Inner city baby nurse here (NICU) and former high risk labor and delivery nurse. I take care of these babies when and if bad things happen and used to take of the moms.
Let it go. She’ll never change her mind. She doesn’t work with me. Hasn’t seen what I’ve seen. She already think she knows everything and her mil does, too. Even if stuff does go wrong, and hopefully it won’t, she’ll never admit it. Ignorance is bliss.
Stay out of it. Nothing you say will make a lick of difference. (If you want proof look at my comment history when I landed on a midwifery sub.)
I second this statement. I’ve seen them come to the hospital after things went wrong at home. They refuse to name their midwife and question everything we do, often refusing treatments.
Go in the basement or sit in your car and scream it out. The results will be the same as if you argued with her.
…let’s go on over to picu and see that toddler with the bleeding into his brain cuz his parents refused vitamin k…. This happens, people. Thinks can be rare but when they go bad, they go REALLY bad. That could be why it’s recommended for every child born. I’ll never understand this line of thinking.
Sometimes I hate Hipaa. Wish we could drag these parents to these ICUs, show them these babies and let them see the consequences and the irreversible harm before somebody else gets hurt by something preventable
Right you are. Look at all the antivaxxers who came out of the woodwork during covid. They didn’t educate themselves about the immune system, antibodies, antigens, memory T and B cells. Result: millions of unnecessary infections and deaths.The ultimate irony is that they are only hurting themselves and those closest to them.
Same thing with a lot of the chronic conditions people blow off in the early stages. Come, come, let me show you this bedbound, blind, dialysis patient with no legs because they wouldn't manage their diabetes. Wanna guess how old they are? 76? No, try 51.
It’s the irony of Western medicine. People are oblivious to what can and does go wrong, specifically BECAUSE we’ve eliminated so much unnecessary suffering. They live in a made-up, blissful sanctuary created by their own ignorance.
I work in a level 4 NICU and had a baby die of DIC because the parents refused Vitamin K. Their reason: they didn't want their baby to feel pain. Like emergent PICC and intubation aren't painless. Besides, I think vaginal birth is painful for baby. Ridiculous.
I googled what DIC meant and had to read a bit to understand it, but damn, that sounds like an awful way to die. According to Dr. Google, it apparently causes uncontrollable bleeding and organ damage via poor blood flow. Each thing by itself sounds painful. I can’t imagine parents letting their innocent baby die this way :(
It is. They bleed out. Bleeding into their brain too. I’ve seen it with adults too.
It’s horrific. FYI
Mayoclinic.org is a trusted site and better than just googling
Midwives in Ontario administer vitamin K. It is a legal requirement. They also do a PKU screening test. I would assume midwives would also do this in the US, to protect the newborn.
Parents can refuse anything in the US. And they do.
Edit to add: It is illegal to intentionally home birth in my state. Lay midwives are also not allowed to practice here. Certified Nurse Midwives do not do home births because they’d lose their license.
Not sure if true but was told you can get an online doula cert to deliver in my state. Per the granola set that just did home water birth. Turned out ok.
I know the hospital saved both my babies during normal pregnancies and labor that turned into stuck babies and wrapped cords quickly. However, I do think that as the mom I wish I would just have realized they were doing nothing for me and would never have been admitted myself after the delivery. Also didn't like getting an episiotomy the second time when the fucker said I cut you on your last scar line. Hmm no you didn't cause I didn't have one. The treatment of women in delivery and after sucked 20 years ago in US. I hear it still does. So I do relate to taking matters into your own hands even tho I think demanding better care is probably the best answer. Thanks for reading my rambling.
A doula does NOT deliver babies. A doula is a person who assists the mother with comfort, natural pain relief, helping the mother to be in control. They do not take the role of a midwife or doctor. They are not trained to deliver babies.
I had a skilled midwife (Texas) that administered Vit K, and did all the screenings.
Admittedly, the electorate - I mean, medical consumer - is now living in a post-fact world.
… women still hemorrhage to death in maternity wards, though, because hospitals act as though there’s only one patient: the neonate.
California reversed their maternal mortality rate by simply weighing the pads postpartum women are placed on to monitor blood loss.
[Here’s one article on the problem](https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/6/29/15830970/women-health-care-maternal-mortality-rate)
So on one hand, I can sympathize with women who are wary of how births are handled in general, and especially if they live where their medical choices are limited - where’s there’s no second choice OB or hospital, or their insurance won’t cover a change.
On the other, I’m also well aware that every pregnancy is a risk to every woman! I want women to be treated as the primary patient everywhere, have their concerns taken seriously, and live through pregnancy, childbirth and beyond. I’m loathe to force medical treatment on anyone … the solution seems to be to improve medicine, not force compliance.
My sister had her last kid at 38. She barely went to the doctor. She insisted she wanted a home birth with just her husband to catch the baby. She also had placenta previa. Did that stop her from thinking she could still do it? Nope. Right up until she went to her last appointment where they sent her for an ultrasound because the baby hadn’t turned, and they told her she’d need a c-section or neither of them would survive, she still insisted she was gonna give it a try because, after all, “we can just go to the hospital if something happens”.
This woman watched me lose a child in infancy, and something in her head made her think that’s an enviable situation. She’d “promise god” he could take one of her kids and she’d be ok with it because it was some divine plan. She’d said this *after* going to my 5 month old daughter’s funeral.
Some people just have zero critical thinking, zero empathy, and zero brain cells.
My former friend was told that her amniotic fluid was almost gone and that she should have an emergency C-section the very next morning. It was the day before Thanksgiving, she had a houseful of people from out of town, and had already bought food. She didn't want to let family down by not hosting Thanksgiving, she didn't want a house full of people there when she came home with an infant, and she wanted to have a natural birth because she would feel it like a failure if she had a C-section. She also expressed concerns about a scar. I told her all of these things were secondary to the health of her baby, and that her doctor would not willingly give up Thanksgiving holidays if this weren't very, very important.
She went ahead and hosted Thanksgiving. Three days later went into labor and her baby died because the umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck in the low fluid. My friend had the nerve to sue the doctor and the hospital for not telling her this could happen.
Jesus. That seems like willful ignorance. Or maybe pathological stubbornness.
I am terribly sorry about your daughter’s death. How gut-wrenching. And then seeing your sister purposefully thumbing her nose at sensible medical care and YOUR real life experience — that just blows my mind.
I visited one of those babies in the hospital. The seizures are now rare, but not so rare that she can ever get a drivers license. It was firemen who kept her sort-of alive long enough to get her to physicians. Mom was 23, in perfect health and had an easy pregnancy --until delivery.
It was after that that I realized how unfair it is that the person who is most vulnerable in this situation does not get to determine the course of action.
Strange that people who would likely not hesitate to sue the obstetrician and everyone else in the delivery room if things aren’t optimal when their child is born, won’t name the midwife whose skill was far surpassed by the dangers of childbirth. I worked with a guy whose wife died in childbirth because she hemorrhaged in a hospital’s delivery room. It happens in the best possible scenarios; imagine what can happen when you try to give birth like it’s 1700!
I worked L&D for a while, this is right on target. Absolutely nothing you can do because whatever it is you’re just “feeding into big pharma” or some such nonsense. She’s a big girl unfortunately and I hope she doesn’t regret this decision because if she does it will be for the rest of her life (if she gets much more). I’m sorry 😢
I would still like to know where all my kickbacks from Big Pharma are. I have two kids in college who could use the money😉
I can understand being angry about drug prices. I’m a patient, too. But find the middle ground, people.
Big pharma and then:
1) Global Wellness Market: Valued at around $4.5 trillion.
2) Alternative Medicine Market: Expected to reach $296.3 billion by 2027.
3) Organic Food and Beverage Market: Projected to reach $620.0 billion by 2024.
I started out like this with a midwife with one of my older children in my first marriage. Fortunately everything went ok... then I got married to a man of science and he was like, "Not my kids! You will get a doctor and--" you get the idea.
Things were fine several times and I was like, "Thpppt! See? All that wasted money!"
Then I was in labor at a hospital as I had been many times and oh sh-- things went bad fast. It has been over 20 years and I still cannot process all that happened in an instant. I was in the OR and a mask was over my face and I woke up a little while later.
Thank goodness Mr. Baby was ok, but they said his BP had dropped and something was wrong with me and the placenta and they told me all that went down in about five minutes. I remembered my "earthy birthy" with the elder sibling and asked, "What would have happened if this had happened at the midwife's clinic?" The nurse said that things wouldn't have been as good, "Just thank God it didn't happen that way!" I still can't believe I put my infants at risk in the first place.
I don't understand why people are willing to put themselves and their infants at risk when they don't have to.
Thank you for this. This is exactly my point. It sounds like maybe you abrupted. (Although Could’ve been something else).
As you know now, when things go bad, they go bad very fast and you need the right people to be there in a minute. When codes get called in hospitals we run. (Codes called = People who can resuscitate your baby and possibly you). Five minutes is too long. When the baby’s heart rate is down like that, they are going without oxygen (or not nearly enough). So imagine it like this - what if someone was choking you around your neck, or imagine for whatever reason you cannot breathe at all - now imagine that’s your baby, and you’re at home. Or you’re at a free standing birth center. Calling 911 is not as fast as you think.
A midwife who has oxygen with her is still not nearly as good or as fast and efficient as a team of people who can do full NRP- resuscitate your baby, put in Umbi lines, give epi, intubate, etc. At most the midwife will bag your baby while she waits for the ambulance. These minutes are precious for your baby’s brain and health.
I haven't read your comment history, but just wanted to add that when someone does utilize midwifery, there is prenatal care. My prenatal visits were more thorough with a skilled midwife than they were with an experienced ob/gyn.
My midwife emphasized a healthy pregnancy like appropriate exercise, and a healthy diet based on super foods with enough protein (65g/day, iir) to support a growing baby and brain, iron, and folic acid. Whereas with my ob/gyn, the extent of his advice was to "snack on rice cakes." 🤦♀️
But for OPs niece, it just sounds like she's winging it.
OP, I'm sorry you're in this position. In talking with other women, I have learned that often pregnancies and births may have similarities within families. I learned from my mom that I was born two weeks late, and then my own daughter was born two weeks late. I was born with "wet lungs," and my son was born with wet lungs. It can be difficult to watch this from the sidelines
>My midwife emphasized a healthy pregnancy like appropriate exercise, and a healthy diet based on super foods with enough protein (65g/day, iir) to support a growing baby and brain, iron, and folic acid. Whereas with my ob/gyn, the extent of his advice was to "snack on rice cakes." 🤦♀️
I just want to say that my baby was built with pizza, chicken nuggets, and sour patch kids (the latter, I'd never eaten before in my life before I was pregnant). She's 2.5 years old, scary smart, and her butt is so small we still buy her 18 month pants. 2T pants fall off of her. I left the hospital weighing exactly what I weighed when I got pregnant, though the distribution changed to some extent.
Sometimes rice cakes are the only thing you can keep down.
I’m curious what midwives in the states do? Where I am, they work with an OBGYN or hand you off to one if there are any complications. Mine had zero issue with epidurals or anything medical.
There is a difference between Certified Nurse Midwives and lay midwives. CNMs are educated and licensed, they carry liability insurance, and they are held to standards of practice. They are medical professionals.
Anyone can call themselves a lay midwife. It's meaningless. Lay midwives aren't licensed to do anything, and if they get caught acting in a medical capacity, they can be charged with practicing medicine without a license.
I know a couple that hired a lay midwife for a home birth. I don't know what her background or experience was, but she didn't know the baby was breech until he was in the birth canal coming out. It took an ambulance and a helicopter to save them, and thankfully they're okay today, but it was a near thing.
The best description I've had of lay midwives is "the old lady in the village that delivers all the babies." That is basically the extent of their experience. The Duggars are a great example of people who use lay midwives and why it's not always a great idea.
There are also licensed midwives, though I don’t know if they exist in all states. I had an LM who works with an OB/GYN, and if anything goes amiss during pregnancy, to the doctor you go. My daughter was born at home.
My youngest was born 13 weeks early, so I've been through that. Pre-natal care helped immensely getting to a point where things weren't great, but they sure weren't dire. Awesome NICU staff took over at that point.
This nonsense needs to stop. The ignoring and letting it go is how this shit spreads. We're trying to build an advanced society here and confronting this bs is paramount. Talk to her calmly and rationally, but don't give up.
Part of being an advanced society is allowing others to have their beliefs and opinions even when we disagree. I'm sure she's already tried that route.
If they were suicidal would you leave them to their beliefs? Christian scientists who refuse to treat their children? These are harmful beliefs that have consequences not only for themselves but society as a whole. We have responsibilities. People do change their minds.
Thank you for all that you do. It's nurses like you that take on so much, and see such tragedies. I'm praying for your peace and healing.
~ former hospital consultant (patient safety)
Here's what happened to me. I did have all the pre-natal care. I had an drug free all natural vaginal birth without any interventions and as my precious 9 pound boy was placed in my arms I began to bleed out. Without skipping a beat, the nurse administered pitocin in my arm and wallah! Death averted. Had I birthed at home with a midwife I would have bled to death.
My oldest had an extremely traumatic birth and spent several days in critical condition. She was in the NICU for a month. Thanks to being in a hospital where everyone could swarm in to respond to the code when she was born, she lived. Thanks to neonatal therapeutic hypothermia, she didn’t suffer brain damage and is a thriving preteen.
I can’t listen when people talk about giving birth at home. It gives me panic attacks. I’m right back in that delivery room where my unborn baby was perfectly fine…until she wasn’t. I’ve lost the illusion that childbirth is always safe, and there’s no getting it back.
FYI: If a woman gives birth (in the US) who hasn't had prenatal care, the birthing hospital will generally per protocol test the new baby for drugs. Because, for obvious reasons, a lot of drug addicted moms don't get prenatal care.
That won’t happen if they give birth through a midwife at home or do an insane “free birth.” That’s also why they do it. (But I agree with you. No PNC is a huge 🚩
and incredibly ignorant)
i live in the south and i can say at home births is hardly a thing here. the only time I've personally ever heard of someone doing that here is when it's someone who moves here from the midwest 🙄
but avoiding prenatal care here is common, especially because docs treat you like a drug addict even when you're not one
They may choose to give birth st home. I don't know what protocols are in place for that. Someone "in charge" has to verify a live birth, with details, for birth certificate, so I don't know if they could push thst, but thsts a good thought.
I’d be shocked if a registered midwife delivered a baby without having provided previous prenatal care. I suppose in an emergency like a hurricane or something. This sounds like a planned home birth.
I had homebirths but I also had labs done. Many places you can order your own lab work i.e. CBC, hgb/hct. They should be measuring her fundal height each month and monitoring baby’s heart rate and mom’s blood pressure each month.
Also monitoring blood sugars. Modern midwifery has many more tools at their disposal than they did even fifty years ago. Many have portable ultrasound devices, a full set of obstetrical tools, oxygen, sphygmomanometer, to measure blood pressure and medications to stabilize a woman if she requires transport due to complications.
Most complications are detected prior to birth, and care transferred to an Obstetrician. Many OB’s work as colleagues with midwives. The vast majority of babies in the UK are delivered by a midwife with the majority of the prenatal care also being provided by midwives.
It's more than labs, critical things like proper amounts of fluid in uterus or uterine issues can't be determined without imaging...factually seeing breech before birth, etc to avoid testing in addition to prenatal care is bad...it would be nice to know if a baby needs to come out early from not enough fluid rather than health/brain damage waiting, it's the ignorance of that mindset that turns people off. Ignorance is not bliss, in some things it's steaight up stupid to deny yourself knowledge to just want to have your way. I hope all goes well & Im sorry that hope isn't sufficient -that planning would be recommended & can't plan for somethings without knowledge. Im sorry for your loss. Not having any children does not make you less competent at knowing best protocol ..."winging" AND not having a doctor/hospital is probably the very worst no plan-plan imho.
>don't know what protocols are in place for that.
In some places the only protocol is that Certified Midwifes (the ones with actual training) are legally prohibited from attending these births.
>Someone "in charge" has to verify a live birth, with details, for birth certificate
Nope. Parents who home birth can fill out the birth certificate information all on their own. But most of these don't get their baby a birth certificate or SSN because being a sovereign citizen goes hand in hand with Free Birthing (and even those who aren't officially sovereign citizens may not see the value of this paperwork or are just lazy).
I live in Florida & they tested me for all drugs before I gave birth and they tested my baby afterwards. Didn’t ask, didn’t consent, they just did it. I saw it on my patient portal & was like wth lol I also saw the doctor 1-2 times a week from 20-36 weeks pregnant… I’m not mad about getting tested, because I obviously had nothing to hide. I think they should test every mother & baby.
You have to stay out of it. They have weighed up the options and made an informed choice.
It's the wrong choice in my opinion. But I live somewhere where treatment is free so maybe it's a financial thing?
Is it truly NO prenatal care, or is it that she’s receiving prenatal care from her midwife MIL? Homebirth midwives provide prenatal care, and will refer patients to clinics/hospitals/other care providers if needed.
This was my question as well. I had a homebirth and absolutely received prenatal care from my midwife. Not the same level of monitoring and tests as I did with my second child, but she was measuring me, weighing me, feeling the position of the baby, etc.
If she’s actually a licensed homebirth midwife and not just saying she is. There’s a huge difference. But honestly it’s a moot point because it’s not something anyone can do anything about.
Homebirth midwifery is illegal in many US states because it's very high risk. Also, many homebirth midwives really don't refer out, even when they know they should, and many families have suffered the worst outcomes because of it.
All you can do is support her.
I had a friend that went the natural route with her first baby. Allll the way to having the birth in a cabin. Problems started when the new mom to be went two weeks past her due date. And then three weeks. Midwife had her go to the cabin and broke her water at that point. Friend ended up in the ER with a REALLY bad tear and needing blood transfusions. Kid is ok.
Then she decided to try for another kid the same way!!!! The second child has several developmental delays.
Everyone gets the choice of how they want to give birth. I could have argued with my obg and insisted on a vaginal birth, even after being told I had a fibroid sitting on my cervix that would be a problem. But luckily I had never planned on doing that and had somehow known it was going to be a c section
Most likely *preventable* developmental delays -
Delays which would not have happened had they given birth in a hospital, or a birth Center connected to a hospital, so that when the baby is monitored and shows signs of lack of oxygen, the NICU team is alerted and gets there asap to save the baby and mom.
Perfect example of harm being done the first time and mom still not learning that lesson, and then doing it all over again.
Denial is strong. Ignorance is bliss.
I don't think you can do anything at this point, but be glad that her MIL has some relevant experience, and, we hope, will be able to recognize it if things get so bad she needs an ambulance. But, truthfully, odds are good that everything will be fine. Better to maintain a relationship with her in case down the road she needs to escape this cultish family.
The two main things that can be dangerous is not being monitored for gestational diabetes and the baby ending up in distress during birth. Also, my best friend almost bled out after giving birth and they didn't notice... This was after she was back in a normal room and started to hemorrhage and soaked the whole bed in blood.
Statistically, there are not many problems crop up during childbirth but, when there is, it can be deadly for either the mother, child, or both. Some Christian Science midwife bitch isn't going to be able to deal with some of them either. Prenatal checks are usually the best way to go, even if using a midwife. There are real midwives, and then there are homoeopathic twats that call themselves midwives. It's one thing for an adult to be stupid, not go to doctors, and take the risks for not doing so, and another thing to endanger an unborn or new born (or any age child for that matter) because of their braindead bullshit.
I don't disagree. I am all in favor of prenatal care. But someone trained as an EMT as well as a midwife probably has some ability to recognize a crisis. And, most importantly, since the OP isn't in control of this decision, it's more important that she remain available.
I gave birth three times (all in the hospital, once with OB, twice with midwives). You can buy test strips to check urine for glucose. My second and third I didn't have the "orange drink" diabetes test because it made me so sick the first time around. I eat well, am normal to low weight and had no risk factors. All three were born perfectly healthy, no signs of GD (never spilled sugars into my urine, did weekly urine tests, all three were within 3 oz above/below 8 pounds).
I have friends who have done "free births" and that does not appeal to me AT ALL. I bled a lot after our third and needed immediately attention from my midwives to get things slowed down. Our kiddos also had the risk of ABO incompatibility. Pretty sure eldest had it with OB... But OB care also missed severe anemia. They also forced a lot of unnecessary ultrasounds and told me to expect a 5 pound baby because I was so tiny. I just hide them well... Which I explained to my midwives. Even they had me do one extra ultrasound because I had fallen off growth charts. At 40 weeks I measured 32 weeks but still had 8 pounders.
I'd say you need to stay out of it, except *maybe* ask..."Just to reassure me...what your the back up plan? Which ER would you head to if there are problems?" and then offer find someone on standby to drive them if needed.
That’s smart and maybe say something like “I want you to do whatever you feel is best for you and the baby. But just for my peace of mind, please make sure to run through some scenarios ahead of time so you’re not making tough decisions while in labor”
I’d also want to urge the mother to be to make sure her plans are known to all of her in laws ahead of time, and be assured they’ll listen to her if she feels they need to call 911.
She is not making a good choice, but there is nothing you can do about it. I realize this must be frustrating, but I would take a big step back and let things play out on their own. Not your circus . . . not your monkeys.
I understand your concern for her and not wanting her to endure the same pain as you have. However, you have probably already said enough. She has made her decisions and will have to live with the consequences. I wish the best possible outcome for her and your family.
Ask her if her natural supplements include folate Without sufficient folic folate the baby’s neural tube may not properly form into the brain and spine; it may not close properly.
Edit: folate (not folic acid)!
My dad was a doctor and my son was in the emergency room and they wanted to transport him to another hospital that could handle a small child and give him the medicine he needed. They wanted to take him in an ambulance. I asked my dad shouldn't I take him in my car and save the money an ambulance would cost? My son was awake and ok just needed something within 24 hours. My father said, "and if something bad happened on the way you would wish you had the EMT's and an ambulance with all the equipment."
I feel this is the same. If the baby has any issues at birth, you would want to know you did the best possible for that child, in my opinion.
My first child was a super normal pregnancy. Everything went as planned. Until it didn’t. I had to be put under anesthesia while they delivered her. Then she was life flighted to a hospital where she stayed for a month. Things and go south very very quickly and I was very lucky to be surrounded by professionals.
Not being a wise-ass here. Encourage her to make sure her will, and all powers-of-attorney, are up-to-date and accessible.
It sounds like that's about all you can do.
Edit for clarity.
Honestly how all parenting comments are...I may disagree heavily but unless you're willing to call and report abuse (which will get logged and do nothing), there's little else you can do without legal recourse.
Fwiw, i was very into the granola, anti medicine, and anti vaccine etc lifestyle when i had my son 15 months ago. I ate my placenta! I was going to give birth at a birthing center and when i went 11 days past due, they did an ultrasound to check on things. They found that my amniotic fluid was extremely low and recommended i go to the hospital to be induced immediately. My induction went well, the hospital had all the same tools as the birthing center (to my surprise), and when my baby was born he was mildly jaundiced. They had me pumping nonstop to flush his system with breast milk and get past the colostrum quickly. He didn’t have any long term effects or have to go to the nicu thank goodness. All that is to say, thank goodness for modern medical help. I didn’t hemorrhage, or need a c-section or anything more serious but i could’ve died in childbirth and my baby could’ve died shortly after if we had given birth at the birth center as planned. All of the risks we faced were undetectable to the naked eye. Tell her don’t let her fear distort her thinking. There are risks on both sides. Particularly 300% increased risk of maternal death with home birth and 4x risk to the baby.
You don't. She is aware of what's out there and the family history, she's an adult woman making her own decisions. Hopefully she is young enough that her general health is good and depending on what the family history is, perhaps a lower risk of complications.
At the end of the day, after sharing your concerns, there is nothing more you can do and if you continue pushing, you may find yourself persona non grata.
Is her mother a registered midwife? Where did she train? What equipment does she have? For example, I was a clinic administrator for a group of midwives who practiced in Ontario. They all had to have a prior learning assessment to bring their training up to Ontario standards.
Some had practiced in the UK, some had been trained in Mexico, and finally some had come through Ontario’s midwifery school program.
They carried oxygen for both mother and infant, blood pressure reading equipment, portable ultrasound devices, a number of medications for emergencies such as epinephrine. They had quite a bit of other equipment also. They were all trained in emergency care and when to transfer care.
Because they were all specialists in normal birth, they were very good at detecting abnormal pregnancy and birth situations.
Home birth is a proven and safe alternative to hospital birth when prenatal care has been given by qualified midwives and when delivery is with qualified midwives. Birth is a normal process.
Obstetricians are trained in abnormal birth. This can sometimes cause them to routinely use procedures that can, in fact, endanger the fetus and the mother. The most common example would be inducing a woman into labour before she is ready to deliver. This often results in fetal distress and an emergency cesarean section.
Don’t feel silly. You care about your niece. Active Birth, by Janet Balaskas was a book often recommended to clients by the midwives whom I worked for. It might be a thoughtful gift for your niece to show your support.
It wouldn’t hurt to ask what plan her midwives have should the birth fail to progress normally. As the midwives at our clinic always said to clients, in the end, it’s not how or where you gave birth that matters; but that you have a healthy mother and baby. That is the priority.
I understand your frustration. It is difficult to watch others take unnecessary risks.
However, this is her body, her baby, her future, and her risk. She has made her decision.
You have said all you can. It is time to bow out, and observe the results.
there's an old saying, 'you can try to teach a pig to sing, but really you'll only frustrate yourself and annoy the pig' (that was the saying, i'm not calling anyone names)
I honestly think that you've said your piece and if you continue to try to "change her mind", she will find it less than supportive. It's her pregnancy and you have very little say in it. If you want to be on good terms with her, back off and truly be "supportive".
I remember thinking some things like this when I was pregnant. A friend of a friend of mine was a neonatal nurse. He took me aside and said “YOUR BABY WILL DIE AND SO WILL YOU.”
Because he and I weren’t really friends and he was a nurse, it shocked me. I stopped all my “natural” thoughts. Good thing too, I needed an emergency c-section and one or both of us may have died.
Find someone outside the family who has experience to tell her.
These responses are hilarious. You all know that prenatal vitamins aren't necessary to have a healthy baby, right?!! You can actually get everything you need from a healthy diet.
Midwives provide prenatal care, and are usually MORE involved than an OB.
Studies suggest that low-risk mothers have less complications when they give birth out of the hospital setting, and babies are at no greater risk.
My sister almost bled out IN THE HOSPITAL after her first birth. Second baby she had at a birth center and the midwife was able to stop and control the bleeding much more quickly and with less drama than the hospital.
My fourth baby needed oxygen and a few other interventions after birth, all of which my midwife was able to provide, and we avoided the stress and trauma of the NICU, which almost certainly would have happened in the hospital setting. I was so grateful to be able to take my baby home from the birth center, knowing that she was available if we needed more help, instead of having to visit my baby in the NiCU, on antibiotics, etc.
It actually sounds like MIL is trained as a midwife and could handle it and they can go to the hospital if something happens. She has a point, women have been having babies naturally for years
And dying just as naturally. Childbirth used to be a leading cause of death for women but much like childhood diseases we tend to forget that. However it is up to the mom so moot point.
The pregnancy problems in your family are not necessarily hereditary. Give her the benefit of the doubt that she is taking the best possible care of herself, offer to help if she needs something like prenatal vitamins, be supportive of their journey as much as your able. And may I suggest you go read the book “Birth: The Surprising History of How we Are Born” by Tina Cassidy. Please don’t have your niece read it pregnant, too many horror stories for someone with pregnancy hormones imo. But very interesting and it might help you feel compassion for your niece’s decision. She needs support right now, not opinions she hasn’t asked for. Congrats on the new addition to your family. I hope the birth goes well and no back up plan is needed.
You do nothing actually. She is an adult who is pregnant. She is making what feels to her an informed decision with her in-law midwife. It sucks for you, because you are going to be anxious through her pregnancy, but you really have no leg to stand on. It's her body, her choice. Try to be positive if you can and if it goes belly up don't scold her, just support her.
I’m older and a mom of four (birthed with prenatal care and hospital births) and I think prenatal care isn’t really necessary if you are healthy and know what the problems are. Your body does all the work. Most well visits are just to make sure everything is progressing but the truth is they really can’t do anything if there is a problem with the baby. If her mom is a midwife, I think she’s in good hands and knows what the problems are. Birthing has become so medicalized and it really doesn’t need to be. I would relax and enjoy your soon to be grand nephew or niece. You can tell her your opinion but you don’t have the final say and shouldn’t nag. Good luck.
38 no kids of my own but very close to my 6 yr old niece. I’m with the other women that say stay out of it and just be there for her if and when she needs you. Arguing with her will just push her away and that’s the last thing you want. 💕
One of my best friends went the birthing center route. She was in labor for three days and eventually had to get rushed to the hospital to deliver anyway. Now she takes care of an adult child with serious health issues. He’s 24 and will always need a caregiver. Once a woman goes into labor, that baby needs to be delivered in 24 hours.
Any reputable bc with CNMs would not have let her labor for so long. I was in labor for about 20 hours and my CNM told me we were in good shape, but if things went too much longer w out progression we’d need to get a transport. Too many people don’t do their due diligence when seeking care and then people are so quick to jump on the anti midwife bandwagon when things go wrong.
It's not your place. Support her through her pregnancy is all you can do. Every women has the right to choose a treatment plan that best suits them whether we agree or not.
The CPS thing is wrong. 🇺🇸 Prenatal care is before the child is born . That’s why you can see a pregnant woman in a bar , drinking alcohol And you can’t do anything about it
Experience- many years of CPS investigations
She's 22, so at least she has that going for her. You have warned her. You've done your part. You've done your job. Don't waste your energy - enjoy your life - don't make her problem your problem. Let it go. Set boundaries hard and fast if things go poorly and as a result they ask for your time or money. There are right and wrong ways to do things and you don't have to support people who blatantly choose to do the wrong things.
Let’s look at things that can be prevented by proper prenatal care, for instance, using prenatal vitamins: It's not known what causes spina bifida, but a lack of folic acid before and in the early stages of pregnancy is a significant risk factor.
Infections the mom can get if not vaccinated that cause birth defects: The most widely accepted infectious teratogens are known as TORCH infections. If a woman is infected prenatally, perinatally, peripartum, or even postnatally, these pathogens are known to cause congenital birth defects. Teratogenic agents include infectious agents (rubella, cytomegalovirus, varicella, herpes simplex, toxoplasma, syphilis, etc.); physical agents (ionizing agents, hyperthermia); maternal health factors (diabetes, maternal PKU.
It’s like people who say they survived growing up without seatbelts, because nobody who didn’t survive is around to comment. Why would you not take advantage of advances in medical care?
I think you express it once with love and caring, and then let it go and tend to your feelings about it. Because you can’t make her understand the risks or facts if she doesn’t want to. You try your best and share what you know and are comfortable sharing about said facts and/or lived experience, and then the real work is accepting that even young adults that we love get to make their own choices about their own bodies and lives-including dangerous ones that seem unfair.
To be clear: I don’t agree with her choice either. My comment is about you, OP, and you’re question of how to get through to her…because that might be impossible, and definitely isn’t your responsibility. I know you love and care about her, and it will probably be easier and better for you and on your relationship with her if you aren’t holding pressure to get her to see the light.
I’ve had 3 babies at home w midwives with no interventions, and minimal prenatal care…. All 3 healthy, happy, smart and thriving. She will be fine. As long as she has family that believes in her and their way of living. Just back off no one needs your negative vibes.
I was shocked when I ran into an account on Instagram of a woman like this who lost her baby during childbirth to what would have been avoidable circumstances. She literally started immediately posting things like ‘He wasn’t meant for this world’ and ‘God needed him more than I did’.
These folks aren’t really operating from reality.
She is an adult making her own decisions in a situation whose outcome does not affect you. I, like you, feel it's a foolish decision but it's none of my business.
I hear your concerns based on your experience and family history, but it is her pregnancy journey and her body. I'd maybe think instead, how can I better support her on this journey? Maybe gifting her some books on natural and home pregnancy. At most, you could gently share your concerns, but I'd try to experiment with what it is like to trust the process along with her.
This is entirely up to your niece in how to handle her pregnancy. Just say prayers that all will go well. Infusing your doubt verbally during this time is not beneficial to her. You're not in control.
That puts you to the level of risk pregnancy had prior to modern medicine. In my own situation, my pelvic arch could only fit a small (5 lb. or less) baby so I had to have a caesarean, I went through labor and was 10 cm dilated for 6 hours before the procedure, and my son's feet were still snugly under my ribs when they pulled him out, one of the main memories I have of my procedure. What does a midwife do in that case, break the bones? What if the cord is around the baby's neck? Breech births can be fraught with problems. I wanted to have a natural childbirth, but I was told about my pelvic arch in advance so I tried it in a birthing room in the hospital.
I can honestly say that the one liberating thing Ive learned by "being older" is - You cant make people do what they don't want to do & trying just isn't worth the stress/ aggravation /sadness / bewilderment etc etc etc.
Agree to disagree and let the chips fall where they may. Of course there are nuances and you learn to recognize those with experience as well. But in this case, this is where you just watch and be supportive when and if its needed. (I hope nothing goes wrong too)
I have 7 grandchildren who were birthed at home via midwife. A couple of them had no prenatal care. All are very healthy children ages 5 mo to 13. The 2 midwives who oversaw the births had a doctor on call in case of emergency.
You ask "How do I express to her how important it is that she get prenatal care?!" but it sounds like you have already expressed this to her, and she has responded with "no thank you." Give up. She's made up her mind and it's her pregnancy to run as she chooses.
Unless her refusal has to do with lack of funds and you're willing to pay, all you can do is offer your kind opinion, let it go, and hope for the best.
32.9 women in the United States die for every one-hundred thousand births. Prenatal care has helped lower the risk but can't eliminate the risk entirely. How does she feel about leaving her child an orphan? Or worse, in my opinion, having to watch someone else raise her child because she is too disabled to be a good mom?
As others have said you are not wrong, but it is a fight you can't win. You have expressed your opinion you can only hope it turns out well.
Sorry there is really nothing better for you
I have two kids and my blood type is Rh positive. I had to have a shot for the Rh factor during the pregnancy. It doesn't necessarily affect you during your first pregnancy, but is definitely almost fatal during the second pregnancy.
So, the blood type Rh factor is important to get tested for.
I understand the frustration when watching family do things that seem risky to me. I can tell how much you care about your niece. That's very kind. Letting go and getting other people make choices I don't agree with has been one of my particular crosses to bear.
A lot of people are saying to sort of wash your hands, and that is also my general MO.
HOWEVER this is not about you or your niece, it’s about the health and safety of her child.
I say give it one more go with your niece. Sit down alone with her, make sure she feels heard and understood.
Then call her attention to her baby, which did not ask to be conceived and to whom she owes the best situation available.
If she can’t hear that, she is fully responsible for what happens, you did your best.
Also what if the baby has deformities, a disability or a genetic problem. Before anyone goes barking at me, care for a disabled child and the family is an absolute joke in this country. Families in the disabled community are mentally and financially drowning. Maybe that’ll wake her up?
You've made your points already. Not knowing the type of midwife and experience level, I'd maybe just ask what her plan is for IF things go wrong? Stress that you think everything will be good, but that to reduce stress and panic, there should be a list of emergency criteria and a plan.
A friend just did this today. She had a list of several criteria that would result in the drive to the hospital.
It’s not your business. Did she ask you? She did not. Stay out of it.
Source: I’m a certified old person who also had zero interest in the often-expressed opinions of my MIL…and has successfully birthed and raised some wonderful kids.
My daughter in law was semi this way. She did see a person not doctor. She had a at home birth . was very long too long . midwives whispering finally told daughter in law to go to hospital baby in distress. tells me and her mom don’t tell anyone about who they are. litterally ran Turns out they were not licensed in my state possibly any state. My grandson didn’t make it . He died . I never blamed or said anything to her. No point. She knew. Next baby she had in hospital.
ironically my other daughter in law is a neonatologist. But in another state. She had plenty to say.
I don’t know if this will offend you. But I will pray for the baby. What she ,my son and grandparents went through was horrible.
idk what you can do, but if you can get her to take pre-natal vitamins if she's open to the idea, or get her foods with folate (folic acid) into her diet.
Spina Bifida is a condition where the spinal cord is exposed and the nerves die, leading to all kinds of disability depending on where the spinal cord stops developing properly. Folate (folic acid) in prenatal vitamins can nearly 100% prevent that condition.
I had a "natural"-based friend who did not take her prenatal vitamins and her daughter had this condition, has never walked correctly her whole life. She gets around good enough, the severity of her disability was considered mild, but her legs will always be weak and she never played any sports. Her mother taking a pre-natal vitamin a couple times a day would have (nearly) 100% prevented this.
OP, your thinking is rational. I don't have any specific advice on how to talk to your niece but I wanted you to know that because you doubted yourself b/c you don't have kids. Prenatal care is very important (mom of several kids).
Let her know that you are available to talk or to help her if she wants or needs your support, even if it's just prenatal vitamins. There's nothing more you can do.
Women have died in childbirth for thousands of years.
Child birth is a risky business. I know.
She’s too stubborn to listen to reason so all you can do is wait and watch. I’m very sorry.
What does she think prenatal care is about? I had a natural homebirth with my second child. But I still had prenatal care and had midwide care at the birth. I doubt anything you say will convince her, but prenatal care can help to spot problems that are easy (or complicated) to fix, but can be fatal if not fixed. A simple ultrasound can tell you if the baby is simply viable or not. A good friend of mine had a pregnancy where things seemed normal and she went in for her 20 week scan and was told the baby was missing part of his brain, had no esophagus, his stomach wasn't forming, lungs weren't forming. She was heart broken, but at least found out and could make some decisions. You can find out vital info like placenta placement. Placenta previa requires a c-section and it's not something to mess around with.
If her MIL has midwife training I would argue that she is getting prenatal care. I personally chose to see MDs but your niece is correct that midwives delivered babies for thousands of years. Not the best possible level of care in my opinion, but far from getting no prenatal care.
Ignorance and certainty are such a very painful combo. As much as you want to help, people that have been greenwashed are nearly impossible to get through to. Whats sad is that either she will learn a very painful lesson, or everything will go fine and she’ll double down on the next pregnancy.
I also had complicated pregnancies. The pressure do things ‘all natural’ is very real. I never got the opportunity as all my pregnancies were high risk.
At the least she should be getting checks and ultrasounds. Complications can be found with these so she would know in advance if there could be trouble.
Before all these tests women and babies were at high risk of death. Why would anyone risk it? I don’t know how you could convince her and it probably depends on how close you are whether you should keep dropping hints to her or not but if you feel strongly about it, keep trying. Lives are at risk.
You won’t convince her of anything by insulting her or her family’s views and experiences.
I realize there is a bias on Reddit but life is not neatly divided between those who do it right and those who don’t. This comment thread will surely be a diatribe of how stupid your niece is and how the commenter knows how bad it can be. However the reality is something much more complex and individual. Your niece sounds like she has an excellent, and intelligent support system but doesn’t quite see things from your point of view. Your experience is likely coloring your perspective.
Yes, women have been having babies since forever and the vast majority are just fine … your niece will likely be one more.
The rare concerns and complications happen … what is your goal? Do you expect her to abandon her views and go completely to what you would’ve been comfortable with? Pretty sure that wouldn’t work.
Try explaining your concerns, listening to hers with an open mind and find a place where you both agree that under certain circumstances of course she would call in the Calvary.
I know of midwives, doulas and just more hands off OB’s that educate parents on signs and red flags yet still facilitate the kind of birthing experience those families prefer. They respect their patients and realize a one size fits all approach won’t work.
The argument that only full stop invasive,in hospital OB plans result in healthy babies is preposterous- the NICU’s are full of babies whose parents followed every Dr recommended appt, shot and vitamin.
If mil is a midwife, she *is* getting prenatal care. This is not your business. Just because other women had problems doesn't mean she will and you don't know all the details of her life. She may have a plan you haven't seen.
I agree with you. However; it's her baby, and her life. You can't convince her of anything, because it seems that she has her mind made up and people supporting her in her decision.
Honestly, the MOST annoying thing as a prospective parent or parent is having others tell you what you should do.
She already told you she has considered what you said and she has a properly trained support team. Why do you keep insisting?
The same way you re giving this advice someone else is telling them it should be under water and another in he middle of he forest while others are telling he she should definitively need to have a C section.
Honestly, stop bugging her.
I draw a line at vaccines, though because crazy antivaxer a are putting others at risk, not just their child, bit that's another topic.
With a family history of complicated pregnancies, she should have a back up plan at the very least.
Unfortunately, it looks like she made up her mind.
Be there for support and hope everything goes right.
Going against her will cause some strain.
Pre-natal care only became a 'thing' within the past 100 years or so. Somehow, we still managed to pro-create and grow our population before that. Granted, infant mortality was also much higher then... but, historically our birthrate was high enough to sustain and grow mankind.
In any event, you've made your opinion known. Your niece is a 22 yr old adult who made a highly personal and informed choice. As good intentioned as you were given your own personal history with pregnancy, this is where you step away and kindly mind your own business.
Odds are the baby and your niece will be healthy and fine. She has the support of someone who is/was an EMT and midwife.
All of my children were born at home, with midwives. They gave me more attention and prenatal care than my OB/GYN. If your niece has educated proactive people tracking her things are going to be fine. Is she eating well, avoiding toxins, and in decent physical condition? That matters a lot.
Hospital births have more issues because the focus in hospitals is on liability management- not the health of the mother and child. In some religious oriented hospitals, the focus is on health of the child even at the expense of the mother.
In each of my children's births, a local OB on call at the hospital was notified of the pending labor, and if there had been any circumstances requiring that level of care, we would have been there in about 15 minutes, or just as fast as they can prep an OR for someone in their birthing area.
Modern childbirth is not optimized for great outcomes. It's optimized for best billing and use of doctors time.
let it go. You already told her and now it's none of your business. It's just going to create animosity and distrust and she won't talk to you about any of it anymore. Let it go.
I think you’re on the right track. Remind her what century it is and how far we’ve come in prenatal care. If that doesn’t work, start getting out babies pictures from 3rd world countries that don’t have healthcare like we do
Unfortunately if you’ve told her once, that’s enough. Back off. She’s not interested in what you have to say. It’s ultimately her decision and if she chooses to let her MIL delivery her baby she can do that. You just need to keep your feelings to yourself or maybe vent to a friend. Good luck to her and everyone involved.
You can’t do anything about it. I’d just keep my mouth closed. If anything is wrong with the baby, or she has a stillborn birth, then it is especially important you don’t put blame on her.
If she’s healthy in general, has a good diet, fit, active. Then she doesn’t really have to have prenatal care. She’ll change her mind if she hears horror stories or feels anything is wrong with the pregnancy. Lol. If her morning sickness is bad enough, she’ll go to the doctor.
As a nurse, I have found that you cannot argue with someone’s deeply held beliefs. It doesn’t matter how much evidence you show or how many people. When somebody thinks they’re right about some thing when it comes to healthcare, it is just impossible to convince them otherwise. Until something bad happens. And even then a lot of times they will not except that it could’ve been prevented, they will find a way to blame it on something else. All you can do is give her the information. The history of family problems. What problems have other family members had? What are the signs and symptoms to look out for for those specific problems if they happen to her. so at least she knows that much. Hopefully she has been taking prenatal vitamins at minimum. I am a very liberal healthcare worker. I believe in natural medicine and alternative therapies. But I believe that they should work in conjunction with western medicine. They shouldn’t work against each other.
You won’t change her mind
- offer foods high in folic acid, etc in a “take a break from cooking tonight” offering? If that is something you feel you can do.
Be there in a way you can tolerate if that helps you.
Inner city baby nurse here (NICU) and former high risk labor and delivery nurse. I take care of these babies when and if bad things happen and used to take of the moms. Let it go. She’ll never change her mind. She doesn’t work with me. Hasn’t seen what I’ve seen. She already think she knows everything and her mil does, too. Even if stuff does go wrong, and hopefully it won’t, she’ll never admit it. Ignorance is bliss. Stay out of it. Nothing you say will make a lick of difference. (If you want proof look at my comment history when I landed on a midwifery sub.)
I second this statement. I’ve seen them come to the hospital after things went wrong at home. They refuse to name their midwife and question everything we do, often refusing treatments. Go in the basement or sit in your car and scream it out. The results will be the same as if you argued with her.
🎯🎯🎯 Brain damaged baby and a mom that’s hemorrhaging yet it’s all our fault, that darn western medicine!
Exactly!!! We are horrible because we recommend Vitamin K!
…let’s go on over to picu and see that toddler with the bleeding into his brain cuz his parents refused vitamin k…. This happens, people. Thinks can be rare but when they go bad, they go REALLY bad. That could be why it’s recommended for every child born. I’ll never understand this line of thinking.
We tell the truth about risks and benefits. They sign to refuse and tell us we are trying to scare them.
Sometimes I hate Hipaa. Wish we could drag these parents to these ICUs, show them these babies and let them see the consequences and the irreversible harm before somebody else gets hurt by something preventable
It wouldn't change anything. People like this refuse to let the facts interfere with their misguided beliefs.
Yep. The U.S. has a huge percentage of people for whom belief is MORE IMPORTANT than fact.
Right you are. Look at all the antivaxxers who came out of the woodwork during covid. They didn’t educate themselves about the immune system, antibodies, antigens, memory T and B cells. Result: millions of unnecessary infections and deaths.The ultimate irony is that they are only hurting themselves and those closest to them.
Then whoa is me over the “unavoidable loss” Sadly, it’s Darwinism at work.
Just wanted to mention, in case this wasn't just autocorrect, that the phrase is "woe is me." "Woe" is an archaic word for sadness.
Same thing with a lot of the chronic conditions people blow off in the early stages. Come, come, let me show you this bedbound, blind, dialysis patient with no legs because they wouldn't manage their diabetes. Wanna guess how old they are? 76? No, try 51.
It’s the irony of Western medicine. People are oblivious to what can and does go wrong, specifically BECAUSE we’ve eliminated so much unnecessary suffering. They live in a made-up, blissful sanctuary created by their own ignorance.
A sanctuary decorated with crystals and candles and other good vibe nonsense
I work in a level 4 NICU and had a baby die of DIC because the parents refused Vitamin K. Their reason: they didn't want their baby to feel pain. Like emergent PICC and intubation aren't painless. Besides, I think vaginal birth is painful for baby. Ridiculous.
I googled what DIC meant and had to read a bit to understand it, but damn, that sounds like an awful way to die. According to Dr. Google, it apparently causes uncontrollable bleeding and organ damage via poor blood flow. Each thing by itself sounds painful. I can’t imagine parents letting their innocent baby die this way :(
It is. They bleed out. Bleeding into their brain too. I’ve seen it with adults too. It’s horrific. FYI Mayoclinic.org is a trusted site and better than just googling
Midwives in Ontario administer vitamin K. It is a legal requirement. They also do a PKU screening test. I would assume midwives would also do this in the US, to protect the newborn.
Parents can refuse anything in the US. And they do. Edit to add: It is illegal to intentionally home birth in my state. Lay midwives are also not allowed to practice here. Certified Nurse Midwives do not do home births because they’d lose their license.
Not sure if true but was told you can get an online doula cert to deliver in my state. Per the granola set that just did home water birth. Turned out ok. I know the hospital saved both my babies during normal pregnancies and labor that turned into stuck babies and wrapped cords quickly. However, I do think that as the mom I wish I would just have realized they were doing nothing for me and would never have been admitted myself after the delivery. Also didn't like getting an episiotomy the second time when the fucker said I cut you on your last scar line. Hmm no you didn't cause I didn't have one. The treatment of women in delivery and after sucked 20 years ago in US. I hear it still does. So I do relate to taking matters into your own hands even tho I think demanding better care is probably the best answer. Thanks for reading my rambling.
A doula does NOT deliver babies. A doula is a person who assists the mother with comfort, natural pain relief, helping the mother to be in control. They do not take the role of a midwife or doctor. They are not trained to deliver babies.
You may not have been cut but you could have a scar from tearing.
I had a skilled midwife (Texas) that administered Vit K, and did all the screenings. Admittedly, the electorate - I mean, medical consumer - is now living in a post-fact world.
"Post-fact world" 💯
… women still hemorrhage to death in maternity wards, though, because hospitals act as though there’s only one patient: the neonate. California reversed their maternal mortality rate by simply weighing the pads postpartum women are placed on to monitor blood loss. [Here’s one article on the problem](https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/6/29/15830970/women-health-care-maternal-mortality-rate) So on one hand, I can sympathize with women who are wary of how births are handled in general, and especially if they live where their medical choices are limited - where’s there’s no second choice OB or hospital, or their insurance won’t cover a change. On the other, I’m also well aware that every pregnancy is a risk to every woman! I want women to be treated as the primary patient everywhere, have their concerns taken seriously, and live through pregnancy, childbirth and beyond. I’m loathe to force medical treatment on anyone … the solution seems to be to improve medicine, not force compliance.
My sister had her last kid at 38. She barely went to the doctor. She insisted she wanted a home birth with just her husband to catch the baby. She also had placenta previa. Did that stop her from thinking she could still do it? Nope. Right up until she went to her last appointment where they sent her for an ultrasound because the baby hadn’t turned, and they told her she’d need a c-section or neither of them would survive, she still insisted she was gonna give it a try because, after all, “we can just go to the hospital if something happens”. This woman watched me lose a child in infancy, and something in her head made her think that’s an enviable situation. She’d “promise god” he could take one of her kids and she’d be ok with it because it was some divine plan. She’d said this *after* going to my 5 month old daughter’s funeral. Some people just have zero critical thinking, zero empathy, and zero brain cells.
My former friend was told that her amniotic fluid was almost gone and that she should have an emergency C-section the very next morning. It was the day before Thanksgiving, she had a houseful of people from out of town, and had already bought food. She didn't want to let family down by not hosting Thanksgiving, she didn't want a house full of people there when she came home with an infant, and she wanted to have a natural birth because she would feel it like a failure if she had a C-section. She also expressed concerns about a scar. I told her all of these things were secondary to the health of her baby, and that her doctor would not willingly give up Thanksgiving holidays if this weren't very, very important. She went ahead and hosted Thanksgiving. Three days later went into labor and her baby died because the umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck in the low fluid. My friend had the nerve to sue the doctor and the hospital for not telling her this could happen.
OMG. What happened to them?
She had the c-section and everyone is healthy. Frankly, I’m shocked her kids haven’t turned out much worse with her style of “parenting”.
Jesus. That seems like willful ignorance. Or maybe pathological stubbornness. I am terribly sorry about your daughter’s death. How gut-wrenching. And then seeing your sister purposefully thumbing her nose at sensible medical care and YOUR real life experience — that just blows my mind.
I visited one of those babies in the hospital. The seizures are now rare, but not so rare that she can ever get a drivers license. It was firemen who kept her sort-of alive long enough to get her to physicians. Mom was 23, in perfect health and had an easy pregnancy --until delivery. It was after that that I realized how unfair it is that the person who is most vulnerable in this situation does not get to determine the course of action.
I had a midwife for a homebirth in a state where midwives work with OB/GYNs who have admitting privileges. That’s how it should be.
Strange that people who would likely not hesitate to sue the obstetrician and everyone else in the delivery room if things aren’t optimal when their child is born, won’t name the midwife whose skill was far surpassed by the dangers of childbirth. I worked with a guy whose wife died in childbirth because she hemorrhaged in a hospital’s delivery room. It happens in the best possible scenarios; imagine what can happen when you try to give birth like it’s 1700!
I worked L&D for a while, this is right on target. Absolutely nothing you can do because whatever it is you’re just “feeding into big pharma” or some such nonsense. She’s a big girl unfortunately and I hope she doesn’t regret this decision because if she does it will be for the rest of her life (if she gets much more). I’m sorry 😢
I would still like to know where all my kickbacks from Big Pharma are. I have two kids in college who could use the money😉 I can understand being angry about drug prices. I’m a patient, too. But find the middle ground, people.
Big pharma and then: 1) Global Wellness Market: Valued at around $4.5 trillion. 2) Alternative Medicine Market: Expected to reach $296.3 billion by 2027. 3) Organic Food and Beverage Market: Projected to reach $620.0 billion by 2024.
I started out like this with a midwife with one of my older children in my first marriage. Fortunately everything went ok... then I got married to a man of science and he was like, "Not my kids! You will get a doctor and--" you get the idea. Things were fine several times and I was like, "Thpppt! See? All that wasted money!" Then I was in labor at a hospital as I had been many times and oh sh-- things went bad fast. It has been over 20 years and I still cannot process all that happened in an instant. I was in the OR and a mask was over my face and I woke up a little while later. Thank goodness Mr. Baby was ok, but they said his BP had dropped and something was wrong with me and the placenta and they told me all that went down in about five minutes. I remembered my "earthy birthy" with the elder sibling and asked, "What would have happened if this had happened at the midwife's clinic?" The nurse said that things wouldn't have been as good, "Just thank God it didn't happen that way!" I still can't believe I put my infants at risk in the first place. I don't understand why people are willing to put themselves and their infants at risk when they don't have to.
Thank you for this. This is exactly my point. It sounds like maybe you abrupted. (Although Could’ve been something else). As you know now, when things go bad, they go bad very fast and you need the right people to be there in a minute. When codes get called in hospitals we run. (Codes called = People who can resuscitate your baby and possibly you). Five minutes is too long. When the baby’s heart rate is down like that, they are going without oxygen (or not nearly enough). So imagine it like this - what if someone was choking you around your neck, or imagine for whatever reason you cannot breathe at all - now imagine that’s your baby, and you’re at home. Or you’re at a free standing birth center. Calling 911 is not as fast as you think. A midwife who has oxygen with her is still not nearly as good or as fast and efficient as a team of people who can do full NRP- resuscitate your baby, put in Umbi lines, give epi, intubate, etc. At most the midwife will bag your baby while she waits for the ambulance. These minutes are precious for your baby’s brain and health.
I haven't read your comment history, but just wanted to add that when someone does utilize midwifery, there is prenatal care. My prenatal visits were more thorough with a skilled midwife than they were with an experienced ob/gyn. My midwife emphasized a healthy pregnancy like appropriate exercise, and a healthy diet based on super foods with enough protein (65g/day, iir) to support a growing baby and brain, iron, and folic acid. Whereas with my ob/gyn, the extent of his advice was to "snack on rice cakes." 🤦♀️ But for OPs niece, it just sounds like she's winging it. OP, I'm sorry you're in this position. In talking with other women, I have learned that often pregnancies and births may have similarities within families. I learned from my mom that I was born two weeks late, and then my own daughter was born two weeks late. I was born with "wet lungs," and my son was born with wet lungs. It can be difficult to watch this from the sidelines
>My midwife emphasized a healthy pregnancy like appropriate exercise, and a healthy diet based on super foods with enough protein (65g/day, iir) to support a growing baby and brain, iron, and folic acid. Whereas with my ob/gyn, the extent of his advice was to "snack on rice cakes." 🤦♀️ I just want to say that my baby was built with pizza, chicken nuggets, and sour patch kids (the latter, I'd never eaten before in my life before I was pregnant). She's 2.5 years old, scary smart, and her butt is so small we still buy her 18 month pants. 2T pants fall off of her. I left the hospital weighing exactly what I weighed when I got pregnant, though the distribution changed to some extent. Sometimes rice cakes are the only thing you can keep down.
I’m curious what midwives in the states do? Where I am, they work with an OBGYN or hand you off to one if there are any complications. Mine had zero issue with epidurals or anything medical.
There is a difference between Certified Nurse Midwives and lay midwives. CNMs are educated and licensed, they carry liability insurance, and they are held to standards of practice. They are medical professionals. Anyone can call themselves a lay midwife. It's meaningless. Lay midwives aren't licensed to do anything, and if they get caught acting in a medical capacity, they can be charged with practicing medicine without a license.
I know a couple that hired a lay midwife for a home birth. I don't know what her background or experience was, but she didn't know the baby was breech until he was in the birth canal coming out. It took an ambulance and a helicopter to save them, and thankfully they're okay today, but it was a near thing.
The best description I've had of lay midwives is "the old lady in the village that delivers all the babies." That is basically the extent of their experience. The Duggars are a great example of people who use lay midwives and why it's not always a great idea.
Crazy, I don’t think we have lay midwives here. I’m pretty sure all midwives are certified.
There are also licensed midwives, though I don’t know if they exist in all states. I had an LM who works with an OB/GYN, and if anything goes amiss during pregnancy, to the doctor you go. My daughter was born at home.
I think they are conflating trained professional midwives with lay midwives.
My youngest was born 13 weeks early, so I've been through that. Pre-natal care helped immensely getting to a point where things weren't great, but they sure weren't dire. Awesome NICU staff took over at that point.
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I would imagine you're right. Maybe just buy her a weekly delivery of orange juice. Nurses, is it too late for that?
This nonsense needs to stop. The ignoring and letting it go is how this shit spreads. We're trying to build an advanced society here and confronting this bs is paramount. Talk to her calmly and rationally, but don't give up.
Part of being an advanced society is allowing others to have their beliefs and opinions even when we disagree. I'm sure she's already tried that route.
If they were suicidal would you leave them to their beliefs? Christian scientists who refuse to treat their children? These are harmful beliefs that have consequences not only for themselves but society as a whole. We have responsibilities. People do change their minds.
Thank you for all that you do. It's nurses like you that take on so much, and see such tragedies. I'm praying for your peace and healing. ~ former hospital consultant (patient safety)
Here's what happened to me. I did have all the pre-natal care. I had an drug free all natural vaginal birth without any interventions and as my precious 9 pound boy was placed in my arms I began to bleed out. Without skipping a beat, the nurse administered pitocin in my arm and wallah! Death averted. Had I birthed at home with a midwife I would have bled to death.
My oldest had an extremely traumatic birth and spent several days in critical condition. She was in the NICU for a month. Thanks to being in a hospital where everyone could swarm in to respond to the code when she was born, she lived. Thanks to neonatal therapeutic hypothermia, she didn’t suffer brain damage and is a thriving preteen. I can’t listen when people talk about giving birth at home. It gives me panic attacks. I’m right back in that delivery room where my unborn baby was perfectly fine…until she wasn’t. I’ve lost the illusion that childbirth is always safe, and there’s no getting it back.
FYI: If a woman gives birth (in the US) who hasn't had prenatal care, the birthing hospital will generally per protocol test the new baby for drugs. Because, for obvious reasons, a lot of drug addicted moms don't get prenatal care.
That won’t happen if they give birth through a midwife at home or do an insane “free birth.” That’s also why they do it. (But I agree with you. No PNC is a huge 🚩 and incredibly ignorant)
Homebirths turn into hospital births fast when things go south
often In the South
i live in the south and i can say at home births is hardly a thing here. the only time I've personally ever heard of someone doing that here is when it's someone who moves here from the midwest 🙄 but avoiding prenatal care here is common, especially because docs treat you like a drug addict even when you're not one
In Texas, they drug test them all! Unless you’re like related to a “pillar of the community” or some shit.
Every mother in Texas is drug tested without a reason? That would lead Texas to charge moms with crimes. Big can of worms
They already get into the dynamic of miscarriages to be sure no fetuses were aborted illegally so I think this tracks, sadly.
I was tested while I was asleep 14 hrs after birth
They may choose to give birth st home. I don't know what protocols are in place for that. Someone "in charge" has to verify a live birth, with details, for birth certificate, so I don't know if they could push thst, but thsts a good thought.
Check with your county's health department. There will be a whole list of conditions that must be met for a home birth.
This. People have had CPS called on them for not having everything set up for a home birth.
And it's an automatic CPS report if you don't get any prenatal care.
I’d be shocked if a registered midwife delivered a baby without having provided previous prenatal care. I suppose in an emergency like a hurricane or something. This sounds like a planned home birth.
I had homebirths but I also had labs done. Many places you can order your own lab work i.e. CBC, hgb/hct. They should be measuring her fundal height each month and monitoring baby’s heart rate and mom’s blood pressure each month.
Also monitoring blood sugars. Modern midwifery has many more tools at their disposal than they did even fifty years ago. Many have portable ultrasound devices, a full set of obstetrical tools, oxygen, sphygmomanometer, to measure blood pressure and medications to stabilize a woman if she requires transport due to complications. Most complications are detected prior to birth, and care transferred to an Obstetrician. Many OB’s work as colleagues with midwives. The vast majority of babies in the UK are delivered by a midwife with the majority of the prenatal care also being provided by midwives.
It's more than labs, critical things like proper amounts of fluid in uterus or uterine issues can't be determined without imaging...factually seeing breech before birth, etc to avoid testing in addition to prenatal care is bad...it would be nice to know if a baby needs to come out early from not enough fluid rather than health/brain damage waiting, it's the ignorance of that mindset that turns people off. Ignorance is not bliss, in some things it's steaight up stupid to deny yourself knowledge to just want to have your way. I hope all goes well & Im sorry that hope isn't sufficient -that planning would be recommended & can't plan for somethings without knowledge. Im sorry for your loss. Not having any children does not make you less competent at knowing best protocol ..."winging" AND not having a doctor/hospital is probably the very worst no plan-plan imho.
AND should be!
>don't know what protocols are in place for that. In some places the only protocol is that Certified Midwifes (the ones with actual training) are legally prohibited from attending these births. >Someone "in charge" has to verify a live birth, with details, for birth certificate Nope. Parents who home birth can fill out the birth certificate information all on their own. But most of these don't get their baby a birth certificate or SSN because being a sovereign citizen goes hand in hand with Free Birthing (and even those who aren't officially sovereign citizens may not see the value of this paperwork or are just lazy).
isn't the lack of prenatal care neglect?
Yeah, but the granola types won't be birth in the hospital anyway if they can help it.
I live in Florida & they tested me for all drugs before I gave birth and they tested my baby afterwards. Didn’t ask, didn’t consent, they just did it. I saw it on my patient portal & was like wth lol I also saw the doctor 1-2 times a week from 20-36 weeks pregnant… I’m not mad about getting tested, because I obviously had nothing to hide. I think they should test every mother & baby.
You have to stay out of it. They have weighed up the options and made an informed choice. It's the wrong choice in my opinion. But I live somewhere where treatment is free so maybe it's a financial thing?
Like the old adage...You can lead a horse to water...
Prenatal and pregnancy care are covered by Medicaid in the US, so if they’re in the US, it shouldn’t be a financial thing.
Thanks for the info. There's no excuse then, not to have a basic form of care then.
Is it truly NO prenatal care, or is it that she’s receiving prenatal care from her midwife MIL? Homebirth midwives provide prenatal care, and will refer patients to clinics/hospitals/other care providers if needed.
This was my question as well. I had a homebirth and absolutely received prenatal care from my midwife. Not the same level of monitoring and tests as I did with my second child, but she was measuring me, weighing me, feeling the position of the baby, etc.
If she’s actually a licensed homebirth midwife and not just saying she is. There’s a huge difference. But honestly it’s a moot point because it’s not something anyone can do anything about.
Homebirth midwifery is illegal in many US states because it's very high risk. Also, many homebirth midwives really don't refer out, even when they know they should, and many families have suffered the worst outcomes because of it.
You can't. You can't control other people and she doesn't want your help.
All you can do is support her. I had a friend that went the natural route with her first baby. Allll the way to having the birth in a cabin. Problems started when the new mom to be went two weeks past her due date. And then three weeks. Midwife had her go to the cabin and broke her water at that point. Friend ended up in the ER with a REALLY bad tear and needing blood transfusions. Kid is ok. Then she decided to try for another kid the same way!!!! The second child has several developmental delays. Everyone gets the choice of how they want to give birth. I could have argued with my obg and insisted on a vaginal birth, even after being told I had a fibroid sitting on my cervix that would be a problem. But luckily I had never planned on doing that and had somehow known it was going to be a c section
Most likely *preventable* developmental delays - Delays which would not have happened had they given birth in a hospital, or a birth Center connected to a hospital, so that when the baby is monitored and shows signs of lack of oxygen, the NICU team is alerted and gets there asap to save the baby and mom. Perfect example of harm being done the first time and mom still not learning that lesson, and then doing it all over again. Denial is strong. Ignorance is bliss.
You can't force someone to do what YOU want. You've stated your opinion. But her choice is HER CHOICE.
I don't think you can do anything at this point, but be glad that her MIL has some relevant experience, and, we hope, will be able to recognize it if things get so bad she needs an ambulance. But, truthfully, odds are good that everything will be fine. Better to maintain a relationship with her in case down the road she needs to escape this cultish family.
The two main things that can be dangerous is not being monitored for gestational diabetes and the baby ending up in distress during birth. Also, my best friend almost bled out after giving birth and they didn't notice... This was after she was back in a normal room and started to hemorrhage and soaked the whole bed in blood. Statistically, there are not many problems crop up during childbirth but, when there is, it can be deadly for either the mother, child, or both. Some Christian Science midwife bitch isn't going to be able to deal with some of them either. Prenatal checks are usually the best way to go, even if using a midwife. There are real midwives, and then there are homoeopathic twats that call themselves midwives. It's one thing for an adult to be stupid, not go to doctors, and take the risks for not doing so, and another thing to endanger an unborn or new born (or any age child for that matter) because of their braindead bullshit.
I don't disagree. I am all in favor of prenatal care. But someone trained as an EMT as well as a midwife probably has some ability to recognize a crisis. And, most importantly, since the OP isn't in control of this decision, it's more important that she remain available.
I gave birth three times (all in the hospital, once with OB, twice with midwives). You can buy test strips to check urine for glucose. My second and third I didn't have the "orange drink" diabetes test because it made me so sick the first time around. I eat well, am normal to low weight and had no risk factors. All three were born perfectly healthy, no signs of GD (never spilled sugars into my urine, did weekly urine tests, all three were within 3 oz above/below 8 pounds). I have friends who have done "free births" and that does not appeal to me AT ALL. I bled a lot after our third and needed immediately attention from my midwives to get things slowed down. Our kiddos also had the risk of ABO incompatibility. Pretty sure eldest had it with OB... But OB care also missed severe anemia. They also forced a lot of unnecessary ultrasounds and told me to expect a 5 pound baby because I was so tiny. I just hide them well... Which I explained to my midwives. Even they had me do one extra ultrasound because I had fallen off growth charts. At 40 weeks I measured 32 weeks but still had 8 pounders.
I'd say you need to stay out of it, except *maybe* ask..."Just to reassure me...what your the back up plan? Which ER would you head to if there are problems?" and then offer find someone on standby to drive them if needed.
That’s smart and maybe say something like “I want you to do whatever you feel is best for you and the baby. But just for my peace of mind, please make sure to run through some scenarios ahead of time so you’re not making tough decisions while in labor” I’d also want to urge the mother to be to make sure her plans are known to all of her in laws ahead of time, and be assured they’ll listen to her if she feels they need to call 911.
She is not making a good choice, but there is nothing you can do about it. I realize this must be frustrating, but I would take a big step back and let things play out on their own. Not your circus . . . not your monkeys.
I understand your concern for her and not wanting her to endure the same pain as you have. However, you have probably already said enough. She has made her decisions and will have to live with the consequences. I wish the best possible outcome for her and your family.
Ask her if her natural supplements include folate Without sufficient folic folate the baby’s neural tube may not properly form into the brain and spine; it may not close properly. Edit: folate (not folic acid)!
My dad was a doctor and my son was in the emergency room and they wanted to transport him to another hospital that could handle a small child and give him the medicine he needed. They wanted to take him in an ambulance. I asked my dad shouldn't I take him in my car and save the money an ambulance would cost? My son was awake and ok just needed something within 24 hours. My father said, "and if something bad happened on the way you would wish you had the EMT's and an ambulance with all the equipment." I feel this is the same. If the baby has any issues at birth, you would want to know you did the best possible for that child, in my opinion.
My first child was a super normal pregnancy. Everything went as planned. Until it didn’t. I had to be put under anesthesia while they delivered her. Then she was life flighted to a hospital where she stayed for a month. Things and go south very very quickly and I was very lucky to be surrounded by professionals.
Not being a wise-ass here. Encourage her to make sure her will, and all powers-of-attorney, are up-to-date and accessible. It sounds like that's about all you can do. Edit for clarity.
You stay out of it because it’s none of your business. As unfortunate as it is.
Honestly how all parenting comments are...I may disagree heavily but unless you're willing to call and report abuse (which will get logged and do nothing), there's little else you can do without legal recourse.
Sounds like you have already made those presentations to her. You can do no more than that. If things go side ways, don’t say “I told you so.”
Fwiw, i was very into the granola, anti medicine, and anti vaccine etc lifestyle when i had my son 15 months ago. I ate my placenta! I was going to give birth at a birthing center and when i went 11 days past due, they did an ultrasound to check on things. They found that my amniotic fluid was extremely low and recommended i go to the hospital to be induced immediately. My induction went well, the hospital had all the same tools as the birthing center (to my surprise), and when my baby was born he was mildly jaundiced. They had me pumping nonstop to flush his system with breast milk and get past the colostrum quickly. He didn’t have any long term effects or have to go to the nicu thank goodness. All that is to say, thank goodness for modern medical help. I didn’t hemorrhage, or need a c-section or anything more serious but i could’ve died in childbirth and my baby could’ve died shortly after if we had given birth at the birth center as planned. All of the risks we faced were undetectable to the naked eye. Tell her don’t let her fear distort her thinking. There are risks on both sides. Particularly 300% increased risk of maternal death with home birth and 4x risk to the baby.
You don't. She is aware of what's out there and the family history, she's an adult woman making her own decisions. Hopefully she is young enough that her general health is good and depending on what the family history is, perhaps a lower risk of complications. At the end of the day, after sharing your concerns, there is nothing more you can do and if you continue pushing, you may find yourself persona non grata.
Is her mother a registered midwife? Where did she train? What equipment does she have? For example, I was a clinic administrator for a group of midwives who practiced in Ontario. They all had to have a prior learning assessment to bring their training up to Ontario standards. Some had practiced in the UK, some had been trained in Mexico, and finally some had come through Ontario’s midwifery school program. They carried oxygen for both mother and infant, blood pressure reading equipment, portable ultrasound devices, a number of medications for emergencies such as epinephrine. They had quite a bit of other equipment also. They were all trained in emergency care and when to transfer care. Because they were all specialists in normal birth, they were very good at detecting abnormal pregnancy and birth situations. Home birth is a proven and safe alternative to hospital birth when prenatal care has been given by qualified midwives and when delivery is with qualified midwives. Birth is a normal process. Obstetricians are trained in abnormal birth. This can sometimes cause them to routinely use procedures that can, in fact, endanger the fetus and the mother. The most common example would be inducing a woman into labour before she is ready to deliver. This often results in fetal distress and an emergency cesarean section. Don’t feel silly. You care about your niece. Active Birth, by Janet Balaskas was a book often recommended to clients by the midwives whom I worked for. It might be a thoughtful gift for your niece to show your support. It wouldn’t hurt to ask what plan her midwives have should the birth fail to progress normally. As the midwives at our clinic always said to clients, in the end, it’s not how or where you gave birth that matters; but that you have a healthy mother and baby. That is the priority.
Underrated comment
I understand your frustration. It is difficult to watch others take unnecessary risks. However, this is her body, her baby, her future, and her risk. She has made her decision. You have said all you can. It is time to bow out, and observe the results.
Maybe find out which hospital or care center is closest to them in case there’s an emergency
Midwives usually provide prenatal care. I agree, this doesn’t sound ideal. But there’s nothing you can do about it.
there's an old saying, 'you can try to teach a pig to sing, but really you'll only frustrate yourself and annoy the pig' (that was the saying, i'm not calling anyone names)
I honestly think that you've said your piece and if you continue to try to "change her mind", she will find it less than supportive. It's her pregnancy and you have very little say in it. If you want to be on good terms with her, back off and truly be "supportive".
I remember thinking some things like this when I was pregnant. A friend of a friend of mine was a neonatal nurse. He took me aside and said “YOUR BABY WILL DIE AND SO WILL YOU.” Because he and I weren’t really friends and he was a nurse, it shocked me. I stopped all my “natural” thoughts. Good thing too, I needed an emergency c-section and one or both of us may have died. Find someone outside the family who has experience to tell her.
The only thing you can say is that Little House on the Prairie births can have Little House on the Prairie consequences.
These responses are hilarious. You all know that prenatal vitamins aren't necessary to have a healthy baby, right?!! You can actually get everything you need from a healthy diet. Midwives provide prenatal care, and are usually MORE involved than an OB. Studies suggest that low-risk mothers have less complications when they give birth out of the hospital setting, and babies are at no greater risk. My sister almost bled out IN THE HOSPITAL after her first birth. Second baby she had at a birth center and the midwife was able to stop and control the bleeding much more quickly and with less drama than the hospital. My fourth baby needed oxygen and a few other interventions after birth, all of which my midwife was able to provide, and we avoided the stress and trauma of the NICU, which almost certainly would have happened in the hospital setting. I was so grateful to be able to take my baby home from the birth center, knowing that she was available if we needed more help, instead of having to visit my baby in the NiCU, on antibiotics, etc.
It actually sounds like MIL is trained as a midwife and could handle it and they can go to the hospital if something happens. She has a point, women have been having babies naturally for years
And dying just as naturally. Childbirth used to be a leading cause of death for women but much like childhood diseases we tend to forget that. However it is up to the mom so moot point.
The pregnancy problems in your family are not necessarily hereditary. Give her the benefit of the doubt that she is taking the best possible care of herself, offer to help if she needs something like prenatal vitamins, be supportive of their journey as much as your able. And may I suggest you go read the book “Birth: The Surprising History of How we Are Born” by Tina Cassidy. Please don’t have your niece read it pregnant, too many horror stories for someone with pregnancy hormones imo. But very interesting and it might help you feel compassion for your niece’s decision. She needs support right now, not opinions she hasn’t asked for. Congrats on the new addition to your family. I hope the birth goes well and no back up plan is needed.
You do nothing actually. She is an adult who is pregnant. She is making what feels to her an informed decision with her in-law midwife. It sucks for you, because you are going to be anxious through her pregnancy, but you really have no leg to stand on. It's her body, her choice. Try to be positive if you can and if it goes belly up don't scold her, just support her.
I’m older and a mom of four (birthed with prenatal care and hospital births) and I think prenatal care isn’t really necessary if you are healthy and know what the problems are. Your body does all the work. Most well visits are just to make sure everything is progressing but the truth is they really can’t do anything if there is a problem with the baby. If her mom is a midwife, I think she’s in good hands and knows what the problems are. Birthing has become so medicalized and it really doesn’t need to be. I would relax and enjoy your soon to be grand nephew or niece. You can tell her your opinion but you don’t have the final say and shouldn’t nag. Good luck.
38 no kids of my own but very close to my 6 yr old niece. I’m with the other women that say stay out of it and just be there for her if and when she needs you. Arguing with her will just push her away and that’s the last thing you want. 💕
One of my best friends went the birthing center route. She was in labor for three days and eventually had to get rushed to the hospital to deliver anyway. Now she takes care of an adult child with serious health issues. He’s 24 and will always need a caregiver. Once a woman goes into labor, that baby needs to be delivered in 24 hours.
Any reputable bc with CNMs would not have let her labor for so long. I was in labor for about 20 hours and my CNM told me we were in good shape, but if things went too much longer w out progression we’d need to get a transport. Too many people don’t do their due diligence when seeking care and then people are so quick to jump on the anti midwife bandwagon when things go wrong.
It's not your place. Support her through her pregnancy is all you can do. Every women has the right to choose a treatment plan that best suits them whether we agree or not.
I'm sorry to say this, but there isn't anything you can do. She's an adult.
The CPS thing is wrong. 🇺🇸 Prenatal care is before the child is born . That’s why you can see a pregnant woman in a bar , drinking alcohol And you can’t do anything about it Experience- many years of CPS investigations
I do not believe the EMT is a midwife. They wouldn’t touch that lawsuit with the ten foot poles
Sounds like you’ve *already* expressed to her so now let it be. She’s an adult and not required to take advice.
She's 22, so at least she has that going for her. You have warned her. You've done your part. You've done your job. Don't waste your energy - enjoy your life - don't make her problem your problem. Let it go. Set boundaries hard and fast if things go poorly and as a result they ask for your time or money. There are right and wrong ways to do things and you don't have to support people who blatantly choose to do the wrong things.
Don’t do anything. It’s not your business. If she wants to risk the health and well being of her kid….well then; that’s on her.
Let’s look at things that can be prevented by proper prenatal care, for instance, using prenatal vitamins: It's not known what causes spina bifida, but a lack of folic acid before and in the early stages of pregnancy is a significant risk factor. Infections the mom can get if not vaccinated that cause birth defects: The most widely accepted infectious teratogens are known as TORCH infections. If a woman is infected prenatally, perinatally, peripartum, or even postnatally, these pathogens are known to cause congenital birth defects. Teratogenic agents include infectious agents (rubella, cytomegalovirus, varicella, herpes simplex, toxoplasma, syphilis, etc.); physical agents (ionizing agents, hyperthermia); maternal health factors (diabetes, maternal PKU. It’s like people who say they survived growing up without seatbelts, because nobody who didn’t survive is around to comment. Why would you not take advantage of advances in medical care?
My friends did this. Their baby died. They live with the guilt every single damn day and regret their decision every god damned day.
I think you express it once with love and caring, and then let it go and tend to your feelings about it. Because you can’t make her understand the risks or facts if she doesn’t want to. You try your best and share what you know and are comfortable sharing about said facts and/or lived experience, and then the real work is accepting that even young adults that we love get to make their own choices about their own bodies and lives-including dangerous ones that seem unfair. To be clear: I don’t agree with her choice either. My comment is about you, OP, and you’re question of how to get through to her…because that might be impossible, and definitely isn’t your responsibility. I know you love and care about her, and it will probably be easier and better for you and on your relationship with her if you aren’t holding pressure to get her to see the light.
I’ve had 3 babies at home w midwives with no interventions, and minimal prenatal care…. All 3 healthy, happy, smart and thriving. She will be fine. As long as she has family that believes in her and their way of living. Just back off no one needs your negative vibes.
I was shocked when I ran into an account on Instagram of a woman like this who lost her baby during childbirth to what would have been avoidable circumstances. She literally started immediately posting things like ‘He wasn’t meant for this world’ and ‘God needed him more than I did’. These folks aren’t really operating from reality.
Getting older is like leveling up in a game—more experience points!
She is an adult making her own decisions in a situation whose outcome does not affect you. I, like you, feel it's a foolish decision but it's none of my business.
We make our own decisions, we can't control other people.
I hear your concerns based on your experience and family history, but it is her pregnancy journey and her body. I'd maybe think instead, how can I better support her on this journey? Maybe gifting her some books on natural and home pregnancy. At most, you could gently share your concerns, but I'd try to experiment with what it is like to trust the process along with her.
You can't help someone who doesn't want help.
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This is entirely up to your niece in how to handle her pregnancy. Just say prayers that all will go well. Infusing your doubt verbally during this time is not beneficial to her. You're not in control.
That puts you to the level of risk pregnancy had prior to modern medicine. In my own situation, my pelvic arch could only fit a small (5 lb. or less) baby so I had to have a caesarean, I went through labor and was 10 cm dilated for 6 hours before the procedure, and my son's feet were still snugly under my ribs when they pulled him out, one of the main memories I have of my procedure. What does a midwife do in that case, break the bones? What if the cord is around the baby's neck? Breech births can be fraught with problems. I wanted to have a natural childbirth, but I was told about my pelvic arch in advance so I tried it in a birthing room in the hospital.
I can honestly say that the one liberating thing Ive learned by "being older" is - You cant make people do what they don't want to do & trying just isn't worth the stress/ aggravation /sadness / bewilderment etc etc etc. Agree to disagree and let the chips fall where they may. Of course there are nuances and you learn to recognize those with experience as well. But in this case, this is where you just watch and be supportive when and if its needed. (I hope nothing goes wrong too)
I hate to say it, but I would probably be like her. It’s not popular I know but I have my reasons.
You can’t fix stupid
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I have 7 grandchildren who were birthed at home via midwife. A couple of them had no prenatal care. All are very healthy children ages 5 mo to 13. The 2 midwives who oversaw the births had a doctor on call in case of emergency.
You ask "How do I express to her how important it is that she get prenatal care?!" but it sounds like you have already expressed this to her, and she has responded with "no thank you." Give up. She's made up her mind and it's her pregnancy to run as she chooses.
Unless her refusal has to do with lack of funds and you're willing to pay, all you can do is offer your kind opinion, let it go, and hope for the best.
32.9 women in the United States die for every one-hundred thousand births. Prenatal care has helped lower the risk but can't eliminate the risk entirely. How does she feel about leaving her child an orphan? Or worse, in my opinion, having to watch someone else raise her child because she is too disabled to be a good mom?
As others have said you are not wrong, but it is a fight you can't win. You have expressed your opinion you can only hope it turns out well. Sorry there is really nothing better for you
Mind your own buisness. You said your peace and she said hers.
As worried as you are, its still her choice. There's nothing you can do except worry.
I have two kids and my blood type is Rh positive. I had to have a shot for the Rh factor during the pregnancy. It doesn't necessarily affect you during your first pregnancy, but is definitely almost fatal during the second pregnancy. So, the blood type Rh factor is important to get tested for.
Have one of your relatives who experienced a difficult birth call her and tell her what happened.
I understand the frustration when watching family do things that seem risky to me. I can tell how much you care about your niece. That's very kind. Letting go and getting other people make choices I don't agree with has been one of my particular crosses to bear.
A lot of people are saying to sort of wash your hands, and that is also my general MO. HOWEVER this is not about you or your niece, it’s about the health and safety of her child. I say give it one more go with your niece. Sit down alone with her, make sure she feels heard and understood. Then call her attention to her baby, which did not ask to be conceived and to whom she owes the best situation available. If she can’t hear that, she is fully responsible for what happens, you did your best.
All you can do is pray.
Also what if the baby has deformities, a disability or a genetic problem. Before anyone goes barking at me, care for a disabled child and the family is an absolute joke in this country. Families in the disabled community are mentally and financially drowning. Maybe that’ll wake her up?
Your niece has made her choice, and you have to accept that. If things go badly, be there for her if you can.
You've made your points already. Not knowing the type of midwife and experience level, I'd maybe just ask what her plan is for IF things go wrong? Stress that you think everything will be good, but that to reduce stress and panic, there should be a list of emergency criteria and a plan. A friend just did this today. She had a list of several criteria that would result in the drive to the hospital.
Let her be. Some have to learn the hard way. She may also be just fine as long as she is getting a very healthy diet.
Let her watch the eclampsia episode on Downton Abbey. Not trying to be an asshole, just have it on if she comes to visit.
It’s not your business. Did she ask you? She did not. Stay out of it. Source: I’m a certified old person who also had zero interest in the often-expressed opinions of my MIL…and has successfully birthed and raised some wonderful kids.
My daughter in law was semi this way. She did see a person not doctor. She had a at home birth . was very long too long . midwives whispering finally told daughter in law to go to hospital baby in distress. tells me and her mom don’t tell anyone about who they are. litterally ran Turns out they were not licensed in my state possibly any state. My grandson didn’t make it . He died . I never blamed or said anything to her. No point. She knew. Next baby she had in hospital. ironically my other daughter in law is a neonatologist. But in another state. She had plenty to say. I don’t know if this will offend you. But I will pray for the baby. What she ,my son and grandparents went through was horrible.
You don't. You stand back and keep out of this. Your niece is an idiot. So is her MIL. There is nothing you can do.
It was also the leading killer of women and children until recently.
You can't fix stupid
idk what you can do, but if you can get her to take pre-natal vitamins if she's open to the idea, or get her foods with folate (folic acid) into her diet. Spina Bifida is a condition where the spinal cord is exposed and the nerves die, leading to all kinds of disability depending on where the spinal cord stops developing properly. Folate (folic acid) in prenatal vitamins can nearly 100% prevent that condition. I had a "natural"-based friend who did not take her prenatal vitamins and her daughter had this condition, has never walked correctly her whole life. She gets around good enough, the severity of her disability was considered mild, but her legs will always be weak and she never played any sports. Her mother taking a pre-natal vitamin a couple times a day would have (nearly) 100% prevented this.
You can lead a horse to water, but...
It's the same a vaccine hesitancy, only thing u can do is watch.
OP, your thinking is rational. I don't have any specific advice on how to talk to your niece but I wanted you to know that because you doubted yourself b/c you don't have kids. Prenatal care is very important (mom of several kids).
Let her know that you are available to talk or to help her if she wants or needs your support, even if it's just prenatal vitamins. There's nothing more you can do.
Women have died in childbirth for thousands of years. Child birth is a risky business. I know. She’s too stubborn to listen to reason so all you can do is wait and watch. I’m very sorry.
You have expressed your feelings and thoughts and now you should drop it. It is her decision.
What does she think prenatal care is about? I had a natural homebirth with my second child. But I still had prenatal care and had midwide care at the birth. I doubt anything you say will convince her, but prenatal care can help to spot problems that are easy (or complicated) to fix, but can be fatal if not fixed. A simple ultrasound can tell you if the baby is simply viable or not. A good friend of mine had a pregnancy where things seemed normal and she went in for her 20 week scan and was told the baby was missing part of his brain, had no esophagus, his stomach wasn't forming, lungs weren't forming. She was heart broken, but at least found out and could make some decisions. You can find out vital info like placenta placement. Placenta previa requires a c-section and it's not something to mess around with.
If her MIL has midwife training I would argue that she is getting prenatal care. I personally chose to see MDs but your niece is correct that midwives delivered babies for thousands of years. Not the best possible level of care in my opinion, but far from getting no prenatal care.
Ignorance and certainty are such a very painful combo. As much as you want to help, people that have been greenwashed are nearly impossible to get through to. Whats sad is that either she will learn a very painful lesson, or everything will go fine and she’ll double down on the next pregnancy.
I also had complicated pregnancies. The pressure do things ‘all natural’ is very real. I never got the opportunity as all my pregnancies were high risk. At the least she should be getting checks and ultrasounds. Complications can be found with these so she would know in advance if there could be trouble. Before all these tests women and babies were at high risk of death. Why would anyone risk it? I don’t know how you could convince her and it probably depends on how close you are whether you should keep dropping hints to her or not but if you feel strongly about it, keep trying. Lives are at risk.
Honestly this is a losing battle for you. The mom is doing what she wants and all you can do is standby and wish her nothing but the best. It sucks.
You won’t convince her of anything by insulting her or her family’s views and experiences. I realize there is a bias on Reddit but life is not neatly divided between those who do it right and those who don’t. This comment thread will surely be a diatribe of how stupid your niece is and how the commenter knows how bad it can be. However the reality is something much more complex and individual. Your niece sounds like she has an excellent, and intelligent support system but doesn’t quite see things from your point of view. Your experience is likely coloring your perspective. Yes, women have been having babies since forever and the vast majority are just fine … your niece will likely be one more. The rare concerns and complications happen … what is your goal? Do you expect her to abandon her views and go completely to what you would’ve been comfortable with? Pretty sure that wouldn’t work. Try explaining your concerns, listening to hers with an open mind and find a place where you both agree that under certain circumstances of course she would call in the Calvary. I know of midwives, doulas and just more hands off OB’s that educate parents on signs and red flags yet still facilitate the kind of birthing experience those families prefer. They respect their patients and realize a one size fits all approach won’t work. The argument that only full stop invasive,in hospital OB plans result in healthy babies is preposterous- the NICU’s are full of babies whose parents followed every Dr recommended appt, shot and vitamin.
If mil is a midwife, she *is* getting prenatal care. This is not your business. Just because other women had problems doesn't mean she will and you don't know all the details of her life. She may have a plan you haven't seen.
I agree with you. However; it's her baby, and her life. You can't convince her of anything, because it seems that she has her mind made up and people supporting her in her decision.
Honestly, the MOST annoying thing as a prospective parent or parent is having others tell you what you should do. She already told you she has considered what you said and she has a properly trained support team. Why do you keep insisting? The same way you re giving this advice someone else is telling them it should be under water and another in he middle of he forest while others are telling he she should definitively need to have a C section. Honestly, stop bugging her. I draw a line at vaccines, though because crazy antivaxer a are putting others at risk, not just their child, bit that's another topic.
With a family history of complicated pregnancies, she should have a back up plan at the very least. Unfortunately, it looks like she made up her mind. Be there for support and hope everything goes right. Going against her will cause some strain.
Pre-natal care only became a 'thing' within the past 100 years or so. Somehow, we still managed to pro-create and grow our population before that. Granted, infant mortality was also much higher then... but, historically our birthrate was high enough to sustain and grow mankind. In any event, you've made your opinion known. Your niece is a 22 yr old adult who made a highly personal and informed choice. As good intentioned as you were given your own personal history with pregnancy, this is where you step away and kindly mind your own business. Odds are the baby and your niece will be healthy and fine. She has the support of someone who is/was an EMT and midwife.
All of my children were born at home, with midwives. They gave me more attention and prenatal care than my OB/GYN. If your niece has educated proactive people tracking her things are going to be fine. Is she eating well, avoiding toxins, and in decent physical condition? That matters a lot. Hospital births have more issues because the focus in hospitals is on liability management- not the health of the mother and child. In some religious oriented hospitals, the focus is on health of the child even at the expense of the mother. In each of my children's births, a local OB on call at the hospital was notified of the pending labor, and if there had been any circumstances requiring that level of care, we would have been there in about 15 minutes, or just as fast as they can prep an OR for someone in their birthing area. Modern childbirth is not optimized for great outcomes. It's optimized for best billing and use of doctors time.
let it go. You already told her and now it's none of your business. It's just going to create animosity and distrust and she won't talk to you about any of it anymore. Let it go.
I think you’re on the right track. Remind her what century it is and how far we’ve come in prenatal care. If that doesn’t work, start getting out babies pictures from 3rd world countries that don’t have healthcare like we do
Unfortunately if you’ve told her once, that’s enough. Back off. She’s not interested in what you have to say. It’s ultimately her decision and if she chooses to let her MIL delivery her baby she can do that. You just need to keep your feelings to yourself or maybe vent to a friend. Good luck to her and everyone involved.
You can’t do anything about it. I’d just keep my mouth closed. If anything is wrong with the baby, or she has a stillborn birth, then it is especially important you don’t put blame on her.
If she’s healthy in general, has a good diet, fit, active. Then she doesn’t really have to have prenatal care. She’ll change her mind if she hears horror stories or feels anything is wrong with the pregnancy. Lol. If her morning sickness is bad enough, she’ll go to the doctor.
As a nurse, I have found that you cannot argue with someone’s deeply held beliefs. It doesn’t matter how much evidence you show or how many people. When somebody thinks they’re right about some thing when it comes to healthcare, it is just impossible to convince them otherwise. Until something bad happens. And even then a lot of times they will not except that it could’ve been prevented, they will find a way to blame it on something else. All you can do is give her the information. The history of family problems. What problems have other family members had? What are the signs and symptoms to look out for for those specific problems if they happen to her. so at least she knows that much. Hopefully she has been taking prenatal vitamins at minimum. I am a very liberal healthcare worker. I believe in natural medicine and alternative therapies. But I believe that they should work in conjunction with western medicine. They shouldn’t work against each other.
And for thousands of years infants and mothers died.
You won’t change her mind - offer foods high in folic acid, etc in a “take a break from cooking tonight” offering? If that is something you feel you can do. Be there in a way you can tolerate if that helps you.