You are not invisible to the world literally around you.
I feel most people, men and women, are looking to get off social media for mental health. The advent of taking a break from it is becoming more common
There’s a lot of media, whether it be basic sitcoms or social media posts or whatever, about how guys who approach women when they don’t want to be approached are either rude or are creeps.
Good people don’t want to be rude, so they just don’t approach. They might be more comfortable reaching out when conversations have already been built, which is best done in things like hobby spaces. But lots of hobbies are dying or are just too expensive.
>There’s a lot of media, whether it be basic sitcoms or social media posts or whatever, about how guys who approach women when they don’t want to be approached are either rude or are creeps.
Yeah there really aren't any good examples in media of men approaching women. Then you have tons of women on social media saying how they don't want to be approached or they wouldn't mind but it has to be in this specific circumstances. It's very discouraging.
Ultimately the whole “would I like to be approached in a scenario” goes out the window depending on whether or not they’re interested in the guy. And since the whole reason you approach is to gauge interest, you’re kinda fucked
And this knowledge doesn't stay within female circles (as it didn't here). The result: decent dudes have no interest in girls like that, and so we don't even bother to approach.
Imma get too deep for my own knowledge here but I think women have a particular way of becoming passive aggressively cruel exactly *because* of the stereotype that they're supposed to be empathetic and emotionally intelligent, and because they can't usually physically win fights that overt cruelty might start.
It's almost like women have to bottle up their cruelty, and it festers in a repressed state.
Kind of the opposite of the idea of a big scary tough guy who is secretly a softy who doesn't want to hurt anyone.
I don't know if the stereotype of women having more empathy and emotional intelligence is true, but those things don't automatically make someone a better person. Like any skill, they can be used for good, but they can be used for evil.
Empathy is just the ability to understand people's emotions better. A good use of empathy is to better care for other people. But there's also an evil way to use it, to be more effective at emotional cruelty. Knowing the other person's feelings can make it easier for you to know what to say to hurt them the most.
Definitely the way my guy friend acts I personally think is… over aggressive. Maybe not creepy but just over confident and arrogant. Apparently though, he’s hot. So I’ve watched him get with some of the most beautiful women I’ve ever seen with this way of flirting. I just trust that one day someone will appreciate my absolute opposite personality lol.
When my girlfriend got approached by a guy at a bar, after telling him she was with me, she complimented him on being brave and encouraged him to keep talking to other girls.
She's such a wonderful person and I love her.
That's how women behave as a whole. Yeah, you occasionally run into a great woman who won't do that (marry her), but majority of the time be attractive, don't be unattractive rules apply
Unfortunately been my anecdotal experience as well. Women have very little good grace for men as a whole, unless you've got something to offer. In these scenarios that's being attractive.
It’s true. I wish women admitted the double standard instead of being black & white about it. It’s no big deal just tell the truth. It depends if they like the guy.
Mindless drones, honestly.
You should at least have the self-awareness to recognise that that's how it's done; that that's *how you like it to be done*. If someone you don't like tries it on, just send them on their way respectfully, and move on with your night.
Any other reaction is distasteful.
Now if someone's pushy, that's another matter entirely. But that's not what we're talking about here.
> Ultimately the whole “would I like to be approached in a scenario” goes out the window depending on whether or not they’re interested in the guy.
[Bald guys are hot](https://imgur.com/dfIuGnO)
Dating apps also don’t help with the whole instant gratification aspect.
Women get insane numbers of matches. So why would they settle for someone who isn’t a 9 or 10 on their eyes when they can simply swipe past them and keep getting tons if matches
I know a few guys who are genuinely some of the kindest, most supportive people I know. Any woman would be lucky to be with them. But they are average ish looking and aren’t “stereotypically” hot so they get constantly passed on.
Then the constant rejection lowers their self esteem and confidence which doesn’t help them continue to try and get a girlfriend, as lack of confidence and self esteem are generally major turn offs
I’m gonna betray my levels of hick here but when ever I see a guy calling a girl he’s flirting with names or just antagonizing her, my inner voice says “that ain’t how mama raised me.”
yeah a lot of people get off on being degraded or hurt, as long as its the "right" person doing it.
people literally have kinks of being taken advantage of by strangers etc, its wild
> Ultimately the whole “would I like to be approached in a scenario” goes out the window depending on whether or not they’re interested in the guy. And since the whole reason you approach is to gauge interest, you’re kinda fucked
[Lookin good Susan!](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1663485-hello-human-resources)
Yep, honestly girls need to do the approaching more. Guys are terrified to approach now because they don't want to seem creepy.
I'm a gay guy, so, I don't have much of a horse in this race, but I've spoken to *more* than enough straight guys in workplaces to understand that this is a big part of the problem.
And the ones who do approach are the not so good ones. So those are the ones women encounter the most/end up with.
Then women decide all men are fuckboys cos the ones who approach them end up being fuckboys.
And approaching people confidently takes practice. So on those occasions where a decent bloke does approach someone he fumbles about as he's a nervous wreck and is either dismissed at best or derided at worst.
It's viscous cycles within viscous cycles.
Your attractiveness matters a lot too when you try to talk to women out in public. If a guy that was perceived as good looking by a woman tried to chat her up in public she might be receptive. If she didn’t see the guy attractive then he’s a creep even if he took the same approach as the good looking guy.
I have a friend that is a good looking guy and he met his now wife by just adding random women on Facebook that lived in the area and chatting with them. If I was single and I did that I’d probably have the police at my door.
The death of 3rd places is really the reason dating is so hard now. We lack places to meet other people, and we close in on ourselves. I forget the study, but most men stop making friends after college. College is the last setting where they have "peers" and not coworkers. It's the last 3rd place you essentially afford.
It's much harder to approach a complete stranger in an unfamiliar space (god forbid a bar) and strike up a conversation unless you are very outgoing. Men perceive it too high of a risk and therefore only men who don't care if they are being intrusive will approach. Creating a vicious cycle.
The only way out of this is to make zero-barrier 3rd places. Where a woman kind of sort of knows you. Not these stupid apps that only want your money.
Yep, and also women are conditioned to wait for a main to approach them. So both sides end up doing nothing.
However, this gives the women a huge amount of power and most of them don't even realize it. If a woman is willing to ask a guy out, she's going to have the pick of the litter. She'll just have to endure a bit of rejection just like guys do.
I can't find the study, but I remember reading a long time ago that the divorce rates for couples where the women asks the man out are a quarter compared to couple where the man asks the woman out.
Basically you're 4 times more likely to divorce if you get asked out by a man than if you ask the man out. Maybe this is because the woman is far more invested immediately and for the long term compared to just agreeing to a date and seeing where it goes. I don't remember the full study except for the numbers.
Speaking anecdotally, my wife approached me in the halls at university and said "if I beat you at thumb wrestling, you have to marry me". We've been together for 24 years now.
I've been saying this for yeeeears. Guys who have game don't just approach 1-2 women a year. They're doing it every chance they get. Or, they have good game because they've just had so much repetition asking so many women out. If i have a daughter one day, that is NOT what i want her dating pool to consist of.
Hobbies becoming expensive is real!!!! Stuff that I would do for fun on a weekend just a couple of years ago is now a big financial decision, and I make double now what I was back then. Spent $20 yesterday just so my girl and I could bowl for 25 minutes.
Income all the dumb bad faith "Men are scared of being embarrassed. Women are scared of being killed" statements as a way to shut down any discussion on how the man feels and try to turn the conversation into women's issues instead.
Did it already happen.... am I late to mark?. Because it seems that always happens on here when men open up about how they feel.
Men are scared of being accused of harassment and losing their jobs, becoming homeless, and dying on the streets without shelters to aid us...
Get on the apps, I am not coming up to you in person unless I know you want to be approached
Same. I'm 57 and tired of the nonsense. I have no desire to tell my life story, to rehash old stories, to invest a year or longer, "proving myself," only to be set aside for a meth smoking pumpkin farmer from the county (nothing wrong with pumpkin farming, ps).
10 years behind you mate. I was having a lazy morning, reading in bed, I could hear my daughter playing with the dog, I thought, I've a good job, these two maniacs keeping me entertained and no-one is sulking because of something I'm supposed to have magically guessed.
Since the dawn of the apps, dating has become like job hunting and honestly the upsides aren't obviously worth the downsides.
Add to this with the +3:1 ratio in men:women on dating app women now feel like they don't have to put up with minor inconvenience. My good friend drove a sick co-worker to the hospital and pushed back hanging with the woman he had been seeing. When he left the hospital, he called her to meet up and then got stuck behind a multiple car crash that closed all the lanes for hours. He texted her when he realize he was stuck for awhile. She was annoyed and was moving the next day. My friend offered to help her before he went to work. She declined and told him she didn't feel like talking to him. He gave her a week and sent a message apologizing and asked her to Dune2 since they had planned to see it together. Two weeks later 👻👻
Every girl I'm remotely interested in seems to be in a relationship. EVERY SINGLE ONEEEEE. It's like general statistics don't have an effect on this lol
I’ve noticed that attractive girls who are looking for a relationship and are chill and pleasant to be around get snatched up real quick. Only times they are single are if they choose to be single or if they’re fresh out of a break up
It's not that hard to find a decent girl. It's near impossible to find a decent girl you share values/have things in common with. If I just wanted a partner in general there's more than a dozen women ready to do that with me. But that sounds worse than being single.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean. That’s why I hate the phrase “there are billions of women in the world.” Of those women, how many am I actually attracted to? Then how many of those that I’m attracted to have a personality that I am attracted to? Then of those girls, how many are actually attracted to me? And I personality? And then finally, how many of the girls that are remaining will I actually meet in my life? I’d estimate it’s about one out of every 100 people I meet.
Way less. We're looking at 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%. And then if you're not bi, halve it. Odds are you will never find someone you're truly compatible with. The sad truth is most people settle just to have someone they can rely on.
Same here. Women got what they wanted, which is men not approaching them. Now what? I don’t see anyone coming up with any solutions, so until that day comes, I’m done with all of it. I’m 25.
Same don’t even try no more so tired seems like everyone I am meeting are in a relationship or don’t want anything serious and honestly it seems like most people my age (genz) don’t have time almost everyone is working to death
Not actively playing the game would be my guess.
At first, you don't want to bother them (which means women will ironically be bothered by worse and worse guys that will ignore what they said anyway), and after a while, you become comfortable to be on your own.
But what is also probably going on is that those gems of a person don't give off a strong sense of being exciting (regardless of whether it's true or not), and the worst sin a man can do for a woman's interest is to be boring.
Hit home for me. I'm a very boring person. Not that I don't have my hobbies or interests - it's just that they're all stuff I can do by myself. I don't have any high energy interests like going to concerts or attending parties
Bingo. My recent ex was upset that I wasn't keeping her entertained 24/7, despite the fact that we're both boring people and knew that going in. Great friends, but with the relationship, it became an expectation
According to women I'm boring as hell but what they find boring about me is infinitely more entertaining than they are. We aren't monkeys that dance when were told to. We are human beings.
The problem with learning to love yourself is that you stop putting up with other people's bullshit. Many of the good/decent men you're referring to get the runaround. They are taken advantage of, and in the worst cases, they're abused, abandoned and neglected. They learn to recognize the signs quickly (but they'll still likely give people the benefit of the doubt).
But why are they treated that way?!... I honestly don't know. Based on my own observations, it seems that women think that good men are incapable of "taking charge," or leading. They seem to see men's kindness as weakness, and rather than positively communicate the ways in which they'd like to see their man step up, they nag, complain, cheat, or simply excuse themselves from continuing the relationship.
This is the answer. They claim nice guys don’t take the lead and when a nice/attractive guy eventually does decide to make a move they act like a b*tch to him because they think he’s being insincere. I literally know so many dudes like this jahahaha
I wonder how many women are out there waiting for “mr.perfect” and don’t even realize they shot him down already lol
Yesssss - being nice, caring and compassionate is somehow in the evolutionary algorithm become equated in women at least subconsciously into lack of leadership or taking charge, and often diluted with lack of 'masculinity' or being 'alpha' - which results in protest behaviours and even shittier behaviours like abuse and cheating
Boy ain't this the truth. I consider myself a good guy, I have some rough edges like anyone does but deep down am a good person. I am one of the ones who have been abused to the point I want nothing to do with women anymore. I would rather just be alone and happy.
I’m sorry that happened to you. I also was alone for a long time. I worked on myself and really enjoyed it. I built up big walls because I was hurt a lot, so even if I had the opportunity to date I wouldn’t even see it or even care to see it until years later. When I started to enjoy being alone it was really hard to comeback from because of all the perks it comes with. However, I did end up meeting someone and for the first 2 years the walls slowly came down but I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I kept thinking when is it going to go wrong, but it never did. A lot of trust was built and it’s the best relationship I have ever had. But from time to time I still think about the time I was alone because I really grew to enjoy it
Also sometimes unless you make an active effort, you tend to be attracted/go for the same type of person because this is what you're used to. So you can go from a toxic partner to another and not know how to deal with the situation when you finally meet someone decent.
Why are they treated that way is because of the same reason why kind women are treated horribly. Because assholes pursue nice people to have someone to abuse. In order for two nice people to start dating, they should both be very skillful in flirting and love bombing, like the assholes are, but usually they’re not, so they get hunted down by people who are, until they decide to stop dating.
Thank you! The point is literally right there, and everyone is missing it. There are shitty people in the world no matter if they're men or women. Nice/good people get used by the bad.
Yup, and the scary thing is that assholes are the only people who literally NEED a relationship to have an outlet of their abuse. Nice people don’t really need another person, because they can handle their emotions themselves and don’t need to have an outlet in the shape of a person. That’s why assholes are so good at dating, because they literally depend for energy on another person.
I think in general a lot of good people just stay away from the dating scene and the shitshow that it is. Most of my female friends who are good women and are single don't participate in dating much because it's just not worth it
It can also be expensive.
I’m early thirties and taking time out to save for a property and generally just work on myself a bit.
Singelhood isn’t a defect. The original post this one is clearly in response to was full of miser’s making it out like it’s a fate worse than death and that any single man must be s fucking abomination of a human.
Weird inverse of the critique of “spinsterdom” women have been historically subjected to.
Being alone doesn’t mean being lonely. God forbid anyone embrace their autonomy and focus in themselves. Certainly better than mindlessly jumping from relationship to relationship.
Men (and women for that matter) are not selected by potential partners primarily for decency. And if they are not attractive, they fade into the background and are not given much thought. When women say all they know are rotten men, that can be read more as, they are dissatisfied with the men they find attractive, because that’s who they tend to spend time thinking about. [Beyonce lyrics](https://genius.com/Beyonce-baby-boy-lyrics)
That doesn’t mean they are going to give up attractiveness for decency, as the men of average attractiveness tend to mistakenly believe. Instead they’ll just resolve that their man must have both. But if that doesn’t pan out, attractiveness still tends to come first, so there’s no real change. It’s always been that way and it isn’t going to be different.
Correct. The balance towards attractiveness being a significant factor in deciding to date and mate with someone has been documented and will continue to be a trend. It's just how both genders are wired. It takes real mental effort to not only admit that but to modify the weighing one gives attractiveness.
An attractive woman knows she always has a way out with lots of suitors ready to take your place.
It's too hard to sift through all that to find someone genuine.
And when you get north of 60, then the reverse-cougars start preying on those with solid retirements.
To piggy back this, it’s the same reason girls tell their guy friends, “you’re perfect why can’t I find someone like you?” What they mean to say is “you’re perfect why can’t I find someone like you that I’m attracted to.”
Oh god that hit way too close. A few years ago:
Very athletic lovely smart girl sitting across a restaurant table from me after a group workout: *"Why can't I find someone (ex-mil) strong and tall with a beard like the guys in your pictures?"*
Me (literally what she described): "Hello, I'm right here."
Her: *"Oh no, not you."*
Cue laughter.
This is basically the summary and answer for 90% of women here on reddit asking "why are all men like... (fill in some shitty behavior) ".
They practically always describe the top 20% hot guys and fck boys.
When the attractiveness of a guy is above a certain threshold it seems like he has unlimited access to women.
I see this constantly with some of my friends who are considered hot guys. Every party they go there are always some women hitting on them. Because of this they give shit about most of these women.
Many women when asked for what they are looking for will describe a completely different man than what they in reality will pick. In reality they will almost always choose attractiveness over decency.
Also don't forget women tend to be more binary when it comes to attractiveness. A guy is either attractive or not.
And also most women find most man unattractive.
A few years ago I got OBSESSED with fitness, lost a ton of weight and gained a ton of muscle.
Within 6 months I noticed a stark change in how women approached me. I got hit on a LOT.
I'm 5'7 too so that still affects me, but once I had the muscles I had GORGEOUS women hitting me up. It was absolutely CRAZY.
I got to see how easy the conventionally attractive men have it compared to average dudes.
I was always fat. Like the fat gregarious friendly outgoing party type. In my early 20s I lost a ton of weight and it was mind blowing how women’s interactions changed towards me. Nothing changed except my looks. Even if I acted like a complete asshole toward them, that made them want to hang out with me *more*.
But then I got fat again, which was fine.
One of the funny parts is that the hot, intelligent, wealthy and kind monogamous guys are out there, but those can do better.
And those get out of the dating market really fucking quickly, leaving only the hot fuckboys.
It’s because a lot of men don’t really go places where they have the opportunity to be around/talk to women. A lot of men’s lives are just going back and forth between work and home. Part of it is the loss of the societies “third spaces”, part of it is a bit of isolationism post COVID, with a lot of other factors mixed in
I had undiagnosed anxiety, but I'm working on myself. Also, society tells the decent ones not to approach unless they want to be lumped in with the indecent ones.
You're leaving out the other half of the relationship equation, the woman.
It's not like 100% of single women are just gems that everybody wants to spend the rest of their life with.
There's always going to be the issue of finding someone you're compatible with and actually enjoy being with. And that gets harder and harder every day the longer you're single.
The very best women are generally getting paired up fairly early in their life. So then you're left finding someone from a pool of slightly less desirable women. And that pool gets smaller and smaller every day as you age.
I very much agree with this. I (M 56) am widowed and now dating again. Not only is it different now than when I was in college but the quality of the women is shockingly low.
I have dated some really good women but we just weren’t compatible. Most of the women available at this age are divorced. They have had bad marriages with bad men and they are partly responsible for it. A shockingly high number have learned nothing from their mistakes.
It seems almost all of the good women are already paired up, probably with good men and good marriages. They will likely not be available until their husbands die.
It is very depressing to be dating at this age. By about age 25 you better be looking to get married as quickly as you can because if you wait too long all the good ones will no longer be available.
Extremely depressing. And learned nothing. My last gf I asked about this, as she had been through 3 marriages and was open to getting married again. I asked, "What are you looking for? What didn't work last time you want to go better this time? What qualities are important to you?"
Her reply: "I never really thought about it. I guess someone who thinks I'm important and gets along well with my kids." Turns out the list was way longer than that, with dealbreakers. smh
And that answer was a problem. If you had 3 failed marriages and never really thought about what didn’t work and what you would do differently then you’re headed for a fourth failed relationship.
> but the quality of the women is shockingly low
A female friend of mine (we're both in our 60s and single) once said, "I can see why you're single. Every single one of my woman friends in our age group is insane."
Very true. Also, the decent women who are single at 30+ have likely been through a divorce or a few relations with shitty men. So they become extremely picky, looking for that perfect man, and will only date up.
The dating pool 30+ seems to be flooded with un-datable people.
It's as simple as "those who would listen to you seriously are not willing to commit the 'sin' of wanting you romantically." The guys who friend zone themselves are generally romantically interested, but they just can't be open about it because "men who think with their penis are all assholes."
Ergo, men who don't care to listen to you calls are the ones who get to escalate, and those who do heed to your desires (group enforced desires) feel great shame at even speaking to you. Fucked up world which is self perpetuating. Those who least care about your opinions are going to give themselves the most chances to find love where as those who are concerned about your well being are least likely to approach due to the shame of being thought of like "those assholes."
I agree. I think many many younger men who have held off on early marriage have either decided A. (the short answer)-- they can't afford to be married, or...B. (long answer)---they've seen the train wrecks that their peers have endured in getting married early...the bad or incompatible relationships, (both with or without the added burden of divorcing with kids in the fallout) and shudder. The ones who do have good jobs, incomes, and are secure in that they "have their shit together" are realizing it's not worth the gamble.They (wisely, I think) imagine the scenarios and changes in ppl and how life can throw curveballs at them unexpectedly...and none of them are good.
It's easier to stay single and be alone..aim for casual or fuck-buddy sex, rather than risk getting hitched and possibly being screwed over several yrs down the line, (or being unhappy in the union themselves and doing the "pulling away" (cheating or whatever) ---and to be fair, I'm fully aware and both men AND women will lie and cheat---and still having to sort through possibly acrimonious and tedious legalities of a divorce, maybe be forced by a judge to give HALF or more of everything he has, (or a good chunk of everything that he'll ever earn from then on if there are kids to support)..it's just a huge chance they're taking. And more of them are reading the room and realizing it. They've seen it, they're afraid of it.
Decent guys will patiently build trust and intimacy overtime and build a relationship.
Other guys will plow through a women's boundaries while her boyfriend isn't there and ruin any potential relationship which oftentimes makes us all a little more cynical and jaded.
Some got used and abused and became bitter.
Some just simply enjoy being single.
Some are overlooked and ignored by women.
Some were in relationships and simply didn't worked out.
TLDR: life happens
They hate the game and prefer to take care of themselfes.
I friend of mine is the perfect example for this and he's living his best life and i'm fine with that.
I don’t think they’re lying on purpose, I think they really believe what they are saying ie “I want a good guy who respects me” etc etc. However, when faced with a good looking guy, all of that posturing goes out the window and they fall hard for him. He turns out to be an asshole and uses her and she gets more jaded, claims she wants a nice guy but then never takes steps to find that nice guy ie never gives normal looking guys a chance and the cycle repeats.
I think they are being honest, but they then only consider this within the subset of people they are actually attracted to. It's an unspoken prerequisite
> If you're single, but the other parts of your life are going more or less in the right direction, smart guys know to avoid adding complications to your life then rationalizing why they did.
That's where I'm at. too fuckin risky to introduce dating into my life. not about to ruin my peace for less than a fraction of a chance that i MIGHT find a life partner. Even if do find some one to marry there is a very high chance that she'll cheat anyway. It's all a fuckin waste of time.
"Good" men don't push women and will wait out the Sun's lifespan for a clear shot.
It took me being high as balls to ask a girl out at a Quicktrip just for her to nicely giggle to me that she's gay and pointed to her rainbow car interior.
We laughed, she enjoyed the interaction, and I was happy for the attempt.
Good men aren't waiting for woman to make the first move, most are legit just siked out from most relationship hype, fear of rejection, and being labeled a creep.
My brother is early 30’s and a decent catch. Gainfully employed, car, apartment, little debt - just some student loans.
Beyond that, he’s a great conversationalist, has a great sense of humor. Empathetic. People just “like” him - a gift I never had. Growing up, he would make friends with anyone. I was more selective and - frankly - not as kind until I matured a bit and put aside my own insecurities.
All in, he’s a great guy.
He hasn’t had a serious girlfriend in a decade. He dates. He just can’t find a partner he can “take seriously”.
On the flip side, my wife has many friends - women - who are starting to freeze their eggs. Saying they want to get married, and have kids, but can’t find the right guy.
I tried one time to set my brother up with one of them. He messaged them. They never responded. He never tried to reach back out.
Look…no one “deserves” anyone. Love is earned through time and trust. And people are allowed to have preferences.
But, people are too judgmental and fail to see the best in others and give people a chance. People are cynical. And they’re all waiting for the “perfect” fit.
News flash. No one is perfect. If you want to find someone. Put yourself out there, be polite, respect people’s boundaries and take a risk on someone who might not “tick every box”.
People are deeper and more interesting than their social media profiles.
I don't know if it's that women don't actually want a good guy or that they don't think they deserve one.
The two exes that I actually wanted to marry both left me because they "didn't think they deserved to be treated well".
I have no idea what that means. I thought everyone thought they deserved to be treated well.
Edit: Why are all you guys so cynical and ready to think the worst about every woman?
Some people can (wrongly) want a relationship that has tension. They crave the "spark" or "excitement" and aren't content with relationships with someone like you who is stable/ secure.
Yeah. I had this happen with my last gf. I don't know what that even means. Was she trying to be nice and break-up by walking away backwards? She would constantly tell me, "You are such a good listener; you respect my kids; you compliment my food and my clothes, and you respect what I say... you are too good for me."
I would simply say, "I treat you the way I want to treat my bestfriend and someone I love. Why would I be ugly and mean to someone I care about?"
>I have no idea what that means. I thought everyone thought they deserved to be treated well.
Saying that is pretty much the same as saying, "It's not you, it's me. "
They simply didn't want to be with you, but they didn't want to come out and say that.
Just happened to me. Dated this girl for 2 months and suddenly she texted me what they it was over, I wasn't worth enough to confronted in person, just by a simple text message. She didn't feel any spark or chemistry between us. I did everything right (I think), she called me a gentleman, thanked me for all the attention and the way I treated her and just like that it was over, I said good bye to her and I thought it was the end of the story, another failed relationship.
But after 3 months of no contact (she wasn't event in my saved phone numbers). She texted me again asking how I was doin and that it would be cool if we could reconnect and see us again.
I just left her on read, know your value kings.
My son is a nice kid, but he's given up on finding a nice woman. Many women he meets are just not worth knowing so he doesn't try any more. He needs to change his social circle. There are plenty of good men and women out there who don't seem to be connecting.
You don't have to be good or decent to date or be in a relationship. You just have to be able to get with someone. You can be charming, exciting, hot, whatever. Nice or kind is on the low side of sexually attractive features, and unless you don't care for sex, you need that sexual attraction. Being a good person can help create and maintain a healthy relationship, but there are way better qualities for getting into one.
The asshole who travels the world and can recount his experiences skydiving in Italy or whatever gives off fun and exciting. It causes some intense emotions. The nice guy who keeps to themselves? Less so.
The greatest formula for success is to be incredibly sociable, exciting to be around, and be kind and decent. You'll have the qualities to get into and maintain healthy relationships. Or, if you know what kind of people you attract, surround yourself with those people.
Because we're sick of putting up with toxic narcissistic freeloading women who have dollar signs in their eyes, running around spending our money and putting out to other men, while we men are trying to make ourselves and our families better by putting in an honest day's work.
Many men have given up finding a partner. Women want confident, comfortable, charming men to approach them and don’t understand that repeated rejection creates the opposite of that. With enough rejection, many men give up. Online, according to Match and Bumble, women swipe left on 80% of men on those sites. So, dating is toxic right now. I do hope it changes.
Women: Men, you need to step up and shoot your shot! You need to just approach us and ask us out.
Men: OK, want to go out?
Women: AAARGGGH NO OMG OMG OMG NOT WITH *YOU*! I didn't mean YOU! You're UGLY! You're DISGUSTING! What on EARTH made you think I'd want to go out with YOU?
Being a good person only matters if you’re good looking. A nice ugly person is still undesired in the lens of most women. It doesn’t have to be “right” or “fair” but that’s just reality. Without looks your other traits/qualities are quite meaningless. She can’t get off to your nice words.
The things women respond to in men aren’t always what they say they are or what they should be. Your post is another way of asking the age old question of “why do good guys finish last”. It’s a long discussion.
Im just an average looking introvert, with a stable job, decent pay, a couple of friends, apathy to politics, and hobbies that don't appeal to most women (in my experience).
Women don't seem to interested in this combination of traits in my age range.
women do not date down. men do, and always have. more women than ever before have obtained high paying careers. men increasingly are less educated and less successful. men with successful careers, half a brain, and social skills run through a lot of women and have no reason to settle. might also be that lower status men dont have the confidence to deal with higher status women.
Women: Men, you need to talk to us about your fee fees! You need to be emotionally available! We aren't going to do all the emotional labor!
Men: OK, well, sometimes I feel...
Women: AAAARRRGH YOU PUSSY! YOU WIMP! Get away from me!
Being with someone is a 30-40 year commitment. Finding someone worth spending that much time with is not a task that should be taken lightly. I'd rather be alone than stuck with someone who is terrible
Who you are to your friends vs who you are to your lover are so unrelated, it’s insane. I know so many people, men and women, who are awesome standup individuals in friendships, but in relationships, are far more complicated. There have been moments when I’ve seen great guys full on exhibit That Guy behavior in a relationship and ditto for women.
Similarly, guys are often looking for an opening to have sex. THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD! But it certainly is tiresome when your brain is wired this way. Women will often complain that they can’t open up to guys without fearing it will be an invitation to sex. This is not an anomaly relegated to a small set of assholes - this is very normal dude behavior that I’ve witnessed very normal guys engage in.
This “nice guys finish last” trope is partly true but mostly bullshit.
I remember being out with friends for a bday and a female friend of my friend was out with us. A guy approached her and they got talking. She said she already had a bf and so he left. She then proceeded to lose her shit for the next 10 minutes, going on about how annoying it is when guys approach her and they should just fuck off. Funnily enough she doesn't actually have a bf, and this dude was a good looking chap aswell. Blokes don't stand much chance if the girl thinks she is superior to 98% of men before they can even say hello.
You're question is, "Why do so many women say they only know rotten men when there are so many really great men?"
Because those women are obviously wrong. I mean, what kind of answer are you looking for? Why even ask this question in r/AskMen? The fuck are we supposed to say here?
I dont think there's any one right answer to this, but for me once i saw how quickly and how easily i could be discarded after giving myself to someone for ***years*** i just stopped trying
It's not a game i really want to play anymore
This is just my experience. I think I'm a fairly decent guy with a job and I own my home and what I've noticed over the years it that women(not all) claim to want a decent/good man, then want to change the man into something THEY want and not what they said they want the man to be.
Younger women love the bad boys. They pick them most of the time even though they know they will get hurt.
I used to be one of those guys. I eventually settled down and have been married for a long time but remember how easy it was. They loved the confidence, the ability to talk easily, the listening skills, knowing what to do and say to get them into bed ASAP. It wasn’t a plan to dump them but the next woman in line just made it so easy.
When the women finally decide that they have had enough of the bad boys those men that they avoided for years see them like a bag of bruised apples believing that leopards don’t change their spots. They have a jaded perspective of women and have focused on personal improvement, developing a friend network among other men and enriching their careers. Nobody who is content with their life wants to be used and abused.
Because modern women are not picking decent men. You already answered the question when you said "I have quite a few female friends too who says all they know are mans who just want to f\*ck and mostly rotten". They love the bad boys and players. While the men who treat them with respect are seen as boring and lame.
> I have quite a few female friends too who says **all they know are male who just want to f*ck and mostly rotten.**
That's pretty self-explanatory: those are the types of men women chase after 😅 This is also the explanation for the "are we dating the same guy?" phenomenon - women mostly flock to the top 10% of guys
Those "decent" men in the bottom 90% you describe are invisible for the most part (as far as sexual attractiveness goes) that's why they're disproportionately single/don't have a mate
2 + 2 = 4
Economy is fucked, many are mildly depressed, broke, politics isn’t hopeful, with a bleak looking future, it’s just not encouraging. I don’t think that’s helpful for dating.
I try to make the best of what’s available. The only thing I can muster is to just keep pushing along right now. And accept the little joys.
It’d be nice to live a life surrounded by more positive things and people.
As a divorced guy (early 40s) that was married 15 years, I don't think I know the game anymore. I also don't currently have the bandwidth to put myself through that again. I'm good with just doing the best job of dadding that I can right now.
*Most* women have many men who are in their DMs or they have a guy friend.... and If I try to DM them either she won't reply or reply like they are not interested.
In my experience, you are right that we unconsciously some times are attracted to men who are good looking and also they know the game - they will shower you with attention, chase you, lovebomb you and all of that works because we have insecurities around those things. Some people don’t even know what healthy love looks like and it’s very difficult to choose that when you haven’t seen it.
You will keep on giving fuckboys a chance because they feed in to some of the insecurities but once you learn about these patterns, you won’t give them any attention and that’s also a fact. You won’t get into their theatrics and you won’t even entertain them.
I was a professional musician for years,. I was the lead singer in a very popular band, and I never had a shortage of attention from attractive women, despite being overweight and bald. Fast forward to the last six or so years...I've left the music business behind and haven't had a date since.
I used to be cool but Im just ugly 🤷🏽♂️
I don't get matches on dating apps....
I don't get DMs or replies from women I'm attracted to.
Last gf was 15 yrs ago
I don't make alot of money which is the biggest thing, no matter how many times i hear money isnt a factor from women....it always is.
Therefore im just ugly and single.
Too many men and women on social media and not enough spaces to actually meet in person.
Social media is a bad influence for sure. If you're not visible online you're invisible in today's society.
You are not invisible to the world literally around you. I feel most people, men and women, are looking to get off social media for mental health. The advent of taking a break from it is becoming more common
Hopefully this is the case. Still, it's not as easy to meet new people now as it once was.
It's definitely not easy to meet people. And I mean this for normal everyday people. Maybe I should start smoking again ugh
What's the first thing a woman does before the first date? Google the shit out of you.
There’s a lot of media, whether it be basic sitcoms or social media posts or whatever, about how guys who approach women when they don’t want to be approached are either rude or are creeps. Good people don’t want to be rude, so they just don’t approach. They might be more comfortable reaching out when conversations have already been built, which is best done in things like hobby spaces. But lots of hobbies are dying or are just too expensive.
>There’s a lot of media, whether it be basic sitcoms or social media posts or whatever, about how guys who approach women when they don’t want to be approached are either rude or are creeps. Yeah there really aren't any good examples in media of men approaching women. Then you have tons of women on social media saying how they don't want to be approached or they wouldn't mind but it has to be in this specific circumstances. It's very discouraging.
Ultimately the whole “would I like to be approached in a scenario” goes out the window depending on whether or not they’re interested in the guy. And since the whole reason you approach is to gauge interest, you’re kinda fucked
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I was a bouncer for a few years after the Army and watched this exact behavior all night every night
I’ve seen this at work. Women calling colleagues who don’t even look at them creepy and then flirting with the handsome guys who are the real creeps.
FACT: The difference between flirting and sexual harassment...If you like the person, it's flirting. If you don't like them, it's sexual harassment.
As a woman I have seen other woman do this! I don’t like it because I think it ruins the game. If you don’t like the guy politely decline.
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And this knowledge doesn't stay within female circles (as it didn't here). The result: decent dudes have no interest in girls like that, and so we don't even bother to approach.
Boom
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Imma get too deep for my own knowledge here but I think women have a particular way of becoming passive aggressively cruel exactly *because* of the stereotype that they're supposed to be empathetic and emotionally intelligent, and because they can't usually physically win fights that overt cruelty might start. It's almost like women have to bottle up their cruelty, and it festers in a repressed state. Kind of the opposite of the idea of a big scary tough guy who is secretly a softy who doesn't want to hurt anyone.
I don't know if the stereotype of women having more empathy and emotional intelligence is true, but those things don't automatically make someone a better person. Like any skill, they can be used for good, but they can be used for evil. Empathy is just the ability to understand people's emotions better. A good use of empathy is to better care for other people. But there's also an evil way to use it, to be more effective at emotional cruelty. Knowing the other person's feelings can make it easier for you to know what to say to hurt them the most.
because those are stereotypes that pander to women so they buy stuff in the commercials. reality is maybe 20-30% of women are hot garbage, same as men
If you're under a 7/10 in attractiveness as a man, you're not viewed as a person.
Definitely the way my guy friend acts I personally think is… over aggressive. Maybe not creepy but just over confident and arrogant. Apparently though, he’s hot. So I’ve watched him get with some of the most beautiful women I’ve ever seen with this way of flirting. I just trust that one day someone will appreciate my absolute opposite personality lol.
they will, if you get hotter
Heard, thanks
This is why men don’t approach anymore
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When my girlfriend got approached by a guy at a bar, after telling him she was with me, she complimented him on being brave and encouraged him to keep talking to other girls. She's such a wonderful person and I love her.
1 in a million women right there!
I still had to play *"the game"* to get her in the first place though.
You for the Win! if she's treating you at least as well as she treats strangers, it must have been worth it all.
It is :)
This does not speak well of your friends. Not interested, say so. Nothing wrong with that. But belittle as.you mention? Not good
As a man I've seen this play out in various interactions with friends. Being hot is a cheat code. I speak from experience.
That's how women behave as a whole. Yeah, you occasionally run into a great woman who won't do that (marry her), but majority of the time be attractive, don't be unattractive rules apply
Unfortunately been my anecdotal experience as well. Women have very little good grace for men as a whole, unless you've got something to offer. In these scenarios that's being attractive.
It’s true. I wish women admitted the double standard instead of being black & white about it. It’s no big deal just tell the truth. It depends if they like the guy.
Mindless drones, honestly. You should at least have the self-awareness to recognise that that's how it's done; that that's *how you like it to be done*. If someone you don't like tries it on, just send them on their way respectfully, and move on with your night. Any other reaction is distasteful. Now if someone's pushy, that's another matter entirely. But that's not what we're talking about here.
1. Be attractive 2. Don't be unattractive
> Ultimately the whole “would I like to be approached in a scenario” goes out the window depending on whether or not they’re interested in the guy. [Bald guys are hot](https://imgur.com/dfIuGnO)
Dating apps also don’t help with the whole instant gratification aspect. Women get insane numbers of matches. So why would they settle for someone who isn’t a 9 or 10 on their eyes when they can simply swipe past them and keep getting tons if matches I know a few guys who are genuinely some of the kindest, most supportive people I know. Any woman would be lucky to be with them. But they are average ish looking and aren’t “stereotypically” hot so they get constantly passed on. Then the constant rejection lowers their self esteem and confidence which doesn’t help them continue to try and get a girlfriend, as lack of confidence and self esteem are generally major turn offs
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I’m gonna betray my levels of hick here but when ever I see a guy calling a girl he’s flirting with names or just antagonizing her, my inner voice says “that ain’t how mama raised me.”
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yeah a lot of people get off on being degraded or hurt, as long as its the "right" person doing it. people literally have kinks of being taken advantage of by strangers etc, its wild
> Ultimately the whole “would I like to be approached in a scenario” goes out the window depending on whether or not they’re interested in the guy. And since the whole reason you approach is to gauge interest, you’re kinda fucked [Lookin good Susan!](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1663485-hello-human-resources)
And women won't approach men, so here we are.
Yep, honestly girls need to do the approaching more. Guys are terrified to approach now because they don't want to seem creepy. I'm a gay guy, so, I don't have much of a horse in this race, but I've spoken to *more* than enough straight guys in workplaces to understand that this is a big part of the problem.
They won’t. It goes against all environmental conditioning from birth onwards.
And here we are then. Lonely women and lonely men.
Only the attractive survive.
And the ones who do approach are the not so good ones. So those are the ones women encounter the most/end up with. Then women decide all men are fuckboys cos the ones who approach them end up being fuckboys. And approaching people confidently takes practice. So on those occasions where a decent bloke does approach someone he fumbles about as he's a nervous wreck and is either dismissed at best or derided at worst. It's viscous cycles within viscous cycles.
>It's viscous cycles within viscous cycles. LOL
You've never heard of molasses bikers?
>And approaching people confidently takes practice. And being rejected damages confidence in a compounding way.
Your attractiveness matters a lot too when you try to talk to women out in public. If a guy that was perceived as good looking by a woman tried to chat her up in public she might be receptive. If she didn’t see the guy attractive then he’s a creep even if he took the same approach as the good looking guy. I have a friend that is a good looking guy and he met his now wife by just adding random women on Facebook that lived in the area and chatting with them. If I was single and I did that I’d probably have the police at my door.
The death of 3rd places is really the reason dating is so hard now. We lack places to meet other people, and we close in on ourselves. I forget the study, but most men stop making friends after college. College is the last setting where they have "peers" and not coworkers. It's the last 3rd place you essentially afford. It's much harder to approach a complete stranger in an unfamiliar space (god forbid a bar) and strike up a conversation unless you are very outgoing. Men perceive it too high of a risk and therefore only men who don't care if they are being intrusive will approach. Creating a vicious cycle. The only way out of this is to make zero-barrier 3rd places. Where a woman kind of sort of knows you. Not these stupid apps that only want your money.
Yep, and also women are conditioned to wait for a main to approach them. So both sides end up doing nothing. However, this gives the women a huge amount of power and most of them don't even realize it. If a woman is willing to ask a guy out, she's going to have the pick of the litter. She'll just have to endure a bit of rejection just like guys do.
I can't find the study, but I remember reading a long time ago that the divorce rates for couples where the women asks the man out are a quarter compared to couple where the man asks the woman out. Basically you're 4 times more likely to divorce if you get asked out by a man than if you ask the man out. Maybe this is because the woman is far more invested immediately and for the long term compared to just agreeing to a date and seeing where it goes. I don't remember the full study except for the numbers. Speaking anecdotally, my wife approached me in the halls at university and said "if I beat you at thumb wrestling, you have to marry me". We've been together for 24 years now.
I've been saying this for yeeeears. Guys who have game don't just approach 1-2 women a year. They're doing it every chance they get. Or, they have good game because they've just had so much repetition asking so many women out. If i have a daughter one day, that is NOT what i want her dating pool to consist of.
Hobbies becoming expensive is real!!!! Stuff that I would do for fun on a weekend just a couple of years ago is now a big financial decision, and I make double now what I was back then. Spent $20 yesterday just so my girl and I could bowl for 25 minutes.
Income all the dumb bad faith "Men are scared of being embarrassed. Women are scared of being killed" statements as a way to shut down any discussion on how the man feels and try to turn the conversation into women's issues instead. Did it already happen.... am I late to mark?. Because it seems that always happens on here when men open up about how they feel.
Men are scared of being accused of harassment and losing their jobs, becoming homeless, and dying on the streets without shelters to aid us... Get on the apps, I am not coming up to you in person unless I know you want to be approached
I've given up. I'm too tired for all this shit.
About to be right there with you brother. Hard to find a decent girl. They’re either taken, or they aren’t interested in anything long term right now.
Same. I'm 57 and tired of the nonsense. I have no desire to tell my life story, to rehash old stories, to invest a year or longer, "proving myself," only to be set aside for a meth smoking pumpkin farmer from the county (nothing wrong with pumpkin farming, ps).
10 years behind you mate. I was having a lazy morning, reading in bed, I could hear my daughter playing with the dog, I thought, I've a good job, these two maniacs keeping me entertained and no-one is sulking because of something I'm supposed to have magically guessed. Since the dawn of the apps, dating has become like job hunting and honestly the upsides aren't obviously worth the downsides.
Yep. There is contentedness in the maniacs and chaos we can control 🤓
Add to this with the +3:1 ratio in men:women on dating app women now feel like they don't have to put up with minor inconvenience. My good friend drove a sick co-worker to the hospital and pushed back hanging with the woman he had been seeing. When he left the hospital, he called her to meet up and then got stuck behind a multiple car crash that closed all the lanes for hours. He texted her when he realize he was stuck for awhile. She was annoyed and was moving the next day. My friend offered to help her before he went to work. She declined and told him she didn't feel like talking to him. He gave her a week and sent a message apologizing and asked her to Dune2 since they had planned to see it together. Two weeks later 👻👻
Every girl I'm remotely interested in seems to be in a relationship. EVERY SINGLE ONEEEEE. It's like general statistics don't have an effect on this lol
I’ve noticed that attractive girls who are looking for a relationship and are chill and pleasant to be around get snatched up real quick. Only times they are single are if they choose to be single or if they’re fresh out of a break up
It's not that hard to find a decent girl. It's near impossible to find a decent girl you share values/have things in common with. If I just wanted a partner in general there's more than a dozen women ready to do that with me. But that sounds worse than being single.
Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean. That’s why I hate the phrase “there are billions of women in the world.” Of those women, how many am I actually attracted to? Then how many of those that I’m attracted to have a personality that I am attracted to? Then of those girls, how many are actually attracted to me? And I personality? And then finally, how many of the girls that are remaining will I actually meet in my life? I’d estimate it’s about one out of every 100 people I meet.
Way less. We're looking at 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%. And then if you're not bi, halve it. Odds are you will never find someone you're truly compatible with. The sad truth is most people settle just to have someone they can rely on.
Same here. Women got what they wanted, which is men not approaching them. Now what? I don’t see anyone coming up with any solutions, so until that day comes, I’m done with all of it. I’m 25.
Same don’t even try no more so tired seems like everyone I am meeting are in a relationship or don’t want anything serious and honestly it seems like most people my age (genz) don’t have time almost everyone is working to death
Same, it’s the same shit different person at this point
Not actively playing the game would be my guess. At first, you don't want to bother them (which means women will ironically be bothered by worse and worse guys that will ignore what they said anyway), and after a while, you become comfortable to be on your own. But what is also probably going on is that those gems of a person don't give off a strong sense of being exciting (regardless of whether it's true or not), and the worst sin a man can do for a woman's interest is to be boring.
Hit home for me. I'm a very boring person. Not that I don't have my hobbies or interests - it's just that they're all stuff I can do by myself. I don't have any high energy interests like going to concerts or attending parties
Bingo. My recent ex was upset that I wasn't keeping her entertained 24/7, despite the fact that we're both boring people and knew that going in. Great friends, but with the relationship, it became an expectation
According to women I'm boring as hell but what they find boring about me is infinitely more entertaining than they are. We aren't monkeys that dance when were told to. We are human beings.
The problem with learning to love yourself is that you stop putting up with other people's bullshit. Many of the good/decent men you're referring to get the runaround. They are taken advantage of, and in the worst cases, they're abused, abandoned and neglected. They learn to recognize the signs quickly (but they'll still likely give people the benefit of the doubt). But why are they treated that way?!... I honestly don't know. Based on my own observations, it seems that women think that good men are incapable of "taking charge," or leading. They seem to see men's kindness as weakness, and rather than positively communicate the ways in which they'd like to see their man step up, they nag, complain, cheat, or simply excuse themselves from continuing the relationship.
This is the answer. They claim nice guys don’t take the lead and when a nice/attractive guy eventually does decide to make a move they act like a b*tch to him because they think he’s being insincere. I literally know so many dudes like this jahahaha I wonder how many women are out there waiting for “mr.perfect” and don’t even realize they shot him down already lol
Yep. You nailed it.
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ARRGH! FLASHBACKS! My God that's infruriating when you want to be able to communicate openly and you're chastised for not being clairvoyant.
Lmao just had this conversation 2 days ago.
> Because women want a man who 'just gets it.' For any women out there. What the FUCK does this even mean? What the hell are we supposed to "get"?
Yesssss - being nice, caring and compassionate is somehow in the evolutionary algorithm become equated in women at least subconsciously into lack of leadership or taking charge, and often diluted with lack of 'masculinity' or being 'alpha' - which results in protest behaviours and even shittier behaviours like abuse and cheating
Boy ain't this the truth. I consider myself a good guy, I have some rough edges like anyone does but deep down am a good person. I am one of the ones who have been abused to the point I want nothing to do with women anymore. I would rather just be alone and happy.
I’m sorry that happened to you. I also was alone for a long time. I worked on myself and really enjoyed it. I built up big walls because I was hurt a lot, so even if I had the opportunity to date I wouldn’t even see it or even care to see it until years later. When I started to enjoy being alone it was really hard to comeback from because of all the perks it comes with. However, I did end up meeting someone and for the first 2 years the walls slowly came down but I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I kept thinking when is it going to go wrong, but it never did. A lot of trust was built and it’s the best relationship I have ever had. But from time to time I still think about the time I was alone because I really grew to enjoy it
Gospel
Preach mutha fucka
Also sometimes unless you make an active effort, you tend to be attracted/go for the same type of person because this is what you're used to. So you can go from a toxic partner to another and not know how to deal with the situation when you finally meet someone decent.
Why are they treated that way is because of the same reason why kind women are treated horribly. Because assholes pursue nice people to have someone to abuse. In order for two nice people to start dating, they should both be very skillful in flirting and love bombing, like the assholes are, but usually they’re not, so they get hunted down by people who are, until they decide to stop dating.
Thank you! The point is literally right there, and everyone is missing it. There are shitty people in the world no matter if they're men or women. Nice/good people get used by the bad.
Yup, and the scary thing is that assholes are the only people who literally NEED a relationship to have an outlet of their abuse. Nice people don’t really need another person, because they can handle their emotions themselves and don’t need to have an outlet in the shape of a person. That’s why assholes are so good at dating, because they literally depend for energy on another person.
AMEN
Nothing but the truth here
I think in general a lot of good people just stay away from the dating scene and the shitshow that it is. Most of my female friends who are good women and are single don't participate in dating much because it's just not worth it
It can also be expensive. I’m early thirties and taking time out to save for a property and generally just work on myself a bit. Singelhood isn’t a defect. The original post this one is clearly in response to was full of miser’s making it out like it’s a fate worse than death and that any single man must be s fucking abomination of a human. Weird inverse of the critique of “spinsterdom” women have been historically subjected to. Being alone doesn’t mean being lonely. God forbid anyone embrace their autonomy and focus in themselves. Certainly better than mindlessly jumping from relationship to relationship.
Men (and women for that matter) are not selected by potential partners primarily for decency. And if they are not attractive, they fade into the background and are not given much thought. When women say all they know are rotten men, that can be read more as, they are dissatisfied with the men they find attractive, because that’s who they tend to spend time thinking about. [Beyonce lyrics](https://genius.com/Beyonce-baby-boy-lyrics) That doesn’t mean they are going to give up attractiveness for decency, as the men of average attractiveness tend to mistakenly believe. Instead they’ll just resolve that their man must have both. But if that doesn’t pan out, attractiveness still tends to come first, so there’s no real change. It’s always been that way and it isn’t going to be different.
Correct. The balance towards attractiveness being a significant factor in deciding to date and mate with someone has been documented and will continue to be a trend. It's just how both genders are wired. It takes real mental effort to not only admit that but to modify the weighing one gives attractiveness.
An attractive woman knows she always has a way out with lots of suitors ready to take your place. It's too hard to sift through all that to find someone genuine. And when you get north of 60, then the reverse-cougars start preying on those with solid retirements.
I’m Gen X, and the reverse-cougars are already coming for me. But I can outrun them, as most of them don’t have anything to tempt me with
To piggy back this, it’s the same reason girls tell their guy friends, “you’re perfect why can’t I find someone like you?” What they mean to say is “you’re perfect why can’t I find someone like you that I’m attracted to.”
Oh god that hit way too close. A few years ago: Very athletic lovely smart girl sitting across a restaurant table from me after a group workout: *"Why can't I find someone (ex-mil) strong and tall with a beard like the guys in your pictures?"* Me (literally what she described): "Hello, I'm right here." Her: *"Oh no, not you."* Cue laughter.
Story as old as time brother
This is basically the summary and answer for 90% of women here on reddit asking "why are all men like... (fill in some shitty behavior) ". They practically always describe the top 20% hot guys and fck boys. When the attractiveness of a guy is above a certain threshold it seems like he has unlimited access to women. I see this constantly with some of my friends who are considered hot guys. Every party they go there are always some women hitting on them. Because of this they give shit about most of these women. Many women when asked for what they are looking for will describe a completely different man than what they in reality will pick. In reality they will almost always choose attractiveness over decency. Also don't forget women tend to be more binary when it comes to attractiveness. A guy is either attractive or not. And also most women find most man unattractive.
A few years ago I got OBSESSED with fitness, lost a ton of weight and gained a ton of muscle. Within 6 months I noticed a stark change in how women approached me. I got hit on a LOT. I'm 5'7 too so that still affects me, but once I had the muscles I had GORGEOUS women hitting me up. It was absolutely CRAZY. I got to see how easy the conventionally attractive men have it compared to average dudes.
I was always fat. Like the fat gregarious friendly outgoing party type. In my early 20s I lost a ton of weight and it was mind blowing how women’s interactions changed towards me. Nothing changed except my looks. Even if I acted like a complete asshole toward them, that made them want to hang out with me *more*. But then I got fat again, which was fine.
One of the funny parts is that the hot, intelligent, wealthy and kind monogamous guys are out there, but those can do better. And those get out of the dating market really fucking quickly, leaving only the hot fuckboys.
This is mostly the truth. And why I became an oil lobbyist. This world must burn.
It’s because a lot of men don’t really go places where they have the opportunity to be around/talk to women. A lot of men’s lives are just going back and forth between work and home. Part of it is the loss of the societies “third spaces”, part of it is a bit of isolationism post COVID, with a lot of other factors mixed in
And with most people nowadays having headphones on and their face buried in their phones makes those interactions even less likely….
I had undiagnosed anxiety, but I'm working on myself. Also, society tells the decent ones not to approach unless they want to be lumped in with the indecent ones.
That makes sense really
You're leaving out the other half of the relationship equation, the woman. It's not like 100% of single women are just gems that everybody wants to spend the rest of their life with. There's always going to be the issue of finding someone you're compatible with and actually enjoy being with. And that gets harder and harder every day the longer you're single. The very best women are generally getting paired up fairly early in their life. So then you're left finding someone from a pool of slightly less desirable women. And that pool gets smaller and smaller every day as you age.
the longer you are single and the more you work on yourself\* because you'll just put up with less bs
I very much agree with this. I (M 56) am widowed and now dating again. Not only is it different now than when I was in college but the quality of the women is shockingly low. I have dated some really good women but we just weren’t compatible. Most of the women available at this age are divorced. They have had bad marriages with bad men and they are partly responsible for it. A shockingly high number have learned nothing from their mistakes. It seems almost all of the good women are already paired up, probably with good men and good marriages. They will likely not be available until their husbands die. It is very depressing to be dating at this age. By about age 25 you better be looking to get married as quickly as you can because if you wait too long all the good ones will no longer be available.
Extremely depressing. And learned nothing. My last gf I asked about this, as she had been through 3 marriages and was open to getting married again. I asked, "What are you looking for? What didn't work last time you want to go better this time? What qualities are important to you?" Her reply: "I never really thought about it. I guess someone who thinks I'm important and gets along well with my kids." Turns out the list was way longer than that, with dealbreakers. smh
And that answer was a problem. If you had 3 failed marriages and never really thought about what didn’t work and what you would do differently then you’re headed for a fourth failed relationship.
> but the quality of the women is shockingly low A female friend of mine (we're both in our 60s and single) once said, "I can see why you're single. Every single one of my woman friends in our age group is insane."
Very true. Also, the decent women who are single at 30+ have likely been through a divorce or a few relations with shitty men. So they become extremely picky, looking for that perfect man, and will only date up. The dating pool 30+ seems to be flooded with un-datable people.
God forbid anyone put any accountability on women
*Clutches pearls*
That's really hard out there :(
It's as simple as "those who would listen to you seriously are not willing to commit the 'sin' of wanting you romantically." The guys who friend zone themselves are generally romantically interested, but they just can't be open about it because "men who think with their penis are all assholes." Ergo, men who don't care to listen to you calls are the ones who get to escalate, and those who do heed to your desires (group enforced desires) feel great shame at even speaking to you. Fucked up world which is self perpetuating. Those who least care about your opinions are going to give themselves the most chances to find love where as those who are concerned about your well being are least likely to approach due to the shame of being thought of like "those assholes."
Very true.
I think it’s a sign of the society and culture that doesn’t prioritize relationships like it always has
I agree. I think many many younger men who have held off on early marriage have either decided A. (the short answer)-- they can't afford to be married, or...B. (long answer)---they've seen the train wrecks that their peers have endured in getting married early...the bad or incompatible relationships, (both with or without the added burden of divorcing with kids in the fallout) and shudder. The ones who do have good jobs, incomes, and are secure in that they "have their shit together" are realizing it's not worth the gamble.They (wisely, I think) imagine the scenarios and changes in ppl and how life can throw curveballs at them unexpectedly...and none of them are good. It's easier to stay single and be alone..aim for casual or fuck-buddy sex, rather than risk getting hitched and possibly being screwed over several yrs down the line, (or being unhappy in the union themselves and doing the "pulling away" (cheating or whatever) ---and to be fair, I'm fully aware and both men AND women will lie and cheat---and still having to sort through possibly acrimonious and tedious legalities of a divorce, maybe be forced by a judge to give HALF or more of everything he has, (or a good chunk of everything that he'll ever earn from then on if there are kids to support)..it's just a huge chance they're taking. And more of them are reading the room and realizing it. They've seen it, they're afraid of it.
Decent guys will patiently build trust and intimacy overtime and build a relationship. Other guys will plow through a women's boundaries while her boyfriend isn't there and ruin any potential relationship which oftentimes makes us all a little more cynical and jaded.
Some got used and abused and became bitter. Some just simply enjoy being single. Some are overlooked and ignored by women. Some were in relationships and simply didn't worked out. TLDR: life happens
Because I'd rather settle for myself than settle for someone I'm not happy with.
Because I have grown too comfortable in my solitude, the safest place I know
They hate the game and prefer to take care of themselfes. I friend of mine is the perfect example for this and he's living his best life and i'm fine with that.
Those bitches are **lying**.
Why did it take so long to get to this answer?
The honest truth lol There’s always an angle
For real lmao
I don’t think they’re lying on purpose, I think they really believe what they are saying ie “I want a good guy who respects me” etc etc. However, when faced with a good looking guy, all of that posturing goes out the window and they fall hard for him. He turns out to be an asshole and uses her and she gets more jaded, claims she wants a nice guy but then never takes steps to find that nice guy ie never gives normal looking guys a chance and the cycle repeats.
I think they are being honest, but they then only consider this within the subset of people they are actually attracted to. It's an unspoken prerequisite
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> If you're single, but the other parts of your life are going more or less in the right direction, smart guys know to avoid adding complications to your life then rationalizing why they did. That's where I'm at. too fuckin risky to introduce dating into my life. not about to ruin my peace for less than a fraction of a chance that i MIGHT find a life partner. Even if do find some one to marry there is a very high chance that she'll cheat anyway. It's all a fuckin waste of time.
"Good" men don't push women and will wait out the Sun's lifespan for a clear shot. It took me being high as balls to ask a girl out at a Quicktrip just for her to nicely giggle to me that she's gay and pointed to her rainbow car interior. We laughed, she enjoyed the interaction, and I was happy for the attempt. Good men aren't waiting for woman to make the first move, most are legit just siked out from most relationship hype, fear of rejection, and being labeled a creep.
Decent men are mainly just invisible.
My brother is early 30’s and a decent catch. Gainfully employed, car, apartment, little debt - just some student loans. Beyond that, he’s a great conversationalist, has a great sense of humor. Empathetic. People just “like” him - a gift I never had. Growing up, he would make friends with anyone. I was more selective and - frankly - not as kind until I matured a bit and put aside my own insecurities. All in, he’s a great guy. He hasn’t had a serious girlfriend in a decade. He dates. He just can’t find a partner he can “take seriously”. On the flip side, my wife has many friends - women - who are starting to freeze their eggs. Saying they want to get married, and have kids, but can’t find the right guy. I tried one time to set my brother up with one of them. He messaged them. They never responded. He never tried to reach back out. Look…no one “deserves” anyone. Love is earned through time and trust. And people are allowed to have preferences. But, people are too judgmental and fail to see the best in others and give people a chance. People are cynical. And they’re all waiting for the “perfect” fit. News flash. No one is perfect. If you want to find someone. Put yourself out there, be polite, respect people’s boundaries and take a risk on someone who might not “tick every box”. People are deeper and more interesting than their social media profiles.
I don't know if it's that women don't actually want a good guy or that they don't think they deserve one. The two exes that I actually wanted to marry both left me because they "didn't think they deserved to be treated well". I have no idea what that means. I thought everyone thought they deserved to be treated well. Edit: Why are all you guys so cynical and ready to think the worst about every woman?
Some people can (wrongly) want a relationship that has tension. They crave the "spark" or "excitement" and aren't content with relationships with someone like you who is stable/ secure.
Yeah. I had this happen with my last gf. I don't know what that even means. Was she trying to be nice and break-up by walking away backwards? She would constantly tell me, "You are such a good listener; you respect my kids; you compliment my food and my clothes, and you respect what I say... you are too good for me." I would simply say, "I treat you the way I want to treat my bestfriend and someone I love. Why would I be ugly and mean to someone I care about?"
>I have no idea what that means. I thought everyone thought they deserved to be treated well. Saying that is pretty much the same as saying, "It's not you, it's me. " They simply didn't want to be with you, but they didn't want to come out and say that.
That's f:ed up.. I was left by women who couldn't really explain what was wrong with the relationship. Found someone better though so I'm happy.
Probably narcissistic of me to say but I don't want to "chase" or "woo" anyone, I want to build a life with someone.
I don’t think it’s narcissistic at all. If a woman doesn’t reciprocate interest, I see no reason why I should put forth a ton of effort.
Because they don’t give women butterflies. They’re stable, kind, and loving instead.
I'm single because I choose to be. There's nothing more miserable than sharing a home with a woman you hate, and who hates you even more.
Just happened to me. Dated this girl for 2 months and suddenly she texted me what they it was over, I wasn't worth enough to confronted in person, just by a simple text message. She didn't feel any spark or chemistry between us. I did everything right (I think), she called me a gentleman, thanked me for all the attention and the way I treated her and just like that it was over, I said good bye to her and I thought it was the end of the story, another failed relationship. But after 3 months of no contact (she wasn't event in my saved phone numbers). She texted me again asking how I was doin and that it would be cool if we could reconnect and see us again. I just left her on read, know your value kings.
My son is a nice kid, but he's given up on finding a nice woman. Many women he meets are just not worth knowing so he doesn't try any more. He needs to change his social circle. There are plenty of good men and women out there who don't seem to be connecting.
You don't have to be good or decent to date or be in a relationship. You just have to be able to get with someone. You can be charming, exciting, hot, whatever. Nice or kind is on the low side of sexually attractive features, and unless you don't care for sex, you need that sexual attraction. Being a good person can help create and maintain a healthy relationship, but there are way better qualities for getting into one. The asshole who travels the world and can recount his experiences skydiving in Italy or whatever gives off fun and exciting. It causes some intense emotions. The nice guy who keeps to themselves? Less so. The greatest formula for success is to be incredibly sociable, exciting to be around, and be kind and decent. You'll have the qualities to get into and maintain healthy relationships. Or, if you know what kind of people you attract, surround yourself with those people.
> be incredibly sociable, exciting to be around Easier said than done in the modern age where you're competing with her phone for her attention
Because most men are invisible to most women
Because we're sick of putting up with toxic narcissistic freeloading women who have dollar signs in their eyes, running around spending our money and putting out to other men, while we men are trying to make ourselves and our families better by putting in an honest day's work.
Many men have given up finding a partner. Women want confident, comfortable, charming men to approach them and don’t understand that repeated rejection creates the opposite of that. With enough rejection, many men give up. Online, according to Match and Bumble, women swipe left on 80% of men on those sites. So, dating is toxic right now. I do hope it changes.
Women: Men, you need to step up and shoot your shot! You need to just approach us and ask us out. Men: OK, want to go out? Women: AAARGGGH NO OMG OMG OMG NOT WITH *YOU*! I didn't mean YOU! You're UGLY! You're DISGUSTING! What on EARTH made you think I'd want to go out with YOU?
Woah now, easy with the firehose of truth there....
Being a good person only matters if you’re good looking. A nice ugly person is still undesired in the lens of most women. It doesn’t have to be “right” or “fair” but that’s just reality. Without looks your other traits/qualities are quite meaningless. She can’t get off to your nice words.
Because women don't even look at them.
The things women respond to in men aren’t always what they say they are or what they should be. Your post is another way of asking the age old question of “why do good guys finish last”. It’s a long discussion.
Bitches be trippin
Im just an average looking introvert, with a stable job, decent pay, a couple of friends, apathy to politics, and hobbies that don't appeal to most women (in my experience). Women don't seem to interested in this combination of traits in my age range.
Decency isn’t always the reigning factor when it comes to desirability, so people will compromise on lacking morals if other qualities are satisfied.
maybe these guys can't find a nice person who deserves them?
women do not date down. men do, and always have. more women than ever before have obtained high paying careers. men increasingly are less educated and less successful. men with successful careers, half a brain, and social skills run through a lot of women and have no reason to settle. might also be that lower status men dont have the confidence to deal with higher status women.
Women: Men, you need to talk to us about your fee fees! You need to be emotionally available! We aren't going to do all the emotional labor! Men: OK, well, sometimes I feel... Women: AAAARRRGH YOU PUSSY! YOU WIMP! Get away from me!
Being with someone is a 30-40 year commitment. Finding someone worth spending that much time with is not a task that should be taken lightly. I'd rather be alone than stuck with someone who is terrible
Who you are to your friends vs who you are to your lover are so unrelated, it’s insane. I know so many people, men and women, who are awesome standup individuals in friendships, but in relationships, are far more complicated. There have been moments when I’ve seen great guys full on exhibit That Guy behavior in a relationship and ditto for women. Similarly, guys are often looking for an opening to have sex. THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD! But it certainly is tiresome when your brain is wired this way. Women will often complain that they can’t open up to guys without fearing it will be an invitation to sex. This is not an anomaly relegated to a small set of assholes - this is very normal dude behavior that I’ve witnessed very normal guys engage in. This “nice guys finish last” trope is partly true but mostly bullshit.
I remember being out with friends for a bday and a female friend of my friend was out with us. A guy approached her and they got talking. She said she already had a bf and so he left. She then proceeded to lose her shit for the next 10 minutes, going on about how annoying it is when guys approach her and they should just fuck off. Funnily enough she doesn't actually have a bf, and this dude was a good looking chap aswell. Blokes don't stand much chance if the girl thinks she is superior to 98% of men before they can even say hello.
You're question is, "Why do so many women say they only know rotten men when there are so many really great men?" Because those women are obviously wrong. I mean, what kind of answer are you looking for? Why even ask this question in r/AskMen? The fuck are we supposed to say here?
I dont think there's any one right answer to this, but for me once i saw how quickly and how easily i could be discarded after giving myself to someone for ***years*** i just stopped trying It's not a game i really want to play anymore
This is just my experience. I think I'm a fairly decent guy with a job and I own my home and what I've noticed over the years it that women(not all) claim to want a decent/good man, then want to change the man into something THEY want and not what they said they want the man to be.
Women: DO NOT APPROACH US DO NOT TALK TO US, EVER Men: OK Women: WAAH why no men talk to us? Why no men want to date us? Where are all the good men?
Because people are shit, society is shit, economy is shit, dating is shit, marriage is shit. Basically, everything has gone to shit.
Because we are quiet, ugly and not rich enough.
Younger women love the bad boys. They pick them most of the time even though they know they will get hurt. I used to be one of those guys. I eventually settled down and have been married for a long time but remember how easy it was. They loved the confidence, the ability to talk easily, the listening skills, knowing what to do and say to get them into bed ASAP. It wasn’t a plan to dump them but the next woman in line just made it so easy. When the women finally decide that they have had enough of the bad boys those men that they avoided for years see them like a bag of bruised apples believing that leopards don’t change their spots. They have a jaded perspective of women and have focused on personal improvement, developing a friend network among other men and enriching their careers. Nobody who is content with their life wants to be used and abused.
Because modern women are not picking decent men. You already answered the question when you said "I have quite a few female friends too who says all they know are mans who just want to f\*ck and mostly rotten". They love the bad boys and players. While the men who treat them with respect are seen as boring and lame.
> I have quite a few female friends too who says **all they know are male who just want to f*ck and mostly rotten.** That's pretty self-explanatory: those are the types of men women chase after 😅 This is also the explanation for the "are we dating the same guy?" phenomenon - women mostly flock to the top 10% of guys Those "decent" men in the bottom 90% you describe are invisible for the most part (as far as sexual attractiveness goes) that's why they're disproportionately single/don't have a mate 2 + 2 = 4
Economy is fucked, many are mildly depressed, broke, politics isn’t hopeful, with a bleak looking future, it’s just not encouraging. I don’t think that’s helpful for dating. I try to make the best of what’s available. The only thing I can muster is to just keep pushing along right now. And accept the little joys. It’d be nice to live a life surrounded by more positive things and people.
As a divorced guy (early 40s) that was married 15 years, I don't think I know the game anymore. I also don't currently have the bandwidth to put myself through that again. I'm good with just doing the best job of dadding that I can right now.
*Most* women have many men who are in their DMs or they have a guy friend.... and If I try to DM them either she won't reply or reply like they are not interested.
"Most women have many options but most men don't have any option"
decent men are not exciting men
In my experience, you are right that we unconsciously some times are attracted to men who are good looking and also they know the game - they will shower you with attention, chase you, lovebomb you and all of that works because we have insecurities around those things. Some people don’t even know what healthy love looks like and it’s very difficult to choose that when you haven’t seen it. You will keep on giving fuckboys a chance because they feed in to some of the insecurities but once you learn about these patterns, you won’t give them any attention and that’s also a fact. You won’t get into their theatrics and you won’t even entertain them.
I was a professional musician for years,. I was the lead singer in a very popular band, and I never had a shortage of attention from attractive women, despite being overweight and bald. Fast forward to the last six or so years...I've left the music business behind and haven't had a date since.
I used to be cool but Im just ugly 🤷🏽♂️ I don't get matches on dating apps.... I don't get DMs or replies from women I'm attracted to. Last gf was 15 yrs ago I don't make alot of money which is the biggest thing, no matter how many times i hear money isnt a factor from women....it always is. Therefore im just ugly and single.
To be honest, my experience is most women want a guy who is like over 6’7” and makes 100-200k per year. Which is less than 1% of the population
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