That maybe be true, for some reason the link shows that he still works there, it’s on the MLB site. Not saying the site is accurate but it still shows him there
Edit- appears the site is not updated so yeah I think he has left by now
also Cora was not fired from the Astros because of the scandal, he had been out of the organization entirely for two seasons at the time it came out, he was just suspended for the whole 2020 season
I think this could be the real reason why: [https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/\_/id/40263998/leganes-astros-gm-luhnow-promoted-laliga](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/40263998/leganes-astros-gm-luhnow-promoted-laliga)
Exactly. He got involved in futbol pretty soon after he was let go. I think he wanted to be far away from all the ire and heat. Luhnow is good at what he does … regardless of sport. If he wanted to be back in MLB he would be.
I think the bigger knock against Luhnow is that if even half the things in Winning Fixes Everything are true, he's bad for business. Mike Elias and Sig Mejdal are essentially doing the same things at Baltimore that happened in Houston so the lesson to club houses is that it's reproducible and you don't have to make a risky hire to do it.
Fascinating, I haven’t read that book but I will do that, I actually forgot that book existed
I think it’s still relevant to bring up why the other guy is still employed with the team when supposedly a lot of messages showed that he was directly involved in the scandal. Plus Hinch and Cora got jobs almost immediately and they knew what was happening and never did anything to stop it.
I will absolutely read the book this week, thanks for the recommendation! I wanna see what it claims and how it lays out the story and participants
Personally, I felt that Evan Drellich had a bone to pick against the Astros. Most of the book comes off Anti-Astros with any and every drama the Astros have gone through since Crane acquired the team mentioned or brought up in the book.
Apparently the Astros tried to get him fired which is why he has been very Anti-Crane and Astros.
I know at one point he criticizes the Astros for keeping down prospects such as Springer and Correa when the Astros were losing 100 games a season when they could be playing but nearly every MLB team does it so that they get more value from their players so they become free agents in 6 years instead of 5.
I'm not sure which came first but I vividly recall [this interview](https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/bud-norris-on-the-astros-they-are-definitely-the-outcast-of-major-league-baseball-right-now) he did early in the 2014 season with Bud Norris that was heavily critical and quite negative over the Jeff Luhnow-led front office, which at that point had only completed two full offseasons, so there had clearly been some bad blood between the two since at least that early
Hmm, that’s fascinating, I think there’s gonna be a lot in that book, I can’t wait to start it
I’m curious if I’m gonna come out of it not liking Luhnow or if I’m gonna be defending him more though. This situation really feels like he was scapegoated to provide some insurance that something was ‘done’ but that it didn’t affect those really involved. How Hinch and Cora could work again but not luhnow is quite amazing, but maybe something in that book is just that bad, but I doubt it
I imagine most of the sources that provided information were former long time scouts that were let go and had a bone to pick against Luhnow. It kind of reminded me of the film Moneyball where Luhnow and his team bring in Sabermetrics and the old time scouts don't like it.
I mean I guess you could say it has reverted considering Bagwell and Co prefer old school baseball instead of sabermetric.
Yeah I agree, I also think the reversion from analytics to old school methods (moneyball was a great movie, so I’m glad you mentioned it) has been the largest problem with the team so far - the idea that Abreu actually makes sense right now on a major league team, etc these decisions have lead the team to a more downturn and the facts demonstrate it pretty clearly
He probably got offered something we just haven’t heard about, but the fact is that he simply does not want to come back to MLB. It’s a personal choice, and he’s not exactly struggling in the world of soccer: both his Mexican and his Spanish teams won the championship of their respective leagues this year.
Wow good for them! Obviously he knows a thing or two about building championship teams my gosh
I gotta read that book about his office and the station that others recommended, but if he really was scapegoated then I wish they’d have him back. But like you said maybe he’s not interested, especially after the lawsuit, that would be a bit awkward maybe, but he seems like a wonderful team leader
100% agree, the owner is a mess. I don’t see a ton of people calling that out but it is totally the truth
There was zero reason to fire Luhnow or to get rid of click - absolutely stupid across the board and now look at where the team is. Bad management across the board
Zero reason? Luhnow and Hinch's failure to bring the cheating shenanigans under control embarrassed Crane. I find it incredulous that Luhnow claimed he didn't know. At least Hinch acknowledged his part, and that's why he's still in baseball. Crane stated that he put too much trust in Luhnow and the cheating scandal along with the Osuna issues and the Taubman issue all contributed to why Crane is much more hands on now. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but I think it goes a long way to explain why he is more involved. They had a good thing going, but hubris on Luhnow's part contributed to his exit.
1. Crane was embarrassed cause his own actions or lack thereof
2. I believe Lunhow that he didn’t know, why would he? Eveyone else seemed to be covering it up. Including the director of analytics that said in text ‘make sure Jeff doesn’t find out’
3. Hinch acknowledged his part? After denying it publicly. Just because Luhnow denies it doesn’t make him inherently a liar. The Astros settled his lawsuits
4. It’s just a bit amazing your like ‘well Hinch and Cora are back for good season but Luhnow? No way!” They were literally in the dugout. To me that makes no sense at all.
It's possible that all the "don't tell Jeff" stuff was so that Jeff could plausibly deny any casual inquiry from the league, even if he was aware that something was going on. I think the culture he established was win first, worry about how later.
I'm not saying that it's right if he has been blocked for rehire, but I feel like any "don't tell the boss about it," could absolutely be a lieutenant's response to a directive from the boss that sounds like "get it done, I don't care how, and I don't want to know."
That could also explain to a degree why Cora and Hinch (especially Hinch) never put a stop to it. If Beltran brings it up to Lunhow, and got the green light from Lunhow, and the word was to not discuss it with the boss, then how would Hinch be able to go do anything about it without basically outing his own team and ensuring he never worked in baseball again. Hinch was in a really tough spot. Cora did the same stuff like immediately in Boston so it makes me think he was more accepting of the scheme.
I think that’s a lot more less likely though then just the fact he didn’t know because Hinch still could have gone above Luhnow head immediately to the owner Crane and reported it to him and it could have been dealt with that way easily
Heck, one of them could have even been a whistleblower (anonymously too) to the MLB and had them send in an investigator, that would have ended it immediately too. I don’t think Luhnow knew anything about it, I think the analytics dude probably lied to save his job at the time and got immunity for it.
The MLB needed the perception that there was a punishment - they couldn’t punish the players because they felt that would hurt the team too much and disaster the teams ability to play baseball normally, so they needed a public fall guy - that was Luhnow. They didn’t wanna hit crane because he’s the owner, they suspended the managers for a year, but I think the teams agreed not to steal Luhnow in exchange for his firing (Luhnow has IP knowledge about how the teams analytics work too so that’s a motive for not rehiring him)
Do you not think it's a little odd that Lunhow stakes claim to all of the good things that happened to the Astros but has never taken accountability for the objectively bad things?
Not really because there was other team leaders too (and you think my analysis is wrong but hear me out) - the same thing could be said for the owner who ultimately runs the show and pays the bills. The same thing could have been said for the manager and bench coach who ultimately run that dugout and on field operations, who both got rehired immediately following their suspensions (literally as the clock struck midnight they got calls for new jobs, they said in interviews. Red Sox even hired Cora back immediately)
There was also an analytics director who was deeply involved and got immunity and wasn’t fired. Luhnow was never (as it appears) even offered another job for another team. That to me reeks of a hit job and a scapegoating by MLB and as a form of protection to the Astros because Luhnow might have analytics IP he could bring to another team.
Plenty of other industries have done this colluding before too, that’s what it reeks of.
I’m sure he wasn’t happy - his contract would have gotten him over $22 million dollars, plus he could have easily gotten another contract too
Plus he kind of went down as the scape goat, and his name seems to have a taint in the MLB a bit, which I think is undeserved but I do need to read the book about it that other recommended. Overall I can imagine he wasn’t happy with it
Check the lawsuits, just Google. Have you watched the PBS documentary kind of siding with the Astros? Lunhows only agreed interview. He himself says it's a blessing for him to be gone.
https://youtu.be/TNU64BVw95g?si=23i9HGhNIuosZS9Y
Just starting that documentary and already Luhnow is denying that he was responsible (hence he was scapegoated) denies there was a bad culture, and is 100% defending himself
The only reason he’d be ‘happy’ to be gone is if he’s happy to not have to be around the owner or the league anymore that’s scapegoated him
What I’m saying (and I’ll finish this doc) is that it’s unfair to say he’s happy when he actually appears to think this is quite a bad circumstance that maybe he’s thankful to have been separated from, but I’m not getting his that defends the league or what the owner did
I didn’t say he isn’t content with his decisions - I said he was scapegoated, I don’t know how you’re getting ‘he’s good out of being scapegoated and losing 22 million dollar contract’ out of it
I wouldn’t want to come back either, but I’d still be quite pissed at what happened and how I was treated as I’m sure he is. Nothing about him so far screams happy to me
I feel like in 30 years all the tell all books will come out and we'll have a very different picture of both the scandal itself but also who the real culprits are. That said, MLB did a really terrible job looking into this and it's clear they were more concerned with getting past it than doing an actual investigation.
100% agree, I do hope the Astros go back and rehire Luhnow though even though after the lawsuits that seems less likely and I wonder if him and crane have a good relationship
Such a stupid tragedy because Luhnow was the best GM in baseball and he didn’t deserve that treatment. Supposedly his scooter club won a championship so obviously he’s a brilliant sports mind
I hope so, and from what I read in other comments it looks like his soccer club has been super successful so that speaks to how great of a sports manager he is and how broad his knowledge is
I just felt he got quite railroaded by the MLB during that process so they could create a fall guy, and I think he was innocent. The fact he wasn’t at least publicly offered a major contract with another team was surprising hence the NYT article saying that they noticed he wasn’t a public candidate for any jobs. That was just quite odd to me
But he’s doing amazing with his new team, but if he ever wants to step back into baseball we should welcome him lol
Just read the MLB report on the investigation. https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/cglrhmlrwwbkacty27l7.pdf. The section about Luhnow basically says, "We have no direct evidence that he knew, we think he should have known, and here's a bunch of other things we don't like about him (though none of them have to with any rule violations)" I mean MLB basically admits to using the investigation as means to suspend him for not liking him.
lol that’s true! 🤣 I remember reading that at the time and thinking why on earth would you remove probably the greatest GM in baseball for this
Other industries have done this sort of collusion before to, they won’t hire people from some companies (Apple and Adobe got caught doing this) because of IP knowledge, analytics info and rivalry so they purposely might have all agreed to not bring him on. He got settlements for his suits too so that’s quite telling as well
Idk if there has been collusion or not, but Luhnow had a terrible reputation in MLB circles for practices such as firing scouts and automating their jobs, hiring douches like Brandon Taubman, not honoring the Brady Aiken deal, trading for Osuna, attempting to sign Luke Heimlich, and his general “win at any cost” attitude. It’s not a huge surprise that he hasn’t gotten a sniff by any other teams.
As an outsider, I’m completely in on hiring him back because ultimately all I care about are wins.
With his win at all costs strategy so obvious, it's hard to believe he couldn't have been a part of it. I get that there is little to no evidence but the idea wouldn't be out of character at all.
People were always going to be mad about the cheating scandal, but Lunhow and our FO were already not very well liked around the league so it was like lighting a bonfire that was doused in gasoline. And it wasn't a "hate us cuz they aint us" sort of deal - it was just that the Astros operated very differently from the standard of the league and in some ways that were very cold and harsh.
Big deal. Operating outside of the industry norm and being successful, nothing wrong with that. Definition of being innovative. Luhnow and staff did their jobs well. Not every personality will fit into an organizational culture and he worked to find those that did. As a fan, I predominantly care about organizational success. I accepted that once Luhnow was dismissed and the organization infrastructure was dismantled in the recent past, this ride was coming to an end. The next misery will be the days of .500-ish success on the field, middling first-player draft picks and prospect development without consideration of organizational goals for what baseball metrics/player talents translate to a success MLB product. The group today is not doing a great job and tend to double-down on poor decisions without good justification. That is indicative of a lack of or outright poor senior organizational leadership.
I’m going to! I read someone else recommended it too, I totally forgot about the book but I’m gonna read it this week
I think the owner isn’t free from responsibility though, if what Luhnow did was that bad, which I don’t know for sure cause I haven’t read it, then I’m sure the owner isn’t free of guilt too cause Luhnow was there a long time
I thought the book did a good job of pointing out what accountability \*didn't\* happen within the organization (ownership being a great example) as well as what did.
That’s really interesting, I can’t wait to start the read and see what it provides, some people wrote they felt the book was a bit biased or came across anti-Astro (which some people in the press certainly do) but I’ll give it a fair read through and see what I think
Thanks for the recommendation too!
It certainly doesn’t do favors to make the Astros look *good*, but it also correctly identifies a lot of cultural issues and their sources and singles those out instead of just being like “f the Astros.”
I also was very surprised to see the data on how many at bats were proven to be affected by the trash can scheme. Seemed very few, and remarkably few for Altuve specifically considering how much he gets booed around the league.
There’s no defense of electronic sign stealing, I’m just saying it surprised me how much of that season was just good baseball
Why do people keep referring to damaging info about Luhnow in this book?
There's nothing shocking in there about Luhnow. This is nonsense. Bring him back someday.
If this made it to the GM/president but the assistant gym doesn’t know. Everyone knew. The Yankees had a system, the Red Sox, and I’m sure others. We blacklist the architect of our dynasty. Did they? Did anyone from any of their scandals suffer? Papi, manny, arod won titles on roids. Have they ever apologized? I’d take ludnow back right now. A cut throat in the land of pirates.
I just want to point out the Cora wasn’t immediately hired after the scandal was revealed. He was already the coach of the Red Sox and he had already won a World Series with the Red Sox in 2018 (hmmmm.. I wonder if they had a “system” when they won?)
Cora was suspended by the MLB for a year and the Red Sox chose to retain him as opposed to bending the knee to the MLB like we did.
For sure, what I meant was the day that Cora’s suspension ended (at midnight) Cora got a call from the Red Sox and they immediately offered him his contract
He said that in an interview too one time. So Hinch got basically the same treatment the moment his suspension ended he got a call from teams wanting him to join them. So they had no problem job hunting lol - but Luhnow? Not one public offer or consideration and for a world class GM that makes zero sense
That’s like Michael Jordan going back on the market in his prime and nobody calling, makes no sense at all
Got ya. We’re on the same page. But yeah Lunhow has proven to be a high level executive and collusion is definitely possible considering his resume.
I understand he purchased a soccer team, but he could have done that knowing there’s likely a chance he will never get hired back In baseball.
For sure, yeah we’re on the same page, I kinda think it’s a travesty cause the guy is a total sports management genius, I do wish he would come back to the Astros but he does seem happy with his Soccer clubs - which more power to him
Thanks for the conversation too! Appreciate you 🔥
As good as a GM Lunhow is - he is just as big of a prick and the Astros FO during that time sounds like an absolute nightmare to work for. I think people (rightfully) have a hard time believing Lunhow was as involved as he was in the operations of the team while also having zero idea about the sign stealing.
He was also very happy to throw the entire organization under the bus for it and it annoys me to no end that he's lionized as some saint of Astros history. Especially because he set the culture that led to all of the shit.
He also set the table for 7 straight ALCS appearances. Click was also good for the team but he didn’t have to do a whole lot more than work around the margins and deplete the farm to keep the big league machine going.
Yeah I'm not saying he isn't a good GM. He clearly had the blue print to form a successful team. I believe someone else mentioned it, but the Orioles are full of former Astros staffers in the FO and they're one of the best run teams in the league running his system. I just wish he didn't also encourage a very toxic culture in the FO when he was here.
You are undoubtedly right about his shortcomings. But Luhnow was mostly right that Winning Fixes Everything. He was fired but will always be canonized by the fans because he assembled the pieces for a long-term run of winning. Plus, no telling how he is running his soccer teams, but he is winning titles with them also. He seems like a jerk, but he wins, which negates any widespread fan impact caring about what goes on off the field (or pitch).
Definitely see that perspective and understand it. I just get frustrated when we as fans don't see the clear logic of why this dude got black balled. He was an asshole so much so that the entire league was happy to see us fuck up. I don't want us to be loved by the entire league, but it's a problem when the perception of the organization was it was back then.
All that being said - it's not like it's all peachy nowadays. Crane is doing his best Jerry Jones impression and ran off a great GM in Click so it's not like the problems began and ended with Lunhow.
He definitely created a toxic situation off the field for the team. I’m sure as with Bauer, teams just don’t care to go through the fan backlash.
I think after the whole debacle, Crane decided that he’d be the decision maker, with his trusted advisers Bagwell and Reggie Jackson. I’m sure that the FO, and hopefully common employees, have a better quality of life at work now. Too bad Crane is meddling. To be sure, I don’t think he’s as good as he thinks he is, or as bad as the fans think he is.
I’ve been a defender of the Astros’ strength and conditioning program because of the leaguewide rash of pitcher injuries. I think it’s 100% fair now to look into that and consider it as an important cause of their downfall. Even not considering rookie pitchers like France who were probably overworked last year, the injuries have undermined the whole team. Most damning is that the team rushed back McCullers, Meyers, and now Urquidy. They’ve managed to turn what should be one-time injuries into long-term problems for those players (not counting Meyers, but it took a year for him to really come back). We can only hope that Garcia, Javier, France, etc. don’t meet the same fate. I’m pretty sure Urquidy will be gone but who knows. McCullers is made of glass but I don’t think the Astros did him any favors health-wise.
I can only wonder if Bagwell’s public statements that they rely too much on analytics caused them to miss or ignore Jose Abreu’s decline. The only people to blame for this shit deal are Crane and Bagwell. Literally nobody expected this type of downfall, but it is clear that Abreu’s problems go beyond mechanics and bat speed. His reaction time has deteriorated quickly, which intensive statistical analysis may have uncovered. Look at him with this “comeback” - every hit goes to the right side. I’d pin that on trying to get back into a groove if this hadn’t been happening both before and after his minor league vacation.
Whatever the problems are, Crane and Bagwell must be accountable.
I don’t think he was happy throwing the team under the bus - I think MLB and crane were too happy to throw him under the bus for it. His culture was about winning, and I don’t think he ever did anything morally bankrupt or cheating wise to do that, I think he deserves his place in Astros sainthood because he is legitimately the best GM baseball has seen in a long time
He literally built our World Series winning teams and farm system. Look at us now… Dana brown doesn’t have it, and honestly, I want Luhnow back
But Crane getting rid of Luhnow then click was BEYOND stupid to me and look at the team
ITT:
Zero direct evidence Luhnow had any hand in the sign-stealing scheme. That Drellich book is full of innuendo and circumstance, and seems a little too fixated on making Luhnow the bad guy for a scheme that it can't actually tie him to. "No, it was because Luhnow was cutthroat!...because he did things like fire underperforming scouts, or demand that his front office stay loyal to the team instead of leaking to the media..."
He includes things like the Osuna signing...not because it has anyfuckingthing to do with stealing signs, but because it's another opportunity to make Luhnow the Bad Guy. Nevermind the multiple signings of awful dudes that have happened over the past 10 years or so.
Yes, I'm sure Luhnow is bitter with how he was treated in all this. Yes, I'm sure he's effectively banned from baseball. Yes, I'm sure it's because of four facts, and four facts alone:
1. The Astros were very good
2. The Astros are not an MLB darling, from a market perspective (NYY, LAD, NYM, CHC, BOS)
3. Luhnow was instrumental in making the Astros good
4. The Astros were involved in a sign stealing scandal, for which there was expected punishment
Drellich had an axe to grind with the team. It was back when he was the beat writer for the Astros. I forget exactly what led to all of it; but I think it was due to the team being pretty tight-lipped and he got butthurt about it.
I completely agree! I’m starting the book this week so I can see what they’re alleging against him but to me this feels like a hit job
They needed someone to put this on and they chose Luhnow, who in my opinion was innocent. From what I’ve seen if the PBS documentary Luhnow comes across honest, innocent and does a good job defending himself (in case you haven’t seen it link here- https://youtu.be/TNU64BVw95g?si=mCj8aQI_bgTncDa_ )
I think the league made him the fall guy - which is terrible because that guy is world class GM and the Astros need him back badly
(Another user wrote that his soccer clubs win their championships too, so Luhnow is gold lol)
I would not describe him as innocent. I would describe him as "less guilty." He will certainly paint himself as innocent, but, imo... even him *not knowing* about the scandal paints him negatively. There's simply no way he didn't know about it, and his choices afterwards probably just make him look like a fall guy because *the Astros* were railroaded. The largest detail that always gets glossed over is that it was reported as a league wide issue, and the *Astros* took the fall.
Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Not the US, not Latin America, not Europe or Africa... the whole fuckin world! He now has two clubs, in the most popular sport in the world, that are doing very well. It could be that once the Astros became the fall guys he decided he didn't need this whole mess following him around his entire career, so he pivoted.
Yeah and more power to him for his soccer success! The guy is obviously a sports management genius - World Series and soccer championships
My personal thoughts are he was not hired as GM for another team (even though they all would have loved to have him) probably to protect any IP or analytics info he developed for the Astros and to ensure some level of punishment seemed to be public and major. To me it was a railroading, everyone else got a job back or a new opportunity and in many ways I feel his name got unfairly smeared, which he didn’t deserve. They needed someone to blame so they went with him. The players all have unions and other protections, he made a good fall guy.
But more power to him, if he ever comes back the Astros need to beg for his return lol
My belief, based off all the info out there:
Luhnow was pretty hated across baseball and rumor is that they were looking for a reason to get rid of him. The clubhouse outburst after the 2019 AlCS was considered a final straw. Dreilich and Rosenthal were pointed in the direction of Mike Fiers after the 2019 World Series, when no one was interested prior to the ALCS clubhouse outburst even though Fiers had been shopping his story almost immediately after leaving the Astros post-2017, first with Detroit, then with Oakland.
Astros likely would get a true slap-on-the-wrist, much like what happened to Boston and New York, if that outburst doesn’t occur. Instead, Manfred used that as a way to boot Luhnow out of the game thinking it would blow over quickly with only Luhnow getting dumped. However, the backlash was way more than what Manfred expected, because he’s a moron in an insular bubble, and he was forced to punish Hinch, Cora, and Beltran as well as levy significant punishments against the Astros. However, he continues to look weak to most fan bases, as almost all of them wanted the 2017 title stripped, as the report released was solely about the Astros and not about the wide-spread machinations that were going on. Again, Manfred misjudged things there thinking it was better to admit one team was to blame instead of admitting that the cheating was much more wide-spread and dampening the effect of his punishment.
My guess is that history will likely be rewritten so that Manfred comes out of this looking better. I’m sure he’ll get in the HOF down the road, much like his predecessor did…even with all the controversy he had. The Dodgers winning in 2020 and the Astros winning in 2022 likely helps him there as a lot of the backlash has quieted down sans a few holes in the internet. Other owners are happy, Luhnow is gone, and the sign-stealing issue has been quashed…more due to the rule changes and pitch-comm, then anything Manfred did directly.
Was Luhnow a shady, brilliant a-hole who would do anything to win? Pretty much…then again, he wasn’t the first, and won’t be the last MLB GM to do that. Did he deserve not getting another shot? No, and I hope he wins his lawsuit.
🤣100% agree lol!
I’m pretty sure he was the most guilty out of everyone, Cora and Beltran who I think was trying to do something similar when he was with the Yankees, they caught him in one of his interviews talking about ‘advanced techniques’ and everyone assumes sign stealing was what he was talking about
That’s why I think the MLB railroaded Luhnow, to create a fall guy, his soccer club according to other comments won the championship so he’s obviously a brilliant sports mind
Doesn’t matter. It’s highly unlikely anyone wants to hire him. It’s a stain on his resume. No matter how good his draft picks and free agent signings keep panning out. No team is going to want to him running the organization. Beltran won’t get another job either.
I think that answers a little non-sensical - the Astros settled his lawsuit against them. He has ample evidence for his arguments.
You say no one would want to hire him? They literally hired Hinch and Cora, and even after Cora’s suspension the Red Sox brought him right back the day of his suspension ending. They didn’t care.
Even a scouting position? I don’t believe that someone that hurt a World Series team is unhirable especially when the evidence shows that he wasn’t directly involved in it, as his lawsuit provides ample evidence for.
The man directly invoked is still employed with the Astros - that’s telling tbh
It’s not nonsense. GM has a TON of control more so than the manager ever does. He’s clearly qualified he’s one of the great GMs the game has ever seen. It’s just nobody wants the distraction.
No, incorrect - you still can’t explain why they settled the suit. Or why the man responsible, who indicted him in the investigation is still employed by the Astros
Or why the actual people who were directly guilty, the bench coach and manager got jobs immediately after their suspensions
That’s non-sensical
No body trust him but they trust Hinch and Cora? That doesn’t make sense
I love Hinch, he’s the best manager in baseball in my mind, but I also think Luhnow had nothing to do with it and gets a bad unfair rap
Well I think teams trusting Hinch and Cora but being unable to trust Luhnow doesn’t make any logical sense since Luhnow was never directly invoked and his lawsuits basically clear his name
The Astros settled because they knew the evidence wouldn’t go their way, I think Luhnow got railroaded cause the league needed a fall guy
But I understand your perspective and points
Lunhow claims he had no idea.
Cora helped set it up and is a drunk.
Hinch knew about it and didnt like it.
Lunhow just holds a higher position and nobody wants him running the team.
I respect the view I think we’ll have to disagree on this one, I think this isn’t that no one trust him, I think he holds Astros IP for analytics and teams agreed to not hire him
It’s the classic railroading and scapegoat story. They needed someone to blame so they made him the fall guy because they couldn’t hit the players for too long and the managers got suspended. No body hiring him for a top of the line position makes no sense because he was the top GM in all of baseball - that’s like not offering Michael Jordan a contract in his prime if he hit the market. I don’t think it’s a trust issue - I think it was a collusion issue. They agreed not to hire him I think
But good conversation thanks for it!
Well yeah it does matter cause first it’s illegal to do that. Second, it shows the owner buried an innocent person to protect his own reputation. Third It also shows that the person responsible for the problems is still employed by the Astros front office
And since our front office is sort of a mess and the team is doing pretty bad compared to under Luhnow and click I’m feeling the owners micromanaging of the front office is the reason for the mess
No, Crane didn’t just scapegoat him - the League did. They needed someone to blame and they needed a fall guy. Luhnow was it.
As I said it’s illegal. It’s morally bankrupt if that’s truly the case. And the Astros settled the suit, which is telling
Can you explain why Hinch and Cora was hired immediately but now Luhnow? Especially considering Luhnow knew the Astros analytics operations?
Colluding with other possible employers to keep him not hired or not to allow him another opportunity to work in the league again - Hinch wnd Cora were immediately rehired elsewhere without a moment to waste I don’t buy Luhnow wasn’t going to be too
It’s 100% illegal to collude with organizations to not hire someone and that does appear to be the case here, hence why Luhnow never got a major GM consideration after he left the Astros
A GM of his caliber I think there is no chance he wasn’t considered or rehired elsewhere like Hinch and Cora were personally
Nobody is hiring him because he's untrustworthy and he's unqualified. No collusion required therefore nothing illegal is taking place. This isn't hard you just need to stop grinding that axe.
It seems you think he's innocent (he's not). This situation isn't binary. He lied and he cheated which made him a perfect scapegoat. It also makes him untrustworthy and unhireable. After all this he sued the mlb then bought a soccer club.
Jeff Lunhow isn't a martyr - your take is awful and unfactual. And despite being presented with contrary facts and the truth, you still think there's a conspiracy. I bet you also like Trump because this is exactly how he thinks.
That's not how it happened and as I said to the other guy asking the same rhetorical question, Hinch/Cora are still qualified to do their job, Lunhow isn't (see my first response). All 3 served their punishment.
You couldn’t answer the question so your like ‘that’s not how it happened’
Yes it is, they got a suspension and were immediately hired. Why exactly? He wasn’t and sued and got a settlement. His accusations against the guy the Astros still employ is telling
So the team thinks keeping the other guy hired is perfectly ok and other teams think hiring Cora and Hinch is ok, but Luhnow? No way! Come on now…
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So Hinch by all accounts didn't like it but didn't do enough to stop it, while Cora was an active participant and co-conspirator with Beltran. How are they employable in the MLB???
Managing a clubhouse versus an entire organization aren't the same things. Hinch/Cora are still qualified to run a clubhouse, Lunhow is no longer qualified to run a team.
You’re right its not the same thing. On one hand you have people literally complicit and witnessing the cheating while it’s happening during games and the other you have a front office guy who was no where near the actual events that transpired.
And you haven’t actually explained how Cora and Hinch are still qualified while Lunhow isn’t. Even though they’re both far more culpable when it comes to the cheating.
Tom Koch-Weser does NOT work for the Astros currently. He left the organization in May 2021.
That maybe be true, for some reason the link shows that he still works there, it’s on the MLB site. Not saying the site is accurate but it still shows him there Edit- appears the site is not updated so yeah I think he has left by now
also Cora was not fired from the Astros because of the scandal, he had been out of the organization entirely for two seasons at the time it came out, he was just suspended for the whole 2020 season
I think this could be the real reason why: [https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/\_/id/40263998/leganes-astros-gm-luhnow-promoted-laliga](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/40263998/leganes-astros-gm-luhnow-promoted-laliga)
Exactly. He got involved in futbol pretty soon after he was let go. I think he wanted to be far away from all the ire and heat. Luhnow is good at what he does … regardless of sport. If he wanted to be back in MLB he would be.
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I think the bigger knock against Luhnow is that if even half the things in Winning Fixes Everything are true, he's bad for business. Mike Elias and Sig Mejdal are essentially doing the same things at Baltimore that happened in Houston so the lesson to club houses is that it's reproducible and you don't have to make a risky hire to do it.
Honestly, I've wondered why we didn't steal Sig back. O's took Elias as GM and Sig wont be a GM unless he leaves the O's.
It's a thought, Sig certainly has the people skills and the knowledge.
Fascinating, I haven’t read that book but I will do that, I actually forgot that book existed I think it’s still relevant to bring up why the other guy is still employed with the team when supposedly a lot of messages showed that he was directly involved in the scandal. Plus Hinch and Cora got jobs almost immediately and they knew what was happening and never did anything to stop it. I will absolutely read the book this week, thanks for the recommendation! I wanna see what it claims and how it lays out the story and participants
Personally, I felt that Evan Drellich had a bone to pick against the Astros. Most of the book comes off Anti-Astros with any and every drama the Astros have gone through since Crane acquired the team mentioned or brought up in the book. Apparently the Astros tried to get him fired which is why he has been very Anti-Crane and Astros.
Yes, it felt like he had an axe to grind, but he had quite a few sources in the book that had criticism of Luhnow.
I know at one point he criticizes the Astros for keeping down prospects such as Springer and Correa when the Astros were losing 100 games a season when they could be playing but nearly every MLB team does it so that they get more value from their players so they become free agents in 6 years instead of 5.
I'm not sure which came first but I vividly recall [this interview](https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/bud-norris-on-the-astros-they-are-definitely-the-outcast-of-major-league-baseball-right-now) he did early in the 2014 season with Bud Norris that was heavily critical and quite negative over the Jeff Luhnow-led front office, which at that point had only completed two full offseasons, so there had clearly been some bad blood between the two since at least that early
Bud has a right to his opinions. The game has clearly adopted the heavy reliance on statistics and analytics.
Hmm, that’s fascinating, I think there’s gonna be a lot in that book, I can’t wait to start it I’m curious if I’m gonna come out of it not liking Luhnow or if I’m gonna be defending him more though. This situation really feels like he was scapegoated to provide some insurance that something was ‘done’ but that it didn’t affect those really involved. How Hinch and Cora could work again but not luhnow is quite amazing, but maybe something in that book is just that bad, but I doubt it
I imagine most of the sources that provided information were former long time scouts that were let go and had a bone to pick against Luhnow. It kind of reminded me of the film Moneyball where Luhnow and his team bring in Sabermetrics and the old time scouts don't like it. I mean I guess you could say it has reverted considering Bagwell and Co prefer old school baseball instead of sabermetric.
Yeah I agree, I also think the reversion from analytics to old school methods (moneyball was a great movie, so I’m glad you mentioned it) has been the largest problem with the team so far - the idea that Abreu actually makes sense right now on a major league team, etc these decisions have lead the team to a more downturn and the facts demonstrate it pretty clearly
Bruh, ludnow built this place. He hired those guys. Let’s see them win before saying the man behind our 10 year run was bad for business.
He probably got offered something we just haven’t heard about, but the fact is that he simply does not want to come back to MLB. It’s a personal choice, and he’s not exactly struggling in the world of soccer: both his Mexican and his Spanish teams won the championship of their respective leagues this year.
Wow good for them! Obviously he knows a thing or two about building championship teams my gosh I gotta read that book about his office and the station that others recommended, but if he really was scapegoated then I wish they’d have him back. But like you said maybe he’s not interested, especially after the lawsuit, that would be a bit awkward maybe, but he seems like a wonderful team leader
Bring him back!
100% with it - our GM office and getting rid of Luhnow and Click is the reason the team is in the gutter right now
I think Click got hosed too. What did he get fired for? Not being Crane’s yes man?
100% agree, the owner is a mess. I don’t see a ton of people calling that out but it is totally the truth There was zero reason to fire Luhnow or to get rid of click - absolutely stupid across the board and now look at where the team is. Bad management across the board
Zero reason? Luhnow and Hinch's failure to bring the cheating shenanigans under control embarrassed Crane. I find it incredulous that Luhnow claimed he didn't know. At least Hinch acknowledged his part, and that's why he's still in baseball. Crane stated that he put too much trust in Luhnow and the cheating scandal along with the Osuna issues and the Taubman issue all contributed to why Crane is much more hands on now. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but I think it goes a long way to explain why he is more involved. They had a good thing going, but hubris on Luhnow's part contributed to his exit.
1. Crane was embarrassed cause his own actions or lack thereof 2. I believe Lunhow that he didn’t know, why would he? Eveyone else seemed to be covering it up. Including the director of analytics that said in text ‘make sure Jeff doesn’t find out’ 3. Hinch acknowledged his part? After denying it publicly. Just because Luhnow denies it doesn’t make him inherently a liar. The Astros settled his lawsuits 4. It’s just a bit amazing your like ‘well Hinch and Cora are back for good season but Luhnow? No way!” They were literally in the dugout. To me that makes no sense at all.
It's possible that all the "don't tell Jeff" stuff was so that Jeff could plausibly deny any casual inquiry from the league, even if he was aware that something was going on. I think the culture he established was win first, worry about how later. I'm not saying that it's right if he has been blocked for rehire, but I feel like any "don't tell the boss about it," could absolutely be a lieutenant's response to a directive from the boss that sounds like "get it done, I don't care how, and I don't want to know." That could also explain to a degree why Cora and Hinch (especially Hinch) never put a stop to it. If Beltran brings it up to Lunhow, and got the green light from Lunhow, and the word was to not discuss it with the boss, then how would Hinch be able to go do anything about it without basically outing his own team and ensuring he never worked in baseball again. Hinch was in a really tough spot. Cora did the same stuff like immediately in Boston so it makes me think he was more accepting of the scheme.
I think that’s a lot more less likely though then just the fact he didn’t know because Hinch still could have gone above Luhnow head immediately to the owner Crane and reported it to him and it could have been dealt with that way easily Heck, one of them could have even been a whistleblower (anonymously too) to the MLB and had them send in an investigator, that would have ended it immediately too. I don’t think Luhnow knew anything about it, I think the analytics dude probably lied to save his job at the time and got immunity for it. The MLB needed the perception that there was a punishment - they couldn’t punish the players because they felt that would hurt the team too much and disaster the teams ability to play baseball normally, so they needed a public fall guy - that was Luhnow. They didn’t wanna hit crane because he’s the owner, they suspended the managers for a year, but I think the teams agreed not to steal Luhnow in exchange for his firing (Luhnow has IP knowledge about how the teams analytics work too so that’s a motive for not rehiring him)
Do you not think it's a little odd that Lunhow stakes claim to all of the good things that happened to the Astros but has never taken accountability for the objectively bad things?
Not really because there was other team leaders too (and you think my analysis is wrong but hear me out) - the same thing could be said for the owner who ultimately runs the show and pays the bills. The same thing could have been said for the manager and bench coach who ultimately run that dugout and on field operations, who both got rehired immediately following their suspensions (literally as the clock struck midnight they got calls for new jobs, they said in interviews. Red Sox even hired Cora back immediately) There was also an analytics director who was deeply involved and got immunity and wasn’t fired. Luhnow was never (as it appears) even offered another job for another team. That to me reeks of a hit job and a scapegoating by MLB and as a form of protection to the Astros because Luhnow might have analytics IP he could bring to another team. Plenty of other industries have done this colluding before too, that’s what it reeks of.
I heard because Click was openly talking shit about Crane cheating on his wife at the winter meetings.
Haha. Man, I really miss him now.
Look at the giant field of fucks that Lunhow does not give! He owns a small football club. He has money and family. He's gone, and good for him.
I’m sure he wasn’t happy - his contract would have gotten him over $22 million dollars, plus he could have easily gotten another contract too Plus he kind of went down as the scape goat, and his name seems to have a taint in the MLB a bit, which I think is undeserved but I do need to read the book about it that other recommended. Overall I can imagine he wasn’t happy with it
Check the lawsuits, just Google. Have you watched the PBS documentary kind of siding with the Astros? Lunhows only agreed interview. He himself says it's a blessing for him to be gone. https://youtu.be/TNU64BVw95g?si=23i9HGhNIuosZS9Y
Just starting that documentary and already Luhnow is denying that he was responsible (hence he was scapegoated) denies there was a bad culture, and is 100% defending himself The only reason he’d be ‘happy’ to be gone is if he’s happy to not have to be around the owner or the league anymore that’s scapegoated him What I’m saying (and I’ll finish this doc) is that it’s unfair to say he’s happy when he actually appears to think this is quite a bad circumstance that maybe he’s thankful to have been separated from, but I’m not getting his that defends the league or what the owner did
Nice, now finish the documentary 🤣 He's good man. He does not want to come back.
I didn’t say he isn’t content with his decisions - I said he was scapegoated, I don’t know how you’re getting ‘he’s good out of being scapegoated and losing 22 million dollar contract’ out of it I wouldn’t want to come back either, but I’d still be quite pissed at what happened and how I was treated as I’m sure he is. Nothing about him so far screams happy to me
Bruh, quit yelling into a tunnel and watch. He recovered well more than his 22 million in his lawsuits jajajaja.
I will, and thanks for the recommendation too - I’ll note what I think after a full play through this afternoon
I feel like in 30 years all the tell all books will come out and we'll have a very different picture of both the scandal itself but also who the real culprits are. That said, MLB did a really terrible job looking into this and it's clear they were more concerned with getting past it than doing an actual investigation.
100% agree, I do hope the Astros go back and rehire Luhnow though even though after the lawsuits that seems less likely and I wonder if him and crane have a good relationship Such a stupid tragedy because Luhnow was the best GM in baseball and he didn’t deserve that treatment. Supposedly his scooter club won a championship so obviously he’s a brilliant sports mind
He went and purchased a soccer team pretty soon after so I’d wager that had more to do with it than
I hope so, and from what I read in other comments it looks like his soccer club has been super successful so that speaks to how great of a sports manager he is and how broad his knowledge is I just felt he got quite railroaded by the MLB during that process so they could create a fall guy, and I think he was innocent. The fact he wasn’t at least publicly offered a major contract with another team was surprising hence the NYT article saying that they noticed he wasn’t a public candidate for any jobs. That was just quite odd to me But he’s doing amazing with his new team, but if he ever wants to step back into baseball we should welcome him lol
Well yeah. The only evidence he was complicit was that he was CC’d on an email that mentioned it. That’s literally it.
Just read the MLB report on the investigation. https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/cglrhmlrwwbkacty27l7.pdf. The section about Luhnow basically says, "We have no direct evidence that he knew, we think he should have known, and here's a bunch of other things we don't like about him (though none of them have to with any rule violations)" I mean MLB basically admits to using the investigation as means to suspend him for not liking him.
lol that’s true! 🤣 I remember reading that at the time and thinking why on earth would you remove probably the greatest GM in baseball for this Other industries have done this sort of collusion before to, they won’t hire people from some companies (Apple and Adobe got caught doing this) because of IP knowledge, analytics info and rivalry so they purposely might have all agreed to not bring him on. He got settlements for his suits too so that’s quite telling as well
Idk if there has been collusion or not, but Luhnow had a terrible reputation in MLB circles for practices such as firing scouts and automating their jobs, hiring douches like Brandon Taubman, not honoring the Brady Aiken deal, trading for Osuna, attempting to sign Luke Heimlich, and his general “win at any cost” attitude. It’s not a huge surprise that he hasn’t gotten a sniff by any other teams. As an outsider, I’m completely in on hiring him back because ultimately all I care about are wins.
With his win at all costs strategy so obvious, it's hard to believe he couldn't have been a part of it. I get that there is little to no evidence but the idea wouldn't be out of character at all.
People were always going to be mad about the cheating scandal, but Lunhow and our FO were already not very well liked around the league so it was like lighting a bonfire that was doused in gasoline. And it wasn't a "hate us cuz they aint us" sort of deal - it was just that the Astros operated very differently from the standard of the league and in some ways that were very cold and harsh.
Big deal. Operating outside of the industry norm and being successful, nothing wrong with that. Definition of being innovative. Luhnow and staff did their jobs well. Not every personality will fit into an organizational culture and he worked to find those that did. As a fan, I predominantly care about organizational success. I accepted that once Luhnow was dismissed and the organization infrastructure was dismantled in the recent past, this ride was coming to an end. The next misery will be the days of .500-ish success on the field, middling first-player draft picks and prospect development without consideration of organizational goals for what baseball metrics/player talents translate to a success MLB product. The group today is not doing a great job and tend to double-down on poor decisions without good justification. That is indicative of a lack of or outright poor senior organizational leadership.
Read the book Winning Changes Everything, then join me in keeping that snake away from the Astros.
I’m going to! I read someone else recommended it too, I totally forgot about the book but I’m gonna read it this week I think the owner isn’t free from responsibility though, if what Luhnow did was that bad, which I don’t know for sure cause I haven’t read it, then I’m sure the owner isn’t free of guilt too cause Luhnow was there a long time
I thought the book did a good job of pointing out what accountability \*didn't\* happen within the organization (ownership being a great example) as well as what did.
That’s really interesting, I can’t wait to start the read and see what it provides, some people wrote they felt the book was a bit biased or came across anti-Astro (which some people in the press certainly do) but I’ll give it a fair read through and see what I think Thanks for the recommendation too!
It certainly doesn’t do favors to make the Astros look *good*, but it also correctly identifies a lot of cultural issues and their sources and singles those out instead of just being like “f the Astros.” I also was very surprised to see the data on how many at bats were proven to be affected by the trash can scheme. Seemed very few, and remarkably few for Altuve specifically considering how much he gets booed around the league. There’s no defense of electronic sign stealing, I’m just saying it surprised me how much of that season was just good baseball
Why do people keep referring to damaging info about Luhnow in this book? There's nothing shocking in there about Luhnow. This is nonsense. Bring him back someday.
I’d take him back right now. You think these other guys are any better?
To the best of my knowledge, they’re not overseeing or enabling an electronic sign stealing campaign, so yes.
If this made it to the GM/president but the assistant gym doesn’t know. Everyone knew. The Yankees had a system, the Red Sox, and I’m sure others. We blacklist the architect of our dynasty. Did they? Did anyone from any of their scandals suffer? Papi, manny, arod won titles on roids. Have they ever apologized? I’d take ludnow back right now. A cut throat in the land of pirates.
Username checks out
lol it was made up by apple, it fits
I just want to point out the Cora wasn’t immediately hired after the scandal was revealed. He was already the coach of the Red Sox and he had already won a World Series with the Red Sox in 2018 (hmmmm.. I wonder if they had a “system” when they won?) Cora was suspended by the MLB for a year and the Red Sox chose to retain him as opposed to bending the knee to the MLB like we did.
For sure, what I meant was the day that Cora’s suspension ended (at midnight) Cora got a call from the Red Sox and they immediately offered him his contract He said that in an interview too one time. So Hinch got basically the same treatment the moment his suspension ended he got a call from teams wanting him to join them. So they had no problem job hunting lol - but Luhnow? Not one public offer or consideration and for a world class GM that makes zero sense That’s like Michael Jordan going back on the market in his prime and nobody calling, makes no sense at all
Got ya. We’re on the same page. But yeah Lunhow has proven to be a high level executive and collusion is definitely possible considering his resume. I understand he purchased a soccer team, but he could have done that knowing there’s likely a chance he will never get hired back In baseball.
For sure, yeah we’re on the same page, I kinda think it’s a travesty cause the guy is a total sports management genius, I do wish he would come back to the Astros but he does seem happy with his Soccer clubs - which more power to him Thanks for the conversation too! Appreciate you 🔥
As good as a GM Lunhow is - he is just as big of a prick and the Astros FO during that time sounds like an absolute nightmare to work for. I think people (rightfully) have a hard time believing Lunhow was as involved as he was in the operations of the team while also having zero idea about the sign stealing. He was also very happy to throw the entire organization under the bus for it and it annoys me to no end that he's lionized as some saint of Astros history. Especially because he set the culture that led to all of the shit.
He also set the table for 7 straight ALCS appearances. Click was also good for the team but he didn’t have to do a whole lot more than work around the margins and deplete the farm to keep the big league machine going.
Yeah I'm not saying he isn't a good GM. He clearly had the blue print to form a successful team. I believe someone else mentioned it, but the Orioles are full of former Astros staffers in the FO and they're one of the best run teams in the league running his system. I just wish he didn't also encourage a very toxic culture in the FO when he was here.
You are undoubtedly right about his shortcomings. But Luhnow was mostly right that Winning Fixes Everything. He was fired but will always be canonized by the fans because he assembled the pieces for a long-term run of winning. Plus, no telling how he is running his soccer teams, but he is winning titles with them also. He seems like a jerk, but he wins, which negates any widespread fan impact caring about what goes on off the field (or pitch).
Definitely see that perspective and understand it. I just get frustrated when we as fans don't see the clear logic of why this dude got black balled. He was an asshole so much so that the entire league was happy to see us fuck up. I don't want us to be loved by the entire league, but it's a problem when the perception of the organization was it was back then. All that being said - it's not like it's all peachy nowadays. Crane is doing his best Jerry Jones impression and ran off a great GM in Click so it's not like the problems began and ended with Lunhow.
He definitely created a toxic situation off the field for the team. I’m sure as with Bauer, teams just don’t care to go through the fan backlash. I think after the whole debacle, Crane decided that he’d be the decision maker, with his trusted advisers Bagwell and Reggie Jackson. I’m sure that the FO, and hopefully common employees, have a better quality of life at work now. Too bad Crane is meddling. To be sure, I don’t think he’s as good as he thinks he is, or as bad as the fans think he is. I’ve been a defender of the Astros’ strength and conditioning program because of the leaguewide rash of pitcher injuries. I think it’s 100% fair now to look into that and consider it as an important cause of their downfall. Even not considering rookie pitchers like France who were probably overworked last year, the injuries have undermined the whole team. Most damning is that the team rushed back McCullers, Meyers, and now Urquidy. They’ve managed to turn what should be one-time injuries into long-term problems for those players (not counting Meyers, but it took a year for him to really come back). We can only hope that Garcia, Javier, France, etc. don’t meet the same fate. I’m pretty sure Urquidy will be gone but who knows. McCullers is made of glass but I don’t think the Astros did him any favors health-wise. I can only wonder if Bagwell’s public statements that they rely too much on analytics caused them to miss or ignore Jose Abreu’s decline. The only people to blame for this shit deal are Crane and Bagwell. Literally nobody expected this type of downfall, but it is clear that Abreu’s problems go beyond mechanics and bat speed. His reaction time has deteriorated quickly, which intensive statistical analysis may have uncovered. Look at him with this “comeback” - every hit goes to the right side. I’d pin that on trying to get back into a groove if this hadn’t been happening both before and after his minor league vacation. Whatever the problems are, Crane and Bagwell must be accountable.
Couldn't agree more with these points. Very well put
I don’t think he was happy throwing the team under the bus - I think MLB and crane were too happy to throw him under the bus for it. His culture was about winning, and I don’t think he ever did anything morally bankrupt or cheating wise to do that, I think he deserves his place in Astros sainthood because he is legitimately the best GM baseball has seen in a long time He literally built our World Series winning teams and farm system. Look at us now… Dana brown doesn’t have it, and honestly, I want Luhnow back But Crane getting rid of Luhnow then click was BEYOND stupid to me and look at the team
ITT: Zero direct evidence Luhnow had any hand in the sign-stealing scheme. That Drellich book is full of innuendo and circumstance, and seems a little too fixated on making Luhnow the bad guy for a scheme that it can't actually tie him to. "No, it was because Luhnow was cutthroat!...because he did things like fire underperforming scouts, or demand that his front office stay loyal to the team instead of leaking to the media..." He includes things like the Osuna signing...not because it has anyfuckingthing to do with stealing signs, but because it's another opportunity to make Luhnow the Bad Guy. Nevermind the multiple signings of awful dudes that have happened over the past 10 years or so. Yes, I'm sure Luhnow is bitter with how he was treated in all this. Yes, I'm sure he's effectively banned from baseball. Yes, I'm sure it's because of four facts, and four facts alone: 1. The Astros were very good 2. The Astros are not an MLB darling, from a market perspective (NYY, LAD, NYM, CHC, BOS) 3. Luhnow was instrumental in making the Astros good 4. The Astros were involved in a sign stealing scandal, for which there was expected punishment
Drellich had an axe to grind with the team. It was back when he was the beat writer for the Astros. I forget exactly what led to all of it; but I think it was due to the team being pretty tight-lipped and he got butthurt about it.
I completely agree! I’m starting the book this week so I can see what they’re alleging against him but to me this feels like a hit job They needed someone to put this on and they chose Luhnow, who in my opinion was innocent. From what I’ve seen if the PBS documentary Luhnow comes across honest, innocent and does a good job defending himself (in case you haven’t seen it link here- https://youtu.be/TNU64BVw95g?si=mCj8aQI_bgTncDa_ ) I think the league made him the fall guy - which is terrible because that guy is world class GM and the Astros need him back badly (Another user wrote that his soccer clubs win their championships too, so Luhnow is gold lol)
I would not describe him as innocent. I would describe him as "less guilty." He will certainly paint himself as innocent, but, imo... even him *not knowing* about the scandal paints him negatively. There's simply no way he didn't know about it, and his choices afterwards probably just make him look like a fall guy because *the Astros* were railroaded. The largest detail that always gets glossed over is that it was reported as a league wide issue, and the *Astros* took the fall. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Not the US, not Latin America, not Europe or Africa... the whole fuckin world! He now has two clubs, in the most popular sport in the world, that are doing very well. It could be that once the Astros became the fall guys he decided he didn't need this whole mess following him around his entire career, so he pivoted.
Yeah and more power to him for his soccer success! The guy is obviously a sports management genius - World Series and soccer championships My personal thoughts are he was not hired as GM for another team (even though they all would have loved to have him) probably to protect any IP or analytics info he developed for the Astros and to ensure some level of punishment seemed to be public and major. To me it was a railroading, everyone else got a job back or a new opportunity and in many ways I feel his name got unfairly smeared, which he didn’t deserve. They needed someone to blame so they went with him. The players all have unions and other protections, he made a good fall guy. But more power to him, if he ever comes back the Astros need to beg for his return lol
My belief, based off all the info out there: Luhnow was pretty hated across baseball and rumor is that they were looking for a reason to get rid of him. The clubhouse outburst after the 2019 AlCS was considered a final straw. Dreilich and Rosenthal were pointed in the direction of Mike Fiers after the 2019 World Series, when no one was interested prior to the ALCS clubhouse outburst even though Fiers had been shopping his story almost immediately after leaving the Astros post-2017, first with Detroit, then with Oakland. Astros likely would get a true slap-on-the-wrist, much like what happened to Boston and New York, if that outburst doesn’t occur. Instead, Manfred used that as a way to boot Luhnow out of the game thinking it would blow over quickly with only Luhnow getting dumped. However, the backlash was way more than what Manfred expected, because he’s a moron in an insular bubble, and he was forced to punish Hinch, Cora, and Beltran as well as levy significant punishments against the Astros. However, he continues to look weak to most fan bases, as almost all of them wanted the 2017 title stripped, as the report released was solely about the Astros and not about the wide-spread machinations that were going on. Again, Manfred misjudged things there thinking it was better to admit one team was to blame instead of admitting that the cheating was much more wide-spread and dampening the effect of his punishment. My guess is that history will likely be rewritten so that Manfred comes out of this looking better. I’m sure he’ll get in the HOF down the road, much like his predecessor did…even with all the controversy he had. The Dodgers winning in 2020 and the Astros winning in 2022 likely helps him there as a lot of the backlash has quieted down sans a few holes in the internet. Other owners are happy, Luhnow is gone, and the sign-stealing issue has been quashed…more due to the rule changes and pitch-comm, then anything Manfred did directly. Was Luhnow a shady, brilliant a-hole who would do anything to win? Pretty much…then again, he wasn’t the first, and won’t be the last MLB GM to do that. Did he deserve not getting another shot? No, and I hope he wins his lawsuit.
2017 astros documentary needs to drop already
Collude with who?
All the teams and owners to not hire him, that would give the Astros a reason to fire him and know that the Astros analytics IP would be protected
He doesn't want to work MLB ever again. Look him up dude. The man is very happy.
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🤣100% agree lol! I’m pretty sure he was the most guilty out of everyone, Cora and Beltran who I think was trying to do something similar when he was with the Yankees, they caught him in one of his interviews talking about ‘advanced techniques’ and everyone assumes sign stealing was what he was talking about That’s why I think the MLB railroaded Luhnow, to create a fall guy, his soccer club according to other comments won the championship so he’s obviously a brilliant sports mind
Doesn’t matter. It’s highly unlikely anyone wants to hire him. It’s a stain on his resume. No matter how good his draft picks and free agent signings keep panning out. No team is going to want to him running the organization. Beltran won’t get another job either.
I think that answers a little non-sensical - the Astros settled his lawsuit against them. He has ample evidence for his arguments. You say no one would want to hire him? They literally hired Hinch and Cora, and even after Cora’s suspension the Red Sox brought him right back the day of his suspension ending. They didn’t care. Even a scouting position? I don’t believe that someone that hurt a World Series team is unhirable especially when the evidence shows that he wasn’t directly involved in it, as his lawsuit provides ample evidence for. The man directly invoked is still employed with the Astros - that’s telling tbh
It’s not nonsense. GM has a TON of control more so than the manager ever does. He’s clearly qualified he’s one of the great GMs the game has ever seen. It’s just nobody wants the distraction.
No, incorrect - you still can’t explain why they settled the suit. Or why the man responsible, who indicted him in the investigation is still employed by the Astros Or why the actual people who were directly guilty, the bench coach and manager got jobs immediately after their suspensions That’s non-sensical
It doesn’t matter. No org trusts him. I’d take him back tomorrow. But nobody will do it.
No body trust him but they trust Hinch and Cora? That doesn’t make sense I love Hinch, he’s the best manager in baseball in my mind, but I also think Luhnow had nothing to do with it and gets a bad unfair rap
Correct.
Well I think teams trusting Hinch and Cora but being unable to trust Luhnow doesn’t make any logical sense since Luhnow was never directly invoked and his lawsuits basically clear his name The Astros settled because they knew the evidence wouldn’t go their way, I think Luhnow got railroaded cause the league needed a fall guy But I understand your perspective and points
Lunhow claims he had no idea. Cora helped set it up and is a drunk. Hinch knew about it and didnt like it. Lunhow just holds a higher position and nobody wants him running the team.
I respect the view I think we’ll have to disagree on this one, I think this isn’t that no one trust him, I think he holds Astros IP for analytics and teams agreed to not hire him It’s the classic railroading and scapegoat story. They needed someone to blame so they made him the fall guy because they couldn’t hit the players for too long and the managers got suspended. No body hiring him for a top of the line position makes no sense because he was the top GM in all of baseball - that’s like not offering Michael Jordan a contract in his prime if he hit the market. I don’t think it’s a trust issue - I think it was a collusion issue. They agreed not to hire him I think But good conversation thanks for it!
Does it matter? He either lost control of the team or lied his face off to Crane and MLB.
Well yeah it does matter cause first it’s illegal to do that. Second, it shows the owner buried an innocent person to protect his own reputation. Third It also shows that the person responsible for the problems is still employed by the Astros front office And since our front office is sort of a mess and the team is doing pretty bad compared to under Luhnow and click I’m feeling the owners micromanaging of the front office is the reason for the mess
Did Crane scapegoat Lunhow? Absolutely. Is that why he's unqualified and unhireable? Absolutely not.
No, Crane didn’t just scapegoat him - the League did. They needed someone to blame and they needed a fall guy. Luhnow was it. As I said it’s illegal. It’s morally bankrupt if that’s truly the case. And the Astros settled the suit, which is telling Can you explain why Hinch and Cora was hired immediately but now Luhnow? Especially considering Luhnow knew the Astros analytics operations?
What’s illegal??
Colluding with other possible employers to keep him not hired or not to allow him another opportunity to work in the league again - Hinch wnd Cora were immediately rehired elsewhere without a moment to waste I don’t buy Luhnow wasn’t going to be too
Nothing is illegal he's just whining about the dumbest thing bc he's mad at Crane.
It’s 100% illegal to collude with organizations to not hire someone and that does appear to be the case here, hence why Luhnow never got a major GM consideration after he left the Astros A GM of his caliber I think there is no chance he wasn’t considered or rehired elsewhere like Hinch and Cora were personally
Nobody is hiring him because he's untrustworthy and he's unqualified. No collusion required therefore nothing illegal is taking place. This isn't hard you just need to stop grinding that axe. It seems you think he's innocent (he's not). This situation isn't binary. He lied and he cheated which made him a perfect scapegoat. It also makes him untrustworthy and unhireable. After all this he sued the mlb then bought a soccer club. Jeff Lunhow isn't a martyr - your take is awful and unfactual. And despite being presented with contrary facts and the truth, you still think there's a conspiracy. I bet you also like Trump because this is exactly how he thinks.
That's not how it happened and as I said to the other guy asking the same rhetorical question, Hinch/Cora are still qualified to do their job, Lunhow isn't (see my first response). All 3 served their punishment.
You couldn’t answer the question so your like ‘that’s not how it happened’ Yes it is, they got a suspension and were immediately hired. Why exactly? He wasn’t and sued and got a settlement. His accusations against the guy the Astros still employ is telling So the team thinks keeping the other guy hired is perfectly ok and other teams think hiring Cora and Hinch is ok, but Luhnow? No way! Come on now…
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So Hinch by all accounts didn't like it but didn't do enough to stop it, while Cora was an active participant and co-conspirator with Beltran. How are they employable in the MLB???
Managing a clubhouse versus an entire organization aren't the same things. Hinch/Cora are still qualified to run a clubhouse, Lunhow is no longer qualified to run a team.
You’re right its not the same thing. On one hand you have people literally complicit and witnessing the cheating while it’s happening during games and the other you have a front office guy who was no where near the actual events that transpired. And you haven’t actually explained how Cora and Hinch are still qualified while Lunhow isn’t. Even though they’re both far more culpable when it comes to the cheating.