate but not a dress.
This is the way. You sound like an excellent mother!! This is exactly what OP *SHOULD* be doing for her daughters. Instead, OP is allowing her in-laws to bully her daughters and not sticking up for them and their needs in order to avoid conflict or awkwardness with her in-laws. She is invalidating her children's feelings of discomfort, especially if they NEVER wear dresses to the point where she had to buy ones specifically to go to the in-laws house and are upset enough over it to go no contact with the grandparents at 18. There is a larger issue here. It isn't JUST a dress to them. OP is an adult and should be putting her in-laws in their place. They have no right to dictate what her children wear and she is showing her children that her in-laws wishes and avoiding conflict matter more to her than their discomfort. She is also teaching them that they should be expected to be ok being uncomfortable and unhappy to appease others because... *(checks notes)* they are girls... As if society is not going to tell them enough that they are expected to change themselves or reduce themselves to make others (mostly men) happy. These are lifelong damaging messages you are sending to your daughters OP. YTA
Yeaa it really doesn't. Some old people just really grew up to be an asshole because of the way their environment was and what not.
My grandma was very religious and I hardly ever seen her in a skirt or dress. Just formal occasions and then, she sometimes she wore pants. I don’t understand the whole religious thing where women just wear skirts or dresses and the mean can dress as they please.
Oh let me explain. It's (1) to drill it into girls and women that they have no agency and (2) to prevent them from doing activities that might create competition for men later in life by becoming competent, curious and self-assured.
And to make sure gender roles are strictly enforced
Right? My grandma was very religious and very (personally) skirts and dresses traditional, and one of my very vivid "going to church to appease grandma while we were visiting her" memories was her absolutely *going off on one* on a fellow (male) parishioner who *dared* tell her precious granddaughter (me) that she needed to wear a skirt to church.
Right? My aunt who was born in the 30s and was so religious I thought she was a nun when I was younger wore pants all the time Side note. I was like 10 when I finally figured out wait she has kids and was married. She can't be a nun. She just worked at a catholic school and wore mostly black after her husband passed when I was a baby. I was not a bright child.
My grandmother was born in 1930. Practicing Jew until she died. She only wore dresses for "special occasions" when she dressed up. Otherwise, she wore pants. 🤷♀️
My very religious grandmother is 81 years old, and she wears pants all the time. She loves the yoga pants from Costco and that’s what she wears most days for around the house, going for a walk, etc. She does wear dresses to church, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen her wear one not to church or a wedding or funeral.
YTA. I was reading this assuming they had to see the grandparents every few months or so and still thought OP was an asshole. Then I got to this part: >it isn’t like it hurts them to wear a dress a few times a week for a few hours. What the hell OP!?! These poor kids have to be subjected to them several times a week!?! You’re worried they aren’t going to speak to the grandparents again after they turn 18, you should be more worried they won’t speak to you or your husband either.
A few times a week, for a few hours each, would be a significant fraction of the time they’re not in school or doing schoolwork. Especially since it would break other time up. So instead of having time for themselves, for social activities and/or extracurriculars or just to themselves, they’re being dressed up and dragged to the grandparents’ place to play pretend fundamentalist. And OP’s husband is heartbroken that his daughters don’t like visiting his parents — how could he really expect anything else? How is he not heartbroken that his parents treat his daughters so poorly?
Yeah...assuming the minimum definition of "a few" that most people would agree on, it's a minimum of 9 hours a week (3 hours, 3 times a week). That's a significant chunk of time that they don't get to spend on extracurricular activities or other things they enjoy, because they're sitting in a uniform they hate listening to Grandma and Grandpa Asshole whinge about politics or whatever.
Yeah, I can guaranteee that Grandma and Grandpa AH spend hours saying AH things about other stuff, too, not just their grandkids' clothing. That kind of negativity and controlling narrow-mindedness gets all over everything -- it doesn't just shut off when you appease them about one thing.
If grandma and grandpa are good Christians, I bet they spend hours there on Sunday.
Not just politics but also what they are wearing and how they live up to their standard of what a woman is and should be.
Agreed! My parents lived downstairs in our two-family home for 13 years and once my daughter was older, she might see them an hour or two a week. She had homework and extra-curricular stuff that garnered her time at that point. This seems like a ridiculously excessive amount of time for teenagers to spend with their grandparents, especially in clothes they hate wearing. I wonder if the kids are homeschooled? That’s the only way I can see how they might have this much free time to spend at their grandparents at 16 and 14. OP, YTA for supporting your grandparents ideals, which are actually out-dated and sexist - not old fashioned. When I think “old fashioned” I think of Emily Post style manners, saying please and thank you, setting the table before dinner and eating as a family, ironing and starching your clothes, baking from scratch, etc. You know, things that modern people often skip, but feel like a unique or satisfying experience when taking the time to do something the old fashioned way. (Manners shouldn’t be old-fashioned but I feel like they really are these days.)
Right? My grandparents lived literally around the corner from us and we saw them once a week at the most. This is downright torture at this point. Your daughters deserve better. Have the conversation with your In-laws that you should have had years ago: that your daughters are in control of THEIR bodies and THEY get to choose what they wear. If the grandparents can’t shut up about it, the kids don’t have to go anymore. Edit: YTA
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100 percent! I thought we were talking about a couple of special occasions, not several hours several days a week. Leave your daughters at home instead. They shouldn't have to spend their time with judgemental bigots. YTA big time. Stand up for your daughters. I certainly hope your own home isn't run on these principles.
It’s a real nasty little lesson for the son to absorb about women and girls, too.
OOh, you're the first person to mention this. Yes. I wonder how he feels? I'd be anything but quiet if my siblings were being treated like that by my grandparents. It's bad enough I've seen this type of shit with my ex-inlaws when they play favorites with my kids. (I still call them out on their terrible behavior and they are both very religious who don't believe women are valued at all - seriously it's gross)
Yes! Excellent point! We have all been so focused on the damage this is doing to the girls, but this will absolutely have an impact on the son as well. This has probably given him a sense of male entitlement already.
Why do I feel that these grandparents have money and it’s about keeping them happy so they inherent?
Came here to say this. There must be a reason they are so preoccupied with keeping the grandparents happy.
It’s giving Flowers in the Attic isn’t it? Be quiet and submissive so we get the bag.
I wanted to quote that line too. But rather to say "It isn't going to hurt the grandparents to look at girls in pants either." Just let them complain instead of giving in.
Hard agree. OP, the first thing you should have done is sat your in laws down, told them that your daughters are not comfortable in dresses, and that if they want a relationship with the girls, they need to keep their opinions on dresses to themselves. That's all it takes. My grandma is 85. She has some really strong views on religion, and the lack thereof in my house. I told her that if she wants to spend time with my kids, she had to stop telling them that I was wrong for how I was raising them and speaking out against the UU church we attend. My kids greatly benefit from knowing her, and she delights in their presence. But setting a boundary isn't disrespectful - it allows us to have a flourishing relationship.
This! “Mom, Dad, our girls don’t like wearing dresses. They can either visit in clothes they are comfortable in and you can keep your opinions to yourself, or they won’t be visiting at all.”
Absolutely, solidarity with OP’s daughters would be huge. The resentment those girls must have for their PARENTS, poor things.
Teaching woman to be submissive. Hell no! YTA
Yes! It IS hurting her children. It’s teaching them that they can be uncomfortable to make someone else happy. It’s telling them that their body preferences are not as important as what someone else wants for their body. Mom and Dad should be the ones who protect their children no matter the circumstance. Not the one who says it’s ok to let someone else make choices for you. That’s a crap lesson and a slippery slope. Maybe next time all 3 kids should wear dresses. See how that plays. Edit: Wow. Oh wow. Thank you for all of the upvotes and awards. ❤️ The best thing is seeing so much support for these girls!
And it's not like this is even a few times a year, per OP this is "a few times a week for a few hours"! So this is a regular extracurricular activity these girls get dragged to and forced to wear a dress for, and OP doesn't get why the girls resent it? Bullshit you don't OP. Bullshit.
That really stuck out to me as well, these girls are in high school. At that age they are should be too busy for that. They are not only be forced to at least spend 6 hours a week on this, they’re forced to wear clothing they find uncomfortable to placate a pair of old wind bags. YTA
Exactly! How much are these girls being forced to miss out on because OP feels compelled to drag them to see these misogynists every other day, or however often? How many much more enjoyable activities have OP and her husband denied them because "we have to go see Grandma and Grandpa Asshole on those days"?
I also doubt it's just the dresses and no other antiquated ideals, religous indoctrination, and speeches multiple times a week. Op, you just don't want to listen to it, and I get that it might be easier to go along to get along. But it's in no way fair to subject your kids to this if they hate it enough that your 16yo is talking about going NC with her grandparents in 2 short years. You need to speak to your husband and your daughters, then all together so everyone has the ability to voice how they feel and see where everyone is at. Then it might be a good idea to try and talk to the inlaws again at this point and let them know that the grandkids only have a few short years to be alienated before you can no longer force them to see them so it may be time to try to change or prepare for that NC eventuality.
Same here. I very highly doubt that they're actually lovely people otherwise, OP just isn't versed enough in the dogwhistles to recognize them for what they are (or is, but is choosing to pretend it's OK because they aren't using out and out slurs).
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Yep. My grandpa used to hit me so hard on the back when he greeted me that I’d yell at him. My parents never stood up for me and instead made fun of me for years for it along with my whole extended family. And my parents still wonder why it took me eleven years to tell them I was raped in high school? Lol not just for this specific reason but the overall lesson of being told my body doesn’t belong to me and mens egos are way more important than my pain
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Bodily autonomy?!?! Hell no, not for women! YTA
This...and that their desires and wants don't matter. OP is an AH
OP, one set of my grandparents was just like your ILs and I have had virtually no relationship with them for my adult life. I can’t think of a single memory of feeling relaxed or happy with them. There was always something they were picking at or criticizing. On the rare occasions I did see them as an adult, they criticized how little I visited the entire time, which in turn made me want to see them even less. I also had a lot of resentment toward the parent who never stood up for me with them and subjected me to all of their criticism. Every visit felt like being an emotional punching bag for a couple hours and I couldn’t wait to escape. My sister feels the same way. YTA and you need to do right by your kids. Sit down and have a conversation about what they want their relationship with their grandparents to be. I’m not saying never see them, but you may need to cut back, or your partner may need to have a difficult conversation with your ILs, or you and your daughters may need to find a compromise (like leggings under dresses) and you shut down any discussion of their clothes during visits. Some food for thought: I know there are some people who just really hate wearing dresses that much. But if your kids actually enjoyed spending time with your ILs outside of the dress thing, I don’t think this would be such an issue. I’d encourage you to really think about what your visits like them are like from the kids’ perspective and if the dresses are actually the true problem or a symptom of a different problem.
💯💯💯 Yes! My guess is the dresses are the scapegoat for other things the girls are feeling uncomfortable about because they can’t say what’s really bothering them. If that’s the case, OP and her husband need to look really hard at themselves if the girls can’t tell them the truth about what the dresses actually represent. It could be as simple that they really want to spend “a few times a week for several hours” with their friends or doing sports, instead of visiting the grandparents. This seems like an excessive and unhealthy amount of time to spend with people that is taking away time they should be spending with kids their own age.
Reading the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs I was thinking "these kids are gonna go NC at the first opportunity", and then there it is in the 4th lol. >The issue is our oldest is planning to never speak to her grandparents again after she's 18, and I'm worried it's affecting them Good. These controlling, bigoted grandparents deserve no less. YTA for regularly making your own children uncomfortable to pander to them.
Wait, did I read that right? Oldest is already planning on going NC as soon as she has the legal right to decide that for herself…and op is worried about the effect that’s having on the sexist fundie *grandparents?* Good lord. YTA, op, in so many ways.
I’m puzzled at why she has to wait till she’s 18. I decided I no longer wanted to see my grandmother at 13 and never did. Not even attending her funeral.
I mean...op's here asking if she's t.a. for not letting her teens *dress themselves* to visit the grandparents. I imagine allowing them to decide whether or not to visit in the first place has never occurred to her. Ime, people who see this kind of blatantly sexist and fundamentalist religious behavior and call it "traditional"...don't always have the healthiest nor most realistic understanding of personal autonomy and boundaries.
That really makes me think it isn’t even just about the clothes. The grandparents have definitely been saying or doing other things to those girls that OP either didn’t directly witness or simply ignores.
Yeah, zero chance their sexism doesn’t spill out at the girls in other ways.
New flash: Christ didn’t wear pants, either. So, if you’re traditional, it’s not masculine OR Christian to wear pants. This is about controlling women’s bodies and removing their bodily autonomy. If it was three times a year, I might see it as an acceptable concession. Every week, for hours? YTA, big time. You are telling your daughters that other people can dictate about their bodies. It’s a terrible lesson to impart.
Yeah. How hard is it to say "That is a really shitty thing to think about your grandchildren. And it's just not how the world operates. Keep your mouths shut about what they're wearing, or the visits will stop"? Like yes, emotionally it will be a bit of a hurdle for someone who's used to letting these people walk over them, but at the end of the day your kids should know you're on their side and in their corner. OP and her husband need to find their spines.
Adding, their grandparents probably thought they were hussies for showing ankle, and looked rough and common for not not having some form of corset around the waist. My great grandmother used to lace her mother's corsets for her in the morning. That's how much fashion has changed. And in the 40s women often wore pants. My Nanna would be wearing pants making ammunition during the war. Katherine Hepburn would be in black and white movies wearing pants. By the 50s they were standard attire for women. That is 70 years ago! If they are in their 80s they were choosing their own fashion standards in an era when women wearing pants was normalised. Just to add that it has nothing to do with fashion for the culture. They have decided something is or isn't acceptable likely contrary to the culture they grew up in. And now their grandkids are being forced to change their clothes to accommodate their opinions. That's controlling Great they like women in dresses, then they can wear dresses. But they are dictating something that isn't part of the culture, to their own standards and everyone is accommodating because they don't want to upset them. Why? Is grandma going to make a fuss? Plenty of traditional values would think a woman shouldnt be so mouthy. is grandad going to make a fuss, plenty of 'traditional' values would say he is 'a bit funny' for caring so much about women's clothing. Or do they just get to pick what traditional values to comply with and everyone else has to make do? Keeping the peace may be the cost you like to pay, but you have almost adult children saying 'hey, that cost/benefit equation does stack up for me.' I would think raising women OP want them to be in a position where they have the bodily autonomy and confidence to be able to say no to people making demands on how they live their life. Or they are raising daughters who are more likely to change their lives around a controlling partner. Don't normalise women living smaller lives to make others feel more comfortable, there is enough of that already and it leads to heartbreak. And to add to that history of women: couldn't get a mortgage without a male relative signing off until the 70s, couldn't legally drink at the bar until the 80s in the UK. Traditional values are far too often handcuffs on women's wrists, put there on men, and then socially reinforced by women because it's 'virtuous'.
I agree, its 100% sexist. If it weren’t, they’d expect the son to show up “proper” clothing as well.
YTA. I know it seems like it’s just easier to get them to wear a dress but it’s sending them the message that their feelings and comfort aren’t as important as other peoples. Their grandparents should love them for them, not if they wear what they consider appropriate clothing. It’s not 1950 anymore. G-parents need to accept things are different and you need to support your kids.
Also, it's not like we're talking visits twice a year at Christmas and Easter or something like that... OP said "a few times a week"! That's kind of a lot to deal with, actually. And I'm not surprised they don't want to visit anymore, they've now come to associate visiting those grandparents with being forced to be uncomfortable. They're old enough now to start making their own decisions about this. And your husband is perfectly capable of saying, "Well mom and dad, I know you love seeing the girls but to be honest they're tired of being criticized for wearing pants, so as long as that continues they've decided they don't want to visit anymore."
Right, like twice a year, Not that it’s right or wrong but my family would turn it into a running joke and it’d be a funny albeit borderline traumatic memory but we’d talk smack how crazy our grandparents were… Multiple times a week like they’re regularly in each other’s lives is a no-go and ridiculous.
Right? We would all show up in gowns- husband and son included🤣
> Also, it's not like we're talking visits twice a year at Christmas and Easter or something like that... OP said "a few times a week"! That's kind of a lot to deal with, actually. Yeah, this felt pretty reasonable up until that. "Every once in a while you might have to do something uncomfortable to make someone you care about happy, even if the thing they're happy about feels stupid to you - we do this because we care about our loved ones" is a fine lesson to learn. "You need to put up with other people's irrationality on a regular basis because we said so" is a much worse lesson.
Sorry, I don’t think this is reasonable at all. Those girls never wear skirts, yet they are forced to whenever they visit the grandparents. Even if it only were several times a year, how is it reasonable to do that? Their brother surely doesn’t have to accommodate to this nonsense, so the girls are essentially taught that they are inferior and have to accept feeling physically uncomfortable just because they lack a penis. I get it’s important sometimes to do stuff you don’t want to, but having to wear skirts just to avoid conflict with people who are clearly in the wrong isn’t one of that.
They should send their son in a dress. "I thought the grand kids were expected to wear dresses???"
Also, as someone who was forced to wear skirts and dresses as a preteen, it will turn them off of skirts and dresses. I didn’t wear one for years because my grandmother made me wear one every day, even in the dead of winter. One day I begged to wear jeans and she said no, wear your wool skirt. My wool skirt was knee length and itchy. She also made me wear thin tights.
But the same logic applies to the grandparents. They can suck it up and be uncomfortable seeing the girls in pants (the horror /s) because they love their grandchildren. Dont they?
That's not reasonable. There's no reasonable amount of misogyny children should be expected to accommodate.
Yeah, that blew me away. I disagree totally with doing this, but doing it 2-3 times a year is completely different than doing it multiple times per week! I'm going to guess if OP and Hubby had laid it out from the start that this wouldn't be tolerated, the grandparents would be well over it by now. Now its going to be a much bigger thing than it would have been if they'd just responded with "the girls are allowed to wear whatever makes them comfortable, and if you continue to complain we just won't be bringing them any more" when this first became an issue. >The issue is our oldest is planning to never speak to her grandparents again after she's 18, and I'm worried it's affecting them. OP, I'd be worried about how its going to affect your relationship with them more if I was you. One day they're going to work out that while GPs were the ones complaining, it was you and your husband who actually forced them to do this...
I’d wonder though if hubby would have been so conditioned to appease his parents that when he had his own children that the boundary never got set. Thin end of the wedge has ended up here on a precipice with his oldest daughter wanting to go NC the first chance she gets. OP, I don’t know if you tried arguing for your kids’ body autonomy when they were young, or didn’t even know what type of parents you and hubby wanted to be (me and my partner muddled through it with plenty of disagreements at the beginning), but it’s time to put your foot down and stand up for your kids. As others have said, your daughters deserve bodily autonomy and their own boundaries to be respected. And your son surely does not need to start believing that it is okay to treat people like this either. OP right now YTA. But you might have a chance to turn that around if you stand up for your kids decisively.
Exactly. There's a difference between "please don't wear jeans at your cousin's wedding" and "we are going to let closed-minded misogynists dictate what you should wear on an almost daily basis because *their* values are more important than *YOUR* autonomy." What some people seem to be missing is that this isn't about a dress code, it's about some pretty antiquated gender issues and there are a lot of additional messages in that. OP, if you think your kids are only being alienated by their grandparents you're kidding yourself. You've sent a very clear message that any gender equality they feel at school/ around friends away from the in-laws is ultimately meaningless because when it comes down to it, multiple times a week, every single week, ***it can be revoked*** at the whim of anyone else whose values and opinions you prioritize more. You're prioritizing people who believe that your daughters are only as important as their ability to submissively please other people with their femininity and appearance. If that sounds like a gross exaggeration that can't be true ("no, grandma and grandpa care about them more than that!") then surely gma and gpa would eventually be able to accept them in pants, no? If not, then you already have your answer. What you need to realize is that either way, this is *already* the answer your kids see ***you*** enabling on a near-daily basis. You are not on the sidelines here OP. Your in-laws may be old fashioned, but you're the one teaching your kids that seeking your in-laws' approval is much more important to you than advocating for your kids. ("Now remember, kids, it's more important to hide who you are in order to please everyone else, even if they're trying to control your body, appearance, femininity, and making you ***deeply*** uncomfortable.") *(Slow clap...)* Ask yourself if you would want them to date a guy who also supports this message. Letting them wear jeans at home doesn't matter if you're still teaching them that their autonomy only exists when it isn't contested by anyone else who wants to look at them.
YTA, women wore pants 50 years ago. And qhy are the girls over at their place so much, if your In-Laws are not able to actually respect them?
I don't think people realize 50 years ago was the 1970s.
And even if they are stuck im the 1950s, women wearing pants, was a thing back then.
And since the grandparents are using Christianity to back their views, let's talk about how back in Biblical days, neither women \*nor\* men wore pants.
I wonder if they could get the boy to wear a dress just once to see the reaction. I would pay to see that!
“We thought you were big on dresses, sorry! God there’s just no pleasing you people.”
"Grandpa, we need to have a talk about those revealing heathen pants you've been wearing"
Yeah I tried to do the math on this and I feel like we’re past the point where the ‘they’re just old!’ argument works. Even if the grandparents are 90 years old, they would have been in their teens/twenties during the 50s and would’ve definitely seen women wearing pants early on. You’d think they would have gotten over it, seeing as it’s been normalized for the majority of their lives
Trousers were common in the 20s and 30s for women, particularly in the form of what's vasically pant suits. Pre WW1 it was more frowned upon though, so they're only 110 years out of date.
Exactly! My grandma is 95 this year (b. 1928) and she is an italian catholic, raised in a poor household of farmers. She still wears pants everyday and asks my best friend (F) about her girlfriend every week. Sends them presents for christmas and birthday and invited them to her house multiple times. My younger brother lives with his girlfriend without being married. No problem on that too, she actually took his girlfriend in as another granddaughter 😆 Because she's intelligent.
I know! If they were really stuck on 50 years ago, I'd think they'd be all about women wearing pants, and smoking pot, and key parties...
Listen here you little shit
I feel the same way when the AITA are about “my parents/uncle/aunt are old fashioned” and they’re Gen X. I GREW UP IN THE ERA OF FRANKIE GOES TO HOLLYWOOD AND TWISTED SISTER AND BOY FUCKING GEORGE BEING MAINSTREAM ARTISTS it wasn’t the fucking 1880s.
You are on the wrong side of history here, without question. YTA My grandmother used to fight with my dad about me not wearing dresses to church. God I hated dresses. My grandmother was born before 1900, she had some *very* outdated ideas. And my dad was not exactly a hero dad in many ways, but in this aspect he stood up for me, hard. Against his own mother who he loved and admired very much. But on this he would not allow her to try to teach me that I had to follow these ridiculous expectations. I overheard it once, and it stayed with me for life. It mattered in many ways. It is *really important* to stand up for your girls on this. I don't think you understand how significant it is that you're failing to do it.
>My grandmother was born before 1900 Which is the only time a person can be born where having those attitudes is remotely excusable. Every woman relative of mine that I’ve met in my lifetime, including the ones that were born when the Titanic was the latest thing, has worn pants.
Just deleting the comment that was here because what I meant is different than how it's being read, and it's producing some off-piste comments about church-related patriarchies that don't actually fit with the thing I was describing.
YTA. You’re teaching them their comfort doesn’t matter and it’s their responsibility to cater to how other people think they should dress and act. It’s misogynistic and gross. Stop it.
This- why I don’t talk to my parents- fix urself before it’s too late
I was trying to figure out why it bothered me so much when i too, was thinking, it’s just a dress? But this is what i couldn’t formulate into words. YTA op i would never want my kids to feel that way.
YTA, and being forced into skirts/dresses against their will may well be part of why your daughters hate visiting. If you let them wear shorts or pants, your in-laws would have to learn to accept what they cannot change, or learn to live without their granddaughters when they alienated them enough that they refuse to come. The fact that some cultures don’t accept women’s rights is a terrible excuse for imposing on your daughters. Plenty of cultures are accepting of parents beating their children, would you use that as an excuse to occasionally hit your children?
Right? Arguing that women in many cultures don’t have the *right* to wear pants isn’t the argument you think it is. YTA- I’m glad your daughters are strong enough to see through your misogyny and stand up for themselves. Sad their own mother won’t but at least they’re likely to have each others backs.
Right?! "Other women around the world don't have the right to wear pants, so why should my daughters have that right?" is a shitty argument. Not to mention I think being forced to wear dresses is the *main* reason OP's daughter's hate visiting. If there aren't others. It's clear the grandparents care more about what their grandchildren wear than about their actual grandchildren and considering OP's daughters are teens now I think they can definitely tell that by now. Grandparent's narrow minded view of the world is going to lose them their grandkids and if OP doesn't start defending them they might lose their daughters. YTA
Wel I hope OP doesn’t vote, be financially independent, have a job, had a full education or drive because in other cultures women don’t have the right to do those thing. But on a more serious note, what ever in the F? Women started wearing trousers in the 1890s, and they really got popular starting in the 40s, that’s 80 years of women wearing trousers.
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And they make the kids do this A FEW TIMES A WEEK. This isn't "wear a dress for granny's birthday because she's gonna be dead soon and it's her special day" .... They are exposing their kids to these narrow minded grandparents and forcing them to follow their misogynistic dress code several times a week.
The way they aren't allowed control of their own bodies because of the disapproval of their grandparents tells you everything you need to know about the messages they are getting several times a week.
Also, how do they even have time for several visits per week? With school and activities, I can’t even imagine.
I wish my own mother had been courageous enough to stand up for me with my horrifically bigoted "traditional" grandfather.
YTA - You are forcing gender stereotypes and religious fundamentalism on your daughter's while ignoring body autonomy.
This has never made sense to me, forcing women to wear skirts for modesty. Skirts are easy access and back in Jesus times men didn’t wear pants.
everyone wearing tunics and feeling that good breeze
YTA. Why do your in-laws sexist ideals matter more to you and your husband than your children?
If I had to guess, I'd say the answer begins with "I" and ends in "nheritance".
This! A million times this!! YTA
HARD YTA. Your daughters will learn body autonomy from you, one way or another. They will either learn that their clothing is to be chosen for the whims and approval of others, or that they have the freedom to express their individual desires and preferences. It is very telling that it's the *girls* whose clothing is being dictated, and not their brother. Think about that, take all the time you need. As their parent, your *only* responsibility here is to support your daughters, and stand up for them against their grandparents. EDIT: Thank you for the award 😊
And not only the clothing. Forcing them to go several times a week for hours. If it is one time a week or biweekly, okay. But this is to much. Says somebody who grew up with grandparents very close (placewise and emotionally). If they want to go fine, but forcing 🤮
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YTA. You are telling your daughters that they have tk conform to outdated sexist stereotypes to appease these relatives. What are you going to do when they say women shouldn’t have opinions about politics and let their husbands decide for them who to vote for? These little battles may seem small, but the underlying message they send is HUGE.
Don't be ridiculous. Woman, shouldn't vote at all. It's too much for their little brain to handle. Also it cause infertility. /s YTA
YTA: >I guess it is, but in a lot of cultures women only wear skirts and dresses so I don't think it's a big deal. That's true. But they didn't grow up in that culture. You're forcing them to pretend to be something other than who they are for people who are supposed to love them for who they are. I don't blame your oldest for wanting to go no contact with her grandparents but you'd better be careful with how far you push this because if you're not, she'll go no-contact with you too. EDIT: >Here's the issue, they don't like the idea of women wearing pants. My MIL says it's "showing off" and my FIL always says it isn't christian. Question: Aren't dresses showing off more by revealing their legs?
Honestly I don't even care if they're from that culture. Cultures can be sexist too. It used to be culture that women couldn't be raped within marriage. Is that okay if you grew up in it? Do we then say that women from cultures which force them to stay at home or not have the same freedoms as men can just live that way then? Like nah, thats your culture so deal with it?
There are cultures today that are fighting for the "right to preserve cultural traditions". Those traditions include forcefully holding down terrified little girls and cutting off the vast majority of their external genitalia before sewing the ragged, bleeding, raw edges of what *used to be* their labia majora together. They leave a hole about the size of a number 2 pencil for urine and menstrual discharge to escape. Don't use time honored traditions, or culture, or religion, or any other damned thing to force your daughters to fit into a box that they have no interest in fitting. As an example of doing this, your decision didn't have such a drastic and cruel outcome, but the logic used to force your daughters hand is a slippery fucking slope. That logic has taken us into some of the darkest corners of the human heart. It's got to stop sometime.
The problem these zealots have with pants is that you can see exactly where the woman's genitals are. In a dress you can pretend they don't exist.
YTA My grandparents were like your in-laws, and my parents were like you. I cut off my relationship with my grandparents after I graduated from high school, and I went low contact with my parents for years thereafter. I expect that your daughters will do the same. If you want to destroy your relationship with your daughters, keep doing what you’re doing.
My granny was a sexist, xenophobic racist. Kids should be "seen and not heard" type. I disowned her in childhood. Never went to her funeral when she died when I was an adult. Despite mums pleas. OP... The daughters will cut their grandparents off. And I'm WITH THEM 100% on it. Next... They'll cut you off if you keep apologising for their actions and downplaying their severity, and ignoring their boundaries about dress wearing. First I cut off my granny... Then through the years... My mother and I are now Low Contact. One reason due to she kept apologising for her mother's ways with "she was from a different generation" nonsense I cannot abide. That lie. Being 70 means they've had decades more time on this earth to grow learn and adapt. But they CHOOSE not to. Choose harm. And fuck that... Your daughter's grandparents are choosing to harm them with their actions. So are you. You are choosing to harm your daughters. You are putting your son over your daughters. You are putting your in law's over your daughters. You and your in-laws have placed your daughters bottom of the barrel in this family. How can you NOT SEE this is gonna cause a fuckton of problems? The dress situation is abusive behaviour from the grandparents AND their parents. My goodness, grow up, get your big adult pants on and do better. Fast. YTA.
YTA… you’re not listening to your kids. You’re making them wear a dress for other people beliefs and comfort. They expressed they hate wearing dresses and you still make them. Your eldest daughter is already saying she’s not going to speak with them when she’s 18 for this reason and you’re still dismissing their feelings towards it…
If OP continues down this path, the grandparents won't be the only ones the daughters stop talking to. I can't say I'd blame them. If the parents refuse to listen, why would the kids waste their breath or time?
"Traditional" is a euphemism for "bigoted." I guarantee you they are racist. Stop teaching your girls that they have to deny who they are and pacify bigots. YTA
This. If you have to explain that someone isn’t a bigot, I guarantee you they are probably bigots.
"They aren't outwardly bigoted", followed by a whole post of OP indirectly acknowledging, excusing, and sacrificing her children to her in-laws' blatant misogyny. She can't see the forest for the trees.
YTA Not only will your kids cut off contact with the grandfolk when they’re old enough, they’ll cut off contact with you too. You’ll have no one to blame but yourself
YTA I see your logic about how women in other cultures have to dress a certain way. But there are a few key points here: 1. Women in other cultures also don’t like being told what to wear. 2. In THIS culture, most people no longer approve of telling women what to wear. 3. These grandparents sound like ungracious and insufferable people regardless of whether their preferences in female clothing are adhered to, so why are we trying so hard to appease them?
I’m almost tempted to suggest the girls go the malicious compliance route and show up at their grandparents in full Edwardian dress. With the giant bustle and everything. Fun fact: apparently men of that time absolutely *hated* those large bustles and hoop skirts because they basically forced men to keep a more respectful distance. Hard to grope a woman without her consent if she’s got a basketful of extra fabric in the way.
YTA for forcing your kids to placate closed minded bigots. Bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
YTA- “they’re not racist that I know of” (they likely are, I would bet money on it) But you brush over their sexism as though it’s no big deal. They’ve done this to themselves and you being an extension of their sexist patriarchal bs will cause your kids to resent you too. You suck at parenting.
"They're both quite tomboyish" Are you calling your daughters for wearing clothes that they like and that doesn't fit with your ignorant way of thinking? What kind of horrible mother are you? IT'S CLOTHES. IT'S CLOTHES You are the one who is making drama and forcing your daughters to wear dresses. As the daughter of a mother as bad as you, I tell you, when they grow up, they will buy everything except dresses, because "mother made us wear dresses and now I hate them" My mother did the same thing, and for YEARS I couldn't enjoy wearing a dress or skirt because she made me do it. YTA!!!
YTA but so is everyone else (except your daughters.) You shouldn’t force your kids to be exposed to standards that dictate what they are allowed to present as because of their gender. They are both old enough to make the decision not to go and just stay home.
YTA. Your in-laws are AHs. But here's the thing. As a parent it's your job to advocate for your children and to teach them how to advocate for themselves. In addition to teaching them terrible things about gender and purity culture, and complementarianism no doubt, you're teaching them to submit to people who treat them badly just to keep the peace. Your in-laws are responsible for developing their relationships with their grandchildren. They chose self-righteous authoritarianism and are alienating their granddaughters. You can't make any of this better. What you should do is what's best for your children, not what's easiest for you.
50 years ago was the 1970s; weren’t women burning their bras by then? Anyway, YTA. And I feel like this goes beyond wearing dresses.
It was the 60s when they burned bras. I graduated high school in the 70s. We wore pants when I was kid in the 60s. OP is just making excuses for her in-laws lousy behavior.
Honestly you are teaching your daughters that it is ok to be bullied by their own family. Only the elderly deserve respect? And men. Wrong message.
YTA Why would you expose your children to this mindset
Yta >Our daughters hate this, and think it's unfair. I guess it is, but in a lot of cultures women only wear skirts and dresses so I don't think it's a big deal. And they're also sexist. Cultures can be sexist and racist and a whole host of things It used to be American culture that black people had to sit at the back of the bus. Was it okay then? It used to be culture everywhere that rape within marriage didn't exist. Was that okay and not a big deal? Just because something is culturally accepted doesn't make it okay If this was a one time thing that's one thing. But a repeated occasion that happens multiple times a month? I'd call bs too. And honestly I wouldn't blame your daughters if they never speak to your grandparents again
"Traditional" is NOT what I'd call your in-laws. Sexist bigots with a real need to mind their own eye-beams is more in the right ballpark. Some cultures support all kinds of bad things. What a crummy excuse for your lack of bravery. YTA and so is your hubby.
YTA. You’re forcing your daughters into an uncomfortable mold to please grown adults who do not accept or love them as they are. Your in-laws sound awful and instead of having their crusty outdated bs challenged, they’ve been coddled at the expense of your children. Of course they will end the relationship as soon as they have the autonomy to do so.
yta how about you stand up for your children for once. geez, the assholeness is real. you are literally forcing your children to do something they hate and then are surprised if they dont want to have anything to do with their grandparents and cut contact as soon as they can. stand up for your children, tell your inlaws they have to accept them just as they are and not give them any grief over it. they can dress however they want, they are literally not hurting anyone, you and your inlaws on the other hand, are. they want to cut contact with their grandparents, dont be surprised if you re next if you keep this up.
Forcing your kids into a box to please others is never a good look. YTA.
YTA I promise you, as a woman who grew up in the south amongst these "traditional" people, they are ALL bigoted. Maybe you don't see it, but I promise you, if they feel that way about girls wearing dresses, they also don't approve of LGBTQIA+ folks or the rights of women to their own bodies. I don't blame your daughters for hating going there, and I don't blame them for wanting to go NC when they can. Stop forcing your children to adhere to a dress code from 1965
OMFG!!! YTA a hundred times over. You're subjecting your girls to this abusive treatment multiple times a week?!? And you're only wondering if you might be an AH?!? You're teaching them time after time after time that they have less value than boys and less autonomy over their bodies than boys. I hope you aren't counting on having meaningful relationships with them after they turn 18. Facilitating years of abuse is likely to make them want to avoid you, too, not just your in-laws.
YTA. A lot of cultures discriminate against women - that doesn't make it "not a big deal." That's disgusting logic. Please don't teach your children that discrimination is okay because it happens in lots of places. And this, this is not an excuse: "They seem to think the world should have stopped 50 years ago" I don't know where you are from of course, but at least in the US, we were far past that 50 years ago. I'm close to 60 and still remember my favorite pants from kindergarten - my brown stretchy pants with the sewn in seam down the front. Heck, my mom is in her 80's and she was wearing pants as a teenager. Pedal pushers were a fad in the 1950s, seventy years ago.
YTA. Requiring females to wear dresses is extremely sexist. And I know lots of Christians who wear pants. So I don’t know if that is a Christian thing or not. But your daughters are old enough to pick what they wear.
Let your kids be who they are. Why are your daughters responsible for conforming just to avoid conflict? This request is not reasonable. Your kids should dress in a way that makes them feel comfortable & your husband should manage his parents. YTA
“It isn’t Christian” is a dead giveaway that your parents are in fact intolerant a holes
Yes. YTA. Why would you encourage your kids to be around people who wouldn’t love them as they are?
YTA. Stop forcing your children into uncomfortable situations. It’s not hurting anyone for them not to wear a dress. Stand up for your kids and tell your grandparents the affect this ridiculous rule is having on their future relationship with their grandchildren. Be a parent and ADVOCATE FOR YOUR CHILDREN.
YTA. >it isn't like it hurts them to wear a dress a few times a week for a few hours. It does. It shows they have no control over their body and that it's more important to appease old sexist people than for them to have a voice. Not once a year. Not once a month. But for several hours a week. Because *you* want things easier *for you* and you don't mind dresses. >The issue is our oldest is planning to never speak to her grandparents again after she's 18, and I'm worried it's affecting them. Geez, do you think? Don't worry, your oldest will also eventually cut contact with you since appeasing your in-laws is much more important than respecting your kids. Is your husband's heart broken? You reap what you sow.
YTA for ignoring your kids feeling as well as passively endorsing your parents behavior. You’re teaching your kids it’s not ok to stand up for themselves and that other people’s feelings are more important than theirs. Appalling So you’re def the AH. If it were me, I’d show up with my son in a skirt and my daughters in jeans.
You're always gonna be the asshole for placating outdated views. Being a good person is more important than keeping the peace.
Your oldest might not want to speak to you either if you keep marching her over to visit with people she's starting to resent. YTA.
YTA Why are you prioritizing your in-laws sexist views about women over your daughters’ comfort? Your justifying your actions because there are cultures where women only wear skirt and dresses also makes no sense and has nothing to do with the situation. Your daughters don’t want to wear dresses, so don’t make them wear dresses. Your eldest is already planning to go NC with her grandparents and if you don’t drop it, she’ll go NC with you next
I'm personally interested where in the bible it says, "Women, thou shall not wear blue jeans."
YTA I grew up in an ultra conservative family and was forced to wear dresses. Trust me, your daughters will always remember you doing this to them. They will look down on you when they get older and will teach their daughters to not trust you.
>They don't like visiting my husbands parents, which breaks his heart INFO: Why is that what breaks your husband's heart? Why is it not far more broken by his own parents treating his children like dress-up dolls? Why is he not heartbroken by his father feeling more love for a book written two thousand years ago than he does for his grandchildren, and caring more about that book than he does about their comfort? How come he isn't heartbroken by his own mother being so indescribably shallow that she figures any woman must be showing off their bodies when they want to wear what they feel at home in? Why are you standing for this, and why do you think it's ok to stand for?
“It isn’t like it hurts them” But it does. Your oldest already says she’d rather not see her grandparents ever again than have to wear a dress just because they’re judgemental. You’d rather she be uncomfortable multiple times a week than just say “it’s okay to stay home” or stand up to your in laws. You’re proving to your kids that they can’t count on you because you’re too scared to offend your husbands parents over *pants* of all things. 🙄 Edit: YTA
YTA “a few times a week for a few hours”?? seriously? i wouldn’t think it was okay to force them in dresses anyways but this isn’t like a once a year or even once a month thing. that is ALOT of time to be feeling uncomfortable. and i doubt pants are the only things they have a problem with. you’re setting a bad example for your daughters
YTA. You think women didn't wear pants in the 70s?
YTA for forcing your daughters to not be themselves just because it would make someone else happy.
YTA. You children are old enough to dress themselves, so stop forcing them to wear dresses when visiting the grandparents. Stop forcing them to visit the grandparents, period. Your children can choose not to spend time around bigots, which is what they are. Not shutting up about how girls wearing pants "isn't Christian" is being bigoted, and your kids can't stand it. It's time to teach grandma and grandpa that they can either be polite when the grandkids visit or they will never see the grandkids again. Also, you realize grandma saying they're "showing off" is because the grandparents are sexualizing them right? Seriously, stop forcing your kids to see these people.
YTA. Replace dress with burka and see how that would sound.