This kid graduated from Alabama and went to Columbia Med.
Kid who got in to every Ivy League school is going to the University of Alabama — and it's a brilliant decision
https://www.businessinsider.com/ronald-nelson-turned-down-every-ivy-league-school-for-university-of-alabama-2015-5?amp
I have a kid with a chronic condition who has a medical team of specialists at what is inarguably one of the top hospitals in the country. Two attended Alabama at no or little cost before heading to medical school. (And recommended that my kid, who is looking to work in the medical field, skip the costly OOS T50s for a much less costly in-state university. And thus far, with a 3.9 GPA, research, and many logged clinical and observation hours, their advice seems well-taken.)
I know Alabama grads who are doing residencies at Harvard.
You don’t need to go to a name brand school to be successful in your profession.
The go to orthopedic surgeon for elite athletes was Dr. James Andrews. He went to Louisiana State University for undergrad and med school.
James Andrews, doctor to the superstars, calls it a career
https://www.mlb.com/news/dr-james-andrews-world-renowned-orthopaedic-surgeon-retires
He made the clearly correct decision due to costs, but there is still truth that on average, the top premed schools like OP mentioned give a greater volume of opportunity for their students than a larger state school like Alabama. It’s absolutely possible to get into a terrific med school from any given college/university, but it does become a more uphill battle.
Hey I may be wrong! I welcome disagreement. My understanding is Michigan indeed does have many IB hires but it's also a huge school so the percentage of IB hires they take is much lower than say Princeton and it's also limited primarily to their business school (as opposed to Princeton where you could be a philosophy major and you're still a viable candidate). But if you disagree I'm all ears!
I mean by that logic why do you consider NYU or UT as targets? Take a look at this article and you will see that Michigan does very well. [https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools](https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools)
So for folks who actually want DATA on this. Chetty et al did the data for their publication (2023) when they did show the big reason to go to Ivy Plus vs. Selective public school is to get hired by "Prestigious Employers".
That advantage is by 23% or so vs. Selective State It is the one metric that is the big reason to go to Ivy Plus. Interestingly, even with that huge advantage not much overall adv. lies with Ivy Plus group in having more folks making in the top 1% income (just 8% more).
The sub stratified data of the "prestigious employer" group was really interesting though if you delve into it more. They looked at WHO got hired in that cohort. They divided it by quartiles by SAT scores. It was linear by scores. The folks who were >1550 (think 3rd and 4th quartiles) were really the group getting hired. Interestingly, being legacy, athlete recruit, and proxies for private school/ wealth (higher extraacademic scores) were SLIGHT NEGATIVE correlation of getting hired.
Conclusion: So the folks who weaseled into Ivy plus were NOT the same folks who got hired by big time employers. It was the amazing super brilliant kids who likely killed it at the college level.
I’ll only note that my physician friends, and those I know professionally due to a kid’s chronic illness, nearly all sent their pre-med kids to in-state universities or OOS publics that offered merit scholarships that took their total cost of attendance below their in-state rates. In their view, medical school admission is largely a factor of earning excellent grades, scoring high on the MCAT, and demonstrating an interest in and understanding of medical care by working as an EMT, assisting university sports trainers, logging observation and clinical hours in a medical facility, participating in medical science-related research, volunteering in an ER or hospital department, or working in a free clinic. Since all of these factors can be met by a bright, hardworking, and conscientious student at many universities, they chose to prioritize keeping costs low to save their loans, or a chunk of the college fund, for medical school.
I'm a physician. They are correct. I went to a no name college and med school. Trained at Harvard for residency and fellowship. The OP doesn't know what they are talking about (no offense).
Now if you want to get into a top 10 med school? Sure a top 10 undergrad will surely help if you kill it there.
Nope. Not one bit. Unless you are looking to be chairman of an academic department. Maybe might help if you are looking at the very high end specialties (derm/ neurosx). But for the latter comment even if you do get in you better house it up and be at the top end of that graduating class to matter. Being from a top med school and being mediocre in performance won't matter when it comes to applying (at least it didn't when I applied back in early 2000's).
Trust me me training at Harvard didn't even make a difference in my career. Was cool and all, but made no difference in my career trajectory. Would have if I stayed academic, but in the private world NO ONE cares about stupid things like that.
You are absolutely right! It definitely can be done at the state school level (and not just powerhouses like Berkeley or UCLA). Just the path is a bit easier and more streamlined at elite premed schools like JHU and Penn
Yes, but do you believe that the “bit easier” path would be worth an extra $20,000 or $40,000 a year if that payment would require loans or deplete the college fund of money that could be used towards medical school? Or a downpayment on a home, a wedding, a contribution towards an investment fund, or travel? These are the kinds of questions with which many A2C students struggle. My spouse and I are both attorneys with two Ivies and two T10 law schools between us. Yet, being full pay, we urged our kids to attend one of our solid in-state universities or an OOS public that offered them a significant merit scholarship. That allowed us to also pay for grad school and otherwise assist them in the future. In our view, a “bit easier” path wasn’t worth the buck when our high-achieving kids were very likely to excel anywhere. One content consultant and a first-choice grad school later, our decision seems to have panned out.
Yep. Hence why I stated in my post that for 99% of people going to an elite school is not worth it. It's diminishing returns. Med school is even less strong of a field where it's "worth it" compared to IB
You’re correct, but a lot of people will take what you say and go onto think that where you go premed doesn’t matter - it does matter, just not nearly as much as minimizing undergrad costs.
If Harvard, JHU, or Duke worked out to be 10k/year more than your state flagship, that might be worth it. 50k/year more? Absolutely not.
Medicine is getting increasingly competitive and having the necessary boxes checked isn’t usually enough for T30 MD schools. You have to be able to find a story within medicine - show a specific interest within the field that sets you apart. And that’s just worlds easier when your opportunities are maximized to make it feel like . Hopkins Penn and Harvard have larger budgets for medical research than most nations have in terms of GDP and easy access the best medical facilities and doctors in the world. Hell, Hopkins has over 700 clubs alone dedicated to medicine.
One of the HYS gave me a full ride scholarship (which means it’s cheaper than my state school) and I am going there as a intended “pre-law”. Would I have any advantage applying to that law school? Could that compensate for a lower GPA or LSAT?
Not typically. You’ll still need to fare well amongst your college classmates. GPA, LSAT score, and course rigor with a mix of writing-intensive and quantitative coursework are the key factors for law school admissions. If you’d like to see the average GPA and LSAT for a particular law school, as well as other factors such as age, educational background, and work experience, just Google its law school class profile. Good luck!
The greatest thing you miss is entrepreneurship (startups, founding a hedge fund, etc), which has unlimited upside and dominates the +EV from top universities. For example, if going to Harvard makes you 0.1% more likely to reach a net worth of $10B+, then that's a +$1M EV from this outcome alone.
In entrepreneurship, signaling is extremely important, and going to a top school is not only an excellent signal itself but gives you the opportunity to accumulate other signals (e.g. prestigious internships, top publications). Going to a top school becomes even more important if you're naturally bad at socializing/forming connections, since without a strong network you need pedigree to compensate.
If your goal is to have a solid upper-middle class career, then sure don't stress over a which college you go to. If your life's mission is to become a multibillionaire, by all means do.
Most people have no interest in that kind of life and just about all who make it “big” have skeletons in the closet. Not to mention that even with the big name on your resume, most do fail - it’s an uphill battle that is long, uncomfortable, and usually requiring a lose moral compass in order to sell yourself to the interests of investors.
This might be true but I think this can be bucketed alongside my IB and med school examples. Most people are not cut out to be entrepreneurs. Most people are totally fine just working, making a good salary, and enjoying time with their families. Also getting those connections for entrepreneurship can be done at a great MBA program and you don't need to go to a top undergrad to be admitted to those.
Once you’re in the real world, you’re going to notice the people who’ve done military service are the top.
Did you go to Harvard? Meh.
Did you lead a tank battalion in Iraq? 👍
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There is a post about this topic every week lol
This kid graduated from Alabama and went to Columbia Med. Kid who got in to every Ivy League school is going to the University of Alabama — and it's a brilliant decision https://www.businessinsider.com/ronald-nelson-turned-down-every-ivy-league-school-for-university-of-alabama-2015-5?amp
I have a kid with a chronic condition who has a medical team of specialists at what is inarguably one of the top hospitals in the country. Two attended Alabama at no or little cost before heading to medical school. (And recommended that my kid, who is looking to work in the medical field, skip the costly OOS T50s for a much less costly in-state university. And thus far, with a 3.9 GPA, research, and many logged clinical and observation hours, their advice seems well-taken.)
I know Alabama grads who are doing residencies at Harvard. You don’t need to go to a name brand school to be successful in your profession. The go to orthopedic surgeon for elite athletes was Dr. James Andrews. He went to Louisiana State University for undergrad and med school. James Andrews, doctor to the superstars, calls it a career https://www.mlb.com/news/dr-james-andrews-world-renowned-orthopaedic-surgeon-retires
He made the clearly correct decision due to costs, but there is still truth that on average, the top premed schools like OP mentioned give a greater volume of opportunity for their students than a larger state school like Alabama. It’s absolutely possible to get into a terrific med school from any given college/university, but it does become a more uphill battle.
Yeah the op commenter constantly glazes bama in this sub it's so funny
emory and rice are definitely included in the “high pre-med resource” category along with the schools you listed, otherwise this is def accurate
also emory (at least for ib/consulting) should be in top 15 as well as NU
and whoever downvoted my comment is just ignoring the facts 🤷♂️
Thanks for the info!
Some of ur assessment feels on point, but Northwestern definitely belongs in the top-15 targets cohort, especially if we’re talking about consulting.
You're right. Less IB (though still good) but for sure for consulting
IB placements from NU in the last ~5 years count Northwestern solidly as a target. https://www.northwesternibc.com/placement.html
how is umich ross not a solid target 🤣
real cuz i was wondering the same
Hey I may be wrong! I welcome disagreement. My understanding is Michigan indeed does have many IB hires but it's also a huge school so the percentage of IB hires they take is much lower than say Princeton and it's also limited primarily to their business school (as opposed to Princeton where you could be a philosophy major and you're still a viable candidate). But if you disagree I'm all ears!
I mean by that logic why do you consider NYU or UT as targets? Take a look at this article and you will see that Michigan does very well. [https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools](https://www.peakframeworks.com/post/ib-target-schools)
i really like this post, great breakdown of such a big question in the college universe (for us on A2C)
So for folks who actually want DATA on this. Chetty et al did the data for their publication (2023) when they did show the big reason to go to Ivy Plus vs. Selective public school is to get hired by "Prestigious Employers". That advantage is by 23% or so vs. Selective State It is the one metric that is the big reason to go to Ivy Plus. Interestingly, even with that huge advantage not much overall adv. lies with Ivy Plus group in having more folks making in the top 1% income (just 8% more). The sub stratified data of the "prestigious employer" group was really interesting though if you delve into it more. They looked at WHO got hired in that cohort. They divided it by quartiles by SAT scores. It was linear by scores. The folks who were >1550 (think 3rd and 4th quartiles) were really the group getting hired. Interestingly, being legacy, athlete recruit, and proxies for private school/ wealth (higher extraacademic scores) were SLIGHT NEGATIVE correlation of getting hired. Conclusion: So the folks who weaseled into Ivy plus were NOT the same folks who got hired by big time employers. It was the amazing super brilliant kids who likely killed it at the college level.
UT Austin is not a target school for banking.
I’ll only note that my physician friends, and those I know professionally due to a kid’s chronic illness, nearly all sent their pre-med kids to in-state universities or OOS publics that offered merit scholarships that took their total cost of attendance below their in-state rates. In their view, medical school admission is largely a factor of earning excellent grades, scoring high on the MCAT, and demonstrating an interest in and understanding of medical care by working as an EMT, assisting university sports trainers, logging observation and clinical hours in a medical facility, participating in medical science-related research, volunteering in an ER or hospital department, or working in a free clinic. Since all of these factors can be met by a bright, hardworking, and conscientious student at many universities, they chose to prioritize keeping costs low to save their loans, or a chunk of the college fund, for medical school.
I'm a physician. They are correct. I went to a no name college and med school. Trained at Harvard for residency and fellowship. The OP doesn't know what they are talking about (no offense). Now if you want to get into a top 10 med school? Sure a top 10 undergrad will surely help if you kill it there.
Does a top 10 med school matter?
Nope. Not one bit. Unless you are looking to be chairman of an academic department. Maybe might help if you are looking at the very high end specialties (derm/ neurosx). But for the latter comment even if you do get in you better house it up and be at the top end of that graduating class to matter. Being from a top med school and being mediocre in performance won't matter when it comes to applying (at least it didn't when I applied back in early 2000's). Trust me me training at Harvard didn't even make a difference in my career. Was cool and all, but made no difference in my career trajectory. Would have if I stayed academic, but in the private world NO ONE cares about stupid things like that.
You are absolutely right! It definitely can be done at the state school level (and not just powerhouses like Berkeley or UCLA). Just the path is a bit easier and more streamlined at elite premed schools like JHU and Penn
Yes, but do you believe that the “bit easier” path would be worth an extra $20,000 or $40,000 a year if that payment would require loans or deplete the college fund of money that could be used towards medical school? Or a downpayment on a home, a wedding, a contribution towards an investment fund, or travel? These are the kinds of questions with which many A2C students struggle. My spouse and I are both attorneys with two Ivies and two T10 law schools between us. Yet, being full pay, we urged our kids to attend one of our solid in-state universities or an OOS public that offered them a significant merit scholarship. That allowed us to also pay for grad school and otherwise assist them in the future. In our view, a “bit easier” path wasn’t worth the buck when our high-achieving kids were very likely to excel anywhere. One content consultant and a first-choice grad school later, our decision seems to have panned out.
Yep. Hence why I stated in my post that for 99% of people going to an elite school is not worth it. It's diminishing returns. Med school is even less strong of a field where it's "worth it" compared to IB
You’re correct, but a lot of people will take what you say and go onto think that where you go premed doesn’t matter - it does matter, just not nearly as much as minimizing undergrad costs. If Harvard, JHU, or Duke worked out to be 10k/year more than your state flagship, that might be worth it. 50k/year more? Absolutely not. Medicine is getting increasingly competitive and having the necessary boxes checked isn’t usually enough for T30 MD schools. You have to be able to find a story within medicine - show a specific interest within the field that sets you apart. And that’s just worlds easier when your opportunities are maximized to make it feel like . Hopkins Penn and Harvard have larger budgets for medical research than most nations have in terms of GDP and easy access the best medical facilities and doctors in the world. Hell, Hopkins has over 700 clubs alone dedicated to medicine.
One of the HYS gave me a full ride scholarship (which means it’s cheaper than my state school) and I am going there as a intended “pre-law”. Would I have any advantage applying to that law school? Could that compensate for a lower GPA or LSAT?
Not typically. You’ll still need to fare well amongst your college classmates. GPA, LSAT score, and course rigor with a mix of writing-intensive and quantitative coursework are the key factors for law school admissions. If you’d like to see the average GPA and LSAT for a particular law school, as well as other factors such as age, educational background, and work experience, just Google its law school class profile. Good luck!
The greatest thing you miss is entrepreneurship (startups, founding a hedge fund, etc), which has unlimited upside and dominates the +EV from top universities. For example, if going to Harvard makes you 0.1% more likely to reach a net worth of $10B+, then that's a +$1M EV from this outcome alone. In entrepreneurship, signaling is extremely important, and going to a top school is not only an excellent signal itself but gives you the opportunity to accumulate other signals (e.g. prestigious internships, top publications). Going to a top school becomes even more important if you're naturally bad at socializing/forming connections, since without a strong network you need pedigree to compensate. If your goal is to have a solid upper-middle class career, then sure don't stress over a which college you go to. If your life's mission is to become a multibillionaire, by all means do.
Genuine question, what’s stopping every entrepreneur in top schools from becoming millionaires/billionaires/etc?
Most people have no interest in that kind of life and just about all who make it “big” have skeletons in the closet. Not to mention that even with the big name on your resume, most do fail - it’s an uphill battle that is long, uncomfortable, and usually requiring a lose moral compass in order to sell yourself to the interests of investors.
This might be true but I think this can be bucketed alongside my IB and med school examples. Most people are not cut out to be entrepreneurs. Most people are totally fine just working, making a good salary, and enjoying time with their families. Also getting those connections for entrepreneurship can be done at a great MBA program and you don't need to go to a top undergrad to be admitted to those.
REAL, there is a inherent bias for stanford grads in the VC world
Once you’re in the real world, you’re going to notice the people who’ve done military service are the top. Did you go to Harvard? Meh. Did you lead a tank battalion in Iraq? 👍
Top of the world in PTSD 💯🔝🥇
Not everyone gets PTSD, especially not the officers
Hey there, Do you have a question about admissions to master's or PhD programs? r/ApplyingToCollege is an undergraduate admissions sub, and posts must be related to undergraduate admissions. If your question is about graduate admissions, try asking r/gradadmissions. If your post is not about graduate or PhD admissions, feel free to ignore this message. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ApplyingToCollege) if you have any questions or concerns.*