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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> WIBTA for telling my friend the name she chose for her baby is horrible. I think could be TA because I feel like I would be judging how she is processing her grief
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Mary and I were in kindergarten together. It’s a singalong song like 99 bottles of beer on the wall. Created to drive teachers, parents, and school bus drivers crazy.
I'm not a native of an English speaking country, plus regardless if it's a classic or not the youtube search shows modern animated cartoons for children singing this
It is a kids song. That's for sure. It's why modern versions are animated with kids. The song has been around forever, and is mainly aimed at toddlers and younger kids.
I’ve only heard it now that I have kids. It’s come up on YouTube kids enough times for me to know it off by heart but I don’t recall knowing it as a child.
Edited to add I’m not American so maybe that’s why
Did you guys have Barney and friends on your TV? I’m a little older than the Barney group, but this was one of their favorite songs to sing on that show. They’re called sing along songs, catchy and engaging but it’s really just a chorus on repeat, think about the song that never ends…
Want to know how I got revenge on my teem age daughter or her cousins or friends back in the day? When plucking my last nerve? I would get her and her teenage cousins or friends in the car. Doors locked. AC or heat on depending on the weather. Radio off. Then I would proceed to sing the song that never ends at the top of my longs until they figured out they either needed to calm down, listen or suffer me singing until me voice died. They never made it past the 15 minute mark before they started towing the line.
She is 34 now. Her threat to teenagers is locking them alone in a room with me and playing the song that never ends. Yes she has loaded them in a car when they are fighting and sings that song until they apologize to each other.
I am not sure if it's child abuse or just against the Geneva Convention rules.
Random related stupid fact: there is (or at least used to be) a John Jacob Jingleheimer Shmidt highway located somewhere in Arkansas. Like I said, it may not be named that anymore, but it was when I was a young kid (around 13/ 14. I'm in my mid 40s now). I only remember because I had a relative who passed away at that time and we drove from Northern Illinois to Russellville, AR at like 3am. When my mom and I got to this highway and saw its name, we both started laughing so hard we were crying despite the somber reason for our trip. I remember all the adults gathered around a table in said family member's home after the funeral, my mom bringing it up, and everyone laughing and singing multiple rounds of the song until we were all crying.
Oh boy, you are in for a treat if you can find Disney's Rocketman with Harland Williams. He sings this song at the best moment in the movie, and it's pretty funny.
I’ll be gawd damned if I don’t wanna legally change my last name to Schmidt and adopt a baby (my birthing days have - thankfully - passed lol) just so I can name this poor child John Jacob Jingleheimer!
I’m sooooo glad I’m not the only one whom thought this!!
Also NTA OP. When that kid gets older and realises his older brother had the same name ????? 😳
Reminds me of my grandfather. He was a twin. He was named Lorne Clayton and his brother Orne Layton. Seriously 😟???? 🤦♀️
People are also going to assume the kid had a grandfather named John Jacob, as the "III" means the third generation.
I would totally get behind naming the kid Jingleheimer, though.
People who know everyone's names will assume that Sarah and John Jacob Senior are foster-parenting their grandson-through-two-instances-of-VERY-early-fatherhood.
At least they weren’t named Clyde (female) and Claude (male) twins. I took care of Clyde when I worked at a nursing home. She would sit by the windows and talk to her twin brother Claude. It was her reflection.
I knew male and female twins both named Dennis, with that spelling but the female name was pronounced "Denise". They parents thought it was cute, both Dennis did not, but the sister definitely got the short end of the stick.
This made me chuckle! I work in the dental field, and I had a family of boys that were my patients, and they all were named Earl, but each spelled differently. When I called them back to get get their teeth cleaned, it was so hard not to keep it together calling out their names, and it was confusing too. They were Earl, Errol and Earyl. 😂
I taught and we had a family where all five sons were named Lincoln. Different middle names. I asked one of them if his mom called them by their middle names, and he looked confused and asked me why she would do that.
My grandpa Barry named his son Barry, and his daughter Terry. My uncle Barry got married to Carry. So I have Grampa Barry, Aunt Carry, Aunt Terry, Uncle Barry. And my mom’s name? Charlotte….. Barry, Terry, Barry, Carry and Charlotte. Makes no sense.
Reminds me of an old joke...
A woman is pregnant with twins and goes into labor one day. Her husband isn't home at the time, but her husband's brother happens to be there and he drives her to the hospital, where she's put under for a C section.
When she wakes up a nurse informs her that she now has two healthy babies, a boy and a girl. But because she was under sedation and her husband is on his way, her husband's brother has picked the names for the children.
"My husband's idiot brother! Oh no!" she groans. "What names did he pick?"
"He named the girl 'Denise,'" the nurse says.
"Hmm, Denise, that's not so bad. Pretty nice name, actually. Ok, what'd he name the boy?"
"Denephew!"
Psych S5E1 Romeo and Juliet and Juliet Episode:
My name is Shawn Spencer.
This is my partner
Jonathan Jacob jingly Smith.
You're saying his name is
John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt?
That's correct, sir.
We used to share the name.
I changed mine because
of all the people shouting
When I went out.
💚🍍💛
Non-American here, needed to search the internet on what's happening here. I see a giant purple dinosaur is spreading messages. It all comes together now. (Sleepdrunk and amused.)
It's an old folk song. Chipper and short, so popular with kids (which is why Barney added it to his repertoire), but it’s much older than that show. My mom sang it as a kid in the 50s. My dad marched while singing it in the Army.
NAH
This is such a tricky one. Your friend is clearly still grieving her loss, and maybe finding solace in being able to remember her first baby through his brother. This is understandable, and I cannot call her a butt.
HOWEVER, this is not a good decision on her part. I can just see the toll that being named after a stillborn sibling will take on the coming child. I would be concerned, as I'm sure you are that they will not be able to develop an identity separate from their parents' idea of their older brother. So you also would not be the butt for bringing this up GENTLY with Sarah. Be prepared, though, for her to be very hurt and angry; no good deed goes unpunished.
This! Children need their own identities, grief is hard. A possible solution for them would be passing down just the middle name or just the first name but as a middle name so the child could still have their own identity but carry something personal and special too. Good luck to op delivering her feelings, it will be hard for recipient and deliverer.
I was named after my dead older brother 'replacement child syndrome ' is what it's called
It's a tough gig because yr always being compared to someone who never failed.
It can cause a range of psychological issues, some of which I have faced
After l lost my first child, my MIL told me that her in laws lost their first child and that they gave their second child the same name as the first was given. Apparently this was common in some parts of my country at the time. Not today.
If I ever have another daughter, she will share the middle names we gave our first one, but that’s because I always have thought of doing this since it is family names in both of my and my husbands families.
Middle names are the way to go. Me and my twin have middle names from my mom's deceased parents. She lost them very young, 30 or so years before she had any kids so we were never "living up" to a memory, as she could barely remember them herself.
Funny enough I ended up being a line cook anyways, found out recently my grandfather was a chef.
Even middle names can be tricky. My aunt's middle name is her stillborn sister's first name and she's always hated it, as (in her own words) "she's more than just her sister's replacement".
Yes, but I also believe how you talk about the names are necessary for it to not be a burden. I won’t talk about them as another daughter would be given the names after our first. The names are given after my grandmother and our great grandmother’s who had them. And our deceased daughter’s first name will not be given to another child. That is her name.
That is very sad and I totally understand your aunt’s feelings. That is not how it should be and she is not.
My grandparents lost a child at two weeks old, my dad has the same first name (different middle) and I think it’s always bothered him. He always comments about how strange it is.
Yeah man, I mean I wasn’t even named after my mom’s miscarriage and *still* cried as a kid thinking about how my parents probably wished that one had lived instead.
Aaaaaaand this is why I never told my kids about the miscarriages I had between them. And won’t, until/unless they decide to have kids and need to know I’m a safe person to talk about miscarriages with (something my mom never did, and I never told her about them because I still don’t know how she’d react).
My first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage and I would not have my son if that pregnancy had come to term. I would have A child, and I would love that child, but it wouldn’t be him and I would never trade him for anything—not even that baby.
My daughter has definitely said these words to me before, and all I can do is repeatedly reassure her that she was wanted for herself, and that we wouldn't trade who she is for anyone else.
Thank god my parents never told me I had a stillborn twin until I was 27. I didn’t even think of it, but after reading this thread, holy shit, thank you mom.
Yeah my mom miscarried before me and used to make comments about if he’d been born my sister and I probably wouldn’t have been. Cool cool thanks, I needed that information at 8…
I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. I knew a family who did the same, but it had even more onion layers (the kind that cause tears when you peel too many). The parents had 4 girls in an attempt to have a precious son, then they finally had a boy who died a few hours after birth. This was 1982 I believe, and prenatal testing was much more limited so they didn't know that there was a genetic heart defect in play that only shows up in males. A few months later she got pregnant again, a year after losing let's call him Robert Joseph Jr., Robert Joseph III was born and rushed immediately into open heart surgery to repair the problem. Good news - their long awaited precious boy recovered beautifully, played football in high school, and as far as I know is still doing well. Of course I'm wondering how being named after his brother affected him, along with being brought to visit his gravesite and leave toys every holiday and birthday. I've lost touch with the sister I was friends with, so unfortunately I don't know any current details.
goddd having the visit the grave and act Appropriately Sad about the brother who lived for only a few hours, three years before i was even born, and yet i was never allowed to speak of him because it would make mom too sad…..fuckin sucked. still does 30-some years later. my mom so clearly embodies what a commenter above said, how my brother can never fail but i sure can.
Same here. My sister died 4 years before I was born shortly after birth. She was delivered on Christmas Day. I wasn't allowed to ask questions and not speak about it. Every Christmas we would go to her graveside but my mother never got out of the car 😪. Now both of my parents have passed and I keep her birth records safe and sound. Maybe that's why I was such a rebellious teenage girl, I could never live up to my sister who never failed. And her dying actually saved my life since the same complications happened with me but this time the doctors knew what to do.
>A possible solution for them would be passing down just the middle name or just the first name but as a middle name
The problem is they're really looking for a do over legacy name after dad.
Yup.and legacy naming after dad is a problem to begin with, because our sons or daughters are not our clones.
What if John Jacob III doesnt like sportsball? Is gay? Is trans? Let them be their own person.
I can somewhat understand naming after a beloved family member like a grandparent, but naming after yourself IMO is problematic given people often struggle to deal with their kids being their own person; rather than a do over of their own life.
Yep. My husband has a legacy name (he’s a III) and his father was a deeply flawed, abusive person. He’s basically gone no contact with much of his family, and has considered changing his middle name and ditching the III to further separate from this “legacy”.
Miscarriage, stillbirth, and loss of a child are traumatic events and should not be unnecessarily handed down to the younger children. I think the parents in this situation could find a way to honor their loss without inflicting trauma on their new baby.
If nothing else, the "third" designation means this current pregnancy is her husband's grandson. Each number is the generation after the original name bearer. This point is pedantic, but it's going to be "fun" (read: not fun) for someone doing genealogical research one day. This pregnancy isn't really being named for her husband, tbh, he's being named for the stillborn child.
I hate to mention it, but there is also the possibility that this pregnancy does not make it. In some cultures, this is precisely why a child is never named until after they've been born ('evil eye'). As someone who has lost multiple pregnancies, my heart goes out to this friend of yours, and you as you navigate this. If she hasn't explored options, there are groups that give support and help process these things. If she's able to grieve the lost son, it may help her to stop trying to replace him with this (or future) children, as replacement syndrome is a very real and damaging phenomenon.
Totally agree with fiercequalities comment.
You could tactfully suggest that they honour her deceased baby, and her husband by giving her current baby the name as a middle name, either John Jacob, or even JJ as a middle name, knowing it is in honor of them. I wouldn't add the '3rd' bit to the middle name though as that's a bit much. But something like 'Alex John Jacob Smith, or Alex JJ Smith. '
I'd approach it by saying you're concerned that giving the baby the name as its first name may be triggering and a constant reminder of the baby they have lost, and this baby is an individual in their own right, and by giving them a different first name, they'll be recognising them as an individual with their own personality to grow into. But still be recognising their lost baby and husband with it as his middle name.
If the first baby had survived, would they still be calling this 2nd baby "John Jacob III"? I think that would be my first question to her, cause I suspect not, so in doing so they are mentally entwining the two babies instead of naming him as an individual
THIS !! I saw a post from a different redditor who’s a twin. their twin died at birth but they survived. their whole life, their birthday was celebrated “with” the deceased twin. they would get upset because they just wanted at least one birthday cake with just THEIR name on it and not “Happy Birthday OP and Twin Name”. this child will live with that forever even tho they aren’t a twin. they’ll share a name with their deceased sibling for the rest of their life unless they change it once an adult.
That's kind of creepy. I can understand the parents wanting to remember this baby, but don't do that to a 5 yr old. Maybe have a private moment after the party
The other day I listened to a woman talking about her quadruplets and eventually had to explain that one of them died shortly after birth. I understand they’re technically not triplets but it still seemed strange to refer to them over and over as quads when there was obviously only three. Not sure if there’s a perfect solution for that but still.
But for a lot of men, having the name passed along is a hugely important thing. Plus naming him the III’d would be weird because everyone would assume that his father is the II’d.
Poor Sarah, that must suck.
Generally Jr. is used for somebody who has the same name as their father, and II is used for somebody who has the same name as a male relative, but not the father.
"Listen, I'm Zaphod Beeblebrox, my father was Zaphod Beeblebrox the Second, my grandfather Zaphod Beeblebrox the Third..."
"What?"
"There was an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine."
There were many reasons Vincent Van Gogh struggled with mental illness. One of the reasons: he was named after his stillborn brother and had to see their shared name on a tombstone all the time
You can't blame Van Gogh's mental illness on sharing a name with a dead sibling. This was a very common occurrence. Beethoven also shared a name with a deceased sibling. He was the second Ludwig van Beethoven. Look into Marie Antoinette's siblings, they kept using the same names also. Infant mortality used to be much, much more common and names were commonly reused. In our modern culture reusing a name has become taboo. Historically it was the norm.
Edit: spelling
Van Gogh had a lot of problems. His name was the least of them
Infant mortality was so high back then. It was viewed much differently. Sad, sure, but much more matter of fact.
I heard that a couple hundred years ago they didn't even bother giving the kid a real name until they were past 5, because so many children died before the age of 5.
They practiced this in the Appalachians up until less then 100 years ago. they would choose a letter and the baby would go by their initials until the parents thought they were old enough for a name, some went the rest of their lives by the initials because the parents were like whatever.
Good god. I have a fairly common name. Think Sophia, Isabella or Olivia for little girls now but I'm an adult. And I have a top 20 last name. I was telling my nephew just earlier this evening about how 11 years ago I was doing the dishes in one room and the TV was on in another and it said local woman 27-year-old First Name Last Name died in a ...whatever newsworthy way she died. I remember feeling an almost out of body experience. I was the same age at the time. That was a one time experience that I happened to retell today. Seeing my name on a grave?? For a kid that should also be alive? Not just..your elderly grandparents or something? Holy crap
this!!! I lost my daughter. her name was Wednesday. I got pregnant again with another little girl, I named her Roslyn. I will never use either name again… Wednesday and Roslyn were babies. they were living beings. I won’t push who they coulda been onto who my next baby can be
>they will not be able to develop an identity separate from their parents' idea of their older brother
But why? There are a million other factors that go into identity. Ask me who I am, and I'll tell you a lot of shit that has nothing to do with my name. My name actually does relate to the circumstances of my birth. But it has nothing to do with my identity.
By this logic, using a legacy name in the first place would have been problematic. Yet it happens all the time, and people make it out just fine. The child's name has literally nothing to do with his identity as long as the parents treat him like a unique individual. Approaching this woman like she's taking away the kid's identity isn't just questioning her naming abilities. It's questioning her next several years of parenting abilities.
Reddit has become so precious about names recently. A name is a name. If she's capable of raising a child at all, she's capable of raising that child to stand tall. Everyone's acting like he'll see himself as some sort of backup plan. As if he'll be coached to believe this from birth. "Now as you know, Jingleheimer, you were named after the dead child."
Or he'll just be a normal boy with a normal name (he will go by John and meet several others) and a normal life. Some things just aren't this deep, man. We really need to step away from treating every single thing in a child's life like it's a gateway to trauma.
Hmm, I'm gonna say NTA because you didn't outright say anything when she told you, and you were taken by surprise, so I can understand if it took you a second to compose yourself. I would avoid giving your opinion unless she specifically asks for it, but if she does ask then I dont think it makes you an AH to say how you honestly feel. Part of being a good friend is being honest and giving thoughtful, constructive advice if consulted for it. I get that she probably is doing it to honor the first baby, but to me this seems to do the opposite- like she's trying to make a replacement John for the John she lost. Regardless, though, if she wants to continue down that road then you have to respect it and be kind about it, nobody but her knows how she feels and what she's going thru so its not fair to judge.
To me, it sounds like she really wants her son to have his father's name. Since she already used JJ2 on the stillborn, this is her way of still getting what she wants. I don't think it's a good idea, but to each their own.
Right. It's odd to me that people think that she's naming the baby this to honor her baby that passed. It's the father's name. Why wouldn't you jump to her honoring the baby's father?
JJ v2.2 😊
So she can keep going with v2.3 if anything would happen to the next baby.
Jokes aside, but yeah the comment with the question if she would name the new baby that name if the first had lived is spot on.
Grief is a tricky thing. One can understand that she misses her firstborn and wishes he had not died. Naming the second baby exactly the same would not bring him back though. And as others have pointed out, would not be healthy for the second child growing up.
Also the firstborn deserves his own name to be remembered by. A new child with the same name kind of erases the first one. Middle names is the way to go.
Imagine if she had married a man whose first wife had died and he would want to rename her after his first wife. How would she feel about that?
NAH but prepare for her reaction to be a bit out of proportion. You are right, but it will be painful for her to hear it. Good luck OP.
NAH. I understand the logic behind the name and as other people have pointed out, the child is *technically* named after the father, not the late stillborn. And because the stillborn was buried as "John Jacob II," it makes sense to feel as though that exact name was aready given and now cannot be used.
But any time they or their son introduces his full name, people have a chance to ask, "John Jacob the third? Not second?" and someone (probably him) will need to bring up the death of the stillborn and clarify the name order. There's a chance people might assume the father is John Jacob II if people haven't met him, but there's a big chance this name choice might keep the first baby's death fresh and relevant for their second child's entire life. Other people here have done well to point out that this could, even unintentionally, make their second son feel that he is living in a shadow of his late older brother, but that can be solved by good parenting. It's not an inherent implication.
If you bring this up to your friend, don't accuse her of naming her baby after her stillborn. You don't know how she's processing her grief, and this might have been a joint decision between her and her husband that they felt honoured both their lost child and their original wishes. The name itself isn't some ridiculous thing the child will be made fun of for, so there's no issue with that.
So if you want to mention something to Sarah, you should tread carefully. This is a very nuanced situation. It might be best to start with saying you're surprised by the name, then ask how she's been doing with handling the grief from her loss, and whether this new name was a difficult choice for her or not (which might open her up into giving her reasoning for it). If you say anything about the new name directly, I'd suggest pointing out the same thing I did— that others might be very likely to ask about the name, possibly frequently, and ask if she feels she's ready to handle that, or if she thinks that's the best history to pass onto her second child. Don't tell her it's wrong or bad, just point it out the implications of the choice if she doesn't seem aware, and let them decide for themselves.
It's a tricky conversation and situation but this isn't an r/tragedeigh situation, so if you're close with Sarah, I think gently sharing your misgivings might be kind to do, but there's a chance they've already been considered and your two cents aren't wanted here. There's a chance they would have named a second son the same thing anyways, and it's not every day everyone actually uses "Jr / Sr / II / III" unless it's relevant.
Realistically, wouldn't most people just assume that he's the third because his father and grandfather have that name? I feel like he wouldn't actually have to explain the origin often if ever
I would say yes, unless people know the father's name already. But it's not impossible it might be brought up, so it's good to make sure the parents are aware of the possibility and prepared to handle it. And if they are, then it still works as an appropriate name for their current child because it's not something people will ask EVERY time. But regardless, it will almost certainly remind Sarah and John of their loss, so hopefully they made this choice carefully.
It's not unusual for people who are Sr's or Jr's to leave off that part of their name unless the other person with that same name is part of the story, and they need to clarify who is who. Most people who know John Jacob sr. probably just know him as John Jacob; if he introduced me to his son and said "Here's my son, John Jacob III," I would just assume the father was a Jr. and hadn't mentioned it.
When is he going to be introducing himself as “John Jacob, the third“?
And how many people are going to know that his father is not John Jacob Junior?
Worst-case scenario, he tells people that he had a brother who was stillborn with the previous name. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal.
Agree with you. I don't see anything wrong with the naming, and the "Third" bit will likely come up 2, 3 times in his lifetime. This only becomes drama if people let it become drama.
I feel as though a large percentage of parents willing to name their kids after themselves would definitely be the types to introduce their children's full first names, but fair point.
I do think the name works fine, but I also understand OP's surprise and concerns. If OP and Sarah are close, I don't think it's hurtful to check that she's fully considered the situations where it might be brought up, because it will likely happen on at least a few occasions. And it gives OP the chance to have a constructive conversation with their friend given that it came as a surprise to them (and other people they know), so its a good way to explain their reaction without being hurtful or dismissive.
The parents maybe, but not the kid. He’s just going to introduce himself as “John Jacob.” if the parents can’t handle people asking where Junior is, in those few situations where people know that the father is not actually a junior, then the parents can obviously change up and just leave off the suffix.
I agree. The name is technically correct as-is, and while I don't personally like the concept of naming children after parents, there's nothing inherently bad about it and people have been doing it for thousands of years. I also wouldn't want to name any of my theoretical children the same thing, regardless of whether any passed or not, but again, that's personal preference.
I think OP's main concern here more stems from the implications of the "missing" John Jacob II, and as long as the parents have fully considered this and are prepared to raise their son with this knowledge in a responsible way, I don't see an issue with it. It's clear that "John Jacob" is just a name they really wanted (and still want) to raise a son with, and the "second/third" distinction could be a nice dedication to their late firstborn. If it was a name ONLY shared between the two children, thst would be a different situation.
As long as OP doesn't make the conversation about their own opinions, I think it will be fine. I don't see anything wrong with asking about the decision and making sure it was properly thought through, it just needs to be done carefully or OP will absolutely be overstepping.
NTA. At all. I can already see this poor kid having to live in his dead older brother’s shadow his entire life, always being compared to the son his brother could’ve been. This is not a healthy way of coping for the mom either. She seems like she needs therapy if she hasn’t gotten it already
I agree. I feel like the baby should have its own name and identity and not be permanently connected to or associated with his dead brother. Also wouldn't naming him John Jacob III be implying that he is the son of John Jacob II?
I’m not sure actually. I know that historically speaking it wasn’t super uncommon to give multiple of your children the same name because they likely wouldn’t make it to adulthood. But in the modern day? It just seems weird to me. Well, even weirder than it already was at least
i can't get past the III part.
when you get named the 'third' with the same name like that, that name was your father's name (he was II), and also your paternal grandfather's name (he would have been I).
i can understand grieving, but to use the III like this is just not correct. never mind how it's related to a stillbirth of someone of the same generation.
i'll say NTA if you are able to bring it up gently and know when to walk away without getting upset if Sarah doesn't take it well. you could lose a friendship, so keep that in mind too.
This is what I thought too, but I looked it up before posting. When (m) siblings share their father's name, it's I, III, IV, etc. It must have been common enough at some point for the protocol to exist. This usage is in fact correct. The most recent famous example of this would be George Foreman and his sons.
FDR’s first son Franklin died a couple months after birth and he named another son Franklin. It may have been common place when so many children died in infancy.
Technically, the first baby should’ve been Jr., not II.
Jr is used when the son is named after their father. II is used when naming a son after a male relative other than their father. Traditionally, at least. I understand a lot of patents will use II instead of Jr regardless. It sounds more sophisticated, I assume.
You don't get to have an opinion here..so not your business. If she asks, just tell her to do what feels right for her and hubby, then forever hold your peace. Don't talk about it behind her back. In some families that's normal if a bit outdated. Don't loose a friendship over a baby name that will likely be shorted to JJ.
YWBTAH. She's not naming him after her dead son. She's naming him after her husband, her sons' fathers.
This isn't some really weird name that is going to haunt him or get him teased. It's totally reasonable to want her son to be named after his father.
This isn't your business, and it's not objectively wrong in any way. The fact that she's been distant to you since your reaction to this is a great sign that she's not looking for your feedback. You don't have anything to gain here. I get why you might think it's weird, but it's not your baby to name.
YTA. The baby will be named for his father, not his sibling. It’s surprising to me that anyone thinks otherwise. He won’t be living under a cloud as long as you teach him he’s named after his dad.
Except it doesn't make sense for there to be a III when Dad is the OG. People will ask "wait, shouldn't you be Jr, then? And then have to explain that the stillborn brother was.
Yeah, that conversation will happen maybe twice in the kid's life. No one's going to give a shit. Especially as no one I know who's a II or a III ever says that. They just say their name is "John Jacob".
Worst case scenario, let's say that he's a grown adult and the bank manager asks "Oh, how come your title here says III and your dad is I?"
"I had a brother who was II but he died at birth"
"I'm so sorry to hear that"
That's the end of the interaction. Or do you think people will be following him down the street yelling "IMPOSTER! YOU'RE NOT THE SON OF JOHN JACOB II! BEWARE ALL OF THIS FOUL CHARLATAN WHO IS NOT WHOM HE PROCAIMS! HE WILL WILT YOUR CROPS AND CAUSE A POX UPON YOUR HOUSES!"
Agreed, who is going to cross examine this kid about his family lineage. I agree he is named after the father and literally NO REASON to bring this up.
Im OK with your reaction. You are only human
What I am not OK with is all the texting about your friend’s decision. That can snowball fast.
I would refrain from talking about it with friends. If asked “hey, is it true that Sarah is going to name this baby John Jacob?”, I would just say “correct. She announced it during the baby shower”
Beyond that, it’s gossip and gossip invites gossip.
Lips sink ships.
This one is really hard and boarders on NAH and YWBTA. I know she's trying to honor her child and I cannot judge her for that. But I also full see where you are coming from. I have known a few people who were either given the same name as a previous stillborn or similar and I have also seen that it can mess with with them. Imagine sharing a name with a dead sibling you never met. However, I still don't think it's something you should confront about. It is not your place
This. It’s not your place. No one asked for your input. I know some people that are jr/III and it rarely comes up in casual conversation, and frankly, no one cares.
she wants a son named after her husband. unless they go around calling him “Third” the number is just roman numerals after his name: John Jacob Surname III.
no one on the playground is going to ask lol, so i guess against the grain here but tbh yeah YWBAH
YWBTA the baby is not going to be named after her other son, he's going to be named after his father, whom both sons are both named after. Renaming used to be much more common, when infant mortality was higher. Common enough that there is a protocol for it, which these parents are following. It's up to them, not you, and if they are fine with it, you need to respect that. When the topic comes up, just be honest. You weren't familiar with the renaming concept, and you were taken aback in the moment. Enough said.
YWBTA. Not your place to judge or say anything in general, especially when they have gone through something like a miscarriage.
And I don't think it's cruel for the baby, it's his father's name too. It's not like at the roll call every day he will be called that, he will only be John Jacob.
YWBTA. Its a tricky situation to be in and there is no choice that is really the "correct" one. They're not naming the new baby after the stillborn baby, that's not how that works. They are all named after the original "first" John Jacob. So, they obviously wanted to name a son after that John Jacob, so they have two options either continue with that like they wanted or don't. If they do continue with that, then they also have two options, name the new baby John Jacob II or John Jacob III, both have traditionally been done in this situation, but they might not have wanted to do the former because its more like the second child is literally named after the first or the first child is essentially erased. An example of this I can think of from fiction is Paul and Chani's first child in the Dune novels is named Leto Atreides II, but dies as an infant, then they name their next son Leto Atreides II. It always felt like a weird way to do it, and Leto Atreides III would have felt more appropriate.
YWBTA.
Look at any family record from before about 1935. You’ll see eldest child Eliza, d. age 2, next child Eliza, d. age 12, last baby Eliza (survived). Historically, this is the norm. The only reason we’ve lost it is that infant and child mortality is much lower now than it was then.
Apologize if she confronts you. Then bite your tongue. This one is none of your business.
YTA.
This child isn't being named after his dead brother, he's being named after his dad.
How is no one else considering that this is the case? I wouldn't consider for even a split second that the baby is named after his dead brother. Unless OP has been told differently, the kid's named after his dad. Is that a bad thing?
George Foreman has like 18 kids all named George and doesn't even have the decency to number them. That numbering means that the kid is not being named his brother's name, he's getting his own. If the new child was called John Jacon II, then yeah - that's messed up. But he's John Jacob III. You know - the third John Jacob in the family. He's not "John Jacob II Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo".
So before you follow everyone else here's advice and tell a grieving mother that she's a bad person for naming her kid after his deceased older brother, maybe double check that that's what's actually happening. My guess is that it's not the intent to name their son (and have him live in the shadow) of a baby who was stillborn. They just want their living son to have the same name as his dad.
>I will eventually have to talk to my friend and she will 100% bring it up.
And you can 1000% keep your opinion to yourself. YTA if you don't.
Lots of people follow the naming tradition of I, II, III when it comes to boys. The kid's named after his father, not his brother, a continuation of the line.
If she named him JJ II, \*that\* would be a problem, as that would essentially be erasing her other son's existence.
I watch many grave cleaning videos. Seems like many families lost a young child only to have a later child named the same. If the name brings solace to your friend and spouse, why is it your concern? No different than naming after any other deceased relative.
NAH but you’d be an A H if you bring it up to them.
YWBTA. I have no idea why this even matters to you. Like he's gonna get bullied cause a 12 year old starts grilling him on the semantics of the correct "being named after someone" protocols. Lol.
He's being named after his father while at the same time not identical to his stillborn brother. Honestly, no one is going to specifically question the lll. It's just going to be assumed that it's after his father or grandfather, etc
YWBTA
It's probably a surprising thing to decide to name your baby, but she can do what she wants. Sure, a conversation with the kid sometime in the future about the miscarriage is bound to happen, but deciding to name her baby John Jacob III isn't a bad thing. People grieve in different ways, and her maybe she was always going to name her baby after the father. As her friend, you should support the decision, even if you don't agree with the name.
Maybe if the baby name was something outlandish that would either get the kid bullied or it named for a very cruel reason, but that isn't the case here. Support your friend, it's not going to ruin the kid's life, and it isn't cruel either, it's just a bit of a shock for obvious reasons.
YWBTA. She's naming the child after his father, not his deceased brother. There just happened to be another child in between them who also was named after his father. But adding 'the third' means he's the third one.
He's John Jacob III, not John Jacob II the second.
YWBTA if she has announced it, I seriously there is anything you can do to change her mind. Criticizing her choice will just drive a wedge. Of it was just "that's a weird name," maybe you could get away with one comment. However, a dead baby is involved. That has been horribly painful for her. If you criticize the name, she might take it as being dismissive of the baby she lost.
I would stay far, far away from the topic. Let her name her baby whatever she wants
NAH as long as you don’t criticize the name. IF she brings it up I’d probably say “ it’s not what I personally would have named him but as it’s your baby it’s up to you!”
I once overheard a little boy ask his mom, “ what would you have named me if my brother Robert hadn’t died?” Mom glanced at me and hushed the child and walked away.
YTA. The baby IS the third John Jacob. Some people might notice there isn't a second, but that's fine. There's no harm in noticing that the second didn't survive. Are they supposed to pretend he never existed? Literally no one is going to care, unless they work for Ancestry dot com.
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See, I'm going straight to hell because I immediately began singing John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt, and couldn't focus...
I thought that's where this story was going! Then thought, "wow, what are the chances of a Jingleheimer Schmidt actually existing." 😂
HIS NAME IS MY NAME TOOOOOO Now I get it. Cause they're brothers.
Thanks, I just spat out my drink!
You're welcome 😊
“We have to avenge my brother!” Gimli: “You have my Axe!” Legolas: “And my Bow!” Necromancer: “And your brother.”
And whenever they're about, the people always SHOUT...
There goes John Jacob Jingleheimer Schimdt.... DA DA DA DA DA DA DA
Omg what have I done?! I have no children and had to youtube this and now I am hoping my algorithm wasn't considerably impacted
This isn’t a Gen Z thing. John Jacob JingleHeimerSchmidt is an old time song. Ask your grandparents
I'm old and I got it from MY grandparents.
I’m old. Jesus himself used to sing it to me.
Mary and I were in kindergarten together. It’s a singalong song like 99 bottles of beer on the wall. Created to drive teachers, parents, and school bus drivers crazy.
I am OLD, and this song was old when I was a child.
I'm not a native of an English speaking country, plus regardless if it's a classic or not the youtube search shows modern animated cartoons for children singing this
It is a kids song. That's for sure. It's why modern versions are animated with kids. The song has been around forever, and is mainly aimed at toddlers and younger kids.
Or girl and Boy Scouts at camp!
I'm from the UK and I've never heard of this, honestly! Maybe it's an American thing?
I'm from the UK and I only know it from American cartoons (namely, the Recess cartoon from the late nineties).
I’ve only heard it now that I have kids. It’s come up on YouTube kids enough times for me to know it off by heart but I don’t recall knowing it as a child. Edited to add I’m not American so maybe that’s why
Did you guys have Barney and friends on your TV? I’m a little older than the Barney group, but this was one of their favorite songs to sing on that show. They’re called sing along songs, catchy and engaging but it’s really just a chorus on repeat, think about the song that never ends…
Want to know how I got revenge on my teem age daughter or her cousins or friends back in the day? When plucking my last nerve? I would get her and her teenage cousins or friends in the car. Doors locked. AC or heat on depending on the weather. Radio off. Then I would proceed to sing the song that never ends at the top of my longs until they figured out they either needed to calm down, listen or suffer me singing until me voice died. They never made it past the 15 minute mark before they started towing the line. She is 34 now. Her threat to teenagers is locking them alone in a room with me and playing the song that never ends. Yes she has loaded them in a car when they are fighting and sings that song until they apologize to each other. I am not sure if it's child abuse or just against the Geneva Convention rules.
Random related stupid fact: there is (or at least used to be) a John Jacob Jingleheimer Shmidt highway located somewhere in Arkansas. Like I said, it may not be named that anymore, but it was when I was a young kid (around 13/ 14. I'm in my mid 40s now). I only remember because I had a relative who passed away at that time and we drove from Northern Illinois to Russellville, AR at like 3am. When my mom and I got to this highway and saw its name, we both started laughing so hard we were crying despite the somber reason for our trip. I remember all the adults gathered around a table in said family member's home after the funeral, my mom bringing it up, and everyone laughing and singing multiple rounds of the song until we were all crying.
[Rocketman clip](https://youtu.be/h06Fh7M7vOI?si=W-ntJm3UEv-Xo2Zz)
You've done the Lord's work!! 🙌🙌😅😅👏👏🤣🤣🏅🏅🏅
Oh boy, you are in for a treat if you can find Disney's Rocketman with Harland Williams. He sings this song at the best moment in the movie, and it's pretty funny.
My mama would sing Jane Janice Jangleheimer Schmidt her name is my name tooooo! lol
You must be number IV
And also invasive thoughts of Disney's Rocketman.
That’s where my mind went, I can’t believe someone else has seen that movie!
Yes!! We’re out there! Just watched it with my kids- they’re in the “silly kid movie that’s not animated” phase so it was perfect ᵕ̈
Omg how did you type that teeny smiley face it’s so adorable lol
I’ll be gawd damned if I don’t wanna legally change my last name to Schmidt and adopt a baby (my birthing days have - thankfully - passed lol) just so I can name this poor child John Jacob Jingleheimer!
That’s what cats are for.
I’m sooooo glad I’m not the only one whom thought this!! Also NTA OP. When that kid gets older and realises his older brother had the same name ????? 😳 Reminds me of my grandfather. He was a twin. He was named Lorne Clayton and his brother Orne Layton. Seriously 😟???? 🤦♀️
People are also going to assume the kid had a grandfather named John Jacob, as the "III" means the third generation. I would totally get behind naming the kid Jingleheimer, though.
People who know everyone's names will assume that Sarah and John Jacob Senior are foster-parenting their grandson-through-two-instances-of-VERY-early-fatherhood.
At least they weren’t named Clyde (female) and Claude (male) twins. I took care of Clyde when I worked at a nursing home. She would sit by the windows and talk to her twin brother Claude. It was her reflection.
I knew male and female twins both named Dennis, with that spelling but the female name was pronounced "Denise". They parents thought it was cute, both Dennis did not, but the sister definitely got the short end of the stick.
This is my brother, Darryl, and my other brother, Darryl. :)
This made me chuckle! I work in the dental field, and I had a family of boys that were my patients, and they all were named Earl, but each spelled differently. When I called them back to get get their teeth cleaned, it was so hard not to keep it together calling out their names, and it was confusing too. They were Earl, Errol and Earyl. 😂
I taught and we had a family where all five sons were named Lincoln. Different middle names. I asked one of them if his mom called them by their middle names, and he looked confused and asked me why she would do that.
My grandpa Barry named his son Barry, and his daughter Terry. My uncle Barry got married to Carry. So I have Grampa Barry, Aunt Carry, Aunt Terry, Uncle Barry. And my mom’s name? Charlotte….. Barry, Terry, Barry, Carry and Charlotte. Makes no sense.
I'm Larry
Reminds me of an old joke... A woman is pregnant with twins and goes into labor one day. Her husband isn't home at the time, but her husband's brother happens to be there and he drives her to the hospital, where she's put under for a C section. When she wakes up a nurse informs her that she now has two healthy babies, a boy and a girl. But because she was under sedation and her husband is on his way, her husband's brother has picked the names for the children. "My husband's idiot brother! Oh no!" she groans. "What names did he pick?" "He named the girl 'Denise,'" the nurse says. "Hmm, Denise, that's not so bad. Pretty nice name, actually. Ok, what'd he name the boy?" "Denephew!"
I went to high school with twins named Shawn and Sean, which they pronounced "seen."
🥹🥹🥹
I don't want to laugh...
omg my parents great uncles are Len & Glen🤣
Short for Leonard and Gleonard I hope.
I know someone who named their kids (girl and boy) Nora and Aron. Both perfectly unremarkable names, the combination is kind of cute though.
Well, this is a nice thread of humans who all had a common thought 😅 I had to sing through it before I could finish the story 😂
Same here! Let's all enjoy this happy Internet moment, they are far too rare!
Psych S5E1 Romeo and Juliet and Juliet Episode: My name is Shawn Spencer. This is my partner Jonathan Jacob jingly Smith. You're saying his name is John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt? That's correct, sir. We used to share the name. I changed mine because of all the people shouting When I went out. 💚🍍💛
I love that show.
Non-American here, needed to search the internet on what's happening here. I see a giant purple dinosaur is spreading messages. It all comes together now. (Sleepdrunk and amused.)
The song predates Barney- but it’s fitting to be sung by him.
It's an old folk song. Chipper and short, so popular with kids (which is why Barney added it to his repertoire), but it’s much older than that show. My mom sang it as a kid in the 50s. My dad marched while singing it in the Army.
Mercy this is going to be a full bus
Move over, I’m getting on
His name is my name too…
And whenever he goes out the Happy People shout:
I thought it was..."the people always shout"? But, it's been awhile since I sang this.
It is
There goes John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt
La la la la la la la...
[удалено]
the 3rd xD
If his name was my name too, then the more the merrier
I’m more worried about the people who didn’t have this reaction!
[удалено]
That's exactly where my mind went...now it's stuck in my head.
Recess: Schools Out
Yep, immediately started singing it in my head. Takes me back to elementary school music class lol
Sorry...me too!
oh boy, me too
Did the other people shout!
Wow. What a coincidence, that's my name too.
I assume that was on purpose, though, since the story was about that being the fetuses' names, too.
Literally same I could not pay attention to reading this post because she put John Jacob jingle Heimer Schmidt. His name is my name too!
This is why we don't go out Sigh
Okay but me too
I literally skipped the rest of the post cuz I was singing that aha
I honestly didn't read the whole thing because that song immediately popped into my head and distracted me.
NAH This is such a tricky one. Your friend is clearly still grieving her loss, and maybe finding solace in being able to remember her first baby through his brother. This is understandable, and I cannot call her a butt. HOWEVER, this is not a good decision on her part. I can just see the toll that being named after a stillborn sibling will take on the coming child. I would be concerned, as I'm sure you are that they will not be able to develop an identity separate from their parents' idea of their older brother. So you also would not be the butt for bringing this up GENTLY with Sarah. Be prepared, though, for her to be very hurt and angry; no good deed goes unpunished.
This! Children need their own identities, grief is hard. A possible solution for them would be passing down just the middle name or just the first name but as a middle name so the child could still have their own identity but carry something personal and special too. Good luck to op delivering her feelings, it will be hard for recipient and deliverer.
I was named after my dead older brother 'replacement child syndrome ' is what it's called It's a tough gig because yr always being compared to someone who never failed. It can cause a range of psychological issues, some of which I have faced
After l lost my first child, my MIL told me that her in laws lost their first child and that they gave their second child the same name as the first was given. Apparently this was common in some parts of my country at the time. Not today. If I ever have another daughter, she will share the middle names we gave our first one, but that’s because I always have thought of doing this since it is family names in both of my and my husbands families.
Middle names are the way to go. Me and my twin have middle names from my mom's deceased parents. She lost them very young, 30 or so years before she had any kids so we were never "living up" to a memory, as she could barely remember them herself. Funny enough I ended up being a line cook anyways, found out recently my grandfather was a chef.
Even middle names can be tricky. My aunt's middle name is her stillborn sister's first name and she's always hated it, as (in her own words) "she's more than just her sister's replacement".
Yes, but I also believe how you talk about the names are necessary for it to not be a burden. I won’t talk about them as another daughter would be given the names after our first. The names are given after my grandmother and our great grandmother’s who had them. And our deceased daughter’s first name will not be given to another child. That is her name. That is very sad and I totally understand your aunt’s feelings. That is not how it should be and she is not.
My grandparents lost a child at two weeks old, my dad has the same first name (different middle) and I think it’s always bothered him. He always comments about how strange it is.
Yeah man, I mean I wasn’t even named after my mom’s miscarriage and *still* cried as a kid thinking about how my parents probably wished that one had lived instead.
Aaaaaaand this is why I never told my kids about the miscarriages I had between them. And won’t, until/unless they decide to have kids and need to know I’m a safe person to talk about miscarriages with (something my mom never did, and I never told her about them because I still don’t know how she’d react).
My first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage and I would not have my son if that pregnancy had come to term. I would have A child, and I would love that child, but it wouldn’t be him and I would never trade him for anything—not even that baby.
It's tough. I found out in counselling/therapy years back. It defo put the jigsaw pieces together
My daughter has definitely said these words to me before, and all I can do is repeatedly reassure her that she was wanted for herself, and that we wouldn't trade who she is for anyone else.
Thank god my parents never told me I had a stillborn twin until I was 27. I didn’t even think of it, but after reading this thread, holy shit, thank you mom.
Yeah my mom miscarried before me and used to make comments about if he’d been born my sister and I probably wouldn’t have been. Cool cool thanks, I needed that information at 8…
I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. I knew a family who did the same, but it had even more onion layers (the kind that cause tears when you peel too many). The parents had 4 girls in an attempt to have a precious son, then they finally had a boy who died a few hours after birth. This was 1982 I believe, and prenatal testing was much more limited so they didn't know that there was a genetic heart defect in play that only shows up in males. A few months later she got pregnant again, a year after losing let's call him Robert Joseph Jr., Robert Joseph III was born and rushed immediately into open heart surgery to repair the problem. Good news - their long awaited precious boy recovered beautifully, played football in high school, and as far as I know is still doing well. Of course I'm wondering how being named after his brother affected him, along with being brought to visit his gravesite and leave toys every holiday and birthday. I've lost touch with the sister I was friends with, so unfortunately I don't know any current details.
goddd having the visit the grave and act Appropriately Sad about the brother who lived for only a few hours, three years before i was even born, and yet i was never allowed to speak of him because it would make mom too sad…..fuckin sucked. still does 30-some years later. my mom so clearly embodies what a commenter above said, how my brother can never fail but i sure can.
Same here. My sister died 4 years before I was born shortly after birth. She was delivered on Christmas Day. I wasn't allowed to ask questions and not speak about it. Every Christmas we would go to her graveside but my mother never got out of the car 😪. Now both of my parents have passed and I keep her birth records safe and sound. Maybe that's why I was such a rebellious teenage girl, I could never live up to my sister who never failed. And her dying actually saved my life since the same complications happened with me but this time the doctors knew what to do.
>A possible solution for them would be passing down just the middle name or just the first name but as a middle name The problem is they're really looking for a do over legacy name after dad.
Yup.and legacy naming after dad is a problem to begin with, because our sons or daughters are not our clones. What if John Jacob III doesnt like sportsball? Is gay? Is trans? Let them be their own person. I can somewhat understand naming after a beloved family member like a grandparent, but naming after yourself IMO is problematic given people often struggle to deal with their kids being their own person; rather than a do over of their own life.
Yep. My husband has a legacy name (he’s a III) and his father was a deeply flawed, abusive person. He’s basically gone no contact with much of his family, and has considered changing his middle name and ditching the III to further separate from this “legacy”. Miscarriage, stillbirth, and loss of a child are traumatic events and should not be unnecessarily handed down to the younger children. I think the parents in this situation could find a way to honor their loss without inflicting trauma on their new baby.
If nothing else, the "third" designation means this current pregnancy is her husband's grandson. Each number is the generation after the original name bearer. This point is pedantic, but it's going to be "fun" (read: not fun) for someone doing genealogical research one day. This pregnancy isn't really being named for her husband, tbh, he's being named for the stillborn child. I hate to mention it, but there is also the possibility that this pregnancy does not make it. In some cultures, this is precisely why a child is never named until after they've been born ('evil eye'). As someone who has lost multiple pregnancies, my heart goes out to this friend of yours, and you as you navigate this. If she hasn't explored options, there are groups that give support and help process these things. If she's able to grieve the lost son, it may help her to stop trying to replace him with this (or future) children, as replacement syndrome is a very real and damaging phenomenon.
A baby isn't a do-over. It's a person.
Only to humans, to a bear its dinner. No but seriously, doesn’t that tell you how they view their child, it’s a possession…
Totally agree with fiercequalities comment. You could tactfully suggest that they honour her deceased baby, and her husband by giving her current baby the name as a middle name, either John Jacob, or even JJ as a middle name, knowing it is in honor of them. I wouldn't add the '3rd' bit to the middle name though as that's a bit much. But something like 'Alex John Jacob Smith, or Alex JJ Smith. ' I'd approach it by saying you're concerned that giving the baby the name as its first name may be triggering and a constant reminder of the baby they have lost, and this baby is an individual in their own right, and by giving them a different first name, they'll be recognising them as an individual with their own personality to grow into. But still be recognising their lost baby and husband with it as his middle name.
If the first baby had survived, would they still be calling this 2nd baby "John Jacob III"? I think that would be my first question to her, cause I suspect not, so in doing so they are mentally entwining the two babies instead of naming him as an individual
My thought too, if they are naming all sons they hope to have JJ plus their number then it makes more sense. They are just going full George Foreman.
THIS !! I saw a post from a different redditor who’s a twin. their twin died at birth but they survived. their whole life, their birthday was celebrated “with” the deceased twin. they would get upset because they just wanted at least one birthday cake with just THEIR name on it and not “Happy Birthday OP and Twin Name”. this child will live with that forever even tho they aren’t a twin. they’ll share a name with their deceased sibling for the rest of their life unless they change it once an adult.
That's kind of creepy. I can understand the parents wanting to remember this baby, but don't do that to a 5 yr old. Maybe have a private moment after the party
This drives me absolutely bananas. A parent's grief should not be foisted onto the kids this way. That sucks.
The other day I listened to a woman talking about her quadruplets and eventually had to explain that one of them died shortly after birth. I understand they’re technically not triplets but it still seemed strange to refer to them over and over as quads when there was obviously only three. Not sure if there’s a perfect solution for that but still.
But for a lot of men, having the name passed along is a hugely important thing. Plus naming him the III’d would be weird because everyone would assume that his father is the II’d. Poor Sarah, that must suck.
Does Jr carry the same weight as II? if so it’s kind of a way to have them equal?
Generally Jr. is used for somebody who has the same name as their father, and II is used for somebody who has the same name as a male relative, but not the father.
"Listen, I'm Zaphod Beeblebrox, my father was Zaphod Beeblebrox the Second, my grandfather Zaphod Beeblebrox the Third..." "What?" "There was an accident with a contraceptive and a time machine."
Interesting, I thought some people just switch to using II when there is a III, sort of like Sr doesn’t become Sr until there is a Jr.
My husband’s uncle is a II, even though he has the exact same name as his dad. Never understood why he wasn’t a Jr.
I've heard of Jr and II being essentially equal (or used interchangeably) and I have heard that some culture uses Jr, then II, then III, etc.
Who cares, children should be allowed their own identities
There were many reasons Vincent Van Gogh struggled with mental illness. One of the reasons: he was named after his stillborn brother and had to see their shared name on a tombstone all the time
You can't blame Van Gogh's mental illness on sharing a name with a dead sibling. This was a very common occurrence. Beethoven also shared a name with a deceased sibling. He was the second Ludwig van Beethoven. Look into Marie Antoinette's siblings, they kept using the same names also. Infant mortality used to be much, much more common and names were commonly reused. In our modern culture reusing a name has become taboo. Historically it was the norm. Edit: spelling
Van Gogh had a lot of problems. His name was the least of them Infant mortality was so high back then. It was viewed much differently. Sad, sure, but much more matter of fact.
Yep... infant mortality used to be so commonplace that parents would keep reusing names until they "stuck," for lack of a better word.
I heard that a couple hundred years ago they didn't even bother giving the kid a real name until they were past 5, because so many children died before the age of 5.
They practiced this in the Appalachians up until less then 100 years ago. they would choose a letter and the baby would go by their initials until the parents thought they were old enough for a name, some went the rest of their lives by the initials because the parents were like whatever.
Good god. I have a fairly common name. Think Sophia, Isabella or Olivia for little girls now but I'm an adult. And I have a top 20 last name. I was telling my nephew just earlier this evening about how 11 years ago I was doing the dishes in one room and the TV was on in another and it said local woman 27-year-old First Name Last Name died in a ...whatever newsworthy way she died. I remember feeling an almost out of body experience. I was the same age at the time. That was a one time experience that I happened to retell today. Seeing my name on a grave?? For a kid that should also be alive? Not just..your elderly grandparents or something? Holy crap
this!!! I lost my daughter. her name was Wednesday. I got pregnant again with another little girl, I named her Roslyn. I will never use either name again… Wednesday and Roslyn were babies. they were living beings. I won’t push who they coulda been onto who my next baby can be
>they will not be able to develop an identity separate from their parents' idea of their older brother But why? There are a million other factors that go into identity. Ask me who I am, and I'll tell you a lot of shit that has nothing to do with my name. My name actually does relate to the circumstances of my birth. But it has nothing to do with my identity. By this logic, using a legacy name in the first place would have been problematic. Yet it happens all the time, and people make it out just fine. The child's name has literally nothing to do with his identity as long as the parents treat him like a unique individual. Approaching this woman like she's taking away the kid's identity isn't just questioning her naming abilities. It's questioning her next several years of parenting abilities. Reddit has become so precious about names recently. A name is a name. If she's capable of raising a child at all, she's capable of raising that child to stand tall. Everyone's acting like he'll see himself as some sort of backup plan. As if he'll be coached to believe this from birth. "Now as you know, Jingleheimer, you were named after the dead child." Or he'll just be a normal boy with a normal name (he will go by John and meet several others) and a normal life. Some things just aren't this deep, man. We really need to step away from treating every single thing in a child's life like it's a gateway to trauma.
Hmm, I'm gonna say NTA because you didn't outright say anything when she told you, and you were taken by surprise, so I can understand if it took you a second to compose yourself. I would avoid giving your opinion unless she specifically asks for it, but if she does ask then I dont think it makes you an AH to say how you honestly feel. Part of being a good friend is being honest and giving thoughtful, constructive advice if consulted for it. I get that she probably is doing it to honor the first baby, but to me this seems to do the opposite- like she's trying to make a replacement John for the John she lost. Regardless, though, if she wants to continue down that road then you have to respect it and be kind about it, nobody but her knows how she feels and what she's going thru so its not fair to judge.
To me, it sounds like she really wants her son to have his father's name. Since she already used JJ2 on the stillborn, this is her way of still getting what she wants. I don't think it's a good idea, but to each their own.
In this case the friend could go with John Jacob Jr? NTA
John Jacob sr, have fun, fuck around with people
Right. It's odd to me that people think that she's naming the baby this to honor her baby that passed. It's the father's name. Why wouldn't you jump to her honoring the baby's father?
Maybe she should go with JJ22, as the second boy in the second generation :)
JJ v2.2 😊 So she can keep going with v2.3 if anything would happen to the next baby. Jokes aside, but yeah the comment with the question if she would name the new baby that name if the first had lived is spot on. Grief is a tricky thing. One can understand that she misses her firstborn and wishes he had not died. Naming the second baby exactly the same would not bring him back though. And as others have pointed out, would not be healthy for the second child growing up. Also the firstborn deserves his own name to be remembered by. A new child with the same name kind of erases the first one. Middle names is the way to go. Imagine if she had married a man whose first wife had died and he would want to rename her after his first wife. How would she feel about that? NAH but prepare for her reaction to be a bit out of proportion. You are right, but it will be painful for her to hear it. Good luck OP.
NAH. I understand the logic behind the name and as other people have pointed out, the child is *technically* named after the father, not the late stillborn. And because the stillborn was buried as "John Jacob II," it makes sense to feel as though that exact name was aready given and now cannot be used. But any time they or their son introduces his full name, people have a chance to ask, "John Jacob the third? Not second?" and someone (probably him) will need to bring up the death of the stillborn and clarify the name order. There's a chance people might assume the father is John Jacob II if people haven't met him, but there's a big chance this name choice might keep the first baby's death fresh and relevant for their second child's entire life. Other people here have done well to point out that this could, even unintentionally, make their second son feel that he is living in a shadow of his late older brother, but that can be solved by good parenting. It's not an inherent implication. If you bring this up to your friend, don't accuse her of naming her baby after her stillborn. You don't know how she's processing her grief, and this might have been a joint decision between her and her husband that they felt honoured both their lost child and their original wishes. The name itself isn't some ridiculous thing the child will be made fun of for, so there's no issue with that. So if you want to mention something to Sarah, you should tread carefully. This is a very nuanced situation. It might be best to start with saying you're surprised by the name, then ask how she's been doing with handling the grief from her loss, and whether this new name was a difficult choice for her or not (which might open her up into giving her reasoning for it). If you say anything about the new name directly, I'd suggest pointing out the same thing I did— that others might be very likely to ask about the name, possibly frequently, and ask if she feels she's ready to handle that, or if she thinks that's the best history to pass onto her second child. Don't tell her it's wrong or bad, just point it out the implications of the choice if she doesn't seem aware, and let them decide for themselves. It's a tricky conversation and situation but this isn't an r/tragedeigh situation, so if you're close with Sarah, I think gently sharing your misgivings might be kind to do, but there's a chance they've already been considered and your two cents aren't wanted here. There's a chance they would have named a second son the same thing anyways, and it's not every day everyone actually uses "Jr / Sr / II / III" unless it's relevant.
Realistically, wouldn't most people just assume that he's the third because his father and grandfather have that name? I feel like he wouldn't actually have to explain the origin often if ever
I would say yes, unless people know the father's name already. But it's not impossible it might be brought up, so it's good to make sure the parents are aware of the possibility and prepared to handle it. And if they are, then it still works as an appropriate name for their current child because it's not something people will ask EVERY time. But regardless, it will almost certainly remind Sarah and John of their loss, so hopefully they made this choice carefully.
It's not unusual for people who are Sr's or Jr's to leave off that part of their name unless the other person with that same name is part of the story, and they need to clarify who is who. Most people who know John Jacob sr. probably just know him as John Jacob; if he introduced me to his son and said "Here's my son, John Jacob III," I would just assume the father was a Jr. and hadn't mentioned it.
Also people might say “big John” “little John”. I have family on both my parents’ sides that do this.
When is he going to be introducing himself as “John Jacob, the third“? And how many people are going to know that his father is not John Jacob Junior? Worst-case scenario, he tells people that he had a brother who was stillborn with the previous name. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal.
Agree with you. I don't see anything wrong with the naming, and the "Third" bit will likely come up 2, 3 times in his lifetime. This only becomes drama if people let it become drama.
I feel as though a large percentage of parents willing to name their kids after themselves would definitely be the types to introduce their children's full first names, but fair point. I do think the name works fine, but I also understand OP's surprise and concerns. If OP and Sarah are close, I don't think it's hurtful to check that she's fully considered the situations where it might be brought up, because it will likely happen on at least a few occasions. And it gives OP the chance to have a constructive conversation with their friend given that it came as a surprise to them (and other people they know), so its a good way to explain their reaction without being hurtful or dismissive.
The parents maybe, but not the kid. He’s just going to introduce himself as “John Jacob.” if the parents can’t handle people asking where Junior is, in those few situations where people know that the father is not actually a junior, then the parents can obviously change up and just leave off the suffix.
Agreed. I immediately thought, “Well, it’s not a tragedeigh.” OP needs to tread very lightly here, or she would become the AH.
I agree. The name is technically correct as-is, and while I don't personally like the concept of naming children after parents, there's nothing inherently bad about it and people have been doing it for thousands of years. I also wouldn't want to name any of my theoretical children the same thing, regardless of whether any passed or not, but again, that's personal preference. I think OP's main concern here more stems from the implications of the "missing" John Jacob II, and as long as the parents have fully considered this and are prepared to raise their son with this knowledge in a responsible way, I don't see an issue with it. It's clear that "John Jacob" is just a name they really wanted (and still want) to raise a son with, and the "second/third" distinction could be a nice dedication to their late firstborn. If it was a name ONLY shared between the two children, thst would be a different situation. As long as OP doesn't make the conversation about their own opinions, I think it will be fine. I don't see anything wrong with asking about the decision and making sure it was properly thought through, it just needs to be done carefully or OP will absolutely be overstepping.
NTA. At all. I can already see this poor kid having to live in his dead older brother’s shadow his entire life, always being compared to the son his brother could’ve been. This is not a healthy way of coping for the mom either. She seems like she needs therapy if she hasn’t gotten it already
I agree. I feel like the baby should have its own name and identity and not be permanently connected to or associated with his dead brother. Also wouldn't naming him John Jacob III be implying that he is the son of John Jacob II?
I’m not sure actually. I know that historically speaking it wasn’t super uncommon to give multiple of your children the same name because they likely wouldn’t make it to adulthood. But in the modern day? It just seems weird to me. Well, even weirder than it already was at least
i can't get past the III part. when you get named the 'third' with the same name like that, that name was your father's name (he was II), and also your paternal grandfather's name (he would have been I). i can understand grieving, but to use the III like this is just not correct. never mind how it's related to a stillbirth of someone of the same generation. i'll say NTA if you are able to bring it up gently and know when to walk away without getting upset if Sarah doesn't take it well. you could lose a friendship, so keep that in mind too.
This is what I thought too, but I looked it up before posting. When (m) siblings share their father's name, it's I, III, IV, etc. It must have been common enough at some point for the protocol to exist. This usage is in fact correct. The most recent famous example of this would be George Foreman and his sons.
FDR’s first son Franklin died a couple months after birth and he named another son Franklin. It may have been common place when so many children died in infancy.
Technically, the first baby should’ve been Jr., not II. Jr is used when the son is named after their father. II is used when naming a son after a male relative other than their father. Traditionally, at least. I understand a lot of patents will use II instead of Jr regardless. It sounds more sophisticated, I assume.
You don't get to have an opinion here..so not your business. If she asks, just tell her to do what feels right for her and hubby, then forever hold your peace. Don't talk about it behind her back. In some families that's normal if a bit outdated. Don't loose a friendship over a baby name that will likely be shorted to JJ.
Thank you. That was exactly my thought; it is her baby and it's her right to name him whatever she wants. The OP should MHOB.
Just a reminder, that babies grow up. It could be inconsiderate to the *child* but maybe that's just me.
YWBTAH. She's not naming him after her dead son. She's naming him after her husband, her sons' fathers. This isn't some really weird name that is going to haunt him or get him teased. It's totally reasonable to want her son to be named after his father. This isn't your business, and it's not objectively wrong in any way. The fact that she's been distant to you since your reaction to this is a great sign that she's not looking for your feedback. You don't have anything to gain here. I get why you might think it's weird, but it's not your baby to name.
YTA. The baby will be named for his father, not his sibling. It’s surprising to me that anyone thinks otherwise. He won’t be living under a cloud as long as you teach him he’s named after his dad.
Except it doesn't make sense for there to be a III when Dad is the OG. People will ask "wait, shouldn't you be Jr, then? And then have to explain that the stillborn brother was.
Yeah, that conversation will happen maybe twice in the kid's life. No one's going to give a shit. Especially as no one I know who's a II or a III ever says that. They just say their name is "John Jacob". Worst case scenario, let's say that he's a grown adult and the bank manager asks "Oh, how come your title here says III and your dad is I?" "I had a brother who was II but he died at birth" "I'm so sorry to hear that" That's the end of the interaction. Or do you think people will be following him down the street yelling "IMPOSTER! YOU'RE NOT THE SON OF JOHN JACOB II! BEWARE ALL OF THIS FOUL CHARLATAN WHO IS NOT WHOM HE PROCAIMS! HE WILL WILT YOUR CROPS AND CAUSE A POX UPON YOUR HOUSES!"
this seems to be exactly what people think will happen looking at the comments
Agreed, who is going to cross examine this kid about his family lineage. I agree he is named after the father and literally NO REASON to bring this up.
My brother is an IV no one has ever asked him who he’s named after this isn’t nearly as common of a scenario as you think it is.
My brother was a III, and when we were kids, he was asked all the time.
> And then have to explain that the stillborn brother was. And the stillborn baby will be remembered and not forgotten. Is that such a bad thing?
My aunt did the same and named her son the III after Jr. was stillborn. Most people he meets in life has no idea he’s a 3rd.
Im OK with your reaction. You are only human What I am not OK with is all the texting about your friend’s decision. That can snowball fast. I would refrain from talking about it with friends. If asked “hey, is it true that Sarah is going to name this baby John Jacob?”, I would just say “correct. She announced it during the baby shower” Beyond that, it’s gossip and gossip invites gossip. Lips sink ships.
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This one is really hard and boarders on NAH and YWBTA. I know she's trying to honor her child and I cannot judge her for that. But I also full see where you are coming from. I have known a few people who were either given the same name as a previous stillborn or similar and I have also seen that it can mess with with them. Imagine sharing a name with a dead sibling you never met. However, I still don't think it's something you should confront about. It is not your place
This. It’s not your place. No one asked for your input. I know some people that are jr/III and it rarely comes up in casual conversation, and frankly, no one cares.
she wants a son named after her husband. unless they go around calling him “Third” the number is just roman numerals after his name: John Jacob Surname III. no one on the playground is going to ask lol, so i guess against the grain here but tbh yeah YWBAH
YWBTA the baby is not going to be named after her other son, he's going to be named after his father, whom both sons are both named after. Renaming used to be much more common, when infant mortality was higher. Common enough that there is a protocol for it, which these parents are following. It's up to them, not you, and if they are fine with it, you need to respect that. When the topic comes up, just be honest. You weren't familiar with the renaming concept, and you were taken aback in the moment. Enough said.
Exactly. Please keep your thoughts to yourself. She didn’t ask for your opinion.
YWBTA. Not your place to judge or say anything in general, especially when they have gone through something like a miscarriage. And I don't think it's cruel for the baby, it's his father's name too. It's not like at the roll call every day he will be called that, he will only be John Jacob.
YWBTA. Its a tricky situation to be in and there is no choice that is really the "correct" one. They're not naming the new baby after the stillborn baby, that's not how that works. They are all named after the original "first" John Jacob. So, they obviously wanted to name a son after that John Jacob, so they have two options either continue with that like they wanted or don't. If they do continue with that, then they also have two options, name the new baby John Jacob II or John Jacob III, both have traditionally been done in this situation, but they might not have wanted to do the former because its more like the second child is literally named after the first or the first child is essentially erased. An example of this I can think of from fiction is Paul and Chani's first child in the Dune novels is named Leto Atreides II, but dies as an infant, then they name their next son Leto Atreides II. It always felt like a weird way to do it, and Leto Atreides III would have felt more appropriate.
It’s none of your business. Keep it to yourself, the parents can name a kid whatever they want.
YWBTA. Look at any family record from before about 1935. You’ll see eldest child Eliza, d. age 2, next child Eliza, d. age 12, last baby Eliza (survived). Historically, this is the norm. The only reason we’ve lost it is that infant and child mortality is much lower now than it was then. Apologize if she confronts you. Then bite your tongue. This one is none of your business.
YWBTA. This is not your business in any way, shape or form.
YTA. This child isn't being named after his dead brother, he's being named after his dad. How is no one else considering that this is the case? I wouldn't consider for even a split second that the baby is named after his dead brother. Unless OP has been told differently, the kid's named after his dad. Is that a bad thing? George Foreman has like 18 kids all named George and doesn't even have the decency to number them. That numbering means that the kid is not being named his brother's name, he's getting his own. If the new child was called John Jacon II, then yeah - that's messed up. But he's John Jacob III. You know - the third John Jacob in the family. He's not "John Jacob II Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo". So before you follow everyone else here's advice and tell a grieving mother that she's a bad person for naming her kid after his deceased older brother, maybe double check that that's what's actually happening. My guess is that it's not the intent to name their son (and have him live in the shadow) of a baby who was stillborn. They just want their living son to have the same name as his dad.
>I will eventually have to talk to my friend and she will 100% bring it up. And you can 1000% keep your opinion to yourself. YTA if you don't. Lots of people follow the naming tradition of I, II, III when it comes to boys. The kid's named after his father, not his brother, a continuation of the line. If she named him JJ II, \*that\* would be a problem, as that would essentially be erasing her other son's existence.
My husband was given the same name as a stillborn older brother. If you look back at birth records it used to be quite common
I watch many grave cleaning videos. Seems like many families lost a young child only to have a later child named the same. If the name brings solace to your friend and spouse, why is it your concern? No different than naming after any other deceased relative. NAH but you’d be an A H if you bring it up to them.
YWBTA. I have no idea why this even matters to you. Like he's gonna get bullied cause a 12 year old starts grilling him on the semantics of the correct "being named after someone" protocols. Lol.
Keep it to yourself.
He's being named after his father while at the same time not identical to his stillborn brother. Honestly, no one is going to specifically question the lll. It's just going to be assumed that it's after his father or grandfather, etc
Mind your business. I have a friends (a couple) who did this exact thing. They don't regret a thing about it.
YWBTA It's probably a surprising thing to decide to name your baby, but she can do what she wants. Sure, a conversation with the kid sometime in the future about the miscarriage is bound to happen, but deciding to name her baby John Jacob III isn't a bad thing. People grieve in different ways, and her maybe she was always going to name her baby after the father. As her friend, you should support the decision, even if you don't agree with the name. Maybe if the baby name was something outlandish that would either get the kid bullied or it named for a very cruel reason, but that isn't the case here. Support your friend, it's not going to ruin the kid's life, and it isn't cruel either, it's just a bit of a shock for obvious reasons.
YWBTA. She's naming the child after his father, not his deceased brother. There just happened to be another child in between them who also was named after his father. But adding 'the third' means he's the third one. He's John Jacob III, not John Jacob II the second.
YTA- What they decide to name their child is none of your business.
YTA let them name their child
YWBTA if she has announced it, I seriously there is anything you can do to change her mind. Criticizing her choice will just drive a wedge. Of it was just "that's a weird name," maybe you could get away with one comment. However, a dead baby is involved. That has been horribly painful for her. If you criticize the name, she might take it as being dismissive of the baby she lost. I would stay far, far away from the topic. Let her name her baby whatever she wants
NAH as long as you don’t criticize the name. IF she brings it up I’d probably say “ it’s not what I personally would have named him but as it’s your baby it’s up to you!” I once overheard a little boy ask his mom, “ what would you have named me if my brother Robert hadn’t died?” Mom glanced at me and hushed the child and walked away.
YTA. The baby IS the third John Jacob. Some people might notice there isn't a second, but that's fine. There's no harm in noticing that the second didn't survive. Are they supposed to pretend he never existed? Literally no one is going to care, unless they work for Ancestry dot com.