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The statement "The current wiring will blow the element" is not an accurate statement in any way and indicates the plumber has no idea what he is talking about as far as the electrical part of his job.
It's pronounced Electric Tickle.... ššš Honestly 240 volt isn't that bad... Makes you piss your pants a little bit, but I keep a spare pair in the truck along with a comb so my hair will stop sticking up.
I wired a brand new water heater for a customer. It failed in a week. Plumber told the customer that I wired it incorrectly and will need to replace it. I found that the lower element failed and shorted to ground. Plumber had to replace under warranty....never trust a plumber unless they are giving you the specifics on various types of shit and piss....
I'm a physical plant maintenance type, so I often explore the depths of the entire alphabet of hepatitis on top of being a commercial/industrial electrician. Fortunately, today was just the mind-numbing monotony of rewiring the fluorescent fixtures found in every government building built from the '20s through the Carter Administration for ballast bypass LED.
I meet trade employees that are very knowledgeable about the basics of most trades. I also meet some that I am surprised still have a full complement of fingers and manage to survive showing up for work despite gaping holes in competence.
It's a simple series/parallel. You remove the ballast, the tombstones on one end of the fixture will be wired directly to line voltage, and the opposing end to neutral. You then mark them for future reference. The bulbs are marked with an L and N accordingly, it's a small switch mode supply LED driver inside so some (not all) are polarized.
I have been happy with both Sylvania and GE Current in both fluorescent equivalent and bypass, and we've installed a scary number of cases of them. The daylight feel of the 5000k and 6000k color temperature ones is worth the price of admission alone, although 6000k is better with some form of diffuser to make it less harsh. We've been able to de-lamp and run every other row or single bulb in dual fixture in some facilities, saving tons of power.
I complained that most of the fluorescent tubes in one of our labs were out so the facilities guys replaced everything with 6500K LEDs. It was painful. The rest of the lab spaces are 4000 and the halls are 5000. I couldnāt even go into the 6500 lab until they replaced them with 5000.
You Can use the same fixtures just cut out the ballast. Wire the lights directly Lots of YouTubeās on it. I did my whole warehouse for 500$ in bulbs and an afternoon of time. So much brighter and less power.
Conventional wisdom has it that any idiot can be a plumb/elecr/roof/landscape/mason/millwright; and while we have a cohort of THOSE, the ones that hire a hypnotist to coach them through the licensing test, most are actually fairly smart capable journeypeople. Pro tip: find a woman contractor. They will be dedicated to working that job because uphill sexism; they are gonna prove those assholes wrong; theyāve worked under a microscope their whole career; and they appear to be, to the last woman, bright, strong, pretty together, real insurance, real bonded. Nice, many of them.
I'm federal, but same idea. Division of labor amongst the crew we have is directly related to skill set and availability, but you have to know enough about everything to either repair it or know it's in the scope of tasks we contract because it is not feasible for the 15 people in my state to pull off with available tools and training.
Local but all labor issues are federal. Don't know why. But we are the same way. Budgets restrict our contract work so we do a lot more manual la or than we like. Think digging and repairing sewer pipes that are 6 ft down to major plumbing repair. One thing we don't touch is gas lines. Other than shut them.off.
I hired a plumber to do some replumbing in my basement. One of the things was to turn the main shutoff valve so I could actually get to it. While he was doing this he sees the ground wire and tells me early in his career if he had to disconnect or connect the ground wire he didn't because he didn't know what it was for. Apparently his brother is an electrician and told him he is a dumbass and needs to connect the ground wire back up.
Had the exact same thing happen, the plumber didn't open the valve and told us to turn on the heater, heater element failed because it was heating air and not the cool water only reason we didn't end up being the fall guy was having time stamped photos on the valve not open
Yea, Iād be worried about this. Even assuming the wiring isnāt sufficient, the risk is starting a fire, not blowing the element, whatever that means. Itās like heās equating electricity to water pressure.
They sound like they're about as good as me with electrical work. I wired up my replacement exhaust fan. The first switch controlled the lights. The second switch also controlled the lights and caused me great anguish.
No. Your wiring doesn't need upgrading providing it was correct for previous wh.
3380w is the wattage at 208v.
4500w is the wattage at 240v. (You have this)
If you live in the US.
Article 422.13 (Storage-type water heaters)
Anything less than 120 gallons shall be sized not smaller than 125% of the rating of the water heater.
Yeah, you'd only have 208 in a dwelling if you're in an apartment with networked metering. Or you have 3 phase service to your house, which I've never seen, but I suppose it might happen somewhere.
My Cousin has 3 phase to his residential shop/house. But it's more shop than house. Cnc machines, lifts, cold saw, crane, plasma cutter, etc... he likes to build and tinker. He did have to pay a lot to get it installed though.
It's the wattage at 208V instead of 240V. If you have a normal split phase service, you'd use the 240V wattage. If you have a 3 phase service or are in multi-family building that has a 3 phase service and provides 208V single-phase to the units, then you'd use the 208V wattage.
ETA: In either case, if the wiring was properly installed for the old unit it will still definitely work for this unit.
Heās wrong. Whether heās being honest or not depends on if heās an idiot. They donāt put ID plates on plumbers like they do on water heaters, so I canāt tell you from where Iām sitting.
Not sure what the problem would be using the existing service to the original W/H. They are both rated at 4500W at 240V, so I guess I am a little confused about what the problem would be. Maybe there is some other detail that the electrician did not relate to you, but on the surface I don't see a problem.
At 240V and 4500W, both the new heater and the old heater will draw 18.75A. The 30A breaker is fine.
The original heater had a dual voltage rating, of either 208V or 240V. These supply voltages would each produce 3380W or 4500W accordingly. You were supplying the old heater with 240V, so it was heating at 4500W. The new heater has a single rating of 4500W at 240V, which is a perfectly fine replacement for the dual voltage heater. The is not in an industrial/commercial application, correct? This is a residential water heater?
I have a family of 5. We use a 40g water heater and have never had an issue with the amount of hot water.
We even had family from out of town and had both showers going at the same time for 3 or 4 people each back and didn't run out.
I'd ask for and actually look up his license status. This is very very basic stuff for any equipment installer, not just an electrician.
If he's unable to read a very well laid out equipment label, for equipment he specializes in, he sure as shit wouldn't be touching anything of mine ever again, license or not.
No, your wiring is fine, it's exactly what I should be. Source: I just had to replace the entire service for a rheem 4500 at 240v water heater, it needs a 30amp 240 breaker, that's what you have
Donāt listen to him ! That just indicates if the supply voltage is 208 volts it would be 3380 watts and the other number indicates if your supply voltage is 240 volts itās 4500 watts. Itās just an either this or that number but the original installation wouldāve required # 10 awg copper conductors with a 30 amp breaker, this also satisfies the new tank.
Your plumber apparently doesn't know enough about electrical to do a proper water heater install, the 3380 number doesn't apply unless you have 3 phase power. Your new water heater is using the exact same 4500 watts as your old one. Are you sure he's actually a plumber and not a handyman?
My question is what happened to the old heater? If itās no longer heating water then it could be as simple as changing out the elements or putting new thermostat on it. Water heaters are pretty simple devices and the parts to replace are cheap.
Based on the manufacturing date of 2003, it's a 20 year old water heater. It's safe to say that it's either leaking or will be soon. My last house had a 15 year old water heater, I hoped I'd get another year out of it, but it sprung a big leak a few months after moving in, overflowed the drain pan and got everything on the garage floor wet.
At least it was in the garage and wasn't inside the house in a utility closet -- I toured one house where they decided to put the water heater in a third floor closet, not sure why they did that, if it leaks it's going to be a big mess. And some poor plumber has to drag it down 3 flights of stairs.
Yeah, my water heater is about 15, I flushed it every year and have replaced the rod twice.
My dads heater is something like 25 years old now and still going strong, I believe.
Everything is too expensive now days to not do regular maintenance on them to keep them going long as possible.
Is this an actual licensed plumber? Iām kinda shocked if they know this little about electrical.
Your old water heater could be wired for 240V or 208V (3 phase). 208V 3 phase is exceptionally rare in single family residential. Based on the breaker photo you added, youāre wired for 240V 30A which is the common standard and is sufficient for the new water heater.
honestly, i would not hire an electrician, Iād find a different plumber.
!! Itās single phase or three phase there is no ā2 phaseā. You have a single phase voltage of 208 volts between 2 poles of a three phase system. Without getting into anymore needless detail for this situation what you currently have is sufficient for your new tank. Any 1st year electrician could confirm that.
Looks to be the same power draw to me. If the wire is big enough to handle 4500W it's fine for both machines. The wire is sized to mach the breaker and not the machines coils anyway, and sounds like this is probably on a 30 amp breaker with wire big enough to handle 30 amps. That calculation is exactly the same for both units.
In all situations where youāre going to spend a couple thousand or more, itās a good idea to get at least 2 quotes (3 is better). If all of them are telling you the same thing then theyāre correct. I had my water heater replaced about 3 months ago (gas) and I got quotes of $3800. $2600, and $1800. All quoted the same brand & similar time estimates. I normally go with the midrange price but the guy that gave the $1800 quote was the only thing to walk me through the entire process and seemed to be the most informed. I went with him & he had the old one out & the new one in in less than 4 hours with all new pipes, drain pan, etc. Iāve since seen his reviews several times on social media and all are glowing. The most expensive is one of the largest plumbing companies in the area with tv ads all the time. I guess they have to pay for all that advertising.
What the hell does he mean "the current wiring will blow the elements"?
Your existing wiring is fine for the new water heater. The old one and new one both use 4500 watts at 240 volts
The only way I can think of to "blow" an electrical element based on incoming power would be if you applied more voltage to the element than it was designed for. But what I def can't think of is how your wiring would be in a state that caused it to deliver more voltage...because it's basically impossible. The only worry would be that the new water heater drew more amps while running than the old one did. I didn't really look at the labels lol but if the amp draw and voltage match then the wattage will match. And if it's the same then you should be gtg as far as new one being compatible. Your wiring could be damaged or something and that would cause of a risk of fire in the building but I don't see how this guy would know that unless he was checking voltage during operation and found it dropping significantly. Still wouldn't cause an element to blow tho so that part is def sus
Reminds me of the time my stepfather explained that you can't jump a 12V motorcycle from a car, because the mechanic told him that "even though they're both 12V the car has too many amps and will burn up the starter motor on the bike".
Theyāre both 4500watts divided by 240V is 18.75amps. 18.75A is too much for an 20A breaker (load at 80%) so youāve got the next common size up at 30A which is fine. Electrically theyāre the same. Iād be more worried about going from 80 gallons to 50 gallons. Plumbers only know 3 things man. Paydays Friday, shit rolls downhill, and donāt chew your nails.Ā
The dual ratings are associated with the dual voltages on the old label: At 240V single phase both heaters are identically rated to consume 4.5kW (18.75A). Connected across 2 poles of 208V 3 phase with all else equal, it will only draw 3.3kW (16.25A) Power ratio is the square of the voltage ratio, being a resistive load. New heater merely lacks the 208V rating. If your service is 240V single phase, the heaters are essentially identical. If you have 208V service, full compliance and insurance coverage may require a rating (label) for that. If your wiring was up to code for the old heater, it is just fine for the new one (30A, 10ga. wiring is standard headroom for such an appliance). Only crony capitalism would suggest otherwise.
I'm an electrician. Your plumber is either terribly misinformed or is trying to rip you off. Since he hasn't suggested just replacing the elements and thermostats, I would say he's trying to rip you off. As many others have said, the breaker is correctly sized, and the wire probably is also. Should be #10.
[Bradford White RE250T6-1NCWW 50 Gallon Upright Electric Water Heater - 208/230 Volt - 4500 Watts](https://www.totalhomesupply.com/p/bradford-white-re250t6-1ncww-50-gallon-upright-electric-water-heater-208-230-volt-4500-watts?gad_source=1)
As long as the wire is 10 gauge you are perfectly fine. It actually recommends you change the breaker to a 2 pole 25 amp breaker. Which is about $35 to $40 at Home Depot. The brand you have is a Square D QO 2 pole breaker.
Your plumber either doesnāt understand electrical and wiring which might be the case or heās trying to scam you to make extra money.
(and for OP's benefit: yes the brand of breaker matters. You need a breaker that is listed for use in your specific panel and cross-brand listing isn't common)
Canada lol. Just googled our home depot and they only have them for leviton panels which is band new here and never used. I do keep stock on them for QBH, BQL, NCO, BR, Q and QO but cannot get them from home depot.
Edit: typically we just round up to 30amps and its completely fine.
Thatās the wattage. Heating elements are a resistive load, they only draw what they need because of physics. Wattage is a relationship of amps and voltage. Now if for some stupid reason you have #12 wire instead of #10 that would definitely require an electrician.
The dual rating is for people like me who work in buildings that have 3-phase power (instead of your residential 2 hot legs that equal 240 volts, in commercial/industrial there are 3 that through some reasons I'll skip are 208 volts). The ratings reflect how many watts are used at the voltage you provide it, which would be the rating for 240.
Your plumber needs to stay in his lane, or learn the first thing about electrical appliances that he will be attaching. It sounds like he's either:
1. Incompetent
2. Ignorant
3. Trying to lay-up a service call from his electrician buddy who is probably not a licensed electrician/some other scam
4. Looking for an excuse to bail on your job.
Honestly, I might want a different plumber to check that the plumbing was done right. Appliance calls are not exactly rare for a residential plumber, and almost all electric water heaters except very small ones are rated for either. I wish you luck.
Not in the same realm, but #4 hits hard to me. I used to detail cars ($300+ packages) and if someone came in at me with "my car isn't that dirty" or "my buddy can do XYZ" then I just ghosted the person. Not worth the hassle or headache for missing a spec of dust from their clothes and having to re-do a 12+ hour job.
4500 Watts at 240v,Ā 3380 Watts at 208v.
Bradford White unit only lists 240v, Rheem shows both.Ā
Unless he measured your voltage as being low, and his sparky buddy is installing a boost transformer, nothing will change.Ā
Is your plumber a home Depot guy?Ā
Iām an electrician and as long as there is #10 wire going to that 2 pole 30 you are definitely good with your existing wiring. That being said a plumber wanting an electrician to come wire up the hot water heater is not necessarily him trying to take advantage of you. He might not understand that the 4500 watts are for 240 or he might just not be comfortable wiring the unit himself. Thatās why heās a plumber and the other guy is an electrician. Just like I wouldnāt put the faucet in a bathroom after I wired up the lights and receptacle lol different licenses do different parts of the job
Plumber needs to stick with plumbing. Heās mentally retarded if he actually thinks this. Itās 10AWG at 240V with a 30A double pole. If you had a previous electric water heater (which obviously you did) then you already have everything you need.
NEVER downsize a water heater. Going from an 80gal to a 50 is just dumb. Outside of the fact that he seems incompetent on the very basic electrical requirements of products he should be an expert on, the downsizing alone would make me find another plumber.
I did that at my last house, I heard about it every single day from my wife. Went from a 50 to a 40 because it was just us two living there and there were out of 50ās at the store I was at. Worst decision Iāve made to this day.
Power = Voltage x Current.
4,500 = 240 volts x 18.75 amps
Voltage = Amps x Resistance
240 V = 18.75 amps x 12.8 ohms
So the heating element in the water heater is 12.8 ohms... this is important because if you put this water heater on lower voltage, it will pull less current and less overall wattage.
208 vac = 16.25 amps x 12.8 ohms
16.25 A x 208 VAC = 3,380 watts.
10 AWG is good for 30A, so your plumber needs to call Roto Rooter because he's full of shit.
He's full of shit is the short answer. All household stuff runs on 110 or 220. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Read the manual of the new heater to understand
I had a plumber quote me $850 to replace an ignition coil($20 part) on my water heater. I already told him thatās what I needed and I only called him assuming he would have quick access to parts. He said he would have to order the part and it would be 3-4 days(3-4 days without hot water!). I said āgood day sirā and ordered my own parts next day air for $100 total and changed it my self in less than 2 minutes.
Tbh Plumber is being honest because he said he needs to hire or you do.
He doesn't know but does know enough that he isn't sure it isn't going to cause problems and wants to call a professional in.
Your fine but that's a good plumber who's taking the job seriously instead of it'll probably be fine.
And there's 0 reason the plumber should know to be honest.
Your plumbtrician needs replaced. Most of the good plumbers can at least wire the things they install on a regular basis... If you can cut threads you can strip a wire and use a screwdriver to affix it to an element.
**Attention!**
**It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods.
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Hire a plumber whoās replaced water heaters before! The 3380W is the wattage if wired to a 208v circuit. The Rheem is rated at 4500W at 240V and 3380W at 208V. As shown on the nameplate as 240/208 and 4500/3380. The Bradford White is only rated for 4500W at 240V.
If you do have a 208V feed then you would need a W/H with elements rated for 208V.
If the question is the wiring to the W/H this can be distinguished by the outer jacket of the wiring if installed since manufacturers change in outer jacket coloring. Otherwise the wiring should be marked with the AWG sizing.
Typically rating for Romex wiring
White outer jacket - #14 awg - 15A breaker
Yellow outer jacket - #12 awg - 20A breaker
Orange outer jacket - #10 awg - 30A breaker
4500 / 240 = 18.75 Amps
30 x .8 = 24 max amps on a 30 amp breaker
30 amps requires 10 gauge wire
10 gauge wire has orange sheathing
If your wire size checks out, the only issue would be that the wire may not be long enough which would require a junction box.
Then, you may need different parts to connect it securely to the new water heater.
This response is mostly true, butā¦
Old water heater was 240V or 208V single phase, it says right on the label. Not ātwo phaseā (???) or three phase.
The same wiring and breaker can be used. As others have said, the old heater lists the 208V wattage as well as the 240V. Note that even though there are two elements, only one will be on at a time. This should have a 30A dual pole breaker ans 10ga wire, same as original.
He is a plumber not an electrician! I would worry that he doesnāt know how to wire a HWH.
Assuming you actually do have a 208 V service, which is highly unlikely unless you live in a condo. What is his plan? Is it to have the utility company provide you with a 240 V service? Thatās not going to happen. Ask him if he is going to have the electrician add a buck-boost transformer to increase the voltage and what the cost will be.
Most likely you have a 240 V service. A 240 V HWH will work perfectly fine on 208 V if that is what you have. It will take longer to heat and elements will probably last longer. Blowing a HWH element by reducing the voltage is not a thing.
The installation sheet for that model does call for a 25 amp breaker rather than 30 amp. Hum! So code requires that the breaker be at least 25 amp to be no less than 125% but doesnāt say it canāt be more.
One thing you should get now is an anode for your hot water heater write the data you put in the hot water heater. Every 5 years replace the anode or have replaced. If you do this you hot water heater will last for almost for ever .that is why they give you a 5 year warranty the anode is the sacrificial element once it's gone the hot water heater starts rotting out
Just an FYI, depending on where you live there might be some really good rebates on heat pump based water heaters, often called hybrid electric water heaters. Unless your basement is very cold, they only use 400-800watts when heating the tank instead of 3-4k.
"I need to replace it immediately"
How did your hot water heater fail?
If it isn't leaking is it just not heating? You can replace componants like thermostates and heating elements without replacing the whole HW heater. Granted it is 21 years old but that doesn't automatically dictate the heater needs replacement.
Both heaters have of max of 4500 watts so I don't see a problem. If you are handy it is easy to replace the water heater yourself. Many have screw-on flex hoses. The wiring is no more difficult that a electrical outlet or switch. Lowes has a good video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AflWO5wMcoE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AflWO5wMcoE)
4500w Ć· 240 volts = 18.75amps
18.75 amps x 1.25 = ~23.4amps
So your #10 wire, 30amp breaker is sufficient, and your plumber is wrong based on the information provided. If you think he is purposesfully being dishonest or trying to get more money out of you, tell him when he picks up his check for the work, he can drop off a copy of the passed inspection report from your local plumbing inspector.
Edited for grammer
.
If you using 208 volts the wattage is 3380 but Iām pretty sure youāre using 240 volts so itās using 4500w
So if you do the math 4500watts/240volts= 18.75amps and youāre able to use 80% of the breaker so 80% of a double 30amp is 24amps youāre fine heās trying to get more money from you.
If the tank is in the same place as the old one then the plumber literally just need to attached the line to the designated spot on the tank. Takes all of 2 minutes.
They are the same. 3380w is the watts drwan at 208volts. So 3380 / 208 = 16.25 amps or 4000 / 240 = 16.66 amps most 240volts equipment will run at 208volts just fine. Your plumber should stick to pipes, shit and water.
Just had a water heater replaced and needed to hire an electrician to get it working after, the plumbers were clueless. Iād request he install his part and choose your own electrician
At least he's telling you to contact someone who understands electricity while he doesn't... But he's wrong about the numbers not matching, that lower wattage is what you'd get if you installed this in a 208V system, but since your home is 240V, you will still get the full 4500 Watts of heating power it's rated for.
That is a power-rating for the heating-elements, it comes baked-into-the cake, in other words, you get the right heating-element part-number and hook it up to the correct voltage....not rocket-science.
You probably don't need a entire water heater, just replace the thermostat and elements. Usually can get them as a kit for $80. Somebody just wants some money
Seems like he is not being honest about the electrical stuff. I would also worry about the water heater being replaced considering the "electrical" recommendations.
Might just need an element kit.
Divide watts by volts to find amps
The info on the label shows two different heater power ratings depending upon what model it is.
From what I see you have a 30 amp breaker but you will have a 33+ amp load.
Nope.
Either get the model with less amp draw ( longer recovery time ) or upgrade your electrical panel.
If you are in a residential home in the US. Yo u have single phase power coming in. The new water heater will work just fine. Spec for spec, they are the same.
If you look up an amperage calculator, 4500W Max is 19 or less amps. So as far as the breaker is concerned it's fine.
Assuming everything was done to code your wiring will be fine.
There's more to this than just that though. We'd have to see how each are wired (or look it up) to understand if the plumber meant they wiring is different (which I doubt)
Iām very curious what prices youāve received. I recently had a 55gal installed, paid $1750. Ā My plumber came highly recommended from several people, but the price still seemed pretty high for what I was expecting.Ā
The only thing that could possibly be an issue is the 1st unit can be 240v or 208v while the 2nd unit can only be 240v. The difference between 240v and 208v is the 2nd leg is 120 degrees out instead of 180 degrees out so if your previous one was wired for 208v instead of 240v then yes it could be a problem. That is easily tested with a meter to rule it out though. The watts (the number with the w behind it) is the voltage times the amps and the reason the 1st unit shows two different watt values is that it is telling you the value of one using 240v / the value of the other using 208v.
These comments are funny. I've been a plumber for 20 years and I am the Plumbing Project Manager for a commercial company in Texas. The two different wattage numbers correspond to their respective voltages. Your old heater is capable of being connected to 240 volts or 208 volts. 240v/4500w and 208v/3350w. The lower the voltage, the lower the wattage on these elements. Lower wattage means less amp draw by the element. The only reason the wires would matter here is that the gauge of the wire determines the amp load it is rated for.
More than likely, your wire sizing is fine, as well as the braker rating. That being said, I'm not your plumber, and I haven't seen everything in person. I also do not know what state you're in. Some states have extremely low quality licensing requirements for particular trades. Some are better. ZHEither way, if you are not comfortable with a plumbers assessment of your issue, ask for their supervisors phone number. Tell them you want an explanation of the work and not just an opinion. If you aren't believing or comfortable with what you're being told, there is almost always a good reason. I take phone calls from customers who want clarification of a plumber's recommendations often. I often drive out myself to double check work and or assessments my plumbers make for customers as well.
So is it remotely possible that what he said is true but also very unlikely. Bottom line, if you don't trust him, get a second opinion.
That plumber should stick to plumbing. They are the same, the new one just doesn't list as verbose of a spec.
The 4500W is the rating for 240V power supply (most single family homes), the 3380W is for places with 208V power (common in apartments with commercial power from the utility).
Its like comparing the size of a garden hose filling a bucket, with more water pressure (voltage) you can flow slightly more water in the same time. But with a bit less, nothing bad happens except it takes a little longer to accomplish the same job.
The current drawn by the water heater is the same regardless of voltage. Watts = voltage * amps (current), so the 208 will yield a lower power (watts) than the 240.
You should get a different plumber to look at it. This one skipped some of his training. If you got an electrician, they could probably install the water heater. The only plumbing part is the hot and cold switch over which are probably threaded connections. The instructions that come with the heater explains how to hook it up. Also, if the breaker is undersized, the heater would just trip the breaker. It wouldn't burn down the house. If a larger breaker is put in, but the wire size is not increased, that would be dangerous. The breaker protects the wire and the wire needs to be big enough to handle the rated current of the breaker.
I'm an electrician. If your 30A breaker and wired were sufficient for your old 4500w hot water heater then it's just fine for the new one. We're simply applying 208/220 to coils. The hot water heater is nothing more than a toaster
To calculate amperage you take the wattage and divide it by voltage. 4500W/240v = 18.75A youāre good. Water heaters alternate between elements, they donāt run at the same time so the max wattage will be 4500W
4500W/240V=18.75 amps. I'm guessing these can fire at the same time so maybe it would get up to 36 total amps but I would need to read install guide
3380W seems to be typical electrical pull from your last unit.
Watts = Volts x Amps
Your volts are 120 per line and 240 with two hot lines (red/black) so with 30 Amps you'll end up with 7200 total watts
I would never take electrical advice from a plumber. If you do need an electrician, I would seek out your own, never take referral business from someone that doesn't specialize in that trade. For all you know they have an agreement to refer unnecessary business to each other.
Both heaters are going to draw the same 4500 watts in operation. So you have no worries. The older ones 3380 watt rating only applies if you operate it on 208V from a 3phase circuit.
Ok, so here's what's going on, your plumber is worried that your breaker is not a double 30amp breaker, a double 30amp is capable of providing enough power for up to 5500w water heater. The breaker you have doesn't look like a double 30amp breaker to the untrained eye, but it is, he just doesn't know that it is. He just concerned, and doesn't want to do the wrong thing. What you can do is, have an electrician verify that your breaker is suitable for a new water heater, this is just because your plumber needs piece of mind. I've been an electrician for some time, I've been a water heater tech for 10 years and a plumber for 2 š . It's just miscommunication. That's all
I mean plumbers are terrible electricians so heās both wrong about needing the electrician to change the wire, but right that an electrician should do it. Every time Iāve seen a plumber wire up a unit itās done wrong. Not that it doesnāt work, they just find ways to screw up even the most simple hookup. Usually missing a bushing, wrong marettes, forget to ground it, etc.
People already explained to you the difference between 4500/3880. Idk if heās lying or just doesnāt understand how to read a nameplate. Granted, Iāve met electricians that donāt know how to read that properly.
Well you losing 30 gallons of hot water to start!
And though Iām not and expert, more than once Iāve done/helped remove and replace a water heater.
It was basically shut electrical and water off, drain the old one, remove, replace and reinstall waterline & electric.
Common sense tells me there shouldnāt be any ārewiringā should be a basic plug & play for a better term.
Iāve always been told replace like for like or go better if you can afford it, losing 30 gallons of hot water could mean a cold shower for the second/third person in the household?
Just my 2Ā¢, again Iām no expert but have done this more than once and there was no need to rewire any thing.
You can undersize wire and have issues but you canāt really oversize it. The water heater doesnāt care if itās connected to 10 awg or 4 awg, it will draw whatever it needs to. Connecting to bigger wiring doesnāt āpushā more current and blow anything. I can wire a light bulb to a 14 awg wire or to a 6 awg wire and it will work exactly the same on both.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The statement "The current wiring will blow the element" is not an accurate statement in any way and indicates the plumber has no idea what he is talking about as far as the electrical part of his job.
Plumbers electrician buddy needs a job
Agrees
Or plumber is scared shitless of electrickle.
It's pronounced Electric Tickle.... ššš Honestly 240 volt isn't that bad... Makes you piss your pants a little bit, but I keep a spare pair in the truck along with a comb so my hair will stop sticking up.
Plumberās step son is an electrician apprentice and he wants him out of the house.
I wired a brand new water heater for a customer. It failed in a week. Plumber told the customer that I wired it incorrectly and will need to replace it. I found that the lower element failed and shorted to ground. Plumber had to replace under warranty....never trust a plumber unless they are giving you the specifics on various types of shit and piss....
I'm a physical plant maintenance type, so I often explore the depths of the entire alphabet of hepatitis on top of being a commercial/industrial electrician. Fortunately, today was just the mind-numbing monotony of rewiring the fluorescent fixtures found in every government building built from the '20s through the Carter Administration for ballast bypass LED. I meet trade employees that are very knowledgeable about the basics of most trades. I also meet some that I am surprised still have a full complement of fingers and manage to survive showing up for work despite gaping holes in competence.
Hey, how do you wire for a ballast bypass LED? We have equipment Iāve been waiting for months for ballasts.
It's a simple series/parallel. You remove the ballast, the tombstones on one end of the fixture will be wired directly to line voltage, and the opposing end to neutral. You then mark them for future reference. The bulbs are marked with an L and N accordingly, it's a small switch mode supply LED driver inside so some (not all) are polarized. I have been happy with both Sylvania and GE Current in both fluorescent equivalent and bypass, and we've installed a scary number of cases of them. The daylight feel of the 5000k and 6000k color temperature ones is worth the price of admission alone, although 6000k is better with some form of diffuser to make it less harsh. We've been able to de-lamp and run every other row or single bulb in dual fixture in some facilities, saving tons of power.
Thank you
6k is getting close to blue
I use 4k. Once I found that bags of tombstones were easily available on amazon it was like plugging in a 9 volt battery cap and away we went.
Yeah, I used 4K. 6Ks are harsh.
I complained that most of the fluorescent tubes in one of our labs were out so the facilities guys replaced everything with 6500K LEDs. It was painful. The rest of the lab spaces are 4000 and the halls are 5000. I couldnāt even go into the 6500 lab until they replaced them with 5000.
You Can use the same fixtures just cut out the ballast. Wire the lights directly Lots of YouTubeās on it. I did my whole warehouse for 500$ in bulbs and an afternoon of time. So much brighter and less power.
Conventional wisdom has it that any idiot can be a plumb/elecr/roof/landscape/mason/millwright; and while we have a cohort of THOSE, the ones that hire a hypnotist to coach them through the licensing test, most are actually fairly smart capable journeypeople. Pro tip: find a woman contractor. They will be dedicated to working that job because uphill sexism; they are gonna prove those assholes wrong; theyāve worked under a microscope their whole career; and they appear to be, to the last woman, bright, strong, pretty together, real insurance, real bonded. Nice, many of them.
If given the opportunity I always hire female trades people, for all these reasons. You definitely aren't getting chuck in a truck.
That is such a dumb pro tip
Took us a month to convert the school I work for. Facilities Tech here. And same. We do everything from repairs to maintenance to full on builds.
I'm federal, but same idea. Division of labor amongst the crew we have is directly related to skill set and availability, but you have to know enough about everything to either repair it or know it's in the scope of tasks we contract because it is not feasible for the 15 people in my state to pull off with available tools and training.
Local but all labor issues are federal. Don't know why. But we are the same way. Budgets restrict our contract work so we do a lot more manual la or than we like. Think digging and repairing sewer pipes that are 6 ft down to major plumbing repair. One thing we don't touch is gas lines. Other than shut them.off.
I hired a plumber to do some replumbing in my basement. One of the things was to turn the main shutoff valve so I could actually get to it. While he was doing this he sees the ground wire and tells me early in his career if he had to disconnect or connect the ground wire he didn't because he didn't know what it was for. Apparently his brother is an electrician and told him he is a dumbass and needs to connect the ground wire back up.
World's chock-a-block full of rocket surgeons.
Same on this end. Element was actually leaking on brand new heater. Junk stuff coming out of factories.
Had the exact same thing happen, the plumber didn't open the valve and told us to turn on the heater, heater element failed because it was heating air and not the cool water only reason we didn't end up being the fall guy was having time stamped photos on the valve not open
Both of those water heaters have the same ratings, you are fine.
Yea, Iād be worried about this. Even assuming the wiring isnāt sufficient, the risk is starting a fire, not blowing the element, whatever that means. Itās like heās equating electricity to water pressure.
I suppose if it was a 120V element it could blow. But that's not a thing on 50 gallon water heaters.
They sound like they're about as good as me with electrical work. I wired up my replacement exhaust fan. The first switch controlled the lights. The second switch also controlled the lights and caused me great anguish.
No. Your wiring doesn't need upgrading providing it was correct for previous wh. 3380w is the wattage at 208v. 4500w is the wattage at 240v. (You have this)
10 gauge cu and a 30 amp breaker is exactly what your new heater needs.
Which is only 18 amps.
X1.25=?
EDIT: NVM I r dum
If you live in the US. Article 422.13 (Storage-type water heaters) Anything less than 120 gallons shall be sized not smaller than 125% of the rating of the water heater.
Thank you for the correction.
That's, why is he a plumber He shoud stick to it
Exactly. Both are 4500 watts at 240v. More reason to not take electrical advice from plumbers.
Yeah, you'd only have 208 in a dwelling if you're in an apartment with networked metering. Or you have 3 phase service to your house, which I've never seen, but I suppose it might happen somewhere.
My Cousin has 3 phase to his residential shop/house. But it's more shop than house. Cnc machines, lifts, cold saw, crane, plasma cutter, etc... he likes to build and tinker. He did have to pay a lot to get it installed though.
It's the wattage at 208V instead of 240V. If you have a normal split phase service, you'd use the 240V wattage. If you have a 3 phase service or are in multi-family building that has a 3 phase service and provides 208V single-phase to the units, then you'd use the 208V wattage. ETA: In either case, if the wiring was properly installed for the old unit it will still definitely work for this unit.
Oops, I said something similar in another comment because I didn't see that you'd covered it. This is the correctness.
Get up, cmon get down with correctness Get up, cmon Get down with correctness......
Uwwww wattta aa wattta wattta
I didn't understand where the above comment was going until I saw this...and this made me understand lol
Heās wrong. Whether heās being honest or not depends on if heās an idiot. They donāt put ID plates on plumbers like they do on water heaters, so I canāt tell you from where Iām sitting.
Underrated comment
Haven't laughed out loud at a comment on Reddit in awhile. Thank you sir or ma'am.
Not sure what the problem would be using the existing service to the original W/H. They are both rated at 4500W at 240V, so I guess I am a little confused about what the problem would be. Maybe there is some other detail that the electrician did not relate to you, but on the surface I don't see a problem. At 240V and 4500W, both the new heater and the old heater will draw 18.75A. The 30A breaker is fine.
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The original heater had a dual voltage rating, of either 208V or 240V. These supply voltages would each produce 3380W or 4500W accordingly. You were supplying the old heater with 240V, so it was heating at 4500W. The new heater has a single rating of 4500W at 240V, which is a perfectly fine replacement for the dual voltage heater. The is not in an industrial/commercial application, correct? This is a residential water heater?
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You are not going to be happy with only 50 gallons. It will runout of water
I have a family of 5. We use a 40g water heater and have never had an issue with the amount of hot water. We even had family from out of town and had both showers going at the same time for 3 or 4 people each back and didn't run out.
There it is. He needs to get *his electrician that you have to pay.
I'd ask for and actually look up his license status. This is very very basic stuff for any equipment installer, not just an electrician. If he's unable to read a very well laid out equipment label, for equipment he specializes in, he sure as shit wouldn't be touching anything of mine ever again, license or not.
No, your wiring is fine, it's exactly what I should be. Source: I just had to replace the entire service for a rheem 4500 at 240v water heater, it needs a 30amp 240 breaker, that's what you have
Donāt listen to him ! That just indicates if the supply voltage is 208 volts it would be 3380 watts and the other number indicates if your supply voltage is 240 volts itās 4500 watts. Itās just an either this or that number but the original installation wouldāve required # 10 awg copper conductors with a 30 amp breaker, this also satisfies the new tank.
Your plumber apparently doesn't know enough about electrical to do a proper water heater install, the 3380 number doesn't apply unless you have 3 phase power. Your new water heater is using the exact same 4500 watts as your old one. Are you sure he's actually a plumber and not a handyman?
I wonder what the electrician would come there and even do lol. Like would he just charge you to come look at it or would he make something up
My question is what happened to the old heater? If itās no longer heating water then it could be as simple as changing out the elements or putting new thermostat on it. Water heaters are pretty simple devices and the parts to replace are cheap.
Based on the manufacturing date of 2003, it's a 20 year old water heater. It's safe to say that it's either leaking or will be soon. My last house had a 15 year old water heater, I hoped I'd get another year out of it, but it sprung a big leak a few months after moving in, overflowed the drain pan and got everything on the garage floor wet. At least it was in the garage and wasn't inside the house in a utility closet -- I toured one house where they decided to put the water heater in a third floor closet, not sure why they did that, if it leaks it's going to be a big mess. And some poor plumber has to drag it down 3 flights of stairs.
A way to prevent this is to replace the sacrificial anode for the water heater every 3-5 years.Ā
Yeah, my water heater is about 15, I flushed it every year and have replaced the rod twice. My dads heater is something like 25 years old now and still going strong, I believe. Everything is too expensive now days to not do regular maintenance on them to keep them going long as possible.
Is this an actual licensed plumber? Iām kinda shocked if they know this little about electrical. Your old water heater could be wired for 240V or 208V (3 phase). 208V 3 phase is exceptionally rare in single family residential. Based on the breaker photo you added, youāre wired for 240V 30A which is the common standard and is sufficient for the new water heater. honestly, i would not hire an electrician, Iād find a different plumber.
!! Itās single phase or three phase there is no ā2 phaseā. You have a single phase voltage of 208 volts between 2 poles of a three phase system. Without getting into anymore needless detail for this situation what you currently have is sufficient for your new tank. Any 1st year electrician could confirm that.
Ty for catching that.
Plumber: wrong, You: good to go
Your plumber is getting extra business for his electrician friend/relative and BSing you in the process
Looks to be the same power draw to me. If the wire is big enough to handle 4500W it's fine for both machines. The wire is sized to mach the breaker and not the machines coils anyway, and sounds like this is probably on a 30 amp breaker with wire big enough to handle 30 amps. That calculation is exactly the same for both units.
In all situations where youāre going to spend a couple thousand or more, itās a good idea to get at least 2 quotes (3 is better). If all of them are telling you the same thing then theyāre correct. I had my water heater replaced about 3 months ago (gas) and I got quotes of $3800. $2600, and $1800. All quoted the same brand & similar time estimates. I normally go with the midrange price but the guy that gave the $1800 quote was the only thing to walk me through the entire process and seemed to be the most informed. I went with him & he had the old one out & the new one in in less than 4 hours with all new pipes, drain pan, etc. Iāve since seen his reviews several times on social media and all are glowing. The most expensive is one of the largest plumbing companies in the area with tv ads all the time. I guess they have to pay for all that advertising.
What the hell does he mean "the current wiring will blow the elements"? Your existing wiring is fine for the new water heater. The old one and new one both use 4500 watts at 240 volts
You are going from an 80 gallon to a 50 gallon? Your power is fine.
The 3380 is the wattage if you were supplying 208v. The 4500 is for 240v. Your plumber is an idiot.
The only way I can think of to "blow" an electrical element based on incoming power would be if you applied more voltage to the element than it was designed for. But what I def can't think of is how your wiring would be in a state that caused it to deliver more voltage...because it's basically impossible. The only worry would be that the new water heater drew more amps while running than the old one did. I didn't really look at the labels lol but if the amp draw and voltage match then the wattage will match. And if it's the same then you should be gtg as far as new one being compatible. Your wiring could be damaged or something and that would cause of a risk of fire in the building but I don't see how this guy would know that unless he was checking voltage during operation and found it dropping significantly. Still wouldn't cause an element to blow tho so that part is def sus
No way. Definitely knows nothing about electric water heaters
Agreed and he screwed the guy with a smaller water heater. Gonna cost him more to heat up multiple 50 gallons.
Reminds me of the time my stepfather explained that you can't jump a 12V motorcycle from a car, because the mechanic told him that "even though they're both 12V the car has too many amps and will burn up the starter motor on the bike".
Theyāre both 4500watts divided by 240V is 18.75amps. 18.75A is too much for an 20A breaker (load at 80%) so youāve got the next common size up at 30A which is fine. Electrically theyāre the same. Iād be more worried about going from 80 gallons to 50 gallons. Plumbers only know 3 things man. Paydays Friday, shit rolls downhill, and donāt chew your nails.Ā
The dual ratings are associated with the dual voltages on the old label: At 240V single phase both heaters are identically rated to consume 4.5kW (18.75A). Connected across 2 poles of 208V 3 phase with all else equal, it will only draw 3.3kW (16.25A) Power ratio is the square of the voltage ratio, being a resistive load. New heater merely lacks the 208V rating. If your service is 240V single phase, the heaters are essentially identical. If you have 208V service, full compliance and insurance coverage may require a rating (label) for that. If your wiring was up to code for the old heater, it is just fine for the new one (30A, 10ga. wiring is standard headroom for such an appliance). Only crony capitalism would suggest otherwise.
I'm an electrician. Your plumber is either terribly misinformed or is trying to rip you off. Since he hasn't suggested just replacing the elements and thermostats, I would say he's trying to rip you off. As many others have said, the breaker is correctly sized, and the wire probably is also. Should be #10.
Find another plumber
[Bradford White RE250T6-1NCWW 50 Gallon Upright Electric Water Heater - 208/230 Volt - 4500 Watts](https://www.totalhomesupply.com/p/bradford-white-re250t6-1ncww-50-gallon-upright-electric-water-heater-208-230-volt-4500-watts?gad_source=1)
As long as the wire is 10 gauge you are perfectly fine. It actually recommends you change the breaker to a 2 pole 25 amp breaker. Which is about $35 to $40 at Home Depot. The brand you have is a Square D QO 2 pole breaker. Your plumber either doesnāt understand electrical and wiring which might be the case or heās trying to scam you to make extra money.
(and for OP's benefit: yes the brand of breaker matters. You need a breaker that is listed for use in your specific panel and cross-brand listing isn't common)
You can buy 25 amp breakers at home depot where you live?????
yes. do you live in russia?
Canada lol. Just googled our home depot and they only have them for leviton panels which is band new here and never used. I do keep stock on them for QBH, BQL, NCO, BR, Q and QO but cannot get them from home depot. Edit: typically we just round up to 30amps and its completely fine.
Yes lolā¦ itās not as common as your even ending breakers but if they donāt have it you can order it.
I'm guessing his brother is an electrician.
Heās wrong. Tell him that with confidence. Turd herders thinking they know thingsā¦hilarious.
Thatās the wattage. Heating elements are a resistive load, they only draw what they need because of physics. Wattage is a relationship of amps and voltage. Now if for some stupid reason you have #12 wire instead of #10 that would definitely require an electrician.
Itās fine
Feels like this plumber is either incompetent or trying to get his electrician buddy some workā¦
The dual rating is for people like me who work in buildings that have 3-phase power (instead of your residential 2 hot legs that equal 240 volts, in commercial/industrial there are 3 that through some reasons I'll skip are 208 volts). The ratings reflect how many watts are used at the voltage you provide it, which would be the rating for 240. Your plumber needs to stay in his lane, or learn the first thing about electrical appliances that he will be attaching. It sounds like he's either: 1. Incompetent 2. Ignorant 3. Trying to lay-up a service call from his electrician buddy who is probably not a licensed electrician/some other scam 4. Looking for an excuse to bail on your job. Honestly, I might want a different plumber to check that the plumbing was done right. Appliance calls are not exactly rare for a residential plumber, and almost all electric water heaters except very small ones are rated for either. I wish you luck.
Not in the same realm, but #4 hits hard to me. I used to detail cars ($300+ packages) and if someone came in at me with "my car isn't that dirty" or "my buddy can do XYZ" then I just ghosted the person. Not worth the hassle or headache for missing a spec of dust from their clothes and having to re-do a 12+ hour job.
They are the same, as others have mentioned. There's no need to upgrade the circuit.
Fire him, watch a video in YouTube, and throw that thing in there yourself. Itās not very difficult.
Why not sell you the appropriate replacement?
4500 Watts at 240v,Ā 3380 Watts at 208v. Bradford White unit only lists 240v, Rheem shows both.Ā Unless he measured your voltage as being low, and his sparky buddy is installing a boost transformer, nothing will change.Ā Is your plumber a home Depot guy?Ā
Yeah the plumber's brother-in-law needs a job.
Iām an electrician and as long as there is #10 wire going to that 2 pole 30 you are definitely good with your existing wiring. That being said a plumber wanting an electrician to come wire up the hot water heater is not necessarily him trying to take advantage of you. He might not understand that the 4500 watts are for 240 or he might just not be comfortable wiring the unit himself. Thatās why heās a plumber and the other guy is an electrician. Just like I wouldnāt put the faucet in a bathroom after I wired up the lights and receptacle lol different licenses do different parts of the job
100% you need a new plumber; he just taught you that he canāt be trusted!
Ah...A classic game of "Idiot or Liar?" Id say liar .... gets a few $$ kicked back from his buddy for doing sweet FA.
They are the same rating at 240v. 3380 is at 208v
Itās fine. The gauge wire run to it will carry it fine. He either is trying to get money or is dumb.
The 3380 is the wattage at 208 V while the 4500 is the wattage at 240 V. Basically, it is the same thing.
He's full of shit. Both heaters draw the same.
If the plumber is so wrong about the electrical...are you sure the water heater needs replaced?
Plumber needs to stick with plumbing. Heās mentally retarded if he actually thinks this. Itās 10AWG at 240V with a 30A double pole. If you had a previous electric water heater (which obviously you did) then you already have everything you need.
NEVER downsize a water heater. Going from an 80gal to a 50 is just dumb. Outside of the fact that he seems incompetent on the very basic electrical requirements of products he should be an expert on, the downsizing alone would make me find another plumber.
I did that at my last house, I heard about it every single day from my wife. Went from a 50 to a 40 because it was just us two living there and there were out of 50ās at the store I was at. Worst decision Iāve made to this day.
Plumber is dumb and trying to pocket some cash. Find someone else for the dishonesty.
He is either completely ignorant or lying to charge you more
Power = Voltage x Current. 4,500 = 240 volts x 18.75 amps Voltage = Amps x Resistance 240 V = 18.75 amps x 12.8 ohms So the heating element in the water heater is 12.8 ohms... this is important because if you put this water heater on lower voltage, it will pull less current and less overall wattage. 208 vac = 16.25 amps x 12.8 ohms 16.25 A x 208 VAC = 3,380 watts. 10 AWG is good for 30A, so your plumber needs to call Roto Rooter because he's full of shit.
He's full of shit is the short answer. All household stuff runs on 110 or 220. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Read the manual of the new heater to understand
I had a plumber quote me $850 to replace an ignition coil($20 part) on my water heater. I already told him thatās what I needed and I only called him assuming he would have quick access to parts. He said he would have to order the part and it would be 3-4 days(3-4 days without hot water!). I said āgood day sirā and ordered my own parts next day air for $100 total and changed it my self in less than 2 minutes.
Tbh Plumber is being honest because he said he needs to hire or you do. He doesn't know but does know enough that he isn't sure it isn't going to cause problems and wants to call a professional in. Your fine but that's a good plumber who's taking the job seriously instead of it'll probably be fine. And there's 0 reason the plumber should know to be honest.
Your plumbtrician needs replaced. Most of the good plumbers can at least wire the things they install on a regular basis... If you can cut threads you can strip a wire and use a screwdriver to affix it to an element.
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hire a plumber whoās replaced water heaters before! The 3380W is the wattage if wired to a 208v circuit. The Rheem is rated at 4500W at 240V and 3380W at 208V. As shown on the nameplate as 240/208 and 4500/3380. The Bradford White is only rated for 4500W at 240V. If you do have a 208V feed then you would need a W/H with elements rated for 208V. If the question is the wiring to the W/H this can be distinguished by the outer jacket of the wiring if installed since manufacturers change in outer jacket coloring. Otherwise the wiring should be marked with the AWG sizing. Typically rating for Romex wiring White outer jacket - #14 awg - 15A breaker Yellow outer jacket - #12 awg - 20A breaker Orange outer jacket - #10 awg - 30A breaker
4500 / 240 = 18.75 Amps 30 x .8 = 24 max amps on a 30 amp breaker 30 amps requires 10 gauge wire 10 gauge wire has orange sheathing If your wire size checks out, the only issue would be that the wire may not be long enough which would require a junction box. Then, you may need different parts to connect it securely to the new water heater.
This response is mostly true, butā¦ Old water heater was 240V or 208V single phase, it says right on the label. Not ātwo phaseā (???) or three phase.
The same wiring and breaker can be used. As others have said, the old heater lists the 208V wattage as well as the 240V. Note that even though there are two elements, only one will be on at a time. This should have a 30A dual pole breaker ans 10ga wire, same as original.
He is a plumber not an electrician! I would worry that he doesnāt know how to wire a HWH. Assuming you actually do have a 208 V service, which is highly unlikely unless you live in a condo. What is his plan? Is it to have the utility company provide you with a 240 V service? Thatās not going to happen. Ask him if he is going to have the electrician add a buck-boost transformer to increase the voltage and what the cost will be. Most likely you have a 240 V service. A 240 V HWH will work perfectly fine on 208 V if that is what you have. It will take longer to heat and elements will probably last longer. Blowing a HWH element by reducing the voltage is not a thing.
find a new plumber who isn't CLUELESS.
Seems like your "plumber" is afraid of electricity.
Why is the new one so much smaller? You had an 80 gallon and he's trying to replace it with a 50 gallon.
The installation sheet for that model does call for a 25 amp breaker rather than 30 amp. Hum! So code requires that the breaker be at least 25 amp to be no less than 125% but doesnāt say it canāt be more.
Was the wiring installed in correctly the first time? What's the gauge of the wire?
Plumbers can't read guud. You're at 240v for both so 4500w is in line. Good to go
Can't see the wire but it needs to be at least #10awg to be on that 30 Amp breaker.
One thing you should get now is an anode for your hot water heater write the data you put in the hot water heater. Every 5 years replace the anode or have replaced. If you do this you hot water heater will last for almost for ever .that is why they give you a 5 year warranty the anode is the sacrificial element once it's gone the hot water heater starts rotting out
Just an FYI, depending on where you live there might be some really good rebates on heat pump based water heaters, often called hybrid electric water heaters. Unless your basement is very cold, they only use 400-800watts when heating the tank instead of 3-4k.
"I need to replace it immediately" How did your hot water heater fail? If it isn't leaking is it just not heating? You can replace componants like thermostates and heating elements without replacing the whole HW heater. Granted it is 21 years old but that doesn't automatically dictate the heater needs replacement.
Open you manual/literature to the installation page!!!!!It will most likely give you the recommended wire size and breaker size .....
Both heaters have of max of 4500 watts so I don't see a problem. If you are handy it is easy to replace the water heater yourself. Many have screw-on flex hoses. The wiring is no more difficult that a electrical outlet or switch. Lowes has a good video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AflWO5wMcoE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AflWO5wMcoE)
4500w Ć· 240 volts = 18.75amps 18.75 amps x 1.25 = ~23.4amps So your #10 wire, 30amp breaker is sufficient, and your plumber is wrong based on the information provided. If you think he is purposesfully being dishonest or trying to get more money out of you, tell him when he picks up his check for the work, he can drop off a copy of the passed inspection report from your local plumbing inspector. Edited for grammer .
that 30 amp breaker can handle up to 6000 watts continiously(7500W normal loads), the new 4500W water heater fits with a nice margin of safety
If you using 208 volts the wattage is 3380 but Iām pretty sure youāre using 240 volts so itās using 4500w So if you do the math 4500watts/240volts= 18.75amps and youāre able to use 80% of the breaker so 80% of a double 30amp is 24amps youāre fine heās trying to get more money from you.
Your plumber is an idiot and doesn't know how to math.
If the tank is in the same place as the old one then the plumber literally just need to attached the line to the designated spot on the tank. Takes all of 2 minutes.
They are the same. 3380w is the watts drwan at 208volts. So 3380 / 208 = 16.25 amps or 4000 / 240 = 16.66 amps most 240volts equipment will run at 208volts just fine. Your plumber should stick to pipes, shit and water.
Get a heat pump.
Lmao heās trying to rip you off. What a crock of shit.
Whatās the wire size?
Convert your watts to amps and you will know. https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Watt_to_Amp_Calculator.html
If your water heater tank hasn't blown out or "dropped the bottom" it just needs to be repaired not replaced.
Sounds like they are not a plumber but a con artist.
Tell him to then just put in another 4200 watt element
You can't wire an electric water heater till it's filled with water
80 gallons is a lot of hot water?
Thatās y he is the plumber!
What was the failure mode ? Is it leaking, or are you getting only a little hot water and then it gets cool/cold, or no hot water at all?
Just had a water heater replaced and needed to hire an electrician to get it working after, the plumbers were clueless. Iād request he install his part and choose your own electrician
If it's a quote just don't call him back. If he's working on it, tell him to finish and you will have your own guy take care of the wiring.Ā
Theyāre both the sameā¦ 4500w @ 240v Plumber needs to stay on his lane.
That breaker is rated for thirty amps who's about 13 less than the wh will draw. It should be ok.
At least he's telling you to contact someone who understands electricity while he doesn't... But he's wrong about the numbers not matching, that lower wattage is what you'd get if you installed this in a 208V system, but since your home is 240V, you will still get the full 4500 Watts of heating power it's rated for.
That is a power-rating for the heating-elements, it comes baked-into-the cake, in other words, you get the right heating-element part-number and hook it up to the correct voltage....not rocket-science.
You probably don't need a entire water heater, just replace the thermostat and elements. Usually can get them as a kit for $80. Somebody just wants some money
Seems like he is not being honest about the electrical stuff. I would also worry about the water heater being replaced considering the "electrical" recommendations. Might just need an element kit.
Heās being ignorant. Same circuit and wire is fine.
The plumber seems unqualified to make the electrical connection and is trying to make it sound complex to justify the electrician helping them.
Divide watts by volts to find amps The info on the label shows two different heater power ratings depending upon what model it is. From what I see you have a 30 amp breaker but you will have a 33+ amp load. Nope. Either get the model with less amp draw ( longer recovery time ) or upgrade your electrical panel.
Yea and next the electrician is going to tell you to call utility you need a three phase system šš
Breaker should be fine
washer hose hook ups, and 220 plugs. when one dies, wheel in another one in.
If you are in a residential home in the US. Yo u have single phase power coming in. The new water heater will work just fine. Spec for spec, they are the same.
If you look up an amperage calculator, 4500W Max is 19 or less amps. So as far as the breaker is concerned it's fine. Assuming everything was done to code your wiring will be fine. There's more to this than just that though. We'd have to see how each are wired (or look it up) to understand if the plumber meant they wiring is different (which I doubt)
Many just do it but legally if pulling permit need electrician. Eating is same. Wiring should be 10/3
No. You don't need to change anything. Just make sure the wire Guage is 10awg or larger.
Ask him if his brother an electricianā¦.
Iām very curious what prices youāve received. I recently had a 55gal installed, paid $1750. Ā My plumber came highly recommended from several people, but the price still seemed pretty high for what I was expecting.Ā
The only thing that could possibly be an issue is the 1st unit can be 240v or 208v while the 2nd unit can only be 240v. The difference between 240v and 208v is the 2nd leg is 120 degrees out instead of 180 degrees out so if your previous one was wired for 208v instead of 240v then yes it could be a problem. That is easily tested with a meter to rule it out though. The watts (the number with the w behind it) is the voltage times the amps and the reason the 1st unit shows two different watt values is that it is telling you the value of one using 240v / the value of the other using 208v.
These comments are funny. I've been a plumber for 20 years and I am the Plumbing Project Manager for a commercial company in Texas. The two different wattage numbers correspond to their respective voltages. Your old heater is capable of being connected to 240 volts or 208 volts. 240v/4500w and 208v/3350w. The lower the voltage, the lower the wattage on these elements. Lower wattage means less amp draw by the element. The only reason the wires would matter here is that the gauge of the wire determines the amp load it is rated for. More than likely, your wire sizing is fine, as well as the braker rating. That being said, I'm not your plumber, and I haven't seen everything in person. I also do not know what state you're in. Some states have extremely low quality licensing requirements for particular trades. Some are better. ZHEither way, if you are not comfortable with a plumbers assessment of your issue, ask for their supervisors phone number. Tell them you want an explanation of the work and not just an opinion. If you aren't believing or comfortable with what you're being told, there is almost always a good reason. I take phone calls from customers who want clarification of a plumber's recommendations often. I often drive out myself to double check work and or assessments my plumbers make for customers as well. So is it remotely possible that what he said is true but also very unlikely. Bottom line, if you don't trust him, get a second opinion.
Simple math...4500watts divide 240v equal 18.75 amps...your wiring is sized
That plumber should stick to plumbing. They are the same, the new one just doesn't list as verbose of a spec. The 4500W is the rating for 240V power supply (most single family homes), the 3380W is for places with 208V power (common in apartments with commercial power from the utility). Its like comparing the size of a garden hose filling a bucket, with more water pressure (voltage) you can flow slightly more water in the same time. But with a bit less, nothing bad happens except it takes a little longer to accomplish the same job.
The current drawn by the water heater is the same regardless of voltage. Watts = voltage * amps (current), so the 208 will yield a lower power (watts) than the 240. You should get a different plumber to look at it. This one skipped some of his training. If you got an electrician, they could probably install the water heater. The only plumbing part is the hot and cold switch over which are probably threaded connections. The instructions that come with the heater explains how to hook it up. Also, if the breaker is undersized, the heater would just trip the breaker. It wouldn't burn down the house. If a larger breaker is put in, but the wire size is not increased, that would be dangerous. The breaker protects the wire and the wire needs to be big enough to handle the rated current of the breaker.
I'm an electrician. If your 30A breaker and wired were sufficient for your old 4500w hot water heater then it's just fine for the new one. We're simply applying 208/220 to coils. The hot water heater is nothing more than a toaster
To calculate amperage you take the wattage and divide it by voltage. 4500W/240v = 18.75A youāre good. Water heaters alternate between elements, they donāt run at the same time so the max wattage will be 4500W
4500W/240V=18.75 amps. I'm guessing these can fire at the same time so maybe it would get up to 36 total amps but I would need to read install guide 3380W seems to be typical electrical pull from your last unit. Watts = Volts x Amps Your volts are 120 per line and 240 with two hot lines (red/black) so with 30 Amps you'll end up with 7200 total watts
I would never take electrical advice from a plumber. If you do need an electrician, I would seek out your own, never take referral business from someone that doesn't specialize in that trade. For all you know they have an agreement to refer unnecessary business to each other.
Watts = Volts \* Amps , so 240 volts times 30 amps means that breaker can hold up to 7200 watts, Max on both seem to 4500W.
Both heaters are going to draw the same 4500 watts in operation. So you have no worries. The older ones 3380 watt rating only applies if you operate it on 208V from a 3phase circuit.
Ok, so here's what's going on, your plumber is worried that your breaker is not a double 30amp breaker, a double 30amp is capable of providing enough power for up to 5500w water heater. The breaker you have doesn't look like a double 30amp breaker to the untrained eye, but it is, he just doesn't know that it is. He just concerned, and doesn't want to do the wrong thing. What you can do is, have an electrician verify that your breaker is suitable for a new water heater, this is just because your plumber needs piece of mind. I've been an electrician for some time, I've been a water heater tech for 10 years and a plumber for 2 š . It's just miscommunication. That's all
I mean plumbers are terrible electricians so heās both wrong about needing the electrician to change the wire, but right that an electrician should do it. Every time Iāve seen a plumber wire up a unit itās done wrong. Not that it doesnāt work, they just find ways to screw up even the most simple hookup. Usually missing a bushing, wrong marettes, forget to ground it, etc. People already explained to you the difference between 4500/3880. Idk if heās lying or just doesnāt understand how to read a nameplate. Granted, Iāve met electricians that donāt know how to read that properly.
Turn on the GD breaker and call it a day! Fuck
Well you losing 30 gallons of hot water to start! And though Iām not and expert, more than once Iāve done/helped remove and replace a water heater. It was basically shut electrical and water off, drain the old one, remove, replace and reinstall waterline & electric. Common sense tells me there shouldnāt be any ārewiringā should be a basic plug & play for a better term. Iāve always been told replace like for like or go better if you can afford it, losing 30 gallons of hot water could mean a cold shower for the second/third person in the household? Just my 2Ā¢, again Iām no expert but have done this more than once and there was no need to rewire any thing.
The Bradford black is bigger and last longer
they both max out at 4500 watts, a 30 amp breaker x 220volts should have a maximum load of 6600 watts, sounds like your plumber is full of hot water
You can undersize wire and have issues but you canāt really oversize it. The water heater doesnāt care if itās connected to 10 awg or 4 awg, it will draw whatever it needs to. Connecting to bigger wiring doesnāt āpushā more current and blow anything. I can wire a light bulb to a 14 awg wire or to a 6 awg wire and it will work exactly the same on both.
He is lying
There both 1 phase 240. Your good
Your water heater failed? The only reason to replace a water heater is if it leaks, if it doesn't heat anymore replace the elements.
He is wrong. You have a 30 amp. Breaker so aslong as you have 10gauge wire your good. Your old heater has the same requirements as the new one.