I'm worried exactly about the same thing. Wife and I are doing "ok" I guess by general standards (migrants, came here 20 years ago with very little), but will have no generational wealth from our families passing down to us.
2 kids (one teen, one close to), and I can see their future will be very hard. Ideally, I'd like to gift them a 1 bedder each, but that's highly unlikely to happen
However, I always have to remind myself that you can't plan THAT much ahead and that life has a way of shaking things up in a manner that's unpredictable.
I dont think the situation is much better elsewhere, so for the time being I'll try to build as much wealth as I can, while I try to prep my kids to be flexible and adaptable. Future will tell
Completely the same as op and yourself although im single and the cost of housing if you haven't got ridiculous income 200k or generational wealth transfer, in Sydney, is prohibitive and turns life into a grind. I dont even have a house, i have a simple 2br apartment purchased in 2020 that I love but after interest rate rises; mortgage + strata I simply cant afford it (being realistic).
Im seriously looking at euro and even Manchester for example where I can get a similar 2br unit for equivalent 450AUD have a small to NIL mortgage and live a much better life with disposable income earning practically half as much (55% after tax on mortgage now thanks to interest rates, 60% incl strata). Im really over it tbh as are a number of my friends all late 30s / early 40s single, decent incomes but not 200k for example which seems to be what u need round here these days unless youre scoring money from the gramps / parents.
It’s crazy hey , you earn good money (not 200k lol same ! ) but can’t keep up with a 2 bedder unit and have enough $ to enjoy ur weekends holidays etc , why do we do this grind for if we have zero left to enjoy even the small things these days ? God i hope something changes
They do have them, they are around 700 pounds a qtr so about 1300k AUD, way less than my 2600 qtr (and my building doesn't have any luxury facilities or common areas either besides lift, foyer and bin room).
I feel for you !
We too are considering the uk. We lived there before and are aware of the lifestyle difference. But our reasoning is similar. Hve nearly no mortgage, live a simpler and less stressful life.
I'm originally from the UK and I have never really loved Melbourne (my wife is an Aussie) as it doesn't really have the kind of stuff I find interesting and the infrastructure is absurdly bad.
I love the idea of regional Vic. However,
The realisation that I could pretty much buy half a house in the UK with the deposit we have saved here (which would get me about 25% of a 900k house) added to the fact that even in the middle of nowhere you are still close to somewhere of interest/utility.
I’m in the UK. It’s no different. Energy costs (power and fuel) are way higher than Australia. Food was once cheaper but is quickly overtaking Aus. Housing is expensive and wages aren’t any better. Generational wealth is bigger here, although they do have an inheritance tax. Unfortunately it’s not that hard to get around. About the only cheaper thing in the UK is booze.
We lived in the uk a while, our son was born there. Can’t speak for London, but everywhere else, unequivocally is more affordable. Our grocery bill was half of what it was when we were there in 2021. Came back to aus and had to triple checked the bill, thought it was satire.
Yeah I totally get it. It definitely used to be way cheaper for a grocery shop. But as of the last year or so it's jumped up significantly. And that's in Yorkshire. Maybe do a faux Tesco shop online to get the latest feel for it.
Median wage is also about 10k aud less per year here.
I mean go for it if you actually prefer life in the UK. But I wouldn't think it worthwhile if purely for financial reasons.
It’s very common overseas to have multi generations living in the one house. It will be common here as well. I would plan for your kids to be living with you into old age and pass the house onto them. If you like your children, then it ain’t that bad.
That’s true and I like the idea multigenerational homes and personally i never want to be far from my child, but I’m not sure that’s what he will want 😂
Move from the east coast to Adelaide, Perth, or a regional area.
Adelaide property prices are still high, but like-for-like is around a third to half of Sydney's prices.
I live right on the beach in Adelaide, and I would only dream of the same if I lived in Sydney.
The downside is that the jobs market is more difficult, so there are trade-offs, but that will be the same wherever you go.
What country do you think offers the same stability, safety, climate, opportunities, and lifestyle of Australia, but with much cheaper property?
Not sure yet but I don’t think you can ever have a country at ticks all the boxes.
We actually bought rural and spent the last 15 years living remote in the nt and studying and upskilling in our professions.
Living in Adelaide on the beach sounds lovely!!
There are definitely more options in the country outside of Sydney, It just seems harder and harder regardless of the location
This is a ridiculous exaggeration. Ask all the people who grew up in Perth and Adelaide. Most of them found jobs in their home city and still live there. These are cities of 1-2 million people, not small towns.
Just returned from living in Canada and the cost of living is way worse there. Pay the same if not more for everything there and earn half the wage we do here for same jobs.
Cost of living in Aus is definitely harder now, but I don't think it's the worst
Can confirm. Canada and Australia both sailed through the 2008 financial crisis without their housing market crashing. We all thought we were lucky. But the long term result is that our housing is now unaffordable for anyone not already in the market, which includes kids when they grow up.
The increase in real estate prices so far outstripping incomes is such a large policy fail that it will literally change the fabric of Sydney, Melbourne.
Lifetime earnings of someone on median income is less than $2m today, probably closer to $1m. Out of that, they need to pay a lifetime of taxes, and living expenses. When you have a house/apartment in the $1m to $2m ballpark, you’re telling singles on median income to go get fucked unless there is family money.
It’s more possible with 2 incomes, but the need to save for retirement and fund housing… you’re telling a lot of couples to fuck their hopes for progeny. Unless there is family money, borrow to the eye balls or both.
That’s the math. So i don’t think your disillusionment is unreasonable. It’s actually quite rational.
The intergenerational transfers will calcify the classes. Those who have rich parents will continue to be well off. Those who don’t live in subsistence.
Not good for birthrates, social mobility, innovation, economic dynamism or long term social cohesion.
Can politicians fix it? Unlikely because any fix requires a huge build out of housing supply and reducing the gap between real estate prices and incomes (or if your McKinsey & Co, killing off 20% of the population). But Australia decided to make housing into a speculative asset and any politician who wants to actually address the issue is effectively telling a large part of the well to do Australian society (ie real estate investors) to eat shit for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Sorry but don’t have much solutions other than not living in Sydney, Melbourne or other high cost cities.
Just look to NYC as or London as examples - people thinking that there will be some great equalising moment. Those cities are outside of affordability of 90% of people.
I get your point, but, Sydney isn’t NYC or London; two of the coolest cities in the world. And those living in those cities have mobility to move to other parts of the country and buy. Australia is largely locked to the average salaried person, everywhere, bar a few remote and rural spots.
I understand what you're saying and if you can move somewhere else, then why not, but I also think you're not giving your kids and yourself enough credit. Teach your kids critical thinking, entrepreneurship and financial literacy, love them unconditionally and they may do just fine.
I came from proper poorness. I grew up surrounded by MH issues, justice system visits, power cuts and cold showers. I got educated and worked a lot, and found a great partner. Together we managed. I did have a MH breakdown eventually from working too much, but if I had had more support and no kid, I think I would have avoided the breakdown. I did/will get 0 generational wealth transfer but I'm going to be ok.
TL;DR, even if you stay here, if you support your kids in all the other ways - love, education, acceptance, a roof for an extended time, you might be surprised that they will be ok.
Sounds hard for you but awesome tgst you’ve found your way. And it’s true, if we raise him in a way that he feels secure he’ll be ok. But I would like to avoid my son having a MH breakdown from working too much…
Even if they could fix it they won't coz those fucking cunts are all landlords themselves. No one will make themselves eat a shit sandwich of their own creation. Biggest conflict of interest with the 2nd largest problem of today (the first being climate change). Until pollies can't own investment properties or business, and I'm including not passing it to their partner or hiding in some bullshit trust, the divide between rich and poor will continue to expand. Wonder what will happen with childcare if potato man gets to be PM 🙄
Average income is in the $65-$85k range?
Work from 18 to 58 lets say... So 40 years
40 x even $60k is still 2.4M?
Note I don't think these averages are used this way, it isn't an average income over the working life, but an average income considering all working age people?
It’s actually crazy how the country is set up.
Newcomers and those without family wealth are basically guaranteed to fail while pre-2020 home/landowners will continue to get richer by doing nothing.
Nah, we bought in 2016, a 3 bed. Back then, the hope was that we would start out here and upsize when the time was right. We have 4 kids and we can't move anywhere. We are also feeling that our kids won't have much hope to get housing, so are looking at what we can do so we can all stay here together in our little box. No way we are moving, I've had 8 years off work (not for lack of trying to go back to work) raising higher needs kids, and when I return to work (next year hopefully 🤞) Our dual income still won't cut it, as I won't be able to earn much more than 50k full time and re-entering the workforce. Unless wages rise dramatically, and house prices stagnate, we're stuck... but the most ridiculous part of this, is that we are lucky we have even got a house and are able to service (with difficulty) the mortgage, when that was feasible for most at the time that we bought.
I believe in what the OP is worried about but in reality, it is hard to emigrate to a country with similar standards BUT with more realistic housing... sure you see a lot of people here who have German or Irish or whatever background and they can move but... I mean its not super viable for many without those connections.
The way I look at it is that if you are two professional people then you can get into a $500k unit and then have ONE kid. That's it.
That's the best that many in other countries can hope for.
I feel like house ownership is largely done in urban centers here.
I also feel things will likely get worse on the same trend or it will get a LOT worse due to big time economic depression.
A great indictator about how our leaders treat us is that there's now 5yr free visa rights for business clients in China.
I mean... thanks? That does us a HEAP of good :-/
There's no upside.
If you move OS, you may need to come to grips with the fact that you or your children may never be able to afford to return to Australia.
I knew a couple that moved to SE Asia and are leading a comfortable life, but now they can barely afford to return to Australia for a holiday, and their chances of ever returning to live are pretty much zero.
That’s a good point and that must be hard for the couple you know. If we go, we plan on having enough to be able to return.. though hard to know how much is enough.
If you have any way to live overseas, it's not a bad plan. We taught our daughter our native language, and we have real estate there, if one day she decides to live there, it's all set.
Yeah, of course we live in Australia and our life is here. But our entire family lives there, who knows, maybe she will decide to have an adventure. :) Compared to Australia, the apartment we got there was 10% of an Australia property in the same conditions.
The cost of living increases are making everything feel much worse at the moment. It's 15yrs before your child will be venturing out on their own, a lot could change in that time. Also stop comparing your life to others, comparison is the death of joy
It will be worse in 15 years not better.
We are basically at a point where it’s almost cruel to bring kids into this world unless you plan to set them up with a place to live in adulthood.
Lol. I'm pretty sure the only ideology Australians will vote for is neoliberalism. Or did you think the politicians' billionaire owners will stop asking for more?
Attitudes change, and already are. Talk to anyone under age 30 without family money and there is no respect for neoliberalism. Imagine another decade of this housing situation getting worse and worse, we're going to end up with a significant portion of the electorate absolutely fuming and ready for a change.
Not optimistic that it's going to be perfect in the future. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. But our attitudes will definitely change as a country in reaction to the lived experience of the electorate. This happens everywhere, Australia is no exception.
Yep. This is how you get inheritance taxes, land taxes, gift taxes and trust taxes. Get enough of the population not feeling the benefits and the knives come out.
When current taxes aren’t being used to
build affordable housing, more taxes just feed a gov that wasn’t governing properly. It is the essence of rewarding bad governance.
And even in 15 years, it’s not like you just kick them out the door to land on their ass.
You will be able to support them and guide them in the right direction. Build them up to be able to go out and chase their dreams, they’ll have a headstart on a lot of people just by having supportive parents.
I wouldn't trade my life for my boomer parents' lives. They're at the end of their working careers and have worked very hard to get where they are and although they're well off now, they deserve it.
My parents are well off but they really haven’t worked that hard, financially most of their 20s were a write off paid off house from a single income in their 30s, paid off beach house in their 40s etc.
Not saying that they are slackers but my wife and I have worked far harder/smarter and are going to struggle to build as much wealth as a bikie with a passion for LSD and a idealistic hippy have managed to accumulate.
For what it’s worth I live in a European country atm and I’m slowly realising it doesn’t make sense to return home. There is no political will in Australia to make life better for people. The only political will is to consolidate power and wealth. It’s a weird feeling.
I have worked since 15 years old and am a teacher. Two children under three years old, husband is a sparky. I totally feel and get everything you are saying. My husband comes from Scotland and we just feel like we are constantly struggling and sacrificing to keep our head above water. In Scotland we have cheaper housing, heaps of friends that are tradies that would help with free labour and lots of family support. Here we are getting ahead because my husband works overtime and we are currently living with my grandparents so we can save 90% of our wages so we can afford a shitty, average home in Brissie. I think you have to do what’s best for you and your family. But know you’re not alone in being fed up and disheartened.
Thanks for your reply and thanks for getting it. It’s so hard for young families who have tried to do everything right.
We are considering moving to Scotland. Any downsides ?
Gosh if you think Australian is bad the U.K. is a bin fire right now (and I say this as someone who loves the U.K. ans goes there twice yearly for work). 14 years of austerity have ruined the U.K. They’ve just done a study showing that people in Glasgow’s lifespans are going down. The NHS is in the toilet. Sewerage is literally being pumped into waterways. Trash everywhere because councils are going broke - Birmingham city is bankrupt. The cost of fuel and transport in the U.K. is insane. Groceries aren’t much better these days nor is housing. Wages are crap and the economy is closer to a recession than ours is.
I see a lot of people complaining about Australia on Reddit but most of the western world is going through the same issues if not worse than we are. OP the grass is not always greener. Most of my U.K. friends are contemplating moving to Australia.
To me it really feels like strata fees are a significant pain even right now, let alone the astronomical rises that will be needed to fix structural issues from rushed and dodgy builds in the not too distant future.
Yep, no future in this country without family money
Or crime
Or NDIS rorts
Just don't think your wages can ever compete at auction with someone else's recent capital gains
I feel the same way. I am assured though that my property will go to my children, as long as I don’t spend it. Until I go they will live with me if they can’t afford to be independent. After that they can sell to buy somewhere they want to live.
I don’t think migrating is the solution, unless you already have zero family members. As a child of migrants I am desperate for other family who are so far away.
You might not feel you need them but there are moments in life when you do (as long as they aren’t terrible)
Even now my aging parents live a long way away from me (their choice) and now I’m a bit screwed trying to look after the them and my own children. You can’t do everything online / by phone.
I recently moved to Sydney from Adelaide due to work. Property in Sydney is insane. However I’d consider other states before moving abroad.
SA is very affordable. I bought a house on a modest income. I’d move back without hesitation.
That’s cool to know. I guess I feel like if we lived somewhere other than the east coast we may as well be in a different country lol becuase it’s so far from family anyways. Adelaide is really lovely!!
Toowoomba has houses starting at 400k. Units starting at 240k or so.
Australia is a pretty good place to live I am not sure you will find better overseas.
Not for much longer I live here ( have my whole life) and have watched property jump out of alot of people's reach very quickly because of the "Adelaide's cheap" mentality....
We’re thinking Scotland. We know salaries are less, but so is cost of living and housing. School, uni and healthcare free. No perfect of course, but safe enough and easy access to Europe.
Totally agree, same in nz and Canada. Partners family moved from nz to aus and the family over there is also just getting by.
*and we’ve lived in the uk before, our son was born there. So have an idea of the realities and tgr balance of things.
I’m leaving Scotland to come to Australia permanently in a few months. Let me know if you want any specifics but some of the reasons we are leaving, litter everywhere, cold dark winters that last 7 months, austerity means that public services are on the brink of collapse, NHS at breaking point, salaries are low compared to rest of uk and rest of Europe, cost of fuel is high, cost of food is high, cost of gas/electric one of the highest in the world, public transport is expensive, property market is cooked, anything good sells instantly, rent prices are just as brutal as Australia in comparison to salary if you want to live a commutable distance from work. If you are coming here on what is the average salary you can expect all of the above, if you are already rich you can probably live a good life if you can tolerate the societal failures around you and dark winters. University is only free in Scotland if you are Scottish or have been schooled here for a certain amount of time, English pay full price and international fees are very high.
The good things are the scenery, the people, cheap flights to Europe.
We’ve moved from the uk to Australia because we felt the same way about life over there! Since the uk left the EU the cost of living has gone crazy.
I would love to live somewhere else in Europe but career progression is limited. (I used to work in Spain) So it’s always going to be a trade off unfortunately.
Living abroad isn't all it's cracked up to be. Most Western countries are suffering the same cost of living issues as Australia. The cheap countries on the other hand pay terribly low wages, so are only cheap compared to an Australian salary.
I moved overseas a couple years ago, and moving back to Australia if I have kids is an serious discussion I've had. Australia still offers well paying jobs and opportunities as well as a high standard of living comparatively. Plenty of young graduates getting good jobs that after a few years of work will pay close to the average salary (in Melbourne at least) and there are still plenty of free standing houses within 1hr drive or train ride of the city for 500-600k.
If you want another perspective, look at New Zealand. Their net migration numbers are terrible, with almost half leaving are coming to Australia. Due to higher paying jobs here and better standard of living.
Yes true all western and non western countries having issues.
Partner migrated from nz, said he wouldn’t really consider going back. So yes, kiwis are elusive nz for better work opportunity here.
Man, the childcare years are tough… we were paying more on daycare than our mortgage for a while there. It’s hard to see the future.
Our kids are now in primary school and the childcare has come down. We are also now a decade into ownership, and we can see our equity in the home on paper, and our mortgage payments are, well, based on our 13 year old mortgage which has lower rates and a lower purchase price.
Time moves like that. It’s a hard slog now, but as prices grow around you, your capital and income both grow too. You won’t always be doing this hard of a slog, in time it gets easier and you get glimpses of light.
But if you are up for the adventure - what a gift to give your kid! Trust your heart!
You should stop comparing your life with others. But I wouldn't move abroad just because of that reason. There are so many other perks that Australia has to offer. You could save as much money you want for your child but doesn't mean they will also use it properly too. So why not live somewhere that you want and provide the best environment for your child.
I was recently in Zurich for work and pretty much all of the people I met lived in (admittedly solid, well built) apartments with access to a lifestyle that would be enviable to most.
Yet for some reasons Aussies cling onto this “dream” of vacuous, overpriced, cheaply built houses in the middle of nowhere with long commutes and a soulless, depressing existence.
I’m generalizing of course, but speaking to colleagues here, that is exactly what their life is like.
Because suburbia necessitate vacuous houses to justify its existence. No one cares in Geneva (or Paris or whatever other big city you want to name) because the trade off is they get to live in a dynamic and bustling city. You’re not going to convince someone to aspire to live in an apartment in Blacktown and pay half a million for the privilege
lol i stopped reading on the 1st sentence
like $500k for a 1 bedder??? in bris.
you cannot make a life here. if you're doing the minimum ie. a couple and kid this isnt going to work out
further australians seem to HATE the unit life and i get it
units are largely shit unless you buy from 50yrs ago and stratas suck
but hey its better than renting, hawk tuah!
Yeah I guess I never expected him to one day buy a 3+1, but even for him to take out a 475k mortgage he’d still need a very tidy salary or a partner. And that 500k In 15 years might be closer to 700k?
I like your point though and keeping things in perspective is important.
teach them to save early. Anyone getting started early will be fine. Sit them down with a compound interest calculator and show them what 50/100/200 ect. bucks a week does over a 40 year life time of investing with average market returns does for your life.
better yet. Start doing that for them now no matter how small the amount is
I think this is the major issue, its not that the housing prices are impossible, what people are actually saying is that 'getting exactly what I want is impossible'
That's really the truth to a lot of peoples scenarios, obviously some have it harder than other.
But this mentality doesn't help.
If you are willing to live an hour from melbourne there are tons of affordable options, certainly full houses for under 600k.
But the truth is, people want to live in the prime spots that everyone wants to live, and they want to do so only a 600k budget.
Its not realistic.
This is certainly true but not everyone can wfh now so it's not really a choice. Either move away and earn less or stay and spend more kind of makes it a wash.
or commute, I know people that commute an hour each way in the morning and night.
Its not ideal, but it allows them to have the lifestyle they want outside of work hours as they don't have the same monetary constraints that paying a million dollar mortgage create.
Let look at Packenham in Victoria's east, or whittlesea in the north.
Packenham is an hour drive, or 1:11 on the train.
There are tons of houses around the 600k price point.
Whittlesea also has plenty of housing around 600k and is also an hour drive or an 1:20 on the train.
That's fine, but that removes the ability for you to genuinely complain about the cost of housing.
Which is where this entire conversation stems from.
As my original statement said, its not that the housing cost is not doable, its just not doable when people are willing to sacrifice nothing.
Lets say you don't want an hour drive. Ok, get a 2 bedroom apartment 25 minutes east of Melbourne CBD, you are still under 600k.
But we are back at the same problem, people want 4 bedroom, backyard, large block, 30 minutes from the city, near transport, near shopping, but also only to pay 750k
While these 1 bedders sound ok.
When it comes time to sell the person will have a very hard time making money. They might break even or barely make a small profit. Not a smart move IMO.
Best thing they could do is pay down the loan hard and fast and then use the extra from selling to upgrade.
lol so is the problem that Australia’s housing is overpriced? Or just that it was overpriced before I was able to buy?
If we’re complaining about diminishing opportunities for future generations then why are we demanding capital appreciation on more housing?
Exactly.
Fuck these greedy people speculating on property - as long as I get to buy low and sell high. 😄
The irony of the above poster’s comment has completely passed them by. 🤦♂️
In what way is this financial dysmorphia when OP is more so concerned about their child's future? We don't actually know OPs position. Unless OP has 1m+ stashed away as a deposit for their kid in say 15-20 years time, their concerns are very much valid. I emplore you to consider where the median Sydney house price will be at that time.
Okay I don’t think I have that… This is more concern over my sons future. And I think many young people feel right to feel behind and upset especially seeing our parents generation do comparatively far better at similar life stages and be the beneficiaries of the aus property market. Of course, I know many that haven’t done well.
Fucking hell. I'd rather get a bigger body than this stupid affluenza approach to life. At least I'll be looking after myself not just flaunt it for everyone to see and keep up with the Joneses...
Realistically, for my family and I’m sure many others, my kid will inherit our house and we will have another property (think an apartment) for them. So I don’t get generational wealth but will make sure my kid will benefit from it.
And likely our son will too. But then I feel kinda like I might be holding him back in a way because he’ll feel tied to us for a house.. I think like most young people still want to try to do it by themselves for their own dignity. I dunno, maybe I’m seeing it wrong.
That will also depend on how you bring up your kid and what value they put on material wealth. I think good parents strike a balance between giving their kids enough safety net through generational wealth whilst giving them room to strive for more. Perhaps this is what you mean by “still want to try to do it by themselves”?
Your big issues with moving overseas are:
- Residency / work visas
- Healthcare
It’s all well and good to go move to a low cost of living country, but all countries prioritise their own Citizens, and foreigners need to provide for their own retirement planning, healthcare etc and you’re subject to approval for Visas to live and work there.
At least as Australian Citizens you would have access to the pension + Medicare.
Perhaps consider moving to a regional area, rather than Sydney, for opportunities for cheaper housing.
So true, aus has some good benefits.
We would qualify for work visas and looking to a country with free healthcare, or low cost.
We’re planning for our retirement and we don’t want to rely on an old age pension (many elderly people don’t seem to have a great quality of life tbh and with the way things are going, it’s not a guarantee for our generation. And free healthcare in aus is a bit tricky, we pay our taxes to cover Medicare (quite a lot too) and often there is still significant out of pocket expenses. Sadly few places bulk bill anymore.
Also to consider is education for your kids in another country.
What is the quality of local education system? Are foreign children entitled to attend local schools? Do you have to pay for private education? University: attending an overseas university your kids would be liable for international rates. Going to an Aussie Uni gives them access to subsidised University fees + HECS / HELP loans.
If you’ve managed to buy a place in Oz already, planning for retirement etc you’re already ahead. Focus on building wealth and you will certainly have something to pass onto your children, and hopefully able to give them a leg up for their future (and that could be as simple as letting them live rent free while saving a deposit).
If your kids are young now, the housing market is going to be completely different in 30-40 years time.
There is zero future for people that want to work 36 to 38 hours and expect the lifestyle and opportunities of their previous generations.
Those days have come and gone I think it's time we accept it as a society. Well u don't have to accept it... u can cry kicking and screaming at a forum to vent your frustration as a keyboard warrior. Then go back to slaving away nothing will change.
Way I see it we are on the edge... the next few elections will basically decide the shite hole we dug ourselves and the decades of shite we have to look forward to mark my words...
Me I won't be moving to another country already established here. Australia is a pretty cool place to live when you are debt free or someone is paying your bills net positive.
The thing is moving abroad....depends where...how about your visas? Language? Health care? The added challenges and stress? Having been also with migrant parents I have seen how much they have sacrificed, how they had to start from the bottom and also how visas can be particularity challenging and set you back by years. Having gone through my own visas as well and working with my husband for his...it is a lengthly and time consuming process. Husband isn't Australian, however it would also be lengthy process if I moved to his country. I have lived in a few countries, and traveled quite a bit 23+ countries for my age (definitely not as many as avid travelers though) and I still think Australia is pretty good.
I don't think the grass is all that greener particularly when it comes to visas.
I think just do the best you can for your kid. Provide them with love, care, enough skills to do well on their own, and do your best to let them try out things they show interest in. Show them a good example of what a healthy relationship is with you and your wife through happy and challenging times. While I would also love to get some free money or a free house from my parents...it's just something they can't do and I am not entitled to it. No worries though, husband and I also found our ways (still finding actually). To be honest, one thing I would recommend it isn't a house or money; I wish my parents let me try extracurricular activities / experiences I was interested in. However it wasn't something that was their focus or they had the budget for.
Also it is a bit of more of a challenge if you are the second generation immigrants (your parents are the first ones who moved). I think as each generation goes on from the original first generation migrant, it may be slightly easier (financially). Still definitely dependant on a lot of factors though but just from observations of people I know.
Also sometimes being too materialistic can't be too good, or always *only* thinking about the future. Having been an accident where I was *ready* to die and having family in accidents I realised is that - you can't take money to your grave.
Where would you move overseas and buy a “house”? Most cities like sydney your kids would be buying a flat, maybe a flat the size of an Australian lounge room. If you are going to live in a minuscule place in Londom or NYC or Singapore just buy a small old flat in Sydney and you’ll quite possibly have a better quality of life.
I am a 75 year old widow and have a son (55) who rents a flat in inner Melbourne. He is about to be homeless as the owner wants to renovate. He hasn't been able to find a suitable, affordable place to live. Fortunately, I live on 5 acres about 100 km EAST of Melbourne and we've decided to put a tiny house on my property for him.
It may not be practical to keep his job living so far from town, so we are hoping that he can find employment locally. With unemployment low, there aren't too many jobs available, so he may have to apply for unemployment benefits.
It's dismaying that our children are doing less successfully than their parents. Successive governments of all stripes have failed plan for the future and provide adequate housing while promoting constant growth in population. It seems that the Capitalist paradigm has failed miserably and it's time to look at alternatives. Apart from rejigging planning and tenancy regulations, a universal income payment could be part of the solution.
Gosh that’s hard for your son. I hope he finds his feet but it also sounds like a little home on the property is a nice solution for everyone.
Gov policy definitely needs a shake up.
Baby on the way and already trying to plan for their financial future with my partner so they can get at least a partial deposit for 18/20 yrs old. Was lucky to buy with ex husband before covid, even my current one has increased by 20% in 7 months (scary). Sad reality is ours is likely the last generation that will be able to purchase without help (qld metro based answer).
OP thanks for sharing!
It looks bleak for our kids - the world is going to shits or at least that’s what they wants us to believe.
Our parents were worried about us when growing up, and they were lucky generation with free education, our grandparents thinks we are lucky. They had the simple but hard life!? - it’s all relative.
My daughter was a grown up before I was able to buy (get a sizeable mortgage) a house with my wife (she’s the breadwinner).
There will be people who are better off and there will be people who are worse off.
It’s always good to see how others do, if it motivates you to do better (again better is very relative to what!)
Be grateful, focus on your family and be kind to others.
It’s the people in your life and the experiences you make together that makes you rich.
Good luck on your next journey
Meh. None of us know what the next 20 years could bring. Other cities could bring Melbourne style land taxes and housing becomes affordable practically overnight.
Hi OP
Comparison is the thief of joy as mentioned by others.
From a realistic perspective, your sentiments are 100% on point. Future property ownership in Australia will overwhelmingly be by way of generational wealth, unfortunately.
I don't have kids but do have a property portfolio that I'll be leaving behind to charity. I have friends who are actively pursuing moving overseas for a more affordable lifestyle for themselves and their children.
I have a friend who is an only child, very single that will inherit 10mil.
She was going to donate it to sort Smith until they sold her a cat then charged her thousands to fix the problems that it had.
She has found some other furry animal somewhere overseas that she intends to save but could not recall what it is called.
Meanwhile I got the dreaded 60-day notice as the LL is selling empty and I need to find a new place for our little family including 2 children.
Such is life.
I always laugh when people say that they will go abroad and avoid the problems of Australia...
The world is at crisis and at this point you get to pick your problems depending on the country.
In my opinion Australia is the easiest country in the world.
I'll also point that not everything lasts forever, Australia will eventually build enough apartments for everyone, it wasn't that long ago we had too many apartments.
Yeah like i know im privileged to hold an Australian passport but doesn’t mean I dont want a better future for my son, like every parent wants for their children.
If your sentiment is akin to grass is always greener I can relate. But I do think better does exist for people out there and it just depends on what the definition is.
You are not the only one going through this as most migrants with English as a second language aren't getting any easy pass like others with English as their first language and from caucasian background in Australia.
However, future for your child will be different to yours as they brought up here. All you can do now is keep guiding your child to concentrate more on study and start saving yourself for your retirement.
Moving abroad only works if you are going back to the country where your parents came from as assuming you have relatives and no issues with language.
I feel like compared to others we do have it easier. I was born and raised in aus and language barriers wouldn’t exist to the country we might move too. We would miss family here but also we are a family of our own too. It’s a hard choice. Thanks for your response
If English isn't your second language and you think this way then imagine thousands of migrants like myself with average English and what we get through here..! Unemployed for 1 year almost as everywhere I go I am on the waiting list even after 20 years of industry experience in Australia!
I lived in the UK and Australia and NZ and each of them has their own problems. So don't stress too much for the child and only relocate if you are not enjoying it here or you are struggling to live here.
Housing prices in Australia are the real reason many families are in the same boat as you, so just try to focus on where your life is better currently not about where it will be good for children as you need to let him decide when he grows up where he wishes to settle!
Good luck
Everything in the universe has been in a state of change since it began .. nobody can predict what will happen tomorrow let alone 20 or 40 years from now. You can guarantee it won't be the same as now.
We’re thinking Scotland.
Son was born in the uk and we have an idea of what it entails. Free school uni healthcare and pretty safe with proximity to Europe. Lower incomes but also lower cost of living. Feel like our son could make it on his own should he wish on a normal wage.
More of a future here then anywhere else.
England Nope. USA lol fuck no.
Japan? No.
Just get your kids into a job that leads into the resources industry or offshore/maritime work and they will have loads of money.
Wealth doesn’t guarantee a happy life. True happiness comes from being grateful for what you have. This gratitude brings inner peace.
As someone who has experienced both extremes—a father who was well-off and a mother who struggled financially—I can tell you that money means nothing beyond fancy material things. It doesn't guarantee success or happiness. A child from a wealthy family isn’t assured of becoming a doctor, just as a child from poverty can rise to great success. It all depends on the parents’ intelligence and how well they navigate their own challenges.
Additionally, a child's success also depends on their ability to reflect on their parents' choices. If a child understands that their mother struggles because she lacks financial restraint, and their father is well-off because he avoids frivolous spending and makes wise investments, they will learn valuable lessons. This is especially true if the parents are aware of their own strengths and weaknesses and understand those of their partner as well.
While money might not be the most important thing, children might learn its value through the need to provide security for their future families. They can make responsible decisions if they understand that financial stability is crucial for providing for their loved ones.
If you teach your children the value of family, loved ones, and making memories with friends, and help them appreciate life's moments, money won't be as important to them.
Your children might become famous or rich, or they might simply be content and successful in their own ways. It depends on the values and tools you provide. If you call your child a failure, they may believe it and become one. But if you nurture their talents, praise them, and show emotional intelligence, they could grow up to take care of you.
Always strive to improve yourself and don't have children unless you are truly ready and can afford to raise them well. No one should consider having a child unless both partners have at least $50,000 in savings. If you can't save that amount, you might not be mature enough to be a parent. If you're not ready for kids, enjoy your own life—get a pet or travel to places like Japan. Enjoy the freedom that comes without the responsibilities of parenting.
By teaching and embodying these values, you can help your children lead fulfilled lives, regardless of their financial status.
Isn't the goal at the end to feel fulfilled with life?
Start a savings account for him, if you put say $10-$20 per week in there then by the time he’s an adult you should hopefully have enough in there to give him a good head start. It’s a normal thing in the US because of college costs but the same can be done for houses and such. Sure you might not own your own home in the next 10 years but maybe it’s one way to give him the chance
I don't see things looking too good in the future. Half the population living in 3 cities with huge immigration levels. It's ironic there's so much land in Australia, just not where people want to live
If going overseas, I recommend doing it as a secondment with your current employer.
I went overseas about 20 years ago for a few years, and on my return was unable to find a suitable role as I didn’t have recent relevant Australian experience.
I managed to snag a decent role during COVID, and have since managed to get my self promoted multiple times to reach the level that I had when working in the UK in 2009.
Having said that, living overseas was a fantastic experience. My parents did this with kids (my older siblings) and they have fantastic memories of it.
I’m very very concerned watching my 25 yold daughter and her partner trying to save (they only been together 2 years) but it’s not something i base my life on like where i live to assist them ?
they will get substantial amount definitely not huge wealth when i pass like the other 2 children (younger) to help them all.
Try not to stress too much for ur baby he’s got a whole life ahead and you never know what exciting things are yet to come .
i personally wouldn’t move overseas with a baby just so they can afford a house in 20 years? But we’re all different 👍
Also just wondering how are you finding Toowoomba area for raising a child would you recommend? Thanks
I guess the difference being that you’re daughter will likely inherit significantly from you and there is probably a 20 age difference between us. And perhaps your daughter won’t inherit from you for, hopefully, a long while yet. I’m the meantime, she’s still trying to save and have the sense of doing it herself. And you’re right it hard to see young people attempting to save.
This country has seen property ownership akin to stability and wealth so it’s not unreasonable to want that for my son, in 20 years or so (but no matter the timeline)
And it’s not just about property as it is about choice, mobility, sense of achievement etc.
Toowoomba is okay, still a small town 90 minutes out of brissy. Not my first pick but it’s lovely. No complaints.
yes your absolutely right 💯
and yes i hope it for a long time !! haha and she does have to share with 2 others 😂
i asked about toowoomba as im in brissy area and thought about downsizing there
Just unsure i can handle the cold !
It got minus 10 last year near Cabarlah. It’s a pretty area and I think well set up for this downsizing / young families. I was hesitant to move their first but it’s incredibly diverse and the gardens are all lovely.
When you find a country that you’d like to live in, that has affordable housing, is safe, where you can earn average salaries, where your son will have freedoms to one day do the same as you and your partner and where the wealth divide is not increasing, can you please do an update on Reddit and let us know so that we can all consider doing the same. I, for one, am keen to know where this country might be. Thanks.
Unfortunately it's the case the whole world over at the moment. Yes real-estate in Aust is stupid at the moment, but the living conditions are better here than anywhere I've experienced and I've done some travel.
UK is almost as bad as here in terms of jobs, homelessness, so is the states. China is imploding, Russia/Ukraine...yeah no.
Maybe a country like Indonesia or Malaysia? Possibly. I don't know anywhere that actually has good circumstances at the moment.
Hey, born and bred in Sydney I find that it is very classist especially with the East/West/North divide compare to other states like Melbourne and Queensland.
Sydney is an investors playground if you look into property buying laws in Sydney it’s quite easy to get into and less controlled than other states but the government will make immigrants a Scapegoat. You also have greedy real estate agents and developers. The laws also favour the landlord than the tenant. I chose to move interstate as I just don’t think it’s liveable, my coworker recently relocated to the Central Coast after living years in Little Bay.
Housing availability is not only limited but expensive if you compare it to other states and countries, Sydney housing is pretty crazy (saw a place in Canley Vale sell for $2million). A lot of people who bought early here had their house value double or even triple so they were really lucky to capitalise on that.
Moving abroad is a big commitment and you may have to start from scratch again. Before making that big moved I’d recommend thinking of looking out of Sydney either in the same state like the central coast or further out to different states even for the meantime. Take into consideration cost of living and job market is pretty crap everywhere like in Canada for instance.
Comparison is the thief of joy. I know It’s a really hard economic environment now but try to see the positive side of things if you can even afford your necessities to stay afloat during this time you are doing greater than most people.
I totally understand your delusion, I'm on sort of a similar situation. Next month will mark 3 years that me (34m) and my wife (31f) moved to Australia, we came here because I got a job and we are living in Sydney ever since.
I'm making close to $200k a year, which is on the higher side compared to other salaries in Australia, but man this city makes me feel poor. We are currently paying $750/w to rent a 2 bedroom apartment in an awful region of the city (Campsie), and this infuriates me. Every month 1/3 of my salary goes to pay the rent of an apartment that we hate.
If we were to move to a similar apartment in a better region it would cost us at least $900/w, but for that to happen our application has to be approved. Because we are going to inspections of apartments that cost $4k/month to rent and there are (I kid you now) almost a hundred of people on those inspections. And the fact that there are dozens of people fighting to rent an average apartment in an average suburb for this price is something that really bugs my mind.
We thought about buying a place to call ours so we could use this money to pay our mortgage instead of paying the rent, but it's impossible when you consider that a 1 bedroom apartment in a "good" suburb costs around $1 milion. Yeah we can get a place in a more far away suburb but then I would be looking at almost 2 hours of commute time to go to work (which I have to go 3x a week).
We also thought about buying an investment property anywhere in Australia, you can get a decent house for $600k if that's in Brisbane, for example, but it's hard to see ourselves paying for mortgage + rent, what you get from renting a place is not enough to pay for the mortgage, the only thing that makes this appealing is the tax refund you can get.
Having kids is totally out of question at the moment if we want to save some cash to build a property portfolio.
And right now we are facing this same question, what the future here holds to us? What's the point of having a high salary if cost of living eats up a good part of it? But well, we are still optimistic about the future.
We are migrants, but we hate Australia's migration policy. There are just too many people moving to Australia since the lockdown has ended, Sydney is being flooded by new migrants. Because of that this city became so expensive that a huge part of those people are now going to regional cities, where it's cheaper and easier for you to get a permanent visa, spoiler alert, this will cause rent to soar in regional cities.
On the bright side, at least now Australia admits that there are just too many migrants and they are working to reduce those numbers. They will definitely screw a lot of international students in the process, but hopefully this will bring our prices to a more reasonable number.
I honestly can't see this getting much worse, if rents keep rising in the same rate they rose in the last 2 years almost no one will be able to afford living here.
Well, this was a big vent but as I said, we are optimistic, both me and my wife are using this momentum as a leverage to grow in our jobs, that's what keep us here, situation now is not optimal but on the long term staying in Australia (and in Sydney) is part of our strategy.
We hope for a reduction on prices and interest rates, so we can start building our property portfolio and this will get us in a more comfortable spot.
OP, I would suggest for you to think about how much you believe you can grow in Australia, what is your long term goal? Can you see yourself in a better position in the future if you stay here?
Me and my wife we have a good reserve of money in our home country, we could just leave everything, go back, use that money to buy a penthouse in a very good location and live comfortably, but that's not what we want, we believe we can achieve much more if we stay here and battle through this.
Interesting reading. Highlights the problem of scarcity though and upward pressure on prices.
You immigrated but want to reduce immigration, you recognise the inflated cost of property, but your goal is a property portfolio, and you want to live close to the city but note that rents are sky high as there are a 100 people at every open.
That's the challenge. Everything you want is finite and everyone else wants the same thing
You know that phrase “don’t hate the player, hate the game”. Btw, I’m not agains immigration but I’m agains immigrants arriving with a student visa with the goal of not learning but working and making money.
Thanks for sharing. It’s super hard to know what the right path is..
We feel like we can grow our salaries a bit more here and potentially invest in another property if we really pushed it, but that also comes at cost of more stress and also our family being apart. For example, my partner is currently in the USA working for a short time to earn a bit more and for career progress. So even if our salaries increase, as does our niches and inversely creating fewer places to grow and work so to speak.
Australia is a beautiful country and I’m grateful to have this choice but we can’t help but feel stagnant. Work harder = get less.
Properties in my home town on the central coast are so beyond what the average salary can afford and whilst always considered low socioec, there was hope here when I grew up. That hope seems to be fading, quickly and people seem despondent.
I get you, and feel that the fact of your partner being overseas and you having a small child to raise makes things extra complicated.
I’m definitely not the best person to help as I’m also struggling to get my life and goals on track, but based on what I went through and what I learned, I would say that you shouldn’t be asking yourself what is the right path, but rather ask yourself where you want to be in 5 year, 10 years, 15 years… It’s much easier to find the path when you know the destination.
Sometimes we are led to believe that we should all be successful people with a large property portfolio and a generous bank account, but that’s not true for everyone. For some of us happiness is a happy family, and some of us don’t actually care about wealth, they are just led to believe that that’s what they should be seeking.
Like yeah, Australia is a beautiful country, good quality of life and all of that, but for some people true happiness is being close to family, wherever that is.
So my advice is, don’t follow other people’s dreams, find your own dreams and the path will form in front of you.
Thanks for your reply, so nice.
So many forms of wealth beyond property ownership/investment. A stable roof where we can be together, reduce our work stressors (if possible) and be together as a family is our idea of wealth.
You earn $2600 per week. More than three times someone on the minimum wage. And that's without even accounting for the income that your wife (presumably) adds. Lovingly, you need a reality check. $1000 per week is extremely affordable for you, so start applying for those rentals if you want to live in a better area. Your salary alone would make you a very desirable tenant.
> Having kids is totally out of question at the moment if we want to save some cash to build a property portfolio.
So many people have kids on far less money. If you want kids, your income is not an excuse.
> We hope for a reduction on prices and interest rates, so we can start building our property portfolio and this will get us in a more comfortable spot.
Not going to happen (prices) and not for the foreseeable future (rates). If you want to live somewhere cheaper, you will need to move out of Sydney. Otherwise, work with what you have. You have so many options compared to the majority of Australians, who would only dream of your salary.
Well exactly, I know I’m on a good situation right now and yes, I could afford to pay a $1.000/w rent, but the real question is: do I want to work only to afford living in Sydney, or do I want to use this momentum to save some money and build something bigger?
Don’t listen to the guy above. You don’t need a reality check. $1000 a week is not ‘extremely affordable’ because you earn 2600 take home a week. Will you have more money left over than someone on the median? Yes of course. But you are absolutely correct to question whether this is a good idea. That’s almost 40% of your take home pay. That’s not to be underestimated.
You sound like you have the right idea in my view. Use the great income you have to get ahead, don’t trap yourself by accepting something excessively expensive just because you can (and others seem to think you have some bizzare obligation to).
Thanks! I strongly disagree on that opinion of "you earn more so it's ok to spend more". When I start making 300k a year I'll consider spending over $1000/w in rent, but right now I feel that $800/w is my hard limit for a good place to live in Sydney, which is already A LOT of money, but that's the current situation here.
It will turn around at some point.
I'm 30, wife 28, we have 6 kids under 6 and I thought the same thing.. how do we set them up for a healthy future?
With no hand outs from family ( aside from a drinking habit at a young age that I kicked when I met my wife).
We worked hard early, when wife was pregnant with baby number 1 I knew we had to buy a place. Worked my ass off on apprentice wages to buy a fixer upper 40ks outside of a regional hub in Victoria. (Shepparton). Turned it around and sold it for a block in town. We are currently about to finish renovations on the mother in laws house ( trading rennos for rent ) (deffs would have been better off renting!!). The town has really kicked off and we are expecting to make a great return on our block when this financial crisis turns around. From there we are looking at building the 'family' home on a larger block on the outskirts where we can provide stability for the kids, with the ability to draw on that mortgage as it's value goes up, making sure our kids get every opportunity they can get. Not so we can shower them with shit and they won't learn the value of work or money... but to give them the best chance at making their own way. When every one moves out we can sell our bug family home and divvy up the money to the kids for them to put towards there own families to hopefully repeat the cycle.
I'm worried exactly about the same thing. Wife and I are doing "ok" I guess by general standards (migrants, came here 20 years ago with very little), but will have no generational wealth from our families passing down to us. 2 kids (one teen, one close to), and I can see their future will be very hard. Ideally, I'd like to gift them a 1 bedder each, but that's highly unlikely to happen However, I always have to remind myself that you can't plan THAT much ahead and that life has a way of shaking things up in a manner that's unpredictable. I dont think the situation is much better elsewhere, so for the time being I'll try to build as much wealth as I can, while I try to prep my kids to be flexible and adaptable. Future will tell
Completely the same as op and yourself although im single and the cost of housing if you haven't got ridiculous income 200k or generational wealth transfer, in Sydney, is prohibitive and turns life into a grind. I dont even have a house, i have a simple 2br apartment purchased in 2020 that I love but after interest rate rises; mortgage + strata I simply cant afford it (being realistic). Im seriously looking at euro and even Manchester for example where I can get a similar 2br unit for equivalent 450AUD have a small to NIL mortgage and live a much better life with disposable income earning practically half as much (55% after tax on mortgage now thanks to interest rates, 60% incl strata). Im really over it tbh as are a number of my friends all late 30s / early 40s single, decent incomes but not 200k for example which seems to be what u need round here these days unless youre scoring money from the gramps / parents.
It’s crazy hey , you earn good money (not 200k lol same ! ) but can’t keep up with a 2 bedder unit and have enough $ to enjoy ur weekends holidays etc , why do we do this grind for if we have zero left to enjoy even the small things these days ? God i hope something changes
No strata fees in Manchester?
They do have them, they are around 700 pounds a qtr so about 1300k AUD, way less than my 2600 qtr (and my building doesn't have any luxury facilities or common areas either besides lift, foyer and bin room).
saw a story about how Manchester was broke insovent
I feel for you ! We too are considering the uk. We lived there before and are aware of the lifestyle difference. But our reasoning is similar. Hve nearly no mortgage, live a simpler and less stressful life.
I'm originally from the UK and I have never really loved Melbourne (my wife is an Aussie) as it doesn't really have the kind of stuff I find interesting and the infrastructure is absurdly bad. I love the idea of regional Vic. However, The realisation that I could pretty much buy half a house in the UK with the deposit we have saved here (which would get me about 25% of a 900k house) added to the fact that even in the middle of nowhere you are still close to somewhere of interest/utility.
I’m in the UK. It’s no different. Energy costs (power and fuel) are way higher than Australia. Food was once cheaper but is quickly overtaking Aus. Housing is expensive and wages aren’t any better. Generational wealth is bigger here, although they do have an inheritance tax. Unfortunately it’s not that hard to get around. About the only cheaper thing in the UK is booze.
Are you south east based? It makes a huge difference.
We lived in the uk a while, our son was born there. Can’t speak for London, but everywhere else, unequivocally is more affordable. Our grocery bill was half of what it was when we were there in 2021. Came back to aus and had to triple checked the bill, thought it was satire.
Yeah I totally get it. It definitely used to be way cheaper for a grocery shop. But as of the last year or so it's jumped up significantly. And that's in Yorkshire. Maybe do a faux Tesco shop online to get the latest feel for it. Median wage is also about 10k aud less per year here. I mean go for it if you actually prefer life in the UK. But I wouldn't think it worthwhile if purely for financial reasons.
It’s very common overseas to have multi generations living in the one house. It will be common here as well. I would plan for your kids to be living with you into old age and pass the house onto them. If you like your children, then it ain’t that bad.
That’s true and I like the idea multigenerational homes and personally i never want to be far from my child, but I’m not sure that’s what he will want 😂
I also cannot think of anything worse than living with my parents again
Why will their future be hard? Do an apprenticeship and work in the mines. Australia is full of opportunities, it really is.
Im not sure if mines is the answer for us. And you know, climate change.
First world problems...
Move from the east coast to Adelaide, Perth, or a regional area. Adelaide property prices are still high, but like-for-like is around a third to half of Sydney's prices. I live right on the beach in Adelaide, and I would only dream of the same if I lived in Sydney. The downside is that the jobs market is more difficult, so there are trade-offs, but that will be the same wherever you go. What country do you think offers the same stability, safety, climate, opportunities, and lifestyle of Australia, but with much cheaper property?
Not sure yet but I don’t think you can ever have a country at ticks all the boxes. We actually bought rural and spent the last 15 years living remote in the nt and studying and upskilling in our professions. Living in Adelaide on the beach sounds lovely!! There are definitely more options in the country outside of Sydney, It just seems harder and harder regardless of the location
problem is anywhere but the east coast, jobs can be quite harder to find. Sometimes impossible. With cheaper housing comes cheaper jobs.
This is a ridiculous exaggeration. Ask all the people who grew up in Perth and Adelaide. Most of them found jobs in their home city and still live there. These are cities of 1-2 million people, not small towns.
What if one doesn't need to work 🤔 where does one live, best spot on the east coast
Australia sucks for standard/cost of living. Feel like my savings are just dying here each day rather than prospering.
Because they are. With inflation our $ worth less… arghh it does suck.
Just returned from living in Canada and the cost of living is way worse there. Pay the same if not more for everything there and earn half the wage we do here for same jobs. Cost of living in Aus is definitely harder now, but I don't think it's the worst
Can confirm. Canada and Australia both sailed through the 2008 financial crisis without their housing market crashing. We all thought we were lucky. But the long term result is that our housing is now unaffordable for anyone not already in the market, which includes kids when they grow up.
The increase in real estate prices so far outstripping incomes is such a large policy fail that it will literally change the fabric of Sydney, Melbourne. Lifetime earnings of someone on median income is less than $2m today, probably closer to $1m. Out of that, they need to pay a lifetime of taxes, and living expenses. When you have a house/apartment in the $1m to $2m ballpark, you’re telling singles on median income to go get fucked unless there is family money. It’s more possible with 2 incomes, but the need to save for retirement and fund housing… you’re telling a lot of couples to fuck their hopes for progeny. Unless there is family money, borrow to the eye balls or both. That’s the math. So i don’t think your disillusionment is unreasonable. It’s actually quite rational. The intergenerational transfers will calcify the classes. Those who have rich parents will continue to be well off. Those who don’t live in subsistence. Not good for birthrates, social mobility, innovation, economic dynamism or long term social cohesion. Can politicians fix it? Unlikely because any fix requires a huge build out of housing supply and reducing the gap between real estate prices and incomes (or if your McKinsey & Co, killing off 20% of the population). But Australia decided to make housing into a speculative asset and any politician who wants to actually address the issue is effectively telling a large part of the well to do Australian society (ie real estate investors) to eat shit for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Sorry but don’t have much solutions other than not living in Sydney, Melbourne or other high cost cities.
Thank you for validating me! And good points. So bad for young people and who don’t have family wealth…
Just look to NYC as or London as examples - people thinking that there will be some great equalising moment. Those cities are outside of affordability of 90% of people.
I get your point, but, Sydney isn’t NYC or London; two of the coolest cities in the world. And those living in those cities have mobility to move to other parts of the country and buy. Australia is largely locked to the average salaried person, everywhere, bar a few remote and rural spots.
Sydney is very quickly becoming a global city.
I understand what you're saying and if you can move somewhere else, then why not, but I also think you're not giving your kids and yourself enough credit. Teach your kids critical thinking, entrepreneurship and financial literacy, love them unconditionally and they may do just fine. I came from proper poorness. I grew up surrounded by MH issues, justice system visits, power cuts and cold showers. I got educated and worked a lot, and found a great partner. Together we managed. I did have a MH breakdown eventually from working too much, but if I had had more support and no kid, I think I would have avoided the breakdown. I did/will get 0 generational wealth transfer but I'm going to be ok. TL;DR, even if you stay here, if you support your kids in all the other ways - love, education, acceptance, a roof for an extended time, you might be surprised that they will be ok.
Sounds hard for you but awesome tgst you’ve found your way. And it’s true, if we raise him in a way that he feels secure he’ll be ok. But I would like to avoid my son having a MH breakdown from working too much…
Even if they could fix it they won't coz those fucking cunts are all landlords themselves. No one will make themselves eat a shit sandwich of their own creation. Biggest conflict of interest with the 2nd largest problem of today (the first being climate change). Until pollies can't own investment properties or business, and I'm including not passing it to their partner or hiding in some bullshit trust, the divide between rich and poor will continue to expand. Wonder what will happen with childcare if potato man gets to be PM 🙄
Average income is in the $65-$85k range? Work from 18 to 58 lets say... So 40 years 40 x even $60k is still 2.4M? Note I don't think these averages are used this way, it isn't an average income over the working life, but an average income considering all working age people?
It’s actually crazy how the country is set up. Newcomers and those without family wealth are basically guaranteed to fail while pre-2020 home/landowners will continue to get richer by doing nothing.
Nah, we bought in 2016, a 3 bed. Back then, the hope was that we would start out here and upsize when the time was right. We have 4 kids and we can't move anywhere. We are also feeling that our kids won't have much hope to get housing, so are looking at what we can do so we can all stay here together in our little box. No way we are moving, I've had 8 years off work (not for lack of trying to go back to work) raising higher needs kids, and when I return to work (next year hopefully 🤞) Our dual income still won't cut it, as I won't be able to earn much more than 50k full time and re-entering the workforce. Unless wages rise dramatically, and house prices stagnate, we're stuck... but the most ridiculous part of this, is that we are lucky we have even got a house and are able to service (with difficulty) the mortgage, when that was feasible for most at the time that we bought.
I believe in what the OP is worried about but in reality, it is hard to emigrate to a country with similar standards BUT with more realistic housing... sure you see a lot of people here who have German or Irish or whatever background and they can move but... I mean its not super viable for many without those connections. The way I look at it is that if you are two professional people then you can get into a $500k unit and then have ONE kid. That's it. That's the best that many in other countries can hope for. I feel like house ownership is largely done in urban centers here. I also feel things will likely get worse on the same trend or it will get a LOT worse due to big time economic depression. A great indictator about how our leaders treat us is that there's now 5yr free visa rights for business clients in China. I mean... thanks? That does us a HEAP of good :-/ There's no upside.
Problem is all the cities are high cost now. Adelaide price rises are insane right now.
If you move OS, you may need to come to grips with the fact that you or your children may never be able to afford to return to Australia. I knew a couple that moved to SE Asia and are leading a comfortable life, but now they can barely afford to return to Australia for a holiday, and their chances of ever returning to live are pretty much zero.
That’s a good point and that must be hard for the couple you know. If we go, we plan on having enough to be able to return.. though hard to know how much is enough.
Agreed with this. I have family who have moved to East Timor are are actually living a great life there but good luck moving back
If you have any way to live overseas, it's not a bad plan. We taught our daughter our native language, and we have real estate there, if one day she decides to live there, it's all set.
I love that for you and your daughter. Choice is freedom.
Yeah, of course we live in Australia and our life is here. But our entire family lives there, who knows, maybe she will decide to have an adventure. :) Compared to Australia, the apartment we got there was 10% of an Australia property in the same conditions.
The cost of living increases are making everything feel much worse at the moment. It's 15yrs before your child will be venturing out on their own, a lot could change in that time. Also stop comparing your life to others, comparison is the death of joy
I felt the same 15 years ago its only gotten worse this person is smart to look elsewhere. I wish we had.
It will be worse in 15 years not better. We are basically at a point where it’s almost cruel to bring kids into this world unless you plan to set them up with a place to live in adulthood.
Lol. I'm pretty sure the only ideology Australians will vote for is neoliberalism. Or did you think the politicians' billionaire owners will stop asking for more?
Attitudes change, and already are. Talk to anyone under age 30 without family money and there is no respect for neoliberalism. Imagine another decade of this housing situation getting worse and worse, we're going to end up with a significant portion of the electorate absolutely fuming and ready for a change. Not optimistic that it's going to be perfect in the future. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. But our attitudes will definitely change as a country in reaction to the lived experience of the electorate. This happens everywhere, Australia is no exception.
Yep. This is how you get inheritance taxes, land taxes, gift taxes and trust taxes. Get enough of the population not feeling the benefits and the knives come out.
When current taxes aren’t being used to build affordable housing, more taxes just feed a gov that wasn’t governing properly. It is the essence of rewarding bad governance.
And even in 15 years, it’s not like you just kick them out the door to land on their ass. You will be able to support them and guide them in the right direction. Build them up to be able to go out and chase their dreams, they’ll have a headstart on a lot of people just by having supportive parents.
I agree. I guess I don’t see it improving here is all…
Consecutive gov policies has made it near impossible to thrive. Will take decades to turn it around
It’s been rough for many and REALLY good for others
I wouldn't trade my life for my boomer parents' lives. They're at the end of their working careers and have worked very hard to get where they are and although they're well off now, they deserve it.
My parents are well off but they really haven’t worked that hard, financially most of their 20s were a write off paid off house from a single income in their 30s, paid off beach house in their 40s etc. Not saying that they are slackers but my wife and I have worked far harder/smarter and are going to struggle to build as much wealth as a bikie with a passion for LSD and a idealistic hippy have managed to accumulate.
Haha so true
But so does everyone else?
*comparison is the thief of all joy … sorry to correct you, but its my favourite saying ;)
Oh yeah in 15 years global warming will be dandy and we will all live happily ever after.
For what it’s worth I live in a European country atm and I’m slowly realising it doesn’t make sense to return home. There is no political will in Australia to make life better for people. The only political will is to consolidate power and wealth. It’s a weird feeling.
If your home country is no longer offering a better life it makes sense to stay
It’s not my first time living abroad, but it’s my first time feeling like the long term plan might not be to go home.
I have worked since 15 years old and am a teacher. Two children under three years old, husband is a sparky. I totally feel and get everything you are saying. My husband comes from Scotland and we just feel like we are constantly struggling and sacrificing to keep our head above water. In Scotland we have cheaper housing, heaps of friends that are tradies that would help with free labour and lots of family support. Here we are getting ahead because my husband works overtime and we are currently living with my grandparents so we can save 90% of our wages so we can afford a shitty, average home in Brissie. I think you have to do what’s best for you and your family. But know you’re not alone in being fed up and disheartened.
Thanks for your reply and thanks for getting it. It’s so hard for young families who have tried to do everything right. We are considering moving to Scotland. Any downsides ?
Weather
For sure!! Haha
Gosh if you think Australian is bad the U.K. is a bin fire right now (and I say this as someone who loves the U.K. ans goes there twice yearly for work). 14 years of austerity have ruined the U.K. They’ve just done a study showing that people in Glasgow’s lifespans are going down. The NHS is in the toilet. Sewerage is literally being pumped into waterways. Trash everywhere because councils are going broke - Birmingham city is bankrupt. The cost of fuel and transport in the U.K. is insane. Groceries aren’t much better these days nor is housing. Wages are crap and the economy is closer to a recession than ours is. I see a lot of people complaining about Australia on Reddit but most of the western world is going through the same issues if not worse than we are. OP the grass is not always greener. Most of my U.K. friends are contemplating moving to Australia.
The future is apartments. Less maintenance too. If it's near a park and amenities then to me that is better than a qtr acre to maintain.
To me it really feels like strata fees are a significant pain even right now, let alone the astronomical rises that will be needed to fix structural issues from rushed and dodgy builds in the not too distant future.
Sometimes I look at open apartments (not looking to buy, just if I walk past one), and the strata fees are borderline rent level.
They do cover the house insurance, and you could say the same thing about houses.
If the apartment is well built and designed. Most in Australia aren’t
Yep, no future in this country without family money Or crime Or NDIS rorts Just don't think your wages can ever compete at auction with someone else's recent capital gains
I agree
I feel the same way. I am assured though that my property will go to my children, as long as I don’t spend it. Until I go they will live with me if they can’t afford to be independent. After that they can sell to buy somewhere they want to live. I don’t think migrating is the solution, unless you already have zero family members. As a child of migrants I am desperate for other family who are so far away. You might not feel you need them but there are moments in life when you do (as long as they aren’t terrible) Even now my aging parents live a long way away from me (their choice) and now I’m a bit screwed trying to look after the them and my own children. You can’t do everything online / by phone.
I recently moved to Sydney from Adelaide due to work. Property in Sydney is insane. However I’d consider other states before moving abroad. SA is very affordable. I bought a house on a modest income. I’d move back without hesitation.
That’s cool to know. I guess I feel like if we lived somewhere other than the east coast we may as well be in a different country lol becuase it’s so far from family anyways. Adelaide is really lovely!!
Far from family but culturally very similar. Have you lived overseas before? It can be very isolating.
Yes we’re lived abroad our son was born in the uk, we’re well travelled and have lived across aus too. The isolation is a good point.
Toowoomba has houses starting at 400k. Units starting at 240k or so. Australia is a pretty good place to live I am not sure you will find better overseas.
Not for much longer I live here ( have my whole life) and have watched property jump out of alot of people's reach very quickly because of the "Adelaide's cheap" mentality....
What you describe happens everywhere. Capital accretes under capitalism.
It does happen everywhere.. it’s just knowing if it’s accelerated beyond return for the future gen in aus.
It's no better than other similar first world countries. Look at Canada, NZ, etc, similar challenges for their future generations. Where would you go?
We’re thinking Scotland. We know salaries are less, but so is cost of living and housing. School, uni and healthcare free. No perfect of course, but safe enough and easy access to Europe. Totally agree, same in nz and Canada. Partners family moved from nz to aus and the family over there is also just getting by. *and we’ve lived in the uk before, our son was born there. So have an idea of the realities and tgr balance of things.
Might be a good idea. Should ask Scottish immigrants coming here why they left, as a litmus test.
I should!! My next reddit post perhaps. Maybe the shitty weather lol
I’m leaving Scotland to come to Australia permanently in a few months. Let me know if you want any specifics but some of the reasons we are leaving, litter everywhere, cold dark winters that last 7 months, austerity means that public services are on the brink of collapse, NHS at breaking point, salaries are low compared to rest of uk and rest of Europe, cost of fuel is high, cost of food is high, cost of gas/electric one of the highest in the world, public transport is expensive, property market is cooked, anything good sells instantly, rent prices are just as brutal as Australia in comparison to salary if you want to live a commutable distance from work. If you are coming here on what is the average salary you can expect all of the above, if you are already rich you can probably live a good life if you can tolerate the societal failures around you and dark winters. University is only free in Scotland if you are Scottish or have been schooled here for a certain amount of time, English pay full price and international fees are very high. The good things are the scenery, the people, cheap flights to Europe.
We’ve moved from the uk to Australia because we felt the same way about life over there! Since the uk left the EU the cost of living has gone crazy. I would love to live somewhere else in Europe but career progression is limited. (I used to work in Spain) So it’s always going to be a trade off unfortunately.
Just leave Sydney.
Living abroad isn't all it's cracked up to be. Most Western countries are suffering the same cost of living issues as Australia. The cheap countries on the other hand pay terribly low wages, so are only cheap compared to an Australian salary. I moved overseas a couple years ago, and moving back to Australia if I have kids is an serious discussion I've had. Australia still offers well paying jobs and opportunities as well as a high standard of living comparatively. Plenty of young graduates getting good jobs that after a few years of work will pay close to the average salary (in Melbourne at least) and there are still plenty of free standing houses within 1hr drive or train ride of the city for 500-600k. If you want another perspective, look at New Zealand. Their net migration numbers are terrible, with almost half leaving are coming to Australia. Due to higher paying jobs here and better standard of living.
Yes true all western and non western countries having issues. Partner migrated from nz, said he wouldn’t really consider going back. So yes, kiwis are elusive nz for better work opportunity here.
Yeah most of the commenters have never lived overseas lol
Man, the childcare years are tough… we were paying more on daycare than our mortgage for a while there. It’s hard to see the future. Our kids are now in primary school and the childcare has come down. We are also now a decade into ownership, and we can see our equity in the home on paper, and our mortgage payments are, well, based on our 13 year old mortgage which has lower rates and a lower purchase price. Time moves like that. It’s a hard slog now, but as prices grow around you, your capital and income both grow too. You won’t always be doing this hard of a slog, in time it gets easier and you get glimpses of light. But if you are up for the adventure - what a gift to give your kid! Trust your heart!
That’s nice, thank u
You should stop comparing your life with others. But I wouldn't move abroad just because of that reason. There are so many other perks that Australia has to offer. You could save as much money you want for your child but doesn't mean they will also use it properly too. So why not live somewhere that you want and provide the best environment for your child.
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I was recently in Zurich for work and pretty much all of the people I met lived in (admittedly solid, well built) apartments with access to a lifestyle that would be enviable to most. Yet for some reasons Aussies cling onto this “dream” of vacuous, overpriced, cheaply built houses in the middle of nowhere with long commutes and a soulless, depressing existence. I’m generalizing of course, but speaking to colleagues here, that is exactly what their life is like.
Because suburbia necessitate vacuous houses to justify its existence. No one cares in Geneva (or Paris or whatever other big city you want to name) because the trade off is they get to live in a dynamic and bustling city. You’re not going to convince someone to aspire to live in an apartment in Blacktown and pay half a million for the privilege
lol i stopped reading on the 1st sentence like $500k for a 1 bedder??? in bris. you cannot make a life here. if you're doing the minimum ie. a couple and kid this isnt going to work out further australians seem to HATE the unit life and i get it units are largely shit unless you buy from 50yrs ago and stratas suck but hey its better than renting, hawk tuah!
Yeah I guess I never expected him to one day buy a 3+1, but even for him to take out a 475k mortgage he’d still need a very tidy salary or a partner. And that 500k In 15 years might be closer to 700k? I like your point though and keeping things in perspective is important.
teach them to save early. Anyone getting started early will be fine. Sit them down with a compound interest calculator and show them what 50/100/200 ect. bucks a week does over a 40 year life time of investing with average market returns does for your life. better yet. Start doing that for them now no matter how small the amount is
This is it. People need to start saving for a property deposit well before they have kids.
I think this is the major issue, its not that the housing prices are impossible, what people are actually saying is that 'getting exactly what I want is impossible' That's really the truth to a lot of peoples scenarios, obviously some have it harder than other. But this mentality doesn't help. If you are willing to live an hour from melbourne there are tons of affordable options, certainly full houses for under 600k. But the truth is, people want to live in the prime spots that everyone wants to live, and they want to do so only a 600k budget. Its not realistic.
This is certainly true but not everyone can wfh now so it's not really a choice. Either move away and earn less or stay and spend more kind of makes it a wash.
or commute, I know people that commute an hour each way in the morning and night. Its not ideal, but it allows them to have the lifestyle they want outside of work hours as they don't have the same monetary constraints that paying a million dollar mortgage create. Let look at Packenham in Victoria's east, or whittlesea in the north. Packenham is an hour drive, or 1:11 on the train. There are tons of houses around the 600k price point. Whittlesea also has plenty of housing around 600k and is also an hour drive or an 1:20 on the train.
Geelong? Nicer train
Exactly
Direct train maybe but fuck wasting my life driving two hours plus a day. At least on the train to can do life admin if it's not too crowded.
That's fine, but that removes the ability for you to genuinely complain about the cost of housing. Which is where this entire conversation stems from. As my original statement said, its not that the housing cost is not doable, its just not doable when people are willing to sacrifice nothing. Lets say you don't want an hour drive. Ok, get a 2 bedroom apartment 25 minutes east of Melbourne CBD, you are still under 600k. But we are back at the same problem, people want 4 bedroom, backyard, large block, 30 minutes from the city, near transport, near shopping, but also only to pay 750k
While these 1 bedders sound ok. When it comes time to sell the person will have a very hard time making money. They might break even or barely make a small profit. Not a smart move IMO. Best thing they could do is pay down the loan hard and fast and then use the extra from selling to upgrade.
lol so is the problem that Australia’s housing is overpriced? Or just that it was overpriced before I was able to buy? If we’re complaining about diminishing opportunities for future generations then why are we demanding capital appreciation on more housing?
Exactly. Fuck these greedy people speculating on property - as long as I get to buy low and sell high. 😄 The irony of the above poster’s comment has completely passed them by. 🤦♂️
It’s more you’re not left with a debt to the bank after you sell. Breaking even is fine. Losing money is not.
I would love for prices to stop growing or go backwards so the future generations have a chance and we live in a more equal society.
I can’t help you with this but I read so many posts and comments on Reddit and it feels like some level of financial dysmorphia.
In what way is this financial dysmorphia when OP is more so concerned about their child's future? We don't actually know OPs position. Unless OP has 1m+ stashed away as a deposit for their kid in say 15-20 years time, their concerns are very much valid. I emplore you to consider where the median Sydney house price will be at that time.
Just buy in western Sydney
Thank you 🙏🏽 and definitely don’t have 1 mil stashed away… I wish.
Financial dysmorphia?? I’ve never heard of this term before. Interesting..
https://www.thegoodtrade.com/features/money-dysmorphia/#:~:text=their%20financial%20distress.%E2%80%9D-,%E2%80%9CMoney%20dysmorphia%20is%20the%20distance%20between%20a%20person's%20perceived%20financial,ers%20suffer%20from%20money%20dysmorphia.
Okay I don’t think I have that… This is more concern over my sons future. And I think many young people feel right to feel behind and upset especially seeing our parents generation do comparatively far better at similar life stages and be the beneficiaries of the aus property market. Of course, I know many that haven’t done well.
Yeah. You don't. It's just another version of "have you tried getting a better job?"
Fucking hell. I'd rather get a bigger body than this stupid affluenza approach to life. At least I'll be looking after myself not just flaunt it for everyone to see and keep up with the Joneses...
Could be worse mate, dont look at what others have and look at what you do have.
Um no
If you retire overseas and leave the house for the kids then it would be possible.
I mean given the amount of imagination coming into Australia, I'll go out on a limb and say life maybe not as great as it sounds.
LNP lower immigration
Realistically, for my family and I’m sure many others, my kid will inherit our house and we will have another property (think an apartment) for them. So I don’t get generational wealth but will make sure my kid will benefit from it.
And likely our son will too. But then I feel kinda like I might be holding him back in a way because he’ll feel tied to us for a house.. I think like most young people still want to try to do it by themselves for their own dignity. I dunno, maybe I’m seeing it wrong.
That will also depend on how you bring up your kid and what value they put on material wealth. I think good parents strike a balance between giving their kids enough safety net through generational wealth whilst giving them room to strive for more. Perhaps this is what you mean by “still want to try to do it by themselves”?
Your big issues with moving overseas are: - Residency / work visas - Healthcare It’s all well and good to go move to a low cost of living country, but all countries prioritise their own Citizens, and foreigners need to provide for their own retirement planning, healthcare etc and you’re subject to approval for Visas to live and work there. At least as Australian Citizens you would have access to the pension + Medicare. Perhaps consider moving to a regional area, rather than Sydney, for opportunities for cheaper housing.
So true, aus has some good benefits. We would qualify for work visas and looking to a country with free healthcare, or low cost. We’re planning for our retirement and we don’t want to rely on an old age pension (many elderly people don’t seem to have a great quality of life tbh and with the way things are going, it’s not a guarantee for our generation. And free healthcare in aus is a bit tricky, we pay our taxes to cover Medicare (quite a lot too) and often there is still significant out of pocket expenses. Sadly few places bulk bill anymore.
Also to consider is education for your kids in another country. What is the quality of local education system? Are foreign children entitled to attend local schools? Do you have to pay for private education? University: attending an overseas university your kids would be liable for international rates. Going to an Aussie Uni gives them access to subsidised University fees + HECS / HELP loans. If you’ve managed to buy a place in Oz already, planning for retirement etc you’re already ahead. Focus on building wealth and you will certainly have something to pass onto your children, and hopefully able to give them a leg up for their future (and that could be as simple as letting them live rent free while saving a deposit). If your kids are young now, the housing market is going to be completely different in 30-40 years time.
Yes true. Excellent schools in tgr uk, equivalent to aus. Free uni in Scotland. And many countries in Europe
There is zero future for people that want to work 36 to 38 hours and expect the lifestyle and opportunities of their previous generations. Those days have come and gone I think it's time we accept it as a society. Well u don't have to accept it... u can cry kicking and screaming at a forum to vent your frustration as a keyboard warrior. Then go back to slaving away nothing will change. Way I see it we are on the edge... the next few elections will basically decide the shite hole we dug ourselves and the decades of shite we have to look forward to mark my words... Me I won't be moving to another country already established here. Australia is a pretty cool place to live when you are debt free or someone is paying your bills net positive.
The thing is moving abroad....depends where...how about your visas? Language? Health care? The added challenges and stress? Having been also with migrant parents I have seen how much they have sacrificed, how they had to start from the bottom and also how visas can be particularity challenging and set you back by years. Having gone through my own visas as well and working with my husband for his...it is a lengthly and time consuming process. Husband isn't Australian, however it would also be lengthy process if I moved to his country. I have lived in a few countries, and traveled quite a bit 23+ countries for my age (definitely not as many as avid travelers though) and I still think Australia is pretty good. I don't think the grass is all that greener particularly when it comes to visas. I think just do the best you can for your kid. Provide them with love, care, enough skills to do well on their own, and do your best to let them try out things they show interest in. Show them a good example of what a healthy relationship is with you and your wife through happy and challenging times. While I would also love to get some free money or a free house from my parents...it's just something they can't do and I am not entitled to it. No worries though, husband and I also found our ways (still finding actually). To be honest, one thing I would recommend it isn't a house or money; I wish my parents let me try extracurricular activities / experiences I was interested in. However it wasn't something that was their focus or they had the budget for. Also it is a bit of more of a challenge if you are the second generation immigrants (your parents are the first ones who moved). I think as each generation goes on from the original first generation migrant, it may be slightly easier (financially). Still definitely dependant on a lot of factors though but just from observations of people I know. Also sometimes being too materialistic can't be too good, or always *only* thinking about the future. Having been an accident where I was *ready* to die and having family in accidents I realised is that - you can't take money to your grave.
Where would you move overseas and buy a “house”? Most cities like sydney your kids would be buying a flat, maybe a flat the size of an Australian lounge room. If you are going to live in a minuscule place in Londom or NYC or Singapore just buy a small old flat in Sydney and you’ll quite possibly have a better quality of life.
I am a 75 year old widow and have a son (55) who rents a flat in inner Melbourne. He is about to be homeless as the owner wants to renovate. He hasn't been able to find a suitable, affordable place to live. Fortunately, I live on 5 acres about 100 km EAST of Melbourne and we've decided to put a tiny house on my property for him. It may not be practical to keep his job living so far from town, so we are hoping that he can find employment locally. With unemployment low, there aren't too many jobs available, so he may have to apply for unemployment benefits. It's dismaying that our children are doing less successfully than their parents. Successive governments of all stripes have failed plan for the future and provide adequate housing while promoting constant growth in population. It seems that the Capitalist paradigm has failed miserably and it's time to look at alternatives. Apart from rejigging planning and tenancy regulations, a universal income payment could be part of the solution.
Gosh that’s hard for your son. I hope he finds his feet but it also sounds like a little home on the property is a nice solution for everyone. Gov policy definitely needs a shake up.
Thanks. I'm hoping it works out for him.
Baby on the way and already trying to plan for their financial future with my partner so they can get at least a partial deposit for 18/20 yrs old. Was lucky to buy with ex husband before covid, even my current one has increased by 20% in 7 months (scary). Sad reality is ours is likely the last generation that will be able to purchase without help (qld metro based answer).
OP thanks for sharing! It looks bleak for our kids - the world is going to shits or at least that’s what they wants us to believe. Our parents were worried about us when growing up, and they were lucky generation with free education, our grandparents thinks we are lucky. They had the simple but hard life!? - it’s all relative. My daughter was a grown up before I was able to buy (get a sizeable mortgage) a house with my wife (she’s the breadwinner). There will be people who are better off and there will be people who are worse off. It’s always good to see how others do, if it motivates you to do better (again better is very relative to what!) Be grateful, focus on your family and be kind to others. It’s the people in your life and the experiences you make together that makes you rich. Good luck on your next journey
Meh. None of us know what the next 20 years could bring. Other cities could bring Melbourne style land taxes and housing becomes affordable practically overnight.
Hi OP Comparison is the thief of joy as mentioned by others. From a realistic perspective, your sentiments are 100% on point. Future property ownership in Australia will overwhelmingly be by way of generational wealth, unfortunately. I don't have kids but do have a property portfolio that I'll be leaving behind to charity. I have friends who are actively pursuing moving overseas for a more affordable lifestyle for themselves and their children.
So cool you’re leaving it to charity
I have a friend who is an only child, very single that will inherit 10mil. She was going to donate it to sort Smith until they sold her a cat then charged her thousands to fix the problems that it had. She has found some other furry animal somewhere overseas that she intends to save but could not recall what it is called. Meanwhile I got the dreaded 60-day notice as the LL is selling empty and I need to find a new place for our little family including 2 children. Such is life.
That’s super hard…
I always laugh when people say that they will go abroad and avoid the problems of Australia... The world is at crisis and at this point you get to pick your problems depending on the country. In my opinion Australia is the easiest country in the world. I'll also point that not everything lasts forever, Australia will eventually build enough apartments for everyone, it wasn't that long ago we had too many apartments.
Yeah like i know im privileged to hold an Australian passport but doesn’t mean I dont want a better future for my son, like every parent wants for their children.
Lol at going back to the UK - have you been there recently?
Yes
Have you? I was there a month ago and it was fantastic if a little pricey.
Everyone wants better, doesn't mean it exists.
If your sentiment is akin to grass is always greener I can relate. But I do think better does exist for people out there and it just depends on what the definition is.
What I'm saying is that its a trade and Australia is going to tick the most boxes if we take out what is important to you.
Exactly it’s just choosing the boxes right for you.
You are not the only one going through this as most migrants with English as a second language aren't getting any easy pass like others with English as their first language and from caucasian background in Australia. However, future for your child will be different to yours as they brought up here. All you can do now is keep guiding your child to concentrate more on study and start saving yourself for your retirement. Moving abroad only works if you are going back to the country where your parents came from as assuming you have relatives and no issues with language.
I feel like compared to others we do have it easier. I was born and raised in aus and language barriers wouldn’t exist to the country we might move too. We would miss family here but also we are a family of our own too. It’s a hard choice. Thanks for your response
If English isn't your second language and you think this way then imagine thousands of migrants like myself with average English and what we get through here..! Unemployed for 1 year almost as everywhere I go I am on the waiting list even after 20 years of industry experience in Australia! I lived in the UK and Australia and NZ and each of them has their own problems. So don't stress too much for the child and only relocate if you are not enjoying it here or you are struggling to live here. Housing prices in Australia are the real reason many families are in the same boat as you, so just try to focus on where your life is better currently not about where it will be good for children as you need to let him decide when he grows up where he wishes to settle! Good luck
Absolutely, significantly hard for migrants.
We have an aging population so housing might not be a problem in the future. Most of the population will be over 40 in a few years.
Everything in the universe has been in a state of change since it began .. nobody can predict what will happen tomorrow let alone 20 or 40 years from now. You can guarantee it won't be the same as now.
But we’re are going to go? Where is ‘better’?
We’re thinking Scotland. Son was born in the uk and we have an idea of what it entails. Free school uni healthcare and pretty safe with proximity to Europe. Lower incomes but also lower cost of living. Feel like our son could make it on his own should he wish on a normal wage.
More of a future here then anywhere else. England Nope. USA lol fuck no. Japan? No. Just get your kids into a job that leads into the resources industry or offshore/maritime work and they will have loads of money.
Wealth doesn’t guarantee a happy life. True happiness comes from being grateful for what you have. This gratitude brings inner peace. As someone who has experienced both extremes—a father who was well-off and a mother who struggled financially—I can tell you that money means nothing beyond fancy material things. It doesn't guarantee success or happiness. A child from a wealthy family isn’t assured of becoming a doctor, just as a child from poverty can rise to great success. It all depends on the parents’ intelligence and how well they navigate their own challenges. Additionally, a child's success also depends on their ability to reflect on their parents' choices. If a child understands that their mother struggles because she lacks financial restraint, and their father is well-off because he avoids frivolous spending and makes wise investments, they will learn valuable lessons. This is especially true if the parents are aware of their own strengths and weaknesses and understand those of their partner as well. While money might not be the most important thing, children might learn its value through the need to provide security for their future families. They can make responsible decisions if they understand that financial stability is crucial for providing for their loved ones. If you teach your children the value of family, loved ones, and making memories with friends, and help them appreciate life's moments, money won't be as important to them. Your children might become famous or rich, or they might simply be content and successful in their own ways. It depends on the values and tools you provide. If you call your child a failure, they may believe it and become one. But if you nurture their talents, praise them, and show emotional intelligence, they could grow up to take care of you. Always strive to improve yourself and don't have children unless you are truly ready and can afford to raise them well. No one should consider having a child unless both partners have at least $50,000 in savings. If you can't save that amount, you might not be mature enough to be a parent. If you're not ready for kids, enjoy your own life—get a pet or travel to places like Japan. Enjoy the freedom that comes without the responsibilities of parenting. By teaching and embodying these values, you can help your children lead fulfilled lives, regardless of their financial status. Isn't the goal at the end to feel fulfilled with life?
Start a savings account for him, if you put say $10-$20 per week in there then by the time he’s an adult you should hopefully have enough in there to give him a good head start. It’s a normal thing in the US because of college costs but the same can be done for houses and such. Sure you might not own your own home in the next 10 years but maybe it’s one way to give him the chance
I don't see things looking too good in the future. Half the population living in 3 cities with huge immigration levels. It's ironic there's so much land in Australia, just not where people want to live
If going overseas, I recommend doing it as a secondment with your current employer. I went overseas about 20 years ago for a few years, and on my return was unable to find a suitable role as I didn’t have recent relevant Australian experience. I managed to snag a decent role during COVID, and have since managed to get my self promoted multiple times to reach the level that I had when working in the UK in 2009. Having said that, living overseas was a fantastic experience. My parents did this with kids (my older siblings) and they have fantastic memories of it.
I’m very very concerned watching my 25 yold daughter and her partner trying to save (they only been together 2 years) but it’s not something i base my life on like where i live to assist them ? they will get substantial amount definitely not huge wealth when i pass like the other 2 children (younger) to help them all. Try not to stress too much for ur baby he’s got a whole life ahead and you never know what exciting things are yet to come . i personally wouldn’t move overseas with a baby just so they can afford a house in 20 years? But we’re all different 👍 Also just wondering how are you finding Toowoomba area for raising a child would you recommend? Thanks
I guess the difference being that you’re daughter will likely inherit significantly from you and there is probably a 20 age difference between us. And perhaps your daughter won’t inherit from you for, hopefully, a long while yet. I’m the meantime, she’s still trying to save and have the sense of doing it herself. And you’re right it hard to see young people attempting to save. This country has seen property ownership akin to stability and wealth so it’s not unreasonable to want that for my son, in 20 years or so (but no matter the timeline) And it’s not just about property as it is about choice, mobility, sense of achievement etc. Toowoomba is okay, still a small town 90 minutes out of brissy. Not my first pick but it’s lovely. No complaints.
yes your absolutely right 💯 and yes i hope it for a long time !! haha and she does have to share with 2 others 😂 i asked about toowoomba as im in brissy area and thought about downsizing there Just unsure i can handle the cold !
It got minus 10 last year near Cabarlah. It’s a pretty area and I think well set up for this downsizing / young families. I was hesitant to move their first but it’s incredibly diverse and the gardens are all lovely.
I donno. I’m living in the US and moving back.
When you find a country that you’d like to live in, that has affordable housing, is safe, where you can earn average salaries, where your son will have freedoms to one day do the same as you and your partner and where the wealth divide is not increasing, can you please do an update on Reddit and let us know so that we can all consider doing the same. I, for one, am keen to know where this country might be. Thanks.
He and his partner will need very decent high income jobs or for his parents to die before he’s 30.
Unfortunately it's the case the whole world over at the moment. Yes real-estate in Aust is stupid at the moment, but the living conditions are better here than anywhere I've experienced and I've done some travel. UK is almost as bad as here in terms of jobs, homelessness, so is the states. China is imploding, Russia/Ukraine...yeah no. Maybe a country like Indonesia or Malaysia? Possibly. I don't know anywhere that actually has good circumstances at the moment.
Hey, born and bred in Sydney I find that it is very classist especially with the East/West/North divide compare to other states like Melbourne and Queensland. Sydney is an investors playground if you look into property buying laws in Sydney it’s quite easy to get into and less controlled than other states but the government will make immigrants a Scapegoat. You also have greedy real estate agents and developers. The laws also favour the landlord than the tenant. I chose to move interstate as I just don’t think it’s liveable, my coworker recently relocated to the Central Coast after living years in Little Bay. Housing availability is not only limited but expensive if you compare it to other states and countries, Sydney housing is pretty crazy (saw a place in Canley Vale sell for $2million). A lot of people who bought early here had their house value double or even triple so they were really lucky to capitalise on that. Moving abroad is a big commitment and you may have to start from scratch again. Before making that big moved I’d recommend thinking of looking out of Sydney either in the same state like the central coast or further out to different states even for the meantime. Take into consideration cost of living and job market is pretty crap everywhere like in Canada for instance. Comparison is the thief of joy. I know It’s a really hard economic environment now but try to see the positive side of things if you can even afford your necessities to stay afloat during this time you are doing greater than most people.
I totally understand your delusion, I'm on sort of a similar situation. Next month will mark 3 years that me (34m) and my wife (31f) moved to Australia, we came here because I got a job and we are living in Sydney ever since. I'm making close to $200k a year, which is on the higher side compared to other salaries in Australia, but man this city makes me feel poor. We are currently paying $750/w to rent a 2 bedroom apartment in an awful region of the city (Campsie), and this infuriates me. Every month 1/3 of my salary goes to pay the rent of an apartment that we hate. If we were to move to a similar apartment in a better region it would cost us at least $900/w, but for that to happen our application has to be approved. Because we are going to inspections of apartments that cost $4k/month to rent and there are (I kid you now) almost a hundred of people on those inspections. And the fact that there are dozens of people fighting to rent an average apartment in an average suburb for this price is something that really bugs my mind. We thought about buying a place to call ours so we could use this money to pay our mortgage instead of paying the rent, but it's impossible when you consider that a 1 bedroom apartment in a "good" suburb costs around $1 milion. Yeah we can get a place in a more far away suburb but then I would be looking at almost 2 hours of commute time to go to work (which I have to go 3x a week). We also thought about buying an investment property anywhere in Australia, you can get a decent house for $600k if that's in Brisbane, for example, but it's hard to see ourselves paying for mortgage + rent, what you get from renting a place is not enough to pay for the mortgage, the only thing that makes this appealing is the tax refund you can get. Having kids is totally out of question at the moment if we want to save some cash to build a property portfolio. And right now we are facing this same question, what the future here holds to us? What's the point of having a high salary if cost of living eats up a good part of it? But well, we are still optimistic about the future. We are migrants, but we hate Australia's migration policy. There are just too many people moving to Australia since the lockdown has ended, Sydney is being flooded by new migrants. Because of that this city became so expensive that a huge part of those people are now going to regional cities, where it's cheaper and easier for you to get a permanent visa, spoiler alert, this will cause rent to soar in regional cities. On the bright side, at least now Australia admits that there are just too many migrants and they are working to reduce those numbers. They will definitely screw a lot of international students in the process, but hopefully this will bring our prices to a more reasonable number. I honestly can't see this getting much worse, if rents keep rising in the same rate they rose in the last 2 years almost no one will be able to afford living here. Well, this was a big vent but as I said, we are optimistic, both me and my wife are using this momentum as a leverage to grow in our jobs, that's what keep us here, situation now is not optimal but on the long term staying in Australia (and in Sydney) is part of our strategy. We hope for a reduction on prices and interest rates, so we can start building our property portfolio and this will get us in a more comfortable spot. OP, I would suggest for you to think about how much you believe you can grow in Australia, what is your long term goal? Can you see yourself in a better position in the future if you stay here? Me and my wife we have a good reserve of money in our home country, we could just leave everything, go back, use that money to buy a penthouse in a very good location and live comfortably, but that's not what we want, we believe we can achieve much more if we stay here and battle through this.
Interesting reading. Highlights the problem of scarcity though and upward pressure on prices. You immigrated but want to reduce immigration, you recognise the inflated cost of property, but your goal is a property portfolio, and you want to live close to the city but note that rents are sky high as there are a 100 people at every open. That's the challenge. Everything you want is finite and everyone else wants the same thing
You know that phrase “don’t hate the player, hate the game”. Btw, I’m not agains immigration but I’m agains immigrants arriving with a student visa with the goal of not learning but working and making money.
Thanks for sharing. It’s super hard to know what the right path is.. We feel like we can grow our salaries a bit more here and potentially invest in another property if we really pushed it, but that also comes at cost of more stress and also our family being apart. For example, my partner is currently in the USA working for a short time to earn a bit more and for career progress. So even if our salaries increase, as does our niches and inversely creating fewer places to grow and work so to speak. Australia is a beautiful country and I’m grateful to have this choice but we can’t help but feel stagnant. Work harder = get less. Properties in my home town on the central coast are so beyond what the average salary can afford and whilst always considered low socioec, there was hope here when I grew up. That hope seems to be fading, quickly and people seem despondent.
I get you, and feel that the fact of your partner being overseas and you having a small child to raise makes things extra complicated. I’m definitely not the best person to help as I’m also struggling to get my life and goals on track, but based on what I went through and what I learned, I would say that you shouldn’t be asking yourself what is the right path, but rather ask yourself where you want to be in 5 year, 10 years, 15 years… It’s much easier to find the path when you know the destination. Sometimes we are led to believe that we should all be successful people with a large property portfolio and a generous bank account, but that’s not true for everyone. For some of us happiness is a happy family, and some of us don’t actually care about wealth, they are just led to believe that that’s what they should be seeking. Like yeah, Australia is a beautiful country, good quality of life and all of that, but for some people true happiness is being close to family, wherever that is. So my advice is, don’t follow other people’s dreams, find your own dreams and the path will form in front of you.
Thanks for your reply, so nice. So many forms of wealth beyond property ownership/investment. A stable roof where we can be together, reduce our work stressors (if possible) and be together as a family is our idea of wealth.
You earn $2600 per week. More than three times someone on the minimum wage. And that's without even accounting for the income that your wife (presumably) adds. Lovingly, you need a reality check. $1000 per week is extremely affordable for you, so start applying for those rentals if you want to live in a better area. Your salary alone would make you a very desirable tenant. > Having kids is totally out of question at the moment if we want to save some cash to build a property portfolio. So many people have kids on far less money. If you want kids, your income is not an excuse. > We hope for a reduction on prices and interest rates, so we can start building our property portfolio and this will get us in a more comfortable spot. Not going to happen (prices) and not for the foreseeable future (rates). If you want to live somewhere cheaper, you will need to move out of Sydney. Otherwise, work with what you have. You have so many options compared to the majority of Australians, who would only dream of your salary.
Well exactly, I know I’m on a good situation right now and yes, I could afford to pay a $1.000/w rent, but the real question is: do I want to work only to afford living in Sydney, or do I want to use this momentum to save some money and build something bigger?
Don’t listen to the guy above. You don’t need a reality check. $1000 a week is not ‘extremely affordable’ because you earn 2600 take home a week. Will you have more money left over than someone on the median? Yes of course. But you are absolutely correct to question whether this is a good idea. That’s almost 40% of your take home pay. That’s not to be underestimated. You sound like you have the right idea in my view. Use the great income you have to get ahead, don’t trap yourself by accepting something excessively expensive just because you can (and others seem to think you have some bizzare obligation to).
Thanks! I strongly disagree on that opinion of "you earn more so it's ok to spend more". When I start making 300k a year I'll consider spending over $1000/w in rent, but right now I feel that $800/w is my hard limit for a good place to live in Sydney, which is already A LOT of money, but that's the current situation here.
It will turn around at some point. I'm 30, wife 28, we have 6 kids under 6 and I thought the same thing.. how do we set them up for a healthy future? With no hand outs from family ( aside from a drinking habit at a young age that I kicked when I met my wife). We worked hard early, when wife was pregnant with baby number 1 I knew we had to buy a place. Worked my ass off on apprentice wages to buy a fixer upper 40ks outside of a regional hub in Victoria. (Shepparton). Turned it around and sold it for a block in town. We are currently about to finish renovations on the mother in laws house ( trading rennos for rent ) (deffs would have been better off renting!!). The town has really kicked off and we are expecting to make a great return on our block when this financial crisis turns around. From there we are looking at building the 'family' home on a larger block on the outskirts where we can provide stability for the kids, with the ability to draw on that mortgage as it's value goes up, making sure our kids get every opportunity they can get. Not so we can shower them with shit and they won't learn the value of work or money... but to give them the best chance at making their own way. When every one moves out we can sell our bug family home and divvy up the money to the kids for them to put towards there own families to hopefully repeat the cycle.