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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told Sue that she isn’t invited to daughter lunch and that she is not my kid. I could have been nicer even if I tried to do that first and she was not getting it
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INFO: Who invited her? She obviously was told by someone. No one overhears a conversation and just invites themselves to things without telling anyone. Given she called and asked what time tea was, someone must’ve told her she could go. Whoever said person was should’ve communicated with you, but I’m interested to know if it was one of your daughters.
Idk, it wasn’t me. I checked with the girls so it wasn’t them.
I messaged my oldest and he hasn’t responded yet but probably him.
Edit: according to him he mentioned it. Also my daughter reached out to him asking why he invited her. He is claiming he didn’t and just mentioned it.
We are going to have a full conversation with him in a bit.
Eh DIL could have exaggerated the conversation to son so dad looks like the bad guy. Sounds like the type to do that if she’s the type to invite herself to events.
I agree! I Personally remember someone just like her who I use to work with, I was talking to another colleague who was talking about his birthday party places and she walks in the room hears what we were talking about and the proceeds to invite herself asking for the time and date. I was in complete shock and he looked just as shocked and confused. People think that really annoys me.
This type of behavior is so wild to me! I'm waaaay on the other end of the spectrum and practically require an explicit invitation or else I feel like I'm crashing something. I don't think my way is necessarily normal or right, but I just can't fathom operating with such social confidence at all times
I knew a guy who fully tried to invite himself to my wedding. I was like, no I’ve known you 3 months. It got to the point he was borderline harassing me, calling me, promising me a nice gift, it was incredibly weird.
> Sounds like the son loves drama more so than the DIL.
This is why nobody should take relationship advice from reddit, and definitely not from this anyone that frequents this sub. What a ridiculous thing to say. Everyone here is just looking for drama and to judge random strangers.
Love this sub honestly.
A wife tells a story: "Your husband should always have your back, stand up against his parents for you, and always be ready to cut all contact with them".
A father tells a story: "Your son should always stand up to his wife, put her in her place and refuse to entertain her drama".
It highlights how useless the sub, but damn is it entertaining to see all those horrible takes written by teenagers with no life experience lol
Humans are social creatures! We're hardwired to want to take the side of the person having a conversation with us over a total stranger.
Unless we've decided the person talking to us can't be trusted, in which case we'll take everything they say in the worst possible way.
This subreddit is a great case study in those behaviors but it's certainly not the only place they're seen. If anything, it's a great reminder to be aware of our own biases.
Actually I’m a bit sad for your DIL not because you don’t accept her but because somebody told her that she could come and that it was important for her.
I understand why you refused but I also see how she could be sad about it because it was clearly important for her.
The person who told her about it and invited her without checking with you is the true asshole, not you and not her imo.
She probably had it in her head that she was invited and was just figuring out where and when to show up.
When she was told that she wasn't invited, she was likely shocked and hurt. She probably wasn't at her sharpest when she responded, as most people don't keep their composure in this situation.
I vote for NAH.
Same. I'd be awkward as hell if I found out I wasn't actually being included after being told I was. Especially if my husband said something like, well since you're a daughter in law now, you can go to these daughter lunches. Then reaching out to get details. I'd absolutely sound like an awkward idiot stumbling my words to end the phone call.
OP, nta but if you want to have a relationship with any future grandchildren or continue having that bond with your son, maybe find something else yall can do to build a bond. His wife is his primary family now, if you want them around, connections need to be built. It sounds like she was trying with reaching out, although awkwardly.
Is she the only child in-law? I could see how it puts her in a really awkward spot as the only "outsider," the only *family* without the unearnable privileges of simply being born into the family, thd only one not invited out with either parent. Doesn't sound like the dad is really trying elsewhere to make her part of the family, just exclude her. Would it hurt to have included her this time? Then plan something else maybe with just the daughters? The dad doesn't have to include her in a daughter event but needs to balance it by clearly reaching out and welcoming her in other ways.
If OP insists on not inviting her, he needs to have more to say. Like at least point out he values her as another part of the family. Hopefully say, "But I'd love to spend time with you and your husband." Just drawing hard lines and emphasizing exclusion will push her away, and like the poster above said, *probably the son too.*
If she's like me (who I might add, as the woman comes up with the ideas and plans to invite the in-laws over), *she'll get it loud and clear, and start living like she's not your family more thoroughly than you probably anticipated.* Who knows what that will mean for the son and grandkids.
This was my thought. While I definitely don’t think everyone needs to be invited to everything, reading the post, my initial reaction was to wonder how often DIL gets left out of ‘family’ things. And if she’s the only one always left out, there’s a point where that goes beyond ‘tradition’.
Yeah, She’s not a birth daughter but she’s part of the family now and if you guys get along as already stated I don’t get the harm in inviting her. Could’ve been a beautiful bonding experience
If she would have said "Hey, I heard this was going on, and I was hoping I would be able to join you, would that be okay?" then maybe it would have been a different outcome.
Only if his girls were okay with it. If my dad had invited my SIL, I would have pitched a fit and not gone. In laws don't have to be involved in everything.
Yes but shes still not his daughter.
I get on very well with my FIL, he even calls me son every now and then. But as fond as i am of him i understand that i am not his actual son
My FIL has had a yearly fishing trip that he invites all the men in HIS family to. My wife (gf at the time) mentioned that I should go as we had lived together for 5 years at this point... I had not been invited by my FIL, so I let her know that if HE texts, or calls me to invite me that I would obviously accept but that calling to get an invitation is rude and just showing up is doubly rude.
My FIL did invite me the following year and it has been a great way to integrate into her family and their traditions... I can't imagine I'd have any relationship at all with my FIL if I had just called and asked for an invitation like the DIL in this story did.
Familial relationships are the stickiest realm for a partner to navigate, as such the DIL shouldn't have called and instead waited for an invitation, which as we know was never going to come.
Given how obtuse DIL was on the phone with OP, I doubt her husband invited her. He probably mentioned the family tradition and that his sisters were having tea with their father and DIL decided to invite herself.
I find it hard to believe DIL really did not understand she wasn't included for as long as she played dumb and just kept repeating that she is OP's DIL.
I think Son is angry not because his wife has hurt feelings but rather because she got off the phone with OP and threw an angry tantrum.
That wasn't arrogance. She genuinely seemed like she was hoping to be included in the father daughter date, probably because she doesn't have a relationship with her own father.
Well if she keeps being pushy and refusing to accept no for an answer then she probably won't have a great relationship with her FIL, either.
ETA: OP, you're NTA.
The son obviously didn’t help, but when OP has to keep saying she isn’t coming and she just repeats “but I’m your daughter in law” it starts getting rude
Then you need to have a talk with your son. Let him know that relationships can't be forced. The father-daughter dates is a family tradition that was brought into place to make sure the actual father and daughters get to spend time together. Now it's true that his wife is part of the family but she is like she said the daughter in law and not the daughter. So she needs to understand and respect how you feel unless, she has become so close and you have called her or treated her like your own daughter in which case she probably expected to be part of it.
Also, your daughter in law needs to understand the same. She called and asked which is fine but No is a perfectly acceptable answer. She should have backed off when you said it the first time instead of pushing further.
NTA.
Your son should have checked with you before giving her the impression that she was invited.
**Having said that**...
>I told her this is just a thing between me and my daughters. She repeated that she is my daughter in law. This went on for a few time until I told her that she isn’t my kid and that she is not invited.
I can't even IMAGINE how this exchange took place. If you are under the mistaken impression that you are invited to an event, and then gently rebuffed by the person organizing the event, HOW are you going to argue and say that you SHOULD be invited?
Mary, Joseph and Vizzini...the sheer unmitigated gall is truly inconceivable!
> **If you are under the mistaken assumption that you are invited to an event, and then gently rebuffed by the person organizing the event, HOW are you going to argue and say that you SHOULD be invited?**
Took the words straight out my keyboard.
I would have been mildly embarrassed, ended the call and had a talk with my husband.
The most obnoxious person I know may have pushed back once with something like "ah, I consider myself your daughter."
But in *what universe* do you push back **REPEATEDLY** after it's been made clear that your presence is not wanted.
The balls on this woman!
Your reaction is fine here, don't let people say you're an asshole for it but also think about how great of an opportunity this is to invite her to a future date and bring the family closer. Talk with your daughters to see if they would be open to it, it could really be beneficial for everyone. You can smooth things out with her by just letting her know that you had already made plans for this one and you were caught off-guard but you want to include her in the next one.
The only way you would be TA is if your Daughters' invited her. Even then they should have talked to you first. But if the three people going to tea didn't invite her than NTA and who ever told her to invite herself needs to mind their own business.
*without telling anyone*
People invite themselves to things all the time but normally it happens pretty quickly. “Oh you’re going to [xyz], I’d love to go/that sounds great/when are we going” etc. It is rare someone hears about something and just calls another person up and asks for the time. I assume someone else must’ve been privy to her plan to crash beforehand
The amount of people that have shown up uninvited to a party around me because they saw a post on social media is astounding, I wanna live in that world too.
NTA
she and your eldest are obviously hard of understanding!
This is a simple premiss, you have a tea date with your daughters. I am not sure what either of them are missing in that. She is not your daughter.
Does your wife still have Mum Son dates? Perhaps she could explain it to your eldest!
I've read all of your response here, and while you certainly have the right to exclude your DIL, you are being a jerk about it. Go ahead and stick to your guns, there's no real AH here, including your DIL. But don't be surprised when it impacts the relationship with your son, DIL, and any future grandkids over the long term.
I'm the DIL who has never been treated as an equal. I've been with my husband for 26 years, had three kids with him, invited his family for every holiday and milestone event for YEARS, and welcomed them into our home and our lives to the best of my ability. But I still don't qualify as "real" family. So, I stopped trying. My husband's family doesn't see our kids nearly as often as my own parents do anymore because I decided I wasn't going to make the effort for people who always kept me on the outside looking in. And my husband isn't going to make the effort.
So now, they're the ones kept at arms length. If you're cool with that, then you do you. Just don't be surprised or angry or hurt when your dismissive attitude toward your DIL comes back around to bite you.
You’re *not* the same as non-in-laws, though. It’s a totally different relationship and dynamic and should be what it is instead of trying to force it to something else.
26 years is a long time. I don’t think the poster was asking for an instant relationship, but after 5, 10, 15 years, she still gets treated like an acquaintance.
Everyone ends up losing when trying to form a relationship is a one way street. I think that was her primary point.
Who said they wanted to be the same? When you get married, you’re supposedly part of a family. I don’t think anybody here is expecting some sort of instant perfect family scenario, but if the in-laws aren’t going to make an effort, then they shouldn’t be hurt or surprised when they don’t get treated like family in return.
What? What do you mean non-in-laws? OP is talking about his daughter-in-law (DIL) - his son's wife. I'm also a DIL to my husband's parents. It's the same scenario. I'm just looking at it from MUCH further out than his son and DIL.
And as to forcing a relationship, I think as with all things, we have to take OP's version of the story with a large grain of salt. Of course the person writing their version is going to paint the other person in the worst light possible.
They mean your premise that DIL = daughter is flawed and they are not the same and DIL needs to be ok with the fact that some things are between a father and his daughters. Would it be nice to try and bond with DIL, yes, does that mean that he needs to use a tradition that’s been going on for seemingly decades to do so? No there are other ways
They literally say they’re the DIL that’s never been treated as equal. They’re not equal as a DIL is the point
I understand they’d like a better relationship, but they need to understand it’s a different relationship
I'm with you on this. Excluding DIL is how you alienate your children's spouses and potentially even your children and grandchildren. I'll just say that my husband's family does a "girl's weekend" once a year. They invite ALL the women in the family. Grandma, her daughters, her daughters' in law, their daughters, and their daughters' in law. I went this year (I'm a daughter in law of a daughter in law) and it just felt so wonderful to be included in with his family. And because I feel so welcomed in the family, I'm happy to visit them often (majority live about 5-6 hr drive away) with and without my child and I'm happy to let my child visit them without me.
I do think OP is making a mistake not inviting his DIL. And he's going to feel the repercussions of that exclusion in his relationship with his son and maybe even access to his future grandchildren. OP needs to check out the nearly daily posts on some of the parenting subs where a mom is complaining about how she doesn't feel comfortable around her in-laws but they keep badgering her for unrestricted access to her child which pushes her further away from the family. That is OP's future.
OP is allowed to have things he does with just his actual kids. He isn't excluding her from other events.
Not everyone gets invited to every event. Next thing you know she's going to want to go to the sporting events with the Mom/Sons.
I understand your point of view, but being excluded from 1 specific event isn't treating someone like they are not family.
Exactly! They are entitled to continue a long-standing tradition without her. If she wants to have outings like that, she could easily suggest an additional event instead.
You're not the same though. You're not equal to a daughter or son that they raised. You have your own family for that relationship. You are the daughter in law. The son's wife. While some families have a very close relationship between child-in-law and the rest of the family, it's not a given. I'm sorry that you think you deserve it, but your in-laws do not owe you the equal relationship you think they do. People who try to force themselves on others like that are generally disappointed in the outcome.
A daughter in law is not a daughter? Just like a brother is not a husband.
Most people are perfectly capable of having close relationships with their kids spouses. Without seeing their kids spouses as The Same As one of their kids. It’s a different type/category of family member. Just like a kid isn’t a grandkid, and a grandparent isn’t a nephew.
Close and welcoming doesn’t need to be equal. That’s pretty impossible, not even siblings are usually treated equally.
Sounds like your inlaws and your husband failed dismally at the close and welcoming part.
I like my brother in law. I really dislike my sister due to past behavior as an adult. I’d give her a kidney in a minute if she needed one. Him? No, not unless they’d tried donor banks first and exhausted other options. She’s my sister, but he’s not my brother. He’s still family, just not my sibling.
And I’d never intrude on my mom’s occasional outings with my sister. That’s a Them thing. Just like she wouldn’t intrude on mine. Or BIL on either. Some things we do as an extended family group, some things are just for us.
In OPs case, I’d keep the father daughter dates. And do some more general family activities since DIL seems to think she’s not integrated into the family as a member.
Your DIL has no right to attend and it’s totally acceptable that you restrict this to your two daughters. However, your comments on the thread clearly show you don’t view this woman as family… like in any way what so ever. So I hope you’re okay with the fact your relationship with your son is going to be hurt by this in the future as she’s his family now.
Yeah, there doesn’t seem to be any effort to include her whatsoever and that sucks. I’m not saying she has to be invited to father-daughter tea, but maybe make some sort of effort?
Then OP's son is even more of an AH because he knows these dates are for Bio kids only and he riled up his wife. He is trying to interfere in the tradition between his father and his sisters.
Sue attending because she cried and begged won’t make her any more welcome at the outing.
Maybe you two can have your own thing? Grab a tea and a dog walk through the park?
You obviously don't have to invite your DIL. I will say, however, that I had the greatest MIL in the world and one of the reasons is that she immediately included me and her other DIL in most of the girls events that she did with her daughter, like lunches and shopping trips. (Not every time, they also had some mother daughter events alone). Because she accepted me so completely in the family, even though she has now passed, my SIL and I are still incredibly close, actually closer than I am to my bio sister. Our children are as close as siblings and the entire extended family gets along beautifully with no drama.
But the inclusion came from your MiL, I'm guessing you didn't call her and invited yourself.
I agree that OP could sometimes include his DiL, but the fact that she just assumed and invited herself would put me off a little, I have to admit that.
DIL didn’t invite herself, she got put into the situation. And we don’t know how the conversation went. She could have had a back and forth with dad a little bit that OP is saying was excessive but DIL was actually just asking a few times for clarification because she was confused and hurt.
NAH
She called and asked when tea time was, not if she could come. It doesn’t matter if the son told her about it or said she could go, if OP or OPs daughters didn’t extend the invitation to their father-daughter dates, that’s inviting yourself.
She may have been asking “when” because she thought she *was* invited, that’s my point.
She didn’t realize she was essentially inviting herself.
I’m not advocating for barging into other peoples plans.
I would be slightly shocked at someone marginalizing my relationship with the family I married into as well. Jesus yall act like people are robots sometimes
> I told her this is just a thing between me and my daughters. She repeated that she is my daughter in law. This went on for a few time until I told her that she isn’t my kid and that she is not invited.
Agreed, I'd have guessed that they were joking around or something. Imagine being such a snob to your new family member. OP is a total AH.
I was going to say all of this.
As an only child, my in-laws have always gone out of their way to make me feel included. That generosity on their part has paid dividends all around.
That said, OP is NTA. He is free to keep things as they are.
This, 1000x this.
It sounds like in this case there was some miscommunication, but the FIL being so dismissive and mean about how she was definitely not invited really sets the tone. Nobody suffers when you build a longer table and open your arms to love more. He had an opportunity to be inclusive and chose to be rude and dismissive instead. It could be a great moment of family-building, but he chose bridge burning instead. He has ever right to want to be with his bio daughters alone, but this could have been a great opportunity for all of them. I hope when I'm in this position, I'm more like your MIL, and I hope all of us have in-laws more like yours.
Others have made valid points about how she just invited herself (though I wonder if someone else gave her the impression she was invited). But I couldn't help but be a bit shocked by how OP treated DIL. I have two sisters-in-law that have always been accepted as one of us. They are more sister to me than SIL. And I give credit to my mother for most of that. She has always treated them as family, and the rest of us followed suit. She would have never acted toward them the way OP is. That girl is family now!
My **wife** laughed when I told her and basically said that was ridiculous.
I haven’t informed my two daughters, I probably should. I’ll give them a text before they hear about it from someone else
Edit to make it clear who laughed hopefully bolding it helps.
Laughing and calling your daughter in law ridiculous seems like a mean reaction to be honest.
I’m not saying you should include her on this outing, not if it’s something special you and your daughters do together and you don’t want to change that. I understand that.
But at the end of the day, isn’t this just your daughter in law saying she wants to spend time with you? Isn’t that a nice thing? Why be so mean and laugh at her for it? Why not say, “Sorry, Susie, this is something just my girls and I do for one on one time. But if you’d like we can plan something different together.”
He’s very much acting like they don’t accept or see her as family. Totally ok to have ur own moments with ur children etc i wouldn’t have invited her to tea either. I wonder if she just feels left out a lot, maybe the only in law in the family so far. He mentions quite a few times that it’s just for HIS kids or the SIBLINGS ONLY and then they get off the phone and make fun of her?
You can accept someone as family without putting them in the exact same place in the family as your own children. It’s ok to have a different relationship with different parts of your family but still love them. You can love your nieces and nephews differently than your own kids. It’s a similar thing with your children’s spouses.
Just because you’re not the exact same as their own kids doesn’t mean you aren’t family. It just means your relationship is different.
Yeah I mean she is showing that she wants to be part of the family. A more logical fair thing to do would have been to explain "This is a tradition I've had with them for decades and I don't want to change it. However, maybe we can schedule something with the four of us soon!"
Like everyone can have what they want here.
Woah woah, cool it with that emotional and relational maturity nonsense. You might make people realize they have responsibility and agency in their emotions and relationships they have and want to have.
This exactly! OP isn't the AH for wanting his time with his biological children unchanged, but he IS the AH for how he talked to his DIL and went about it.
Where did he go wrong about it? He didn't call her out of her name, just explained this was for his daughters and him
Just because she ended up upset does not indicate HE went about it wrong, that's just looking for someone to blame and choosing the wrong one.
I hope when the grandkids come, your dil laughs and thinks it’s ridiculous you all feel entitled to know the name, gender, be at the hospital, visit, get pictures.
You are both mean girls.
He’s NTA for this specific event in the post, but he is TA for all his comments. I’m seriously glad these people aren’t my in-laws. My in laws accepted me as family immediately and I love them for that.
I’m imagining most of these commenters aren’t married, because feeling accepted by your spouses family is kind of a big deal. I would not be surprised if he loses his relationship with his actual son over how it appears his family treats their DIL.
Ok well… now I think YTA, mocking her behind her back and being a jerk about it, there’s no need. Clearly someone told her about the event and got her excited to spend time with her sisters and father in law,
But wow that was a mistake on her part to think she’s a part of the family now.
Is this something the DIL came up with on her own or was she prompted by your son? It does seem kind of weird.
I probably would have asked the daughters before rejecting but making it clear that you wouldn’t tell her you talked to them.
Its very family specific. My Mom does stuff with my sisters (we are all adults if that matters) and she does invite mine and my brother’s wives. However, we don’t live close so its not all the time. Also, its an all girl dynamic that might make it different.
I don’t think you are wrong for saying no though. NTA.
I’m assuming my son, since I don’t know how she would even know about it if it wasn’t him. I know my two girls are not close to her so they didn’t invite her. It was in the kids group chat so she saw it there or he told her
The kids groups chat doesn’t include her, it’s just the kids. My sons siblings. If she read it over his shoulder or was in his phone yes she could have seen it
No wonder she doesn’t feel like part of the family, yall are mean as hell!
Don’t be surprised if your son doesn’t wanna be around you as much when you so easily disregard his wife.
That's all I needed to see. YTA and so is your wife. It's hard being married into a family. Being completely othered like this, she will never feel welcome again. Its possible that she didn't take the rejection well or didn't understand your weird need to tell her she's not your daughter, but you should absolutely have been mature enough to recognize your family reaching out to forge a real bond. This will never be forgotten, and you have either irreparably damaged your relationship with your son or his marriage.
I mean like... no, you don't have to include her on the tea thing but goddamn, she was clearly looking forward to spending time with you. You don't have to completely shove her away either, couldn't you arrange a separate event or something?
I’ll be honest, it’s ok not to invite her. After the miscommunication (someone told her about it) and hearing how upset she is I don’t get why you wouldn’t include her this once, or do something extra with all of you another time.
The idea that it’s funny doesn’t make sense to me. What’s so funny? Seriously I don’t understand why it’s so ridiculous here to want to spend time with your IL. Can you explain why the reaction here is to laugh?
Because they clearly think it's funny that she would even consider that they might have invited her to something that isn't a major holiday. They shouldn't be surprised when they stop showing up to that stuff too.
Damn y'all really don't like your DIL. YTA for not sucking it up and letting her come this one time, you're all adults. Holidays must be miserable for her with people like you.
Do you really think it would’ve been one time? That she wouldn’t have thought she could go to all of them going forward? It’s ok to want time with your children without your in-laws.
Y’all gonna learn the hard way that the DIL controls the amount of visitation of any grandkids. Who do you think tends to push sons to keep in touch, buys the gifts for the family, etc. The wife. Sons do not visit their parents often in the nursing homes either, unless a wife is involved
This entire thread is filled with people who do not understand that actions have consequences that may not manifest right away. The DIL was clearly trying to reach out and be a part of the family. OP slammed the door in her face.
OP even made it abundantly clear that they will never see DIL as part of the family in the comments. If that's the attitude they want to take with her, they're within their rights but it's shitty and it will have consequences on the relationship between OP, OP's Son, the DIL and any potential kids they have.
I read posts like this and it makes me so happy that I'm lucky enough to have in-laws that have gone above and beyond to make me feel a part of the family.
By the tone of your responses here, I don’t think Sue is missing out all that much on bonding with her FIL as you seem to be a spiteful old man who finds it funny she was embarrassed she wasn’t included. This is a sure fire way to alienate your son and his new family from any future events; and good luck ever seeing the grandchildren they give you.
YTA - Above you said, "*I know my two girls are not close to her so they didn’t invite her*." But if you haven't informed them, you cannot possibly know if they invited the DIL. Truth is, you don't like her and would never invite her so you are assuming they would never invite her either. You're the ass. I hope the son and DIL just exclude you from the rest of their lives. No one needs your negative energy in their lives.
I was on your side til this response. You have every right to not invite her to your private lunch. But laughing at her and calling her ridiculous makes YTA
Why is it ridiculous though? Is it really that big of a deal to tag along one time? Someone clearly told her about it. Why do you guys have against her that you’re response was “ew you’re not my daughter I only date my daughters”?
ESH-
Don't laugh at your daughter in law* that's just mean and dismissive and she obviously already felt like she wasn't being included
What did your son even tell her, since that seems the most likely place she got the info (and the idea that she was invited)
Also, dil is presumably a legal adult and could have been more tactful, like "hey sorry if this is out of line - [son] told me about the dad-daughter tea. It sounds lovely, but I'm a little unclear if I am included since I married in, so I thought I'd just go straight to the guy in charge! If I missed an invitation, please just let me know when to show up, and if I misunderstood, I hope you have a great time, and I'd love to meet you and the sisters for lunch some other time!"
*Edit for clarity/dudes who want to nitpick: his response was blunt to the point of mean the way he described it, but *he* didn't laugh at her, according to his comments his WIFE laughed at DIL for feeling like she should have been included, so I'd like to add op's wife to the list of people who suck here, because that's still mean even if DIL was presumptuous and not misled by her husband.
Best reply so far. I also think that you hit the nail on the head with the final part of your comment. If DIL had asked that way she'd likely have gotten a different answer than a straight up rejection.
Based on this guy's other replies, she still would've been rejected. The family does not seem to care for DIL, whether it's warranted or not is up for debate
Yeah, he hadn't commented that many times by the time I replied, he's just digging his own grave on that relationship. In a year, hes going to be like "my son never talks to me and it's all because my dil is too sensitive"
I can't wait to see the post 5 years from now about how only one of his kids has grandkids, but they aren't able to see them because that DIL is SO MEAN.
Correct. Just because OP has no obligation to invite her doesn't mean he has to be an asshole about it. DIL is wrong is barging into the situation but there's no reason to be impolite to her.
YTA for how you handled it. You referred to it as her demanding, but I don’t see that in what you typed. You could have explained this is a tradition with just your daughters to keep in touch with them and your wife does the same with the sons - like you explained it to us. Instead you told her she isn’t your kid. You’ve now laid the ground work for your future relationship with your DIL. She isn’t your kid so she owes you absolutely nothing that most kids would do for a parents. And newsflash for you - the wives do most of the family relationship maintenance. Gifts at birthdays and holidays, favors, planning events - you should get NOTHING from this woman ever again. From the sounds of it you probably can’t expect much from your son either. Yes, you were right in that she doesn’t need to be included, but you totally screwed the delivery.
THIS EXACTLY.
My partner's mom scorned me once (1). Her blatant disrespect for my relationship to her child and her treatment of me as some sort of weird druggie that [my partner] dragged off the street means she's literally never going to see her grandkids, our wedding, etc.
Want to make it clear we're not family? Cool. I'm not including you in my family events, get fucked.
My mom had the audacity to say she thought my wife was lazy once. For context this was when her grandchild was 3 months old and my wife needed a bit of my help.
We didn't talk to my mom for like 3 years after that. I hope OP enjoys being shunned as much as he enjoys shunning.
I agree with you. When I was with my ex I was only able to go out to eat with every body if he went or his brother invited me. His mom and his sister just dealt with it, they didn’t like me too much (his sister hated me, his mom just didn’t like that her favorite son had another woman in his life beside her) I had no siblings and no relationship with my mom because she was always working. Only my dad was around a lot so I just wanted a mom and sister to bond with, however I did get brother time with my ex’s brother and that’s something I’ll never forget
Flash forward a year from that- I am now married and my husbands family is wonderful, they have zero daughters so me and the other DiL are the mom and dads daughters and both of us are very welcome to everything. Even DH’s step mom views me as an extra daughter. We live 3 hours away from them but visit constantly and everyone is loved and included and it is all I could’ve ever wanted.
I wanna say YTA, DiL probably just wanted to be part of the family and wanted to bond. And the dad and mom clearly have no interest in her and they laughed at it which just makes it worse. And u/sharethewine is absolutely right, it is the women that do the gift getting and planning, that’s how it is in my husbands family and hell if they try to go to him for planning he tells them to ask me or they just go straight to me for it all
> I wanna say YTA, DiL probably just wanted to be part of the family and wanted to bond.
Definitely. The top answers full of NTA here reaffirmed my belief that this sub is full of sociopaths who lack the capacities to discern complex situations.
The DIL reached out and they laughed at her. Congratulations, you just made your son's marriage way more difficult than it has to be, so just you can keep your tea party exclusive. If the whole point of those dates were to spend more time, why not spend more time with your DIL as well?
Agreed. Over tea. It ain't like she invited herself on a luxury cruise line around the world. It's tea. Congrats, ostracized your son's partner for life over tea.
Tea bruh. Tea. Recent years really did scramble peoples brains for inclusion and compassion.
Fucking tea.
Sorry buddy, but YTA. Hear me out.
From your replies to comments, even a blind person could see how much you dislike your DIL. You vehemently dislike her and your disdain just drips off every word. I'm sure she knows you don't like her. It's sad. I was the DIL my in laws didn't like, and I can empathize with what your DIL is feeling.
Are you required to involve her in your little family traditions? No. Not in the slightest. And you're not TA for not inviting her. You want this to be some special bonding time with your adult daughters because you were (and let's admit it, are) probably an emotionally unavailable dad. You don't seem to be in contact with feeling like empathy, kindness, generosity, or basic decency because otherwise you would have either offered an invitation to her or you would have been kinder in how you put up your boundary.
Putting up a boundary like not wanting her to come because you just want your biological family there is reasonable and understandable. Saying what you did, and how you said it was unnecessarily cruel. I'd bet my 11th toe you were cruel on purpose so she never has the audacity to think she's welcome in your family ever again let alone in the first place.
And buddy, who counts how many hours they've spent with in laws or "found family" (whatever tf that is)? 75 hours? My god man, I have cousins who I know I haven't spent that much time around and I still love them dearly and treat them with kindness. It's not that hard. It's 2023. Get some empathy, get some therapy, and get over yourself. Jfc.
100%. He also says in his comments that they laughed at her and yet all the other comments are berating her for “inviting herself and throwing a fit about hearing no.” And it’s like… wouldn’t your feelings be hurt if your husband told you you were invited to something and when you asked about it, they laughed at you and said you weren’t family? That’s so humiliating. I’d literally never show up to anything with them ever again.
Honestly the way it's reading to me is OP is an unreliable narrator. Like there is high potential here for him to be exaggerating her response in order to make himself look better.
> inviting herself and throwing a fit about hearing no
I also severely doubt it played out like this in the first place. It kinda sounds like the DIL has become the proverbial whipping post for OPs family for whatever reason.
I’m so glad someone said it. I forget sometimes outside of parent Reddit that many many redditors are entitled socially inept brats who have such a piss poor attitude about interpersonal relationships. This man clearly can’t stand his DIL.
My dad would invite my brothers wife and I’d be pissed if he didn’t, and my father-in-law would forget to invite one of his own daughters before he ever left me out. I can’t begin to understand this dynamic.
Nice response, I was getting really disheartened about all the NTA's about.
This sh*t has a funny way of working both ways, hope OP remembers that if/when it comes to grand children and the like. He will get what he gives.
This is my favorite response.
This comment section is filled with "you don't owe anyone anything" energy. Yeah, the DIL inviting herself was dumb but that doesn't mean everyone should immediately dogpile on her and act like the dad did nothing wrong.
Kindness goes a long way. He could have easily said this is a special tradition between his two daughters but would love to create a new opportunity to get to know her better and plan a different activity together. Or he can find a way to incorporate her into a future one.
YTA ruling from me too
NTA - there's a difference between keeping something between you and your daughters and "not welcoming her to the family". Those dates were set up so you could spend time with your kids, not her. There is no reason that she would be going. I'm not sure if it's entitlement or what, but I never expected my FIL to treat me the same as his actual daughter.
NTA.
I would never call my FIL and demand something like this. What they do in their free time together is their business not mine. If I wanna do something like this also, I politely ask.
I feel sorry for Sue. You say she is a nice girl and it sounds like for some reason she thought she was included in this event as part of the family, (group post? invite or info from her husband?). IDK how you actually handled the conversation but you make it sound as if you were quite blunt whereas perhaps you could have handled the situation better. I imagine she feels rejected, embarrassed, and family relationships will suffer because of what appears to be a lack of tact on your part. If this is the case, YTA.
Edit to add... I can understand you wanting to see just your daughters, but it is possible to explain that with tact and grace.
His reaction was really rude and would not fly in my family. We treat spouses like members of the family because they are.
YTA, OP and far too many people are letting him off the hook. Why not try to build a bridge instead of being rude.
I agree with you. It sounds to me like she was told she was invited and wasn’t trying to invite herself. OP’s laughing and bluntness honestly borders on cruel. She probably feels very vulnerable just joining the family and trying to find her place in it.
YTA. Great way to alienate your DIL. Harsh & rude response to new comer making the effort.
Not enough time to have a new tradition? Of course still do the tea with bio daughters.
A thoughtful person’s response might be “great idea for all of us to get together. Why don’t you set it up. I’m still doing the traditional father/daughter tea, but we can start an additional tea tradition for the four of us.”
Then your eldest knew the precedent did not include in-law children. This is on him. Plus, it is rude to invite people to an event when you are not the host or have explicit permission from the host. It is even more rude to invite yourself. They are wrong.
It's funny how most of these issues crop up from a lack of communication - this blame falls solely on your son if he's responsible for this small issue.
ESH
You suck for not being more tactful and trying to find out who made her believe she was invited.
She sucks for not backing down immediately and going straight back to the person who made her believe that she was invited.
Whoever made her believe that she was invited sucks for not talking to you first.
However, if you wish to be a part of the lives of any grandchildren from her, you need to step back and get to the bottom of this and learn to be kinder when faced with something like this, especially if YOUR son is causing this triangulation.
Seriously, your DIL literally wanted to go and have tea with her FIL and SIL’s and instead of being kind and inclusive and getting to know her without your son around you…. Mocked her, made her feel stupid and made her cry? You don’t think that whatever this miscommunication was, you couldn’t have seen any positive to having her come along just once? So small-minded, and I doubt this is the first time she’s been treated like this in your family.
*Add after reading update* - This is so sad, she said outright she just wants to spend time with your daughters, and - after she’s been laughed at by her husbands family and AH’s online - she’s expected to ask your daughters to spend time with her? I mean, perhaps THEY could ask HER? And then she asks if she’s still allowed to attend a family dinner? There’s something really wrong here. Just show a bit of kindness FFS.
Eh NTA i guess but based on your comments you guys seem to have a strange (to me at least) family dynamic. Why are you so adamant that she’s not your kid? You almost seem angry that someone married into the family. My parents always tried to include my wife in sibling and family thing even before we were married and now love that she calls them mom and dad. Only seeing her on holidays is odd too if your wife and son have mother-son outings regularly and you have father-daughter outings, do you just not see your son?
The son is the a-hole here and the daughter-in-law is out of her head. If your son did invite her then he should have talked to you about it first so that you could have told him no that's not how this works. If she just assumed it's because she's nutso. Does op's son want all his brother-in-laws to show up on mom/son day? I mean op' has a few daughters so that's going to likely happen if we don't set the boundary.
And I love that the daughter-in-law argued with the father (who is the host of the event) that she should be there? how rude is that? If my wife told me "hey you're invited to a family event" and I asked the family about it and they said oh sorry you're not invited". I'd be like " oh I'm sorry for the mix-up have a good day." I certainly wouldn't argue with them that I should be there. Wtf?
NTA.
INFO: are these dates more for you or for your daughters? It sounds like the oldest invited your DIL, probably as a gesture of good will and an opportunity to make her feel like part of the family. If your daughters wanted her there then you come off as at best a bit dense, and at worse needlessly cruel and uncompromising.
ETA: apologies, I must have missed the bit where it was her husband that invited her. I was thinking your oldest DAUGHTER invited her. NTA, but it does sound like your DIL would like to have more of a relationship with you and yours, so that might be worth considering for the future.
The oldest, as in, the son was inviting her, which is kind of weird since he isn't invited.
If one of the daughters invited her it would be different, but I don't think that's the case
I wonder what a daughter in law is to you. It a cultural thing. In my family all daughters in law are like daughters. Part of the family. they get included.
YTA. What is with all the posts lately that say "i treat my kid in law like crap and alienate them from the family, aita?
Ya'll are the reason evil parent in-law stereotypes exist.
YTA, It would’ve been gracious to include her this time so as not to embarrass her or make her feel unwelcome.
You could’ve enjoyed the tea with your daughters and daughter in law and also scheduled another time to spend with your daughters with the understanding that only your daughters would be going.
There was clearly a misunderstanding about her being invited and your response was hurtful.
If for some reason you really couldn’t include her for tea the proper response would be, “I’m so sorry we aren’t able to have you at tea this time, let’s plan to get lunch together with my daughters next month, thanks so much for understanding, I’m so looking forward to seeing you all together for lunch.”
Your response was rude. Your daughter in law clearly wants to get to know you and your family better and you only damage your overall family unit, not to mention, your relationship with your son, by being unable to respond calmly and kindly.
Unpopular opinion, YTA. She wanted you to be her dad and you rejected her.
Maybe she has her own dad; maybe she doesn’t. Maybe they have a good relationship; maybe they don’t. But she wanted to come be your daughter at daddy daughter day. It wasn’t a lavish vacation or something, it was tea. And you were like, “No, why would I want you?”
NTA
It's a daughter-father thing.
You son should have stopped his wife himself.
>I told her this is just a thing between me and my daughters. She repeated that she is my daughter in law
Why did she insist? No is no.
>not welcoming her into the family.
You see her at family events so she is already welcomed.
You did nothing wrong and don't give a sh\*t to guilt trip.
Take care
NTA and reason is because if i was her I wouldn't have asked. If I was wanted somewhere I'd get an invite. If she felt a bit left out then she should have spoken to your son first and he could have spoken with you. The other question is how your daughters felt about her being invited. In my head sometimes things in the family should just be seperated depending on occasions.
Maybe this is a cultural thing, but when people marry into my family, they’re embraced as fully part of the family. All of my aunts or my grandma’s daughters simply because they married my uncles. My sister in law is my sister, which is exciting because I’ve always wanted a sister.
Idk, but this makes me feel like YTA. If anything you could’ve handled this with more class, instead you basically treated her like she’s nothing other than your son’s wife and you have no interest in getting to know her.
NTA- why would she assume that she would be invited to this? LOL...
That lunch is for quality time with your daughters- not your sons, your son's wife, your extended family, etc.... doesn't mean she isn't family, but this is something special for just you and your daughters.
NTA
I get that she wants to be a part of the family tradition, but this is something special you do with just your daughters. Perhaps take your son and DIL out for a nice dinner for time to time, but she can't invite herself to this. That's not how it works.
INFO. How did she hear about this? Was it your son? Did one of your daughters tell her about it.
She’s not entitled to attend of course but your reaction to this leaves is pretty ducking poor. She’s family now whether you view her that way or not. Treat her like she’s some interloper and it’s just going to push your son away from you in the future. I feel there was a lot of better ways to handle this.
YTA
Wtf, I seriously don't get all of these responses.
*You're family now*. And while that means different things to different people, clearly to *your son and your DIL* it's pretty meaningful that she be accepted into the family like blood- or at least the effort is made to do so.
That's not unreasonable. That is the type of family I have (my mother welcomed all her sons and daughters IL in as if they were her own kids. BiLs and SiLs are all close as can be. All our kids are considered cousins, whether by blood or marriage.
And maybe that's not what you want... But holy shit man, how can you have no empathy for people who feel differently about it? *Your wife laughed because your son's wife wants to be included in close family activities?* you're ridiculing her for wanting to have a closer relationship with her husband's dad?
Seriously man. I thank God I don't have in-laws like that.
I get that you value these tea times with your daughters. But I absolutely encourage you to open them to her. And if not, which is understandable, you should be looking to create something that will say to her "look, I need this to be for me and my kids, but let's start something new just as close that we can all be a part of and have some close times together". But don't have any illusions that this won't hurt her.
I am curious, what does your daughter-in-law call you? If you have her call you Dad, she might have taken it as a sign that she had the same rights as your daughters.
I think this could be handled a little more kindly. You absolutely have the right to alone time with your daughters but something is going on with DIL where she wants to feel included too. Maybe she doesn't have a close relationship with her own family, her parents are gone, she is not feeling secure in her place in your family, etc. I would take this as a sign something is up with DIL. Another poster recommended taking her and your son out to dinner. What about something like that to start your own, new tradition? You only help your relationship with your son if you show some kindness to her.
Which one of your kids invited her? You know, the kids you raised. My guess is she was given the impression she was invited.
You certainly don’t play the long game, or waste a minute on diplomacy. Congratulations?
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INFO: Who invited her? She obviously was told by someone. No one overhears a conversation and just invites themselves to things without telling anyone. Given she called and asked what time tea was, someone must’ve told her she could go. Whoever said person was should’ve communicated with you, but I’m interested to know if it was one of your daughters.
Idk, it wasn’t me. I checked with the girls so it wasn’t them. I messaged my oldest and he hasn’t responded yet but probably him. Edit: according to him he mentioned it. Also my daughter reached out to him asking why he invited her. He is claiming he didn’t and just mentioned it. We are going to have a full conversation with him in a bit.
Your son needs to start minding his own business
He probably just mentioned it from how OP is phrasing it and the DIL did the rest. Son should defend Dad tho
Doesn't seem like the son is doing that if he's calling his dad a jerk. Sounds like the son loves drama more so than the DIL.
Eh DIL could have exaggerated the conversation to son so dad looks like the bad guy. Sounds like the type to do that if she’s the type to invite herself to events.
I agree! I Personally remember someone just like her who I use to work with, I was talking to another colleague who was talking about his birthday party places and she walks in the room hears what we were talking about and the proceeds to invite herself asking for the time and date. I was in complete shock and he looked just as shocked and confused. People think that really annoys me.
This type of behavior is so wild to me! I'm waaaay on the other end of the spectrum and practically require an explicit invitation or else I feel like I'm crashing something. I don't think my way is necessarily normal or right, but I just can't fathom operating with such social confidence at all times
I knew a guy who fully tried to invite himself to my wedding. I was like, no I’ve known you 3 months. It got to the point he was borderline harassing me, calling me, promising me a nice gift, it was incredibly weird.
> Sounds like the son loves drama more so than the DIL. This is why nobody should take relationship advice from reddit, and definitely not from this anyone that frequents this sub. What a ridiculous thing to say. Everyone here is just looking for drama and to judge random strangers.
Love this sub honestly. A wife tells a story: "Your husband should always have your back, stand up against his parents for you, and always be ready to cut all contact with them". A father tells a story: "Your son should always stand up to his wife, put her in her place and refuse to entertain her drama". It highlights how useless the sub, but damn is it entertaining to see all those horrible takes written by teenagers with no life experience lol
Humans are social creatures! We're hardwired to want to take the side of the person having a conversation with us over a total stranger. Unless we've decided the person talking to us can't be trusted, in which case we'll take everything they say in the worst possible way. This subreddit is a great case study in those behaviors but it's certainly not the only place they're seen. If anything, it's a great reminder to be aware of our own biases.
What a giant fucking leap that was
No, DIL needs to stop inviting herself to events she heard about.
Actually I’m a bit sad for your DIL not because you don’t accept her but because somebody told her that she could come and that it was important for her. I understand why you refused but I also see how she could be sad about it because it was clearly important for her. The person who told her about it and invited her without checking with you is the true asshole, not you and not her imo.
Seems she kept arguing, if she had been oh it must have been a misunderstanding then she wouldn't have been.
She probably had it in her head that she was invited and was just figuring out where and when to show up. When she was told that she wasn't invited, she was likely shocked and hurt. She probably wasn't at her sharpest when she responded, as most people don't keep their composure in this situation. I vote for NAH.
Same. I'd be awkward as hell if I found out I wasn't actually being included after being told I was. Especially if my husband said something like, well since you're a daughter in law now, you can go to these daughter lunches. Then reaching out to get details. I'd absolutely sound like an awkward idiot stumbling my words to end the phone call. OP, nta but if you want to have a relationship with any future grandchildren or continue having that bond with your son, maybe find something else yall can do to build a bond. His wife is his primary family now, if you want them around, connections need to be built. It sounds like she was trying with reaching out, although awkwardly.
Is she the only child in-law? I could see how it puts her in a really awkward spot as the only "outsider," the only *family* without the unearnable privileges of simply being born into the family, thd only one not invited out with either parent. Doesn't sound like the dad is really trying elsewhere to make her part of the family, just exclude her. Would it hurt to have included her this time? Then plan something else maybe with just the daughters? The dad doesn't have to include her in a daughter event but needs to balance it by clearly reaching out and welcoming her in other ways. If OP insists on not inviting her, he needs to have more to say. Like at least point out he values her as another part of the family. Hopefully say, "But I'd love to spend time with you and your husband." Just drawing hard lines and emphasizing exclusion will push her away, and like the poster above said, *probably the son too.* If she's like me (who I might add, as the woman comes up with the ideas and plans to invite the in-laws over), *she'll get it loud and clear, and start living like she's not your family more thoroughly than you probably anticipated.* Who knows what that will mean for the son and grandkids.
This was my thought. While I definitely don’t think everyone needs to be invited to everything, reading the post, my initial reaction was to wonder how often DIL gets left out of ‘family’ things. And if she’s the only one always left out, there’s a point where that goes beyond ‘tradition’.
Yeah, She’s not a birth daughter but she’s part of the family now and if you guys get along as already stated I don’t get the harm in inviting her. Could’ve been a beautiful bonding experience
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If she would have said "Hey, I heard this was going on, and I was hoping I would be able to join you, would that be okay?" then maybe it would have been a different outcome.
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Only if his girls were okay with it. If my dad had invited my SIL, I would have pitched a fit and not gone. In laws don't have to be involved in everything.
For Ops edit, the girls were NOT ok with it.
I honestly didn't think they would be.
Yes but shes still not his daughter. I get on very well with my FIL, he even calls me son every now and then. But as fond as i am of him i understand that i am not his actual son
My FIL has had a yearly fishing trip that he invites all the men in HIS family to. My wife (gf at the time) mentioned that I should go as we had lived together for 5 years at this point... I had not been invited by my FIL, so I let her know that if HE texts, or calls me to invite me that I would obviously accept but that calling to get an invitation is rude and just showing up is doubly rude. My FIL did invite me the following year and it has been a great way to integrate into her family and their traditions... I can't imagine I'd have any relationship at all with my FIL if I had just called and asked for an invitation like the DIL in this story did. Familial relationships are the stickiest realm for a partner to navigate, as such the DIL shouldn't have called and instead waited for an invitation, which as we know was never going to come.
Given how obtuse DIL was on the phone with OP, I doubt her husband invited her. He probably mentioned the family tradition and that his sisters were having tea with their father and DIL decided to invite herself. I find it hard to believe DIL really did not understand she wasn't included for as long as she played dumb and just kept repeating that she is OP's DIL. I think Son is angry not because his wife has hurt feelings but rather because she got off the phone with OP and threw an angry tantrum.
NTA because she wasn’t invited. That’s a decision for you and your daughter’s to make. Not your son.
I feel a bit bad for Sue- sounds like she *thought* she was invited because idiot son told her so
If I thought I was invited, but was told that it was something he did with just his daughters, I wouldn't continue pushing the issue.
True, she sounds a bit dense or arrogant
That wasn't arrogance. She genuinely seemed like she was hoping to be included in the father daughter date, probably because she doesn't have a relationship with her own father.
Well if she keeps being pushy and refusing to accept no for an answer then she probably won't have a great relationship with her FIL, either. ETA: OP, you're NTA.
The son obviously didn’t help, but when OP has to keep saying she isn’t coming and she just repeats “but I’m your daughter in law” it starts getting rude
Why not both?
In my experience, they do often go hand in hand.
Yeah, she's largely nta as well, but she reaaaally pushed it. She's flagged for future nonsense imo.
flagged for future nonsense made me giggle
Totally agree. Son stepped way out of line inviting his wife to an event for his father and sisters. OP NTA.
Then you need to have a talk with your son. Let him know that relationships can't be forced. The father-daughter dates is a family tradition that was brought into place to make sure the actual father and daughters get to spend time together. Now it's true that his wife is part of the family but she is like she said the daughter in law and not the daughter. So she needs to understand and respect how you feel unless, she has become so close and you have called her or treated her like your own daughter in which case she probably expected to be part of it. Also, your daughter in law needs to understand the same. She called and asked which is fine but No is a perfectly acceptable answer. She should have backed off when you said it the first time instead of pushing further. NTA.
NTA then, your son isn’t even invited so I don’t know why he would think he has a +1 🤣
Boy math
Take my poor woman’s gold: 🏆
Your son should have checked with you before giving her the impression that she was invited. **Having said that**... >I told her this is just a thing between me and my daughters. She repeated that she is my daughter in law. This went on for a few time until I told her that she isn’t my kid and that she is not invited. I can't even IMAGINE how this exchange took place. If you are under the mistaken impression that you are invited to an event, and then gently rebuffed by the person organizing the event, HOW are you going to argue and say that you SHOULD be invited? Mary, Joseph and Vizzini...the sheer unmitigated gall is truly inconceivable!
> **If you are under the mistaken assumption that you are invited to an event, and then gently rebuffed by the person organizing the event, HOW are you going to argue and say that you SHOULD be invited?** Took the words straight out my keyboard. I would have been mildly embarrassed, ended the call and had a talk with my husband. The most obnoxious person I know may have pushed back once with something like "ah, I consider myself your daughter." But in *what universe* do you push back **REPEATEDLY** after it's been made clear that your presence is not wanted. The balls on this woman!
Your reaction is fine here, don't let people say you're an asshole for it but also think about how great of an opportunity this is to invite her to a future date and bring the family closer. Talk with your daughters to see if they would be open to it, it could really be beneficial for everyone. You can smooth things out with her by just letting her know that you had already made plans for this one and you were caught off-guard but you want to include her in the next one.
Well, the good news is that she probably will never want to come again (to this or any of their other family events).
The only way you would be TA is if your Daughters' invited her. Even then they should have talked to you first. But if the three people going to tea didn't invite her than NTA and who ever told her to invite herself needs to mind their own business.
> No one overhears a conversation and just invites themselves to things without telling anyone. It must be nice living in such a world...
*without telling anyone* People invite themselves to things all the time but normally it happens pretty quickly. “Oh you’re going to [xyz], I’d love to go/that sounds great/when are we going” etc. It is rare someone hears about something and just calls another person up and asks for the time. I assume someone else must’ve been privy to her plan to crash beforehand
The amount of people that have shown up uninvited to a party around me because they saw a post on social media is astounding, I wanna live in that world too.
Oh you sweet little innocent person. Pushy people invite themselves to things all the time.
I’m thinking it was the son who told her who heard from his sisters.
NTA she and your eldest are obviously hard of understanding! This is a simple premiss, you have a tea date with your daughters. I am not sure what either of them are missing in that. She is not your daughter. Does your wife still have Mum Son dates? Perhaps she could explain it to your eldest!
They still have mom-son dates it’s usually to a sport event. I think my eldest is upset since I made Sue cry according to him. I wasn’t welcoming.
Crying doesn’t make a person right. She’s gotta learn this is a daughter/father thing and not for her and you didn’t raise her.
you told her several times before she got the message. Her crying is not down to you
I've read all of your response here, and while you certainly have the right to exclude your DIL, you are being a jerk about it. Go ahead and stick to your guns, there's no real AH here, including your DIL. But don't be surprised when it impacts the relationship with your son, DIL, and any future grandkids over the long term. I'm the DIL who has never been treated as an equal. I've been with my husband for 26 years, had three kids with him, invited his family for every holiday and milestone event for YEARS, and welcomed them into our home and our lives to the best of my ability. But I still don't qualify as "real" family. So, I stopped trying. My husband's family doesn't see our kids nearly as often as my own parents do anymore because I decided I wasn't going to make the effort for people who always kept me on the outside looking in. And my husband isn't going to make the effort. So now, they're the ones kept at arms length. If you're cool with that, then you do you. Just don't be surprised or angry or hurt when your dismissive attitude toward your DIL comes back around to bite you.
You’re *not* the same as non-in-laws, though. It’s a totally different relationship and dynamic and should be what it is instead of trying to force it to something else.
26 years is a long time. I don’t think the poster was asking for an instant relationship, but after 5, 10, 15 years, she still gets treated like an acquaintance. Everyone ends up losing when trying to form a relationship is a one way street. I think that was her primary point.
Who said they wanted to be the same? When you get married, you’re supposedly part of a family. I don’t think anybody here is expecting some sort of instant perfect family scenario, but if the in-laws aren’t going to make an effort, then they shouldn’t be hurt or surprised when they don’t get treated like family in return.
> Who said they wanted to be the same? >I'm the DIL who has never been treated as an equal.
being treated as an equal and a member of the family doesn't mean receiving the *exact* same treatment....
What? What do you mean non-in-laws? OP is talking about his daughter-in-law (DIL) - his son's wife. I'm also a DIL to my husband's parents. It's the same scenario. I'm just looking at it from MUCH further out than his son and DIL. And as to forcing a relationship, I think as with all things, we have to take OP's version of the story with a large grain of salt. Of course the person writing their version is going to paint the other person in the worst light possible.
They mean your premise that DIL = daughter is flawed and they are not the same and DIL needs to be ok with the fact that some things are between a father and his daughters. Would it be nice to try and bond with DIL, yes, does that mean that he needs to use a tradition that’s been going on for seemingly decades to do so? No there are other ways
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They literally say they’re the DIL that’s never been treated as equal. They’re not equal as a DIL is the point I understand they’d like a better relationship, but they need to understand it’s a different relationship
I'm with you on this. Excluding DIL is how you alienate your children's spouses and potentially even your children and grandchildren. I'll just say that my husband's family does a "girl's weekend" once a year. They invite ALL the women in the family. Grandma, her daughters, her daughters' in law, their daughters, and their daughters' in law. I went this year (I'm a daughter in law of a daughter in law) and it just felt so wonderful to be included in with his family. And because I feel so welcomed in the family, I'm happy to visit them often (majority live about 5-6 hr drive away) with and without my child and I'm happy to let my child visit them without me. I do think OP is making a mistake not inviting his DIL. And he's going to feel the repercussions of that exclusion in his relationship with his son and maybe even access to his future grandchildren. OP needs to check out the nearly daily posts on some of the parenting subs where a mom is complaining about how she doesn't feel comfortable around her in-laws but they keep badgering her for unrestricted access to her child which pushes her further away from the family. That is OP's future.
It's not excluding someone if you have a tradition with someone else that they've never been party to.
This is a father daughter meetup. Not a women of the family meet up. There is a very big difference.
Heck, the first time I met my husbands family, they invited me to a baby shower (without my husband since he was traveling, lol)
OP is allowed to have things he does with just his actual kids. He isn't excluding her from other events. Not everyone gets invited to every event. Next thing you know she's going to want to go to the sporting events with the Mom/Sons. I understand your point of view, but being excluded from 1 specific event isn't treating someone like they are not family.
Exactly! They are entitled to continue a long-standing tradition without her. If she wants to have outings like that, she could easily suggest an additional event instead.
You're not the same though. You're not equal to a daughter or son that they raised. You have your own family for that relationship. You are the daughter in law. The son's wife. While some families have a very close relationship between child-in-law and the rest of the family, it's not a given. I'm sorry that you think you deserve it, but your in-laws do not owe you the equal relationship you think they do. People who try to force themselves on others like that are generally disappointed in the outcome.
Its actually super entitled to think someone needs to have the same relationship as Bio kid
DIL does not equal daughter.
A daughter in law is not a daughter? Just like a brother is not a husband. Most people are perfectly capable of having close relationships with their kids spouses. Without seeing their kids spouses as The Same As one of their kids. It’s a different type/category of family member. Just like a kid isn’t a grandkid, and a grandparent isn’t a nephew. Close and welcoming doesn’t need to be equal. That’s pretty impossible, not even siblings are usually treated equally. Sounds like your inlaws and your husband failed dismally at the close and welcoming part. I like my brother in law. I really dislike my sister due to past behavior as an adult. I’d give her a kidney in a minute if she needed one. Him? No, not unless they’d tried donor banks first and exhausted other options. She’s my sister, but he’s not my brother. He’s still family, just not my sibling. And I’d never intrude on my mom’s occasional outings with my sister. That’s a Them thing. Just like she wouldn’t intrude on mine. Or BIL on either. Some things we do as an extended family group, some things are just for us. In OPs case, I’d keep the father daughter dates. And do some more general family activities since DIL seems to think she’s not integrated into the family as a member.
Your DIL has no right to attend and it’s totally acceptable that you restrict this to your two daughters. However, your comments on the thread clearly show you don’t view this woman as family… like in any way what so ever. So I hope you’re okay with the fact your relationship with your son is going to be hurt by this in the future as she’s his family now.
Yeah, there doesn’t seem to be any effort to include her whatsoever and that sucks. I’m not saying she has to be invited to father-daughter tea, but maybe make some sort of effort?
You didnt make her cry. She became emotional and cried, probably because her husband gave her the understanding she was invited.
Do the husbands of your daughters get automatically invited to the mom-son dates?
OP commented below that one daughter is married and no, son-in-law does not get invited to mom-son dates
Then OP's son is even more of an AH because he knows these dates are for Bio kids only and he riled up his wife. He is trying to interfere in the tradition between his father and his sisters.
Sue attending because she cried and begged won’t make her any more welcome at the outing. Maybe you two can have your own thing? Grab a tea and a dog walk through the park?
You obviously don't have to invite your DIL. I will say, however, that I had the greatest MIL in the world and one of the reasons is that she immediately included me and her other DIL in most of the girls events that she did with her daughter, like lunches and shopping trips. (Not every time, they also had some mother daughter events alone). Because she accepted me so completely in the family, even though she has now passed, my SIL and I are still incredibly close, actually closer than I am to my bio sister. Our children are as close as siblings and the entire extended family gets along beautifully with no drama.
But the inclusion came from your MiL, I'm guessing you didn't call her and invited yourself. I agree that OP could sometimes include his DiL, but the fact that she just assumed and invited herself would put me off a little, I have to admit that.
DIL didn’t invite herself, she got put into the situation. And we don’t know how the conversation went. She could have had a back and forth with dad a little bit that OP is saying was excessive but DIL was actually just asking a few times for clarification because she was confused and hurt. NAH
She called and asked when tea time was, not if she could come. It doesn’t matter if the son told her about it or said she could go, if OP or OPs daughters didn’t extend the invitation to their father-daughter dates, that’s inviting yourself.
She may have been asking “when” because she thought she *was* invited, that’s my point. She didn’t realize she was essentially inviting herself. I’m not advocating for barging into other peoples plans.
Okay but her insistence? That travels into the Being Wrong category
I would be slightly shocked at someone marginalizing my relationship with the family I married into as well. Jesus yall act like people are robots sometimes
> I told her this is just a thing between me and my daughters. She repeated that she is my daughter in law. This went on for a few time until I told her that she isn’t my kid and that she is not invited. Agreed, I'd have guessed that they were joking around or something. Imagine being such a snob to your new family member. OP is a total AH.
I was going to say all of this. As an only child, my in-laws have always gone out of their way to make me feel included. That generosity on their part has paid dividends all around. That said, OP is NTA. He is free to keep things as they are.
This, 1000x this. It sounds like in this case there was some miscommunication, but the FIL being so dismissive and mean about how she was definitely not invited really sets the tone. Nobody suffers when you build a longer table and open your arms to love more. He had an opportunity to be inclusive and chose to be rude and dismissive instead. It could be a great moment of family-building, but he chose bridge burning instead. He has ever right to want to be with his bio daughters alone, but this could have been a great opportunity for all of them. I hope when I'm in this position, I'm more like your MIL, and I hope all of us have in-laws more like yours.
Others have made valid points about how she just invited herself (though I wonder if someone else gave her the impression she was invited). But I couldn't help but be a bit shocked by how OP treated DIL. I have two sisters-in-law that have always been accepted as one of us. They are more sister to me than SIL. And I give credit to my mother for most of that. She has always treated them as family, and the rest of us followed suit. She would have never acted toward them the way OP is. That girl is family now!
I hope to be a wise and loving matriarch like your MIL one day.
She was the greatest. I still miss her every day. I lucked out.
Info: how do your daughters feel about it? If they wanted her to come, i’d invite her. Or your wife, what does she think?
My **wife** laughed when I told her and basically said that was ridiculous. I haven’t informed my two daughters, I probably should. I’ll give them a text before they hear about it from someone else Edit to make it clear who laughed hopefully bolding it helps.
Laughing and calling your daughter in law ridiculous seems like a mean reaction to be honest. I’m not saying you should include her on this outing, not if it’s something special you and your daughters do together and you don’t want to change that. I understand that. But at the end of the day, isn’t this just your daughter in law saying she wants to spend time with you? Isn’t that a nice thing? Why be so mean and laugh at her for it? Why not say, “Sorry, Susie, this is something just my girls and I do for one on one time. But if you’d like we can plan something different together.”
He’s very much acting like they don’t accept or see her as family. Totally ok to have ur own moments with ur children etc i wouldn’t have invited her to tea either. I wonder if she just feels left out a lot, maybe the only in law in the family so far. He mentions quite a few times that it’s just for HIS kids or the SIBLINGS ONLY and then they get off the phone and make fun of her?
You can accept someone as family without putting them in the exact same place in the family as your own children. It’s ok to have a different relationship with different parts of your family but still love them. You can love your nieces and nephews differently than your own kids. It’s a similar thing with your children’s spouses. Just because you’re not the exact same as their own kids doesn’t mean you aren’t family. It just means your relationship is different.
Yeah I mean she is showing that she wants to be part of the family. A more logical fair thing to do would have been to explain "This is a tradition I've had with them for decades and I don't want to change it. However, maybe we can schedule something with the four of us soon!" Like everyone can have what they want here.
That's way too rational
It doesn't play into the sad OP's big, rude power move. I'm glad I'm not a part of his family.
Woah woah, cool it with that emotional and relational maturity nonsense. You might make people realize they have responsibility and agency in their emotions and relationships they have and want to have.
This exactly! OP isn't the AH for wanting his time with his biological children unchanged, but he IS the AH for how he talked to his DIL and went about it.
Where did he go wrong about it? He didn't call her out of her name, just explained this was for his daughters and him Just because she ended up upset does not indicate HE went about it wrong, that's just looking for someone to blame and choosing the wrong one.
I hope when the grandkids come, your dil laughs and thinks it’s ridiculous you all feel entitled to know the name, gender, be at the hospital, visit, get pictures. You are both mean girls.
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He’s NTA for this specific event in the post, but he is TA for all his comments. I’m seriously glad these people aren’t my in-laws. My in laws accepted me as family immediately and I love them for that. I’m imagining most of these commenters aren’t married, because feeling accepted by your spouses family is kind of a big deal. I would not be surprised if he loses his relationship with his actual son over how it appears his family treats their DIL.
Ok well… now I think YTA, mocking her behind her back and being a jerk about it, there’s no need. Clearly someone told her about the event and got her excited to spend time with her sisters and father in law, But wow that was a mistake on her part to think she’s a part of the family now.
Is this something the DIL came up with on her own or was she prompted by your son? It does seem kind of weird. I probably would have asked the daughters before rejecting but making it clear that you wouldn’t tell her you talked to them. Its very family specific. My Mom does stuff with my sisters (we are all adults if that matters) and she does invite mine and my brother’s wives. However, we don’t live close so its not all the time. Also, its an all girl dynamic that might make it different. I don’t think you are wrong for saying no though. NTA.
I’m assuming my son, since I don’t know how she would even know about it if it wasn’t him. I know my two girls are not close to her so they didn’t invite her. It was in the kids group chat so she saw it there or he told her The kids groups chat doesn’t include her, it’s just the kids. My sons siblings. If she read it over his shoulder or was in his phone yes she could have seen it
If she is normally nice, sounds like he might have gassed her up and then then the phone call went sideways.
No wonder she doesn’t feel like part of the family, yall are mean as hell! Don’t be surprised if your son doesn’t wanna be around you as much when you so easily disregard his wife.
That's all I needed to see. YTA and so is your wife. It's hard being married into a family. Being completely othered like this, she will never feel welcome again. Its possible that she didn't take the rejection well or didn't understand your weird need to tell her she's not your daughter, but you should absolutely have been mature enough to recognize your family reaching out to forge a real bond. This will never be forgotten, and you have either irreparably damaged your relationship with your son or his marriage.
I mean like... no, you don't have to include her on the tea thing but goddamn, she was clearly looking forward to spending time with you. You don't have to completely shove her away either, couldn't you arrange a separate event or something?
I’ll be honest, it’s ok not to invite her. After the miscommunication (someone told her about it) and hearing how upset she is I don’t get why you wouldn’t include her this once, or do something extra with all of you another time. The idea that it’s funny doesn’t make sense to me. What’s so funny? Seriously I don’t understand why it’s so ridiculous here to want to spend time with your IL. Can you explain why the reaction here is to laugh?
Because they clearly think it's funny that she would even consider that they might have invited her to something that isn't a major holiday. They shouldn't be surprised when they stop showing up to that stuff too.
Damn y'all really don't like your DIL. YTA for not sucking it up and letting her come this one time, you're all adults. Holidays must be miserable for her with people like you.
Do you really think it would’ve been one time? That she wouldn’t have thought she could go to all of them going forward? It’s ok to want time with your children without your in-laws.
Y’all gonna learn the hard way that the DIL controls the amount of visitation of any grandkids. Who do you think tends to push sons to keep in touch, buys the gifts for the family, etc. The wife. Sons do not visit their parents often in the nursing homes either, unless a wife is involved
This entire thread is filled with people who do not understand that actions have consequences that may not manifest right away. The DIL was clearly trying to reach out and be a part of the family. OP slammed the door in her face. OP even made it abundantly clear that they will never see DIL as part of the family in the comments. If that's the attitude they want to take with her, they're within their rights but it's shitty and it will have consequences on the relationship between OP, OP's Son, the DIL and any potential kids they have. I read posts like this and it makes me so happy that I'm lucky enough to have in-laws that have gone above and beyond to make me feel a part of the family.
By the tone of your responses here, I don’t think Sue is missing out all that much on bonding with her FIL as you seem to be a spiteful old man who finds it funny she was embarrassed she wasn’t included. This is a sure fire way to alienate your son and his new family from any future events; and good luck ever seeing the grandchildren they give you.
YTA - Above you said, "*I know my two girls are not close to her so they didn’t invite her*." But if you haven't informed them, you cannot possibly know if they invited the DIL. Truth is, you don't like her and would never invite her so you are assuming they would never invite her either. You're the ass. I hope the son and DIL just exclude you from the rest of their lives. No one needs your negative energy in their lives.
that is so hurtful. Wow, you both really do not want to see her as family.
I was on your side til this response. You have every right to not invite her to your private lunch. But laughing at her and calling her ridiculous makes YTA
Why is it ridiculous though? Is it really that big of a deal to tag along one time? Someone clearly told her about it. Why do you guys have against her that you’re response was “ew you’re not my daughter I only date my daughters”?
I thought you said you checked with the girls and they hadn’t invited her, but now you haven’t informed them?
ESH- Don't laugh at your daughter in law* that's just mean and dismissive and she obviously already felt like she wasn't being included What did your son even tell her, since that seems the most likely place she got the info (and the idea that she was invited) Also, dil is presumably a legal adult and could have been more tactful, like "hey sorry if this is out of line - [son] told me about the dad-daughter tea. It sounds lovely, but I'm a little unclear if I am included since I married in, so I thought I'd just go straight to the guy in charge! If I missed an invitation, please just let me know when to show up, and if I misunderstood, I hope you have a great time, and I'd love to meet you and the sisters for lunch some other time!" *Edit for clarity/dudes who want to nitpick: his response was blunt to the point of mean the way he described it, but *he* didn't laugh at her, according to his comments his WIFE laughed at DIL for feeling like she should have been included, so I'd like to add op's wife to the list of people who suck here, because that's still mean even if DIL was presumptuous and not misled by her husband.
Best reply so far. I also think that you hit the nail on the head with the final part of your comment. If DIL had asked that way she'd likely have gotten a different answer than a straight up rejection.
Based on this guy's other replies, she still would've been rejected. The family does not seem to care for DIL, whether it's warranted or not is up for debate
Yeah, he hadn't commented that many times by the time I replied, he's just digging his own grave on that relationship. In a year, hes going to be like "my son never talks to me and it's all because my dil is too sensitive"
I can't wait to see the post 5 years from now about how only one of his kids has grandkids, but they aren't able to see them because that DIL is SO MEAN.
Correct. Just because OP has no obligation to invite her doesn't mean he has to be an asshole about it. DIL is wrong is barging into the situation but there's no reason to be impolite to her.
YTA for how you handled it. You referred to it as her demanding, but I don’t see that in what you typed. You could have explained this is a tradition with just your daughters to keep in touch with them and your wife does the same with the sons - like you explained it to us. Instead you told her she isn’t your kid. You’ve now laid the ground work for your future relationship with your DIL. She isn’t your kid so she owes you absolutely nothing that most kids would do for a parents. And newsflash for you - the wives do most of the family relationship maintenance. Gifts at birthdays and holidays, favors, planning events - you should get NOTHING from this woman ever again. From the sounds of it you probably can’t expect much from your son either. Yes, you were right in that she doesn’t need to be included, but you totally screwed the delivery.
This is exactly it. Good luck with any future grandkids from your not-daughter.
THIS EXACTLY. My partner's mom scorned me once (1). Her blatant disrespect for my relationship to her child and her treatment of me as some sort of weird druggie that [my partner] dragged off the street means she's literally never going to see her grandkids, our wedding, etc. Want to make it clear we're not family? Cool. I'm not including you in my family events, get fucked.
My mom had the audacity to say she thought my wife was lazy once. For context this was when her grandchild was 3 months old and my wife needed a bit of my help. We didn't talk to my mom for like 3 years after that. I hope OP enjoys being shunned as much as he enjoys shunning.
I agree with you. When I was with my ex I was only able to go out to eat with every body if he went or his brother invited me. His mom and his sister just dealt with it, they didn’t like me too much (his sister hated me, his mom just didn’t like that her favorite son had another woman in his life beside her) I had no siblings and no relationship with my mom because she was always working. Only my dad was around a lot so I just wanted a mom and sister to bond with, however I did get brother time with my ex’s brother and that’s something I’ll never forget Flash forward a year from that- I am now married and my husbands family is wonderful, they have zero daughters so me and the other DiL are the mom and dads daughters and both of us are very welcome to everything. Even DH’s step mom views me as an extra daughter. We live 3 hours away from them but visit constantly and everyone is loved and included and it is all I could’ve ever wanted. I wanna say YTA, DiL probably just wanted to be part of the family and wanted to bond. And the dad and mom clearly have no interest in her and they laughed at it which just makes it worse. And u/sharethewine is absolutely right, it is the women that do the gift getting and planning, that’s how it is in my husbands family and hell if they try to go to him for planning he tells them to ask me or they just go straight to me for it all
> I wanna say YTA, DiL probably just wanted to be part of the family and wanted to bond. Definitely. The top answers full of NTA here reaffirmed my belief that this sub is full of sociopaths who lack the capacities to discern complex situations. The DIL reached out and they laughed at her. Congratulations, you just made your son's marriage way more difficult than it has to be, so just you can keep your tea party exclusive. If the whole point of those dates were to spend more time, why not spend more time with your DIL as well?
Agreed. Over tea. It ain't like she invited herself on a luxury cruise line around the world. It's tea. Congrats, ostracized your son's partner for life over tea. Tea bruh. Tea. Recent years really did scramble peoples brains for inclusion and compassion. Fucking tea.
Sorry buddy, but YTA. Hear me out. From your replies to comments, even a blind person could see how much you dislike your DIL. You vehemently dislike her and your disdain just drips off every word. I'm sure she knows you don't like her. It's sad. I was the DIL my in laws didn't like, and I can empathize with what your DIL is feeling. Are you required to involve her in your little family traditions? No. Not in the slightest. And you're not TA for not inviting her. You want this to be some special bonding time with your adult daughters because you were (and let's admit it, are) probably an emotionally unavailable dad. You don't seem to be in contact with feeling like empathy, kindness, generosity, or basic decency because otherwise you would have either offered an invitation to her or you would have been kinder in how you put up your boundary. Putting up a boundary like not wanting her to come because you just want your biological family there is reasonable and understandable. Saying what you did, and how you said it was unnecessarily cruel. I'd bet my 11th toe you were cruel on purpose so she never has the audacity to think she's welcome in your family ever again let alone in the first place. And buddy, who counts how many hours they've spent with in laws or "found family" (whatever tf that is)? 75 hours? My god man, I have cousins who I know I haven't spent that much time around and I still love them dearly and treat them with kindness. It's not that hard. It's 2023. Get some empathy, get some therapy, and get over yourself. Jfc.
100%. He also says in his comments that they laughed at her and yet all the other comments are berating her for “inviting herself and throwing a fit about hearing no.” And it’s like… wouldn’t your feelings be hurt if your husband told you you were invited to something and when you asked about it, they laughed at you and said you weren’t family? That’s so humiliating. I’d literally never show up to anything with them ever again.
Honestly the way it's reading to me is OP is an unreliable narrator. Like there is high potential here for him to be exaggerating her response in order to make himself look better.
The funny thing is if he is doing that he STILL comes off as a huge asshole lol
> inviting herself and throwing a fit about hearing no I also severely doubt it played out like this in the first place. It kinda sounds like the DIL has become the proverbial whipping post for OPs family for whatever reason.
Glad SOMEONE sees it
I’m so glad someone said it. I forget sometimes outside of parent Reddit that many many redditors are entitled socially inept brats who have such a piss poor attitude about interpersonal relationships. This man clearly can’t stand his DIL. My dad would invite my brothers wife and I’d be pissed if he didn’t, and my father-in-law would forget to invite one of his own daughters before he ever left me out. I can’t begin to understand this dynamic.
Nice response, I was getting really disheartened about all the NTA's about. This sh*t has a funny way of working both ways, hope OP remembers that if/when it comes to grand children and the like. He will get what he gives.
This is my favorite response. This comment section is filled with "you don't owe anyone anything" energy. Yeah, the DIL inviting herself was dumb but that doesn't mean everyone should immediately dogpile on her and act like the dad did nothing wrong. Kindness goes a long way. He could have easily said this is a special tradition between his two daughters but would love to create a new opportunity to get to know her better and plan a different activity together. Or he can find a way to incorporate her into a future one. YTA ruling from me too
Perfect response.
NTA - there's a difference between keeping something between you and your daughters and "not welcoming her to the family". Those dates were set up so you could spend time with your kids, not her. There is no reason that she would be going. I'm not sure if it's entitlement or what, but I never expected my FIL to treat me the same as his actual daughter.
NTA. I would never call my FIL and demand something like this. What they do in their free time together is their business not mine. If I wanna do something like this also, I politely ask.
And don’t press. He told her politely and instead of respecting the boundary, DIL kept trying to push it, over and over and over. NTA.
I feel sorry for Sue. You say she is a nice girl and it sounds like for some reason she thought she was included in this event as part of the family, (group post? invite or info from her husband?). IDK how you actually handled the conversation but you make it sound as if you were quite blunt whereas perhaps you could have handled the situation better. I imagine she feels rejected, embarrassed, and family relationships will suffer because of what appears to be a lack of tact on your part. If this is the case, YTA. Edit to add... I can understand you wanting to see just your daughters, but it is possible to explain that with tact and grace.
His reaction was really rude and would not fly in my family. We treat spouses like members of the family because they are. YTA, OP and far too many people are letting him off the hook. Why not try to build a bridge instead of being rude.
This. I'm sitting here with my husband absolutely floored by all of the NTA verdicts here.
People seem to think that things never have to change. But they do.
I agree with you. It sounds to me like she was told she was invited and wasn’t trying to invite herself. OP’s laughing and bluntness honestly borders on cruel. She probably feels very vulnerable just joining the family and trying to find her place in it.
YTA. Great way to alienate your DIL. Harsh & rude response to new comer making the effort. Not enough time to have a new tradition? Of course still do the tea with bio daughters. A thoughtful person’s response might be “great idea for all of us to get together. Why don’t you set it up. I’m still doing the traditional father/daughter tea, but we can start an additional tea tradition for the four of us.”
INFO: are either of your daughters married? If yes, do their partners join your son on your wife’s day out?
One of them is marrried, my SIL doesn’t join son-mom dates
Then your eldest knew the precedent did not include in-law children. This is on him. Plus, it is rude to invite people to an event when you are not the host or have explicit permission from the host. It is even more rude to invite yourself. They are wrong.
It's funny how most of these issues crop up from a lack of communication - this blame falls solely on your son if he's responsible for this small issue.
ESH You suck for not being more tactful and trying to find out who made her believe she was invited. She sucks for not backing down immediately and going straight back to the person who made her believe that she was invited. Whoever made her believe that she was invited sucks for not talking to you first. However, if you wish to be a part of the lives of any grandchildren from her, you need to step back and get to the bottom of this and learn to be kinder when faced with something like this, especially if YOUR son is causing this triangulation.
Seriously, your DIL literally wanted to go and have tea with her FIL and SIL’s and instead of being kind and inclusive and getting to know her without your son around you…. Mocked her, made her feel stupid and made her cry? You don’t think that whatever this miscommunication was, you couldn’t have seen any positive to having her come along just once? So small-minded, and I doubt this is the first time she’s been treated like this in your family. *Add after reading update* - This is so sad, she said outright she just wants to spend time with your daughters, and - after she’s been laughed at by her husbands family and AH’s online - she’s expected to ask your daughters to spend time with her? I mean, perhaps THEY could ask HER? And then she asks if she’s still allowed to attend a family dinner? There’s something really wrong here. Just show a bit of kindness FFS.
And tons of people in here think he's in the right! Holy shit. Lots of cruel people in this subreddit with no idea how to build a family
Eh NTA i guess but based on your comments you guys seem to have a strange (to me at least) family dynamic. Why are you so adamant that she’s not your kid? You almost seem angry that someone married into the family. My parents always tried to include my wife in sibling and family thing even before we were married and now love that she calls them mom and dad. Only seeing her on holidays is odd too if your wife and son have mother-son outings regularly and you have father-daughter outings, do you just not see your son?
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The son is the a-hole here and the daughter-in-law is out of her head. If your son did invite her then he should have talked to you about it first so that you could have told him no that's not how this works. If she just assumed it's because she's nutso. Does op's son want all his brother-in-laws to show up on mom/son day? I mean op' has a few daughters so that's going to likely happen if we don't set the boundary. And I love that the daughter-in-law argued with the father (who is the host of the event) that she should be there? how rude is that? If my wife told me "hey you're invited to a family event" and I asked the family about it and they said oh sorry you're not invited". I'd be like " oh I'm sorry for the mix-up have a good day." I certainly wouldn't argue with them that I should be there. Wtf? NTA.
INFO: are these dates more for you or for your daughters? It sounds like the oldest invited your DIL, probably as a gesture of good will and an opportunity to make her feel like part of the family. If your daughters wanted her there then you come off as at best a bit dense, and at worse needlessly cruel and uncompromising. ETA: apologies, I must have missed the bit where it was her husband that invited her. I was thinking your oldest DAUGHTER invited her. NTA, but it does sound like your DIL would like to have more of a relationship with you and yours, so that might be worth considering for the future.
It’s for both, for me and the girls.
>It sounds like the oldest invited your DIL, Yeah, to something he himself isn't even invited to
The oldest, as in, the son was inviting her, which is kind of weird since he isn't invited. If one of the daughters invited her it would be different, but I don't think that's the case
I wonder what a daughter in law is to you. It a cultural thing. In my family all daughters in law are like daughters. Part of the family. they get included.
YTA - and so is your wife, for mocking DIL's disappointed reaction.
YTA. What is with all the posts lately that say "i treat my kid in law like crap and alienate them from the family, aita? Ya'll are the reason evil parent in-law stereotypes exist.
YTA, It would’ve been gracious to include her this time so as not to embarrass her or make her feel unwelcome. You could’ve enjoyed the tea with your daughters and daughter in law and also scheduled another time to spend with your daughters with the understanding that only your daughters would be going. There was clearly a misunderstanding about her being invited and your response was hurtful. If for some reason you really couldn’t include her for tea the proper response would be, “I’m so sorry we aren’t able to have you at tea this time, let’s plan to get lunch together with my daughters next month, thanks so much for understanding, I’m so looking forward to seeing you all together for lunch.” Your response was rude. Your daughter in law clearly wants to get to know you and your family better and you only damage your overall family unit, not to mention, your relationship with your son, by being unable to respond calmly and kindly.
Unpopular opinion, YTA. She wanted you to be her dad and you rejected her. Maybe she has her own dad; maybe she doesn’t. Maybe they have a good relationship; maybe they don’t. But she wanted to come be your daughter at daddy daughter day. It wasn’t a lavish vacation or something, it was tea. And you were like, “No, why would I want you?”
NTA It's a daughter-father thing. You son should have stopped his wife himself. >I told her this is just a thing between me and my daughters. She repeated that she is my daughter in law Why did she insist? No is no. >not welcoming her into the family. You see her at family events so she is already welcomed. You did nothing wrong and don't give a sh\*t to guilt trip. Take care
“She isn’t my kid” is a dangerous precedent. What if someday she says you can’t visit your grandkids because “you’re not her dad”?
NTA and reason is because if i was her I wouldn't have asked. If I was wanted somewhere I'd get an invite. If she felt a bit left out then she should have spoken to your son first and he could have spoken with you. The other question is how your daughters felt about her being invited. In my head sometimes things in the family should just be seperated depending on occasions.
Maybe this is a cultural thing, but when people marry into my family, they’re embraced as fully part of the family. All of my aunts or my grandma’s daughters simply because they married my uncles. My sister in law is my sister, which is exciting because I’ve always wanted a sister. Idk, but this makes me feel like YTA. If anything you could’ve handled this with more class, instead you basically treated her like she’s nothing other than your son’s wife and you have no interest in getting to know her.
NTA- why would she assume that she would be invited to this? LOL... That lunch is for quality time with your daughters- not your sons, your son's wife, your extended family, etc.... doesn't mean she isn't family, but this is something special for just you and your daughters.
>why would she assume that she would be invited to this? Her husband convinced her, I reckon.
NTA I get that she wants to be a part of the family tradition, but this is something special you do with just your daughters. Perhaps take your son and DIL out for a nice dinner for time to time, but she can't invite herself to this. That's not how it works.
INFO. How did she hear about this? Was it your son? Did one of your daughters tell her about it. She’s not entitled to attend of course but your reaction to this leaves is pretty ducking poor. She’s family now whether you view her that way or not. Treat her like she’s some interloper and it’s just going to push your son away from you in the future. I feel there was a lot of better ways to handle this.
YTA Wtf, I seriously don't get all of these responses. *You're family now*. And while that means different things to different people, clearly to *your son and your DIL* it's pretty meaningful that she be accepted into the family like blood- or at least the effort is made to do so. That's not unreasonable. That is the type of family I have (my mother welcomed all her sons and daughters IL in as if they were her own kids. BiLs and SiLs are all close as can be. All our kids are considered cousins, whether by blood or marriage. And maybe that's not what you want... But holy shit man, how can you have no empathy for people who feel differently about it? *Your wife laughed because your son's wife wants to be included in close family activities?* you're ridiculing her for wanting to have a closer relationship with her husband's dad? Seriously man. I thank God I don't have in-laws like that. I get that you value these tea times with your daughters. But I absolutely encourage you to open them to her. And if not, which is understandable, you should be looking to create something that will say to her "look, I need this to be for me and my kids, but let's start something new just as close that we can all be a part of and have some close times together". But don't have any illusions that this won't hurt her.
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Damn I'd hate to marry into your family make you feel isolated right off the bat.
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I am curious, what does your daughter-in-law call you? If you have her call you Dad, she might have taken it as a sign that she had the same rights as your daughters. I think this could be handled a little more kindly. You absolutely have the right to alone time with your daughters but something is going on with DIL where she wants to feel included too. Maybe she doesn't have a close relationship with her own family, her parents are gone, she is not feeling secure in her place in your family, etc. I would take this as a sign something is up with DIL. Another poster recommended taking her and your son out to dinner. What about something like that to start your own, new tradition? You only help your relationship with your son if you show some kindness to her.
My name
Which one of your kids invited her? You know, the kids you raised. My guess is she was given the impression she was invited. You certainly don’t play the long game, or waste a minute on diplomacy. Congratulations?