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Superman knows Kryptonian martial arts.
Hulk doesn't have the intelligence or patience to learn martial arts.
Characters like Homelander hasn't had to face any real challenges to their power. It's the same for most really strong brutes.
yes..... the destruction of coast city was to create the first of many war world engines (thus Mongul's role) that would turn earth into a new war world but Henshaw was just using Mongul as a pawn...... although I can't remember exactly how bc they did in fact seem like they were turning coast city into a new war world. Maybe Henshaw was going to be in charge of the new War World I don't remember
Crazy times to be a comic fan and they totally went with all the events back then for years.... We got Kyle rayner and hal's destruction of the core.... soon after was the whole bane thing and azrael it was awesome it lasted years and they went with it.... now they'd just go back to how it was in a day
It's also important to note that Hal Jordan went insane to such a degree that he used his ring powers to recreate the entirety of Coast City. Then he became evil, then he died, then he became Spectre (God's angel of death and vengeance, sort of). I remember comic stores handing out the cyborg/steel/superboy comics during free comic day back then.
Both. He trained with Ali because he was supposed to fight an alien in a boxing match on a planet with a red sun that would drain his powers. Then when that plan didn't work out the two of them had a match to decide who would be Earth's champion, and Ali beat him.
Before the New52 universe reboot, Superman started training in Kryptonian martial arts, and it gave him some sort of psychic abilities he didn’t like, so he stopped.
Bank roof blows open to expose Superman descending on a group of would be bank robbers.
Superman: “Have you guys heard of Kryptonian CrossFit? You should stop by the local box and try some burpees.”
You can make MMA plenty cinematic. Look at a fight like [Minotauro vs Bob Sapp](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyYLwL7Yj3A&t=7s&pp=ygUVbWlub3RhdXJvIHZzIGJvYiBzYXBw), and tell me it isn't cinematic. Or read a comic like Baki the Grappler.
Please remember that discussions on this subreddit are required to be strictly Watsonian. Saying something is so because it's more cinematic is not appropriate in an answer. Thanks.
In the start you don’t need to. Your strength just outclasses anyone else.
Then you meet someone on your level, and you realise that maybe throwing a hard punch isn’t the end-all. But now what?
To learn a martial art, you need to spar. This means you need someone friendly on your level. If you don’t, there’s honestly not much to gain from it.
The Justice League has that, and notably, Superman and Wonderman at the very least are highly trained.
But let’s say you don’t have that. Why not learn a human martial art?
Well, they’re not that useful for most heroes.
For most flying bricks, it seems like force of will always trumps kinetic motion. They seemingly don’t generate energy through motion in the same way, so a roundhouse kick rarely seems to be a better choice than a punch, because super speed seemingly makes the difference pointless.
Then we have something often overlooked: grappling. For humans, a lot of hand to hand fights tend to get to the ground. There’s a lot we can do to abuse our anatomy, and make someone bigger and stronger unable to move.
I see two problems with this for flying bricks.
One is that fights rarely reach the ground - because well, they fly. They often have or fight people with secondary powers, and grappling just isn’t the same when your opponent can shoot lasers.
The other is anatomy. Grapples are about utilising nerves and muscles in the *human* body. Superman looks human, but is he affected in the same ways? And then we have people like Martian Manhunter who is a damn shapeshifter.
TL;DR: Martial arts tend to only be useful when you have someone on your level to spar with.
>One is that fights rarely reach the ground - because well, they fly. They often have or fight people with secondary powers, and grappling just isn’t the same when your opponent can shoot lasers.
Also they are stronger than the floor
"Whenever I need to hit someone, I hit them with the largest weapon I can find: the ground."
Until you have the power, and your opponent the durability, to get drilled through hundreds of meters of rock.
> In the start you don’t need to. Your strength just outclasses anyone else.
>
>
>
> Then you meet someone on your level, and you realise that maybe throwing a hard punch isn’t the end-all. But now what?
Thats what happened when Hulk met Thanos. He finally met the one person he couldn't Hulk smash and win against. Thanos had the combination of strength and technique that mopped the floor with Hulk.
Thanos, even without all of the stones in his possession, mopped the floor so easily with Hulk it was just a sparring match. His bodyguards did not intervene because they didn't need to, and because their master enjoys that kind of practice. They didn't want to ruin Thanos' fun.
Hulk was utterly traumatized by it, and took a while to recover to be willing to fight again.
> For most flying bricks, it seems like force of will always trumps kinetic motion. They seemingly don’t generate energy through motion in the same way, so a roundhouse kick rarely seems to be a better choice than a punch, because super speed seemingly makes the difference pointless.
>
> Then we have something often overlooked: grappling. For humans, a lot of hand to hand fights tend to get to the ground. There’s a lot we can do to abuse our anatomy, and make someone bigger and stronger unable to move.
The Worm sequal series Ward talks about this a bit. It's main character is a flying brick type who was trained by her family that mainly consists of similar. She talks about how different fighting is when you can self-propel yourself and don't need to push off the ground to generate momentum.
Very true.
Though I must point out that with heroes like Superman usually only one opponent even matters to begin with, most of the mooks could wail on him for a week straight without causing damage.
At some strength levels, grappling would either have no complexity or a greatly reduced moveset.
Look at all those armbars and so on that rely on someone not being able to uproot a similarly-sized attacker with the pinned limb. A super strong person can lift you with their arm while it's twisted awkwardly. Hell, they can lift *themselves* out of the lift if you're solidly planted. Two super strong fighters can't pin each other to the ground by bodyweight because the power-to-weight ratios are entirely different to normal humans. If a person sits on another person's chest, the pinned person is immobilised and maybe even asphyxiated. If a flying brick sits on another flying brick, the second guy can just get up unless the first guy is also super heavy!
A super tough opponent won't be injured by a judo throw like *ippon seoi nage*: they can land at terminal velocity to no effect and even a very strong thrower is putting minimal leverage/force into the downward travel with that kind of move. It's a game changer that with flying bricks the person's own momentum is "safe."
The only super-on-super grapples that would work are things like chokes or headlocks, where the compression itself deals the damage. The throws that would work would be things like professional wrestling throws: arm breakers and the like where the super strong attacker forces their victim against their super strong knee.
My other comment does apply here, about the earth’s crust. That doesn’t make you *wrong* I think, but the strength levels we’re talking about here are enough to outright go through the earth’s crust, which is pretty rare.
Fair enough about pins. A bunch of moves literally don’t work when you’re talking about fantasy musculature, which has arbitrary strength to mass ratios. I suspect that pinning would even work with something like an exoskeleton, despite the power to weight ratio, but for superheroes that have power to weight ratios far in excess of reality you’re probably correct.
And yeah, Superman would have to rely on chokeholds and arm bars. Which you gotta admit are pretty effective. I’ve never seen him break Darkseid’s arm, but I imagine it would help a lot in a fight.
I don't want to come across like I'm arguing against you! Just that wrestling at the superheroic level would look completely different to wrestling at the human level. Still effective, just done differently. You make the perfect analogy in Superman vs Darkseid.
Busting the entire Earth's crust is a very high tier thing to be doing. However, a lot of bricks are just sort of "fine" when they land up crashing into the ground at relatively high speed (human terminal velocity, let's say). They bounce, essentially. A non-flying brick might be vulnerable to a hip throw from another super strong person. However, being thrown doesn't hurt them at all, doesn't stagger them. Unless the thrower lands his victim on a harmful item of scenery or uses the momentum to set up a super-strength hit.
When pinned to the ground then a super strong individual can kind of "dig" on fairly hard surfaces. Not enough to tunnel away, but like when human beings fight in a mud pit: a strong human can use the little bit of give to get a leg under themselves, say. A super strong person could thrash hard enough to bust a normal building's floor and straighten up that way, or just shove a high strength but normal weight opponent off themselves with the "wiggle room" they create.
No, of course not. The points you made I largely agree with. Especially with super powered “bricks” gravity is a non-factor. Realistically they shouldn’t really be able to be “thrown” at all in the same way humans are, but you do see them “fall” in shows because I feel as though authors and animators don’t always think things through fully. Judo would be a non-starter for anyone Superman fights that can also fly.
You’re absolutely right that it would look very different. It might even technically be wrong to call it “wrestling”, it’d be more like a serious of joint locks and grabs — grappling might be a better term with more correct connotations. Superman even might get more out of Hapkido than BJJ.
You’d also end up with some *really* interesting possible positions when the ground can be “beneath” you anywhere. A flying arm bar is suddenly much more viable when you can actually fly.
> Grappling is a fantastic skill to use on just about anything, the less trained the better.
Seems like it might be a problem if the fighters are stronger than the floor, though
I think at some point you eventually reach the dirt which always seems to have enough resistance to make craters.
Meteors can’t punch through the dirt, so you’re at cosmic level threats if you get someone that can casually punch through the earth’s crust like that. At which point… *shrugs*. Idk how much fighting technique even matters at that point. Only example I can think of at that point is Saitama yoinking a dimensional portal.
Would be more of an issue if you’re trying to avoid collateral, but I think fistfighting has roughly equivalent collateral damage anyways.
I would just add, most iterations of batman do use grappling for disarms when he doesn't just batarang the weapon. Also, he is one of the only people, hero or villain, able to sneak up on and through supes with ease. Add to that he's allowed to set foot on themiscaea (spelling) since he's as skilled as Diana. Honestly, the brick houses should learn more. We see what happens when supes doesn't hold back anytime he fights dark side as ds can take it. It would be insane if supes were to bust out some Muay Thai randomly in a fight.
The Justice league trains together regularly, this includes Superman. Usually if he loses to someone in a fighter based on skill it’s not because Superman hasn’t trained, it’s because whoever is fighting him is just a better fighter. Superman usually doesn’t have the time to train every day like a martial artist does, he has day job, a family, and is regularly stopping world ending threats. A good example of this is when a depowered Superman fought Muhammad Ali, there’s really nothing that Clark could have done to the greatest fighter in the world without powers. As for the hulk, it’s often due to a psychological factor; in the hulks mind, he’s the strongest there is. Why would he need to learn to fight if he’ll just get stronger while fighting? You have to remember for most instances, the hulk has maybe 3 or 4 people on the entire planet that are a genuine threat to him at full strength, and usually those people are on his side. He wouldn’t want to train even if one of his personalities had the mental faculties to do so.
Batman!
In 1981, Batman and Hulk actually fought. In order to defeat the Hulk, Batman tried to use sleeping gas. Clever Hulk, however, held his breath. Batman sprung into an acrobatic dropkick to Hulk's solar plexus, forcing him to draw in breath, and fall asleep.
When you have a big enough hammer, every problem starts to look nail shaped.
If you have the raw punching power to wipe out a city, why bother training when a couple solid shots should take care of most opponents easily enough. Get beaten by superior skill? Try again, perhaps with a bigger hammer if you can find one.
Because eventually they do the arc where you lose your powers and suddenly find yourself without the big hammer. Like when Spider-man lost his Spidersense and had to train with Shang-Chi.
Yeah but is that the sort of thing you *plan* for? Should every Superhero have a back-up plan in case they lose their powers? Doyalistically, yes, because it happens to everyone eventually. But in a Watsonian sense, no. That's *so* uncommon for Superheroes that they usually make a big deal out of someone losing their powers, even if for a short time.
*Superman* specifically might want to practice because he loses his powers every third week due to Red Suns, various Kryptonites, or magic spells. That mother fucker had better learn to Judo toss a bitch or pack a pistol in his shorts in case it happens again.
But everyone else? How often does *Hulk* realistically lose his powers? Or Captain Marvel? Or the Kree? Or Mongul or Dark Sied OR...
Way too many people *never* have a moment where they lose their powers (especially with various reboots and retcons wiping away times they may have) so it's not really an issue for most people who's powers include Flight, Invulnerability, super Strength, and Speed (or FISS for short).
Not to mention, who is going to train you? Just learning to control your strength is going to be a battle for most people. It would be very difficult to learn martial arts from someone you could punch through as if they were tissue paper.
A brick needs to learn from someone durable, strong, or super humanly skilled enough to actually teach them.
Frequently they *do* learn these sorts of skills. See [Boxing Lessons for Superman](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoxingLessonsForSuperman).
There are various reasons why a character might not though. For example, there may not be other people of a similar strength that they can train with. If they have a secret identity, they may not be able to train without compromising their identity. Perhaps they simply don't have the time for it.
most super strong heroes have to hold back to not kill their opponent.
most martial arts minimise the strength required to defeat the opponent, now the hero needs to concentrate more on holding back in order not to kill.
I'll always remember a comic where Doc Ock took over Spidermans body and nearly tore the jaw off of a guy he punched. The realization of how much Spiderman holds back when fighting him blew his mind.
That’s one of the irritating parts of the various Spider-Man games. Spidey should be tearing through the regular bad guys, but instead it plays like you’re Batman with some Spidey gadgets.
Someone who can lift 10 tons or survive falling off a skyscraper shouldn’t be able to get bodied by a dude with a baseball bat.
For most supers, it would be difficult to find a trainer able to teach them anything, because they can simply do better by using brute force. I mean, sure, a flying back kick looks cool, but I don't need to do that when I can just hit the guy with a bus or grab him and toss him into the sun.
"OK, the first thing you need to learn is how to fall without being hurt."
"I can literally fall from space and land in a volcano without being hurt."
"Alright, I'm going to throw you over my shoulder, and you show me how you'd land."
"You know, last week a guy threw me through the Chrysler building. I got up and kicked him into orbit. He's still up there."
Spiderman didn't train either bc he had spider sense until he lost the spidersense and then had to train with Shang Chi and that was the whole way of the spider storyline
If your likely opponents are equivalent in strength then you need martial arts. If your opponent's are equivalent to coughing babies then you don't bother. If your opponent is equivalent to an elephant then martial arts won't help. The crazy thing about superheros is that you can't tell if an opponent is a coughing baby or an elephant until they punch you in the face.
It's kinda hard to learn martial arts without a trainer/sparring partner that's roughly as strong as if not stronger than you, and even then not a lot of it works as intended off the ground.
Though now I can picture a character with flying powers using them to deliver a suplex that would make Sabin envious.
Martial arts training is a serious time commitment, and frankly it just won't add any noticeable benefit based on how most of these heroes' powers work. A lot of martial arts is using principals of leverage to adopt stances that make you harder to knock down, or add more of your body weight to your hits to make them hit harder, or using fewer muscles more efficiently to make your hits faster. Unless a person's power is gravity/mass manipulation, you're talking about an extra ~20lbs of force, which to most supers is just negligible. Especially for e.g. the Viltrumites. They manipulate force directly, you'd need extremely sensitive equipment to even detect the difference having a better stance would make on whether something will knock them down or how hard they hit.
That shouldn’t be the case — the effect martial arts has on your striking power is compounded by you strength; the stronger you are, the more a kinetic chain will amplify your strikes, not the opposite.
Granted a lot of this doesn’t apply when you aren’t on the ground and don’t rely upon skeletomuscular structure to generate force, so there’s that… but if you rely upon your muscles to generate force martial arts is literally just optimizing how to use those muscles.
They actually have kinda answered this, at least in the Injustice comics. They have [Captain Atom fighting Superman](https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/captain-atom-on-fighting.jpg), and he actually calls out [why heavy hitters just punch each other](https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/captain-atom-on-fighting-2.jpg). The simple answer is [because it's fun](https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/captain-atom-on-fighting-3.jpg).
Superman is kinda infinitely stronger than he generally lets on. but he WANTs to be a human guy flying around regular punching people. He doesn't WANT to be an eldritch monster that can fly faster than light and travel through time and lobotomize people secretly and use mind control and split himself into copies and stuff like that. His powerset is insanely stronger than his normal actions, but he doesn't want to be that thing. He wants to be a hero but not a god.
Funnily enough, the comic series "empowered" comments on this at one point. One of the main characters, who's a ninja, tells her friend that all the mainline heroes fight like toddlers because all they do is throw straight punches.
At least for Superman, he doesn't need it a lot of the time, because his strength is so overwhelming that he doesn't need to increase it. If anything, quite the opposite, since he's mentioned having to constantly hold himself back so that he doesn't do some major damage unintentionally.
Learning martial arts would go against his aims, and there's also the question of how well he could learn martial arts when his raw strength far outclasses anything that he could learn from or train against.
It's brought up a few times. Beyond the examples mentioned here, there was that time Hercules beat Thor by disarming him, and then engaging him in a wrestle match. In armed combat, Thor is one of the most skilled beings on earth, both mortal and divine, but in unarmed combat he doesn't have the same experice, which Hercules, being Greek naked wrestling, was an expert in.
So, martial arts does matter time to time, but it's rare that Thor can't win a battle by just hammering harder
Keep in mind that "martial arts" does not mean "unarmed combat"!
Most of what we call martial arts today uses a mix of unnamed and armed combat. "European martial arts" used mainly weapons, as does Kendo.
Hercules and Thor both know martial arts, though with different specifications. Original Hulk did not use any martial arts. Wolverine knows many martial arts, probably including a self-made one for the effective use of his claws. Even Hawkeye's archery is basically a martial art.
Because it works.
90% of problems can be solved with overwhelming power.
For the other 10% you either have something up your sleeve or you leave it to someone else.
The Hulk isn't stupid.
Believing that is a big mistake.
The Hulk relies on brute strength because it works, he can plan out his attacks when nessissary and surprise his opponents.
Banner is whispering in Hulks ear
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The easiest answer without a bunch of trivia is they really never need to based on who they're fighting. Superman for example, outside of probably Darkseid and Mongal, he's not going up against many trained threats where a side kick or something would help.
My personal, boring reason is well, Superman can already do damn near everything, does he need to be a trained martial artist on top?
And Hulk is well, a beast, a wild animal. Learning a discipline and having the patience of a fighter would nearly turn him into a completely different character. His mindless rage is part of the appeal.
I don’t know if you watch anime, but there is a show/manga called One Punch Man where the protagonist (Saitama) is essentially the strongest being on the planet and a super hero. One of the other top strongest superheroes is a martial artist who offers to teach Saitama, only to realize just how pointless his lessons are for him.
And I think that’s what it would be for any flying brick unless they have other people that regularly match or exceed their strength. As a human, I throw a jab instead of a cross because I want to get through someone’s guard or distract them while I set up the cross. Different strikes and combinations are about setting people up for a good hit, wearing past their defense, minimizing risk of me getting hit, and generating more power or speed from my body.
If i could punch through a building at speeds fast enough to dodge bullets while able to handle the building falling on top of me, none of that is needed. If anything, I’d be better off learning acrobatics, yoga, or dance, so I could better control my body and minimize collateral destruction.
That makes sense in the OPM universe where Saitama only has like 2-3 people that even make him try. But Superman has dozens, same in Marvel. or another major universe that has a ton of heroes.
And Superman eventually learned Kryptonian martial arts, trained with Wonder Woman, Batman, etc. But he still doesn’t need to pull that kind of fighting out for smashing a few robots or whatever his day to day fighting is. Just against people like Lobo or Darkside or Shazam.
Do they need to?
When you are strong enough to punch through a tank and are tough enough to have an armor-piercing anti-armor round hit you with zero effect, do you really need to learn proper technique?
Now, granted Superman did eventually learn.
Often times there just isn't a need to push to that standard. Skill gaps are typically overrated in the face of raw stat monsters.
Skill gaps only come into play when the opponents are close enough in basic capability. Particularly if one party has such endurance that they can afford to just take hits coming in.
I think typically you get people who focus more on this stuff when their goal is power itself, something superheroes rarely are. Lindon from Cradle has a whole arc where he lets a clan of elites, who are still weaker than him stat wise, beat the shit out of him for 6 months because he recognises that they have skills he doesn't have. Lindon is borderline power crazed though.
In a lot of cases they have no one to reliably spar with so it would make learning martial arts quite difficult.
Also a lot of martial arts are about maximising impact and damage of certain strikes which is counter to what a character like superman has to do on a daily basis which would make the process more difficult.
In less extremely powerful cases of flying brick they're usually in a world with less competition or accept their small fry status but would still encounter the problems mentioned above.
Martial arts comes from this idea of how I'm gonna defend myself from someone stronger or someone armed, how do I better use my strenght. Superman is so strong he's basically putting more effort in to not instantly killing everyone than to punch some guy; at this point the question isn't how to fight, is how can I be weaker.
There's this Nightwing comic where he's training Jon, and he says that, if someone tried to punch him, Nightwing would block it, but if Superman does that, the other guy breaks his own arm. So all the training is basically Nightwing showing Superman how to disarm someone without break their arm in the process.
Martial arts mostly revolve around three general goals:
1) Maximize the efficiency of your attacks.
2) Minimize the damage you take when attacked.
3) Maintain control of the situation.
Characters like Superman don't really need to worry so much about 1) and 2). "More powerful than a locomotive" tends to make efficiency a non-issue; he doesn't really need to learn proper technique when hitting him in the chest and forearm are both about as effective (which is to say, not at all) and if he is just as dangerous whether he's throwing a straight punch or a roundhouse.
The third point is the only bit that has any real merit to a superstrong character. Learning how to properly gauge themselves so they don't cause more damage than is needed and don't lose their cool and make a bad situation worse.
But as that third part is mostly more of a *mental* than physical discipline, there's not necessarily any point to them learning a martial art *specifically* for that purpose. Why go out of your way to learn Judo when it's so much more cost-effective to, say, practice handling glass bottles without breaking them?
Superman knows kryptonian martial arts.
Hulk was trained by Iron Fist.
Thor is actually very well trained in Asgardian combat techniques.
Icon was in the military and well trained in unarmed and armed combat, having fought in major conflicts ranging from the Civil War to World War II.
Blue Marvel is a former marine.
Zod was a military general.
Omni-Man had training, he had to in order to get the upper hand against other Viltrumites.
Wonder Woman is *Wonder Woman.*
Which flying bricks without training are you referring to? Homelander? Fair.
Shazam maybe? He has the wisdom of Solomon, that might translate.
> it's largely whatever the writer and/or the creative team creates... It's his shortcomings that lends them to some really great team-up stories
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I don't know, dude.
Even in real life, martial arts can only do so much. They don't usually allow you to beat someone who is much, much stronger than you, they just allow you to temporarily surprise stronger adversaries and get an edge on similarly-powerful adversaries. But Superman usually already IS the stronger combatant when he fights already, and his challenges tend to be of another nature (Lex being sneaky and always technically-legal, Parasite sapping his powers, the Legion of Doom attacking in multiple places at once, etc).
But also: even in the few situations where he is fighting sinilarly powered foes, would traditional martial arts even work at the powerscale that Superman or The Hulk fight at? With punches that can probably cause small quakes and such? I feel like most of the moves wouldn't even be applicable. When Doomsday comes charging in with a punch so powerful it can crack the ground, should Superman really judo wrestle him into said ground? He's proba ly coming at him so fast it might just break a hole a few kms deep, not sure that's a good thing. Might be better for Superman to just tank it, try to hold it with his own fist or just trade blows at that point, I don't know.
Who would train them? And with what equipment? Sups gets in a fight with Darkseid, muscle memory takes over, pulls his punch like he would with a merely mortal trainer, does no damage.
Except in most continuities Superman dosnt know how to fight well aside from sometimes having kryptonian martial arts that he doesn't use and gets outclassed. Hulk not flying but lumping him into the category of flying brick is simply because I didn't want to write out "Characters with extreme strength and speed but lack any basic understanding of fighting"
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Because most of the Time they are flying and many things like kicking or grappling or throwing you need a leverage to be effective , so many just need to learn boxing
punching is the art of pushing off with your feet, and transferring the power to your fist.
if you're flying you are pushing off with your flying power, and transferring that to your fist. oni man shows some close range technique on that point, but it's hard to beat the force of a flying haymaker.
I think the trouble is that human martial arts are designed for humans. Not flying demigods. Leverage and momentum all tend to change a bit when you can fly.
The truth is, skill is a minor factor in fighting, regardless of what martial artists might say. Strength is the deciding factor in the vast majority of fights. The only time skill matters whatsoever is when raw power is controlled for. Hence, weight classes in boxing, MMA, etc. Even then, conditioning is often what wins the fight, not some esoteric combat maneuver. Also - pure skill training has rapidly diminishing returns. You can learn all the legal MMA moves in a few weeks. Practicing them for 10 years doesn't make you 10x better at fighting than you were after a few weeks. Conditioning is what makes you better. For superheroes, the massive strength/endurance/speed differentials render anything beyond basic skill training moot.
Tbh a lot of fighting is just practicing fighting. They all have tons and tons of experience and experience is all you really need. You could easily get plenty of martial training just street fighting, assuming you survive. Thats what Christian Bale Batman did before he became a ninja as far as I could tell.
Honestly Superman is normally shown to have a pretty solid slugger style coupled with some
Ju jitsu (he really likes standing arm locks), simple but effective.
More complex techniques are honestly impractical for the amount of time he has to train his fighting skills, his moves are efficient and simple to execute. Police CQC reasoning, when you’ve not got the time to be down at the dojo for three hours a day.
It’s super strength not super motivation. I love martial arts and am too lazy/nervous to pick up training again.
I’ll give you most super hero’s aren’t written to be depressed/anxious normal people.
Train with who, exactly?
Hulk in 'Incredible' mode isn't really the kind of guy who plans. Superman would likely cripple anyone he tried to train with if his attention slipped in the slightest. Ben Grimm is a flat out brawler, it's what he grew up doing and what he's best at.
I recall a Marvel Teamup book from the '70s where Shang Chi found Ben, and had no idea who or what he was (As often as this happens, the FF really needs to get a Publicist) and attacked with all his 'Master of Kung Fu' skills.
Ben barely noticed and suggested that Shang Chi might want to calm down.
The way I see it is that such heroes need to train with who can reasonably survive getting hit, which means that the number of people available to teach them are few, if any.
Superman is just so overpowerer, those punches probably just felt like a light spanking to him. He probably like it because it is so damn rare and no one ever spanked him.
He is often not serious in a fight to begin with.
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Superman knows Kryptonian martial arts. Hulk doesn't have the intelligence or patience to learn martial arts. Characters like Homelander hasn't had to face any real challenges to their power. It's the same for most really strong brutes.
Superman got lessons from Muhammad Ali
And Batman
And Mongul (Mongul's son who was actually just Mongul)
Mongul just pawn in game of life.
> Mongul *Hal Jordan wants to know your location*
Can you explain the reference?
Mongul and Cyborg-Superman obliterated Coast City and drove Hal Jordan insane.
I totally forgot Mongul was part of that and just kinda remembered it as henshaw being the responsible party.
Was this part of the death and return of? I'm not remembering this part.. which to be fair was like 23 years ago at least.
yes..... the destruction of coast city was to create the first of many war world engines (thus Mongul's role) that would turn earth into a new war world but Henshaw was just using Mongul as a pawn...... although I can't remember exactly how bc they did in fact seem like they were turning coast city into a new war world. Maybe Henshaw was going to be in charge of the new War World I don't remember Crazy times to be a comic fan and they totally went with all the events back then for years.... We got Kyle rayner and hal's destruction of the core.... soon after was the whole bane thing and azrael it was awesome it lasted years and they went with it.... now they'd just go back to how it was in a day
It's also important to note that Hal Jordan went insane to such a degree that he used his ring powers to recreate the entirety of Coast City. Then he became evil, then he died, then he became Spectre (God's angel of death and vengeance, sort of). I remember comic stores handing out the cyborg/steel/superboy comics during free comic day back then.
Wasn’t it more that he got schooled by Ali? As in very hands on learning?
Both. He trained with Ali because he was supposed to fight an alien in a boxing match on a planet with a red sun that would drain his powers. Then when that plan didn't work out the two of them had a match to decide who would be Earth's champion, and Ali beat him.
Hulk smash, if that doesn't work he just gets angrier and smashes harder.
Sooner or later that works
Usually sooner.
Before the New52 universe reboot, Superman started training in Kryptonian martial arts, and it gave him some sort of psychic abilities he didn’t like, so he stopped.
That’s like how CrossFit causes you to tell everyone that you do CrossFit.
Bank roof blows open to expose Superman descending on a group of would be bank robbers. Superman: “Have you guys heard of Kryptonian CrossFit? You should stop by the local box and try some burpees.”
Just take me to jail, Superman.
Judge I sentence you to 12 years of CrossFit lectures.
Torquasm Vo, the ability attack a person's psyche. And it's defensive counterpart, Torquasm-Rao.
Hulk was taught martial arts by Danny Rand to fight Red Hulk
He actually did at one point, get martial arts training from Iron Fist.
hulk isn't dumb and depending on the story sometimes he very smart. its more or less just anger issues/rage he just wants to smash
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You can make MMA plenty cinematic. Look at a fight like [Minotauro vs Bob Sapp](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyYLwL7Yj3A&t=7s&pp=ygUVbWlub3RhdXJvIHZzIGJvYiBzYXBw), and tell me it isn't cinematic. Or read a comic like Baki the Grappler.
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Please remember that discussions on this subreddit are required to be strictly Watsonian. Saying something is so because it's more cinematic is not appropriate in an answer. Thanks.
ACTUALLY the first of the marvel hulk movies. He knew and fought using tai chi and other martial arts.
The hell are you talking about
Edward Norton's hulk. Hulk used martial arts. You can see how smooth his fighting is vs abom.
I don’t remember that at all. Also Incredible Hulk isn’t the first hulk movie. Actually, it’s the LAST one lmao
In the start you don’t need to. Your strength just outclasses anyone else. Then you meet someone on your level, and you realise that maybe throwing a hard punch isn’t the end-all. But now what? To learn a martial art, you need to spar. This means you need someone friendly on your level. If you don’t, there’s honestly not much to gain from it. The Justice League has that, and notably, Superman and Wonderman at the very least are highly trained. But let’s say you don’t have that. Why not learn a human martial art? Well, they’re not that useful for most heroes. For most flying bricks, it seems like force of will always trumps kinetic motion. They seemingly don’t generate energy through motion in the same way, so a roundhouse kick rarely seems to be a better choice than a punch, because super speed seemingly makes the difference pointless. Then we have something often overlooked: grappling. For humans, a lot of hand to hand fights tend to get to the ground. There’s a lot we can do to abuse our anatomy, and make someone bigger and stronger unable to move. I see two problems with this for flying bricks. One is that fights rarely reach the ground - because well, they fly. They often have or fight people with secondary powers, and grappling just isn’t the same when your opponent can shoot lasers. The other is anatomy. Grapples are about utilising nerves and muscles in the *human* body. Superman looks human, but is he affected in the same ways? And then we have people like Martian Manhunter who is a damn shapeshifter. TL;DR: Martial arts tend to only be useful when you have someone on your level to spar with.
>One is that fights rarely reach the ground - because well, they fly. They often have or fight people with secondary powers, and grappling just isn’t the same when your opponent can shoot lasers. Also they are stronger than the floor
"Whenever I need to hit someone, I hit them with the largest weapon I can find: the ground." Until you have the power, and your opponent the durability, to get drilled through hundreds of meters of rock.
>Until you have the power, and your opponent the durability, to get drilled through hundreds of meters of rock. That sounds kinky.
> In the start you don’t need to. Your strength just outclasses anyone else. > > > > Then you meet someone on your level, and you realise that maybe throwing a hard punch isn’t the end-all. But now what? Thats what happened when Hulk met Thanos. He finally met the one person he couldn't Hulk smash and win against. Thanos had the combination of strength and technique that mopped the floor with Hulk. Thanos, even without all of the stones in his possession, mopped the floor so easily with Hulk it was just a sparring match. His bodyguards did not intervene because they didn't need to, and because their master enjoys that kind of practice. They didn't want to ruin Thanos' fun. Hulk was utterly traumatized by it, and took a while to recover to be willing to fight again.
> For most flying bricks, it seems like force of will always trumps kinetic motion. They seemingly don’t generate energy through motion in the same way, so a roundhouse kick rarely seems to be a better choice than a punch, because super speed seemingly makes the difference pointless. > > Then we have something often overlooked: grappling. For humans, a lot of hand to hand fights tend to get to the ground. There’s a lot we can do to abuse our anatomy, and make someone bigger and stronger unable to move. The Worm sequal series Ward talks about this a bit. It's main character is a flying brick type who was trained by her family that mainly consists of similar. She talks about how different fighting is when you can self-propel yourself and don't need to push off the ground to generate momentum.
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> Grappling is a fantastic skill to use on just about anything As long as there is only one opponent.
Very true. Though I must point out that with heroes like Superman usually only one opponent even matters to begin with, most of the mooks could wail on him for a week straight without causing damage.
At some strength levels, grappling would either have no complexity or a greatly reduced moveset. Look at all those armbars and so on that rely on someone not being able to uproot a similarly-sized attacker with the pinned limb. A super strong person can lift you with their arm while it's twisted awkwardly. Hell, they can lift *themselves* out of the lift if you're solidly planted. Two super strong fighters can't pin each other to the ground by bodyweight because the power-to-weight ratios are entirely different to normal humans. If a person sits on another person's chest, the pinned person is immobilised and maybe even asphyxiated. If a flying brick sits on another flying brick, the second guy can just get up unless the first guy is also super heavy! A super tough opponent won't be injured by a judo throw like *ippon seoi nage*: they can land at terminal velocity to no effect and even a very strong thrower is putting minimal leverage/force into the downward travel with that kind of move. It's a game changer that with flying bricks the person's own momentum is "safe." The only super-on-super grapples that would work are things like chokes or headlocks, where the compression itself deals the damage. The throws that would work would be things like professional wrestling throws: arm breakers and the like where the super strong attacker forces their victim against their super strong knee.
My other comment does apply here, about the earth’s crust. That doesn’t make you *wrong* I think, but the strength levels we’re talking about here are enough to outright go through the earth’s crust, which is pretty rare. Fair enough about pins. A bunch of moves literally don’t work when you’re talking about fantasy musculature, which has arbitrary strength to mass ratios. I suspect that pinning would even work with something like an exoskeleton, despite the power to weight ratio, but for superheroes that have power to weight ratios far in excess of reality you’re probably correct. And yeah, Superman would have to rely on chokeholds and arm bars. Which you gotta admit are pretty effective. I’ve never seen him break Darkseid’s arm, but I imagine it would help a lot in a fight.
I don't want to come across like I'm arguing against you! Just that wrestling at the superheroic level would look completely different to wrestling at the human level. Still effective, just done differently. You make the perfect analogy in Superman vs Darkseid. Busting the entire Earth's crust is a very high tier thing to be doing. However, a lot of bricks are just sort of "fine" when they land up crashing into the ground at relatively high speed (human terminal velocity, let's say). They bounce, essentially. A non-flying brick might be vulnerable to a hip throw from another super strong person. However, being thrown doesn't hurt them at all, doesn't stagger them. Unless the thrower lands his victim on a harmful item of scenery or uses the momentum to set up a super-strength hit. When pinned to the ground then a super strong individual can kind of "dig" on fairly hard surfaces. Not enough to tunnel away, but like when human beings fight in a mud pit: a strong human can use the little bit of give to get a leg under themselves, say. A super strong person could thrash hard enough to bust a normal building's floor and straighten up that way, or just shove a high strength but normal weight opponent off themselves with the "wiggle room" they create.
No, of course not. The points you made I largely agree with. Especially with super powered “bricks” gravity is a non-factor. Realistically they shouldn’t really be able to be “thrown” at all in the same way humans are, but you do see them “fall” in shows because I feel as though authors and animators don’t always think things through fully. Judo would be a non-starter for anyone Superman fights that can also fly. You’re absolutely right that it would look very different. It might even technically be wrong to call it “wrestling”, it’d be more like a serious of joint locks and grabs — grappling might be a better term with more correct connotations. Superman even might get more out of Hapkido than BJJ. You’d also end up with some *really* interesting possible positions when the ground can be “beneath” you anywhere. A flying arm bar is suddenly much more viable when you can actually fly.
> Grappling is a fantastic skill to use on just about anything, the less trained the better. Seems like it might be a problem if the fighters are stronger than the floor, though
I think at some point you eventually reach the dirt which always seems to have enough resistance to make craters. Meteors can’t punch through the dirt, so you’re at cosmic level threats if you get someone that can casually punch through the earth’s crust like that. At which point… *shrugs*. Idk how much fighting technique even matters at that point. Only example I can think of at that point is Saitama yoinking a dimensional portal. Would be more of an issue if you’re trying to avoid collateral, but I think fistfighting has roughly equivalent collateral damage anyways.
I would just add, most iterations of batman do use grappling for disarms when he doesn't just batarang the weapon. Also, he is one of the only people, hero or villain, able to sneak up on and through supes with ease. Add to that he's allowed to set foot on themiscaea (spelling) since he's as skilled as Diana. Honestly, the brick houses should learn more. We see what happens when supes doesn't hold back anytime he fights dark side as ds can take it. It would be insane if supes were to bust out some Muay Thai randomly in a fight.
The Justice league trains together regularly, this includes Superman. Usually if he loses to someone in a fighter based on skill it’s not because Superman hasn’t trained, it’s because whoever is fighting him is just a better fighter. Superman usually doesn’t have the time to train every day like a martial artist does, he has day job, a family, and is regularly stopping world ending threats. A good example of this is when a depowered Superman fought Muhammad Ali, there’s really nothing that Clark could have done to the greatest fighter in the world without powers. As for the hulk, it’s often due to a psychological factor; in the hulks mind, he’s the strongest there is. Why would he need to learn to fight if he’ll just get stronger while fighting? You have to remember for most instances, the hulk has maybe 3 or 4 people on the entire planet that are a genuine threat to him at full strength, and usually those people are on his side. He wouldn’t want to train even if one of his personalities had the mental faculties to do so.
Who is doing Muay Tai on the Hulk?
Thanos did a classic clinch and high knee to him.
Imagine Thanos saying “OOWEE” and teeping hulk
Batman! In 1981, Batman and Hulk actually fought. In order to defeat the Hulk, Batman tried to use sleeping gas. Clever Hulk, however, held his breath. Batman sprung into an acrobatic dropkick to Hulk's solar plexus, forcing him to draw in breath, and fall asleep.
Iron Fist?
Iron Fist trained the Hulk.
When you have a big enough hammer, every problem starts to look nail shaped. If you have the raw punching power to wipe out a city, why bother training when a couple solid shots should take care of most opponents easily enough. Get beaten by superior skill? Try again, perhaps with a bigger hammer if you can find one.
Because eventually they do the arc where you lose your powers and suddenly find yourself without the big hammer. Like when Spider-man lost his Spidersense and had to train with Shang-Chi.
Yeah but is that the sort of thing you *plan* for? Should every Superhero have a back-up plan in case they lose their powers? Doyalistically, yes, because it happens to everyone eventually. But in a Watsonian sense, no. That's *so* uncommon for Superheroes that they usually make a big deal out of someone losing their powers, even if for a short time. *Superman* specifically might want to practice because he loses his powers every third week due to Red Suns, various Kryptonites, or magic spells. That mother fucker had better learn to Judo toss a bitch or pack a pistol in his shorts in case it happens again. But everyone else? How often does *Hulk* realistically lose his powers? Or Captain Marvel? Or the Kree? Or Mongul or Dark Sied OR... Way too many people *never* have a moment where they lose their powers (especially with various reboots and retcons wiping away times they may have) so it's not really an issue for most people who's powers include Flight, Invulnerability, super Strength, and Speed (or FISS for short).
Did you just quote the flavor text of Third Path Iconoclast on purpose?
The hammer/nail thing is an extremely common saying.
Not to mention, who is going to train you? Just learning to control your strength is going to be a battle for most people. It would be very difficult to learn martial arts from someone you could punch through as if they were tissue paper. A brick needs to learn from someone durable, strong, or super humanly skilled enough to actually teach them.
Frequently they *do* learn these sorts of skills. See [Boxing Lessons for Superman](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoxingLessonsForSuperman). There are various reasons why a character might not though. For example, there may not be other people of a similar strength that they can train with. If they have a secret identity, they may not be able to train without compromising their identity. Perhaps they simply don't have the time for it.
Who is going to teach Krav Maga to the Hulk? Would you?
If I knew it, sure.
IT? Hulk is a PERSON tyvm
If I knew Krav Maga.
whoosh
It's Reddit, odds of your response being either pedantry or nitpicking are pretty high. It's not exactly obvious you're joking
most super strong heroes have to hold back to not kill their opponent. most martial arts minimise the strength required to defeat the opponent, now the hero needs to concentrate more on holding back in order not to kill.
My man Hulk out here doing Judo flips on his opponent so he doesn't flat out splatter their faces! LOL
I'll always remember a comic where Doc Ock took over Spidermans body and nearly tore the jaw off of a guy he punched. The realization of how much Spiderman holds back when fighting him blew his mind.
That’s one of the irritating parts of the various Spider-Man games. Spidey should be tearing through the regular bad guys, but instead it plays like you’re Batman with some Spidey gadgets. Someone who can lift 10 tons or survive falling off a skyscraper shouldn’t be able to get bodied by a dude with a baseball bat.
People forgot Spiderman has superstrength some time in the early 2000s and never remembered.
For most supers, it would be difficult to find a trainer able to teach them anything, because they can simply do better by using brute force. I mean, sure, a flying back kick looks cool, but I don't need to do that when I can just hit the guy with a bus or grab him and toss him into the sun. "OK, the first thing you need to learn is how to fall without being hurt." "I can literally fall from space and land in a volcano without being hurt." "Alright, I'm going to throw you over my shoulder, and you show me how you'd land." "You know, last week a guy threw me through the Chrysler building. I got up and kicked him into orbit. He's still up there."
“When all else fails, throw them into space”
Spiderman didn't train either bc he had spider sense until he lost the spidersense and then had to train with Shang Chi and that was the whole way of the spider storyline
If your likely opponents are equivalent in strength then you need martial arts. If your opponent's are equivalent to coughing babies then you don't bother. If your opponent is equivalent to an elephant then martial arts won't help. The crazy thing about superheros is that you can't tell if an opponent is a coughing baby or an elephant until they punch you in the face.
It's kinda hard to learn martial arts without a trainer/sparring partner that's roughly as strong as if not stronger than you, and even then not a lot of it works as intended off the ground. Though now I can picture a character with flying powers using them to deliver a suplex that would make Sabin envious.
Superman has martial arts and fight training, but writers rarely show it.
Martial arts training is a serious time commitment, and frankly it just won't add any noticeable benefit based on how most of these heroes' powers work. A lot of martial arts is using principals of leverage to adopt stances that make you harder to knock down, or add more of your body weight to your hits to make them hit harder, or using fewer muscles more efficiently to make your hits faster. Unless a person's power is gravity/mass manipulation, you're talking about an extra ~20lbs of force, which to most supers is just negligible. Especially for e.g. the Viltrumites. They manipulate force directly, you'd need extremely sensitive equipment to even detect the difference having a better stance would make on whether something will knock them down or how hard they hit.
That shouldn’t be the case — the effect martial arts has on your striking power is compounded by you strength; the stronger you are, the more a kinetic chain will amplify your strikes, not the opposite. Granted a lot of this doesn’t apply when you aren’t on the ground and don’t rely upon skeletomuscular structure to generate force, so there’s that… but if you rely upon your muscles to generate force martial arts is literally just optimizing how to use those muscles.
They actually have kinda answered this, at least in the Injustice comics. They have [Captain Atom fighting Superman](https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/captain-atom-on-fighting.jpg), and he actually calls out [why heavy hitters just punch each other](https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/captain-atom-on-fighting-2.jpg). The simple answer is [because it's fun](https://comicnewbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/captain-atom-on-fighting-3.jpg).
Superman is kinda infinitely stronger than he generally lets on. but he WANTs to be a human guy flying around regular punching people. He doesn't WANT to be an eldritch monster that can fly faster than light and travel through time and lobotomize people secretly and use mind control and split himself into copies and stuff like that. His powerset is insanely stronger than his normal actions, but he doesn't want to be that thing. He wants to be a hero but not a god.
Funnily enough, the comic series "empowered" comments on this at one point. One of the main characters, who's a ninja, tells her friend that all the mainline heroes fight like toddlers because all they do is throw straight punches.
Have you ever tried to "outskill" a bear or a tiger.
Bears can't chess box. I'd definitely win on points.
At least for Superman, he doesn't need it a lot of the time, because his strength is so overwhelming that he doesn't need to increase it. If anything, quite the opposite, since he's mentioned having to constantly hold himself back so that he doesn't do some major damage unintentionally. Learning martial arts would go against his aims, and there's also the question of how well he could learn martial arts when his raw strength far outclasses anything that he could learn from or train against.
Because there already physically superior to everyone just punch them as hard as you can your done
It's brought up a few times. Beyond the examples mentioned here, there was that time Hercules beat Thor by disarming him, and then engaging him in a wrestle match. In armed combat, Thor is one of the most skilled beings on earth, both mortal and divine, but in unarmed combat he doesn't have the same experice, which Hercules, being Greek naked wrestling, was an expert in. So, martial arts does matter time to time, but it's rare that Thor can't win a battle by just hammering harder
Keep in mind that "martial arts" does not mean "unarmed combat"! Most of what we call martial arts today uses a mix of unnamed and armed combat. "European martial arts" used mainly weapons, as does Kendo. Hercules and Thor both know martial arts, though with different specifications. Original Hulk did not use any martial arts. Wolverine knows many martial arts, probably including a self-made one for the effective use of his claws. Even Hawkeye's archery is basically a martial art.
Because it works. 90% of problems can be solved with overwhelming power. For the other 10% you either have something up your sleeve or you leave it to someone else.
The Hulk isn't stupid. Believing that is a big mistake. The Hulk relies on brute strength because it works, he can plan out his attacks when nessissary and surprise his opponents. Banner is whispering in Hulks ear
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The easiest answer without a bunch of trivia is they really never need to based on who they're fighting. Superman for example, outside of probably Darkseid and Mongal, he's not going up against many trained threats where a side kick or something would help. My personal, boring reason is well, Superman can already do damn near everything, does he need to be a trained martial artist on top? And Hulk is well, a beast, a wild animal. Learning a discipline and having the patience of a fighter would nearly turn him into a completely different character. His mindless rage is part of the appeal.
I don’t know if you watch anime, but there is a show/manga called One Punch Man where the protagonist (Saitama) is essentially the strongest being on the planet and a super hero. One of the other top strongest superheroes is a martial artist who offers to teach Saitama, only to realize just how pointless his lessons are for him. And I think that’s what it would be for any flying brick unless they have other people that regularly match or exceed their strength. As a human, I throw a jab instead of a cross because I want to get through someone’s guard or distract them while I set up the cross. Different strikes and combinations are about setting people up for a good hit, wearing past their defense, minimizing risk of me getting hit, and generating more power or speed from my body. If i could punch through a building at speeds fast enough to dodge bullets while able to handle the building falling on top of me, none of that is needed. If anything, I’d be better off learning acrobatics, yoga, or dance, so I could better control my body and minimize collateral destruction.
That makes sense in the OPM universe where Saitama only has like 2-3 people that even make him try. But Superman has dozens, same in Marvel. or another major universe that has a ton of heroes.
And Superman eventually learned Kryptonian martial arts, trained with Wonder Woman, Batman, etc. But he still doesn’t need to pull that kind of fighting out for smashing a few robots or whatever his day to day fighting is. Just against people like Lobo or Darkside or Shazam.
Do they need to? When you are strong enough to punch through a tank and are tough enough to have an armor-piercing anti-armor round hit you with zero effect, do you really need to learn proper technique? Now, granted Superman did eventually learn.
Often times there just isn't a need to push to that standard. Skill gaps are typically overrated in the face of raw stat monsters. Skill gaps only come into play when the opponents are close enough in basic capability. Particularly if one party has such endurance that they can afford to just take hits coming in. I think typically you get people who focus more on this stuff when their goal is power itself, something superheroes rarely are. Lindon from Cradle has a whole arc where he lets a clan of elites, who are still weaker than him stat wise, beat the shit out of him for 6 months because he recognises that they have skills he doesn't have. Lindon is borderline power crazed though.
In a lot of cases they have no one to reliably spar with so it would make learning martial arts quite difficult. Also a lot of martial arts are about maximising impact and damage of certain strikes which is counter to what a character like superman has to do on a daily basis which would make the process more difficult. In less extremely powerful cases of flying brick they're usually in a world with less competition or accept their small fry status but would still encounter the problems mentioned above.
Martial arts comes from this idea of how I'm gonna defend myself from someone stronger or someone armed, how do I better use my strenght. Superman is so strong he's basically putting more effort in to not instantly killing everyone than to punch some guy; at this point the question isn't how to fight, is how can I be weaker. There's this Nightwing comic where he's training Jon, and he says that, if someone tried to punch him, Nightwing would block it, but if Superman does that, the other guy breaks his own arm. So all the training is basically Nightwing showing Superman how to disarm someone without break their arm in the process.
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Sorry, but your "out of universe" explanations are not appropriate for this subreddit, as we require answers to be strictly Watsonian.
Martial arts mostly revolve around three general goals: 1) Maximize the efficiency of your attacks. 2) Minimize the damage you take when attacked. 3) Maintain control of the situation. Characters like Superman don't really need to worry so much about 1) and 2). "More powerful than a locomotive" tends to make efficiency a non-issue; he doesn't really need to learn proper technique when hitting him in the chest and forearm are both about as effective (which is to say, not at all) and if he is just as dangerous whether he's throwing a straight punch or a roundhouse. The third point is the only bit that has any real merit to a superstrong character. Learning how to properly gauge themselves so they don't cause more damage than is needed and don't lose their cool and make a bad situation worse. But as that third part is mostly more of a *mental* than physical discipline, there's not necessarily any point to them learning a martial art *specifically* for that purpose. Why go out of your way to learn Judo when it's so much more cost-effective to, say, practice handling glass bottles without breaking them?
Superman knows kryptonian martial arts. Hulk was trained by Iron Fist. Thor is actually very well trained in Asgardian combat techniques. Icon was in the military and well trained in unarmed and armed combat, having fought in major conflicts ranging from the Civil War to World War II. Blue Marvel is a former marine. Zod was a military general. Omni-Man had training, he had to in order to get the upper hand against other Viltrumites. Wonder Woman is *Wonder Woman.* Which flying bricks without training are you referring to? Homelander? Fair. Shazam maybe? He has the wisdom of Solomon, that might translate.
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> it's largely whatever the writer and/or the creative team creates... It's his shortcomings that lends them to some really great team-up stories Please don't answer like that. Answers on this subreddit are required to be strictly Watsonian. Thanks.
I don't know, dude. Even in real life, martial arts can only do so much. They don't usually allow you to beat someone who is much, much stronger than you, they just allow you to temporarily surprise stronger adversaries and get an edge on similarly-powerful adversaries. But Superman usually already IS the stronger combatant when he fights already, and his challenges tend to be of another nature (Lex being sneaky and always technically-legal, Parasite sapping his powers, the Legion of Doom attacking in multiple places at once, etc). But also: even in the few situations where he is fighting sinilarly powered foes, would traditional martial arts even work at the powerscale that Superman or The Hulk fight at? With punches that can probably cause small quakes and such? I feel like most of the moves wouldn't even be applicable. When Doomsday comes charging in with a punch so powerful it can crack the ground, should Superman really judo wrestle him into said ground? He's proba ly coming at him so fast it might just break a hole a few kms deep, not sure that's a good thing. Might be better for Superman to just tank it, try to hold it with his own fist or just trade blows at that point, I don't know.
We have see. With Zod and red hulk. Not as strong but more skilled than counterparts give them significant problems.
Who would train them? And with what equipment? Sups gets in a fight with Darkseid, muscle memory takes over, pulls his punch like he would with a merely mortal trainer, does no damage.
We need to ban this question, the answer is always Superman does know how to fight, also Hulk doesn't fly
Except in most continuities Superman dosnt know how to fight well aside from sometimes having kryptonian martial arts that he doesn't use and gets outclassed. Hulk not flying but lumping him into the category of flying brick is simply because I didn't want to write out "Characters with extreme strength and speed but lack any basic understanding of fighting"
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Hi there. Please remember that answers on this subreddit are required to be strictly Watsonian. Doylist answers like the writers wanting to distinguish the flying bricks from the martial artists are not appropriate. Thanks.
Oops, my bad, first time commenting here and didn't see the rules on mobile. Feel free to remove my post if you like.
Because most of the Time they are flying and many things like kicking or grappling or throwing you need a leverage to be effective , so many just need to learn boxing
punching is the art of pushing off with your feet, and transferring the power to your fist. if you're flying you are pushing off with your flying power, and transferring that to your fist. oni man shows some close range technique on that point, but it's hard to beat the force of a flying haymaker.
I think the trouble is that human martial arts are designed for humans. Not flying demigods. Leverage and momentum all tend to change a bit when you can fly.
Superman would much rather spend time saving people than training to punch better.
The truth is, skill is a minor factor in fighting, regardless of what martial artists might say. Strength is the deciding factor in the vast majority of fights. The only time skill matters whatsoever is when raw power is controlled for. Hence, weight classes in boxing, MMA, etc. Even then, conditioning is often what wins the fight, not some esoteric combat maneuver. Also - pure skill training has rapidly diminishing returns. You can learn all the legal MMA moves in a few weeks. Practicing them for 10 years doesn't make you 10x better at fighting than you were after a few weeks. Conditioning is what makes you better. For superheroes, the massive strength/endurance/speed differentials render anything beyond basic skill training moot.
Tbh a lot of fighting is just practicing fighting. They all have tons and tons of experience and experience is all you really need. You could easily get plenty of martial training just street fighting, assuming you survive. Thats what Christian Bale Batman did before he became a ninja as far as I could tell.
In Superman's case, he kinda trains to not be lethal when dealimg with regular folk.
Honestly Superman is normally shown to have a pretty solid slugger style coupled with some Ju jitsu (he really likes standing arm locks), simple but effective. More complex techniques are honestly impractical for the amount of time he has to train his fighting skills, his moves are efficient and simple to execute. Police CQC reasoning, when you’ve not got the time to be down at the dojo for three hours a day.
It’s super strength not super motivation. I love martial arts and am too lazy/nervous to pick up training again. I’ll give you most super hero’s aren’t written to be depressed/anxious normal people.
Human martial arts might be ineffective at these strength levels. The principals that guide them probably dont apply in higher weight classes
Train with who, exactly? Hulk in 'Incredible' mode isn't really the kind of guy who plans. Superman would likely cripple anyone he tried to train with if his attention slipped in the slightest. Ben Grimm is a flat out brawler, it's what he grew up doing and what he's best at. I recall a Marvel Teamup book from the '70s where Shang Chi found Ben, and had no idea who or what he was (As often as this happens, the FF really needs to get a Publicist) and attacked with all his 'Master of Kung Fu' skills. Ben barely noticed and suggested that Shang Chi might want to calm down.
The way I see it is that such heroes need to train with who can reasonably survive getting hit, which means that the number of people available to teach them are few, if any.
Superman is just so overpowerer, those punches probably just felt like a light spanking to him. He probably like it because it is so damn rare and no one ever spanked him. He is often not serious in a fight to begin with.