Yeah. It's both.
The delusions protect their fragile self image. They lie to themselves and everyone else sometimes intentionally and sometimes not... for the same reason- self protection.
By casting themselves as innocent victims caught in the crosshairs of your… whatever they say is going on with you, at the very least they believe themselves to genuinely be fault-free, or that any of their behavior is justifiable as a response to something that happened that they did the usual catastrophizing / fortune telling for the worst. According to themselves, they are under attack, and their upsets are a byproduct to an external threat that comes in the shape of you.
They do it both ways. Sometimes they try to bend reality through manipulation and lying to archive a goal. Sometimes they just are not aware of the facts and have magical thinking, coming up with conclusions that do not fit reality.
Yea it’s a mix of both. Sometimes due to their emotions they can misinterpret situations and actually believe their version of the truth. And many of their other lies are just them panicking and lying.
theyre delusional. Narcissists are the ones who delude themselves into believing theyre perfect by manipulating those around them. pwBPD cant stand criticism, but its because they KNOW theyre not perfect--where a narcissist is so scared of being imperfect that they deny it, a pwBPD both embraces and destroys themselves for it. Both groups are delusional, and delusion by definition is not the truth/reality. But that means theyre not outright liars.
In fact a pwBPD is much more likely to tell you the truth than a narcissist--pwBPD hate themselves and want you to know it. They seek validation, confirmation that theyre evil monsters but then that hurts so much they lash out and project to deny it. t doesnt help that these disorders can co exist....
but no BPD dont think theyre perfect, they just try to deny theyre imperfect. A narcissist believes their delusions but a pwBPD doesnt know what they believe.
Thanks for bringing up this point. It was so often that I was accused of passing judgment on my ex when we were just having a normal conversation. It could’ve been about anything from what to have for dinner tonight to what to do this weekend. I put so much energy into convincing her I was not judging her it would remove the joy of every day life. Of course I never understood it at the time, and I just thought it was a “her thing” or something that happens in relationships that have been going on for a long time . Little did I know that every single thing that came across her plate ended up being about her and how she related to it.
Seriously, like if I recommended we make a veggie stirfry for dinner, she thought I was telling her she was fat. I just wanted vegetables.
My pwBPD told me that I waited 2 days to tell them my brother died. When I told them 20 min after they got home.
This is why I keep notes and record conversations.
I take screen shot of all the splitting and save them off my phone.
The voice recordings I do the same. Sometimes, when I question myself, it helps to go back and listen to the conversation. Although I know it might not be healthy, I can hear the gaslighting better.
My aunt with NPD/BPD did that to me today, we were having a phone conversation about something personal and she accused me of something I did not say or do, not that it mattered but I told her "It doesn't matter which name I used, this person's behavior and being an hour late to work and leaving early and demanding to get paid for the entire day are unacceptable."
Yes. And from what ive read, they are trying so hard to avoid criticism cause of the crushing weight of how much they already hate themselves so for survival they have to put it on you or anything outside of them. Any bit of criticism they act like you're setting them on fire and will project all of it onto you. And it will look like complete lies or delusions. In my experiences too
I can tell you 100 percent they rewrite things in their mind, sometimes as fast as things happen. Other times over time.
I know my soon to be ex believes what she tells.
One trademark is that liars can't tell the same story twice, my pwBPD can tell the same story years later.
Always works out that I was never as good as I actually am, her family is always perfect.
Mine gets super depressed at times because of things she has done to me. Then she comes out of it and clearly changed her version so I was the bad one, and she is innocent.
They live in a fantasy world and truth is whatever it needs to be at the time for them to 'win'. They have zero integrity and no concept of the feelings or needs of other people. They will call you delusional if you try to hold them accountable or reference any kind of truth that does not fit their narrative.
I can honestly say that I have no idea the answer to this question: "delusion or deceit." My ex with BPD would lean into lies so hard, lies that I called her out on and could prove with outside sources, that it's hard to believe that it's JUST deceit.
They do that with conscious lying as well as confabulation. My ex had such shame about her lying that she would always double down. However, concrete physical evidence would stop her
I think it can be a combination. I saw a video the other day about how they’re not really being manipulative because they’re just trying to prevent abandonment. Um…it’s still manipulation! But I do believe that their “feelings become facts” to them. So I think sometimes they’ll say whatever they need to to get what they want, even if they know it’s not true, but other times I think they 100% believe their delusions.
Ugh YES to the "feelings become facts"! You worded that perfectly. I was so distraught when the pwBPD I was dealing with kept demanding me to accept their feelings as facts and kept accusing me of being dismissive/invalidating. Like I'm sorry, but not all feelings are 'valid' in the sense where they align with what's going on in reality. It was very manipulative and the gaslighting that followed was difficult to process. They really make you feel like you're a terrible person.
They sure do. And convince their friends of the same, which is also painful. And it becomes so hard not to try to explain it all to change their mind…an exercise in futility. I will never, ever let myself get into a relationship with someone like this again. It felt like all of the magical, romantic connection was so worth it…it wasn’t.
Honestly at least for me, it felt magical and romantic because I was being the magical/romantic one - it had nothing to do with them, they were just mirroring me. To this day, I actually don't know his actual personality.....because he's a blank. I was young, not immature, but didn't have experience with this type of cluster B disorder. You feel like you found your twjn flame until the unease/unexplained bad behaviour becomes harder and harder to ignore. My body rejected them very early onto the relationship (no sleep next to them, unease, anxiety, unexplained stress/health issues etc.), but I wanted it to work SO badly that my mind let it go on for an extra 3-4 years.
I feel you on that - never again. My radar is refined af now.
I’m so sorry. It really is wild. Mine definitely was laying the romance on thick. They were very charismatic and I was shocked at how quickly they went from reserved (but charming and charismatic) to “I’ve never loved anyone as much as you.” We’re older, and both had history. I now wonder if the whole “I can’t trust anyone, I don’t let anyone in” with the quick transition to “except you, you’re amazing, I want to be with you forever” was a master love bombing technique. And even as I say it, I wonder if they’re even aware of it or if it’s just part of their whole process as they’ve learned to draw people in over the years. Physicality: I’d left a 25 year low-key 24/7 abusive marriage, and had had a lot of chronic health problems that were resolving. I had noticed recently (after 18 months with my exwBPD) that my health was declining again. Very rapidly. Within days of her being gone, even though I was unbelievably devastated, I started to have more energy, less pain, etc. etc. etc. Our bodies know. Our minds I think sometimes try to protect us from realizing just how much we’re walking on eggshells, all the time, trying so hard both consciously and subconsciously to prevent the next crisis…
Its not one shoes fits all typr of disorder, but thry do have tendencies to lie to avoid taking accountability, and sometimes wheb they have rage cycles they can actually forget some of the things they’ve said.
Don't they say borderline exists on the edge between neurosis and psychosis?
Meaning it's both. They lie, and they are delusional. And we're not sure which is which or when. Maybe they aren't either.
My ex relied heavily on the advice of her sister. She would be shaking her head and saying:
"My sister said this. So that must mean this..."
Sort of like the character in Memento would do. Piecing together clues taken as absolute fact when actually they might be based on false logic or poor memory.
Shaking her head as if fighting off the possibility it could be any other way. As if knowing she wasn't quite sure if she was seeing things the right way, but was trying to convince herself.
The things she accused me of existed in half truths, exaggerated by delusion. Here's a good example:
"You yelled at me!!"
"I did? Really..? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to yell at you..."
(I didn't feel as though I had 'yelled at her'. But I'm the type of person who apologizes to offer support and work together. This is taken as admission of fault - so now we have established that 'I yelled at her'. That's now Fact 1).
"What did I yell?"
"You were complaining about this! And yelling about that! And (long list)."
Some of those things I had been venting about. It was nothing related to her, I was complaining about my job and life situation. I feel I was expressing grief and sadness about a work situation. I do have a tendency to get passionate and raise my voice, but I wasn't 'yelling at her'.
I explain my position on this. She tells me I'm "gaslighting" her. She "remembers everything perfectly" (which clearly she doesn't).
But it was the second part of what I was 'yelling'.
"That second part... That wasn't me. That sounded like... Your father. That wasn't me. I didn't say those things. I don't talk like that. That isn't me."
Then she accused me of gaslighting her again, and flipped over to another accusation.
It goes on and on and on like that for hours. You try and defend yourself, but your defence makes you seem defensive. You get accused of "not taking responsibility" and "gaslighting".
You can't tell if she's outright lying through exaggeration to manipulate you, or if truly she is delusional.
OR, the other possibility, and this is what happened to me:
*Maybe I'm misremembering. Maybe I'm the monster. Maybe I did yell at her. Maybe I have anger issues. Maybe I need therapy. Maybe she's right, and I'm a terrible person.*
That's an awful place to be, trust me. You do not want to go there.
Once you start down that road, once you cede territory... Then it's an onslaught from there. She just keeps adding things to the pile. Now you have anger issues. And memory issues. And now you smoke too much weed you can't remember anything. And those anger issues mean you're avoiding responsibility and being defensive. And that means your immature and unreliable. That means you can't be trusted. That means you are a narcissist. That means she has to get out now, immediately, and run as far away as she can or else she'll be stuck with an abusive narcissist like her mother is with her father. Oh no no no. Get out now.
Every partner ends up becoming John G.
Even after she's killed John G, she starts the cycle again. And again. And again.
It's both. Neurosis and psychosis. It's a diabolical personality disorder.
Honestly? Both. I think they're inherently delusional, but there's also that intentional side of things when it comes to lying. The selective memory? Lmao - watch if you catch them cheating or doing something horrible, how they'll deny it to the point you believe them. And if they actually did it and they still lied, chances are they erased it from their memory because their mind couldn't possibly handle the shame/guilt from that. It's such a mind fuck.
I'm very thankful that at least the pwBPD I was dealing with, whether it has to do with delusion or not, wasn't very bright and can't think for themselves at all. Saved me from any BS claims during the relationship, since they thought I'd always be there
Look up “confabulation.”
I think it’s a mess in there. She knew everything bad she was doing when she was trying to prevent abandonment, but as soon as I stopped walking towards the door, I was equally to blame for “our” issues (cheating/abuse). She would just make shit up to justify her actions and seemed to sincerely believe it. It must be a swirling hurricane of confusion and hell in their minds.
Both- They’re the biggest liars in my experience and sometimes they think they’re perfect.
Yeah. It's both. The delusions protect their fragile self image. They lie to themselves and everyone else sometimes intentionally and sometimes not... for the same reason- self protection.
By casting themselves as innocent victims caught in the crosshairs of your… whatever they say is going on with you, at the very least they believe themselves to genuinely be fault-free, or that any of their behavior is justifiable as a response to something that happened that they did the usual catastrophizing / fortune telling for the worst. According to themselves, they are under attack, and their upsets are a byproduct to an external threat that comes in the shape of you.
Damn, I needed to read this
This about sums it up. Well said.
They are compulsive liers. Mine fucked me over since the beginning, glad i listened to my gut.
They do it both ways. Sometimes they try to bend reality through manipulation and lying to archive a goal. Sometimes they just are not aware of the facts and have magical thinking, coming up with conclusions that do not fit reality.
Yea it’s a mix of both. Sometimes due to their emotions they can misinterpret situations and actually believe their version of the truth. And many of their other lies are just them panicking and lying.
theyre delusional. Narcissists are the ones who delude themselves into believing theyre perfect by manipulating those around them. pwBPD cant stand criticism, but its because they KNOW theyre not perfect--where a narcissist is so scared of being imperfect that they deny it, a pwBPD both embraces and destroys themselves for it. Both groups are delusional, and delusion by definition is not the truth/reality. But that means theyre not outright liars. In fact a pwBPD is much more likely to tell you the truth than a narcissist--pwBPD hate themselves and want you to know it. They seek validation, confirmation that theyre evil monsters but then that hurts so much they lash out and project to deny it. t doesnt help that these disorders can co exist.... but no BPD dont think theyre perfect, they just try to deny theyre imperfect. A narcissist believes their delusions but a pwBPD doesnt know what they believe.
Thanks for bringing up this point. It was so often that I was accused of passing judgment on my ex when we were just having a normal conversation. It could’ve been about anything from what to have for dinner tonight to what to do this weekend. I put so much energy into convincing her I was not judging her it would remove the joy of every day life. Of course I never understood it at the time, and I just thought it was a “her thing” or something that happens in relationships that have been going on for a long time . Little did I know that every single thing that came across her plate ended up being about her and how she related to it. Seriously, like if I recommended we make a veggie stirfry for dinner, she thought I was telling her she was fat. I just wanted vegetables.
My pwBPD told me that I waited 2 days to tell them my brother died. When I told them 20 min after they got home. This is why I keep notes and record conversations.
That’s a big part of why I kept to text, though that caused big problems, so I had a record of what each of us said, bc she’d make shit up.
I take screen shot of all the splitting and save them off my phone. The voice recordings I do the same. Sometimes, when I question myself, it helps to go back and listen to the conversation. Although I know it might not be healthy, I can hear the gaslighting better.
Yeah, going through shit is painful af.
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My aunt with NPD/BPD did that to me today, we were having a phone conversation about something personal and she accused me of something I did not say or do, not that it mattered but I told her "It doesn't matter which name I used, this person's behavior and being an hour late to work and leaving early and demanding to get paid for the entire day are unacceptable."
Yes. And from what ive read, they are trying so hard to avoid criticism cause of the crushing weight of how much they already hate themselves so for survival they have to put it on you or anything outside of them. Any bit of criticism they act like you're setting them on fire and will project all of it onto you. And it will look like complete lies or delusions. In my experiences too
https://www.reddit.com/r/BPDlovedones/comments/1dh68fq/comment/l8uqvbb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I can tell you 100 percent they rewrite things in their mind, sometimes as fast as things happen. Other times over time. I know my soon to be ex believes what she tells. One trademark is that liars can't tell the same story twice, my pwBPD can tell the same story years later. Always works out that I was never as good as I actually am, her family is always perfect. Mine gets super depressed at times because of things she has done to me. Then she comes out of it and clearly changed her version so I was the bad one, and she is innocent.
They live in a fantasy world and truth is whatever it needs to be at the time for them to 'win'. They have zero integrity and no concept of the feelings or needs of other people. They will call you delusional if you try to hold them accountable or reference any kind of truth that does not fit their narrative.
The latter definitely has truth to it…..
Yes
I can honestly say that I have no idea the answer to this question: "delusion or deceit." My ex with BPD would lean into lies so hard, lies that I called her out on and could prove with outside sources, that it's hard to believe that it's JUST deceit.
They do that with conscious lying as well as confabulation. My ex had such shame about her lying that she would always double down. However, concrete physical evidence would stop her
I think it can be a combination. I saw a video the other day about how they’re not really being manipulative because they’re just trying to prevent abandonment. Um…it’s still manipulation! But I do believe that their “feelings become facts” to them. So I think sometimes they’ll say whatever they need to to get what they want, even if they know it’s not true, but other times I think they 100% believe their delusions.
Ugh YES to the "feelings become facts"! You worded that perfectly. I was so distraught when the pwBPD I was dealing with kept demanding me to accept their feelings as facts and kept accusing me of being dismissive/invalidating. Like I'm sorry, but not all feelings are 'valid' in the sense where they align with what's going on in reality. It was very manipulative and the gaslighting that followed was difficult to process. They really make you feel like you're a terrible person.
They sure do. And convince their friends of the same, which is also painful. And it becomes so hard not to try to explain it all to change their mind…an exercise in futility. I will never, ever let myself get into a relationship with someone like this again. It felt like all of the magical, romantic connection was so worth it…it wasn’t.
Honestly at least for me, it felt magical and romantic because I was being the magical/romantic one - it had nothing to do with them, they were just mirroring me. To this day, I actually don't know his actual personality.....because he's a blank. I was young, not immature, but didn't have experience with this type of cluster B disorder. You feel like you found your twjn flame until the unease/unexplained bad behaviour becomes harder and harder to ignore. My body rejected them very early onto the relationship (no sleep next to them, unease, anxiety, unexplained stress/health issues etc.), but I wanted it to work SO badly that my mind let it go on for an extra 3-4 years. I feel you on that - never again. My radar is refined af now.
I’m so sorry. It really is wild. Mine definitely was laying the romance on thick. They were very charismatic and I was shocked at how quickly they went from reserved (but charming and charismatic) to “I’ve never loved anyone as much as you.” We’re older, and both had history. I now wonder if the whole “I can’t trust anyone, I don’t let anyone in” with the quick transition to “except you, you’re amazing, I want to be with you forever” was a master love bombing technique. And even as I say it, I wonder if they’re even aware of it or if it’s just part of their whole process as they’ve learned to draw people in over the years. Physicality: I’d left a 25 year low-key 24/7 abusive marriage, and had had a lot of chronic health problems that were resolving. I had noticed recently (after 18 months with my exwBPD) that my health was declining again. Very rapidly. Within days of her being gone, even though I was unbelievably devastated, I started to have more energy, less pain, etc. etc. etc. Our bodies know. Our minds I think sometimes try to protect us from realizing just how much we’re walking on eggshells, all the time, trying so hard both consciously and subconsciously to prevent the next crisis…
Its not one shoes fits all typr of disorder, but thry do have tendencies to lie to avoid taking accountability, and sometimes wheb they have rage cycles they can actually forget some of the things they’ve said.
Don't they say borderline exists on the edge between neurosis and psychosis? Meaning it's both. They lie, and they are delusional. And we're not sure which is which or when. Maybe they aren't either. My ex relied heavily on the advice of her sister. She would be shaking her head and saying: "My sister said this. So that must mean this..." Sort of like the character in Memento would do. Piecing together clues taken as absolute fact when actually they might be based on false logic or poor memory. Shaking her head as if fighting off the possibility it could be any other way. As if knowing she wasn't quite sure if she was seeing things the right way, but was trying to convince herself. The things she accused me of existed in half truths, exaggerated by delusion. Here's a good example: "You yelled at me!!" "I did? Really..? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to yell at you..." (I didn't feel as though I had 'yelled at her'. But I'm the type of person who apologizes to offer support and work together. This is taken as admission of fault - so now we have established that 'I yelled at her'. That's now Fact 1). "What did I yell?" "You were complaining about this! And yelling about that! And (long list)." Some of those things I had been venting about. It was nothing related to her, I was complaining about my job and life situation. I feel I was expressing grief and sadness about a work situation. I do have a tendency to get passionate and raise my voice, but I wasn't 'yelling at her'. I explain my position on this. She tells me I'm "gaslighting" her. She "remembers everything perfectly" (which clearly she doesn't). But it was the second part of what I was 'yelling'. "That second part... That wasn't me. That sounded like... Your father. That wasn't me. I didn't say those things. I don't talk like that. That isn't me." Then she accused me of gaslighting her again, and flipped over to another accusation. It goes on and on and on like that for hours. You try and defend yourself, but your defence makes you seem defensive. You get accused of "not taking responsibility" and "gaslighting". You can't tell if she's outright lying through exaggeration to manipulate you, or if truly she is delusional. OR, the other possibility, and this is what happened to me: *Maybe I'm misremembering. Maybe I'm the monster. Maybe I did yell at her. Maybe I have anger issues. Maybe I need therapy. Maybe she's right, and I'm a terrible person.* That's an awful place to be, trust me. You do not want to go there. Once you start down that road, once you cede territory... Then it's an onslaught from there. She just keeps adding things to the pile. Now you have anger issues. And memory issues. And now you smoke too much weed you can't remember anything. And those anger issues mean you're avoiding responsibility and being defensive. And that means your immature and unreliable. That means you can't be trusted. That means you are a narcissist. That means she has to get out now, immediately, and run as far away as she can or else she'll be stuck with an abusive narcissist like her mother is with her father. Oh no no no. Get out now. Every partner ends up becoming John G. Even after she's killed John G, she starts the cycle again. And again. And again. It's both. Neurosis and psychosis. It's a diabolical personality disorder.
Honestly? Both. I think they're inherently delusional, but there's also that intentional side of things when it comes to lying. The selective memory? Lmao - watch if you catch them cheating or doing something horrible, how they'll deny it to the point you believe them. And if they actually did it and they still lied, chances are they erased it from their memory because their mind couldn't possibly handle the shame/guilt from that. It's such a mind fuck. I'm very thankful that at least the pwBPD I was dealing with, whether it has to do with delusion or not, wasn't very bright and can't think for themselves at all. Saved me from any BS claims during the relationship, since they thought I'd always be there
Look up “confabulation.” I think it’s a mess in there. She knew everything bad she was doing when she was trying to prevent abandonment, but as soon as I stopped walking towards the door, I was equally to blame for “our” issues (cheating/abuse). She would just make shit up to justify her actions and seemed to sincerely believe it. It must be a swirling hurricane of confusion and hell in their minds.