Import people to hand our universities absurd amounts of money in return for a degree that gets them nowhere professionally but gives them a slim chance at a permanent residency in a country where the tap water doesn’t insta-kill you.
Brilliant scheme, big corp, brilliant.
And most corps don’t consider international grads for graduate roles because they don’t have permanent residency. People who make it into grad program are consistently ahead of people who work their way up from clerical roles even though there is no discernible difference in their skills. Sadly, these are the sacrifices first generation immigrants make.
A lot of people are parroting this, but this does not provide enough context on the whole situation.
Getting work visa is actually the easiest part for a lot of graduates. Finding actual work related to the course studied with just the work visa, however, is the main stumbling block. Even if the students are eligible to apply for PR right after graduation, they still have to at least wait 6-12 months for the PR to be approved. However, those who are not eligible right away have to find a relevant job to get PR, but no one will hire you without PR, so a chicken and egg situation. Even then, the eligible graduates will need to look for a graduate role as soon as their PR are approved as to not leave too big of a gap in their resume.
I am lucky to be eligible right away as I always had decent English skills (IELTS all band 8.0 or above - this is actually a lot harder to achieve than most Australians think), but having graduated during the mining bust in the country, it took me 4 years of working minimum wage jobs in the industry before finally landing an engineering role.
Looking for the first job was way harder than anything else, as recruiters absolutely do not look at you fondly when they saw that you have graduated a couple year ago but still have yet to find a relevant job. Most of them will immediately place your resume onto the reject pile, as they think that you are not good enough if you haven't found anything after so long. Add in a non-European name and all of the sudden looking for a relevant job becomes an incredibly daunting task.
Of course there are exceptions, like for example a female engineer looking to do FIFO work, because all of them will be instantly hired. The treatment and lifestyle that they had to endure doing FIFO work though, is a whole other can of works.
I agree with that. It sounds harsh, but IMO the purpose of student visas is to get a degree not permanent migration. If you manage to obtain permanent residency by landing a job in your field straight after graduation with a company that sponsored you, great.
However, it should not be easy or seen as the norm. I think local graduates should always be prioritised and given the best possible chance to find a graduate role and also a decent salary.
But what about the skills shortage? There are not enough workers so prices are higher. It's no different to Qantas making huge profits because of lack of competition from foreign companies.
There’s no skill shortages.
There are shortages of lower paid workers.
The “skills shortage” is an excuse that has been used for a decade as we ramped immigration to the roof. If it hasn’t been solved by the addition of 7 million people since 2000 (2000 pop 19m; 2023 pop 26m) then it’s never going to be solved.
If there is shortage of workers why are'nt wages going up ?
[https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/wage-price-index-australia/latest-release](https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/wage-price-index-australia/latest-release)
You mention qantas, price of flights is through the roof but wages still under below inflation for many many years now.
Pay and Indian university to get a degree and it’s a ticket to Australia with no knowledge or practical skills in the field. Then just get some basic job for the lifestyle and moneyz.
Well. You're not wrong; so you've got that going for you; which is nice.
Another plus of this "system" is it helps us around a demographic crunch we might otherwise eventually find causes severe constraints in our economy.
Also. When I'm old, frail, and decrepit I'll need some unemployed masters degree holders to feed me, bathe me, and wipe my arse.
The demographic crunch is coming anyway as pretty much all the places we get these immigrants are either having a demographic crunch now or on track to have one in a few decades. By my reckoning it will happen about the time I’ll need aged care workers meaning they’ll be scarce.
It's almost as though migrants age too. Migrants who clamber to bring their own aged parents over as well.
But hey, the big end of town gets fatter and the landlords in parliament are laughing!
"More immigration, especially in rapidly aging countries, would help slow the growth of the age dependency ratio. While immigrants will eventually age, a significant inflow of young working-age people during the years of greatest native decline will allow a gradual and more manageable transition."
https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/can-immigration-solve-the-demographic-dilemma-peri#:~:text=More%20immigration%2C%20especially%20in%20rapidly,gradual%20and%20more%20manageable%20transition.
The IMF appears to have not considered the possibility that the global south might one day experience the same demographics as the global north, even as major countries such as India and Mexico begin to experience below replacement and China actually begins to shrink. That article offers no solution for the situation of the available number of migrants shrinking.
>Immigrants are not sufficiently younger than Citizens to shift the tax base
They absolutely are, you're wrong on this point - but yes, it is an exercise in kicking the can down the road. No society has yet figured out how to maintain high economic growth with a rapidly aging populace, though Japan seems to be doing well at maintaining societal stability in the face of slowing growth.
These are the choices, we do this or aus becomes a superpower in statecraft in the region. Which costs dollars, and Australians are exactly suited for.
Take your pick.
As a domestic student in my master's group assignment I had to carry the 4 international students on my back who could hardly string a sentence together in English.
I've also worked at a top university and was quite abhorred by the English level of some Master students from overseas. Some can't even speak proper conversational English.
>I've also worked at a top university and was quite abhorred by the English level of some Master students from overseas. Some can't even speak proper conversational English.
Same.
And you're not really allowed to mark them too harshly. Some students who I would've failed (and very convincingly failed) I'm sure got their marks bumped up to pass. It sucks. They don't deserve to pass.
It's interesting to look at the Census data changes from the 2016 to 2021 in the "Persons Not Fluent in English" categories and the large increase that has taken place; this is Sydney for example:
[https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/4PbLK/3/](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/4PbLK/3/)
Wonder if it is a knock-on effect from Universities not properly enforcing minimum standards for fluency as part of course admission requirements?
Is university even worth it at this point? Just completed my first semester, and between the cost and the competition I'm starting to consider going into a trade.
You *can* get a lot from university but most 17-18yos aren't shown where the value is.
The network you can establish at uni is probably more important than the piece of paper imo.
Rather than studying your arse off, getting good grades and not meeting anyone, you'd be better off meeting as many people as you can in as many different fields as you can (unless you want to stay in academia). You still need to learn but the network is the real value you're paying for.
If you've got two candidates, both have a piece of paper but one of them comes with a recommendation from another employee... Who are you going to hire? The old adage is true, it's who you know.
This is my experience in Chem, other areas of study might be different.
If you're straight out of school and just cramming to get through with little interest in the subject matter, I'd defer.
I think university can expand your mind and teach you ways of thinking that you wouldn't develop if you just went into the workforce etc.
This depends on which uni and faculty you go to etc.
But for myself, I think about things so much more deeply and from many more angles, and listen to many more voices to then reach a view of something, and even then it's malleable depending on evidence and arguments and such.
Yeah it's good to network and know people. But you don't need to get a network at uni. It helps certainly! But you can build a network anytime with anyone. Again really may depend on what course you do though, and where your uni network goes.
Disagree. You can network all you like, but in my field (law), unless you have a WAM above 70 (good uni) or 80 (shit uni), good firms aren't going to even give you an interview, much less a job.
ATO data shows that law graduates don't need to work at a good firm to earn a high salary compared to the reset of the population though - hell, they don't even need to work in law.
It's obviously also worth it to many people for whom their chosen area of study holds particular meaning to them, even if it isn't as financially advantageous having never got exposure to a particular field and becoming a carpenter or sparky instead.
This. The value of a standard bachelor has decreased significantly, especially when universities became incentivised to pass subpar students. I just read the article and as someone with a degree currently doing postgrad studies, the transition from graduate to employed is hard for everyone
I just got told by a recruiter to expect a grad position for 60-80k whilst working through part time uni fulltime for a maths engineering double degree with honours. Was on 100k before this but with not many growth opportunities. Hope it's the right choice long term..
Out of interest why is the recruiter / employer pushing a double maths / engineering?
What field of engineering is that?
I am in civil and been in it for 20 years in australia and never come across anyone with a math degree, but i guess civil is probably the least "mathy" one.
A degree from an Australia university is worth less than the paper it's printed on. Absolutely well below the UK and the US in my experience. Do people here actually need to be smart to enter university and complete a degree?
>Do people here actually need to be smart to enter university and complete a degree?
"It depends"
Which degree/department/faculty?
Undergrad? Postgrad?
Which University?
Many of our Universities are up there with US/UK universities. Not many, but at least some of the Group of 8 unis (again depending on faculty).
>Many of our Universities are up there with US/UK universities. Not many, but at least some of the Group of 8 unis (again depending on faculty).
The rankings are about research not teaching quality or job outcomes.
Group of 8 create the worst international graduates, literally cash for degrees.
International students make up 50% of enrolments for g8, you think g8 unis have great programs for remedial students?
So in finance, the degrees aren't worth much. According to anecdotal 'wot I reckon' hiring managers.
Fair enough.
Either way my point still stands - depends on the faculty etc.
But also no matter what degree, even from US or UK top universities, there's a lot of learning to be done on the job too.
Generalising here but no, I regret my degree and I got it via the HECS loan.
I feel like I had an expectation of a social contract and got let down badly. I feel like I got scammed, but the worst part is feeling you got scammed by your own government.
I don't get it as in my team I have people with degrees that aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. Are you talking about being able to land a decent job?
I meant you dont need to be smart, I felt let down because I spent so much money and didn't learn much.
In the end I went off to Europe at my own expense to learn, sad that is the state of education in Aus.
I agree. I had to stop writing in proper English and using simpler words when speaking when I got here as no one could understand formal words here - I think I am getting dumber working in Sydney. Also, Australians don't understand proper jokes and stories. It must be because no one speaks proper English here.
I would put a British 18 year old at the same level as an Australian 30 year old when it comes to work ethic and knowledge. The Brit would be more mature though. Having said this, the Aussie would be 10x more arrogant and 100x more ignorant - see the poster above that said it's possible for some faculties / courses in Australia to be up there with the UK and US LOL
You probably could benefit from living and working in a normal country with people that switch their brains on.
"I would put a British 18 year old at the same level as an Australian 30 year old when it comes to work ethic and knowledge. The Brit would be more mature though. Having said this, the Aussie would be 10x more arrogant and 100x more ignorant"
Thats a controversial take.
That said I had a better work ethic when i was 18 than 45. We were just coming out of a recession. Jobs were pretty scarce. Probably 25 was my peak work ethic truth be told.
Then so far as work ethic went, reckon its just been a downhill slide. You kinda get too comfortable as things just seem to work out.
There is no way i could study and work now. I can barely do one of those things at a time even anymore at the same time as redditing.
Guess global shocks have been muted in Australia, so there's never been much of a real push here. I'm working at my slowest ever here. I've lost motivation and am getting dumber as each day passes. I fear I won't be able to adjust when I go back. At least I am getting paid Monopoly money that I hope will be worth something when my tenure here ends.
By the way, what is stopping you from working and studying. It sounds like concentration, or is it the time needed?
i dont need to study as ive got two degrees as it is. I just mean what i did after having my first kid at 23 then working and studying at the same time i simply couldnt do now.
i pretty well cannot do anything without an imminent deadline anymore. Even stuff like putting the washing out ill wait till life 360 says the missus is nearly home before rushing out there...
I try that trick where you try and fool yourself into thinking theres a deadline when there isnt. anyway my notoriety and the things i have done in the past seem to mean the career still pays well but i can certainly see why old people get discriminated against when there are older people like me who just get too comfortable.
No I mean, in terms of being scammed by your government.
Taxes and land taxes and fees and fines.. all being shoved into 40bn submarines built by albos cousin's submarine company.. 500m referendums for no reason... The amount of waste is STAGGERING.
It depends what degree at what university ofc.
The employement prospects for some degrees are near 99% with high average wages.
Other degree's literally have worse job prospects than people straight out of high school with no quals or trade ! People need to do some research before they go to Uni
Man this sub's obsession with competition is tedious
If your job is so basic that Pedro with 0 english and 0 quals can suppress your wages then it says something about your skillzzz
So it was always a 'buy a visa' rort, and now it isn't even working properly for the poor suckers?
So we get all the wage suppression and property investment boosts and don't even need to pay as much in welfare in 25-30 years? The neocon dream.
>So it was always a 'buy a visa' rort, and now it isn't even working properly for the poor suckers?
This should be obvious to anyone looking at the list of top countries for international student intake? Australian universities aren't that much better than German or Japanese universities. You can study in English in all of these countries. Less people want to resettle even in a wealthy country where English isn't the dominant language.
…by design.
Excessive mass immigration is creating an underclass of low paid labour.
We have uber and delivery drivers with multiple overseas uni. degrees.
Its not just blue collar/ lower paid jobs though.
The dilution of the professional labour pool is a boon to corporates.
Um no, the literal reason why a lot of international students come here is because they can quite easily get a work visa afterwards and a pathway to permanent residency.
Our educational institutions aren't so great that we'd attract so many students without the visa.
Not compared to universities of similar local prestige/status in other countries. Realistically, our GO8 tries to sell themselves as the Australian equivalent of the Ivy League, despite being nowhere near comparable.
Also, note the studies on soft marking for international students.
https://grattan.edu.au/news/are-international-students-passing-university-courses-at-the-same-rate-as-domestic-students/
Maybe if your aspirations are to get into MBB and your CV is going to some Patrick Bateman wannabe who instinctively scrunches their noses at anything that isn't a Harvard MBA.
But otherwise, Australian universities are some of the best in the world, particularly Melb Uni, USYD and UNSW. Some of them do in fact rank above the Ivy League. Australia punches way above its weight in tertiary education.
Also why has "Ivy League" become the baseline of education quality? You're comically in need of touching grass if you automatically lump anything that isn't "Ivy League" as a poor standard of education.
The ranking are about research not education, if anything the best researchers tend to be terrible teachers. So quality of education is almost certainly not directly related to rankings if not negatively impacted by high rankings.
Regardless of the metrics that rankings use, it's ridiculous to claim that you can't get a good education at Australia.
Yes, there's no university in Australia that's on the level of Harvard. But you can certainly get a fantastic world-class education in Australia. It's completely idiotic to claim otherwise.
> despite the quality of our tertiary educational institutions!
I lived for a decade in a country from which many students come to Australia to study, Australian universities are definitely good quality compared to most of the universities in most of these students' home countries. These are less well off developing countries we're talking about, so the bar isn't that high.
As for why people study here, it's a mix of wanting to immigrate and wanting to come back home with a good quality degree.
Fair. Guess I spent too much time with Oxbridge/UCL/LSE types in my 20s.
Still don't think the quality of our tertiary education is all that great. I studied mechatronics and our uni barely had a robotics lab 🤷
> Our educational institutions aren't so great that we'd attract so many students without the visa.
Compared to universities in many of these students' home countries, they are of a good quality.
I lived abroad for a decade in a country where lots of students come to Australia to study, the reasons are a mix of both going back home with a good degree, and immigrating here.
You thought wrong. Any international student who studies here for at least two years is eligible for a bridging visa as a pathway to getting PR. And the only way to *get* PR is to find a job in their field and keep it for at least 2-4 more years.
If we followed your sage advice and didn't hire anybody without PR, then *nobody* would ever get PR, since you need to get a job first to get it. And I'm a little confused - do you think it's not discrimination if people aren't citizens? If they are eligible for the job, the best candidate, and the company doesn't employ them purely on the basis of their race or nationality, that seems like the very definition of discrimination to me.
Who is checking that their job is actually in the field they studied?
I know overseas migrants who have achieved PR yet never landed a job in their uni field. Someone might be telling porkers.
illegal waiting brave wise dazzling chunky melodic roll spotted simplistic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Was my pathway into the country from the UK. Came over to work for the family business, and putting me on a student visa with a pathway into company sponsored PR was the way to do it.
Pretty much. Always love weighing in on immigration arguments.
Got told I will never earn more than 100k because of the bamboo ceiling yet I’m 29 and own a 3 bed with the mrs.
Doesn't matter, we're talking about grads getting work. You had a family business you said you worked for in Australia. That's a huge difference regardless of country of origin etc.
Mate working for family you get stiffed a lot worse.
I’m watching peers do half the job for the same salary.
I’ve interviewed for other companies offered $30-40k bumps and had to use it for leverage. Working for family is good for security but that’s it.
> Thought internationals were meant to come here for a university degree then go back home once they finished, not come here on an university visa to live here?
It's a mix of both really. Some want to live here, some want to go back to their home countries after getting a Australian degree (seen as being better than a degree from their home countries usually).
There are bottlenecks in the reverse scenario as well that could improve quality of living; Australia not recognising experience / qualifications from international candidates seamlessly (or with less bureaucracy). I currently have a staff member working a lowly position who’s a qualified doctor in LATAM and practiced for years yet is having a very long process to get recognised in Australia. That’s a doctor who could alleviate pressure in hospitals or go rural yet is completely under-utilised. And I know she’s not the only one in that position.
We don’t really have a shortage of skilled people who want to be doctors and that’s not really what’s straining our hospitals, the skills that governments genuinely want are high stress care based like nursing, aged care, early childcare etc
If the government made a new tier of doctor that is exclusively limited to bulk billing in the middle of the woods then it would be something that gets pushed
Except it absolutely is not that, at all.
International students don’t have to come here to study. If they do, they don’t have to stay past their studies.
That’s a choice they make.
Hiring PR only is not being discriminatory. The reality is that you don't have permanent work rights. Grad programs are intended to train new staff as a long term employee. Hiring a non-PR means company have to spend extra costs on PR sponsorships and there's still a high risk that you will get denied a PR anyway.
Not hiring you because you have temporary work rights is not discriminatory.
Given your post calling people “losers” I’d hazard a guess and say it’s got something to do with your personality.
> If you actually read the article, many of the reforms proposed are very sensible and make sure the competition is fairer
I read the article I dont understand your point.
This is about people coming to "study" in bogus or pointless courses for the express purpose of working and potentially getting PR. Im not sure its really relevant to a CS grad.
Youre missing the point, PR is the cherry, but the aim is to work min wage jobs for as long as possible.
2-3 years as a student (which means a bogus vocational course), + 2 years for graduate to work non stop and save money. They cant get skilled migration because they dont have any useful qualifications, thats the point.
No PR is a no brainer for exclusion from entry level professional jobs.
Way too many local graduates who are citizens (and therefore these are the people our politicians are elected to serve, not visitors from overseas) for the few professional jobs available.
Paying for a degree from an Australian University is a discrete transaction, work rights for visitors on temporary visas is a separate issue
Geez, what a spiteful comment.
Sorry that people think the government should look after its citizens first, they dont have another country to skulk back to when they need.
Nice summary of the Guardian talking points, yawn.
A lot of international students are beyond mediocre in G8 unis. I had to carry many a group project when I was there, sometimes completing the entire thing myself.
Of course you are helping people like you, that's no surprise
If they're so "mediocre", why are you worried that they will outcompete local students for grad jobs? As has been pointed out many times, international students are at a distinct disadvantage to local students if all other factors are equal, so if anybody is losing their grad spot to an international student, they must be really, really, really shitty. And there are plenty of fields where there just *aren't* enough local graduates to meet demand.
This ignores the fact that companies will often just hire the worker who is willing to work for the lowest salary seeing most grads will otherwise look "equal" on paper due to a lack of work experience though.
Which has a cascading effect to driving down wages.
1. Not all are mediocre, but many are
2. Increased competition drives down wages
3. Grad programs are already extremely difficult to get into for Australian citizens, we don't need more applicants
4. We already have skilled migration programs to address skills shortages
The mediocre point was in response to your insult of local graduates (very telling for a hiring manager to reveal that tidbit...).
I've outlined my points elsewhere, we are a small country and our elected representatives are there to create policy that benefits citizens, not temporary visitors.
International students are on a student visa, the purpose of which is cristal clear
We should be making it easy for them to compete fairly for skilled jobs though.
Letting international students in to study for skilled roles and then making it difficult for them to get the job seems counterproductive.
The fact of the matter is poor plebs like us fight the poor migrants when the rich lords exploit the poor migrants and then just keep the ones that provide more bang for their buck.
Tbh migration would benefit me regardless, I just think we should be looking after Australians first.
Immigration is weird because the party of labour supports it
if you think internationals are so mediocre then they won't have an impact on your wages anyway - it's not like skilled professions like high-end software devs, consultants at Bain/McKinsey/Boston, engineers, lawyers, surgeons, dentists etc are threatened in any way so whatever your job is, you will be fine.
I'm a hiring manager and I just bin any resumes from international students. I did a professional master's degree and it was shocking that there are a large cohort of students with inadequate English proficiency. They are too busy working in Uber delivery or any other work. Second, Australian citizens should always have priority for career opportunities.
>local graduates mediocre
First person I have ever heard say this.
Would have heard at least 30 people telling me exactly the opposite . Immigrant graduates a very bad reputation for a reason.
The top grads at the G8 uni I went to were all locals and had extensive extracurriculars (school captain, captain of the footy team, president of a student society etc.)
Quite a few were second gen immigrants but no internationals.
The top internationals were mega nerds with a lopsided skillset (ability to study around the clock and memorise a lot of information), low to medium soft skills and zero athletic ability
Edit: the reason it's mostly internationals in tech firms is because that type of work is for nerds. Other top fields that locals prefer like top tier law, finance, consulting etc. it's a different story
I tried to paste the content of the article in here as I find it helps ensure more informed discussion, but this sub auto-deletes a ton of content for some reason...
I agree, lots of the reforms proposed are sensible and there are many companies and individuals playing the system.
As the article points out though "many graduates struggle to find a job in their chosen professional field" and I have a real concern that being too strict would result in us giving up on a lot of graduates too early that genuinely do want a job but just can't find one immediately.
Not everyone is as exceptional as you to be able to straight away make it into the companies will accept PR grads.
I know a bunch of people (including my wife) who struggled to find work after graduating as an international student, but later went on to being very successful in Australia.
Let me give you another generic example that isn’t about graduate jobs.
In the UK, they used to prioritize UK then EU then rest of the world applicants. This is the same deal as every other developed western country. Even Singapore, which is very business and foreigner friendly has discriminatory local quotas for citizens.
Australia already has some of the developed world’s most lenient policies with immigration. As someone who has probably researched other country’s (US in particular!) immigration schemes you’d know this.
I originally pasted it in here but it gets auto-deleted because it probably has words relating to politics in it which appear to make text get automatically removed on this sub.
Use the website "12ft dot io" to get around it (not gonna post the actual URL in case *that* gets auto deleted too)
Group of friends that work in the same industry have been looking for work over the last 6 months (already employed)
They noted each month they've seen a decline in roles available
Our line of work can be done by foreign workers, aligns with the hike in students and offshore people moving here
Import people to hand our universities absurd amounts of money in return for a degree that gets them nowhere professionally but gives them a slim chance at a permanent residency in a country where the tap water doesn’t insta-kill you. Brilliant scheme, big corp, brilliant.
Don’t forget the governments role in importing them en masse
Our government is a corporation
And most corps don’t consider international grads for graduate roles because they don’t have permanent residency. People who make it into grad program are consistently ahead of people who work their way up from clerical roles even though there is no discernible difference in their skills. Sadly, these are the sacrifices first generation immigrants make.
A lot of people are parroting this, but this does not provide enough context on the whole situation. Getting work visa is actually the easiest part for a lot of graduates. Finding actual work related to the course studied with just the work visa, however, is the main stumbling block. Even if the students are eligible to apply for PR right after graduation, they still have to at least wait 6-12 months for the PR to be approved. However, those who are not eligible right away have to find a relevant job to get PR, but no one will hire you without PR, so a chicken and egg situation. Even then, the eligible graduates will need to look for a graduate role as soon as their PR are approved as to not leave too big of a gap in their resume. I am lucky to be eligible right away as I always had decent English skills (IELTS all band 8.0 or above - this is actually a lot harder to achieve than most Australians think), but having graduated during the mining bust in the country, it took me 4 years of working minimum wage jobs in the industry before finally landing an engineering role. Looking for the first job was way harder than anything else, as recruiters absolutely do not look at you fondly when they saw that you have graduated a couple year ago but still have yet to find a relevant job. Most of them will immediately place your resume onto the reject pile, as they think that you are not good enough if you haven't found anything after so long. Add in a non-European name and all of the sudden looking for a relevant job becomes an incredibly daunting task. Of course there are exceptions, like for example a female engineer looking to do FIFO work, because all of them will be instantly hired. The treatment and lifestyle that they had to endure doing FIFO work though, is a whole other can of works.
I mean it should be harder for foreign visa holders than locals. If anything it should actually be a lot harder that it currently is.
I agree with that. It sounds harsh, but IMO the purpose of student visas is to get a degree not permanent migration. If you manage to obtain permanent residency by landing a job in your field straight after graduation with a company that sponsored you, great. However, it should not be easy or seen as the norm. I think local graduates should always be prioritised and given the best possible chance to find a graduate role and also a decent salary.
But what about the skills shortage? There are not enough workers so prices are higher. It's no different to Qantas making huge profits because of lack of competition from foreign companies.
There’s no skill shortages. There are shortages of lower paid workers. The “skills shortage” is an excuse that has been used for a decade as we ramped immigration to the roof. If it hasn’t been solved by the addition of 7 million people since 2000 (2000 pop 19m; 2023 pop 26m) then it’s never going to be solved.
If there is shortage of workers why are'nt wages going up ? [https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/wage-price-index-australia/latest-release](https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/economy/price-indexes-and-inflation/wage-price-index-australia/latest-release) You mention qantas, price of flights is through the roof but wages still under below inflation for many many years now.
Pay and Indian university to get a degree and it’s a ticket to Australia with no knowledge or practical skills in the field. Then just get some basic job for the lifestyle and moneyz.
Well. You're not wrong; so you've got that going for you; which is nice. Another plus of this "system" is it helps us around a demographic crunch we might otherwise eventually find causes severe constraints in our economy. Also. When I'm old, frail, and decrepit I'll need some unemployed masters degree holders to feed me, bathe me, and wipe my arse.
The demographic crunch is coming anyway as pretty much all the places we get these immigrants are either having a demographic crunch now or on track to have one in a few decades. By my reckoning it will happen about the time I’ll need aged care workers meaning they’ll be scarce.
It's almost as though migrants age too. Migrants who clamber to bring their own aged parents over as well. But hey, the big end of town gets fatter and the landlords in parliament are laughing!
If we are doing it for demographics and ageing then we need to end the Parent Visa TODAY. We don’t need more grannies here.
"More immigration, especially in rapidly aging countries, would help slow the growth of the age dependency ratio. While immigrants will eventually age, a significant inflow of young working-age people during the years of greatest native decline will allow a gradual and more manageable transition." https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/can-immigration-solve-the-demographic-dilemma-peri#:~:text=More%20immigration%2C%20especially%20in%20rapidly,gradual%20and%20more%20manageable%20transition.
The IMF appears to have not considered the possibility that the global south might one day experience the same demographics as the global north, even as major countries such as India and Mexico begin to experience below replacement and China actually begins to shrink. That article offers no solution for the situation of the available number of migrants shrinking.
Sure but while the immigrant tap is running, why not drink from it instead of instantly die from thirst?
That’s fine - but what’s the plan when it runs out?
Let's hope they have the skills for that/s
Immigrants are not sufficiently younger than Citizens to shift the tax base , Immigrants also age, So you are🦵 kicking the can down the road,
>Immigrants are not sufficiently younger than Citizens to shift the tax base They absolutely are, you're wrong on this point - but yes, it is an exercise in kicking the can down the road. No society has yet figured out how to maintain high economic growth with a rapidly aging populace, though Japan seems to be doing well at maintaining societal stability in the face of slowing growth.
Great for Uber Eats, that’s for sure
These are the choices, we do this or aus becomes a superpower in statecraft in the region. Which costs dollars, and Australians are exactly suited for. Take your pick.
Disaster-Deck-Diversion
Unclear what you are getting at. Edit I don't know why you are downvoting me for what you and your countrymen chose.
Because it doesn't mean much to graduate from an Australian university anymore. It just means you spent a lot of money.
I've marked Masters students at a top university here. If I was allowed, I wouldn't have passed many of them.
As a domestic student in my master's group assignment I had to carry the 4 international students on my back who could hardly string a sentence together in English.
It sucks I know.
They’ll have other assessments too
I've also worked at a top university and was quite abhorred by the English level of some Master students from overseas. Some can't even speak proper conversational English.
>I've also worked at a top university and was quite abhorred by the English level of some Master students from overseas. Some can't even speak proper conversational English. Same. And you're not really allowed to mark them too harshly. Some students who I would've failed (and very convincingly failed) I'm sure got their marks bumped up to pass. It sucks. They don't deserve to pass.
It's interesting to look at the Census data changes from the 2016 to 2021 in the "Persons Not Fluent in English" categories and the large increase that has taken place; this is Sydney for example: [https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/4PbLK/3/](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/4PbLK/3/) Wonder if it is a knock-on effect from Universities not properly enforcing minimum standards for fluency as part of course admission requirements?
Is university even worth it at this point? Just completed my first semester, and between the cost and the competition I'm starting to consider going into a trade.
You *can* get a lot from university but most 17-18yos aren't shown where the value is. The network you can establish at uni is probably more important than the piece of paper imo. Rather than studying your arse off, getting good grades and not meeting anyone, you'd be better off meeting as many people as you can in as many different fields as you can (unless you want to stay in academia). You still need to learn but the network is the real value you're paying for. If you've got two candidates, both have a piece of paper but one of them comes with a recommendation from another employee... Who are you going to hire? The old adage is true, it's who you know. This is my experience in Chem, other areas of study might be different. If you're straight out of school and just cramming to get through with little interest in the subject matter, I'd defer.
I think university can expand your mind and teach you ways of thinking that you wouldn't develop if you just went into the workforce etc. This depends on which uni and faculty you go to etc. But for myself, I think about things so much more deeply and from many more angles, and listen to many more voices to then reach a view of something, and even then it's malleable depending on evidence and arguments and such. Yeah it's good to network and know people. But you don't need to get a network at uni. It helps certainly! But you can build a network anytime with anyone. Again really may depend on what course you do though, and where your uni network goes.
Disagree. You can network all you like, but in my field (law), unless you have a WAM above 70 (good uni) or 80 (shit uni), good firms aren't going to even give you an interview, much less a job.
ATO data shows that law graduates don't need to work at a good firm to earn a high salary compared to the reset of the population though - hell, they don't even need to work in law.
At this point it's just a white collar job tax. If you want white collar job you gotta pay the tax. It's payable in time and money.
Uni is worth it if you do a competitive degree at a good university and get good marks.
It's obviously also worth it to many people for whom their chosen area of study holds particular meaning to them, even if it isn't as financially advantageous having never got exposure to a particular field and becoming a carpenter or sparky instead.
This. The value of a standard bachelor has decreased significantly, especially when universities became incentivised to pass subpar students. I just read the article and as someone with a degree currently doing postgrad studies, the transition from graduate to employed is hard for everyone
I just got told by a recruiter to expect a grad position for 60-80k whilst working through part time uni fulltime for a maths engineering double degree with honours. Was on 100k before this but with not many growth opportunities. Hope it's the right choice long term..
Out of interest why is the recruiter / employer pushing a double maths / engineering? What field of engineering is that? I am in civil and been in it for 20 years in australia and never come across anyone with a math degree, but i guess civil is probably the least "mathy" one.
Yeah, they even give you a special table to calculate how much concrete you need for a given area when you graduate.
Why do you need a table to do the calculations when you could just ask an old Italian guy who does it by eye.
Brutal. Accurate, but brutal.
A degree from an Australia university is worth less than the paper it's printed on. Absolutely well below the UK and the US in my experience. Do people here actually need to be smart to enter university and complete a degree?
>Do people here actually need to be smart to enter university and complete a degree? "It depends" Which degree/department/faculty? Undergrad? Postgrad? Which University? Many of our Universities are up there with US/UK universities. Not many, but at least some of the Group of 8 unis (again depending on faculty).
>Many of our Universities are up there with US/UK universities. Not many, but at least some of the Group of 8 unis (again depending on faculty). The rankings are about research not teaching quality or job outcomes.
True. There’s teaching quality vs student quality too. But yes agreed. Same can be said for teaching quality overseas as well though
Group of 8 create the worst international graduates, literally cash for degrees. International students make up 50% of enrolments for g8, you think g8 unis have great programs for remedial students?
Are you serious, mate? LOL'd so hard
Yes, of course. How am I wrong? Sorry please tell me how 'in your experience' I'm off the mark.
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So you put zero weight on SEA applicants' degrees, but you consider them for domestic applicants?
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So in finance, the degrees aren't worth much. According to anecdotal 'wot I reckon' hiring managers. Fair enough. Either way my point still stands - depends on the faculty etc. But also no matter what degree, even from US or UK top universities, there's a lot of learning to be done on the job too.
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Generalising here but no, I regret my degree and I got it via the HECS loan. I feel like I had an expectation of a social contract and got let down badly. I feel like I got scammed, but the worst part is feeling you got scammed by your own government.
I don't get it as in my team I have people with degrees that aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. Are you talking about being able to land a decent job?
I meant you dont need to be smart, I felt let down because I spent so much money and didn't learn much. In the end I went off to Europe at my own expense to learn, sad that is the state of education in Aus.
I agree. I had to stop writing in proper English and using simpler words when speaking when I got here as no one could understand formal words here - I think I am getting dumber working in Sydney. Also, Australians don't understand proper jokes and stories. It must be because no one speaks proper English here. I would put a British 18 year old at the same level as an Australian 30 year old when it comes to work ethic and knowledge. The Brit would be more mature though. Having said this, the Aussie would be 10x more arrogant and 100x more ignorant - see the poster above that said it's possible for some faculties / courses in Australia to be up there with the UK and US LOL You probably could benefit from living and working in a normal country with people that switch their brains on.
"I would put a British 18 year old at the same level as an Australian 30 year old when it comes to work ethic and knowledge. The Brit would be more mature though. Having said this, the Aussie would be 10x more arrogant and 100x more ignorant" Thats a controversial take. That said I had a better work ethic when i was 18 than 45. We were just coming out of a recession. Jobs were pretty scarce. Probably 25 was my peak work ethic truth be told. Then so far as work ethic went, reckon its just been a downhill slide. You kinda get too comfortable as things just seem to work out. There is no way i could study and work now. I can barely do one of those things at a time even anymore at the same time as redditing.
Guess global shocks have been muted in Australia, so there's never been much of a real push here. I'm working at my slowest ever here. I've lost motivation and am getting dumber as each day passes. I fear I won't be able to adjust when I go back. At least I am getting paid Monopoly money that I hope will be worth something when my tenure here ends. By the way, what is stopping you from working and studying. It sounds like concentration, or is it the time needed?
i dont need to study as ive got two degrees as it is. I just mean what i did after having my first kid at 23 then working and studying at the same time i simply couldnt do now. i pretty well cannot do anything without an imminent deadline anymore. Even stuff like putting the washing out ill wait till life 360 says the missus is nearly home before rushing out there... I try that trick where you try and fool yourself into thinking theres a deadline when there isnt. anyway my notoriety and the things i have done in the past seem to mean the career still pays well but i can certainly see why old people get discriminated against when there are older people like me who just get too comfortable.
When did you start behaving and feeling like this? Sounds like a motivation thing and I think I may end up the same if I stick around much longer.
Maybe you're simply associating with morons? Why?
Ho boi.. your not going to like what come after Uni.
I'm done with my degree, I work as a researcher now at unsw, probs gonna try get a remote research gig afterwards
No I mean, in terms of being scammed by your government. Taxes and land taxes and fees and fines.. all being shoved into 40bn submarines built by albos cousin's submarine company.. 500m referendums for no reason... The amount of waste is STAGGERING.
Meh Australia actually does a good job compared to most other countries when it comes to public spending. I'm okay with being taxed.
I disagree it is solely about the quality of Australian degrees. In my experience, many foreign graduates are held up by language barrier issues.
It depends what degree at what university ofc. The employement prospects for some degrees are near 99% with high average wages. Other degree's literally have worse job prospects than people straight out of high school with no quals or trade ! People need to do some research before they go to Uni
Wage suppression at its finest
Don't be ridiculous. How else can we suppress domestic wage growth while propping up property prices and rental demand?
Why are you against importing serfs to keep wages down and rentals up whilst delivering my Uber eats and me in an Uber? Racist!
Man this sub's obsession with competition is tedious If your job is so basic that Pedro with 0 english and 0 quals can suppress your wages then it says something about your skillzzz
This thread is literally about graduates from Australian universities.
Says a lot about Australian universities lol, everyone focuses on the result but no one checks the math.
Immigration doesn't suppress wages
Bingo! I won. Last piece was out of date virtue signaller.
Migration only suppresses the wages of dumb people.
Immigration does suppress wages.
System working as designed. The entire immigration scheme is predicated on keeping wages down for business
So it was always a 'buy a visa' rort, and now it isn't even working properly for the poor suckers? So we get all the wage suppression and property investment boosts and don't even need to pay as much in welfare in 25-30 years? The neocon dream.
> So it was always a 'buy a visa' rort Oh yeah it's a price we pay for increased trade with China and India
>So it was always a 'buy a visa' rort, and now it isn't even working properly for the poor suckers? This should be obvious to anyone looking at the list of top countries for international student intake? Australian universities aren't that much better than German or Japanese universities. You can study in English in all of these countries. Less people want to resettle even in a wealthy country where English isn't the dominant language.
Seems Canada and Australia have the same issues. Any degree that is not a hard science seems to be useless.
Science degree's are useless too mate. Engineering and medical training does best.
That's a feature, not a bug.
I mean, too many graduates in low-pay, low-skill jobs in general, no?
…by design. Excessive mass immigration is creating an underclass of low paid labour. We have uber and delivery drivers with multiple overseas uni. degrees. Its not just blue collar/ lower paid jobs though. The dilution of the professional labour pool is a boon to corporates.
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Um no, the literal reason why a lot of international students come here is because they can quite easily get a work visa afterwards and a pathway to permanent residency. Our educational institutions aren't so great that we'd attract so many students without the visa.
I'd almost reframe it as: Our visas are so great that we attract so many students *despite* the quality of our tertiary educational institutions!
The G8 are not quality tertiary educational institutions?
Not compared to universities of similar local prestige/status in other countries. Realistically, our GO8 tries to sell themselves as the Australian equivalent of the Ivy League, despite being nowhere near comparable. Also, note the studies on soft marking for international students. https://grattan.edu.au/news/are-international-students-passing-university-courses-at-the-same-rate-as-domestic-students/
Maybe if your aspirations are to get into MBB and your CV is going to some Patrick Bateman wannabe who instinctively scrunches their noses at anything that isn't a Harvard MBA. But otherwise, Australian universities are some of the best in the world, particularly Melb Uni, USYD and UNSW. Some of them do in fact rank above the Ivy League. Australia punches way above its weight in tertiary education. Also why has "Ivy League" become the baseline of education quality? You're comically in need of touching grass if you automatically lump anything that isn't "Ivy League" as a poor standard of education.
postgrad degrees at unimelb are largely a total joke - particularly the coursework ones. You have absolutely *no* idea what you're talking about.
The ranking are about research not education, if anything the best researchers tend to be terrible teachers. So quality of education is almost certainly not directly related to rankings if not negatively impacted by high rankings.
Not true. There are three main ranking systems, they all take many elements into account. I don't think you are qualified to comment.
Regardless of the metrics that rankings use, it's ridiculous to claim that you can't get a good education at Australia. Yes, there's no university in Australia that's on the level of Harvard. But you can certainly get a fantastic world-class education in Australia. It's completely idiotic to claim otherwise.
> despite the quality of our tertiary educational institutions! I lived for a decade in a country from which many students come to Australia to study, Australian universities are definitely good quality compared to most of the universities in most of these students' home countries. These are less well off developing countries we're talking about, so the bar isn't that high. As for why people study here, it's a mix of wanting to immigrate and wanting to come back home with a good quality degree.
Fair. Guess I spent too much time with Oxbridge/UCL/LSE types in my 20s. Still don't think the quality of our tertiary education is all that great. I studied mechatronics and our uni barely had a robotics lab 🤷
> Our educational institutions aren't so great that we'd attract so many students without the visa. Compared to universities in many of these students' home countries, they are of a good quality. I lived abroad for a decade in a country where lots of students come to Australia to study, the reasons are a mix of both going back home with a good degree, and immigrating here.
You thought wrong. Any international student who studies here for at least two years is eligible for a bridging visa as a pathway to getting PR. And the only way to *get* PR is to find a job in their field and keep it for at least 2-4 more years. If we followed your sage advice and didn't hire anybody without PR, then *nobody* would ever get PR, since you need to get a job first to get it. And I'm a little confused - do you think it's not discrimination if people aren't citizens? If they are eligible for the job, the best candidate, and the company doesn't employ them purely on the basis of their race or nationality, that seems like the very definition of discrimination to me.
Who is checking that their job is actually in the field they studied? I know overseas migrants who have achieved PR yet never landed a job in their uni field. Someone might be telling porkers.
illegal waiting brave wise dazzling chunky melodic roll spotted simplistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Was my pathway into the country from the UK. Came over to work for the family business, and putting me on a student visa with a pathway into company sponsored PR was the way to do it.
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Pretty much. Always love weighing in on immigration arguments. Got told I will never earn more than 100k because of the bamboo ceiling yet I’m 29 and own a 3 bed with the mrs.
You also came to work for an established family business...
I'm from Belgium - no family business needed, just the right skin colour
Doesn't matter, we're talking about grads getting work. You had a family business you said you worked for in Australia. That's a huge difference regardless of country of origin etc.
That's the other white guy. No family business here.
I tell you mate, all these white guys look the same. /S My bad
Mate working for family you get stiffed a lot worse. I’m watching peers do half the job for the same salary. I’ve interviewed for other companies offered $30-40k bumps and had to use it for leverage. Working for family is good for security but that’s it.
Yeah must be tough working for ya dad champ ........
> Thought internationals were meant to come here for a university degree then go back home once they finished, not come here on an university visa to live here? It's a mix of both really. Some want to live here, some want to go back to their home countries after getting a Australian degree (seen as being better than a degree from their home countries usually).
Re-train. Analogy - would you let a fresh builder from OS build your home to their building codes.
Oi leave my Ponzi scheme alone... i didn't work hard for my inherited wealth and easy access to a serf labour force.
There are bottlenecks in the reverse scenario as well that could improve quality of living; Australia not recognising experience / qualifications from international candidates seamlessly (or with less bureaucracy). I currently have a staff member working a lowly position who’s a qualified doctor in LATAM and practiced for years yet is having a very long process to get recognised in Australia. That’s a doctor who could alleviate pressure in hospitals or go rural yet is completely under-utilised. And I know she’s not the only one in that position.
We don’t really have a shortage of skilled people who want to be doctors and that’s not really what’s straining our hospitals, the skills that governments genuinely want are high stress care based like nursing, aged care, early childcare etc If the government made a new tier of doctor that is exclusively limited to bulk billing in the middle of the woods then it would be something that gets pushed
student visas is just the aussie way of human trafficking
Except it absolutely is not that, at all. International students don’t have to come here to study. If they do, they don’t have to stay past their studies. That’s a choice they make.
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Hiring PR only is not being discriminatory. The reality is that you don't have permanent work rights. Grad programs are intended to train new staff as a long term employee. Hiring a non-PR means company have to spend extra costs on PR sponsorships and there's still a high risk that you will get denied a PR anyway.
Not hiring you because you have temporary work rights is not discriminatory. Given your post calling people “losers” I’d hazard a guess and say it’s got something to do with your personality.
> If you actually read the article, many of the reforms proposed are very sensible and make sure the competition is fairer I read the article I dont understand your point. This is about people coming to "study" in bogus or pointless courses for the express purpose of working and potentially getting PR. Im not sure its really relevant to a CS grad.
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A big portion of people are here only for the low paying, non-specialised jobs though, its naive to think otherwise.
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Youre missing the point, PR is the cherry, but the aim is to work min wage jobs for as long as possible. 2-3 years as a student (which means a bogus vocational course), + 2 years for graduate to work non stop and save money. They cant get skilled migration because they dont have any useful qualifications, thats the point.
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Yes, which is why I dont get your original comment about competition being fairer.
No PR is a no brainer for exclusion from entry level professional jobs. Way too many local graduates who are citizens (and therefore these are the people our politicians are elected to serve, not visitors from overseas) for the few professional jobs available. Paying for a degree from an Australian University is a discrete transaction, work rights for visitors on temporary visas is a separate issue
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Geez, what a spiteful comment. Sorry that people think the government should look after its citizens first, they dont have another country to skulk back to when they need.
Nice summary of the Guardian talking points, yawn. A lot of international students are beyond mediocre in G8 unis. I had to carry many a group project when I was there, sometimes completing the entire thing myself. Of course you are helping people like you, that's no surprise
If they're so "mediocre", why are you worried that they will outcompete local students for grad jobs? As has been pointed out many times, international students are at a distinct disadvantage to local students if all other factors are equal, so if anybody is losing their grad spot to an international student, they must be really, really, really shitty. And there are plenty of fields where there just *aren't* enough local graduates to meet demand.
This ignores the fact that companies will often just hire the worker who is willing to work for the lowest salary seeing most grads will otherwise look "equal" on paper due to a lack of work experience though. Which has a cascading effect to driving down wages.
1. Not all are mediocre, but many are 2. Increased competition drives down wages 3. Grad programs are already extremely difficult to get into for Australian citizens, we don't need more applicants 4. We already have skilled migration programs to address skills shortages
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The mediocre point was in response to your insult of local graduates (very telling for a hiring manager to reveal that tidbit...). I've outlined my points elsewhere, we are a small country and our elected representatives are there to create policy that benefits citizens, not temporary visitors. International students are on a student visa, the purpose of which is cristal clear
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Person on temporary visa wants the same rights as citizens in a foreign country, OK got it
We should be making it easy for them to compete fairly for skilled jobs though. Letting international students in to study for skilled roles and then making it difficult for them to get the job seems counterproductive.
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What country are you from so I can rock up and demand everything be handed to me?
The fact of the matter is poor plebs like us fight the poor migrants when the rich lords exploit the poor migrants and then just keep the ones that provide more bang for their buck.
Tbh migration would benefit me regardless, I just think we should be looking after Australians first. Immigration is weird because the party of labour supports it
if you think internationals are so mediocre then they won't have an impact on your wages anyway - it's not like skilled professions like high-end software devs, consultants at Bain/McKinsey/Boston, engineers, lawyers, surgeons, dentists etc are threatened in any way so whatever your job is, you will be fine.
I'm a hiring manager and I just bin any resumes from international students. I did a professional master's degree and it was shocking that there are a large cohort of students with inadequate English proficiency. They are too busy working in Uber delivery or any other work. Second, Australian citizens should always have priority for career opportunities.
>local graduates mediocre First person I have ever heard say this. Would have heard at least 30 people telling me exactly the opposite . Immigrant graduates a very bad reputation for a reason.
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The top grads at the G8 uni I went to were all locals and had extensive extracurriculars (school captain, captain of the footy team, president of a student society etc.) Quite a few were second gen immigrants but no internationals. The top internationals were mega nerds with a lopsided skillset (ability to study around the clock and memorise a lot of information), low to medium soft skills and zero athletic ability Edit: the reason it's mostly internationals in tech firms is because that type of work is for nerds. Other top fields that locals prefer like top tier law, finance, consulting etc. it's a different story
I tried to paste the content of the article in here as I find it helps ensure more informed discussion, but this sub auto-deletes a ton of content for some reason...
I agree, lots of the reforms proposed are sensible and there are many companies and individuals playing the system. As the article points out though "many graduates struggle to find a job in their chosen professional field" and I have a real concern that being too strict would result in us giving up on a lot of graduates too early that genuinely do want a job but just can't find one immediately. Not everyone is as exceptional as you to be able to straight away make it into the companies will accept PR grads. I know a bunch of people (including my wife) who struggled to find work after graduating as an international student, but later went on to being very successful in Australia.
Let me give you another generic example that isn’t about graduate jobs. In the UK, they used to prioritize UK then EU then rest of the world applicants. This is the same deal as every other developed western country. Even Singapore, which is very business and foreigner friendly has discriminatory local quotas for citizens. Australia already has some of the developed world’s most lenient policies with immigration. As someone who has probably researched other country’s (US in particular!) immigration schemes you’d know this.
We need tradespeople!
Does anyone have a link to bypass the paywall or can someone tell me what it says?
I originally pasted it in here but it gets auto-deleted because it probably has words relating to politics in it which appear to make text get automatically removed on this sub. Use the website "12ft dot io" to get around it (not gonna post the actual URL in case *that* gets auto deleted too)
https://archive.md/sVsYl
Paste the link into here: https://12ft.io/
Working as planned then.
Group of friends that work in the same industry have been looking for work over the last 6 months (already employed) They noted each month they've seen a decline in roles available Our line of work can be done by foreign workers, aligns with the hike in students and offshore people moving here
Your friends work part-time then? Student can only work 24 hours per week
Contract work (ABN) is used to bypass the limit.
all according to plan
They’d still probably be a net benefit to the economy.