As an organizer, I'm horrified.
If she doesn't reach out to try to repair this, you might want to consider making an official report to the NCSF. I'm not sure if there are any other people who work with this domme in throwing these parties, but if so, you could also approach them to make a report. My group has extensive policies in place for consent incidents, and the leaders were not exempt from the rules.
Please do not minimize this to yourself. This was not okay. If this is indeed a pattern of hers, reporting this publicly (such as on FetLife, though you would need to not name her or her event so as to not violate their TOS) may help others avoid similar or worse.
Let’s be real, even if she apologizes she still did what she did. She assaulted OP. It’s assault bc they didn’t agreed to this. I would report it anyway. If she’s that prominent in the BDSM community she’s surely done this before to other subs as well
I try to make room for people to be human. People fuck up.
It's how we react to those fuck ups that should determine how to interact with them going forward. If someone recognizes the fuck up, apologizes, takes accountability, works to find a way to prevent a similar fuckup in the future, and is transparent in future negotiations about their history? I usually consider them to be safer than someone who claims they've never fucked up.
If someone refuses to take accountability for their fuckups, though, or gives a perfunctory "I'm sorry" without doing any work to prevent the same shit from happening again? That's a huge red flag to me, and I would be seeking ways to shine a light on that missing stair, up to and including seeking charges.
That’s true. But one thing is fucking up and another is engaging in some type of play when you didn’t talk about it beforehand. In my opinion I see it as assault. Maybe this person could apologize and learn from that mistake, but I wouldn’t trust someone who did something to me when I didn’t consent to it. Or maybe that’s my trauma speaking
And that's absolutely valid. Victims never need to learn to trust someone who has previously violated that trust, or forgive them, or interact with them.
I try to approach these types of incidents with a restorative justice approach, generally. Kicking someone out of a scene, banning them for life? Predators can hop from city to city, finding new scenes and new victims. Leaving room for them to grow, improve, and return once that journey has been completed can make for a healthier and safer community overall (in my eyes, at least).
It does require the person who committed the assault to be participating fully, in good faith, though. Someone who doesn't want to change will never complete that journey. I have been victimized by someone who failed an RJ course in another community. I only found that out about him after we had our encounter; I wish I'd done a better job of vetting him. On the other hand, someone who committed a consent violation against me years ago went on a learning journey and has become one of the biggest advocates for consent I know. He has done so much work to improve that I now trust him as one of my very close friends.
~~Sorry, I haven't heard of the NCSF - what is that?~~ - nevermind, I found it. That seems to be specific to the US though, right? I'm not sure if OP ever specified where they were from.
Unfortunately you are learning a hard lesson that just because a person owns a space or wears a fancy kink title, doesn’t always mean they are safe. My local bdsm community is a dumpster fire after headmistresses were outed as abusers by mulllllltiple people.
This is not on you.
This is not small.
She should have never done that.
I think it’s wise to stay away from her. If she feels comfortable enough doing that, who knows what else.
>My local bdsm community is a dumpster fire after headmistresses were outed as abusers by mulllllltiple people.
Similar stuff here, I don't even attend events anymore because holy shit it seems like they're designated for the worst type of people who use BDSM as a cover for abuse. I'm super jealous of people who have good local communities - at this point I feel like that's a myth.
> I dropped pretty hard the following Monday and thinking back on how I didn't do anything made me feel so much worse.
If words from a random stranger on the internet hold any meaning: there is nothing wrong with not having reacted at all in the moment. Mid-scene and taken by surprise... a lot of people would probably have done the same.
> other women talking about how she always seems to figure out how to push the envelope to get what she wants.
Impact play without consent is not pushing the envelope, my friend. This woman seems to think that her role in the community allows her a certain amount of leeway to not have regard for consent? How grotesquely exploitative...
>"Thinking back on how I didn't do *anything* made me feel so much worse"
You said you are pretty new to the scene. (I am much newer than you btw)
It's the first time something like that happened to you. I understand your regret and wish that you handled it better but when you're in a situation like that, mid scene, especialy from the hostess who you said was a prominent authority figure in the community, she is literally double your age (I'm 32 so not much older than you). You can't be too hard on yourself for what you did or didn't do in that moment. Just learn from it for next time.
You mentioned your designated play partner left to cool down after making sure you were okay, they sound very nice. Is part of the reason your are upset is their feelings are hurt? I suggest talking to them and just being as honest about the whole thing, just like you've described in your post.
I'm super new like I said. I've never been to an event so take what I'm saying next with a grain of salt,
But I agree with you that it isn't fair this incident should ruin your enjoyment of these events. I would talk to the hostess who slapped you. Perhaps with your play partner by your side. And both tell her that you found what she did unacceptable. Hopefully she apologizes and you can continue to enjoy these events.
On the other hand you mentioned other people in the community told you she pushes the envelope often. Maybe this is just an ingrained trait of hers she can't change and you can't trust yourself to be in the same space with her again. That's unfortunate but I would ask your fellow community members for advice on how to deal with it
Best of luck
My play partner's reaction wasn't obvious to me in the moment, but we were driving to another party when she explained it from her POV. She's been great at helping me come to terms with everything about it. I wouldn't say her feelings are hurt, more so that this is someone she knew longer than me, so I guess in her mind, the domme should have known to not do that and it pissed her off.
Honestly, I just don't really want to even see her again. Obviously, I might run into her at certain places, but I just want to avoid her if I can.
I’m sorry this happened to you. Your reactions in the moment are totally understandable given how unexpected this was. She should have negotiated this (and whatever else she planned to do) with you before joining the scene with you. I think she should have known better than to do this. If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, you or your partner could tell her and ask for an apology. If she’s unwilling to do that, you can take the formal approach and she deserves whatever consequences happen.
Did you do any negotiation beforehand? There is a risk that playing with someone you haven't negotiated with will leave you open to things you weren't expecting - for example, if you'd said "no slapping" and she slapped you, that's a clear violation of consent. However if you had said no to some things, but hadn't said no to slapping, she may have (stupidly, IMO) assumed that it was OK. Or she may just have not really cared. Had you agreed that the other acts you were doing / having done to you were ok? E.g. had you agreed your ass could be fingered?
Long story short, don't play with people you haven't negotiated with if there are things you don't want, and when you do negotiate, use inclusive negotiation rather than exclusive - that's where you say "I only want X, Y and Z" as it means that you don't consent to any other acts. Likewise, she (IMO) shouldn't have done things she didn't have consent for, but sometimes events like these do assume a blanket protocol which may have led her to assume she could behave like that absent any proper negotiation.
Editing to add clarification since I wasn't clear about my meaning:
What I was referring to is that *perhaps* the community / regular event attendees had an (ill-advised) understanding that forced bi scenes, or CMNF events in general, or scenes with that specific Domme, or some other reason that made sense to them, would include certain things as standard. E.g. perhaps certain words / language were assumed to be ok, even if some people might find them offensive / triggering, perhaps being slapped was normal, perhaps being expected to avoid eye contact was normal. Since OP was relatively new, they may not have known any of this, and the Domme being a regular may not have thought - stupidly - to clarify. I'm not saying it's OK to do something you haven't agreed to (at no point did I say that), I'm not saying it's OK to have unwritten rules or that any of what I just described is OK - just that sometimes people are idiots and don't think (like this Domme) so IMO any opportunity for adding clarity should be taken. Ironic, since that's exactly what has happened here! I should have been clearer in my original comment since I already know that consent can be a thorny topic. And I'm not implying anyone who interpreted my comments differently to how I intended them is an idiot, just that this Domme is an idiot.
I had verbally okay'd the bi stuff and the ass play, and when she had brought up pegging, I had immediately said no as I hadn't had anything dick-sized up there in a while.
Anything extra, I assumed would be asked as it had been in the past.
People are gonna bust your chops and victim blame you for not listing 57 things upfront that you’re not ok with during a brief in person first time negotiation at a party. When the truth is, you can’t foresee every move someone is going to make, so there’s no way to exclude every possible nutty thing someone may try to pull off. I personally think that it goes without saying an openhanded face slap delivered by a brand new partner who only did a bare bones negotiation quickly for a scene at a public play party is totally overstepping in the scene and it’s abusive. There are so many ways that she could have tested that out/built it up a bit to feel out in the moment to gauge what your response would be.
And I’m so surprised that no one has brought up gender yet, if the roles were reversed and this was a male Dom I doubt many people would be blaming the victim
Then IMO she should have asked about slapping too; that's not OK on her part, but likewise you should have said you didn't want to be slapped if you knew you don't like it. That's why inclusive negotiation is so much better, it doesn't leave any room for misunderstandings.
If something wasn't discussed, it shouldn't be done. It's not on OP to remember everything that could happen that they don't want. It's on the domme to have confirmed what she wanted to do.
Like I said, the Domme should have asked, but if someone knows they don't want something and they're not asked about it, and still don't say "oh btw I don't want X" then they've missed an opportunity to communicate. People aren't mindreaders, and this is why communication is so darned important.
It's not OK to do something you don't explicitly have consent to do, but IMO it would be better to speak up first rather than have something unwanted happen and have to have the discussion afterwards.
And you're demonstrating just how important it is to communicate rather than try and guess what someone means.
What I said:
- "The Domme should have asked"
- "It's not ok to do something you don't explicitly have consent to do"
- "She may have stupidly assumed it was ok"
- "She shouldn't have done things she didn't have consent for"
- "She should have asked about slapping, that's not OK on her part"
What you claim I essentially said:
- "Absence of a no is a yes"
Here we can see how I *thought* I was being pretty clear that the Domme should have asked, that the Domme was an idiot, and that what she did was not OK, but despite me thinking that my words were enough to adequately convey my intent, you've still managed to read something I *didn't* say.
Mhm yeah. You said all that to make your point sound better but at the end of the day everything you’ve wrote has come across incredibly victim blamey and implies you think it’s OP fault, or atleast partially OPs fault this happened to them.
You’re trying to excuse what this person did as a “stupid mistake” or the fault of OPs , rather than the really cruel and uncaring action it is. OP has come here, expressed to us somethings happened to them without their consent, and instead of showing empathy to them you’re giving a lecture about how they could’ve done better by negotiating? You’ve tried to sugar coat it but you ARE victim blaming right now.
I mean you literally said
> “likewise you should have said you didn’t want to be slapped if you knew you didn’t like it”
I’m sorry that’s actually disgusting. Consent isn’t a ask for forgiveness not permission type of thing. It’s an ask for permission and if you don’t you won’t be forgiven type of thing.
In fairness, OP never said the negotiation was exclusive. I think it's a good idea to clarify to someone that you view it as inclusive & make sure they're aware that anything you haven't verbally consented to is off the table, but also I don't think someone is in any way to blame if someone does something to them that they did not verbally consent to. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the hostess who slapped OP should know better than to do that if they're organising events. In my opinion, inclusive negotiation should always be seen as the default - exclusive negotiation leaves too much room for forgetting things, overlooking things, etc.
I'd be curious to know how the hostess would respond to being contacted about this - if they cannot accept that slapping someone without their consent is unacceptable, and if they do not apologise, at least personally I do not feel that they should be organising events (it's already bad enough that they did this, but hopefully they learn from it).
It's also the kind of thing I think most people would want to know before going to this person's events, so they can make a decision about whether they feel comfortable going in the knowledge that the *organiser* might disrespect their consent - especially if that organiser does not apologise & work to do better in future. I definitely wouldn't, and I'd rather know beforehand instead of finding out by getting my consent violated too.
OP, if it's possible for you to inform others in your community of this somehow, and if you feel comfortable doing so, I think that might be a good idea. I'm so sorry this happened to you though - it's completely unacceptable for someone to do, let alone an organiser, and I can fully understand why it would be so upsetting. Please don't beat yourself up over this - you're not stupid, you were shocked/stunned by something that happened mid-scene. It's completely understandable that you struggled to process & vocalise your feelings in that moment.
> I feel like the hostess who slapped OP should know better than to do that if they're organising events
I think this hits the nail of the problem honestly. I think we've all have had a moments of miscommunication in our lives - BDSM or just relationship wise. We make mistakes (sometimes small, sometimes big). We learn.
I wouldn't expect pair of late teens who're experimenting for the first time to do everything right. But this is 50yo person with (probably) years of experience who's also organizing the events. If this was post "I'm 18, my GF is my domme, she's also 18, she smacked me in the face and we didn't discussed it" it would still be a bad thing, but we could lean more into "it was a honest mistake". But here is someone who should be held to the HIGHEST standard.
I wish it would be the norm to start with agreeing on inclusive or exclusive negotiation. I don't agree that one is inherently better than the other, I think they just suit different situations and people.
I don’t want u/TeaAitch to strangle me with an iPhone charger, but I haven’t specifically told him that….should I be worried? When should I list all the things I don’t want him to do?
Thank goodness you were specific! I'm such an Android fan boy, I'd never use your filthy Apple product!
[Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow](https://www.amazon.co.uk/JALIXI-Charger-Charging-Durable-Samsung/dp/B0BL7MRQH9/). x
Exactly! That's why inclusive negotiation is so much better than exclusive negotiation! But here we are with people saying "my only limits are X and Y" and then being surprised when Z happens because they didn't know it was a possibility.
> That's why inclusive negotiation is so much better than exclusive negotiation!
You've changed your position.
I think the Golden Rule has to be, "Do only that which has been discussed." It leaves no room for error. Nobody is going to list ALL THE THINGS they don't want to do.
* Don't feed me a spoon of marmalade in the middle of a spanking scene.
* Don't make me piss myself on the bus.
* NO STICKING UNWASHED PIGEON FEATHERS UP MY ARSE! (written in red and underlined)
* Don't call me Marjorie.
* Don't call me, Marjorie.
* A [list](https://simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_people_by_name) of the people I do not want to fuck (you will note Jamelia is not on the list.)
* Filling my washing machine with your dirty laundry on the days we fuck, is not an act of service on my behalf.
> being surprised when Z happens because they didn't know it was a possibility.
If it wasn't expressly spoken about and agreed to, it never was a possibility. That's the point that everyone else is making. I say that's a basic expectation.
Agreeing to anal and oral sex, is not the same as agreeing to ATM. Just because neither of us thought to mention it, doesn't mean there's a greenlight to go ahead with it.
Do only that which has been discussed - yes, that's inclusive negotiation, and that's what I've been saying all along. The Domme should not have done it because it wasn't agreed to.
What's causing confusion? I don't see how I've changed my position?
The only thing I can think of is that I also said "if you know you don't like being slapped, but don't say it, then you've missed an opportunity for communication" (and again later), but that's just belt and braces. I might say "I only want X and Y" but, because I know a lot of people do feet stuff which I hate, I would *also* say "and definitely no feet stuff". That doesn't mean it would have been ok if I hadn't said it, it's just an *extra* layer of clarity.
ETA: Adding in every other possible thing under the sun would be silly, but I'd say that because I really really don't like feet stuff, and I know I don't like it.
> Do only that which has been discussed
That isn't what happened in the case of OP. At which point you asked them what had been negotiated.
> There is a risk that playing with someone you haven't negotiated with will leave you open to things you weren't expecting - for example, if you'd said "no slapping" and she slapped you, that's a clear violation of consent. However if you had said no to some things, but hadn't said no to slapping, she may have (stupidly, IMO) assumed that it was OK.
You're advocating for exclusive negotiation. I realise in a later paragraph you go on to talk about inclusive negotiation, but I think the above is what people are reacting to.
The general disagreement seems to be, if I exclude X & Y, that doesn't leave me open to Z.
Ahhhhh ok, thank you! I can see I should have elaborated on this point. The irony of my mistake is not lost on me...
What I was referring to is that *perhaps* the community / regular event attendees had an (ill-advised) understanding that forced bi scenes, or CMNF events in general, or scenes with that specific Domme, or some other reason that made sense to them, would include certain things as standard. E.g. perhaps certain words / language were assumed to be ok, even if some people might find them offensive / triggering, perhaps being slapped was normal, perhaps being expected to avoid eye contact was normal. Since OP was relatively new, they may not have known any of this, and the Domme being a regular may not have thought - stupidly - to clarify. I'm not saying it's OK to do something you haven't agreed to (at no point did I say that), I'm not saying it's OK to have unwritten rules or that any of what I just described is OK - just that sometimes people are idiots and don't think (like this Domme) so IMO any opportunity for adding clarity should be taken. Ironic, since that's exactly what has happened here! I should have been clearer in my original comment since I already know that consent can be a thorny topic. And I'm not implying anyone who interpreted my comments differently to how I intended them is an idiot, just that this Domme is an idiot.
I wasn't advocating for exclusive negotiation - I'm pretty sure I said she was stupid for thinking it was OK - but I can see how I could have been clearer in opposing it.
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand where I went wrong!
I don't think anyone should be in any doubt that you have often spoken loudly, firmly and **positively** about the practice of consent, in many forms. I *know* you are critical of, and wish to educate, those who get it wrong.
[twooldmenshakinghands.jpg](https://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads/2016/04/shake.png)
> I assumed would be asked as it had been in the past.
That's a perfectly reasonable expectation. We negotiate to include, not exclude. Of course, it's important to mention hard limits, but that DOES NOT mean anything left unsaid is fair game. It saddens me to see some people being accepting of that approach.
> However if you had said no to some things, but hadn't said no to slapping, she may have (stupidly, IMO) assumed that it was OK. Or she may just have not really cared.
If I go to someone at a party, get permission to slap their butt, then slap their face, isn't that a consent violation?
I get that some people want a sort of "blanket" consent rather than have to negotiate every detail, but I believe that should be agreed upon beforehand, or at least somehow consented nonverbally, if there is enough understanding between the two.
But here, the domme didn't bother with that.
When you say she slapped you … where did she slap you? Did it come with any kind of verbal correction? Was it relating to your eagerness to suck the cock in front of you, where you were supposed to be “forced” to do it instead?
I’m just trying to get a clearer picture of how this slap happened?
She had slapped me across the face. I honestly don't even remember what, or if, there was a reasoning behind it. I think I had been doing the "no please don't make me suck that cock," and then she had slapped me in the face, but I can't say for sure. Its a blur, I mainly remember the shock at it just happening with no warning.
I have to respectfully disagree with what you’re saying here. Consent to impact play, especially during CNC, (which is what you described) needs to be explicit and specific and this domme did not do that. Calling an act “forced bisexuality” but not explicitly explaining that it will involve impact play doesn’t give a domme blanket consent to slap her play partners.
We know she had reasons and assumptions for why she did what she did, but none of those reasons make her assault on OP ok. Because that is what he’s described here in his post and comments: assault. Nothing less. If the domme in question is running parties a staging scenes, she needs to take responsibility for all aspects of her behavior. The fact that she’s in charge, no matter how chaotic a scene is, puts even more onus on her to keep her behavior by-the-book, and she failed miserably.
OP, you are not confused. You didn’t consent, and the “freeze” response you’re describing is really common after one’s physical boundaries are breached. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
One of my play partners enjoys forced scenes. She enjoys struggle of fight. And she would drop me in an instant if I smacked her anywhere except her ass and pussy. If you can't find a way to force someone without hitting them in the face it speaks more about your lack of imagination.
Forced play =/= impact play. It's also not a blank cheque for ANYTHING to force partner. Can I use a knife? No. Can I use a gun? Hell fucking no. Can I use needles? Branding iron? What about waterboarding? What about just a threat of waterboarding? Anything goes with FORCED scene, right?
It wasn't a forced bi party, it was clothed female naked male. The only stipulation that the males had was to be naked and in a submissive mindset. If a guy was straight, he wouldn't be forced to suck dick. What was said to me, with the domme knowing I was bi, was essentially just "hey, let's do a forced bi scene. I'm sure x would be down if I can find him."
I have done a scene at the previous party with her that was, in her words, "forced bi". The vibe in that scene was more degradation, but she did not slap me like she did here. This is what I was expecting when she came up to me about this scene. At no point did she mention impact of any kind.
Please do not twist my words and try to tell others that this was a party where men were forced to be bi and this was something to be expected. If I wasn't in the mood to suck ANY dick, that (in theory) would have been okay.
>Then protect yourself and make it known in advance.
20 years experience and this is your response?!?! **You** got the situation very wrong. **You** repeatedly stated should accept being assaulted. Now that you've discovered **you** were wrong, you change tact and tell them they should do more to protect them self!?!?
**You** are unsafe! You practice unsafe BDSM, and you try to convince others that is acceptable. Pretty much everyone else here believes that if you're with someone new, if it hasn't been specifically spoken about, it has not been consented to.
I am convinced that those who have to continually tell us how long they've been doing this, are doing so from a position of insecurity. It's utterly meaningless; it's not a sign of knowledge, it doesn't convey experience, or empathy. Just as hanging around a pool hall for twenty years doesn't make anyone a good pool player, so it is with any other avocation.
On top of that, you've chosen to ignore our rules. Even though u/Pleasureviews specifically advised you otherwise!
Rule 7 applies.
Rule 10 applies.
Comments removed. 3 day ban issued.
;i; < - - - here's your salamander.
Do NOT give this sort of advice here again, and for the love of the Baby Jesus, nobody cares how long you've been doing this.
>We dommes have to find a way to fake force you so you have a good time.
>You DO know it was fake, right?
Wow, here I am hesitant to explore face slapping whenever new partner wants it because it's fucking scary and can cause myriad of problems (nerve issues, TMJ) and it turns out it's just a fake thing to have more fun!
TIL.
>Please feel free to dm privately if you have other questions.
And that's actually not allowed in here.
She is an abuser and you don’t sound too different. If it was a man the sub would be calling to report it to police . This isn’t ok and you justifying assault is FU
Noting your update: I love that your play partner feels the same way. This is a huge green flag for them and I’m really happy you have them in your corner!!
> it is not consent violation if you didn't say no to face slapping
What the fuck? Absence of no doesn't mean yes. What's this backward victim blaming here?
>That way you have actually said you can not slap me without verbally saying it
He did by not saying yes.
>He did by not saying yes.
I agree with this. Unfortunately every community I have ever been part of in my god knows how many years (I'm old) will agree with what you say but nothing happens to the offender. Maybe I've just been part of shitty communities. What I was trying to say very poorly, I might add, is that is it just safer to do this. It's a sentence that makes absolutely clear. It shouldn't be necessary but sadly I think it is.
As for the first part I'm not blaming him. I think that not including something in negotiation should be sufficient but I know from experience that it's sometimes not. Not when you report it etc. And that is what I meant by that statement and I should have clarified that. Maybe OP has a good community that will take action. I know mine wouldn't so I don't gamble with that shit.
That's fair, but your reply here shows more light. Like, your first message doesn't have the explanation of your experience with clubs, so it just reads as "it's your own fault", whereas your second message is more of "this isn't your fault, however due to club policies they'll just treat it as if it were your fault because you haven't explicitly said "no" and it's shitty but this is how it often is". This is why I got so defensive (and probably people who downvoted you as well). Thank you for explaining what you meant.
>it is not consent violation if you didn't say no to face slapping.
It absolutely is! The difference is, you don't know what consent is. Go and watch that appalling video, where they talk about cups of tea. Don't skip it, there'll be a test.
Rule 10 applies.
Comment removed.
Hope she's not isolating you .sounds like your partner made it a problem. Would you have had a problem with it had your partner not had a problem? Of course host domne should have gotten your consent, but I find it very interesting what acts people hold as more humiliation than others.
No, we weren't in a relationship outside the scene. Besides this, there was some emotional stuff between us we couldn't see eye to eye on, so we aren't seeing eachother anymore. Regardless, I think this soured both our experiences.
EDIT: Wait, you worded your question weird. I didn't have a problem with it because my partner did, I had a problem with it because the domme slapped me out of nowhere. My play partner was there during this and helped to make sure I didn't get consent violated again.
I'm not seeing that domme again. Also, I'm 99% positive you edited that original comment. My play partner did nothing wrong in that situation and I'm capable of knowing my own feelings.
I've had this issue with people who identify as "FemDoms" before
I've been in the scene for 12 years and I've only ever had issues with people who identify as "FemDoms", as a female identifying person, they treat me better than they treat male identifying people. But as a group they are entitled. They think that everyone should refer to them by their title and they will do whatever they think they should do at the moment...
Ladies who just identify as dominant, on the other hand, are wonderful human beings.
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As an organizer, I'm horrified. If she doesn't reach out to try to repair this, you might want to consider making an official report to the NCSF. I'm not sure if there are any other people who work with this domme in throwing these parties, but if so, you could also approach them to make a report. My group has extensive policies in place for consent incidents, and the leaders were not exempt from the rules. Please do not minimize this to yourself. This was not okay. If this is indeed a pattern of hers, reporting this publicly (such as on FetLife, though you would need to not name her or her event so as to not violate their TOS) may help others avoid similar or worse.
Let’s be real, even if she apologizes she still did what she did. She assaulted OP. It’s assault bc they didn’t agreed to this. I would report it anyway. If she’s that prominent in the BDSM community she’s surely done this before to other subs as well
I try to make room for people to be human. People fuck up. It's how we react to those fuck ups that should determine how to interact with them going forward. If someone recognizes the fuck up, apologizes, takes accountability, works to find a way to prevent a similar fuckup in the future, and is transparent in future negotiations about their history? I usually consider them to be safer than someone who claims they've never fucked up. If someone refuses to take accountability for their fuckups, though, or gives a perfunctory "I'm sorry" without doing any work to prevent the same shit from happening again? That's a huge red flag to me, and I would be seeking ways to shine a light on that missing stair, up to and including seeking charges.
That’s true. But one thing is fucking up and another is engaging in some type of play when you didn’t talk about it beforehand. In my opinion I see it as assault. Maybe this person could apologize and learn from that mistake, but I wouldn’t trust someone who did something to me when I didn’t consent to it. Or maybe that’s my trauma speaking
And that's absolutely valid. Victims never need to learn to trust someone who has previously violated that trust, or forgive them, or interact with them. I try to approach these types of incidents with a restorative justice approach, generally. Kicking someone out of a scene, banning them for life? Predators can hop from city to city, finding new scenes and new victims. Leaving room for them to grow, improve, and return once that journey has been completed can make for a healthier and safer community overall (in my eyes, at least). It does require the person who committed the assault to be participating fully, in good faith, though. Someone who doesn't want to change will never complete that journey. I have been victimized by someone who failed an RJ course in another community. I only found that out about him after we had our encounter; I wish I'd done a better job of vetting him. On the other hand, someone who committed a consent violation against me years ago went on a learning journey and has become one of the biggest advocates for consent I know. He has done so much work to improve that I now trust him as one of my very close friends.
~~Sorry, I haven't heard of the NCSF - what is that?~~ - nevermind, I found it. That seems to be specific to the US though, right? I'm not sure if OP ever specified where they were from.
I am in the US, so its applicable.
Fair enough :) just wasn't sure
Good callout, thank you!
Unfortunately you are learning a hard lesson that just because a person owns a space or wears a fancy kink title, doesn’t always mean they are safe. My local bdsm community is a dumpster fire after headmistresses were outed as abusers by mulllllltiple people. This is not on you. This is not small. She should have never done that. I think it’s wise to stay away from her. If she feels comfortable enough doing that, who knows what else.
>My local bdsm community is a dumpster fire after headmistresses were outed as abusers by mulllllltiple people. Similar stuff here, I don't even attend events anymore because holy shit it seems like they're designated for the worst type of people who use BDSM as a cover for abuse. I'm super jealous of people who have good local communities - at this point I feel like that's a myth.
> I dropped pretty hard the following Monday and thinking back on how I didn't do anything made me feel so much worse. If words from a random stranger on the internet hold any meaning: there is nothing wrong with not having reacted at all in the moment. Mid-scene and taken by surprise... a lot of people would probably have done the same. > other women talking about how she always seems to figure out how to push the envelope to get what she wants. Impact play without consent is not pushing the envelope, my friend. This woman seems to think that her role in the community allows her a certain amount of leeway to not have regard for consent? How grotesquely exploitative...
>"Thinking back on how I didn't do *anything* made me feel so much worse" You said you are pretty new to the scene. (I am much newer than you btw) It's the first time something like that happened to you. I understand your regret and wish that you handled it better but when you're in a situation like that, mid scene, especialy from the hostess who you said was a prominent authority figure in the community, she is literally double your age (I'm 32 so not much older than you). You can't be too hard on yourself for what you did or didn't do in that moment. Just learn from it for next time. You mentioned your designated play partner left to cool down after making sure you were okay, they sound very nice. Is part of the reason your are upset is their feelings are hurt? I suggest talking to them and just being as honest about the whole thing, just like you've described in your post. I'm super new like I said. I've never been to an event so take what I'm saying next with a grain of salt, But I agree with you that it isn't fair this incident should ruin your enjoyment of these events. I would talk to the hostess who slapped you. Perhaps with your play partner by your side. And both tell her that you found what she did unacceptable. Hopefully she apologizes and you can continue to enjoy these events. On the other hand you mentioned other people in the community told you she pushes the envelope often. Maybe this is just an ingrained trait of hers she can't change and you can't trust yourself to be in the same space with her again. That's unfortunate but I would ask your fellow community members for advice on how to deal with it Best of luck
My play partner's reaction wasn't obvious to me in the moment, but we were driving to another party when she explained it from her POV. She's been great at helping me come to terms with everything about it. I wouldn't say her feelings are hurt, more so that this is someone she knew longer than me, so I guess in her mind, the domme should have known to not do that and it pissed her off. Honestly, I just don't really want to even see her again. Obviously, I might run into her at certain places, but I just want to avoid her if I can.
I’m sorry this happened to you. Your reactions in the moment are totally understandable given how unexpected this was. She should have negotiated this (and whatever else she planned to do) with you before joining the scene with you. I think she should have known better than to do this. If you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, you or your partner could tell her and ask for an apology. If she’s unwilling to do that, you can take the formal approach and she deserves whatever consequences happen.
Did you do any negotiation beforehand? There is a risk that playing with someone you haven't negotiated with will leave you open to things you weren't expecting - for example, if you'd said "no slapping" and she slapped you, that's a clear violation of consent. However if you had said no to some things, but hadn't said no to slapping, she may have (stupidly, IMO) assumed that it was OK. Or she may just have not really cared. Had you agreed that the other acts you were doing / having done to you were ok? E.g. had you agreed your ass could be fingered? Long story short, don't play with people you haven't negotiated with if there are things you don't want, and when you do negotiate, use inclusive negotiation rather than exclusive - that's where you say "I only want X, Y and Z" as it means that you don't consent to any other acts. Likewise, she (IMO) shouldn't have done things she didn't have consent for, but sometimes events like these do assume a blanket protocol which may have led her to assume she could behave like that absent any proper negotiation. Editing to add clarification since I wasn't clear about my meaning: What I was referring to is that *perhaps* the community / regular event attendees had an (ill-advised) understanding that forced bi scenes, or CMNF events in general, or scenes with that specific Domme, or some other reason that made sense to them, would include certain things as standard. E.g. perhaps certain words / language were assumed to be ok, even if some people might find them offensive / triggering, perhaps being slapped was normal, perhaps being expected to avoid eye contact was normal. Since OP was relatively new, they may not have known any of this, and the Domme being a regular may not have thought - stupidly - to clarify. I'm not saying it's OK to do something you haven't agreed to (at no point did I say that), I'm not saying it's OK to have unwritten rules or that any of what I just described is OK - just that sometimes people are idiots and don't think (like this Domme) so IMO any opportunity for adding clarity should be taken. Ironic, since that's exactly what has happened here! I should have been clearer in my original comment since I already know that consent can be a thorny topic. And I'm not implying anyone who interpreted my comments differently to how I intended them is an idiot, just that this Domme is an idiot.
I had verbally okay'd the bi stuff and the ass play, and when she had brought up pegging, I had immediately said no as I hadn't had anything dick-sized up there in a while. Anything extra, I assumed would be asked as it had been in the past.
People are gonna bust your chops and victim blame you for not listing 57 things upfront that you’re not ok with during a brief in person first time negotiation at a party. When the truth is, you can’t foresee every move someone is going to make, so there’s no way to exclude every possible nutty thing someone may try to pull off. I personally think that it goes without saying an openhanded face slap delivered by a brand new partner who only did a bare bones negotiation quickly for a scene at a public play party is totally overstepping in the scene and it’s abusive. There are so many ways that she could have tested that out/built it up a bit to feel out in the moment to gauge what your response would be. And I’m so surprised that no one has brought up gender yet, if the roles were reversed and this was a male Dom I doubt many people would be blaming the victim
Then IMO she should have asked about slapping too; that's not OK on her part, but likewise you should have said you didn't want to be slapped if you knew you don't like it. That's why inclusive negotiation is so much better, it doesn't leave any room for misunderstandings.
If something wasn't discussed, it shouldn't be done. It's not on OP to remember everything that could happen that they don't want. It's on the domme to have confirmed what she wanted to do.
Like I said, the Domme should have asked, but if someone knows they don't want something and they're not asked about it, and still don't say "oh btw I don't want X" then they've missed an opportunity to communicate. People aren't mindreaders, and this is why communication is so darned important. It's not OK to do something you don't explicitly have consent to do, but IMO it would be better to speak up first rather than have something unwanted happen and have to have the discussion afterwards.
The absence of a “no” isn’t a “yes,” this is like consent 101.
Did I say it was?
Essentially yes. What you’ve described would be taking the absence of a no as a yes.
And you're demonstrating just how important it is to communicate rather than try and guess what someone means. What I said: - "The Domme should have asked" - "It's not ok to do something you don't explicitly have consent to do" - "She may have stupidly assumed it was ok" - "She shouldn't have done things she didn't have consent for" - "She should have asked about slapping, that's not OK on her part" What you claim I essentially said: - "Absence of a no is a yes" Here we can see how I *thought* I was being pretty clear that the Domme should have asked, that the Domme was an idiot, and that what she did was not OK, but despite me thinking that my words were enough to adequately convey my intent, you've still managed to read something I *didn't* say.
Mhm yeah. You said all that to make your point sound better but at the end of the day everything you’ve wrote has come across incredibly victim blamey and implies you think it’s OP fault, or atleast partially OPs fault this happened to them. You’re trying to excuse what this person did as a “stupid mistake” or the fault of OPs , rather than the really cruel and uncaring action it is. OP has come here, expressed to us somethings happened to them without their consent, and instead of showing empathy to them you’re giving a lecture about how they could’ve done better by negotiating? You’ve tried to sugar coat it but you ARE victim blaming right now. I mean you literally said > “likewise you should have said you didn’t want to be slapped if you knew you didn’t like it” I’m sorry that’s actually disgusting. Consent isn’t a ask for forgiveness not permission type of thing. It’s an ask for permission and if you don’t you won’t be forgiven type of thing.
In fairness, OP never said the negotiation was exclusive. I think it's a good idea to clarify to someone that you view it as inclusive & make sure they're aware that anything you haven't verbally consented to is off the table, but also I don't think someone is in any way to blame if someone does something to them that they did not verbally consent to. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the hostess who slapped OP should know better than to do that if they're organising events. In my opinion, inclusive negotiation should always be seen as the default - exclusive negotiation leaves too much room for forgetting things, overlooking things, etc. I'd be curious to know how the hostess would respond to being contacted about this - if they cannot accept that slapping someone without their consent is unacceptable, and if they do not apologise, at least personally I do not feel that they should be organising events (it's already bad enough that they did this, but hopefully they learn from it). It's also the kind of thing I think most people would want to know before going to this person's events, so they can make a decision about whether they feel comfortable going in the knowledge that the *organiser* might disrespect their consent - especially if that organiser does not apologise & work to do better in future. I definitely wouldn't, and I'd rather know beforehand instead of finding out by getting my consent violated too. OP, if it's possible for you to inform others in your community of this somehow, and if you feel comfortable doing so, I think that might be a good idea. I'm so sorry this happened to you though - it's completely unacceptable for someone to do, let alone an organiser, and I can fully understand why it would be so upsetting. Please don't beat yourself up over this - you're not stupid, you were shocked/stunned by something that happened mid-scene. It's completely understandable that you struggled to process & vocalise your feelings in that moment.
> I feel like the hostess who slapped OP should know better than to do that if they're organising events I think this hits the nail of the problem honestly. I think we've all have had a moments of miscommunication in our lives - BDSM or just relationship wise. We make mistakes (sometimes small, sometimes big). We learn. I wouldn't expect pair of late teens who're experimenting for the first time to do everything right. But this is 50yo person with (probably) years of experience who's also organizing the events. If this was post "I'm 18, my GF is my domme, she's also 18, she smacked me in the face and we didn't discussed it" it would still be a bad thing, but we could lean more into "it was a honest mistake". But here is someone who should be held to the HIGHEST standard.
I wish it would be the norm to start with agreeing on inclusive or exclusive negotiation. I don't agree that one is inherently better than the other, I think they just suit different situations and people.
I don’t want u/TeaAitch to strangle me with an iPhone charger, but I haven’t specifically told him that….should I be worried? When should I list all the things I don’t want him to do?
Thank goodness you were specific! I'm such an Android fan boy, I'd never use your filthy Apple product! [Looking forward to seeing you tomorrow](https://www.amazon.co.uk/JALIXI-Charger-Charging-Durable-Samsung/dp/B0BL7MRQH9/). x
Exactly! That's why inclusive negotiation is so much better than exclusive negotiation! But here we are with people saying "my only limits are X and Y" and then being surprised when Z happens because they didn't know it was a possibility.
> That's why inclusive negotiation is so much better than exclusive negotiation! You've changed your position. I think the Golden Rule has to be, "Do only that which has been discussed." It leaves no room for error. Nobody is going to list ALL THE THINGS they don't want to do. * Don't feed me a spoon of marmalade in the middle of a spanking scene. * Don't make me piss myself on the bus. * NO STICKING UNWASHED PIGEON FEATHERS UP MY ARSE! (written in red and underlined) * Don't call me Marjorie. * Don't call me, Marjorie. * A [list](https://simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_people_by_name) of the people I do not want to fuck (you will note Jamelia is not on the list.) * Filling my washing machine with your dirty laundry on the days we fuck, is not an act of service on my behalf. > being surprised when Z happens because they didn't know it was a possibility. If it wasn't expressly spoken about and agreed to, it never was a possibility. That's the point that everyone else is making. I say that's a basic expectation. Agreeing to anal and oral sex, is not the same as agreeing to ATM. Just because neither of us thought to mention it, doesn't mean there's a greenlight to go ahead with it.
Do only that which has been discussed - yes, that's inclusive negotiation, and that's what I've been saying all along. The Domme should not have done it because it wasn't agreed to. What's causing confusion? I don't see how I've changed my position? The only thing I can think of is that I also said "if you know you don't like being slapped, but don't say it, then you've missed an opportunity for communication" (and again later), but that's just belt and braces. I might say "I only want X and Y" but, because I know a lot of people do feet stuff which I hate, I would *also* say "and definitely no feet stuff". That doesn't mean it would have been ok if I hadn't said it, it's just an *extra* layer of clarity. ETA: Adding in every other possible thing under the sun would be silly, but I'd say that because I really really don't like feet stuff, and I know I don't like it.
> Do only that which has been discussed That isn't what happened in the case of OP. At which point you asked them what had been negotiated. > There is a risk that playing with someone you haven't negotiated with will leave you open to things you weren't expecting - for example, if you'd said "no slapping" and she slapped you, that's a clear violation of consent. However if you had said no to some things, but hadn't said no to slapping, she may have (stupidly, IMO) assumed that it was OK. You're advocating for exclusive negotiation. I realise in a later paragraph you go on to talk about inclusive negotiation, but I think the above is what people are reacting to. The general disagreement seems to be, if I exclude X & Y, that doesn't leave me open to Z.
Ahhhhh ok, thank you! I can see I should have elaborated on this point. The irony of my mistake is not lost on me... What I was referring to is that *perhaps* the community / regular event attendees had an (ill-advised) understanding that forced bi scenes, or CMNF events in general, or scenes with that specific Domme, or some other reason that made sense to them, would include certain things as standard. E.g. perhaps certain words / language were assumed to be ok, even if some people might find them offensive / triggering, perhaps being slapped was normal, perhaps being expected to avoid eye contact was normal. Since OP was relatively new, they may not have known any of this, and the Domme being a regular may not have thought - stupidly - to clarify. I'm not saying it's OK to do something you haven't agreed to (at no point did I say that), I'm not saying it's OK to have unwritten rules or that any of what I just described is OK - just that sometimes people are idiots and don't think (like this Domme) so IMO any opportunity for adding clarity should be taken. Ironic, since that's exactly what has happened here! I should have been clearer in my original comment since I already know that consent can be a thorny topic. And I'm not implying anyone who interpreted my comments differently to how I intended them is an idiot, just that this Domme is an idiot. I wasn't advocating for exclusive negotiation - I'm pretty sure I said she was stupid for thinking it was OK - but I can see how I could have been clearer in opposing it. Thank you for taking the time to help me understand where I went wrong!
I don't think anyone should be in any doubt that you have often spoken loudly, firmly and **positively** about the practice of consent, in many forms. I *know* you are critical of, and wish to educate, those who get it wrong. [twooldmenshakinghands.jpg](https://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads/2016/04/shake.png)
> I assumed would be asked as it had been in the past. That's a perfectly reasonable expectation. We negotiate to include, not exclude. Of course, it's important to mention hard limits, but that DOES NOT mean anything left unsaid is fair game. It saddens me to see some people being accepting of that approach.
> However if you had said no to some things, but hadn't said no to slapping, she may have (stupidly, IMO) assumed that it was OK. Or she may just have not really cared. If I go to someone at a party, get permission to slap their butt, then slap their face, isn't that a consent violation? I get that some people want a sort of "blanket" consent rather than have to negotiate every detail, but I believe that should be agreed upon beforehand, or at least somehow consented nonverbally, if there is enough understanding between the two. But here, the domme didn't bother with that.
That's why I said it was stupid of her to assume it was OK, or may have not cared.
That's not stupid that's violation of consent. Not saying no is NEVER a yes.
Yesss-duh @ myself. This is the way
I'm sorry this happened. Take care of yourself.
When you say she slapped you … where did she slap you? Did it come with any kind of verbal correction? Was it relating to your eagerness to suck the cock in front of you, where you were supposed to be “forced” to do it instead? I’m just trying to get a clearer picture of how this slap happened?
She had slapped me across the face. I honestly don't even remember what, or if, there was a reasoning behind it. I think I had been doing the "no please don't make me suck that cock," and then she had slapped me in the face, but I can't say for sure. Its a blur, I mainly remember the shock at it just happening with no warning.
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I have to respectfully disagree with what you’re saying here. Consent to impact play, especially during CNC, (which is what you described) needs to be explicit and specific and this domme did not do that. Calling an act “forced bisexuality” but not explicitly explaining that it will involve impact play doesn’t give a domme blanket consent to slap her play partners. We know she had reasons and assumptions for why she did what she did, but none of those reasons make her assault on OP ok. Because that is what he’s described here in his post and comments: assault. Nothing less. If the domme in question is running parties a staging scenes, she needs to take responsibility for all aspects of her behavior. The fact that she’s in charge, no matter how chaotic a scene is, puts even more onus on her to keep her behavior by-the-book, and she failed miserably. OP, you are not confused. You didn’t consent, and the “freeze” response you’re describing is really common after one’s physical boundaries are breached. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
OP was assaulted, please don't tell him to "try to enjoy" his assault.
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One of my play partners enjoys forced scenes. She enjoys struggle of fight. And she would drop me in an instant if I smacked her anywhere except her ass and pussy. If you can't find a way to force someone without hitting them in the face it speaks more about your lack of imagination. Forced play =/= impact play. It's also not a blank cheque for ANYTHING to force partner. Can I use a knife? No. Can I use a gun? Hell fucking no. Can I use needles? Branding iron? What about waterboarding? What about just a threat of waterboarding? Anything goes with FORCED scene, right?
It wasn't a forced bi party, it was clothed female naked male. The only stipulation that the males had was to be naked and in a submissive mindset. If a guy was straight, he wouldn't be forced to suck dick. What was said to me, with the domme knowing I was bi, was essentially just "hey, let's do a forced bi scene. I'm sure x would be down if I can find him." I have done a scene at the previous party with her that was, in her words, "forced bi". The vibe in that scene was more degradation, but she did not slap me like she did here. This is what I was expecting when she came up to me about this scene. At no point did she mention impact of any kind. Please do not twist my words and try to tell others that this was a party where men were forced to be bi and this was something to be expected. If I wasn't in the mood to suck ANY dick, that (in theory) would have been okay.
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>Then protect yourself and make it known in advance. 20 years experience and this is your response?!?! **You** got the situation very wrong. **You** repeatedly stated should accept being assaulted. Now that you've discovered **you** were wrong, you change tact and tell them they should do more to protect them self!?!? **You** are unsafe! You practice unsafe BDSM, and you try to convince others that is acceptable. Pretty much everyone else here believes that if you're with someone new, if it hasn't been specifically spoken about, it has not been consented to. I am convinced that those who have to continually tell us how long they've been doing this, are doing so from a position of insecurity. It's utterly meaningless; it's not a sign of knowledge, it doesn't convey experience, or empathy. Just as hanging around a pool hall for twenty years doesn't make anyone a good pool player, so it is with any other avocation. On top of that, you've chosen to ignore our rules. Even though u/Pleasureviews specifically advised you otherwise! Rule 7 applies. Rule 10 applies. Comments removed. 3 day ban issued. ;i; < - - - here's your salamander. Do NOT give this sort of advice here again, and for the love of the Baby Jesus, nobody cares how long you've been doing this.
>We dommes have to find a way to fake force you so you have a good time. >You DO know it was fake, right? Wow, here I am hesitant to explore face slapping whenever new partner wants it because it's fucking scary and can cause myriad of problems (nerve issues, TMJ) and it turns out it's just a fake thing to have more fun! TIL. >Please feel free to dm privately if you have other questions. And that's actually not allowed in here.
She is an abuser and you don’t sound too different. If it was a man the sub would be calling to report it to police . This isn’t ok and you justifying assault is FU
This is entirely unacceptable. I am sorry this happened to you. ✨✨
You don’t happen to be located in Massachusetts do you? I’ve had similar experience with a prominent domme figure here
Noting your update: I love that your play partner feels the same way. This is a huge green flag for them and I’m really happy you have them in your corner!!
Stepping away includes me.
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> it is not consent violation if you didn't say no to face slapping What the fuck? Absence of no doesn't mean yes. What's this backward victim blaming here? >That way you have actually said you can not slap me without verbally saying it He did by not saying yes.
>He did by not saying yes. I agree with this. Unfortunately every community I have ever been part of in my god knows how many years (I'm old) will agree with what you say but nothing happens to the offender. Maybe I've just been part of shitty communities. What I was trying to say very poorly, I might add, is that is it just safer to do this. It's a sentence that makes absolutely clear. It shouldn't be necessary but sadly I think it is. As for the first part I'm not blaming him. I think that not including something in negotiation should be sufficient but I know from experience that it's sometimes not. Not when you report it etc. And that is what I meant by that statement and I should have clarified that. Maybe OP has a good community that will take action. I know mine wouldn't so I don't gamble with that shit.
That's fair, but your reply here shows more light. Like, your first message doesn't have the explanation of your experience with clubs, so it just reads as "it's your own fault", whereas your second message is more of "this isn't your fault, however due to club policies they'll just treat it as if it were your fault because you haven't explicitly said "no" and it's shitty but this is how it often is". This is why I got so defensive (and probably people who downvoted you as well). Thank you for explaining what you meant.
>it is not consent violation if you didn't say no to face slapping. It absolutely is! The difference is, you don't know what consent is. Go and watch that appalling video, where they talk about cups of tea. Don't skip it, there'll be a test. Rule 10 applies. Comment removed.
Hope she's not isolating you .sounds like your partner made it a problem. Would you have had a problem with it had your partner not had a problem? Of course host domne should have gotten your consent, but I find it very interesting what acts people hold as more humiliation than others.
No, we weren't in a relationship outside the scene. Besides this, there was some emotional stuff between us we couldn't see eye to eye on, so we aren't seeing eachother anymore. Regardless, I think this soured both our experiences. EDIT: Wait, you worded your question weird. I didn't have a problem with it because my partner did, I had a problem with it because the domme slapped me out of nowhere. My play partner was there during this and helped to make sure I didn't get consent violated again.
Sorry to hear that. Thanks for being open and communicative. Hopefully when you tell the host domne she will apologize in a respectful way..
I'm not seeing that domme again. Also, I'm 99% positive you edited that original comment. My play partner did nothing wrong in that situation and I'm capable of knowing my own feelings.
I've had this issue with people who identify as "FemDoms" before I've been in the scene for 12 years and I've only ever had issues with people who identify as "FemDoms", as a female identifying person, they treat me better than they treat male identifying people. But as a group they are entitled. They think that everyone should refer to them by their title and they will do whatever they think they should do at the moment... Ladies who just identify as dominant, on the other hand, are wonderful human beings.