The most simple advice I have ever read or consumed is this. The most healthy relationships are the ones where partners respond positively to each other’s bid for connection. Every time a partner asks or expresses something to you. It is a bid for connection. Essentially successful partners are each other’s cheerleaders. This is also a mindful process as you can just be ‘yes men’ to everything. Every person is entitled to their own boundaries. But also consciously saying yes to as many hours f each other’s bid for connection is positive to the relationship. In the end relationships are work and your wife may need to be reminded that work means consciously making decision to make you happy. Perhaps try to explain this dynamic to your wife? And in the end take this advice w/ a grain or f salt. I’m single

I like the advice. Thank you. We've talked about what our ideal relationship looks like. I've communicated as simply as I can...to me it means both parties are proactive about the others needs and wants. In other words, we're working towards each others needs and wants without the recipient having to constantly spell out what it is they need and want. That is what being proactive means to me here. It ebbs and flows. It improves and then quickly dissipates. Honestly, I think she has an incredibly difficult time adjusting her 'schedule.'

You mentioned ‘:we:’ have talked about our ideal relationships- and then stated what you told her but didn’t state what her ideal was.. Did she give a different ideal version? Did she agree with yours? If she has a different ideal and voiced it - and you accepted it at the time… 👀

It sounds as if her ideal relationship is what we have now. I think that’s because she is so comfortable. I think the structure she’s built is her sense of security and change is terrifying for her.

Lots of i thinks… I wonder if she would also reply with the same i thinks

I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at.

Im just going off your previous response. You said you talked about ideal relationships and then gave your expressed full on notion of what you expect. You didn’t say what she had said was her ideal. I asked as a follow up to see if maybe she said something else and you just went with it because love or something else.. You responded not with what she said but what you think she wants. It seems like maybe the two of you aren’t hearing eithers side. You also mentioned in your ideal relationship you want both partners to just know what the other wants without communication always being a main point but you don’t seem to know what she wants, you’ve only noted that you think (generally are guessing) she wants what it is currently but you don’t exactly know that.

That makes sense. She wants quality time together. She wants to sit down together and talk every day. She thrives off of being listened to. I follow up a lot with "tell me more about that." I am attentive to what she tells me she needs like quality time, conversation, and structure. The structure thing translates into me trying not to be late, trying not to be too spontaneous, etc. I do see your point. I try not to expect her to read my mind, but I also expect there to be a certain level of common sense around proactiveness. For example, if I buy lingerie and set it out after telling her how good she would look in it...wouldn't it be somewhat common sense for her to try it on at some point? I am trying to find that balance between having to directly tell her what I want in some cases and expecting her to be proactive and use some judgement about it.

Do you know of anything recently that could be distracting her or making her not as in the mood to put lingerie on? Kids can be tough, you never feel super sexy after having kids especially if / when you’re having issues with kids (maybe they’re in s growth spurt and cranky or they’re being more disruptive or something happened at school etc) maybe she’s not feeling as great with her workouts or maybe she’s suffering depression recently. You mentioned you had a trip I don’t know if it was recent - but she was angry about it and combative during - maybe she’s still sour over that? Have you asked her specifically if anything is more tough lately for her or stressing her out? Not saying it’s particularly okay for her to X y z because of extra stress but that could explain the lingerie

I am sure it has something to do with how busy we've been lately. Of course, kids cause stress and keep us busy. The part the was a bit bothersome to me is that she put it up and went for a month without ever thinking about it. I think I mentioned it a couple of times in an indirect way, but it just never occurred to her that 'hey, my husband bought me this...maybe he wants me to try it on.' Maybe I am reading too much into that, but it sort of indicates to me that our relationship is somewhere towards the bottom of her priority list. I get that it's a simple and seemingly small thing, but it would be 100% common sense to me to try something on if my wife bought it for me. Again, I understand what I am say may seem insignificant to some, but it's the thought process that's a red flag to me combined with the previous context I've shared. I don't think we have a bad relationship yet. I'm just concerned with some of the things I've shared here and don't want it to continue unnoticed in that direction.

You see, I think this is where you are wrong. I’ve noticed two things here. You mentioned in your post that ‘complaining’ is unattractive. Complaining is a form of communication and a form of expression. It is a way of us communicating our emotions. Now, HOW you complain and express and communicate is incredibly important. Yes, some forms of complaining are unattractive, but silence is MORE unattractive. Next, you’re saying that a proactive relationship means both parties NOT spelling out what they want? How do you both KNOW what you need? How do you know what your wife needs? Do you read the tea that she leaves behind in her cup? Or do you SPEAK to her and ASK questions and communicate? It sounds to me like you need couples therapy. Just to learn how to communicate your feelings and expectations better. Because if you were both REALLY good at that, you wouldn’t be here. Also, your perspective about her taking things for granted is really problematic. You have your lifestyle and she has hers. If you resent her schedule and her time and the things that she’s doing, that’s a huge issue. I assume that you both decided that she was going to stop working? You can’t then turn around and get annoyed at her for her lifestyle now. You created this ‘problem’. It would be the same as if she turned around and got annoyed at you because you have to leave for work. If you want this relationship to work, you’re going to need to change and you’re going to need to work hard. It sounds like you don’t know if she’s prepared to do that. But you’ve got nothing to lose if you’re unhappy with your current status quo. What kind of relationship do you want? How do you make that work? How do you get there? Time to have some hard conversations and do some growth together. It can be fun and exciting or it can be a massive issue. How you approach and make it happen is totally up to you.

I agree with every word you said (seriously OP take note), except this part: >If you resent her schedule and her time and the things that she’s doing, that’s a huge issue. I assume that you both decided that she was going to stop working? You can’t then turn around and get annoyed at her for her lifestyle now. You created this ‘problem’. I'm taking OP at their word here, but I'm seeing resentment for the lack of *flexibility* and *consideration* moreso than the schedule/lifestyle itself. He's willing to be flexible enough to pick up the kids when he wasn't expecting to so she can take a nap. Asking if she can cover one morning as a one-off or at the end of a particularly difficult project (that he communicated in advance which is key) doesn't sound unreasonable. Relationships aren't 50-50 they're 100-100. Sometimes one partner has to step up and carry extra load when the other one can't, and vice versa. What I'm hearing from OP is that he's feeling she wouldn't step up and be flexible or proactive about their relationship. Whether that's true or not should be a topic in the therapy for communication you suggested. It's also possible she could be already stepping up in ways he doesn't realize. For example, sometimes a spouse will complain they do all the housework because they only "count" the things they do as housework; they don't consider yardwork or home maintenance to "count". Either way, that should 100% come up in therapy.

I don’t understand how men in long-term relationships feel as though they cannot complain about something. Sure, if you do it frequently it can be perceived as whiny and annoying, but there are times where you can legitimately complain and address problems in your relationship. Avoiding talking about something because it is a complaint is a sure fire way to open yourself up to resentment down the line. Address the issue calmly and try to not be emotional about it when stating what is bothering you. I don’t like this idea that women are above having complaints thrown at them, and that they are these infallible beings or they cannot bear it. Not only will resentment arise but so too will a spouse’s entitlement. Just as OP is thinking, he IS being taken for granted. His wife is putting her schedule above his (very infrequent and minor) request for some time for exercise; also giving her advance notice of his difficult time like that is quite considerate. Yeah, she is working in her own way (not denigrating it) but he is bringing home the money and affording her this lifestyle so his needs are important too.

Why does such good advice routinely come from single people?

It’s an incredible privilege to have a routine like that. An absolutely 1% sort of privilege to be able to sleep during the day and workout twice a day. She’s turned that privilege into entitlement. Why do you feel taken advantage of? Because you’re being taken advantage of.

Nailed it. This comment Is spot on!

I'm wondering what their childcare situation is. If childcare doesn't eat up her potential paycheck, maybe it's time for her to look for part-time work. She may have become compulsive about her routine rather than strict, to the point where she is consumed by it. She clearly wants to stay in shape, it's obviously important to her and OP (one of his first descriptors about himself). I feel like her privileged routine has become the only focus, rather than a means to an end.

Staying in shape doesn’t require two hour long runs though. Time to break the compulsion

[удалено]

Lol my bad.

It sounds like you are putting in most of the work and not getting much back. Maybe make it clear you are really not that happy and things have to change? That or try couples therapy.

+1 to the couples therapy. In my experience it helped that an unbiased 3rd party was able to call us out on how our actions make the other person feel. For some reason, we were more open to listening to the 3rd party than each other too.

Therapy sounds like the right option. Is something in her life out of control? Because she’s holding on REAL tight to her schedule, something she can control.

use the same logic and tell her you are going to gym and let her deal.

I am no pushover. I promise. We compromise a lot. I tell her what I am going to be doing. I schedule days out alone by myself to do whatever I want. It's really just a matter of some of the little things I've noticed (as mentioned above) where I feel that if she responds like that to little things then she must be taking a lot for granted. Does that make sense?

You need to read "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Dr Robert Glover and "When I say no I feel guilty" by Manuel Smith. Maybe you willingly gave, rather than got pushed to it, but the result is the same here man. Don't accept anything less than the marriage you deserve. Second ing the individual therapy for both recommendation.

OP, don't just gloss over this suggestion. 90% of the comments/upvotes here are exactly the same; couples therapy/communication/connection/etc. Those are likely being given to you by people in a similar situation to yours. Don't take advice on relationships from anyone in anything less than an outstanding relationship. I could've written this post nearly verbatim 2 years ago along with most of the "advice" you are getting. Reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" was the beginning of actual change for me. My wife was a lot like yours (similar upbringing) pretty much zero affection or expectation of truly shared responsibilities. Now she genuinely initiates physical affection and sex, consciously considers the impact her schedule has on the total outcome for the family. So much more I could say but start with NMMNG.

Completely agree. It changed my life, no question. In fact, I'd say things like couples therapy, love languages, or much of anything wouldn't be useful without it. It's a change of fundamental beliefs that need to take place and things fall into place after that

Both of these books changed my life.

Such a simple book and so helpful for many modern men.

" I never ask her to adjust her schedule." and "I tell her what I am going to be doing. I schedule days out alone by myself to do whatever I want". So which one is it? The latter may indicate that you are imposing your schedule and expect her to live with that

It’s both IMO. I schedule my days out ahead of time. Weekends are more flexible so that’s when I take a day out. I rarely ask her to adjust her schedule during the week. The weekend schedule for everyone in general is more open.

Does she have days alone?

Ok. To me it seems that if one person just does whatever they want one day, without checking with the other person, that means that the other person, even though not directly asked to adjust, is just put in this situation with no deciding power for them. It was decided for them. But I appreciate that I am not there, I don't fully understand your situation. I wish you all the best and can only recommend talking more about such situations. Even if the talking hurts.

You’ve painted the tip of an iceberg in this post. Get marriage counseling.

Your wife sounds a bit OCD. Working out twice a day plus a walk is a bit over the top. And being completely inflexible with her schedule or she gets angry is perhaps an indication of that as well. I think marriage counseling and individual therapy for both of you may be the only way you see some changes. As it is, she has exactly what she wants and isn’t willing to change or give an inch. And you seem to be enabling that behavior rather than setting firm expectations and boundaries for the relationship. It may be that neither of you are meeting each others’ needs. Yours is physical touch and if she’s not affectionate then she’s probably not meeting that need. What are her love languages? Are you meeting those needs? Regardless, from what you’ve said it sounds like you are trying to be a partner and she is trying to do her own thing by herself. Couples and individual therapy seems to be the only way for you to see improvement in your relationship. Otherwise, you could be headed toward divorce.

This is interesting. We did personality tests recently. She was described as inflexible, too serious, hyper-efficient. One thing that caught my attention was that the personality type had a hard time 'enjoying life' and often didn't consider what made others happy for the sake of 'efficiency.' I felt like I was reading a book about my wife and I. Her love language is acts of service and quality time. I normally schedule a date night every two weeks. We have great conversation and time together. We eat dinner together most every night and have conversation. She's never communicated to me that I am coming up short in giving her what she needs as far as love languages. Over the past two years, I've planned a few surprise vacations that we really enjoyed. The hard part is that I don't want to completely blame her for how I feel. At the same time, I wonder if she thinks that our relationship is so *stable and comfortable* for her that she doesn't think she needs to continue to put much effort into things that matter to me. I am also open to being completely wrong here. Part of my personality type is being a perfectionist and a tendency to have unrealistic expectations. That's why I posted for feedback and wasn't blindly blaming my wife. :)

I’ve had an identical background as your wife. But I was also raised in complete chaos with zero structure whatsoever. And I am very similar to how she is now (minus all the naps, I wish!). I hold on to structure and routine for dear life. Especially when it comes to my workout routine. I get annoyed when something interferes with that. My husband does his best to work around that which I really appreciate because he knows how important it is to me. My love language is also acts of service. His is quality time and words of affirmation. I consider him letting me do my thing as a major act of service and I *express* how much I appreciate it so he gets his words of affirmation. Sit her down and both of you do the love language test together. See how much love each of you are getting from each other and how. Make it an equal playing field so no one can get defensive. The results will always be in the back of your minds going forward. I did this whimsically with my husband for fun but we really took it to heart and go out of our way to make sure we’re fulfilling each others expectations. I also want to mention that part of the strictness of the routines and schedules can be due to anxiety/depression. The structure is what makes me feel safe because of my background, so a change in that throws me off balance and I get anxiety. I’m aware of that though so I don’t lash out or anything but maybe your wife needs some individual therapy or self reflection that might help bring awareness to any issues with anxiety/depression. I ended up going on a low dose of antidepressants and it was a huge game changer for me, for the better. Also, I would have done the same thing your wife did with the lingerie- nothing against my husband at all- I would have appreciated the gesture- it just would have been on the bottom of my list of things to do having young kids to look after lol. But because I thrive on structure if my husband said “we’re having a date night on Saturday and I want to see you in that lingerie” I would be able to plan for it and game on! Best of luck to you both.

I should have been more direct about the lingerie thing, but at the same time that’s where I want some proactiveness on her part. I don’t want to be the bottom of the to do list or not even on it. I don’t want to spell it out all the time as far as what I want. We’ve been together a long time. I feel like at least some of it should be common sense, right?

Agreed, my first thought reading this is that his wife probably has some undiagnosed OCD or ADD. If so, she may not be acting this way to hurt OP, but it's because of how her brain works.

Yep me too she sounds neuro diverse and like a change of routine is very difficult for her. Something for both OP and his wife to consider. People like this often do well with a relationship plan or calendar. If she knows when she needs to do these things for OP well ahead of time she will be able to accommodate it and then will likely rigidly stick to this plan.

She is hyper-efficient. She has a to do list everyday. Literally, everything is planned down to the hour. It causes her (in my opinion) to be high stress and has a really difficult time relaxing. She has a hard time sitting down, having a drink, and doing nothing with me. Does she do it on occasion? Yes, but not enough for my sake. Does she occasionally initiate sex? Yes, but it's obvious it's not something she wants to do for very long. She seems to feel that everything is a waste of time if she cannot see the 'productivity' in it. She is working towards improving this mindset.

I wonder what she’d think about putting intimate time with you on her list. It might create a shift while still honoring her way of being.

We've done that and I believe it helps. I don't necessarily like feeling like a check box on a to do list, but I can't complain about that.

As someone with adhd and high stress this sounds like me, definitely possibly neurodivergent and she just needs to become aware of it so communicate to her how you feel is a start

I also thought about her being on the spectrum as he stated how important her schedule is to her and that she is not very affectionate. But I'm no expert

Whatever her needs are they are not met. On the surface she has it good, but a reasonably happy person would not behave like this. The only other explanation would be that she is a bad person, but it does not seem to be the case. So yea something is really wrong; three workouts a day sounds like escaping reality to me, it is not healthy. Going to bed early, sleeping the majority of the day away. Getting angry about not getting her fix. No initiative or wanting to have sex.. She is not doing well. She could be an entiteled brat with some issues, but I would be worried she is really not doing okay first.

The three runs a day thing stood out to me too, it's like she's trying to get free of her house.

I agree, perhaps even Autisic.

I’m 37 and unmarried and this is depressing AF.

Same here lol. I can’t wait to get married someday but I don’t think I could tolerate such selfishness from a spouse 😕

No love languages but you dig physical touch. So there’s a communication break down. Get into some therapy/couples counseling and find a sex-positive therapist (that’s a non-negotiable). Don’t buy someone sexy clothes when your sex life isn’t banging already *and* you’ve discussed it beforehand. Bro. You both have needs. They are of equal importance. The frame should be us vs the problem. So instead of “you need to meet my needs”, “how can we have more intimacy?” Something like, “how do we create an environment where sex can happen and we are both into it at the same time?”

One of the saddest lessons my marriage taught me was that you really don't understand who a person is for a very long time. Quite often, you're several years or perhaps even a decade in before you understand them. So, by the time you're deeply invested, old habits have become older habits. At this point, you're expecting someone to change behavior that they've gotten quite comfortable and used to. People only change when they absolutely feel driven to. You can try to create conditions that encourage her to want to change. Otherwise, I commend you for being absolutely vocal and clear and kind about your feelings, however you'll have to decide whether certain elements of her behavior are untenable. In my experience, ultimatums are destructive. The most you can ever do is express your needs and desires. It's on your partner to respect them and to accommodate them - or not. It's on you to set your limits.

> She is a great mom > We share household responsibilities. I help pick up the kids, help pickup the house, do dishes, bedtime routines, etc. > She often takes naps in the afternoon before picking up the kids. Sounds like the kids are at daycare/school all day, and you help her (equally) with preparing the kids for the day. She picks them up. If you were to replace her duties with a nanny and house sitter/maid, what would remain? What is essential about your relationship with her? Human to human?

The occasions where she is able to relax with me are great. It's fairly rare where she can truly relax, but it happens. She is hyper-efficient. She has to have something to do most of the time. She has to 'check the boxes' on her daily to do list. I've tried the approach of taking more off of her plate as far as chores/household items, but I am not going to sacrifice myself like that. I already help quite a bit with household items and kids. I work full time. She does not. I never will and never have held that over her head in any way. That's what I wanted, but I am not willing to self-sacrifice much more because I am afraid her 'to do' list would fill up with more things.

> It's fairly rare where she can truly relax, but it happens. Something is amiss, with the way you described her life she should be able to find time to relax. It sounds like she doesn't want to relax or doesn't see it as worthwhile? Is there a way she can "trick" herself into relaxing more by making it a to-do list item? Like getting a massage or meditating in the park or yoga or whatever meshes with her style?

If you make good money you should be paying others to do some if not alot of this work, you time is valuable and if you can afford it it would take more pressure off both of you to have a nanny and maid come more often etc. or a personal assistant, what is on these to do lists?

The only thing I can really say is that the children have become the priority for her. Full stop. Having gone through this process, my wife spends every waking moment thinking about the children and is really not the same person I married. I am just not in the priority list. Just like how the first born realizes they have been displaced. So the father goes through something similar with wife having children.

I think it’s more than that. She prioritizes the children, yes. Then she prioritizes her workout. Then she prioritizes sleep. Then she prioritizes her todo list. To me, prioritizing children means the children’s NEEDS come first. For instance, if you only have enough money for a personal pan pizza, you would prioritize the child’s hunger and not eat that evening. This is on an entirely different level. This is neglect, disrespect (maybe even contempt), and laziness.

>This is on an entirely different level. This is neglect, disrespect (maybe even contempt), and laziness. Unfortunately, I think this is the case. OP’s wife sounds like she lacks major self-awareness or is a selfish, entitled, spoiled brat. No (emotionally) healthy wife would do that to her dedicated, diligent, loyal husband who puts in the work in their marriage and family. Reading posts like OP’s post makes me feel so bad for straight men married to straight women in the 21st century. Husbands and fathers, you all deserve better for everything you do and sacrifice for your spouse and kids.

It's really sad to hear you've accepted this as your life. This is not how it should be or how it is for a lot of marriages. You're more than a walking wallet. Brene Brown has a great talk on a man who approached her and said 'Look at my wife and three kids. They would rather me die than for me to fall off of my white horse.' You belong on the priority list. I can't imagine staying married like this is better than divorced and meeting someone who loves and prioritizes you, but I chose a child-free life and won't pretend to know what life would be better or worse, just seems like it's miserable.

Are you married and do you have kids?

Married (8 years together, I'm 41). Purposefully child free as these are the type of issues that scared me away from having children. I dated a woman who said she couldn't wait to stop having sex after she had kids, it was one of the most terrifying moments and realizations in life that some women look at courting and early marriage as a job to get to their goal (children) and then relegate their husband to working and support. Scared me straight.

It has it’s plusses and minuses. I love my daughter and am happy for the opportunity to watch her grow and get to know her. Being in complete service to my child has helped me understand my relationship with my parents ( and increased my gratitude). My capacity for love has increased dramatically. I’m much more focused and responsible. I want to give her a good example of what a man can be. My life has taken on a new meaning, but it is challenging not being on the priority list.

That all makes sense and I don't think I made the right choice by not having children, by any means. I've already had a lot of challenges growing up and in my adult life. The thought of being married, having kids and suddenly not mattering at all (or getting divorced and having no money and not seeing my kids half the time), it was just too much for me to handle. If I really wanted kids, I would have had them. Being on the fence, there was too much risk for me to go down that route. I do think kids add a lot of purpose to life, one big negative of being child-free is the struggle with purpose. In the long run, have kids if you want kids, if you don't, don't.

Dang man how do ya cope

I have hobbies. Do a lot of physical training. Talk with male friends. I also don’t become complacent and maintain my individualism. I guess there is a pattern where my wife just wants me to fall in line and ‘get with the program’ but I still hold my ground and let her know she doesn’t get to control everything. It can create tension but I think it prevents her from taking me for granted if that makes sense. Let her know I’ve got boundaries and needs. That I’m not afraid to be disagreeable.

As the kids get older, will this relax a bit? I imagine schedules are very busy when they are 0 -10, but as they become more independent (and *want* independence from their parents) there should be times where they aren't demanding anything. You should still feel loved and feel visible in a relationship, even if free time is at a premium.

Whe. The kids get older it gets worse then they leave and you divorce.

I can't speak from experience, but I guess you have to emotionally prepare for that - and not let the misery drag out longer than it needs to.

Agreed. When the children leave many couples realise they have nothing left to say to one another. Many women completely shove aside the man once he has served his purpose to help make children and then he is just there to lean on as a convenience as they need him to fix this, lift that, drive there, sort this out and see to that..

That sounds terrible. Society cannot sustain if couples are giving up sticking it out long term once they've performed their legal duty to raise kids until they're 18. I feel so sorry for the children who are going to be the most affected by this.

Things change a lot. I don’t have a lot of hope. Staying strong and resilient is my strategy.

>I also don’t become complacent and maintain my individualism. This is something that needs to be emphasized, too many guys (and women for that matter) let their relationships define who they are.

If you guys are finding it hard to talk couples therapy can be incredibly useful. From my own experience once the intimacy the relationship will just die off. And when you have kids and have busy lives it gets easy to just ignore it. That is what killed my marriage. You just can't put this off for when things are easier.

Yep, the husband immediately goes to last place. He’s just another appliance that gets pulled out when it’s needed.

I've never understood how these women don't see that maintaining a healthy marriage is by far the most important thing to their children's future. The statistics about life chances for fatherless households are horrible.

Women refuse to believe those numbers. They WANT to believe that single father households are worse. When every metric says otherwise.

Would probably be a good idea to sit down with a therapist or at least read thru the 7 Principles book together. Sounds like you two are having difficulty communicating needs and expectations clearly.

I’m thirty years in and it never gets better.

Yeah, life doesn’t seem to be about getting what you want. Any wisdom to share?

Don't have kids if there's anything else you want in life

I have three kids and my top goal on life has always been to raise good kids and be a good father and this is 100% true.

If you have kids, you are fourth or fifth on the list. If you have a pet, you fall farther down the list. Accept your lot in life.

As a fellow married guy, which it appears is not very common in these comments, the issue is communication. Your wife and you aren’t communicating. You say she doesn’t take criticism well, and you are going online for advice rather than talking to her, I assume because you are afraid of hurting her feelings. She is also clearly going through stuff, she is clearly sensitive about how people perceive her and making sure people recognize that she is contributing and her time is valuable. She wants to be respected. You want to be respected. You need to communicate and tell each other how you want to be appreciated. My advice is it’s not just your wife that needs to put in work, you do as well. It sounds like you’re really busy, and she has a very rigid schedule. You both need to prioritize each other.

You're to nice. She's taken your for granted because you give her money and support her. If she won the lottery, you'd be out the door. She's already checked out and is just looking how she can get out of the relationship without being homeless and broke. Prob waiting for the kids to be older. Could be wrong obviously.

I don't think our relationship is at that level by any means, but I agree about being too nice. I think I pay too much attention to her wants and needs and therefore she feels totally stable and comfortable to the point where she doesn't have to think too much about me or the relationship. Don't get me wrong, she does support me in a lot of ways, but I would love for her to be more proactive about our relationship and not so stuck in rigid daily schedule that often doesn't involve our relationship unless I pursue it.

You need to have the courage to hold her to her word and to request what you need and tell her how you feel, say hey it really hurt my feels when you threw the lingerie away and made no effort to wear it I felt unwanted, hey when I had a stressful week and you refused a simple schedule change that made me feel like you don't care about me and won't try to help me when I need to de-stress etc.

Man, the hardest thing here is that you have to be willing to both set *and enforce* your own boundaries, even with your partner. I'm of the opinion that it's not a good idea to use the kids as leverage in any way (i.e. don't be like "sorry about your nap, I refuse to pick up the kids today"), but maybe you can offload some of the things on her to figure out - State that "we need to have sex this week and I need you to make it spicy and fun" and then let her figure that out. Tell her you expect nudes after her workouts a couple of times a week. Set expectations and then let her work out what that means. I don't know that this will actually help to make her show genuine appreciation and desire for you, but it might make her more aware of what you want/need.

>If she won the lottery, you'd be out the door. >She's already checked out and is just looking how she can get out of the relationship without being homeless and broke. Prob waiting for the kids to be older. OP’s wife sounds like she lacks major self-awareness (she doesn’t realize how good of a life she has with her husband and kids) or is a selfish, entitled, spoiled brat who views her husband not as a human being and a man but as a commodity to wring out the most value from. No (emotionally) healthy wife would do that to her dedicated, diligent, loyal husband who puts in the work in their marriage and family. Reading posts like OP’s post makes me feel so bad for straight men married to straight women in the 21st century. Husbands and fathers, you all deserve better for everything you do and sacrifice for your spouse and kids.

Has affair been ruled out? Two workouts a day is a bit much.

I might be off here, but I am picking up a theme that you remain silent or beat around the bush too much. Tip-toeing around her reactions (or at least what you expect her reactions would be). I think she knows this, so she has learned to read in between the lines with you. Sometimes she is wrong, like when you sent her the sex articles and she thought it was a critique on her. The lingerie may have been a similar thing. Whatever you intended by buying it, that message probably didn't get through to her in the same way. > I don’t complain to my wife. It’s not attractive Would "I don't communicate to my wife" be a more accurate way to put it? You are allowed to complain. In fact, you *should*. It does nobody any good to bottle things up and build resentment. If you don't tell her, she won't know. Or she'll guess, probably incorrectly. I'm not trying to place all of the blame on you with this comment or anything, but just wanted to provide some additional perspective that the other commenters had not yet. My wife and I had a partially similar dynamic a few years back, and marriage counseling really helped (along with individual therapy). I know that has the reputation of being like "divorce junior" or something, but it really helped us a lot and quite possibly prevented an unnecessary divorce. I think the key is to get into it *before* it becomes a divorce-level crisis. At the very least I'd try some individual talk therapy for you. That will help you sort things out.

Because you care more about the relationship than she does.

I probably care more. Yes. I also tend to think she is so comfortable and I've been too supportive so she doesn't think there is anything to be proactive about if that makes sense. It's a given we're just going to continue as is in her mind. It's also difficult because I don't think she believes that consciously. I believe she needs total predicable structure with her personality in general. She needs to know when and how things are going to go and she doesn't want any surprises or ambiguity. IMO she sort of overlays that perspective on our relationship and doesn't see if (sometimes) as something that could end.

Then tell her she needs to change that or leave.

I feel this, and I think being flexible in your own perspective is important. Especially when your partner is inflexible. If you expect to be appreciated or loved in obvious ways, you may miss how she gives you that in her own, less obvious ways. If her ways don't particularly include touch or wearing lingerie, or being flexible with her schedule, then asking for those things as a way to show her appreciation is probably frustrating for both of you. One thing I keep in the back of my mind is that (mostly) everyone feels like they do more than their partner even when that's not true. I'd assume your wife also feels she does more. I think shooting for an equal 50/50 relationship leads to counting points and resentment. Trying for 80/30 is better because you anticipate doing more and are fine with your partner doing less. The actual outcome is probably 50/50, without counting points or resenting each other for the perceived imbalance.

This resonated. I think she thinks she shows love to me, but it's in her way of showing love and not necessarily how I've told her I feel loved.

You didn't mention anything about your sex life? I assume based on all of this that it's not happening as much as you want it to? That is a big detail you left out but I think it goes without saying... I'm not married but I've certainly been in relationships where I felt like I was carrying the team and it was no fun. I'm now in a relationship with a very supportive partner and it's pretty refreshing to feel wanted and to feel like there is a sense of urgency on her part to keep "watering" the relationship if you will. I will never be in a relationship with a princess ever again. And it seems like your wife is acting like one. Not working and expecting you to do your "share" of the household work is insane and I will never understand how relationships can devolve to this kind of setup. I'm not going to go all-reddit on you and tell you to divorce your wife. I'm only seeing one side of this story and I'm sure that's the last thing you want to do. I would suggest reading the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. Based on what you've written, it seems like you could stand to learn some lessons from it. The title is a bit click-baitey but I promise you it will give you some insight on your self-sabotaging behaviors. Good luck!

I find it very funny that the good advice is downvoted.

The expectations we talk about the most are around physical touch and sex. Sex life, I would say, is good not great. We have sex 2-3 times a week. I initiate most of the time. I like to learn about sex in general and improve myself in that area. It's fun. I enjoy it. She has a hard time letting go completely and enjoying herself IMO. She wants to be finished with it in 10-15 minutes each time. I do a lot of the 'giving' so to speak. Like 98%. I read a couple of great articles about men's erogenous zones once. I made the mistake of sending them to her. I simply said they were good informative articles and explained why I sent them. She got mad about it saying I was sending them because "something wasn't good enough for me" and "I'm never content." She also told me in the same breath that I was "hard on her." This shocked to me to be honest just based on the lifestyle she is able to live. I also don't pressure her to have sex. I initiate, but I back off and don't complain if she rejects me (doesn't happen often). I am generally lighthearted and relaxed so I was legitimately confused by her words. I asked her to give me an example of how I was hard on her so I could fix it. She couldn't give me one single example. The only thing I can think of is that I talk about sex on a regular basis, but always in a positive light. I like this. I like that. I want to try this, etc. I never criticize her in any way. I am wondering if she perceives my talking about it in general as some sort indirect way of me communication things aren't good enough. What I have started to notice is that she absolutely despises anything that could possibly change (even in the slightest) the structure around her day and herself that she has built. It seems to be a defense mechanism that she gets a bit upset and not receptive if I even bring anything up about her that could possibly be changed for the better of our relationship. That's how I see it from my point of view. Again, I am trying to be extremely self observant to ensure this isn't a bunch of bs that I've concocted from a misperception of reality. I suspect though that she is not receptive partly due to how she was brought up with a super critical and unloving motherly figure. I've read No More Mr. Nice Guy twice. Helped me a lot.

You have sex 2-3 times a week? I am married with 2 kids under 8, and I'm lucky to have sex 2 times a month!

Same. Married with two kids, ages 6 & 8. We barely have sex once a month. Our libido & interest in each other physically has gone downhill. Either that or we’re just too tired when we go to bed.

You've talked a lot about her "routine". Have you thought about taking a vacation just to shake things up? I mean a vacation where you travel alone for two weeks to a month and she deals with the family. It could be good for both of you if you're able to negotiate it (or just say that it's happening, depending on how old your kids are).

[удалено]

Of course I do. We’ve had a great relationship for a long time. These are fairly recent developments that I’m trying to figure out how to navigate effectively. Not working and having a new identity is still fairly new so I want to be considerate of that while communicating effectively. She has a ton a positive traits about her. These recent events got me thinking that the mindset/relationship may be headed in an undesirable direction. I am trying to get ahead of that.

No it’s not insane you can’t compare full time with kids to working most 9-5’s. He’s not “helping” he’s being a good father. However, his wife isn’t being a good wife. Her marriage should come first before anything. If she’s overwhelmed they should hire a cleaner. So, she can spend more time with her husband. And, yes I was looking for information concerning their sex life too.

We hired a cleaner. Have had one for a while :)

Yikes! When you guys were dating did you feel that she was “out of your league”?

That’s what I was thinking too … I am curious if he married her for looks. And now looks are fading, he’s noticing her personality …

Yep, I’m waiting for his response concerning this.

Honestly, no. I feel we're pretty similar when it comes to sexual market value. I take care of myself. She does too.

But I think the problem lies with how much household chores he is helping with as a means to appease to his "stressed out" wife. It's a classic tactic with men to "do more" to get more in return which is exactly what he wants. It's an unconscious expectation. I don't think doing more chores around the house when you're already working full time is going to make his wife desire him more. His wife is definitely not being a good wife but I think men succumb to a pattern of thinking where "if I do A, B, and C more, then my wife will want to have sex with me". It's a slightly manipulative tactic that could come across as unattractive.

This is a good thought. I've often thought if I take enough 'off her plate' so to speak then she'll pay more attention to me and our relationship in general. Strangely, me doing more for her has never improved our relationship from what I can tell. In fact, it's sort of been the opposite. She pays more attention when I back off a bit. She doesn't take me for granted when I take a step back. I work from home so I have to be very thoughtful about how I do this, but I am considering stepping back and not trying so damn hard so to speak. I love my wife, but one of my personality flaws (according to Meyers Briggs) is giving too much. I can definitely see that. I don't mean that as a humble brag. I mean I may give too much and expect the same in return which isn't natural from most people. It's not an excuse. Just thinking out loud.

Lots of red flags here.

Couples therapy provides the opportunity to unpack these feelings in a neutral, constructive environment. If she is receptive to date nights and couples vacations where you have a space to just be a couple again, that might help, too. Also, identifying what she needs from you to feel fulfilled in the relationship and communicating to her that you are willing to rise to those needs could help her reciprocate that same willingness to work on the relationship.

Hi OP I think you are justified in feeling resentful. Personally for me it would be unacceptable for my wife to ask me to pick up the kids since she needs to nap. As the breadwinner to the family you need to be respected. Your wife is lucky enough not to work and has a lot of freedom in her day, something that is 100% attributable to you. My wife works full time, and we share chores and communicate effectively. We each are willing to help each other out and give each other breaks. Like if my wife wants to get a massage or go see friends, I’ll step up and take care of the kids. This is reciprocated. From my perspective your wife is very ungrateful and is taking your support for granted. Tell her you are not happy in the relationship anymore. Tell her you want to go to couples therapy. She needs to understand that you are capable of leaving the relationship and that the life you provide her is not a fairy tale. Give her a reality check.

I do want to send a message. Maybe not that directly or significant yet, but I do need to communicate something. I have a fear that telling her I'm not happy would cause an irreparable rift. I don't think we're there yet. I want to back off of the effort I put in to the relationship honestly. The challenge is she will likely notice things being a bit different and nearly immediately start questioning 'whats wrong' and why I'm not talking as much, etc. Maybe that's the reality check she needs though. I need a solid plan. For now, my plan is to directly confront the things I mentioned through conversation and make clear concise statements about my needs/wants and expectations from a relationship while calling out her perspectives about her schedule and taking it for granted is not ok with me.

You have to tell her. Backing off is good, but, I think the real issue is that you are forced to walk on eggshells because she can't handle criticism. This forces you to be silent. It's your over-empathy to her childhood that allows this dynamic, and ultimately you're getting taken advantage of. But you're complicit in it. The first thing she has to understand is that you're not her mother, and she needs to understand that your needs cannot be conveyed without a little criticism. She wants you to buy into the fantasy that she's perfect - above criticism, change, or meeting your needs. This is a terrible dynamic, and neither you, your wife, or your kids benefit from that. Whether or not you're a pushover doesn't matter if she can't listen to you. It sucks that she has anxiety, maybe depression, maybe OCD, but that's on her to figure out in your dynamic. With counseling for sure. And yeah, you can be understanding, but with limits. If she can't take criticism then she can't be wrong, and if she can't be wrong things will always go her way. Something that's really helped me with all this - I'm not trying to be a good guy, im just going to be genuine, with myself and others. I'd rather be genuine and genuinely happy than a good person.

I am hoping we made a breakthrough. I confronted her about all of this. I asked how I was “hard on her” considering the life she has. She couldn’t answer or give me one example at all. I asked if she thought she perceived communicated wants and needs as criticisms because of how she was brought up. She thought about it and said yes. She explained she feels she’s not good enough if even a minor change or improvement is suggested…even if suggested in the nicest most positive way possible. This opened the door to me being able to tell her I did feel taken for granted again and that I don’t feel loved much of the time because my love language isn’t considered because it’s just not a part of her structure. I tend to think it’s because she can’t justify it as being “productive” on a subconscious level. It was interesting because I explained how I feel loved for the 1000 time, but it was different because it was the first time she acknowledged she had an issue with how she perceived the situation. I explained we’ll go days without her being affectionate even in a non sexual way. She said “it doesn’t even cross her mind.” She meant that subconsciously it does not occur to her to do those things like physical touch. I explained that this awareness was good, but it doesn’t make the situation any better. She opened up and said it helped her to know when and how to be affectionate. It literally helps her to put it on her calendar and know exactly what is going to happen. While I understand, this is hard to hear because I don’t want to be an obligatory check box to be completed by some machine like process. I want to be loved spontaneously because I’m worth loving out of the goodness of her heart rather than a structured to do list. I told her I wasn’t going to plan out every instance of affection for her and it was up to her to meet in the middle on this because I had already gone way past the middle on my end. Overall, the conversation was extremely positive and ended on a good note. At the end of the day time will tell if action is taken on this. I can’t get on board with scheduling everything like that. That’s not love to me. That’s an unnecessary obligation to be a part of a list like that. My plan is continue to talk and be very straightforward about what will work for me going forward. In the meantime, I’ll be a bit less giving and a bit less concerned about all of this. I’ll openly, honestly, and boldly communicate.

I’m struggling with something similar. I feel like me and my GF differ so much in our love languages (mine is physical touch and gifts, hers is affirmation and quality time) yet it constantly feels like I have to work to make sure her love languages/needs are met while mine I have to beg for. About a year ago I had to talk with her because she kept saying that she wouldn’t do certain things like (cooking, helping clean up when she stays over, suprise me with things, you know normal gf things) because those are “wife duties in a gf salary” she doesn’t say it anymore but I still feel like she keeps that attitude. Part of the issue is that she works a very emotionally draining job (teacher) so when I do get to see her she’s pretty much done and I get this shell version of her, which I completely understand why she feels that way. But is it fair to me? Is it fair to me to essentially have to beg my gf to bake for me? Beg my gf to show some form affection when we are together? I try not to let it bother me, but some weeks are harder than others. I actually started to wonder if perhaps she’s cheating on me in some level due to the complete lack of affection and the drop in our sex life

You’re wife needs to start picking up her end of the couch. She’s totally taking you for granted.

> She immediately got mad and emotional accusing me of taking advantage of her schedule like she had nothing to do because “she doesn’t work.” This sounds a *lot* like she is herself feeling insecure and anxious about not working and is projecting that onto you. My wife is a stay at home mom too, and it was a really difficult struggle for her to wrap her head around not having a career to build a sense of self on and not having income to build a sense of self-reliance on.

I identify with your comment here. Im beginning to wonder if her going back to work would be the best thing for her.

Sometimes the best solutions to psychological problems is working directly on the psychology. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with being a stay at home mom and if you can afford it, it really does solve a lot of logistical problems and means the kids get a lot more parental involvement than they would otherwise have. The important part is your wife *feeling OK* with being a stay at home mom.

Have you seen a couples therapist?

I think you would benefit a lot from couples therapy, sounds like you need a bit of a reset. What I will say is that as someone with various mental health struggles, when I’m severely depressed I fall back on routine and I sleep a lot as being awake just feels too hard. Is your wife actually okay?

She sounds depressed or she really doesn’t like you, but would be fucked without you.

You’re negotiating with yourself trying to avoid the clear answer, she doesn’t do more for you because she simply doesn’t want to, be it for entitlement or lack of desire…it’s her problem or defect, is not for you to understand or adapt to

Simply not caring is an option I assume. The challenge is that’s a mindset shift, but part of me thinks I should have much more self worth and self respect and not focus on the relationship dynamic so much. Weirdly enough, I think that would improve the relationship. The problem is executing on that as a mindset shift on a daily basis.

That’s true, you might see a change…enough we won’t know until you try it, but you’re the only person responsible for your joy and peace…and we only got one life.

>I support all of this. Over the past year, I started communicating that I felt taken for granted. Here is the issue in a nutshell You support her lifestyle or you feel taken for granted. You can't take offense to someone's behavior, or more importantly the relationship dynamic you actively participated in building. >I asked her to adjust her schedule one day.... She immediately got mad and emotional accusing me of taking advantage I never ask her to adjust her schedule. You know why she got mad about you asking her to adjust her schedule? To use your own words,you never ask her to adjust her schedule. You set a standard that accommodates her needs, and now after years of that you are rocking the boat. Not saying you are wrong in wanting your own time, but it isn't odd for her to be frustrated with you suddenly trying to change a standard you set and upheld for years. >I was honest with her. I am assuming because of the way she was brought up, she doesn't take criticism well no matter how softly I deliver. You guys are adults, have 3 children, and have been married for over a decade. Yes the way she was brought up matters, but your relationship dynamic likely matters more. She doesn't take criticism well in your relationship because of the way you handle things. To use your own words against you "I support all of this" The more accountability you take in your relationship the greater your ability to change it. >I recently told her I was going to have a very stressful two weeks at work. I wanted to give her a heads up because I tend to talk less and she worries when I talk less. You told her you were going to have a stressful two weeks at work to accommodate her. Do you see the theme yet? >She didn’t do anything to support me in those two weeks. Because you never asked her to, and only warned her that you would be in a bad mood? >She asked me to pickup the kids a couple of days after I got off work so she could go to sleep. I don’t mind doing that of course, Did you want her to support you or do you have no problem accommodating her? All she knows is you accommodated her. Even if you said you wanted support, actions speak louder then words. >I also have certain expectations in my relationships and I cannot tell if my wife isn’t living up them or if I have unrealistic expectations. Expectations are premeditated resentment. You are terrible at advocating for yourself You are amazing at accommodating your wife's needs You completely fail at aligning your actions with your words and expectations. This is a massive issue. Your wife is living up to the standards you actively support. Read that again and again until you start to understand how you didn't just help build this dynamic but consistently and actively (even when you have a couple stressful weeks at work) support it. You expect her to give you a certain amount of respect and appreciation? You have have to lead by example first, meaning respect yourself. Quit giving to get tl:Dr **you treat all of your wife's wants and needs as a priority, and then wonder why she acts like her wants and needs are a priority in the relationship.... you did that

Well this hit me in the gut. I agree. In my mid 30's, I feel like I created this situation to a degree. It's not all bad, but of course I need to work on 'quit giving to get.' I don't necessarily regret it. Maybe because there is no point in regret, but I do agree there needs to be some change. I see it as personal growth and adaptation rather than something to sit around and regret. I work a lot on my mindset to have respect for myself and make myself a priority. I like your advice. It seems like something you've thought about a lot. How would you personally change yourself to align with the advice you're giving? In the past, I feel like I've tried to change a bit regarding how I interact in the relationship...i.e. not putting her first sometimes and not caring so much about her happiness...she quickly catches on to 'something is different or something is wrong' and it becomes hard to maintain. Maybe I need to be more consistent and push through the potential conflict that comes from change.

I think you did a great job articulating your feelings. Hopefully you’re talking to her too. Fear of this situation factored into my desire to not want children - I’d want the option of leaving to be as plausible as possible if this was my partner.

A certified counselor is needed for your marriage. And put your foot down about. Voicing your concerns is not complaining/whining. She’s your wife! Speak up about things. Seek a counselor ASAP, usually when some husbands don’t feel appreciated by their wives. Attention will be sought from a third party who “appreciates” the husband more. Even if you don’t do it physically you most likely will do it emotionally. Get a licensed counselor yesterday! For the both of you. /u/allbusi

Most of the time these types of posts are difficult to tell what the real story is. You get the guy's side (or hers if she's the one posting elsewhere) and you don't know if he's been upstanding or if he's done things his share of things over the course of their marriage that have made her pull away. So it's anyone's guess really. "Best case scenario" is you married someone when you were ~25 and didn't have the forethought to really get down to the nitty-gritty of relationships. Namely talking about how to treat other people and their level of interest in paying attention to how other people are. How they listen. How they care about doing things for the other person or looking out for them. It goes both ways. You never want to date a selfish person, let alone marry them, but it sounds like either you married one or she become that. If you've done nothing egregiously wrong, then it sounds like your wife isn't that type of person to pay attention or care enough to pay attention to what you're telling her. I'm not sure what your guys' relationship is like or what your communication level is between each other, but it sounds pretty bad if she's blowing a basic courtesy out of proportion and can't remember what you tell her about upcoming workloads. It makes me wonder if you ever noticed any selfish or inconsiderate traits in her when you were dating, but oh well. This sounds like a longterm personality thing if she didn't have a reason to turn into that after marriage. I always expect that she has her side of the story too, maybe you're aware of things, maybe not. Best advice is I would suggest couples counseling. Maybe you both would learn a lot about what the other person is thinking if neither of you are great at communicating it directly with each other. Who knows. Sounds like a strange situation to be in to me, but I'm big on communication and would never want to date or marry someone I couldn't be very honest and direct with. Or who isn't extremely aware of the basics of how to care for someone.

I totally understand this is one side of the story. I am open to being 100% wrong and trying to share my unbiased perspective, but again it is only my perspective. This is the reason I posted for feedback without fully blaming my wife for how I felt. I own my happiness. I have not done anything egregiously wrong. We've had a great relationship for a long time. It's been the past couple of years I've noticed some things I didn't particularly like as I mentioned above. I mentioned we recently did a personality test. My wife's described her as 'using logic only. Rarely considering emotions for the sake of being pragmatic. At times, they disregard emotions, especially those of others, and can seem inconsiderate.' This is what makes it hard to address. I don't think she is consciously doing this to be a bad person...it's just sort of her personality. It doesn't make it any better though.

It's tough to get a feel for the situation but based on a couple comments you mentioned (like [this one](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskMenOver30/comments/171d7v9/why_do_i_feel_taken_for_granted_by_my_wife_i_work/k3rlqnz/) ) about how she tends to lean in more when you aren't putting everything in stood out to me. Maybe cause I recognize there is a real dynamic with this that exists. I'm sure some women would find your 110% effort a grand departure from the total lack of effort some of their boyfriends/husbands give them, and quite welcome. Likewise there are some women that probably don't respond that same way to him being the (overly?) giving type. Or not overly giving in actuality, but overly giving to them. Maybe it's a gender role and culture/socialization kind of dynamic and response. It is tough to say. I know that exists out there. And I'm not the type that would want like... a super giver when it comes to a lady either. I wouldn't be surprised if some types want a bit more reined in give and take w/ reciprocity in their personal relationships. They don't actually want everything handed to them and want that feeling of give/take or like they should still be putting effort in on their end too. I'm sure that is a thing for some people, but it doesn't really get talked about much since the usual (and usually justified) complaint from women is "he doesn't do enough". People aren't perfect and it can be easy to take for granted people who are to a degree predisposed to being givers. I'm definitely aware of that having done that to others who didn't deserve it. So who knows. A lot of people can become too comfortable, even the ones who don't think they'd treat someone less well than they'd like - until they realize they're doing it too. That's life for you. I've dated the "logical girl" type in the past, but she still was very emotionally aware of others. She could be somewhat aloof and stoic and I recognize some of that in how you describe your wife, though I think your lady is quite different on the EQ part. Cuz some of the things you mention are basic courtesies anyone would do for the person they're with. So it's tough to say whether she's the type that would respond to a conversation like most would or if you're just better off taking a step back for a bit and seeing what happens. It's very contrary to what most people would think but some people are not good at problem-solving through honest communication. Based on some of what you've written it sounds like she may not be that type to either. Perhaps she's the type that tends to be more responsive to what she's seeing happen in front of her rather than receiving feedback and - well, caring enough to adjust.

Meaning she may start to care if through my actions (not putting as much effort in to the relationship) I show her that her actions or lack there of are not ok?

I mean, you said you think she responds to that from past experiences. If she does actually respond to that, then "great" It's not great and it'd be better if she could take feedback like most people and use it, but perhaps that is not her way.

Exactly, I didn’t want to say it. But, his wife is probably really hot. And he probably thought she was a trophy. But, what some guys can forget. Trophy’s don’t do much.

> But, what some guys can forget. Trophy’s don’t do much. 😂 More or less yeah. I preferred to put the focus on her personality, but you're right I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason behind the personality.

Exactly, I had a former friend like her. I know the signs 😂😂😂

You're wife is an entitled, insecure brat who seems to think she and her routine is all that matters. Tell her to figure out how to fit in relationship therapy into her schedule or you're going ahead with a divorce. Your needs are just as important as hers. End of story.

Sounds like she’s taking and not putting anything back in.

My advice would be: Find a way to have her document your life in the same way you just did. Exchange letters. See where your fundamental differences in understanding are. Either communicate with each other to resolve or seek professional help if it’s outside of what you can accomplish together.

Ask her why she’s not happy. Why she seems resentful. That you feel she’s not interested in supporting you even in these small instances. Tell her how her behaviour appears cold and distancing. Also ask if you are not doing something that she wants.

People will disagree, but you need to be more aloof. Parents don’t get their (adult) kids to call more often by being the ones to call. Time for your own checklist.

I can appreciate the complexity of your situation. It seems you've been making an effort to communicate your needs and concerns to your wife, but there's a disconnect in how those messages are received and acted upon. It's essential to recognize that both partners contribute to a relationship's dynamics. To address your feelings of being taken for granted, consider a heart-to-heart conversation with your wife, perhaps with the help of a couples therapist who can guide you through constructive communication. Explore how her upbringing and your expectations are influencing your relationship. It's crucial to emphasize that you both have valid needs and concerns. Remember, relationships require ongoing effort and adaptation. Seek common ground and mutually agreeable solutions, keeping in mind that change takes time. Your happiness is important, and it's reasonable to work together to find a balance that meets both your needs.

I’m starting to think a third party is the only possible way through to her. I’ll try one more heart to heart depending on how next several months go.

So...what exactly ARE you getting from her in return in the relationship? Sounds like she found a sweet life without respecting how she got it.

You might want to examine whether you’re married to either an overt or covert narcissist.

Love the update! My advice is to not draw a line in the sand about "scheduling." If that's how her brain works, then that's how she can do it. Maybe request that she not make it obvious. It's kind of like remembering birthdays and anniversaries. I put them in my calendar. Sometimes someone will say that it's "cheating" and I shouldn't need a reminder and and should just remember on my own because it's important. But me putting it in my calendar *is* me acknowledging that it is important and worth remembering. So if you make it on to her list, I'd try to view it in a positive light like that. She's not naturally predisposed to spontaneously give affection, but she is making an effort to translate your need into her system. I would guess over time it might become more legitimately spontaneous, or at least appear that way. And too a certain extent, who cares if it was truly spontaneous or if she had it on some list. Don't ruin it by trying to police her brain. And she also shouldn't ruin it by making the list-aspect of it obvious. But seriously, that you two could have such a productive conversation is a great sign!

I do agree with this. I won’t police how her brain works, but at the end of the day there are things she needs to address with herself. I think there is most likely a ton of anxiety that goes unaddressed in her day to day. IMO, it’s on both of us to be proactive about keeping the spark alive and proactively being attentive to each others wants and needs and adjusting accordingly. It’s not love if I have to build out a to do list of my own wants and needs consistently. That may be how her brain works, but it’s also up to her to do some critical thinking about what I may want and need based on many years together and everything I’ve shared. It’s up to her to be proactive and understand to a degree what makes men happy. She can’t read my mind and we’re never going to be perfect, but seeing some effort would make all the difference in the world to me. Hearing her say, “these things literally never cross my mind” crushed me even though she meant it as subconsciously they don’t cross her mind. Along the same lines, it’s up to me to be proactive about understanding and adjusting to her wants and needs. I make a conscious effort to eat dinner with her every night so she can talk to me and we connect and she connects. Again, I support whatever schedule she wants to have within reason. I help with the kids quite a bit despite me working full time. It would be highly frustrating and unattractive to her if she had to approach me daily or weekly to schedule time with me to eat dinner and talk. She’d be upset I just didn’t “get it” and make it happen on my own. The bottom line is I invest a lot into the relationship in the form of her love language. I want her to understand I’m not her provider/financial support/babysitter. I’m her husband who cares about her and cares about keeping the relationship fresh and alive. I put time and energy into reading and educating myself on how to do that. I need a small bit of effort from her in return in the context of my love languages.

Smart men don’t get married. Even when you come to the realisation that she is taking you for granted (she is) and refuses to do anything about it (she won’t), what can you do? Are you willing to nuke the marriage and the reality of your 3 young kids? You’re stuck and she knows it.

>Smart men don’t get married. >Even when you come to the realisation that she is taking you for granted (she is) and refuses to do anything about it (she won’t), what can you do? Are you willing to nuke the marriage and the reality of your 3 young kids? >You’re stuck and she knows it. This deserves to be top comment on this post.. Women initiate at least 70% of divorce. And that’s a conservative estimate. I’d say the actual number is more like women initiate 80% of divorce, take custody of the kids, divorce ruin/humiliate her husband, require exorbitant alimony and child support, then deny her husband access to his own kids. Who’s the heartless psychopath?! The answer is clear. Until family law and the court system are truly fair, men shouldn’t get married to women. Fellow men, stop legally binding yourself to a woman and stop letting yourself get taken advantage of! /endrant

Sorry you're dealing with this, and I wish I had the time to go into more detail and provide more nuance, but I don't. So this is going to sound a little Red Pillish even though that is not the intention. In general she is not seeing you in your element doing the things that make you successful. I wouldn't be surprised if the respect and validation you get from the women you work with is in stark contrast to what you see from your wife. The problem is all she sees is you capitulating to her and her needs, and the capitulation makes you seem weak. She doesn't see the battles you fight at work, the strategies you implement to close a deal, the cooperation and teamwork required to be successful, or the iron you lift to build muscle. All she sees is the results (money and health). She's running the house, I'm assuming competently, and you are just a part of that system. You're role is too abstract. Wish I had more time, hope that helps

This has something to it. I work from home. That is part of the problem in being taken for granted. I have an excellent, highly sought after job. I would love to hear more from you on your thoughts.

I think your problem stems from other women to be honest. Your wife probably feels unappreciated being a mother and wife (jobs) because women today put them down constantly for “not working” or “not having a job”. I have the same problem with my wife. Any request is basically an attack on her and they take it something like - “just because I don’t have a job doesn’t mean you can disregard my time. I handle a ‘mental load’ ensuring kids appointments are met, birthdays and planned etc”. I sympathise with this with them and I’m sure you’re the same. You don’t think they “do nothing” but they essentially feel this way and a woman’s feelings override any logic or reality. I’m not sure there’s any answer there but maybe some understanding that will help. One suggestion would be to just tell your wife rather than ask her in these situations when you need change. Asking adds too much thinking they aren’t equipt for.

this happens when someone doesn't work. they lack purpose/trajectory and have to make up something rigid. hyperfocus on details and self-made structure and low self-esteem that can't take criticism or suggestion.

I’ve done my best to be considerate of this fact .

This sounds like it could be a communication problem. From both parties. My mom grew up in a similar situation, and it took until she was 60 to finally break all the way down and talk about it. Thankfully, newer generations are lessening the stigma of talking about trauma. In the meantime, she was feeling insulted by everything and feeling that everyone else thinks she is stupid, and generally having ptsd, anxiety, and depression. These things are very difficult to communicate due to the trauma response. It effectively shuts down parts of the brain. Similarly, you don't have to pretend not to be stressed. Maybe you have expectations that you haven't clearly communicated. For example: you told her you were going to have a stressful couple weeks, but did you say "it would really help if you did a, b, or c". Also, realize that you can ask for things and not necessarily get them. If that crosses a boundary for you, you need to identify the boundary and communicate it. Your wife didn't try on the lingerie you bought her, but she didn't communicate with you about it. It could be anything from "I feel ugly after having children" to "this isn't my style" to "why did you buy this for me... you only want me for sex" to "I feel lonely and this doesn't cut it" to "i dont know what you expect of me for affection because my mother didnt show any and i was never good enough so clearly i'm not good enough for you either". No one can know without communication. Yes, working hard and being in shape is nice, but it's not a substitute for connection.

Imagine if the genders where reversed. People would be calling for a divorce after five sentences.

>Imagine if the genders where reversed. People would be calling for a divorce after five sentences. Not even five sentences. Women are encouraged and celebrated to divorce at any time for any reason or for no reason at all. You can see how this detrimental mindset of freedom to divorce wreaks havoc upon everyone involved and rips apart families, communities, societies. Quite frankly, if two people need to consent to getting married, then those same two married people need to consent to getting divorced. In the cases of abuse or violence, clear evidence should be required for one party divorce without the other party’s consent. It’s absurd how women in the 21st century society have more rights and less responsibility / accountability for their actions. Just look up punishments for criminals male vs female. Exact same crime, women get shorter, less severe punishments than men overall. Edit 1: It seems that modern women only complain if societal systems don’t work in their favor. And then if some societal systems work in their favor while also disadvantaging men, modern women don’t care. Feminism is a power grab by women. If women truly cared about equality for everyone, it’d be called humanism and they’d identify as humanists.

> Three young children So, a few things come to mind here. I think you're right, if it helps, you are taken for granted. From a brief overview, your wife seems to have a life she is comfortable in, she doesn't have to work and she has her daily schedule and likes it and doing things with you seems to be an unwelcome adjustment to her schedule. It almost seems like you're a walking wallet at this point, your job isn't to have needs, your jobs, as a man, is to provide (in her eyes). To her, what are you complaining about? You're doing the role you're supposed to do, why are you bugging her with these issues/problems? You're not going to be able to solve any of this one on one. She's made it clear that she's willing to double down and use emotions to manipulate the situation. You need marriage counseling and I honestly don't even know if that will help. What was your life like before you had kids? Was it fun and free or was she always really focused on getting married and having kids quickly? I dated a woman once who told me that she couldn't wait to get married and having kids so she could stop pretending she liked having sex. It was the most terrifying thing I had ever heard from someone I was dating. To her, all the things before marriage and children was part of an act that she had to put on and once she had the security of children, she finally got to stop pretending and just do what she wanted to do and hang out with the children. Your wife doesn't seem to prioritize or care about you or your emotions and she may have never really cared about anything other than having kids and having financial security. She has all that right now and you're rocking the boat. I'm usually the type of person who likes to see everything from all sides, but your situation sounds pretty scary. Your wife doesn't seem to want to engage with you and you sound like a nuisance for being human and having needs. She wants you to just shut up, provide and leave her alone. The biggest mistake here is that you're starting with the assumption that she cares about you like you care about her. It's obvious that she doesn't, so your actions to get her to do things you like...don't really matter. She doesn't care what you like, she just wants you to allow her to keep living her life with the kids and to ask for as little as possible. I don't think you're understanding this. You're not doing anything wrong, she just doesn't care. I actually decided to be child free and part of the reason is that I didn't want to be a non-priority. I don't want to live a life where the kids and my wife take all the emotional energy and there are scraps (or nothing) left for me. It's crazy to me that this is the plight of modern men and all we get is media messaging that we're monsters. Literally walking around the world with none of our needs met, yet we provide for everyone else's needs. It's berserk.

The situation is not nearly as bad as described here. At least, I hope not. The events I mentioned where I feel taken for granted were red flags to me. They could be viewed as "little things" but they are not "little things." I don't want to be taken for granted in general. I have needs and wants as a man. I have an independent life of my own. I have worked my ass off to provide for her and my family. She has a schedule most people would absolutely love to have. I expect to be listened to, respected, and shown some appreciation without having to spell it out all of the time. I am not saying that we're there yet. I am saying I don't want it to go there after those "little things."

I'm trying to say that the situation looks pretty bad and by living it you may not be able to see it as it is. You deserve all these things mate, but your writing is saying that your wife doesn't care. None of her actions show any interest or care and she flat out revolts when you push the issue. She doesn't care what you want, she is happy with the status quo and her own problem appears to be annoyance at your demands to be loved/appreciated/recognized.

She sounds to me like someone who is struggling with the scope of her responsibilities, mixed with the realization that you could just walk away and destroy everything. She's built up a structure to protect her mental and physical state as a defense mechanism. Everything you do that challenges that terrifies her, probably at a subconscious level. I wonder if she's a little OCD. You've done the right thing so far. It may be time for couples therapy (perhaps you are subtly undermining her in ways you don't realize) or you just grin and bear it for a few years until the kids get older and stop taking up so much of her mental & emotional energy.

This really hit home for me. I do feel like she is very quick to get emotional with me if she even perceives I could be sharing my feelings that may require her to make small changes. I was concerned recently that I didn't feel the need to talk about it any more because of the way she responded. I know not talking is not the answer so I am giving it a little time before I talk about it again. The structure of her to do list and schedule is her safety net. It's familiar and it brings her peace so I want to support her to a degree, but we also have to iterate on our relationship and improve as we go to stay together IMO. I think she thinks my attempts to talk about our relationship are attempts to tell her indirectly that she's not doing something good enough. It's not that. It's that I need to communicate my wants and needs and I need her to listen.

> I think she thinks my attempts to talk about our relationship are attempts to tell her indirectly **that she's not doing something good enough. It's not that.** It's that I need to communicate my wants and needs and I need her to listen. But it is that, isn't it? She's not (willing to) listen to you enough. When you bring something up, she turns it around and makes it about her insecurity. You can acknowledge that in a gentle and reassuring way, while still being firm that you need to be able to talk about these things with her.

Insane. This woman sounds like a spoiled brat, and you’re betabucks to her. Her life is a dream. Lift heavy, improve your fitness and read some books. Id be gone more personally. She needs to realize how good has it, works out twice and takes naps and you’re doing all that housework? Id have a mistress. F this noise.

Because you behave like you don't have options. She recognizes it and thus she treats you like someone who is \*guaranteed to always be there\*. People ( especially women ) nearly universally treat those without options shittier than those with options. With time this becomes worse and worse. Start doing what you want, not what she wants. If what you want matches what she wants, great you do that. If it does not and in your view not doing what she wants will not immediately create a catastrophic situation, do what you want. There's a book by the guy who wrote "A subtle art of not giving a fuck" called "Models". You should read it. Actually, you should read both books.

I really enjoyed Models. It's a great book. I know you got downvoted, but I actually think you're on to something. I think part of the behavior is based on her thinking our relationship is so solid and comfortable that it's a guarantee. I consider myself a good looking successful guy so I have plenty of options if I wanted them. The major challenge is how does she become aware of that and aware that she needs to maintain the relationship too? How does that happen without my doing anything inappropriate outside of the marriage?

I'll venture to say most likely it is because you do everything she asks for based on the "Happy Wife, Happy Life" thing. As someone who has been in a permanent relationship with a woman for 20 years, I can tell you that the only time when our relationship was rocky was when I was more available to do everything she wanted. When due to my job I physically had no extra time and most of things she wanted were met with "No", "I will think about it", "Ok, i will do when I get around to doing it", etc she worked really hard to be accommodating, lovely, non-pushy and most amazing partner one could possibly want. If you look bad at "Models" and "Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck" you will see it fits both a standard behavior of what women want/don't want from their partners, and the standard "if you do too much for people they view what you as less valuable". So my suggestion would be to just start saying "No". Make it as simple as being the one who decides where you go out when you go out to eat. If you happen to agree, do what she wanted. If you don't, this time around stop yielding to her. Basically go back to being the guy she started dating - obviously not exactly but I bet you were much more "we are going to do things my way" than you are today. You do less, the value of things you do goes up.

> I consider myself a good looking successful guy so I have plenty of options if I wanted them. The major challenge is how does she become aware of that and aware that she needs to maintain the relationship too? So, both spouses do need to maintain the relationship, but it's way off base to try to motivate that maintenance by fear of the other one leaving. That's like the opposite of most wedding vows.

>Because you behave like you don't have options. She recognizes it and thus she treats you like someone who is *guaranteed to always be there*. People ( especially women ) nearly universally treat those without options shittier than those with options. With time this becomes worse and worse. I agree with this commenter. Women only like you if they can’t have you in every sense of the word physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually. Once they have you in their clutches whether it be a long term relationship or monogamous marriage, the fun is over. It’s just a daily grind to raise kids together if you have kids together. While women like to manipulate men in their relationships, women are the most turned on when their man is a mystery to them and when women know that their man can leave them at any time, because that’s what indicates that you’re an attractive, high value man with many options, creates an addictive adventure, and gives you leverage in the courtship. Women can publicly say all they want that they want a “nice guy” who treats them like a princess and fulfills their every need. That’s called being a white knight. If you’re a white knight, women will walk all over you, use you, abuse you, then leave you if a better man comes along that gets them turned on and so wet down there because this better man takes orders from no woman. At their core, women want a dominant alpha man who takes charge, protects and provides for her and their kids. >Start doing what you want, not what she wants. If what you want matches what she wants, great you do that. If it does not and in your view not doing what she wants will not immediately create a catastrophic situation, do what you want. Stay true to yourself as a man and stay focused on your life goals. Never change yourself to fit in with your woman or her female friends. That’s the fastest way to lose respect from them. >There's a book by the guy who wrote "A subtle art of not giving a fuck" called "Models". You should read it. Actually, you should read both books. Good reads. I also highly recommend these books.

I've read Models. I will read it again. I do agree though that men should remain a bit of a mystery or at least interesting to maintain passion in the relationship. Giving too much makes you boring. I have thought a lot about this...how do you practically stay interesting or facilitate mystery in a long term relationship or marriage with kids? I have some ideas, but as husbands and fathers, we can't just disappear for large chunks of time on a regular basis. The closest thing I can come to is having an individual life with hobbies, goals, interests that doesn't involve her. It's healthy because I am demonstrating that my happiness doesn't revolve around her. Some of the most interesting and perhaps best advice I've received is... "You're wife doesn't want to be the spark in your eye." Meaning that unconsciously it's better for the relationship if we're not putting our wives up on pedestals. We're still out there living our lives, going after goals, etc. in an individual way where you maintain an individual identity and your wife respects you and follows your lead so to speak. That's the most practical way (although vague) that I can think to maintain that mystery.

Because she’s different than you. My wife’s *tone* when she wants something done is imperial and demanding. I point out to her I want to be in a collaborative relationship with her, not obligatory. Yet it’s difficult for her to change her attitude. She loves me and I her. It’s just the tone — no doubt learned from her alcoholic father. She wants to change. So I say to her it doesn’t feel good when she orders me to do something.

Lol welcome to reality. That's why there's beer and sports on TV.

[r/TheRedPill](https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill)

3 kids in 10 years is a lot to handle. I'd say if you want to be on her priority list you better be sure she's on yours. It's not really about being even, it's about being more than that and taking your turn to carry the extra relationship needs for awhile.. I mean if you want it to work out. Married 26 years with 2 kids, stay at home mom and your story felt relatable. I work my ass off, 12 hour days sometimes, running companies. Unfortunately you don't really get credit for that part of things when it comes to emotional connection. I'm not a psychologist but I've figured out a few things - Men tend to value the hardwork and buying stuff (lingerie) as a sign of love, women tend more to focus on your interest and communication and awareness to your relationship and working toward that side of things more. While it's true without your hard work, your job and the effort you put in you wouldn't be there, but when it comes to a real connection you have to do that with intention and purpose. I think holding a marriage together through ups and downs requires a balancing act of who is willing to do more for the emotional side of the relationship even if it is unbalanced.. and then you take turns at that, which is on a different wavelength than your financial/work path. I will also add it's a common mistake to value your contribution as a reason to expect attraction, I'd even go as far to say that this mindset creates a dependency mindset that can cause your spouse to feel trapped. You're working your ass off to make money to keep family happy, but losing sight of what's necessary to maintain attraction. You can look good, be rich etc etc but that doesn't create authentic passion. Caring, listening, participating are the things that are really needed in most great relationships. In a nutshell, you have to win her heart over again - maybe it's not even your fault, but 3 kids in 10 years is going to change peoples needs and your ability to adapt to that and step in can be the magic you're looking for. Honestly I don't think you'll get what you're looking for until you realize this. For an exercise, spend a bit of time to see her effort at raising 3 kids as a stay at home mom as doing twice the work you're doing. There is a lot of sacrifice in staying at home, letting opportunity pass you by and being dependent on someone else. You may not see it that way or maybe you're not treating her that way. edit: apparently the most controversial answer - let's see which side wins. If you want to keep and improve the relationship, that's what I've provided - if you want a reason to leave, just do that. Black and white really. You can't force someone to respect you, you have to participate in the way THEY want you to or you're just wasting your time.

Your paragraph about using contributions to expect attraction is a good one. I make that mistake. What creates authentic passion in a long term relationship is a profound question. I don't have a great answer. I've read a lot of books. I've tried to contribute more. I've cared too much about the relationship. Honestly, when I am on fire for life in general, just to be me and pursue my goals, rather than being on fire so much for her is when I felt her become attracted to me more than ever. I suspect the answer lies in me backing off of the relationship efforts a bit, but still being careful to maintain a connection. I am open to any feedback about this though because it's such a profound topic. The divorce rate is 60% or something like that for a reason. We're trying to figure it out.

The secret for me is I just pretend I'm not married and wake up every morning and ask myself is this worth it? No expectations, no obligations. Either it's working or not. If it's not working I better figure out why. The less I focus on what I must have the more I get what I want.

Can you expand on this? I know I need a mindset shift. I feel I’m overly giving, overly concerned with her feelings, overly wanting sex for validation (really working on that).

Let us know how this develops. Just going off your initial post, I really don't see much of a resolution with that sense of entitlement that she has

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I do need to be more direct about how I feel, but I also don't want to be a needy husband. I don't think it's wise to share every little stressor with her. It's more of a burden and it's not attractive to women from what I can tell. At the same time, I understand what you're saying. She cannot read my mind...on the flip side I don't feel like I should have to directly ask for what I need/want if I've communicated in the past. The fact that I would need to specifically ask or spell it out everything does not indicate proactiveness. Think about it if genders were reversed...for example...if I never planned dates and my wife had to come to me and ask me to plan a date at a specific place every time. It would be much more attractive to her if I was proactive and planned the date at the specific place without her having to ask because I knew she liked going on dates to that specific place. Does that make sense?

How often do y'all fuck?

2-3 times a week. I mostly initiate.

That's a decent amount. That tells me she hasn't given up on your marriage.

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Booooooooooooooo

I didn’t read the whole thing but gonna go out on a limb from the level of investment and fixation you have on this that you care too much. Please don’t take offense as I mean none, I haven’t been married nor for that long so you know your situation better than us. I wouldn’t accept any undue stress for anyone or anything in this world. Not family, not marriage, nothing. So if you are not happy and have communicated this, then look around. Not saying get a divorce but find someone who fulfills you. Not saying cheat but make it clear this is not who I married or intend to spend the rest of my life with. From a bachelor who’s been through the dating ringer, I have all the things you do minus the kids and wife, I’d never date a woman let alone take her serious if she subtracted value from my life. Cheers.

I'll take a different approach simply based on your writing -> there's still no language of compromise and "I need vs. I want." It's really that simple. These tools are often absent with a lot of couples (maybe they didn't have experience and/or do the work and/or know it even exists because their parents/friends didn't have).. but you have to revisit the relationship and view it as a compromise/negotiation that OVERcommunicates. The words you're using to describe the why she is a certain way and how she manages her schedule and how impactful a change in that is. You've either built the case for yourself or you're trying to convince us she's in the wrong but listen: absolutely whatever \*can\* work when it's communicated and boundaries are set and then respected. You're still working with the "but listens" and comparing it to other social standards (maybe?) but if someone wants to prioritize working out 2x a day and getting a nap and that's what everybody is cool with, then awesome. Go for it. Right now is the friction because it clearly sounds like you are NOT cool with it. So go to the table. Do some work before and get your head straight, don't surprise her with a meeting of ultimatums, but teamwork and work through this (maybe with a professional) and things can improve for sure. If both parties want to see it improve then it can. I think there's room for improvement everywhere but the one that you have the most impact on is yourself. edit: as an example of shifting your thinking: "hey i have busy 2 weeks it's going to be really tough and I might not be able to message......" might be improved with "hey i have a busy 2 weeks it's going to be really tough, can we try to close out the day around 8 with a call or at least text each other ? what do you think? And I could really use some extra TLC for the moment, maybe send me some of your memes that day or a photo with the kids, maybe we can schedule an ubereats dinner together?" Be specific (and not expectant) in the negotiations with what you want. It actually helps the other person 1) decide if they can give you what you need and 2) just have a better chance at success overall.

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