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I sort of disagree. I don’t think you need to practice any particular religion or attend church regularly, but I think part of being a conservative, at least an American conservative, is rejecting moral subjectivism.
Believing that there are certain moral absolutes is inherently religious, in my opinion. You can try to work your way out of it in all kinds of ways, but at the same the end of the day, morality can only be objective if there is a reason for it to be.
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>it is currently, the US, very much associated, especially with evangelicals.
44% of Republicans attend church regularly versus 29% of Democrats. Would you say the Democrat party is 1/3 dominated by evangelicals?
https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/
I'm not honestly sure what point you are trying to make or why you downvoted me. Your source agrees with me, the right is much more associated with increased faith. Even the stat you typed supports that by 50% (44/29 = 1.51). That doesn't mean it is inherently religious, it just means it's composition has more religious people.
I'm pretty open here that I'm an atheist with leanings towards philosophical (not spiritual) satanism and no one's had any issue with me, and my opinions are not significantly outside the range of normal here.
What does this conserve? Libertarianism is not a “conservative” or “right wing” ideology and I can’t really understand why anyone lumps it in with the right. Just because democrats tend to support more government, it doesn’t follow that an ideology of less (or no) government is somehow aligned with conservatism or right politics. I’m probably not telling you something you don’t know, but this is one of those memes that won’t go away.
i think you misunderstand conservativism.
it is not simply about conserving anything political, if anything that's a left wing straw man.
it's about classical enlightenment values, conserving those
and those values are fundamentally libertarian.
also for all of history something like needing to present ID to buy a product or needing permission slips to buy things you will die without like medication would have been seen as an outrageous and intolerable insult to human dignity.
I don’t like arguing classifications because it just gets pedantic, but libertarianism is its own thing that doesn’t really exist on a modern left/right spectrum IMO. I don’t think agree conservatism is tied to classical enlightenment values. This is college educated view (pretty much all libertarians are highly educated white guys, guessing you are as well). Red America doesn’t know about or care about enlightenment values. They care about culture and a way of life and preserving it.
i disagree they might not speak about them the same way but here's a blue collar way to put the enlightenment values.
men know their own mind best: I know what's best for me and my family, not the state, not the UN me and my wife.
all men are created equal: self explanatory
all men are endowed with dignity by their creator: life's a life, all lives mean something.
investigation, not prayer or omen, are how you understand the world: this one is so self evident that in the modern era the idea that interpreting the flight of birds would be on par with checking a thermometer is utterly alien to modern people.
truth is manifest to all beings: again self evident even the vast majority of religious conservatives do not think that facts need to be determined by prayer, they know any person can measure the boiling point of water and a faithful man will not get a different result.
government is a mutually arranged system of man, it is not decreed by God: God might have given us instructions but congress sure isn't an act of God, that's normal men. the president is the president because some folks voted not because of divine providence.
agreements between men are the basis of society: your word is most precious thing you own, people saying what they mean and doing what they say is what makes the country work. there's no magic civic angel that does it for you just hard work.
Yeah I am saying I legitimately don’t think that’s what red state voters really care about. They care about their way of life, and those ideals are obviously implicit in that way of life, but they’d happily throw the abstract away if it meant their kids experienced their conception of an American way of life. Whatever that may be in a given locale.
i guess I see where you're coming from, I just see "mans home is his castle and your property rights in it should be absolute" and similar principles as the defining statement of both movements or close to it.
>it's about classical enlightenment values, conserving those
This honestly makes me cringe to read. Not an insult to you personally, just because it's sad that this has captured conservatism in parts of the West.
Conservativism is a political tradition dating back to thinkers like Edmund Burke and is specifically a reaction against enlightenment liberalism.
this is not the explanation of the conservative movement I have ever been told. I've always been told it started with classical liberalism and enlightenment values, especially the modern republican party. I've been to where it was founded, in Rippon, WI, and I've been to the small museum there.
exactly, it's another good example of horseshoe theory that once you get to the authoritarian extreme all authoritarians are a jealous state and you shall have no ~~nation~~ god before them.
being willing to cynically use religion seems more an auth right move, the communists usually just start shooting priests if it gets that far (e.g. pol pot compared to the fascists who were glad to borrow centrist religion)
Not who you're talking to. But to be extremely reductive, Satanism talks a lot about minding your own business. Don't mess with me, and I won't mess with you, etc. You can believe that without idolizing Satan.
philosophical satanism does not believe in literal supernatural beings at all, least of all a literal Satan that is the source of evil on earth.
they identify with the luciferian adversary archetype, most specifically the version from works like Milton's "Paradise Lost" as a symbol of freedom, independence and refusal to submit.
some also use it as a metaphor for living by the opposite of Christian values: revenge, not turning the other cheek, expecting others to take care of themselves, not charity, etc. but frankly most people are moderates on the topic because living like Ghengis Khan only works if you have a giant army of horsemen.
Satanism is certainly antithetical to conservatism, as well as being a weird mishmash of other philosophies with an edgy code of paint whose main intention is to be provocative.
Hyper-individualism (And even idealizing selfishness) with a very strong focus on personal freedom, hedonist (In the modern sense) indulgence and self-realization. Iirc satanists have also always been big on sexual "liberation".
I'm not a conservative but am right wing which most people see as the same thing these days.
Prioritizing American citizens. Respect for and promoting the family. An education system focused on preparing young people for life. Safe cities and public transport. Appropriate punishment for crimes. So on and so forth
Ideally we give opposite sex parents a created reward and kids up for adoption go to opposite sex parents before gay parents to help push for diversity in the raising of the kids
Mix raced, opposite sexed parents going to the head of the adoption line
How would you deal with equal protection considerations? Generally speaking treating people differently on account of race or sex isn’t really allowed in the law without good reason.
Should same sex couples who have children not be entitled to the same benefits opposite sex parents would be entitled to?
Are there any other policies or just this?
I oppose gov in marriage at all as I don’t think we should subsidize marriage. We did it in the past to try and boost the population but know that we have a better medical grasp there is no point in subsidizing infertile people. So I support the gov only giving tax breaks to people raising kids. I can think of no good reason to give married couples tax breaks
But out side of that I don’t give a shit what gay people do. And if there are kids to be adopted let gay couples adopt because it’s better than foster care
But ideally a mother and father is the best set of diversity to race a child (mixed race couples being ideal)
I'm a socially conservative Atheist from outside the United States and I agree with pretty much every position you'd expect from an American "Conservatarian" that isn't explicitly religious. Which means that I'm pro life, because I'm a no BS person who isn't afraid to simply be honest about what abortion is, killing. And I simply don't care if acknowledging that upsets a certain segment of people. I'm not necessarily hostile to people who don't agree with me on everything, but I'm also not in the business of going out of my way to be chums with people who don't share my values, so I have nothing to lose by being honest about how I feel about certain things. I think that if other atheists were the same more would be conservative as well.
When it all comes down to it, what the "other side" has to offer doesn't appeal to me and I struggle to understand how the leftist vision is seen as anything but dystopian. The "Left" (among which I include controlled opposition "center right" parties, like the Australian Liberals and British Tories, if you're socially progressive or acquiesce to that framework, you're a lefty in my book, regardless of economics) are hellbent on creating more laws and a dystopian centralized society, creating a immoral low trust antisocial culture, and destroying male identity. Just because I don't believe the world was made by a supreme being from Abrahamic mythology or that we have any grand purpose (which technically makes me a nihilist, depending on how you define it) doesn't make me willing to put up with all of those horrible things. As a human being my mind is evolved for survival and the things that the "other side" proposes (or is already doing) sends off alarm bells in my mind.
Individualism, personal responsibility, limited government. Freedom of religion.
I love that I can worship (or not worship) anyway I want to, and I think it's important to let people worship any way they want to as well
I am a staunch atheist.
I advocate for a market economy, low taxes, a strong military, strong police, protecting and celebrating tradition and heritage of the nation, etc.
Not sure if your looking for for anything more specific but I would consider myself a moderate conservative apart from the religious aspect.
That's an odd question for sure. I, as an atheist conservative, want what I'd guess most conservatives want. Smaller government, lower taxes, few babies killed by the pro-death side of abortion. To name a few things. Basically, I want a government that covers the basic tenets of its job. Like keeping me safe from foreign actors and maintaining the country's fidelity by keeping the borders locked down from illegal aliens.
I’m not an Athiest, rather I practice another religion. However you must know this, I am not a conservative because of my religion, I am conservative because of my other beliefs.
I personally believe in the following:
1. Traditional Values - I believe that traditional values such as family values are an important thing, and it’s important to remember that your culture is important. I believe in preserving my country and respecting the land I live on, because while our country is not perfect, it doesn’t mean I hate my country, in fact I love it.
2. Hard Work Ethic - Hard work pays off, and I believe that value is something you make. For example I am in University, and the main thing I focus on is working hard and enjoying life to the fullest. One exerpt I recommend would be [The Gospel of Wealth](https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/16-capital-and-labor/andrew-carnegies-gospel-of-wealth-june-1889/), by Andrew Carnegie. I also believe in Fiscal Conservatism too.
3. Respecting my Veterans - While I am not in the Military, I still respect my veterans who fight for this country, and veterans and active duty who are in here, thank you for your service! Veterans fight for this nation, and they are willing to risk their life for this country, and that earns mad respect from me.
4. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms - I believe in the second amendment, and I believe that it will always be important to our nation.
5. Liberty and Freedom - I especially agree with John Locke and his views on liberty and natural rights, because everyone is born with natural rights. Freedom is also something I believe in.
In my opinion, Religion is not specific to conservatism, there are many who are very religious all over the political spectrum. For example there are religious anarchists. Progressive Christians, you name it, they are all over the political spectrum.
Abortion of any kind is murder.
2A means I get to carry almost anywhere I go.
Women would be happier if they rejected feminism.
The federal government has usurped too much state and local authority.
Illegal immigration is a serious problem, and hurts the people with lower wage jobs the most.
We should pressure Ukraine into a peace deal, and give assurances to Russia that Ukraine will not join NATO. Also stop trying to recruit all of Russia's other neighbors into NATO.
Israel needs to solve their Hamas problem once and for all, even though that has and will result in significant Palestinian collateral damage. The US should stay out of any direct participation.
Government debt is a ticking time bomb. We need to reduce spending at least to 2019 levels, which means cutting approximately $1.5T in annual federal spending.
Pretty much the whole list of populist conservative positions.
I'm not atheist myself, but I have known quite a number of non-religious pro-lifers. I used to have tons of atheist and agnostic friends (polarization has whittled that down over the years, unfortunately) and probably around half of them were pro-life.
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That’d be me!
I’m about as much of a right-wing Republican as you can get. Will be happily voting Trump. I stand with conservatives on economic and social issues. Also other things like immigration, putting America first, 2A, etc.
If you want to go into specifics or have questions I’ll happily follow up and have that conversation.
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Conservativism is not inherently religious.
Agreed, Religion itself is not specific to religion, there are many all over the political spectrum who are religious.
I sort of disagree. I don’t think you need to practice any particular religion or attend church regularly, but I think part of being a conservative, at least an American conservative, is rejecting moral subjectivism. Believing that there are certain moral absolutes is inherently religious, in my opinion. You can try to work your way out of it in all kinds of ways, but at the same the end of the day, morality can only be objective if there is a reason for it to be.
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Absolutely, but it is currently, the US, very much associated, especially with evangelicals.
>it is currently, the US, very much associated, especially with evangelicals. 44% of Republicans attend church regularly versus 29% of Democrats. Would you say the Democrat party is 1/3 dominated by evangelicals? https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/
I'm not honestly sure what point you are trying to make or why you downvoted me. Your source agrees with me, the right is much more associated with increased faith. Even the stat you typed supports that by 50% (44/29 = 1.51). That doesn't mean it is inherently religious, it just means it's composition has more religious people.
I'm pretty open here that I'm an atheist with leanings towards philosophical (not spiritual) satanism and no one's had any issue with me, and my opinions are not significantly outside the range of normal here.
What does this conserve? Libertarianism is not a “conservative” or “right wing” ideology and I can’t really understand why anyone lumps it in with the right. Just because democrats tend to support more government, it doesn’t follow that an ideology of less (or no) government is somehow aligned with conservatism or right politics. I’m probably not telling you something you don’t know, but this is one of those memes that won’t go away.
i think you misunderstand conservativism. it is not simply about conserving anything political, if anything that's a left wing straw man. it's about classical enlightenment values, conserving those and those values are fundamentally libertarian. also for all of history something like needing to present ID to buy a product or needing permission slips to buy things you will die without like medication would have been seen as an outrageous and intolerable insult to human dignity.
I don’t like arguing classifications because it just gets pedantic, but libertarianism is its own thing that doesn’t really exist on a modern left/right spectrum IMO. I don’t think agree conservatism is tied to classical enlightenment values. This is college educated view (pretty much all libertarians are highly educated white guys, guessing you are as well). Red America doesn’t know about or care about enlightenment values. They care about culture and a way of life and preserving it.
i disagree they might not speak about them the same way but here's a blue collar way to put the enlightenment values. men know their own mind best: I know what's best for me and my family, not the state, not the UN me and my wife. all men are created equal: self explanatory all men are endowed with dignity by their creator: life's a life, all lives mean something. investigation, not prayer or omen, are how you understand the world: this one is so self evident that in the modern era the idea that interpreting the flight of birds would be on par with checking a thermometer is utterly alien to modern people. truth is manifest to all beings: again self evident even the vast majority of religious conservatives do not think that facts need to be determined by prayer, they know any person can measure the boiling point of water and a faithful man will not get a different result. government is a mutually arranged system of man, it is not decreed by God: God might have given us instructions but congress sure isn't an act of God, that's normal men. the president is the president because some folks voted not because of divine providence. agreements between men are the basis of society: your word is most precious thing you own, people saying what they mean and doing what they say is what makes the country work. there's no magic civic angel that does it for you just hard work.
Yeah I am saying I legitimately don’t think that’s what red state voters really care about. They care about their way of life, and those ideals are obviously implicit in that way of life, but they’d happily throw the abstract away if it meant their kids experienced their conception of an American way of life. Whatever that may be in a given locale.
i guess I see where you're coming from, I just see "mans home is his castle and your property rights in it should be absolute" and similar principles as the defining statement of both movements or close to it.
Yeah you can probably attach those ideals pretty directly to everything Americans value, I don’t disagree.
>it's about classical enlightenment values, conserving those This honestly makes me cringe to read. Not an insult to you personally, just because it's sad that this has captured conservatism in parts of the West. Conservativism is a political tradition dating back to thinkers like Edmund Burke and is specifically a reaction against enlightenment liberalism.
this is not the explanation of the conservative movement I have ever been told. I've always been told it started with classical liberalism and enlightenment values, especially the modern republican party. I've been to where it was founded, in Rippon, WI, and I've been to the small museum there.
I don't think the Republican party was started by conservatives
Do you think there are more atheists among libertarians than among more statist right-wingers?
Probably until you get to the extreme end of authoritarianism in which case it’s mostly atheist
exactly, it's another good example of horseshoe theory that once you get to the authoritarian extreme all authoritarians are a jealous state and you shall have no ~~nation~~ god before them. being willing to cynically use religion seems more an auth right move, the communists usually just start shooting priests if it gets that far (e.g. pol pot compared to the fascists who were glad to borrow centrist religion)
I would say yes and no. You have Agnostics, Jewish People, Athiests, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, you name it!
What does philosophical (not spiritual) Satanism mean?
Not who you're talking to. But to be extremely reductive, Satanism talks a lot about minding your own business. Don't mess with me, and I won't mess with you, etc. You can believe that without idolizing Satan.
philosophical satanism does not believe in literal supernatural beings at all, least of all a literal Satan that is the source of evil on earth. they identify with the luciferian adversary archetype, most specifically the version from works like Milton's "Paradise Lost" as a symbol of freedom, independence and refusal to submit. some also use it as a metaphor for living by the opposite of Christian values: revenge, not turning the other cheek, expecting others to take care of themselves, not charity, etc. but frankly most people are moderates on the topic because living like Ghengis Khan only works if you have a giant army of horsemen.
Satanism is certainly antithetical to conservatism, as well as being a weird mishmash of other philosophies with an edgy code of paint whose main intention is to be provocative.
what values do you find antithetical?
Hyper-individualism (And even idealizing selfishness) with a very strong focus on personal freedom, hedonist (In the modern sense) indulgence and self-realization. Iirc satanists have also always been big on sexual "liberation".
That’s a pretty long list considering that conservatism is separate from religion.
I'm not a conservative but am right wing which most people see as the same thing these days. Prioritizing American citizens. Respect for and promoting the family. An education system focused on preparing young people for life. Safe cities and public transport. Appropriate punishment for crimes. So on and so forth
I actually agree with a lot of these positions!
Your list is common sense 👍🏻
>Respect for and promoting the family. What does this mean in actual policy?
A mother and father together raising kids
How does that translate to policy though?
Do you want ideal or plausible Plausible is tax breaks to married couples raising children in two parent homes.
I guess ideal. Since the plausible one you mentioned is already a thing
Ideally we give opposite sex parents a created reward and kids up for adoption go to opposite sex parents before gay parents to help push for diversity in the raising of the kids Mix raced, opposite sexed parents going to the head of the adoption line
How would you deal with equal protection considerations? Generally speaking treating people differently on account of race or sex isn’t really allowed in the law without good reason. Should same sex couples who have children not be entitled to the same benefits opposite sex parents would be entitled to? Are there any other policies or just this?
People don't have equal protections now. Affirmative action comes to mind.
Which got struck down. Do you care to answer the questions or…
Does this mean you oppose gay marriage?
I oppose gov in marriage at all as I don’t think we should subsidize marriage. We did it in the past to try and boost the population but know that we have a better medical grasp there is no point in subsidizing infertile people. So I support the gov only giving tax breaks to people raising kids. I can think of no good reason to give married couples tax breaks But out side of that I don’t give a shit what gay people do. And if there are kids to be adopted let gay couples adopt because it’s better than foster care But ideally a mother and father is the best set of diversity to race a child (mixed race couples being ideal)
I'm a socially conservative Atheist from outside the United States and I agree with pretty much every position you'd expect from an American "Conservatarian" that isn't explicitly religious. Which means that I'm pro life, because I'm a no BS person who isn't afraid to simply be honest about what abortion is, killing. And I simply don't care if acknowledging that upsets a certain segment of people. I'm not necessarily hostile to people who don't agree with me on everything, but I'm also not in the business of going out of my way to be chums with people who don't share my values, so I have nothing to lose by being honest about how I feel about certain things. I think that if other atheists were the same more would be conservative as well. When it all comes down to it, what the "other side" has to offer doesn't appeal to me and I struggle to understand how the leftist vision is seen as anything but dystopian. The "Left" (among which I include controlled opposition "center right" parties, like the Australian Liberals and British Tories, if you're socially progressive or acquiesce to that framework, you're a lefty in my book, regardless of economics) are hellbent on creating more laws and a dystopian centralized society, creating a immoral low trust antisocial culture, and destroying male identity. Just because I don't believe the world was made by a supreme being from Abrahamic mythology or that we have any grand purpose (which technically makes me a nihilist, depending on how you define it) doesn't make me willing to put up with all of those horrible things. As a human being my mind is evolved for survival and the things that the "other side" proposes (or is already doing) sends off alarm bells in my mind.
Individualism, personal responsibility, limited government. Freedom of religion. I love that I can worship (or not worship) anyway I want to, and I think it's important to let people worship any way they want to as well
I am a staunch atheist. I advocate for a market economy, low taxes, a strong military, strong police, protecting and celebrating tradition and heritage of the nation, etc. Not sure if your looking for for anything more specific but I would consider myself a moderate conservative apart from the religious aspect.
I don't see what the two have to do with each other, the question doesn't make sense
That's an odd question for sure. I, as an atheist conservative, want what I'd guess most conservatives want. Smaller government, lower taxes, few babies killed by the pro-death side of abortion. To name a few things. Basically, I want a government that covers the basic tenets of its job. Like keeping me safe from foreign actors and maintaining the country's fidelity by keeping the borders locked down from illegal aliens.
I’m not an Athiest, rather I practice another religion. However you must know this, I am not a conservative because of my religion, I am conservative because of my other beliefs. I personally believe in the following: 1. Traditional Values - I believe that traditional values such as family values are an important thing, and it’s important to remember that your culture is important. I believe in preserving my country and respecting the land I live on, because while our country is not perfect, it doesn’t mean I hate my country, in fact I love it. 2. Hard Work Ethic - Hard work pays off, and I believe that value is something you make. For example I am in University, and the main thing I focus on is working hard and enjoying life to the fullest. One exerpt I recommend would be [The Gospel of Wealth](https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/16-capital-and-labor/andrew-carnegies-gospel-of-wealth-june-1889/), by Andrew Carnegie. I also believe in Fiscal Conservatism too. 3. Respecting my Veterans - While I am not in the Military, I still respect my veterans who fight for this country, and veterans and active duty who are in here, thank you for your service! Veterans fight for this nation, and they are willing to risk their life for this country, and that earns mad respect from me. 4. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms - I believe in the second amendment, and I believe that it will always be important to our nation. 5. Liberty and Freedom - I especially agree with John Locke and his views on liberty and natural rights, because everyone is born with natural rights. Freedom is also something I believe in. In my opinion, Religion is not specific to conservatism, there are many who are very religious all over the political spectrum. For example there are religious anarchists. Progressive Christians, you name it, they are all over the political spectrum.
You should reconsider Locke. His philosophy has helped give rise to enlightenment liberalism that have undermined things like family and tradition.
Abortion of any kind is murder. 2A means I get to carry almost anywhere I go. Women would be happier if they rejected feminism. The federal government has usurped too much state and local authority. Illegal immigration is a serious problem, and hurts the people with lower wage jobs the most. We should pressure Ukraine into a peace deal, and give assurances to Russia that Ukraine will not join NATO. Also stop trying to recruit all of Russia's other neighbors into NATO. Israel needs to solve their Hamas problem once and for all, even though that has and will result in significant Palestinian collateral damage. The US should stay out of any direct participation. Government debt is a ticking time bomb. We need to reduce spending at least to 2019 levels, which means cutting approximately $1.5T in annual federal spending. Pretty much the whole list of populist conservative positions.
I'm not atheist myself, but I have known quite a number of non-religious pro-lifers. I used to have tons of atheist and agnostic friends (polarization has whittled that down over the years, unfortunately) and probably around half of them were pro-life.
Why are you conflating religion with conservatism?
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That’d be me! I’m about as much of a right-wing Republican as you can get. Will be happily voting Trump. I stand with conservatives on economic and social issues. Also other things like immigration, putting America first, 2A, etc. If you want to go into specifics or have questions I’ll happily follow up and have that conversation.
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Why are you against collectivism? Most traditional values are collectivist to an extent.