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I can't help but notice that the writer is happy to drop the real name of a high school kid who's done nothing wrong, but let's the grown adult trying to kick up a fuss over a teen sporting competition hide behind a pseudonym.
Because a deadname is really a "dead"name, in that, the kid would not prefer to be associated with that name at all and would fully want to be known by her chosen name, and hence it would be easy to find her on the internet to send death threats.
Whenever I read stories like this and the child never even comments themselves I always wonder if the child was even as upset as the parent actually makes it out to be (by losing possibly but I mean by the winner being trans).
Imagine being supportive of your fellow athlete who happens to be transgender and then your mother has an article published about how angry you are.
This is what I was wondering. Even if the daughter is sad/angry she lost there's a massive difference between "I'm sad/angry I lost" and "I'm sad/angry I lost because my opponent was trans."
Finally, poor losers are a thing, it shouldn't be news.
??? The girl placed third she lost to another cis girl as well ?????
And did this girl who won also win the championship or whatever?
If she doesn't win the next round they'll conveniently be silent about it but if she does win they'll use it to be even more transphobic.
These creeps just want to be hateful.
>Garcia easily outpaced the female runners
Except the girl who won. They're really trying to pretend the second place runner was blowing away the competition.
Wait so this poor girl didn't even win? She just beat third place??? And they're still pulling all this crap acting like "trans bad and unfair to girls bc men are better than girls at everything always and forever and trans girls have male body so automatically better than any woman will ever be in her life" logic????
At least let her come first place before parading your child's skill issue around like that lol!
We will have to go through this every time a trans woman wins any sporting event. If they win, it is because they are trans and no other reason. Ignore all the times trans women participated and did not win.
You could play for the Connecticut Sun and have been on HRT for like two years win the championship, but have the least amount of points during the playoffs regular season and finals and you would still get shit because you’re trans
This only encourage bigots to be even more upset.
At this point, the clever thing to do is to create categories according to height, weight or any other relevant info.
Elite athletes are elite despite their genitalia or gender.
I don't see any point in compromising with bigots because they'll be upset no matter what. Even if we banned trans people from competition they would complain that some cis girl is secretly trans.
Some cis women have innate biological advantages over other cis women. Same with cis men. Having weight or height classes makes way more sense than splitting things by gender.
I know of at least one male tennis champ who stood up for his female counterpart saying "why are you interviewing me, she's right there and she could kick my ass blindfolded". So yeah, straight guys can be sporting about this sort of thing... It depends on personality, not gender.
I disagree we should just give everyone their own event class and then they're all winners and nobody will ever be upset again. This will definitely not just cause more delusional ranting about kids these days
Some people are just better at shit than others including sports, I’m way better at fighting games than my female cousin is is it because I was born may I want to have a biological advantage? No, I’m just better because I play more.
Vivziepop is better at art than I am. It’s because she’s a woman no
YES oh my gosh i’m tired of sports being split by sex or gender!
It makes no sense!!!! And I don’t even like sports!
You’re absolutely right that, like many martial arts and some forms of wrestling, sport competitions and such should be divided up by weight, height, skill level, again like many martial arts and wrestling do.
i did karate for 12 years when i still identified with my agab and had a good amount of cis girls who beat the shit out of me in our full-contact sparring matches. sports are definitely not as uneven between genders as people like to believe, it’s absolutely a self-fulfilling prophecy on some level
I just think people find it hard to admit they fucking suck at something. I'm dogshit at sports and am only really physically fit in the sense that I'm not morbidly obese.
Does this make me a fundamentally worse human being who is less valuable, lovable, and what have you? No. Many people, however, seem to think these things do make them less worthy of life or attention, so they do whatever they can to convince themselves they're better than others at a thing. If the means through which they achieve this line up with their bigoted politics, all the better for them.
Of course, there's the conversation to be had about the, problematic, notion that people have to pay attention to you and care about you for your presence to be "deserved," but that's a whole other conversation.
I also feel like this mother doesn’t see her daughter as a daughter. She sees her as an achievement because she failed at her dreams and now she’s projecting her dreams and stuff like that on her daughter.
And if she fails, she has no worth to her because she’s her daughter and she wants her to be exactly like her. It’s thing parent thing a lot of parents do push their dreams onto their children, even though they’re completely different people with different hopes and dreams and desires
This person didnt *even* fucking win! And they're still harping on about it. Christ. At this point, any time anybody talks about sports I instantly tune it out.
First all, the trans athlete didn't win by any significant margin. The final result was well within the average of the other top cisgender athletes within the competition. There is no "unfair advantage" here, she was simply the better athlete in this race.
Second of all, it's a competition and yes, silver medal syndrome is a thing and it sucks, but any real athlete knows you gotta learn to deal with it and move on. There will always be other races.
Every real athlete knows, you figure out where you fell short in your own performance, learn from it, and use it as motivation to get better. If you get bested by another athlete, you learn how to strategize your own performance so that you can be better.
Third of all, to quote Picard: 'It is *possible to make no mistakes*, and still lose. that is not a weakness; that is life.'
Edit: Here are the results from the race itself in Womens 400m 2A. [https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/meet/520876/results/f/4/400m](https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/meet/520876/results/f/4/400m)
* Garcia posted a time one second faster than second place. This is a comparable range given that other competitors in the final heat easily posted times 1 second or more ahead of the athlete behind them.
* The range between first and eighth place in the final is under 4 seconds which is within the same range of just under 4 seconds as the finals in the 3a and 4a competitions.
Also note Garcia's times throughout the season which are, again, comparable to her competitors in every event. [https://www.athletic.net/athlete/21283549/track-and-field/high-school](https://www.athletic.net/athlete/21283549/track-and-field/high-school)
* Garcia's main race is the 400m for which she excels at and is very competitive. But she also raced in the 1600m, 3200m, 300m hurdles and relays, for which her results are all over the board. Including many 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th place finishes.
If she’s not taking anything, even playing the “trans girls have a biological advantage” devils advocate your question would be more appropriately phrased as “if I’m naturally taller than average and barely win a slam
dunk contest, it’s not cheating?”
To which I would reply, “nah, that’s stupid.”
Taking steroids and going on HRT or two different things one is a drug meant to BOOST muscle mass and the other one depending on if you take estrogen, literally decreases muscle mass there’s no advantage you would get by going on HRT you would be at a disadvantage
There were no steroids taken nor was there any cheating. If you knew anything about (1) transition and (2) sport science, you would understand that
* Trans women will actively suppress testosterone production in their body to minimize masculine development.
* There is a positive correlation between anaerobic performance and amount of testosterone within the body. Meaning that less tesosterone in the body negatively effects on performance. Trans women reduce active serum tesosterone to that compared to cis women.
* What is the point of cheating in a high school track meet? With all the criticism trans athletes face, what external gains would they get from winning a high school race? There's no money, no medals, no sponsorships. There is nothing of extrinisic value to gain.
What would anybody gain by cheating in a high school track meet?
Do yourself a favor, educate yourself on the basic science and facts before you ask stupid questions.
I do have a genuine question I'll admit I am not as educated on strugles related to FtM as I am the ones MtF go though I am embarrassed to say
But since FtM take steroids (least i think they do) what would be the ruling their would that not give them a advantage over other the guys or if not why
Typically, trans men on HRT are getting a bio-identical testosterone. They aim for testosterone levels within the typical range of cis men. Having around the same amount of testosterone in their body as a cis man does won't shouldn't give them an advantage over cis men.
I understand sport science. I have a decent understanding of transitioning. To address those points.
1- absolutely, they do. Undeniably true. The real question is did puberty begin before or after the start of transition because that's when the biggest physiological changes start to happen. Males have bigger frames and denser bones on average.
2- yes, less testosterone generally equates to worse performance. Again, undeniably true. On the flip side, what if you were able to put on muscle mass before transition? It's not like it will all be lost the second you start throwing estrogen into the mix. It's a two fold argument. How much of the gains were made pre transition and how much did the brain develop pre transition. There's a lot of studies pointing to higher levels of testosterone affecting the direction in which your brain develops, meaning you can create better muscle memory. You can learn patterns better. You have better spatial awareness and distancing. These can be clear cut advantages that don't necessarily disappear once you lower your testosterone.
3- there is no point, but I also don't think that the intention was to go cheat and be the best. The trans kid just wanted to compete where they feel comfortable. No problem. They didn't come in with bad intentions I'm sure but it's obviously going to make people think they did when they start winning. Basic human bias.
In my opinion, (and I'm controversial or a trans phobe for this one according to some people), if women have women's sports and men have men's sports, why not have trans sports? This way nobody can complain about the fairness or unfairness. This way it isn't exclusively women's sports that get invaded by another gender (because it almost never happens that a women transitions to man and has any success competing against men, which should already highlight that your argument is kind of moot and based off inclusivity and not facts). I think trans leagues would be great to watch, obviously on the condition that we can find enough to fill a league.
In the end, there can be advantages. It can also be pretty fair at lower levels where nobody has perfected their craft. At the elite levels where the smallest thing can change the outcome of a fight because they're otherwise extremely well matched up, being trans can be a huge advantage or disadvantage based on which way you're transitioning and the age you transitioned at in a competition.
If we were to split sports that way, we would end up with at least 5 categories; men, women, trans men, trans women, non-binary.
Given that around 97%+ people identify as cis, there just wouldn't be enough to populate these sports, as such there would be little to no funding, access to facilities etc. What would actually happen is non-cis people would no longer be able to play sport.
At the elite level, most athletes already have inate biological advantages, thatspart of how they got to that level. Michael Phelps produces less lactic acid than other elite swimmers, giving him a huge advantage.
One of the biggest factors in elite performance is wealth, both individually and nationally. Countries that can pump money into sports tend to produce better athletes. People who can afford coaching, decent food, and spend more time training are more likely to get to the top level.
Sport, especially at the elite level, isn't fair and never will be.
>Given that around 97%+ people identify as cis, there just wouldn't be enough to populate these sports, as such there would be little to no funding, access to facilities etc. What would actually happen is non-cis people would no longer be able to play sport.
That's the point. Whenever one of these asshole bring up different catagorise that's what they want. No trans/nb folk doing any sports.
It's quite blatant
Yep! Whenever you press them on the fact that there wouldn't be enough people for a "trans women" division, if they *do* respond to it it's always a "I don't care, too bad for them."
For your #1 & #2, it doesn't matter, after 1-2 years on estrogen and reduced (cis women's levels) testosterone all the muscle is gone, and to gain it again it would take a really long time taking testosterone, and for the bigger frames, trans women are at a disadvantage as there is less muscle to support the bigger frame.
Now for your controversial opinion, why stop there? Why not not whites only sports?
"Though it wasn't apparent Garcia was a biological male...", meaning she passed physically and was at no advantage whatsoever.
This is quite literally just a skill issue.
If this was a problem it'd be so common to hear this it wouldn't be news anymore. Somehow it isn't but it's them trans kids being cheaters not that she lost to a second person and could easily have lost to a third random person if you replaced the trans girl.
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gotta love how the reporter just name drops a literal teenager, but let the grown ass woman throwing a temper tantrum hide behind a pseudonym 🤦🏽smh.
also, how much of a snowflake do you have to be to get that mad because your kid doesn’t win? since the article said that it wasn’t apparent that the other runner is trans, it’s making me think that they have no idea what hrt does to your body, because if they did, they’d know that she has very minimal, if any physical advantage due to the fact that it would lower her testosterone levels and increase her progesterone and estrogen levels, putting her in the same physical advantage of the rest of the contestants, the fact that she beat the lady’s kid means that she likely trained more.
I’m sorry but you guys cannot be serious? If you genuinely believe this is okay then you’re happy with completely abolishing women’s sport and having everyone compete together.
Wow, really? You'd think, in that case, that trans athletes would be *consistently* winning athletic events. Instead of just, you know, occasionally winning.
Even if she lost to a cis girl, I still think it's not a fair competition. We can all agree that culturally and socially a trans woman is a woman, but we cannot pretend in biology they are the same thing.
Crazy. Didn’t know you have a science degree. I do. and reading these stupid ass comments from people who learn about scientific concepts from YouTube and Fox News is really wild.
Coming from a scientist, a lot of people on this thread have no fucking idea about biology.
So you are telling me that there is no biological difference between XY and XX chromosome people? In physical attributes and characteristics?
I think you need to go back to college. You are a scientist, science is factual, inclusion is not pretending facts don't exist anymore.
I wonder what would determine the type of hormones our body will produce?
It's one thing to acknowledge trans women as women, because they are, but a very different thing is to pretend they weren't born male, because that is madness, we can't change biology, we can't pretend it's not a fact.
The way his body is built. Like, if he confessed he was actually a merman given human form, I'd see it. He is not built like normal people irrc even his shoulder muscles and stuff are shaped different (wider or something???). It's like he was built to swim instead of walk or run. Literally a biological advantage.
He has longer arms than average, big feet and hands, a wide chest, and a longer torso compared to legs than average, which is advantageous in swimming. He also produces less lactic acid, even compared to other elite swimmers.
If you were to engineer a human to be good at swimming, you'd basically build Phelps.
He has a longer torso with shorter legs while maintaining a wider wingspan. Not exactly a "merman given human form". This is like arguing that we should set a height limit on basketball or volleyball players which we obviously don't. Basically every sport has a body size/ratio that is suited to it, that doesn't mean its "unfair". Except combat sports that is, which we do set different leagues for different body types due to the massive advantage of size. And also except for the differences between the sexes where going through male puberty is massive advantage in every sport.
Some biological advantage we allow, some we don't.
No. We acknowledge a fairness gap between the sexes and therefore categorized them into different leagues. Some sports do acknowledge fairness gaps in body shape/size (such as weight categories in combat sports) and so do have different leagues for them. Swimming is not such a sport.
Actually once you start on estrogen, the body loses a lot of muscle mass, shifting it to a more feminine build and distributing and once someone has been taking it consistently for a few years, there is no difference between their body and that of a cis woman.
Also, she doesn’t even hold the state record, she’s fast yes but that’s not the state record. That belongs to a cis woman.
This comparison needs to be said more.
Michael Phelps has distinct biological advantages that most other swimmers do not have. Those are celebrated, and as long as he has a dick and identifies as male, he gets to compete against other men who don’t have the same biological advantages no questions asked.
When I was in Jr High football we were all scrawny little 12 year olds, but one kid physically developed a lot earlier than us. He was the same age, but looked like a 17-18 year old. He alone carried our team to win after win because he was so much bigger and stronger, no other kids could stop him. Was there a national outcry about it? No, because he was a biological male competing against boys, so no one gave a damn.
"I did some research" aka I found some right winged propaganda nonsense and believe every word they say. I also refuse to look for actual scientific sources and tell everyone they're incorrect.
So, which part of being a man gives someone advantages in athletics? Is it the testosterone, that trans women suppress to levels lower then that of cis women? The fat distribution that is affected by the hormones we take? The genitals?
testosterone/puberty affect more than just muscle mass, its muscle efficiency as well, the red blood cell count, bone density and geometry, lung capacity, the list goes on. That doesn't just magically go away the moment you start HRT, nor does it go away after years. For example maintaining muscle is far easier than building it.
A trans woman IS a woman, without any doubt at all. But to deny that male puberty has a biological effect is just plain wrong.
I honestly think the answer is to let trans people go through the puberty of their choice by making puberty blockers for accessible.
They’ve actually done a fair amount of studies on that so far. Turns out no, there is no biological advantage and trans women do not disproportionately overtake in women’s sports. Look up Jessie Gender on YouTube and watch her video essay about trans athletes, covers everything you said and disproves it all with science and statistics.
Well that's just not true, particularly when it comes to running. Several trans marathon runners found their speed dropped them back quite a bit, but averaging among the women where they had with the men, so they lost strength and speed, but not skill.
But ya, fyi, HRT alters muscle mass, bone density, even lung capacity. An average Joe...or...Jean might not notice some of it, like the lung capacity, but an athlete would notice the changes quite a bit.
You are being purposefully thick it seems. If I were to assume you are actually arguing in good faith then I would have to explain how training for a sport also gives you an advantage in said sport...
If I truly believed I could beat a professional female lesson in a wrestling match solely because I am biologically male, they are biologically female I would not have made this post
I really don’t understand why this is such a downvoted opinion… yes HRT can somewhat level the playing field but it doesn’t just erase years of developmental differences. I understand the trans athlete didn’t win in this particular case but that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have a biological advantage. I really don’t think it’s transphobic to point this out.
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I can't help but notice that the writer is happy to drop the real name of a high school kid who's done nothing wrong, but let's the grown adult trying to kick up a fuss over a teen sporting competition hide behind a pseudonym.
yeah, that's so fucked up. I'm honestly surprised they didn't just dig up the trans girl's deadname and drop that, too.
Because a deadname is really a "dead"name, in that, the kid would not prefer to be associated with that name at all and would fully want to be known by her chosen name, and hence it would be easy to find her on the internet to send death threats.
They would write something like "John Smith, who uses the female name Janice"
That’s what instantly stuck out to me too.
Honestly this felt really weird and gross to me
Whenever I read stories like this and the child never even comments themselves I always wonder if the child was even as upset as the parent actually makes it out to be (by losing possibly but I mean by the winner being trans). Imagine being supportive of your fellow athlete who happens to be transgender and then your mother has an article published about how angry you are.
This is what I was wondering. Even if the daughter is sad/angry she lost there's a massive difference between "I'm sad/angry I lost" and "I'm sad/angry I lost because my opponent was trans." Finally, poor losers are a thing, it shouldn't be news.
Pretty sure there have already been cases of entitled little school brats demanding to get a winner tested to see if she's transgender
??? The girl placed third she lost to another cis girl as well ????? And did this girl who won also win the championship or whatever? If she doesn't win the next round they'll conveniently be silent about it but if she does win they'll use it to be even more transphobic. These creeps just want to be hateful.
>Garcia easily outpaced the female runners Except the girl who won. They're really trying to pretend the second place runner was blowing away the competition.
Wait so this poor girl didn't even win? She just beat third place??? And they're still pulling all this crap acting like "trans bad and unfair to girls bc men are better than girls at everything always and forever and trans girls have male body so automatically better than any woman will ever be in her life" logic???? At least let her come first place before parading your child's skill issue around like that lol!
Image does say only first and second place get to go.
Your username. It applies to them.
We will have to go through this every time a trans woman wins any sporting event. If they win, it is because they are trans and no other reason. Ignore all the times trans women participated and did not win.
You could play for the Connecticut Sun and have been on HRT for like two years win the championship, but have the least amount of points during the playoffs regular season and finals and you would still get shit because you’re trans
This only encourage bigots to be even more upset. At this point, the clever thing to do is to create categories according to height, weight or any other relevant info. Elite athletes are elite despite their genitalia or gender.
I don't see any point in compromising with bigots because they'll be upset no matter what. Even if we banned trans people from competition they would complain that some cis girl is secretly trans.
You can’t compromise with bigotry have to beat it by any means necessary gen z needs our stonewall
As a Gen X’er, let me get in front and hold those fucking assholes back so you can get some good brick throws in. So proud of all y’all.
As a millennial: Bby do we need more bricks, I'm making a home depot run.
Some cis women have innate biological advantages over other cis women. Same with cis men. Having weight or height classes makes way more sense than splitting things by gender.
Tell that to the patriarchy.
Yeah y'know how pissed straight boys would get losing to women in sports?
I know of at least one male tennis champ who stood up for his female counterpart saying "why are you interviewing me, she's right there and she could kick my ass blindfolded". So yeah, straight guys can be sporting about this sort of thing... It depends on personality, not gender.
I disagree we should just give everyone their own event class and then they're all winners and nobody will ever be upset again. This will definitely not just cause more delusional ranting about kids these days
Some people are just better at shit than others including sports, I’m way better at fighting games than my female cousin is is it because I was born may I want to have a biological advantage? No, I’m just better because I play more. Vivziepop is better at art than I am. It’s because she’s a woman no
YES oh my gosh i’m tired of sports being split by sex or gender! It makes no sense!!!! And I don’t even like sports! You’re absolutely right that, like many martial arts and some forms of wrestling, sport competitions and such should be divided up by weight, height, skill level, again like many martial arts and wrestling do.
i did karate for 12 years when i still identified with my agab and had a good amount of cis girls who beat the shit out of me in our full-contact sparring matches. sports are definitely not as uneven between genders as people like to believe, it’s absolutely a self-fulfilling prophecy on some level
I’m impressed she can run so fast though. Her balls of steel must weigh her down and/or get in the way. /s
I just think people find it hard to admit they fucking suck at something. I'm dogshit at sports and am only really physically fit in the sense that I'm not morbidly obese. Does this make me a fundamentally worse human being who is less valuable, lovable, and what have you? No. Many people, however, seem to think these things do make them less worthy of life or attention, so they do whatever they can to convince themselves they're better than others at a thing. If the means through which they achieve this line up with their bigoted politics, all the better for them. Of course, there's the conversation to be had about the, problematic, notion that people have to pay attention to you and care about you for your presence to be "deserved," but that's a whole other conversation.
I also feel like this mother doesn’t see her daughter as a daughter. She sees her as an achievement because she failed at her dreams and now she’s projecting her dreams and stuff like that on her daughter. And if she fails, she has no worth to her because she’s her daughter and she wants her to be exactly like her. It’s thing parent thing a lot of parents do push their dreams onto their children, even though they’re completely different people with different hopes and dreams and desires
no one cares when a trans athlete loses because then their gender is not something to cry about for them
This person didnt *even* fucking win! And they're still harping on about it. Christ. At this point, any time anybody talks about sports I instantly tune it out.
First all, the trans athlete didn't win by any significant margin. The final result was well within the average of the other top cisgender athletes within the competition. There is no "unfair advantage" here, she was simply the better athlete in this race. Second of all, it's a competition and yes, silver medal syndrome is a thing and it sucks, but any real athlete knows you gotta learn to deal with it and move on. There will always be other races. Every real athlete knows, you figure out where you fell short in your own performance, learn from it, and use it as motivation to get better. If you get bested by another athlete, you learn how to strategize your own performance so that you can be better. Third of all, to quote Picard: 'It is *possible to make no mistakes*, and still lose. that is not a weakness; that is life.' Edit: Here are the results from the race itself in Womens 400m 2A. [https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/meet/520876/results/f/4/400m](https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/meet/520876/results/f/4/400m) * Garcia posted a time one second faster than second place. This is a comparable range given that other competitors in the final heat easily posted times 1 second or more ahead of the athlete behind them. * The range between first and eighth place in the final is under 4 seconds which is within the same range of just under 4 seconds as the finals in the 3a and 4a competitions. Also note Garcia's times throughout the season which are, again, comparable to her competitors in every event. [https://www.athletic.net/athlete/21283549/track-and-field/high-school](https://www.athletic.net/athlete/21283549/track-and-field/high-school) * Garcia's main race is the 400m for which she excels at and is very competitive. But she also raced in the 1600m, 3200m, 300m hurdles and relays, for which her results are all over the board. Including many 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th place finishes.
My god imagine being pressed over 1 second
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If she’s not taking anything, even playing the “trans girls have a biological advantage” devils advocate your question would be more appropriately phrased as “if I’m naturally taller than average and barely win a slam dunk contest, it’s not cheating?” To which I would reply, “nah, that’s stupid.”
Taking steroids and going on HRT or two different things one is a drug meant to BOOST muscle mass and the other one depending on if you take estrogen, literally decreases muscle mass there’s no advantage you would get by going on HRT you would be at a disadvantage
There were no steroids taken nor was there any cheating. If you knew anything about (1) transition and (2) sport science, you would understand that * Trans women will actively suppress testosterone production in their body to minimize masculine development. * There is a positive correlation between anaerobic performance and amount of testosterone within the body. Meaning that less tesosterone in the body negatively effects on performance. Trans women reduce active serum tesosterone to that compared to cis women. * What is the point of cheating in a high school track meet? With all the criticism trans athletes face, what external gains would they get from winning a high school race? There's no money, no medals, no sponsorships. There is nothing of extrinisic value to gain. What would anybody gain by cheating in a high school track meet? Do yourself a favor, educate yourself on the basic science and facts before you ask stupid questions.
I do have a genuine question I'll admit I am not as educated on strugles related to FtM as I am the ones MtF go though I am embarrassed to say But since FtM take steroids (least i think they do) what would be the ruling their would that not give them a advantage over other the guys or if not why
Typically, trans men on HRT are getting a bio-identical testosterone. They aim for testosterone levels within the typical range of cis men. Having around the same amount of testosterone in their body as a cis man does won't shouldn't give them an advantage over cis men.
O ok thnx you for teaching me something:)
I understand sport science. I have a decent understanding of transitioning. To address those points. 1- absolutely, they do. Undeniably true. The real question is did puberty begin before or after the start of transition because that's when the biggest physiological changes start to happen. Males have bigger frames and denser bones on average. 2- yes, less testosterone generally equates to worse performance. Again, undeniably true. On the flip side, what if you were able to put on muscle mass before transition? It's not like it will all be lost the second you start throwing estrogen into the mix. It's a two fold argument. How much of the gains were made pre transition and how much did the brain develop pre transition. There's a lot of studies pointing to higher levels of testosterone affecting the direction in which your brain develops, meaning you can create better muscle memory. You can learn patterns better. You have better spatial awareness and distancing. These can be clear cut advantages that don't necessarily disappear once you lower your testosterone. 3- there is no point, but I also don't think that the intention was to go cheat and be the best. The trans kid just wanted to compete where they feel comfortable. No problem. They didn't come in with bad intentions I'm sure but it's obviously going to make people think they did when they start winning. Basic human bias. In my opinion, (and I'm controversial or a trans phobe for this one according to some people), if women have women's sports and men have men's sports, why not have trans sports? This way nobody can complain about the fairness or unfairness. This way it isn't exclusively women's sports that get invaded by another gender (because it almost never happens that a women transitions to man and has any success competing against men, which should already highlight that your argument is kind of moot and based off inclusivity and not facts). I think trans leagues would be great to watch, obviously on the condition that we can find enough to fill a league. In the end, there can be advantages. It can also be pretty fair at lower levels where nobody has perfected their craft. At the elite levels where the smallest thing can change the outcome of a fight because they're otherwise extremely well matched up, being trans can be a huge advantage or disadvantage based on which way you're transitioning and the age you transitioned at in a competition.
If we were to split sports that way, we would end up with at least 5 categories; men, women, trans men, trans women, non-binary. Given that around 97%+ people identify as cis, there just wouldn't be enough to populate these sports, as such there would be little to no funding, access to facilities etc. What would actually happen is non-cis people would no longer be able to play sport. At the elite level, most athletes already have inate biological advantages, thatspart of how they got to that level. Michael Phelps produces less lactic acid than other elite swimmers, giving him a huge advantage. One of the biggest factors in elite performance is wealth, both individually and nationally. Countries that can pump money into sports tend to produce better athletes. People who can afford coaching, decent food, and spend more time training are more likely to get to the top level. Sport, especially at the elite level, isn't fair and never will be.
>Given that around 97%+ people identify as cis, there just wouldn't be enough to populate these sports, as such there would be little to no funding, access to facilities etc. What would actually happen is non-cis people would no longer be able to play sport. That's the point. Whenever one of these asshole bring up different catagorise that's what they want. No trans/nb folk doing any sports. It's quite blatant
Yep! Whenever you press them on the fact that there wouldn't be enough people for a "trans women" division, if they *do* respond to it it's always a "I don't care, too bad for them."
For your #1 & #2, it doesn't matter, after 1-2 years on estrogen and reduced (cis women's levels) testosterone all the muscle is gone, and to gain it again it would take a really long time taking testosterone, and for the bigger frames, trans women are at a disadvantage as there is less muscle to support the bigger frame. Now for your controversial opinion, why stop there? Why not not whites only sports?
Typical faux news too, misgenders Veronica throughout the article.
Transphobes clearly have no problem reconciling "protecting children" with doxxing them.
"Though it wasn't apparent Garcia was a biological male...", meaning she passed physically and was at no advantage whatsoever. This is quite literally just a skill issue.
So there was still one AFAB runner who got through. So you mean to say your daughter should try harder to beat her *and* the trans runner....
So this implied her daughter was third to a trans girl AND A CIS GIRL. But that doesn't get clicks!
If this was a problem it'd be so common to hear this it wouldn't be news anymore. Somehow it isn't but it's them trans kids being cheaters not that she lost to a second person and could easily have lost to a third random person if you replaced the trans girl.
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gotta love how the reporter just name drops a literal teenager, but let the grown ass woman throwing a temper tantrum hide behind a pseudonym 🤦🏽smh. also, how much of a snowflake do you have to be to get that mad because your kid doesn’t win? since the article said that it wasn’t apparent that the other runner is trans, it’s making me think that they have no idea what hrt does to your body, because if they did, they’d know that she has very minimal, if any physical advantage due to the fact that it would lower her testosterone levels and increase her progesterone and estrogen levels, putting her in the same physical advantage of the rest of the contestants, the fact that she beat the lady’s kid means that she likely trained more.
Skill issue, unironically
let me guess, she would have lost that spot even if the trans runner did not participate.
Skill issue :3
I’m sorry but you guys cannot be serious? If you genuinely believe this is okay then you’re happy with completely abolishing women’s sport and having everyone compete together.
A girl competed against other girls. What’s the issue?
Ya, pretty wild how unanimous and un-nuanced this comment section is for this specific situation
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Wow, really? You'd think, in that case, that trans athletes would be *consistently* winning athletic events. Instead of just, you know, occasionally winning.
I mean, trans women are still a minority after all. I don't think there are a lot of trans athletes.
Here the trans girl got second place and a cis girl got first, mom is complaining for nothing
Even if she lost to a cis girl, I still think it's not a fair competition. We can all agree that culturally and socially a trans woman is a woman, but we cannot pretend in biology they are the same thing.
Crazy. Didn’t know you have a science degree. I do. and reading these stupid ass comments from people who learn about scientific concepts from YouTube and Fox News is really wild. Coming from a scientist, a lot of people on this thread have no fucking idea about biology.
So you are telling me that there is no biological difference between XY and XX chromosome people? In physical attributes and characteristics? I think you need to go back to college. You are a scientist, science is factual, inclusion is not pretending facts don't exist anymore.
Chromosomes don't do shit to your physique, idiot. Hormones do. Don't pretend that you care about science
I wonder what would determine the type of hormones our body will produce? It's one thing to acknowledge trans women as women, because they are, but a very different thing is to pretend they weren't born male, because that is madness, we can't change biology, we can't pretend it's not a fact.
Tell me you don't know how HRT works without telling me you don't know how HRT works
tell me you don't know how puberty works without telling me you don't know how puberty works
Do you think Michael Phelps should be banned from competitive swimming?
Not arguing just lurking and got curious. What does Phelps have to do with puberty/HRT?
The way his body is built. Like, if he confessed he was actually a merman given human form, I'd see it. He is not built like normal people irrc even his shoulder muscles and stuff are shaped different (wider or something???). It's like he was built to swim instead of walk or run. Literally a biological advantage.
Oh that makes sense. Thank you!
He has longer arms than average, big feet and hands, a wide chest, and a longer torso compared to legs than average, which is advantageous in swimming. He also produces less lactic acid, even compared to other elite swimmers. If you were to engineer a human to be good at swimming, you'd basically build Phelps.
He has a longer torso with shorter legs while maintaining a wider wingspan. Not exactly a "merman given human form". This is like arguing that we should set a height limit on basketball or volleyball players which we obviously don't. Basically every sport has a body size/ratio that is suited to it, that doesn't mean its "unfair". Except combat sports that is, which we do set different leagues for different body types due to the massive advantage of size. And also except for the differences between the sexes where going through male puberty is massive advantage in every sport. Some biological advantage we allow, some we don't.
No. We acknowledge a fairness gap between the sexes and therefore categorized them into different leagues. Some sports do acknowledge fairness gaps in body shape/size (such as weight categories in combat sports) and so do have different leagues for them. Swimming is not such a sport.
So what you're saying is a biological advantage is fine as long as it is not because the person is trans
Actually once you start on estrogen, the body loses a lot of muscle mass, shifting it to a more feminine build and distributing and once someone has been taking it consistently for a few years, there is no difference between their body and that of a cis woman. Also, she doesn’t even hold the state record, she’s fast yes but that’s not the state record. That belongs to a cis woman.
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Do you think Michael Phelps should be banned from competitive swimming?
This comparison needs to be said more. Michael Phelps has distinct biological advantages that most other swimmers do not have. Those are celebrated, and as long as he has a dick and identifies as male, he gets to compete against other men who don’t have the same biological advantages no questions asked. When I was in Jr High football we were all scrawny little 12 year olds, but one kid physically developed a lot earlier than us. He was the same age, but looked like a 17-18 year old. He alone carried our team to win after win because he was so much bigger and stronger, no other kids could stop him. Was there a national outcry about it? No, because he was a biological male competing against boys, so no one gave a damn.
Don't share the sources of your research, of course, that would be too much. (Yes, it's sarcasm)
Not for nothing, but the trans student didn't win the event. They lost...to a cis girl.
"I did some research" aka I found some right winged propaganda nonsense and believe every word they say. I also refuse to look for actual scientific sources and tell everyone they're incorrect.
So, which part of being a man gives someone advantages in athletics? Is it the testosterone, that trans women suppress to levels lower then that of cis women? The fat distribution that is affected by the hormones we take? The genitals?
strength is stored in the balls
testosterone/puberty affect more than just muscle mass, its muscle efficiency as well, the red blood cell count, bone density and geometry, lung capacity, the list goes on. That doesn't just magically go away the moment you start HRT, nor does it go away after years. For example maintaining muscle is far easier than building it. A trans woman IS a woman, without any doubt at all. But to deny that male puberty has a biological effect is just plain wrong. I honestly think the answer is to let trans people go through the puberty of their choice by making puberty blockers for accessible.
They’ve actually done a fair amount of studies on that so far. Turns out no, there is no biological advantage and trans women do not disproportionately overtake in women’s sports. Look up Jessie Gender on YouTube and watch her video essay about trans athletes, covers everything you said and disproves it all with science and statistics.
There is no limit on how "biologically strong" a woman can be to be allowed to compete in sports.
If that was the case, female wrestlers like Becky Lynch and Rhea Ripley would not be allowed to wrestle because they’re fucking ripped
Well that's just not true, particularly when it comes to running. Several trans marathon runners found their speed dropped them back quite a bit, but averaging among the women where they had with the men, so they lost strength and speed, but not skill. But ya, fyi, HRT alters muscle mass, bone density, even lung capacity. An average Joe...or...Jean might not notice some of it, like the lung capacity, but an athlete would notice the changes quite a bit.
Fuck aaaaaaaall the way off. This is the kind of idiocy that Proud Boys spew.
I guess Rhea Ripley would automatically be at a disadvantage against me in a one V one match because I was born male
These are athletes against other athletes, not athletes against plebs. Totally insincere comparison.
No, it’s not
You are trained and practiced wrestler are you?
That stuff doesn’t matter apparently because I was born a man and therefore, I have a biological advantage over them because they are women
You are being purposefully thick it seems. If I were to assume you are actually arguing in good faith then I would have to explain how training for a sport also gives you an advantage in said sport...
If I truly believed I could beat a professional female lesson in a wrestling match solely because I am biologically male, they are biologically female I would not have made this post
I really don’t understand why this is such a downvoted opinion… yes HRT can somewhat level the playing field but it doesn’t just erase years of developmental differences. I understand the trans athlete didn’t win in this particular case but that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have a biological advantage. I really don’t think it’s transphobic to point this out.
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Ok boomer
No