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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because I'm refusing to help my cousin out of his financial mess after he bought an overpriced house in Shanghai. My relatives are really pushing me to help, and they're upset that I'm not stepping in. Even though I warned him it was a bad idea, they're saying I should use my savings to help him now that he's in trouble.
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Don’t help them? *Block* them.
You couldn’t help even if you wanted to. Helping or not helping isn’t even a question for you. Annny money you may be able to scrape together to send them will be like it’s going into a black hole. NTA
That is wise, StonyOwl (I am so sorry. I couldn't help myself. It's Monday of a holiday week, but I am still ashamed.)
I do feel that 1/2 of all Reddit problems would be solved if people followed the stuffy uptight old tymey advice to not talk about sex or money (Or, in Reddit's case, occasionally both at once) with friends and non-immediate family.
yes!
sometimes the old rules governing public behavior were very smart! Talking too much about money or sex simply ruins everything! Be silent and be happy.
Yeah, when talk to friends and non-immediate family, I definitely don't talk about how much I pay for sex.
I was gonna write, "I don't talk about how much I pay for sex with friends and non-immediate family" but then realized just how poorly that would come out.
The ONLY person in this whole damn world who knows about my net worth is my spouse. Absolutely no one else.
Also, if you live in a litigious society, that's another reason to not let people know how much money you have. People don't sue poor people.
I made the mistake of mentioning going to Lolla and my best friend's partner asked to borrow 215 dollars the next day. I said no and ended up loaning them 50 dollars they promised return in a week. They still haven't paid me back, nearly 4 months later. I didnt expect to be paid back but still tbh.
In the Current chinese housing market, the value of this property is going to depreciate massively, if it hasn’t already. He bought a loss, and money you give is going to be burnt up- and he is never going to be able to repay you.
Right, this is the problem that I told him 4 years ago, that crap concrete box was worth nothing as soon as something happens. But his wife, her family, and his kept saying that property is how you save money, it's an investment, it will always be worth more. Now look at him, the house is worth nothing and owes a fortune.
Beacause the home purchase is akin to a dowry in China where the rarity of available women make getting married a very expensive proposition in China. If he didn’t buy the house her family would likely not permit them to marry.
Since he lives in the US that seems unlikely. Unless he Wants to limit his bride psospects to native born Chinese families or the small fraction of ABC families who’d require that.
Depends on which region OP marries into. I know of people that marry into certain regions and they say that dowry in itself is about 80-100k usd and that’s before the marital home. Others could just go for the symbolic value and might be ok with $88.
I mean OP mentions being a teacher in the US, so hopefully his marriage prospects won't be limited to those that share expectations with native Chinese people.
as far as understand, housing was the only market people could invest in. it looked like it would keep growing as people started speculating: a ponzi scheme looking for the ‘biggest fool’. but the bubble is now bursting, and tofu buildings are being torn down.
Housing is a liability unless you are renting. It’s always a loss.
Yeah, I forgot how to spell the word ponzi when writing this but that was the number 2 reason I said he shouldn't get that place. It wasn't finished he had to mess with it during covid. And I've been to China lived there for a minute, housing construction standards is just garbage.
But the culture there says you Must own a house, a car, and like 2 iphones max pros.
In a lot of Asian cultures people don’t like “second hand” items, especially houses and cars. Most houses are sold as “毛坯房”, just the bare structure so the owner can decorate without having to strip anything. Even if people bought houses from someone else, a lot of times they would strip everything then decorate all over again themselves, so it’s “new”.
In order to marry, especially if his wife was from Shanghai, he needed a house in Shanghai for her parents to say yes. Even worse if he was from places like US or European countries. The houses in Shanghai 400K usd is pretty standard. Shanghai is expensive af. Housing market in China was wild before COVID (now it’s wild to the other direction lol). I wouldn’t really blame him but there is no way you can help him unless you have like 50k + extra savings.
My Mom was a realtor in Vancouver for 30 years. Vancouver has a very large Asian population. Most Asian clients were not interested in buying anything but a new house. Apparently, it has something to do with spirits and feng-shui. However, these people had enough money and are not sponging off relatives to fund their purchases. It's called "living within your means".
Yeah, China's economy is in deep shit....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDIkbCTf8A
Population decline, a huge demographic time bomb, faulty data that hid the problem, and property developers who borrowed billions to build houses for a generation that didn't exist....
> that property is how you save money, it's an investment, it will always be worth more
His family clearly lives in the past. With the population not growing rapidly anymore, this was bound to stop. And the overbuilding done in the past doesn't help of course either.
Yeah, I’ve read a few articles on how bad it is. Companies way overestimated demand and overbuilt. Too many people are stuck with deposits on units that will never be finished.
It’s waaaaay worse than that. The developers, including the now defunct Evergrand, were selling units that had not even been built yet. There are lots of people in China paying mortgages on properties that have not been built yet, and may never be built. At least cousin’s house actually exists.
Yes! That is just so terrible for those folks that got duped. It’s going to take a while for them to get out of this one. I read an article in NYT today about the govt dangling very small incentives on appliances and cars, but so far it’s not really getting folks to spend.
Honestly why would the cousin even accept a few thousand from a teacher in the US? He looses his house a few months later and he's burned through the family's savings. You're homeless and owe everyone money
In short way too many homes have been built, because it was the preferred way of investing/planning for retirement: have a house/appartement build, and then rent it or sell it when you retire. Because people don't trust the banks or the government.
On top of that the population has been aging and decreasing quite a bit, exacerbating the problem.
For quite a few people the houses aren't event fully built yet and the construction companies crashed so the house won't be completed. But the mortgage is still there
China practiced population control for way too long, limiting families to two children. Many families even refused to keep female children because they wanted sons to help with and take over family businesses and farms. Now there are too few women for the men to marry.
It's very common for adult children to still live with their parents, often after marriage as well (parents used to typically live with their son and daughter-in-law if their kids were married but nowadays it's pretty 50/50 whether they would live with their son + his spouse or daughter + her spouse). It's normal in Chinese culture to have multi-generational households.
This! The background isn't even necessary. Someone who is 6 months behind on mortgage AND jobless is going to need much more financial help than OP can give (or should give).
In Shanghai, it probably won't depreciate. It's mostly smaller cities that no one wants to move to. You can always find buyers in Beijing/Shanghai etc. 2.8 million RMB is actually insanely cheap for an apartment in a tier 1 city in China. That's why I wasn't surprised he called it a "concrete box." 1 million RMB in renovations seems standard as well, if a bit expensive. I thought this was $2.8 million USD which wouldn't really be that crazy for something like a 3-4 bedroom apartment depending on the area.
Source - Live in China. Have house.
He can't pay back the mortgage which is different than the house is worthless.
Yeah, per the law, even if he pays it off, he doesn’t own the place. And real estate in China is sinking. Just burning money at this point.
Maybe if he just lose it and step back for awhile, he can buy something that is cheaper than his mortgages when the dust is settle.
Ok gonna add onto this comment….nta but would give them $40 and be like this is all I had for my new car. If they say something I’d say yea I was talking about a new model car. Not a human sized car! I’m a teacher not a doctor!
"Annny money you may be able to scrape together to send them will be like it’s going into a black hole." This. My knowledge of China is limited but my understanding is that there's no such think as bankruptcy protection. The poor guy is going to spend the rest of his life in debt. Nothin OP can do to help.
NTA and don’t give them a penny. I’m Chinese and I’m familiar with these customs. These people are always looking for family handouts and won’t stop if you don’t nip this in the bud.
I have family in China that I’ve never even met and they’ve badgered us for years for money. The final straw was when my dad flew some of them over to the US to attend my wedding and they had the nerve to ask him for $20K while living here under his roof as guests.
My side of the family isn't Chinese but it's the same. My dad lost contact with a sister after something like this, because her husband was gambling and she begged for money because we lived in America and were "rich".
We're not rich, the US is expensive compared to old country. What they see as having lots of money was us just getting by as kids.
Not to mention that the Chinese housing market has been destroyed by out of control over investment in the sector, and building practices that are illegal in the USA, that are basically ponzie schemes. He would be lucky to sell it for half what he paid. At least the thing has already been built. There are tons of Chinese people paying mortgages on places that haven’t even been built yet, and may never be.
> and building practices that are illegal in the USA
That is a really big problem in China. A lot of those empty houses and high rises are ticking time bombs. They're absolutely horrible construction. A couple of them have simply fell over due to poor foundations. Others are crumbling before people even move in. Even if someone wanted to help out in return for part of the investment I would advice against it.
NTA. Someone needs to learn the harsh consequences of their actions.
Your family would crowdfund amongst themselves to help him out - but they won't. Says more about them.
You worked your backside off and deserve something for yourself. Don't give it to someone who makes rash decisions and screws themself over
and OP’s financial picture has no bearing on relative's bad decisions. In fact OP had advised against it, and def should not feel like they have to justify why they can’t/won't assist financially. And shame on those reaching out and trying to make OP feel guilty, maybe they should be more resourceful and help out more themselves? NTA
The one thing ANY financial advisor will tell you is to NEVER give/lend money to someone desperately trying to hang onto a house they’re severely underwater on because it’s just a thimble of water on a forest fire, they’re absolutely still going to lose that house, and you’re never going to see that money again.
He can’t afford that house and he needs to let it go. But ego is why he bought it, and pride is why he’s holding onto it. Do NOT let him drag you down with him.
For your family to expect you to give up money you were able to save as a teacher in the US is ludicrous. (You should be earning twice as much and combat pay, frankly.) It would take you forever to save it all again.
Tell them you do not have the kind of money that will make one bit of difference to his situation, he was stupid to buy a house so far beyond his means, he’s stupid to try to hang onto it when he knows he can’t, and he should either sell it or just let the bank have it. If they push back, block them, regardless of who they are to you.
Of course you’re NTA — unless you give him money, then you’ll be TA to yourself. Good luck.
He's f'ed either way. I don't know what they are thinking.
He could: Let the house go to the bank; they will sell it for less than a penny on the dollar and stick him with the rest of the balance. Or he can attempt a private sale, but he won't get a million for it. (Like 140k usd)
Also, yes, I want combat pay and hazard pay added to my base after-tax salary. Kids these days would have been buried twice by now, back when I was a kid.
They aren't thinking.
I had a kooky professor in an MBA class, he lectured us once on how to say no and when to cut ties with the stupid members of the family. He said a family member who understands money and saving and investments etc (and in theory we should understand finance when we get an MBA) is always going to be harassed for money by the stupid members of the family. And they won't be happy when you tell them that what they are doing is stupid.
You're right, there's no good answer for your cousin. He sells at a loss and starts over, or he sub-leases his home and lives with like two other families to make ends meet. In any case, not your problem.
I tried teaching, made it about 3 years and went tf back to industry. Good for you doing that job with the crazy kids and packed classrooms these days. And OP, you are DEFINITELY NTA!!
I think it was Steve Harvey talked about being hit up to cover a family member's mortgage, only to find out they were 8 months behind. His response: why did you wait until you were 8 months down to ask me?
Yea, that far behind it isn't going to help, moreso when he has no job.
.my husband tried to do this for his mom, sending her Everything he made as a young adult so she didn't lose her home. He had to stop going to college, work full time, and it wasn't enough. She lost the house. He couldn't afford to go back. And that was just from a thousand miles away, nevermind a whole other country with huge housing problems. Wasn't even that much either.
NTA. You warned him that it was a ridiculously bad investment. Now people want you to throw money into this ridiculous investment when he's so far underwater that a submarine couldn't rescue him? Just no!
NTA.
1) You don’t have it.
2) You don’t owe it.
3) Never put yourself in debt for other people.
4) Never give money you need.
5) Loans to family are often just a gift.
6) No is a complete sentence.
7) Block is a useful button on your phone.
NTA. You have to look after your bills to pay and cannot afford to pay for his extravagance. Can he sell it in the current market?
The thought of a $400,000 mansion did make me smile because here that amount would buy you a shack next to a toxic dump - maybe.
This made me laugh, I was thinking that I saw a trap house a few weeks ago that's worth about 400k in my town.
Sell it possibly but he won't get anything near enough to pay back even the decorators.
NTA.
All you had to say was- I don't earn enough money to own my own damn house.
So just reframe this: Sorry, I do not have the money to help, I am struggling myself to save for the future, so I can't afford to lend money or give it away.
And then, stop talking about it. Now you know not to tell your family about your money at all, and you also don't have to debate whether you can help or not. Your family doesn't know your finances unless you tell them, and you don't need to feel bad about not helping out someone when you don't have money to give away, or even if you did you aren't obligated to help.
This will go away if you stop engaging, and definitely don't feel bad about your family members bad choices. With so many people bothering you, he isn't going to end up homeless, just likely with a lost home and he has plenty of support to get on his feet again. Stick with "sorry, I am struggling to save myself, I can't help cousin out, but I'm glad so many other people have the means to help" and then don't engage in further conversation or judgement about it.
NTA - you won't do anything more than postpone the inevitable and lose your savings. The only time you would be T A would be if you gave up your savings and your safety net in this foolish endeavor the same way he did. Protect yourself, your future, and let your cousin face the consequences of his own actions like an adult.
Yeah. He lost his entire savings in crypto and was convinced he could get it back by paying the company by paying them the money they requested and in turn they gradually release it. We told him it was a scam. But he didn't listen, and Asian guilt is REAL. Actually loaned him 30, got 10 back, but I doubt I will see the other 20 ever. My mom has no clue & apparently he borrowed from tons of people.
Ok a few things.. 2.8 Mio. RMB for an Apartment in Shanghai is SUPER CHEAP. Just saying, probably wasnt such a bad idea. He typically should be able to sell it for a profit, although the current market in the economic downturn obviously isnt great. But it wasnt necessarily a bad decision. If I could have bought an apartment in shanghai for that price 4 years ago I would have.
That being said, him spending 70% of his income to return the loan?! That is crazy. It also means that 4 years ago he wasnt in a financial stable situation to begin with then and yes, that was a very stupid decision.
Bottom line is, none of this has anything to do with you? As you say, you dont even own property and now you are supposed to pay of other peoples property first? NTA
Tell your cousin (or family) to sell the apartment and pull himself out of the hole he has dug for himself that way.
This. It’s also perfectly legal for foreigners to buy property in China. And it is the standard practice for apartments to be sold bare bones— the buyers choose the fixtures, etc. These are essential components, not mere “decorations.“ I’m not saying OP is the asshole, but there is a lot in here that either misunderstands the Chinese market, or is misleading (starting with the title of the post, which is not in USD).
NTA. Donate one dollar. That's what you can afford. If family doesn't like that, you can say you offered advice that would have saved him $400k had he heeded it.
Make it some weird odd sum like eight dollars and forty-seven cents, and tell them it's what you arrived at as an appropriate sum after long and careful calculations. Refuse to explain what those calculations were, exactly.
NTA. With the Chinese real estate market crashing, many homes are now valued at way less than what they were purchased for, so he is most likely "under water" with that home. You can't help him. He is way behind on his mortgage, and most likely will never be able to catch up on his payments. Take your savings account and go buy yourself a decent vehicle like you planned to do. Your cousin buying a place to make his woman happy (plus expensive home bragging rights in Shanghai) was really, really foolish. The fact that those payments are/were taking up 70% of his take-home pay every month just to cover the interest payments was beyond financially irresponsible. He seems to be unemployed now as well. Those two need to downsize, start living frugally, reset their expectations regarding materialistic things, and start over without that house. Your family bullying you to help someone you don't even get along with is wrong. How come THEY don't make his payments? Are they now tapped out too trying to pay for HIS dream life? I'm hoping his cement house isn't a tofu dreg project, like so many of them are these days. How many of your relatives would help YOU if it was needed? I doubt your cousin would be one of them.
Keep your money. You sound like you are the responsible one here, not him.
NTA. Your savings is the result of GOOD decisions. His debt is the result of BAD decisions. His dilemma is HIS. You savings is YOURS.
While I hope he does not end up in a Chinese debtor's prison, there was NOTHING you did to put him there... and your savings, even if you gave it all away, wouldn't help much anyway.
NTA, you don't even talk any more. This whole "you have to give family money" thing only seems to work for some family members. Tell them you can't pay because you need a car and actually you need 50k for a down payment on a house. I bet and no one will be there for you.
If relatives are so concerned about him, why don't they give him the money? The family gossiping and blind obligation to give money like you're a walking ATM is something I hate about being Chinese! I don't know if other Asian cultures behave like this?
The entitlement of some Chinese relatives infuriates me! My dad has had several nephews, who range in age from 40s to 50s, be mad at him because he refused to give them money or he "only gave them so little" and I know it's been gossiped about. They feel especially entitled because they're in China while my dad emigrated overseas decades ago so he *must* be swimming in money.
Why it's even a question, is he your son? Because if not then you are not obligated to help and even if he would be your son you still could choose, you are NTA but stop asking silly questions and interacting with toxic people, block everyone who wants your money and live a happy life.
I know that other than me, his little sister and her husband are also getting these calls and the guilt trips. Are they asking all the aunties and uncles and cousins, I don't know. But I will be trying to throw some others on the bus to try and run away. 😆
NTA I have to admit, sometimes I’m shocked by people that ask a question like this when the answer is so blatantly obvious. I would literally be laughing in his face.
They're Asian, just shame them right back for foolish spending and not getting a good deal. Or suggest the relatives all move in so they can afford the place all together like a clan in the traditional olden days if they care so much about cousin wasting money. Don't buy a new new car though, you're a teacher, you can't afford it.
The very first person in line to benefit from YOUR money....is YOU! You owe no one any part of what you've worked so hard to attain. How much money you make and how much you have saved up is positively no one's business.
The people you should help, if you can, falls in this order: Children. Parents. Siblings This is your immediate family.
That everyone is demanding that your help a step-cousin is insane. He has his own immediate family to assist him. Blood relatives, I might add. The fact that you tried to warn him off the purchase for valid reasons and now he expects financial assistance from you is borderline insanity on your family's part.
So, no, you are not the Asshole here.
Buy that car you've saved for. And please drive it to all the family functions you attend with the stereo blasting so they all know you've arrived. In YOUR car.
NTA. I'm a foreign-born Chinese, and if your extended family is any like mine, I find that going on the offense is a great way to scare off these vultures. I.e. tell them you have only x amount of spare cash now, where x=amount you are willing to never see again but big enough to make this believable (usually more than 3k and less than 5k does the trick), and you will need x+25% more 6 months down the road because you got screwed over by your landlord/mortgage-broker and are looking to get out of the current lease/mortgage. If they offer to look over your documents, tell them you have friends taking care of that already and that you've spent money to have them take care of that, and any changes will likely cost more money that you will have to subtract from x. Then tell them that you will need their help in 6 months time for the same amount back and more. I guarantee you, should they agree and they likely will, they're not going to come back to help you with money 6 months down the road. They may come back with a ton of bullshit offers like helping you find a cheaper place, moving in with them etc (I have a pet, so that's my go-to reason as to why I can't accept this kind of "help"). You then go and circulate to everyone in the extended family that you are forced to endure this financial hardship further because of them (emphasize that you helped them 6 months ago since it seems to me that they love moral extortion, so I'm just paying them back with their own coin), and because of a "lock-in" (with any luck, the elders don't know what this means and are too proud to ask -or cook up some other reasons of your own). You now have a great excuse to shoo this particular vultures away, and to keep others from asking money of you. (since idk why but they care way too much about "face", so other vultures will likely avoid coming to you for help)
On the off chance that they actually come back up with the money without you asking for it, you just earned yourself a true family member.
Wow, that's not a half-bad idea. I used to get out of things by using how much of a disappointment I was. But one of the elders caught on to this and has since become more stubborn with me. Use their own face against them.
Ahh... The "now is your chance to make it up to us!" kind of self-entitlement plus a little bit of "you owe us!" moral coercion. Sheesh. I've to discover that as long as they care about 'face' aka appearances, that's their Achilles's heel. 人不要脸，天下无敌。
My own take with 'face' is that those who know the truth about me and don't care, are the ones who should matter, and those who care, don't matter.
Anyways, I hope you eventually figure this out!
NTA : You would be putting a bandaid on holes in a sinking ship. You will never see your money again and if you fall on hard times, the ENTIRE family is showing you that you're the only one capable of bailing you out.
I don't know what Chinese bankruptcy and foreclosure rules are, but the only way you could possibly use any amount of money to help your relative would be to help hire a lawyer or broker or whomever the Chinese system uses to navigate someone out of this.
No amount of money you or your family can get your hands on will end in your cousin owning the concrete box. The only thing any of you can do is help get him out with scraps of his life left so he can start over. If everyone in your family wants to chip in a couple hundred bucks to hire a guy to do that, I say, sure, toss a couple Benjamins at that.
What kind of person does that work? How do you find someone who isn't a scammer themselves? Is that even a thing?
Gawd, I don't know. But I know that throwing lots of money at your cousin the way people are asking you to will not help in any perceiveable way.
NTA
NTA.
This whole cultural thing where family members get to claim your money is insane. You put it perfectly - you're a teacher who can't afford your own house.
Stick to your position. "I can't afford to support another household since I can't even afford a house myself. I warned cousin about buying this house. This wasn't my choice and I can't fix this."
Even taking the time to write this up was a waste of your time. This kind of thing should be immediately dismissed out of hand. Moreover, you didn't mention how much real estate prices have crashed in China over the last year. Your cousin probably couldn't get half the price he paid for that box if he had to sell. This is why so many middle class Chinese families are now underwater in total assets, and aren't spending any money, along with the stock market crash and the zero Covid policies draining everyone's cash. I wouldn't send a dime to China to help prop up the CCP. NTA
Because we were having a big family dinner and I was talking with some of the others about cars and what is good for the money vs what's good for the status. When an auntie overheard us, and it takes just one and the entire family knows everything before the dinner was over.
Have a cousin like this. Her dad passed away suddenly, no will and the vultures started circling. She called me for help. I helped her through the probate etc. and made sure she received all her entitlements. It took a lot of my time and sanity. She inherited a house and cash from her dads retirement fund. Thing is, she is disabled and her mother is getting to the stage where she will need some in home care. I saw her start cashing out the retirement investments and spending the money frivolously. Hotels, taxis, travel, ordering in food, hangers on, all of it. Over the period of one year I warned her many many times how to better handle her finances to make it last and gave advice and offered more help. Nah. She politely agreed with my advice each time but kept doing it. Then about the end of that year she must have grown tired of my calls and blocked me on everything. I moved on.
About six months ago, and three years later, received a missed call then a text message from her asking for money to to pay for groceries for her and her mother.
I blocked her. Not going through that shit again.
Found out from other family members that all the money is gone, she has blown through the lot and only has the house left.
🤷♀️
Learn to be more pitiful, say your aunt heard wrong. You actually need money to buy a car cause your old one is broken and then turn the question around to ask them for money.
Sounds like you want a house and the car is a consolation prize. Offer to pay him what he needs and give up the car if one of your older relatives who owns a house gives that to you, in your name only.
no point helping dude. china property market is tanking and even Shanghai property is devaluing. if you help, you will be tossing money into the void. the apartment is nowhere near the value your cousin got the loan for.
now the interesting thing is what happens after cousin defaults on the loan. the bank will foreclose, auction it at a pretty terrible % of its org value because nobody is buying now. your cousin will have to make up the difference, ie the bank lawyers will sue him. allegedly based on what i hear from Chinese vloggers, his life will get even worse, e.g. cannot access his online banking (and you know they qr code pay everything nowadays), he cannot buy speed train tickets, his kids may not be able to attend school.
"Oh aunty when you heard me talk about a new car I meant a 1999 Honda civic, not new new, just new to me. I'm down sizing so I can afford petrol prices. But if you're all donating money please feel free to give me some so I can get a toyota aqua, thank you aunty" nta stuff them all. The absolute audacity of him to ask for money when he's screwed others over
NTA. Just say you don’t have the money to help and you’re not going to put your future financial stability and retirement at risk by draining your savings for him. The people coming at you about this should be told *they* are welcome to put their *own* financial stability at risk and “lend” to him if it’s so important. (Expect them to come back w “their situation is different”🙄) If they persist tell them you’re not discussing it anymore and walk away. Block them if they come at you on social media.
NTA, someone else’s bad financial investments is not your problem.
Even if you had more money than you knew what to do with, you’re not obligated to give it to someone just bc they’re family. Other family can give money if they feel it’s so darned obligatory.
Let your biological family rescue him. You are a teacher and you're supposed to rescue someone that bought a 2.8 million house? In what universe does that make sense? I would just start blocking them and directing them to bankrupt themselves if saving him is such a priority.
NTA. If he can't afford to keep the house he can sell the house. I can't see any possible reason why this is your responsibility to fix for him, he bought something he knew (or *should've known*) he couldn't afford and this is what not being able to afford something looks like.
It's really inconsequential. The real issue is you CAN'T help him, unless you're sitting on the kind of money where you can pay off his loans in their entirety. And depending on how China works, maybe that wouldn't even be enough to save the house if they have no income of their own.
You could just as well set your savings account on fire, it would do just as much good.
NTA. Geez. If you need reassurance, when you tell them you can’t help, that covers that you don’t want to help. Tell them “decent savings” is relative, and they made a bad assumption that it would be an amount you can afford to give away. Tell them to play the lottery.
Fellow ABC here. Send $100 or so. That way you can say you sent something, and leave it at that. If they keep harassing you, don't send anything to any of them.
As someone who spent decades teaching, I know how hard you work for your salary. The general public and your family don’t understand how difficult things have been these past four years. You deserve the new car, and I hope you can save for a home or can move to a more affordable location. (I did that and it was one of the best decisions I’ve made.) Don’t let them guilt you into subsidizing someone else’s bad financial decisions. In the future,I wouldn’t bring up anything about your finances at any family gatherings if they start circling you like vultures. NTA!
NTA
Casually say you can't believe someone thought you had money when you joked about having enough to get a new car, as it was a toy car you wanted for a collection you have. See what happens then.
I would suggest that with each and every request/demand, you point your nervy relatives to an account were they can donate to enable you to purchase a house. Explain that in the U.S., teachers are not well-paid, so you're sure they'll all want to help you out. Thank them in advance for digging into their life savings and emergency funds so you can become a home-owner.
If there's repeat contact on the same topic, send the same canned response.
If your cousin with the cement box bothers you again, let him know that you'd like him to split whatever donations he receives with you because, hey, you're family, and you want to buy a house too.
NTA
I would go the petty route and say that you are absolutely going to help him, and then send him $4.44, which is your monthly budget for charity. Tell him he can count on the same amount every month for at least the next week.
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I [M40] have a blended family and a cousin [M34] on my step-parent's side who used to be close to me. However, due to him moving abroad and conflicts over an inheritance, we no longer talk these days.
Recently, I've been receiving calls from various local and overseas relatives asking for financial help for my cousin. He has defaulted on his house payments and is more than six months behind on mortgage and loan repayments because his wife [native Chinese] convinced him to buy a house in Shanghai. He [ABC, by the way] had a good job in what should have been a stable company, but the virus f'ed them hard, and he has never recovered. Apparently, it seems he got laid off eight months ago.
When we were still talking, and he told me that he was going to buy this ludicrously expensive 2.8 million RMB house (about 400k USD) that was basically a concrete box. I told him he was insane and would regret it for many reasons, but particularly because he would never actually own the place due to Chinese laws. Now, four years later, he still owes nearly 2 million RMB on his mortgage since his payments have only been covering the interest, and near an additional 1 million RMB in loans for the decorations used to make that naked concrete box a place you can live in.
I am a teacher in the US, and I don't earn enough money to own my own damn house, so how am I supposed to give someone else money to pay off theirs when I warned them this would come back to bite them HARD? In the Chinese real estate market, you are always just one bad day or one conman away from losing three generations of savings. This house was so expensive (for him) that it took up 70% of his monthly income just to pay the interest on the mortgage.
Now, I am being harassed for his stupidity to help him out of this hole because I let on that I had a decent savings account. It's not house money, but I want to buy a new new car; something nice for once and not just new to me. Even my biological family is giving me grief about this. But I don't want to help.
Will I be the asshole if I don't help them?
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NTA. You don’t have enough money to save him. It would just go to waste. (This is the angle I would take since it doesn’t sound like your family cares about your money being your money.)
NTA. You cannot be expected to bankrupt yourself to help out someone else. Just say no. That's it. "I don't have $$ to give to you." You don't owe anyone an explanation about why you can't or won't loan them $$.
NTA you are asked for donations not loan... Also you cannot afford it. If there is no really hidden information here (like he lent you before a lot of money)
Also tell all people harassing you you can give money this cousin!
NTA. Your family should all start pitching in. a few bucks here a few bucks there. for sure that would help your cousin.
Or they could just harass you about it.
Sending what you have would only serve to help him keep a standard of living, it won’t get him squared up.
Essentially you’d be subsidizing his family while forgoing your own. I can’t see how anyone is better by this decision.
NTA. Just tell them you don't have the money. They wouldn't know if it is true or not if you don't divulge anything. A decent income in the US does not mean you are rolling in a bed of money. Also it is kind of expected that your cousin will be in a hole. He married a mainlander! I may get downvoted for this comment but it is the truth. They have a very toxic culture on marriage. If you're a guy, no woman would want you if you don't have your own house, own car, and a good degree and stable job.
NTA - you did help. You gave repeated advice to try and prevent this consequence that you saw coming, and he ignored you, now he can reap what he has sown. I'd stop talking to the family demanding you help because they obviously don't actually care about anyone's feelings but your cousin.
NTA You know he wouldn't have helped you. Anyone who is after you to help tell them that you're adding their name to a list that you'll be sending cousin so he knows who is willing to help. If they all get together they should have enough to pay it off. That is the only help he'll be receiving from you.
NTA
Just curious here - if you bought your newish car and had a crisis that put you behind on your payments - would these relatives be working as hard on your behalf to find financial assistance as they are for him?
NTA! Why on earth is YOUR savings account up for grabs to bail out a financially irresponsible relative? IT'S NOT. Ignore everyone's financial demands.
"My budget and financial planning for my teacher's salary does not include handouts for financially irresponsible relatives."
“Good to talk, good to talk. And you’re right, maybe I should help. Just read this to me, would you?”
“This just says ‘You and your cousin no longer speak. He is financially incontinent. You should give up your own financial security because I think you’re an idiot’.”
“Does it say that? Oh. Well, now that I’ve heard you say it out loud it DOES sound like a dreadful plan.”
NTA
NTA. You would be flushing your money down the toilet. Whatever savings you have is a drop in the bucket of what he owes and if he doesn't work, how's going to come up with next months interest payment? Tell your family to stop spending YOUR money on a lost cause.
I've a family member who could do with financial help, but she always earned more than me, & always spent it, eventually went to live with Dad for 30 years, still earning better than me, but without saving the money she didn't spend on bills (including food!). Dad died and she needs to live somewhere. I'm not offering a room in my fully owned house - wouldn't enjoy living with her but more importantly I know I'd end up paying for her part of the bills so I'm not having her live with me, nor will I stump up a wadge of savings which were hard earned by me to help her find somewhere (poor health & less earned than her, so didn't do things like holidays etc so I'd be secure). Any other family member I'd seriously consider helping - her, no. Luckily, none of the family has stuck their nose in and told me to offer my spare room.
We're talking making your own bed & having to lie in it.
First, thank you for being a teacher. We have such a shortage of teachers in my area, and I know that profession doesn't pay well at all. So, don't even feel bad about not helping your cousin out financially. Maybe if the person needing help was your parent, that might be different. A cousin you don't even talk to or like, no way.
If you're feeling petty, setup a GoFundMe that puts your cousin's business out there and send the links to your family giving you grief. See if they donate anything.
NTA but if you're a teacher in the USA I would recommend not getting a new car. It must have been difficult to scrimp and save that kind of money on a teacher's salary. Get it invested and ready for retirement friend. It was the saddest thing seeing my teacher's work two jobs in the summer and still struggling.
INFO: just out of curiosity, do you know how much a normal house costs in his area? You make it sound like buying that house was a huge mistake but, since Im used to american house prices, while 400k USD is more than I could afford on a single income, I know that amount is a common price for many decent homes here. Of course, Im sure the CoL there is much different too.
NTA in any case. Sounds like he tried to live beyond his means and there’s no point in multiple generations having to pause their lives to give this cousin money when he really should just move.
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Don’t help them? *Block* them. You couldn’t help even if you wanted to. Helping or not helping isn’t even a question for you. Annny money you may be able to scrape together to send them will be like it’s going into a black hole. NTA
And now OP has learned the lesson that if you have money, you don't talk about. Ever.
So true! People can’t want what they don’t know you have!
I'm going to have this put on a T-shirt.
That is wise, StonyOwl (I am so sorry. I couldn't help myself. It's Monday of a holiday week, but I am still ashamed.) I do feel that 1/2 of all Reddit problems would be solved if people followed the stuffy uptight old tymey advice to not talk about sex or money (Or, in Reddit's case, occasionally both at once) with friends and non-immediate family.
I talk about both with SELECTED friends and family members. The key here is knowing who to tell, of course.
You forgot religion!
And politics!
Amen!
yes! sometimes the old rules governing public behavior were very smart! Talking too much about money or sex simply ruins everything! Be silent and be happy.
Yeah, when talk to friends and non-immediate family, I definitely don't talk about how much I pay for sex. I was gonna write, "I don't talk about how much I pay for sex with friends and non-immediate family" but then realized just how poorly that would come out.
The ONLY person in this whole damn world who knows about my net worth is my spouse. Absolutely no one else. Also, if you live in a litigious society, that's another reason to not let people know how much money you have. People don't sue poor people.
I made the mistake of mentioning going to Lolla and my best friend's partner asked to borrow 215 dollars the next day. I said no and ended up loaning them 50 dollars they promised return in a week. They still haven't paid me back, nearly 4 months later. I didnt expect to be paid back but still tbh.
Look at it this way, it only cost you $50 to never see that person again. ;)
Nah, they're the other parent to my God daughter so ill allow it, I just won't ever lend them money again 🤣
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
In the Current chinese housing market, the value of this property is going to depreciate massively, if it hasn’t already. He bought a loss, and money you give is going to be burnt up- and he is never going to be able to repay you.
Right, this is the problem that I told him 4 years ago, that crap concrete box was worth nothing as soon as something happens. But his wife, her family, and his kept saying that property is how you save money, it's an investment, it will always be worth more. Now look at him, the house is worth nothing and owes a fortune.
Why can’t the wife’s family pay for it?
That's a damn good question. Her family is half the reason he bought the house.
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OP should just buy his car on loan immediately and ask his relatives to help financially because he can't afford to pay.
Beacause the home purchase is akin to a dowry in China where the rarity of available women make getting married a very expensive proposition in China. If he didn’t buy the house her family would likely not permit them to marry.
Given this logic, OP also has to save $ for a dowry for his marriage.
Since he lives in the US that seems unlikely. Unless he Wants to limit his bride psospects to native born Chinese families or the small fraction of ABC families who’d require that.
Depends on which region OP marries into. I know of people that marry into certain regions and they say that dowry in itself is about 80-100k usd and that’s before the marital home. Others could just go for the symbolic value and might be ok with $88.
I mean OP mentions being a teacher in the US, so hopefully his marriage prospects won't be limited to those that share expectations with native Chinese people.
Let his wife's family bail him out.
as far as understand, housing was the only market people could invest in. it looked like it would keep growing as people started speculating: a ponzi scheme looking for the ‘biggest fool’. but the bubble is now bursting, and tofu buildings are being torn down. Housing is a liability unless you are renting. It’s always a loss.
Yeah, I forgot how to spell the word ponzi when writing this but that was the number 2 reason I said he shouldn't get that place. It wasn't finished he had to mess with it during covid. And I've been to China lived there for a minute, housing construction standards is just garbage. But the culture there says you Must own a house, a car, and like 2 iphones max pros.
In a lot of Asian cultures people don’t like “second hand” items, especially houses and cars. Most houses are sold as “毛坯房”, just the bare structure so the owner can decorate without having to strip anything. Even if people bought houses from someone else, a lot of times they would strip everything then decorate all over again themselves, so it’s “new”. In order to marry, especially if his wife was from Shanghai, he needed a house in Shanghai for her parents to say yes. Even worse if he was from places like US or European countries. The houses in Shanghai 400K usd is pretty standard. Shanghai is expensive af. Housing market in China was wild before COVID (now it’s wild to the other direction lol). I wouldn’t really blame him but there is no way you can help him unless you have like 50k + extra savings.
My Mom was a realtor in Vancouver for 30 years. Vancouver has a very large Asian population. Most Asian clients were not interested in buying anything but a new house. Apparently, it has something to do with spirits and feng-shui. However, these people had enough money and are not sponging off relatives to fund their purchases. It's called "living within your means".
Eh kind of. In Indian culture for example, second hand is pretty popular.
Yeah, China's economy is in deep shit.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qDIkbCTf8A Population decline, a huge demographic time bomb, faulty data that hid the problem, and property developers who borrowed billions to build houses for a generation that didn't exist....
Easy then - since you need both house and car, start demanding money FROM family, including cousin. Loudly and repeatedly.
> housing construction standards is just garbage. That house may not even be standing by the time it's paid off. One more reason to not help.
Please tell me what ABC means in this context before I lose my mind lol
I'm guessing American Born Chinese.
American born Chinese :)
😂 right there with you ! Couldn’t focus on anything else written afterwards
American-born Chinese?
> that property is how you save money, it's an investment, it will always be worth more His family clearly lives in the past. With the population not growing rapidly anymore, this was bound to stop. And the overbuilding done in the past doesn't help of course either.
The First rule of Real estate—Location, Location, Location!
Agreed. The Chinese housing market is a nightmare right now. Cousin is going to loose everything. OP, do not throw your money away. NTA
Yeah, I’ve read a few articles on how bad it is. Companies way overestimated demand and overbuilt. Too many people are stuck with deposits on units that will never be finished.
It’s waaaaay worse than that. The developers, including the now defunct Evergrand, were selling units that had not even been built yet. There are lots of people in China paying mortgages on properties that have not been built yet, and may never be built. At least cousin’s house actually exists.
Yes! That is just so terrible for those folks that got duped. It’s going to take a while for them to get out of this one. I read an article in NYT today about the govt dangling very small incentives on appliances and cars, but so far it’s not really getting folks to spend.
Honestly why would the cousin even accept a few thousand from a teacher in the US? He looses his house a few months later and he's burned through the family's savings. You're homeless and owe everyone money
I have no idea about the Chinese housing market, but throwing (other people's) good money after bad is never a good idea.
In short way too many homes have been built, because it was the preferred way of investing/planning for retirement: have a house/appartement build, and then rent it or sell it when you retire. Because people don't trust the banks or the government. On top of that the population has been aging and decreasing quite a bit, exacerbating the problem. For quite a few people the houses aren't event fully built yet and the construction companies crashed so the house won't be completed. But the mortgage is still there
How can you overbuild housing in a country of over a billion people?
China practiced population control for way too long, limiting families to two children. Many families even refused to keep female children because they wanted sons to help with and take over family businesses and farms. Now there are too few women for the men to marry.
But don't they still need somewhere to live? Do both men & women stay with parents until they marry?
It's very common for adult children to still live with their parents, often after marriage as well (parents used to typically live with their son and daughter-in-law if their kids were married but nowadays it's pretty 50/50 whether they would live with their son + his spouse or daughter + her spouse). It's normal in Chinese culture to have multi-generational households.
This! The background isn't even necessary. Someone who is 6 months behind on mortgage AND jobless is going to need much more financial help than OP can give (or should give).
In Shanghai, it probably won't depreciate. It's mostly smaller cities that no one wants to move to. You can always find buyers in Beijing/Shanghai etc. 2.8 million RMB is actually insanely cheap for an apartment in a tier 1 city in China. That's why I wasn't surprised he called it a "concrete box." 1 million RMB in renovations seems standard as well, if a bit expensive. I thought this was $2.8 million USD which wouldn't really be that crazy for something like a 3-4 bedroom apartment depending on the area. Source - Live in China. Have house. He can't pay back the mortgage which is different than the house is worthless.
"I don't have the excess money to fix YOUR mistake".
Agree. It sounds like the money will just be going into a pit and helping no one other than the lender.
Yeah, per the law, even if he pays it off, he doesn’t own the place. And real estate in China is sinking. Just burning money at this point. Maybe if he just lose it and step back for awhile, he can buy something that is cheaper than his mortgages when the dust is settle.
Ok gonna add onto this comment….nta but would give them $40 and be like this is all I had for my new car. If they say something I’d say yea I was talking about a new model car. Not a human sized car! I’m a teacher not a doctor!
"Annny money you may be able to scrape together to send them will be like it’s going into a black hole." This. My knowledge of China is limited but my understanding is that there's no such think as bankruptcy protection. The poor guy is going to spend the rest of his life in debt. Nothin OP can do to help.
Teacher salary and you were able to save? Love yourself with a new car first!
If you send any money it’s not going to the apartment. It’s going to his wife and him to show off they still have money. NTA.
No no no flip the script! Tell them you're in for financial straits and ask them for help now, you only need $10k. Watch them scatter.
Exactly! Asian people love guilt trapping others. So try to stay away from your relatives as much as you can OP
If they want to take a collection they should send it to the relative that’s financially responsible and in a rough patch due to no fault of his own.
This! Agreed 👍
NTA and don’t give them a penny. I’m Chinese and I’m familiar with these customs. These people are always looking for family handouts and won’t stop if you don’t nip this in the bud. I have family in China that I’ve never even met and they’ve badgered us for years for money. The final straw was when my dad flew some of them over to the US to attend my wedding and they had the nerve to ask him for $20K while living here under his roof as guests.
My side of the family isn't Chinese but it's the same. My dad lost contact with a sister after something like this, because her husband was gambling and she begged for money because we lived in America and were "rich". We're not rich, the US is expensive compared to old country. What they see as having lots of money was us just getting by as kids.
I’m Chinese and the best thing to do is laugh at these people and act like they’re beneath you. It pisses them off
Not to mention that the Chinese housing market has been destroyed by out of control over investment in the sector, and building practices that are illegal in the USA, that are basically ponzie schemes. He would be lucky to sell it for half what he paid. At least the thing has already been built. There are tons of Chinese people paying mortgages on places that haven’t even been built yet, and may never be.
> and building practices that are illegal in the USA That is a really big problem in China. A lot of those empty houses and high rises are ticking time bombs. They're absolutely horrible construction. A couple of them have simply fell over due to poor foundations. Others are crumbling before people even move in. Even if someone wanted to help out in return for part of the investment I would advice against it.
Yea, they have a word for it, “tofu dregs”. Google it, you will be shocked.
Holy fuck. No, do NOT Google that. That is terrifying.
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Even if OP had not warned him - heck, even if he HAD warned him - it would not be his responsibility to bail him out.
NTA. Someone needs to learn the harsh consequences of their actions. Your family would crowdfund amongst themselves to help him out - but they won't. Says more about them. You worked your backside off and deserve something for yourself. Don't give it to someone who makes rash decisions and screws themself over
NTA - you are not an AH for not funding someone’s poor financial decisions
and OP’s financial picture has no bearing on relative's bad decisions. In fact OP had advised against it, and def should not feel like they have to justify why they can’t/won't assist financially. And shame on those reaching out and trying to make OP feel guilty, maybe they should be more resourceful and help out more themselves? NTA
The one thing ANY financial advisor will tell you is to NEVER give/lend money to someone desperately trying to hang onto a house they’re severely underwater on because it’s just a thimble of water on a forest fire, they’re absolutely still going to lose that house, and you’re never going to see that money again. He can’t afford that house and he needs to let it go. But ego is why he bought it, and pride is why he’s holding onto it. Do NOT let him drag you down with him. For your family to expect you to give up money you were able to save as a teacher in the US is ludicrous. (You should be earning twice as much and combat pay, frankly.) It would take you forever to save it all again. Tell them you do not have the kind of money that will make one bit of difference to his situation, he was stupid to buy a house so far beyond his means, he’s stupid to try to hang onto it when he knows he can’t, and he should either sell it or just let the bank have it. If they push back, block them, regardless of who they are to you. Of course you’re NTA — unless you give him money, then you’ll be TA to yourself. Good luck.
He's f'ed either way. I don't know what they are thinking. He could: Let the house go to the bank; they will sell it for less than a penny on the dollar and stick him with the rest of the balance. Or he can attempt a private sale, but he won't get a million for it. (Like 140k usd) Also, yes, I want combat pay and hazard pay added to my base after-tax salary. Kids these days would have been buried twice by now, back when I was a kid.
They aren't thinking. I had a kooky professor in an MBA class, he lectured us once on how to say no and when to cut ties with the stupid members of the family. He said a family member who understands money and saving and investments etc (and in theory we should understand finance when we get an MBA) is always going to be harassed for money by the stupid members of the family. And they won't be happy when you tell them that what they are doing is stupid.
That professor doesn’t sound kooky at all. I think the correct word would be ‘wise’.
You're right, there's no good answer for your cousin. He sells at a loss and starts over, or he sub-leases his home and lives with like two other families to make ends meet. In any case, not your problem.
I tried teaching, made it about 3 years and went tf back to industry. Good for you doing that job with the crazy kids and packed classrooms these days. And OP, you are DEFINITELY NTA!!
I think it was Steve Harvey talked about being hit up to cover a family member's mortgage, only to find out they were 8 months behind. His response: why did you wait until you were 8 months down to ask me?
It will only delay the foreclosure not stop it!
Exactly… you’re basically just delaying the inevitable. Keep your money. This is a ridiculous ask of them.
Yea, that far behind it isn't going to help, moreso when he has no job. .my husband tried to do this for his mom, sending her Everything he made as a young adult so she didn't lose her home. He had to stop going to college, work full time, and it wasn't enough. She lost the house. He couldn't afford to go back. And that was just from a thousand miles away, nevermind a whole other country with huge housing problems. Wasn't even that much either.
NTA. You warned him that it was a ridiculously bad investment. Now people want you to throw money into this ridiculous investment when he's so far underwater that a submarine couldn't rescue him? Just no!
Their poor financial decisions are not your obligation to fix. NTA
NTA. Remember that old saying: don’t set yourself on fire to keep others warm.
NTA He needs to sell the property pronto. You don't have the money to help. Block them all.
NTA. 1) You don’t have it. 2) You don’t owe it. 3) Never put yourself in debt for other people. 4) Never give money you need. 5) Loans to family are often just a gift. 6) No is a complete sentence. 7) Block is a useful button on your phone.
NTA. You have to look after your bills to pay and cannot afford to pay for his extravagance. Can he sell it in the current market? The thought of a $400,000 mansion did make me smile because here that amount would buy you a shack next to a toxic dump - maybe.
This made me laugh, I was thinking that I saw a trap house a few weeks ago that's worth about 400k in my town. Sell it possibly but he won't get anything near enough to pay back even the decorators.
NTA. All you had to say was- I don't earn enough money to own my own damn house. So just reframe this: Sorry, I do not have the money to help, I am struggling myself to save for the future, so I can't afford to lend money or give it away. And then, stop talking about it. Now you know not to tell your family about your money at all, and you also don't have to debate whether you can help or not. Your family doesn't know your finances unless you tell them, and you don't need to feel bad about not helping out someone when you don't have money to give away, or even if you did you aren't obligated to help. This will go away if you stop engaging, and definitely don't feel bad about your family members bad choices. With so many people bothering you, he isn't going to end up homeless, just likely with a lost home and he has plenty of support to get on his feet again. Stick with "sorry, I am struggling to save myself, I can't help cousin out, but I'm glad so many other people have the means to help" and then don't engage in further conversation or judgement about it.
Do NOT JADE. Just say no.
NTA - you won't do anything more than postpone the inevitable and lose your savings. The only time you would be T A would be if you gave up your savings and your safety net in this foolish endeavor the same way he did. Protect yourself, your future, and let your cousin face the consequences of his own actions like an adult.
I'm not familiar with any culture in which you have the slightest obligation here. NTA.
It's called the culture of entitlement to others money. NTA ofc
What’s ABC?
American / Australian Born Chinese. From context clues, it’s the first one.
I thought they meant they worked for Google 😂
NTA. -Taiwanese girl who is owed 20k by an "uncle" who can't pay it back
That sucks, I hope you can get the "uncle" to pay it back. These people who day their family suck.
Yeah. He lost his entire savings in crypto and was convinced he could get it back by paying the company by paying them the money they requested and in turn they gradually release it. We told him it was a scam. But he didn't listen, and Asian guilt is REAL. Actually loaned him 30, got 10 back, but I doubt I will see the other 20 ever. My mom has no clue & apparently he borrowed from tons of people.
If your family is so concerned then they can help him financially. Not your circus, not your monkeys.
NTA. When they call to harass you, tell them they could help fund his bad decisions.
Ok a few things.. 2.8 Mio. RMB for an Apartment in Shanghai is SUPER CHEAP. Just saying, probably wasnt such a bad idea. He typically should be able to sell it for a profit, although the current market in the economic downturn obviously isnt great. But it wasnt necessarily a bad decision. If I could have bought an apartment in shanghai for that price 4 years ago I would have. That being said, him spending 70% of his income to return the loan?! That is crazy. It also means that 4 years ago he wasnt in a financial stable situation to begin with then and yes, that was a very stupid decision. Bottom line is, none of this has anything to do with you? As you say, you dont even own property and now you are supposed to pay of other peoples property first? NTA Tell your cousin (or family) to sell the apartment and pull himself out of the hole he has dug for himself that way.
This. It’s also perfectly legal for foreigners to buy property in China. And it is the standard practice for apartments to be sold bare bones— the buyers choose the fixtures, etc. These are essential components, not mere “decorations.“ I’m not saying OP is the asshole, but there is a lot in here that either misunderstands the Chinese market, or is misleading (starting with the title of the post, which is not in USD).
When the relatives phone you ask them how much they are giving to help
Ask them when are they buying a house for you?
NTA. Donate one dollar. That's what you can afford. If family doesn't like that, you can say you offered advice that would have saved him $400k had he heeded it.
Hahaha 😆 I love this petty thinking I might do just that. Piss everyone off so they leave me the F alone.
Make it some weird odd sum like eight dollars and forty-seven cents, and tell them it's what you arrived at as an appropriate sum after long and careful calculations. Refuse to explain what those calculations were, exactly.
NTA. With the Chinese real estate market crashing, many homes are now valued at way less than what they were purchased for, so he is most likely "under water" with that home. You can't help him. He is way behind on his mortgage, and most likely will never be able to catch up on his payments. Take your savings account and go buy yourself a decent vehicle like you planned to do. Your cousin buying a place to make his woman happy (plus expensive home bragging rights in Shanghai) was really, really foolish. The fact that those payments are/were taking up 70% of his take-home pay every month just to cover the interest payments was beyond financially irresponsible. He seems to be unemployed now as well. Those two need to downsize, start living frugally, reset their expectations regarding materialistic things, and start over without that house. Your family bullying you to help someone you don't even get along with is wrong. How come THEY don't make his payments? Are they now tapped out too trying to pay for HIS dream life? I'm hoping his cement house isn't a tofu dreg project, like so many of them are these days. How many of your relatives would help YOU if it was needed? I doubt your cousin would be one of them. Keep your money. You sound like you are the responsible one here, not him.
Don't help. Stop taking their calls. You do you , you earned it ❤️
NTA. Your savings is the result of GOOD decisions. His debt is the result of BAD decisions. His dilemma is HIS. You savings is YOURS. While I hope he does not end up in a Chinese debtor's prison, there was NOTHING you did to put him there... and your savings, even if you gave it all away, wouldn't help much anyway.
But you’re a rich American teacher. Now theres an oxymoron. NTA
NTA, you don't even talk any more. This whole "you have to give family money" thing only seems to work for some family members. Tell them you can't pay because you need a car and actually you need 50k for a down payment on a house. I bet and no one will be there for you.
If relatives are so concerned about him, why don't they give him the money? The family gossiping and blind obligation to give money like you're a walking ATM is something I hate about being Chinese! I don't know if other Asian cultures behave like this?
The entitlement of some Chinese relatives infuriates me! My dad has had several nephews, who range in age from 40s to 50s, be mad at him because he refused to give them money or he "only gave them so little" and I know it's been gossiped about. They feel especially entitled because they're in China while my dad emigrated overseas decades ago so he *must* be swimming in money.
Why it's even a question, is he your son? Because if not then you are not obligated to help and even if he would be your son you still could choose, you are NTA but stop asking silly questions and interacting with toxic people, block everyone who wants your money and live a happy life.
If your family is so concerned for him then why aren't they taking up a collection to help him?? Ask them that. Updates please. Lol.
I know that other than me, his little sister and her husband are also getting these calls and the guilt trips. Are they asking all the aunties and uncles and cousins, I don't know. But I will be trying to throw some others on the bus to try and run away. 😆
Ask him how much money they have collected to give them
NTA I have to admit, sometimes I’m shocked by people that ask a question like this when the answer is so blatantly obvious. I would literally be laughing in his face.
NTA. And you need to suddenly announce that you have a huge unexpected expense and you need help from your family.
They're Asian, just shame them right back for foolish spending and not getting a good deal. Or suggest the relatives all move in so they can afford the place all together like a clan in the traditional olden days if they care so much about cousin wasting money. Don't buy a new new car though, you're a teacher, you can't afford it.
The very first person in line to benefit from YOUR money....is YOU! You owe no one any part of what you've worked so hard to attain. How much money you make and how much you have saved up is positively no one's business. The people you should help, if you can, falls in this order: Children. Parents. Siblings This is your immediate family. That everyone is demanding that your help a step-cousin is insane. He has his own immediate family to assist him. Blood relatives, I might add. The fact that you tried to warn him off the purchase for valid reasons and now he expects financial assistance from you is borderline insanity on your family's part. So, no, you are not the Asshole here. Buy that car you've saved for. And please drive it to all the family functions you attend with the stereo blasting so they all know you've arrived. In YOUR car.
NTA. I'm a foreign-born Chinese, and if your extended family is any like mine, I find that going on the offense is a great way to scare off these vultures. I.e. tell them you have only x amount of spare cash now, where x=amount you are willing to never see again but big enough to make this believable (usually more than 3k and less than 5k does the trick), and you will need x+25% more 6 months down the road because you got screwed over by your landlord/mortgage-broker and are looking to get out of the current lease/mortgage. If they offer to look over your documents, tell them you have friends taking care of that already and that you've spent money to have them take care of that, and any changes will likely cost more money that you will have to subtract from x. Then tell them that you will need their help in 6 months time for the same amount back and more. I guarantee you, should they agree and they likely will, they're not going to come back to help you with money 6 months down the road. They may come back with a ton of bullshit offers like helping you find a cheaper place, moving in with them etc (I have a pet, so that's my go-to reason as to why I can't accept this kind of "help"). You then go and circulate to everyone in the extended family that you are forced to endure this financial hardship further because of them (emphasize that you helped them 6 months ago since it seems to me that they love moral extortion, so I'm just paying them back with their own coin), and because of a "lock-in" (with any luck, the elders don't know what this means and are too proud to ask -or cook up some other reasons of your own). You now have a great excuse to shoo this particular vultures away, and to keep others from asking money of you. (since idk why but they care way too much about "face", so other vultures will likely avoid coming to you for help) On the off chance that they actually come back up with the money without you asking for it, you just earned yourself a true family member.
Wow, that's not a half-bad idea. I used to get out of things by using how much of a disappointment I was. But one of the elders caught on to this and has since become more stubborn with me. Use their own face against them.
Ahh... The "now is your chance to make it up to us!" kind of self-entitlement plus a little bit of "you owe us!" moral coercion. Sheesh. I've to discover that as long as they care about 'face' aka appearances, that's their Achilles's heel. 人不要脸，天下无敌。 My own take with 'face' is that those who know the truth about me and don't care, are the ones who should matter, and those who care, don't matter. Anyways, I hope you eventually figure this out!
Definitely NTA!! Stop answering their calls!
NTA : You would be putting a bandaid on holes in a sinking ship. You will never see your money again and if you fall on hard times, the ENTIRE family is showing you that you're the only one capable of bailing you out.
I don't know what Chinese bankruptcy and foreclosure rules are, but the only way you could possibly use any amount of money to help your relative would be to help hire a lawyer or broker or whomever the Chinese system uses to navigate someone out of this. No amount of money you or your family can get your hands on will end in your cousin owning the concrete box. The only thing any of you can do is help get him out with scraps of his life left so he can start over. If everyone in your family wants to chip in a couple hundred bucks to hire a guy to do that, I say, sure, toss a couple Benjamins at that. What kind of person does that work? How do you find someone who isn't a scammer themselves? Is that even a thing? Gawd, I don't know. But I know that throwing lots of money at your cousin the way people are asking you to will not help in any perceiveable way. NTA
NTA. This whole cultural thing where family members get to claim your money is insane. You put it perfectly - you're a teacher who can't afford your own house. Stick to your position. "I can't afford to support another household since I can't even afford a house myself. I warned cousin about buying this house. This wasn't my choice and I can't fix this."
Even taking the time to write this up was a waste of your time. This kind of thing should be immediately dismissed out of hand. Moreover, you didn't mention how much real estate prices have crashed in China over the last year. Your cousin probably couldn't get half the price he paid for that box if he had to sell. This is why so many middle class Chinese families are now underwater in total assets, and aren't spending any money, along with the stock market crash and the zero Covid policies draining everyone's cash. I wouldn't send a dime to China to help prop up the CCP. NTA
Why do they know about your savings? Don't give them anything, block them! Let them pay! NTA
Because we were having a big family dinner and I was talking with some of the others about cars and what is good for the money vs what's good for the status. When an auntie overheard us, and it takes just one and the entire family knows everything before the dinner was over.
Why doesn't he just sell the house and live somewhere cheaper?
Have a cousin like this. Her dad passed away suddenly, no will and the vultures started circling. She called me for help. I helped her through the probate etc. and made sure she received all her entitlements. It took a lot of my time and sanity. She inherited a house and cash from her dads retirement fund. Thing is, she is disabled and her mother is getting to the stage where she will need some in home care. I saw her start cashing out the retirement investments and spending the money frivolously. Hotels, taxis, travel, ordering in food, hangers on, all of it. Over the period of one year I warned her many many times how to better handle her finances to make it last and gave advice and offered more help. Nah. She politely agreed with my advice each time but kept doing it. Then about the end of that year she must have grown tired of my calls and blocked me on everything. I moved on. About six months ago, and three years later, received a missed call then a text message from her asking for money to to pay for groceries for her and her mother. I blocked her. Not going through that shit again. Found out from other family members that all the money is gone, she has blown through the lot and only has the house left. 🤷♀️
Learn to be more pitiful, say your aunt heard wrong. You actually need money to buy a car cause your old one is broken and then turn the question around to ask them for money.
Sounds like you want a house and the car is a consolation prize. Offer to pay him what he needs and give up the car if one of your older relatives who owns a house gives that to you, in your name only.
no point helping dude. china property market is tanking and even Shanghai property is devaluing. if you help, you will be tossing money into the void. the apartment is nowhere near the value your cousin got the loan for. now the interesting thing is what happens after cousin defaults on the loan. the bank will foreclose, auction it at a pretty terrible % of its org value because nobody is buying now. your cousin will have to make up the difference, ie the bank lawyers will sue him. allegedly based on what i hear from Chinese vloggers, his life will get even worse, e.g. cannot access his online banking (and you know they qr code pay everything nowadays), he cannot buy speed train tickets, his kids may not be able to attend school.
"Oh aunty when you heard me talk about a new car I meant a 1999 Honda civic, not new new, just new to me. I'm down sizing so I can afford petrol prices. But if you're all donating money please feel free to give me some so I can get a toyota aqua, thank you aunty" nta stuff them all. The absolute audacity of him to ask for money when he's screwed others over
NTA. It's your money and they're his problems.
NTA - Actions have consequences.
NTA. Just say you don’t have the money to help and you’re not going to put your future financial stability and retirement at risk by draining your savings for him. The people coming at you about this should be told *they* are welcome to put their *own* financial stability at risk and “lend” to him if it’s so important. (Expect them to come back w “their situation is different”🙄) If they persist tell them you’re not discussing it anymore and walk away. Block them if they come at you on social media.
NTA, someone else’s bad financial investments is not your problem. Even if you had more money than you knew what to do with, you’re not obligated to give it to someone just bc they’re family. Other family can give money if they feel it’s so darned obligatory.
Let your biological family rescue him. You are a teacher and you're supposed to rescue someone that bought a 2.8 million house? In what universe does that make sense? I would just start blocking them and directing them to bankrupt themselves if saving him is such a priority.
Not 2.8 million dollars; it's like 400k USD but still who buys a 400k house in China?
NTA. If he can't afford to keep the house he can sell the house. I can't see any possible reason why this is your responsibility to fix for him, he bought something he knew (or *should've known*) he couldn't afford and this is what not being able to afford something looks like.
It's really inconsequential. The real issue is you CAN'T help him, unless you're sitting on the kind of money where you can pay off his loans in their entirety. And depending on how China works, maybe that wouldn't even be enough to save the house if they have no income of their own. You could just as well set your savings account on fire, it would do just as much good.
NTA. Geez. If you need reassurance, when you tell them you can’t help, that covers that you don’t want to help. Tell them “decent savings” is relative, and they made a bad assumption that it would be an amount you can afford to give away. Tell them to play the lottery.
Sorry, can’t help! You see, I just bought a new car!
Fellow ABC here. Send $100 or so. That way you can say you sent something, and leave it at that. If they keep harassing you, don't send anything to any of them.
Came here to say something similar, but I was gonna say $50 since he is a teacher.
As someone who spent decades teaching, I know how hard you work for your salary. The general public and your family don’t understand how difficult things have been these past four years. You deserve the new car, and I hope you can save for a home or can move to a more affordable location. (I did that and it was one of the best decisions I’ve made.) Don’t let them guilt you into subsidizing someone else’s bad financial decisions. In the future,I wouldn’t bring up anything about your finances at any family gatherings if they start circling you like vultures. NTA!
NTA Casually say you can't believe someone thought you had money when you joked about having enough to get a new car, as it was a toy car you wanted for a collection you have. See what happens then.
I would suggest that with each and every request/demand, you point your nervy relatives to an account were they can donate to enable you to purchase a house. Explain that in the U.S., teachers are not well-paid, so you're sure they'll all want to help you out. Thank them in advance for digging into their life savings and emergency funds so you can become a home-owner. If there's repeat contact on the same topic, send the same canned response. If your cousin with the cement box bothers you again, let him know that you'd like him to split whatever donations he receives with you because, hey, you're family, and you want to buy a house too. NTA
I would go the petty route and say that you are absolutely going to help him, and then send him $4.44, which is your monthly budget for charity. Tell him he can count on the same amount every month for at least the next week.
I do this to my chinese fam when they ask to borrow money, “Oh really? I was just about to ask if you could lend me some money!” Then they shut up
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I [M40] have a blended family and a cousin [M34] on my step-parent's side who used to be close to me. However, due to him moving abroad and conflicts over an inheritance, we no longer talk these days. Recently, I've been receiving calls from various local and overseas relatives asking for financial help for my cousin. He has defaulted on his house payments and is more than six months behind on mortgage and loan repayments because his wife [native Chinese] convinced him to buy a house in Shanghai. He [ABC, by the way] had a good job in what should have been a stable company, but the virus f'ed them hard, and he has never recovered. Apparently, it seems he got laid off eight months ago. When we were still talking, and he told me that he was going to buy this ludicrously expensive 2.8 million RMB house (about 400k USD) that was basically a concrete box. I told him he was insane and would regret it for many reasons, but particularly because he would never actually own the place due to Chinese laws. Now, four years later, he still owes nearly 2 million RMB on his mortgage since his payments have only been covering the interest, and near an additional 1 million RMB in loans for the decorations used to make that naked concrete box a place you can live in. I am a teacher in the US, and I don't earn enough money to own my own damn house, so how am I supposed to give someone else money to pay off theirs when I warned them this would come back to bite them HARD? In the Chinese real estate market, you are always just one bad day or one conman away from losing three generations of savings. This house was so expensive (for him) that it took up 70% of his monthly income just to pay the interest on the mortgage. Now, I am being harassed for his stupidity to help him out of this hole because I let on that I had a decent savings account. It's not house money, but I want to buy a new new car; something nice for once and not just new to me. Even my biological family is giving me grief about this. But I don't want to help. Will I be the asshole if I don't help them? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. This is ridiculous.
NTA. Don’t help them.
NTA. You don’t have enough money to save him. It would just go to waste. (This is the angle I would take since it doesn’t sound like your family cares about your money being your money.)
I'm cold Hands you a tank of kerosene and matches Make me warm
NTA. You cannot be expected to bankrupt yourself to help out someone else. Just say no. That's it. "I don't have $$ to give to you." You don't owe anyone an explanation about why you can't or won't loan them $$.
No reason why you should all go down and helping won’t have any effect because his debt is so deep. Might as well burn cash in your backyard.
NTA for refusing to fund a sinking ship.
Don't set yourself on fire to keep another person warm.
NTA. He made a mistake and you helping will only destroy both of you financially
NTA you are asked for donations not loan... Also you cannot afford it. If there is no really hidden information here (like he lent you before a lot of money) Also tell all people harassing you you can give money this cousin!
NTA. Your family should all start pitching in. a few bucks here a few bucks there. for sure that would help your cousin. Or they could just harass you about it.
Block them and ignore them. Live your life. They made their choices, why are you responsible for it? NTA
Sending what you have would only serve to help him keep a standard of living, it won’t get him squared up. Essentially you’d be subsidizing his family while forgoing your own. I can’t see how anyone is better by this decision.
NTA. Just tell them you don't have the money. They wouldn't know if it is true or not if you don't divulge anything. A decent income in the US does not mean you are rolling in a bed of money. Also it is kind of expected that your cousin will be in a hole. He married a mainlander! I may get downvoted for this comment but it is the truth. They have a very toxic culture on marriage. If you're a guy, no woman would want you if you don't have your own house, own car, and a good degree and stable job.
Absolutely NTA. you could put yourself in financial jeopardy And he might ask for more! Please don't feel guilty about not bailing him out of his mess
Make your money inaccessible. Spend it or lock it away in a long term investment.
NTA - you did help. You gave repeated advice to try and prevent this consequence that you saw coming, and he ignored you, now he can reap what he has sown. I'd stop talking to the family demanding you help because they obviously don't actually care about anyone's feelings but your cousin.
NTA, there’s no way he’d have given you a dime under the same circumstances
NTA You know he wouldn't have helped you. Anyone who is after you to help tell them that you're adding their name to a list that you'll be sending cousin so he knows who is willing to help. If they all get together they should have enough to pay it off. That is the only help he'll be receiving from you.
NTA. You said it yourself, you don't have the money. Block and move on.
NTA - You don't have the money to help him.
NTA NOT your responsibility to help him out
NTA Just curious here - if you bought your newish car and had a crisis that put you behind on your payments - would these relatives be working as hard on your behalf to find financial assistance as they are for him?
NTA! Why on earth is YOUR savings account up for grabs to bail out a financially irresponsible relative? IT'S NOT. Ignore everyone's financial demands. "My budget and financial planning for my teacher's salary does not include handouts for financially irresponsible relatives."
I have no idea how international bankruptcy works but I expect a crash course for him is unavoidable, even if you have them your whole income.
NTA Your family is enabling your cousin like crazy, don’t feel bad for holding your boundaries
“Good to talk, good to talk. And you’re right, maybe I should help. Just read this to me, would you?” “This just says ‘You and your cousin no longer speak. He is financially incontinent. You should give up your own financial security because I think you’re an idiot’.” “Does it say that? Oh. Well, now that I’ve heard you say it out loud it DOES sound like a dreadful plan.” NTA
NTA. You would be flushing your money down the toilet. Whatever savings you have is a drop in the bucket of what he owes and if he doesn't work, how's going to come up with next months interest payment? Tell your family to stop spending YOUR money on a lost cause.
I've a family member who could do with financial help, but she always earned more than me, & always spent it, eventually went to live with Dad for 30 years, still earning better than me, but without saving the money she didn't spend on bills (including food!). Dad died and she needs to live somewhere. I'm not offering a room in my fully owned house - wouldn't enjoy living with her but more importantly I know I'd end up paying for her part of the bills so I'm not having her live with me, nor will I stump up a wadge of savings which were hard earned by me to help her find somewhere (poor health & less earned than her, so didn't do things like holidays etc so I'd be secure). Any other family member I'd seriously consider helping - her, no. Luckily, none of the family has stuck their nose in and told me to offer my spare room. We're talking making your own bed & having to lie in it.
First, thank you for being a teacher. We have such a shortage of teachers in my area, and I know that profession doesn't pay well at all. So, don't even feel bad about not helping your cousin out financially. Maybe if the person needing help was your parent, that might be different. A cousin you don't even talk to or like, no way. If you're feeling petty, setup a GoFundMe that puts your cousin's business out there and send the links to your family giving you grief. See if they donate anything.
NTA but if you're a teacher in the USA I would recommend not getting a new car. It must have been difficult to scrimp and save that kind of money on a teacher's salary. Get it invested and ready for retirement friend. It was the saddest thing seeing my teacher's work two jobs in the summer and still struggling.
INFO: just out of curiosity, do you know how much a normal house costs in his area? You make it sound like buying that house was a huge mistake but, since Im used to american house prices, while 400k USD is more than I could afford on a single income, I know that amount is a common price for many decent homes here. Of course, Im sure the CoL there is much different too. NTA in any case. Sounds like he tried to live beyond his means and there’s no point in multiple generations having to pause their lives to give this cousin money when he really should just move.