I don't really think so. The problem is they don't get the gop votes without the gop policy and that's a non starter for most people. I don't think people in that party realize how bad the damage from Dobbs is gonna be.
And that assumes they want to dump Trump. Most of the people who would have done that have already left the party.
Their whole plan during Obama’s presidency was kneecapping Obama. Now, it’s the same with Biden. They don’t need policy to get the core voters’ votes. The centrists and independents, on the other hand…
Rs do have policy! 1) exclude non straight Christian whites from society (ie ban gay marriage, make Christianity taught in schools, deport illegals) 2) cut regulations and taxes on big business.
That's pretty much it. They sell 1) by saying there's a war on Christianity, and that the country is going to be punished by God if we don't get it together. They sell 2) by saying the Govt is incompetent and it's rules make no sense but if we allowed businesses to do whatever they wanted profits would be so highly they'd give everyone raises out of the abundance. The best liberal counter to the deregulation bros is to ask what happened to the profits that followed Trumps tax cuts, or the profits that followed Covid spending? None of that resulted in a raise for working class, so why would profits from deregulation?
They absolutely have a plan, and it’s to stay in power by any means necessary. There’s no way the GOP puts all their eggs in the basket of a man who, constitutionally, can only serve one more term. If he gets reelected and implements Porject 2025, and with the stranglehold his family has on the RNC and the complicity of his cronies in the House and Senate, he won’t be leaving after four more years. Laws be damned, he wipes his ass with them and they don’t care. They love it.
He almost did it on Jan 6, and that was a poorly put together plan, they’ve had 4 years to put together a plan and vet people they can trust and who they can’t, this is how democracies around the world have had coups
And Biden’s justice dept. had 4 years to press charges and arrest him but they waited till the last minute and ohh look. His cronies he installed in the judicial system are playing the delay card.
Weird. It didn’t take them 4 years to investigate Snowden but when a politician is the one stealing state secrets and exposing them suddenly “investigations take time”
They had the jan 6 trials going like less than a year later. Trump has been mired in court cases ever since he left office. What are you talking about?
They have a comprehensive plan this time, it's published on their website and the supreme Court just gave the complete ok to it.
Please go watch Jon Olivers episode on Project 2025.
>The problem is they don't get the gop votes without the gop policy
I see this sentiment alot and I don't think it's wrong across the board. But I think many pundits completely overvalue the bulk of voters knowledge and understanding of policy. Said another way, if voters cared about policy to the extent these pundits think they did, we would be electing ugly, uncharismatic, totally truthful, policy wonks. We don't.
But I also don't think you're wrong: they wouldn't get GOP votes. But not because of the policy for the average voter, but because of the *donor-class* not getting the separate set of policy that they care about (lowered taxes and deregulation)... and then not donating.
They have had plenty of opportunities to dump trump cleanly and didn’t. They don’t want to drop trump. For whatever reason he has everyone in the party by the balls. Probably kompromat thanks to the RNC hacks that never saw the light of day.
I don't think it's because he owns them. I think at the base level it's because they like how he allows them to think. He allows in their heads all the racist sexist hell pick an ist or an ism and he makes them feel it's ok. That's a core that before Trump had to hide a hell of a lot more than they do now.
They don't want to dump Trump because he's good for their brand. Somehow, he is their clear favorite, and just like the Democrats, keeping their side in power is more important to them than the good of the country.
He started the switch when Obama was elected. Perhaps a bit before. I think he still holds many liberal positions. He just has to cater to the base. Even during the debate, he made it known that he’s at odds with many on abortion. I,also don’t think he ever wants war. He’s a peace through strength and diplomacy type.
Trumps biggest issue is himself. He just can’t work with people. He wants to strong-arm and destroy anyone in his way. That’s how he led his businesses. Those sort of tactics do not work in Washington. Senators especially understand that he’s there for 4 years, they can be in office for decades and won’t work with a president that will not kiss their asses a little. Definitely not Trumps style.
With a squelching sound, the amorphous green mass came to the podium. "My fellow Americans, it is my great honor to be selected as your first non-human president." As the Gelatinous Organism of Orifaces, or GOO, became president, a new era of Earth history began.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist).
Coming this fall to a theater near you : Eddie Murphy, in the role he was born to play. The politician the world didn't know it needed. "Goo Ni GooGoo".
Rated R for Republican.
You're not wrong,
The amount of people that just started attacking AOC the second she was in office because she wasn't a magic Communist pill with one rep was idiotic...
I hate the fact that she ended up getting close to Nancy P, but I can see why it happened
Demanding things which never happen is so much easier than working on making things actually happen. But also appears so much bigger and full of potential compared to the compromises of reality.
Yep!
Remember the Tea party? Bunch of nuts who rejected every R politician because they were "RHINOS", which basically meant "they haven't enacted every conservative policy I want". They ignored actual reality of politics and were just pissed their way wasn't happening. Then you had Trump mania, which was driven by a general attitude that establishment Rs aren't getting it done because they just don't want too. Again, ignoring realities of our political system and demanding everything be how you want.
Well, that's the far left. They don't care about realities of getting 51 votes, they want what they want and they want it now and if you haven't gotten them their free healthcare and free college and outlawed billionaires after 2 weeks in office you're basically a fraud who needs to be primaried
He would get as much done as he has as a Senator. People on the Hill like Bernie, but they don’t really respect him., his power comes from a base that will never have much sway. Democrats consider them a necessary voting block, so they say and do the minimum. Republicans use them to attract voters that hate change.
A lot of trump voters would switch, a lot of vbnw Clinton Stan's would throw a fit and maybe refuse to vote.
A number of younger people would be energized.
And a lot of us would still think too little too late
I think they are in an awkward position with Harris. That recent popularity video Beau did, had her much higher than I expected. If she continued the path Biden admin has taken, I think for the most part she could be effective, I’m just not sure she has any more perceived charisma than Biden did last night.
California has some significant problems that would be spun against Newsome whether or not they're his fault. He's excellent at debate because his rote memory is good and he brings the receipts, but it takes more than that.
Bernie is the far left…. FAR/extreme is where GoP went w/ Trump…. i wouldn’t want to swing too far either way …. speaking as a Dem voter.
i would love to have Buttigieg as the 2028 prez
I feel you can provide valid criticism of any politician due to the nature of the job but I feel like this one doesn't make any sense for Bernie. Dudes filthy rich and has actually been getting Biden to lean more and more progressive. If he was in it for the money he's already right where he needs to be.
Then why didn't he stick to his "principles" and speak out against the party blatantly fixing the race against him? You know what they say about people who get rich in politics right?it didn't happen due to his senators salary.
Note this is purely opinion, but I think it's because that's how politics works, it's all favor for favor and coalition building. He could either press the issue hard and be on the outs with the democratic leadership and the current administration or he could toe the party line and keep his access to Biden which in hindsight appears to have been the right choice. If you wanted to make some further conjecture you could argue he was more worried about results than personal success and that actually would make me respect him more.
Are we pretending Biden is actually in charge? Kamala agrees with Bernie a lot. Doesn't mean she'll follow him over her donors.
Bernie's good guy public image is a complete joke. He will say something is immoral and vote on it when the right earmarks are in place.
He's one of the most powerful and influential people in the party while being totally neutered. At least he got a dope house out of bending over. That sounds like personal success over results to me.
I'm sorry, but if you're gonna use the Kamala Harris is puppeting the president conspiracy I don't think we can have a productive conversation. Your entitled to your opinion on it but I don't see us coming to a middle ground and having a rational discussion about the matter.
He's released his tax files... Like there are news articles about it. You can simply search it in your favorite search engine.
You could probably search it on Twitter...
Right leaning Christian independents like Kinzinger might, even he sees that the rights policies are antithetical to democracy. And Project 2025 will work indepently of Trump and the new candidate would be beholden to it and the Christian nationalists who authored it.
Trump is a symptom of the disease not the disease it self.
Last sentence is very well said.
I would love it if Trump himself was our only problem. It isn't. It's the 30% of votes that truly want Christian nationalism, bans on gay marriage, bans on abortion with no exception ect, and the other 19ish% of voters who don't want all that but still vote R because right wing media has convinced them Ds are worse.
We simply have too many people that want a Christian monoculture, too much right wing propaganda
Agree, she would pull independents and anyone on the fence. But no way trump drops out. He'd run as an independent if the GOP dumped him, but they won't, he would beat them down with insults and lies.
It’s completely insane that after January 6th they chose to stick with Trump. Ask yourself; what the Fuck happened to Mike Pence ! The people who are left wouldn’t even support Nikey Hailey. They never supported Liz Cheney. They maintain the big lie.
I was a life long Republican, some of you might hate me for that; but I’m NOT MAGA. No big lie; never. Proud RINO, Liz Cheney Republican. Think Lincoln, Reagan.
Never voted for Trump; Libertarian the first time, Biden the second time, will support Biden again. He belongs in a retirement village but he’s the key to democracy !
Depends on the candidate. If it’s a Trump sycophant then no, if it’s a moderate, I think a shit ton of independent and democratic voters would switch. I would for sure
Problem is that like 80% of the people in the USA have never heard of Project 2025, and even less understand that the Republican party is basically just a front for Christian Nationalism now, and far far less than that understand that Christian Nationalism is just as repugnant and disturbingly similar to White Nationalism, which is just as repugnant and very similar to the Nazi party.
It used to be you could be a moderate and make a choice between the two parties based on the totality of what was happening in the world and which candidate was the best of two bad choices, or which party was currently going to maybe handle the situation best. Now if you are a moderate and you vote for the Republican party you are tossing out country in the toilet no matter who is running... But the issue is nobody realizes this.
you realize project 2025 is not a GOP position right?
it's a plan drafted by a right wing think tank (that releases something really similar every 4 years)
so yeah. it absolutely does dependant on who is elected.
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/BeauOfTheFifthColumn/comments/1dqc90s/comment/lb48gss/)
>you realize project 2025 is not a GOP position right?
Damn, they could've fooled me!
I’m registered as an independent. I have absolutely never voted republican. The reason I registered as an independent when I turned 18 is because I didn’t want to be “locked” into a party. I do my due diligence and research every candidate running for things and vote based on their actual stances of policies, not what they say their stances are, but how they’ve actually voted on those issues in the passed.
It’s honestly sad that you think people who vote independent aren’t very intelligent when in reality most people I’ve met who are independent voters do the same thing I do to decide who to vote for. I don’t believe in “party loyalty”, I believe in the right person for the job. Unfortunately in America the Republican Party is completely unhinged right now and toeing the line of straight up genocide on some topics (see trans issues) so in the 10+ years I’ve been able to vote I’ve never voted for them, and I vote for presidential all the way down to local stuff. Third party candidates simply will not get enough support to win an election at every level of government, mostly due to party loyalty, so voting for them is throwing my vote away.
Not sure why you think independent voters are dumb but we’re not the enemy you seem to think we are
You aren't an independent voter if you only vote D. You're a D that is registered as independent because you are willing to consider Rs. But as you say, you never vote for Rs because you disagree with their policies... because you're a Democrat, not an independent.
When OP says "independent voters", he means people what cast votes for Rs and Ds depending on the candidates
If there was a republican that was more centrist who I thought would do a good job I would absolutely vote for them. I’m not a democrat I’m an independent. I don’t vote based on party stances I vote based on independent stances and how they’ve voted on policies in the past.
I cannot make this clear enough I’m not a democrat. If there was what I deemed an acceptable candidate from the republicans I would vote for them. What you’re saying makes a much sense as saying that because I’m engaged to a man that I’m not actually bisexual I’m straight…
I feel the same way about party line voting. it's lazy pie in the sky nonsense.
but really you get way more change by putting pressure on sitting representatives than by selecting their replacements.
Means they don't like registering with a party, so they stay independent and vote for who they think is best. That's been Dems or Independents for a while now if they have at least 2 brain cells to rub together.
I think this is a semantics battle about what "independent" means.
There's the literal meaning of "no registered as a D or R", but there's the conceptual practical meaning of "sometimes votes R, sometimes D, because I don't agree with either platform".
I think the guy you're arguing with is talking about that second kind, ie "people that vote for both are idiots". You're defending the practice of registering Independent but voting D. Most of us would just call that voter a D as practically there's no difference
Probably so, but calling them a D is going to be incorrect when discussing things like polling and likely voters, etc., because that's not how they're counted.
No one is dumber than the people blindly supporting one side because they feel like the smartest person in the room. Independents are the only reasonable portion of the electorate
also the largest portion of the electorate.
this asshole just called 70% of american stupid (only about 30% of registered voters are registered as dems)
and that has been the biggest issue with Dems lately. they can't get people to vote for their candidates through attraction, so they rely on "shame" 🤷♂️
No one on the GOP with enough spine to manage the alt right. Find a younger moderate with a real message or plan, stop trying stomp all over peoples rights because you dont like them, get back towards the functional middle and you might have a shot. trumps enablers wouldnt have enough support
If Trump could be gone and replaced by a non-MAGA Republican, which seems to no longer exist, I believe it would be an easy win for the GOP. But not going to happen.
Yeah there are no non-MAGAs politicians left. Moderate Rs are willing to vote for Trump, but MAGA voters aren't willing to vote for moderates anymore. They are all or nothing voters captured in a cult of personality
For that reason, I don't think a non-Trump R would win this cycle. Sire, they'd get moderates to vote for them over Joe, BUT I think the MAGA protest no votes would outweigh that.
no… MAGA voting base… the GoP fed this base and grew it… now they won’t be able to live without it.
have fun w/ ur angry - loud - gun crazed - conspiracy - christian base
I genuinely don't believe that the GOP has a chance without Trump. They hitched their horse King Mierdas's wagon and now they're stuck till he retires or dies.
They might get a decently higher percentage of the independent vote but they'll lose too much of the MAGA vote out of protest if Trump is forcibly dropped. Down Ballot races, where independents can't be trusted to simply vote down the party line, will also be massively impacted.
Yeah, they do. I say that though less confidently than I would have before the debate. Biden had a bad debate, but he's having a hell of a bounce back from it. A moderate Republican would still be a problem for him. Throw a "moderate" Republican like Kasich or Liz Cheney in at the eleventh hour and they can present themselves as the answer to all America's ills. They'll just talk about Reagan a lot, and uninformed voters think Reagan was both a movie star and a great President. We want Biden running against Trump.
They'd get a lot more independents, not necessarily a swarm. Problem would because of the cult of personality currently fueling much of the GOP base a lot of them would stay home on election day, sulking in their diapers (proudly), so Biden would still do well.
Not predictable. Independents vote for the person, not their party.
If the GOP would, or could, offer a candidate that's not a MAGAt, this could happen. A Trump clone, No, I don't believe so.
Most of us who are not members of either political gang tend to vote for people who support the country first, not themselves or their gang (party). Republicans are the worst, but they aren't all MAGAts, Trump calls them RHINOs, I call them good Republicans. I might vote for a RHINO. Not likely, but maybe.
I think that if ether side dropped a candidate it would greatly improve their chances of winning. Right now the old douche or shit sandwich scenario is in full play.
Depends who. Only one I see as having a shot would be Paul Ryan. His never Trumper stance won’t play well with the base, of course, but that also makes him a white knight for the GOP and a possible pathway back to saner times. No, I think we’re more likely to see a Trump/Tucker ticket than to see one without Trump.
I suspect so. If the GOP nominated a younger candidate, I think it is possible that a substantial portion of "independent" voters concerned about Biden's age would just blindly vote for the younger person.
You mean if a normal person ran and was closer to center right. One that wasn’t a felon, wasn’t mean spirited, and didn’t have the baggage (read that how you will) would conservativeish people vote that way… yes.
It greatly depends on the candidate. If John Sununu were on the Republican ticket, yes. Maybe even Chris Christy. Christy wouldn’t be acceptable to the party though. I’m pretty interested to see Trumps pick for VP. That might sway some voters. You aren’t going to get a great answer to your question on Reddit. There really isn’t an independent sub that’s not crawling with either dems or republicans.
I think if the GOP was forced to replace Trump, they would still look great. But, Trump was voted as the GOP candidate, ripping the nomination from him would be anti-democratic.
Voters know that, this cycle, Republicans held primaries and Democrats didn't. One of the big advantages Republicans have this cycle is they used voting to determine their candidate, they trusted in the Democratic process. To betray that now, it would be hard to swallow.
There was a primary for the democrat nominee. What do you mean the democrats didn’t have a primary?
[Here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries)
You gotta admit, though, it was pretty weak. The Dems have this notion ( albeit well-founded) that you never want to turn away from the incumbent advantage. Personally, I think using this heuristic in the face of overwhelmingly bad polling and the oldest person to ever seek the presidency and an economy that is crippling most ordinary Americans, and during a major right-wing populist uprising is just stupid. But, conventional wisdom. . . Anyway, Biden didn't get anything remotely akin to a robust primary challenge, and I think a lot of the Democratic coalition is pissed about it.
I don't know who a strong replacement would be at this point, but if they don't find someone quickly, Trump will be elected in November. This is a terrible situation. This is our last Independence Day without a king/dictatorship. The Dems have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are too weak to do what needs to be done to protect the country from an authoritarian coup. We are screwed.
Biden was the only name on the ballot for many of the primaries. There are multiple primaries, not just one. You can't just declare "primary" and change that.
Out of the fifty states Biden was the only name on maybe five, all deep red states except New Jersey. Maryanne Williamson and Dean Phillips were on the vast majority of the ballots. The primary was held.
Fair enough, as long as we agree that Florida and North Carolina are also deep red states this election cycle. But, that is kind of a strange qualifier, since most states are deep red this cycle.
I think any reasonable Republican would trounce Biden at this point. The ONLY reason it’s close is that most people don’t want to vote for Trump.
But engine in the GOP establishment is afraid of Trump. He’s proven over and over again that he can torch any Republican’s career at will.
I think you are right. I bet if Romney or Liz Cheney declared themselves a Democrat and challenged Biden at the convention right now, they'd probably get the nomination just because of how terrified people are of another Trump administration and how shakey they are with the prospects of Biden being able to win.
That would be a definite maybe. But I personally will probably wait about 10 years before I vate Republican again. Trump has really fucked up the whole party. I would rather wait till the MAGATS are all out of the picture. It would have to be a stellar individual to convince me.
Whoever the GOP choose regardless of Trump will implement project 2025. There is no difference between GOP candidates at this point. They’re all ‘MAGA.
As an independent, there's literally no way for me to vote red for the forseeable future.
I've effectively gone all blue. I'd rather blue squander all my money on public services and there is a place for me to live than for red to take all my money for themselves and stick me in a concentration camp.
Nobody. What Dems don't understand is that Trump isn't some sort of far-right extremist who only Nazis like. He is a centrist with policies that appeal to both the right AND the left. A lot of his support comes from former Democrats who are sick and tired of DNC extremism.
If Trump were replaced by almost any other Republican Biden would win by 10 points due to lack of moderare support.
If the GOP tried to remove Trump, his people would revolt, so the slight number of moderates gained wouldn’t be worth it. However, Dems have much less obedience to Biden, and Biden is astronomically more likely to step aside for the good of others, so I could see it working much better for them
We've seen the GOP clown car and every clown in it. They suck! Dems are not happy because Biden is old and they can't get around that but there's an equally divided, scary bunch of democratic amusement park mascots that we don't want either. It's just the GOP has been such a dumpster fire.
I don't really think so. The problem is they don't get the gop votes without the gop policy and that's a non starter for most people. I don't think people in that party realize how bad the damage from Dobbs is gonna be. And that assumes they want to dump Trump. Most of the people who would have done that have already left the party.
I don’t think Trump mentioned any piece of future legislation in the debate, they have no plan.
Their whole plan during Obama’s presidency was kneecapping Obama. Now, it’s the same with Biden. They don’t need policy to get the core voters’ votes. The centrists and independents, on the other hand…
Rs do have policy! 1) exclude non straight Christian whites from society (ie ban gay marriage, make Christianity taught in schools, deport illegals) 2) cut regulations and taxes on big business. That's pretty much it. They sell 1) by saying there's a war on Christianity, and that the country is going to be punished by God if we don't get it together. They sell 2) by saying the Govt is incompetent and it's rules make no sense but if we allowed businesses to do whatever they wanted profits would be so highly they'd give everyone raises out of the abundance. The best liberal counter to the deregulation bros is to ask what happened to the profits that followed Trumps tax cuts, or the profits that followed Covid spending? None of that resulted in a raise for working class, so why would profits from deregulation?
They removed such plans from their website if I remember correctly.
No, it's extremely openly on their project 2025 website. You should watch Jon Olivers special on it.
Project 2025 is their plan. Srsly. They're not even hiding it.
They absolutely have a plan, and it’s to stay in power by any means necessary. There’s no way the GOP puts all their eggs in the basket of a man who, constitutionally, can only serve one more term. If he gets reelected and implements Porject 2025, and with the stranglehold his family has on the RNC and the complicity of his cronies in the House and Senate, he won’t be leaving after four more years. Laws be damned, he wipes his ass with them and they don’t care. They love it.
This is just not true.
He almost did it on Jan 6, and that was a poorly put together plan, they’ve had 4 years to put together a plan and vet people they can trust and who they can’t, this is how democracies around the world have had coups
And Biden’s justice dept. had 4 years to press charges and arrest him but they waited till the last minute and ohh look. His cronies he installed in the judicial system are playing the delay card.
Investigations take time, court cases take time
Excuses take seconds to write.
Weird. It didn’t take them 4 years to investigate Snowden but when a politician is the one stealing state secrets and exposing them suddenly “investigations take time”
They had the jan 6 trials going like less than a year later. Trump has been mired in court cases ever since he left office. What are you talking about?
The plain is to change the direction the Biden administration had us heading to.
They have a comprehensive plan this time, it's published on their website and the supreme Court just gave the complete ok to it. Please go watch Jon Olivers episode on Project 2025.
>The problem is they don't get the gop votes without the gop policy I see this sentiment alot and I don't think it's wrong across the board. But I think many pundits completely overvalue the bulk of voters knowledge and understanding of policy. Said another way, if voters cared about policy to the extent these pundits think they did, we would be electing ugly, uncharismatic, totally truthful, policy wonks. We don't. But I also don't think you're wrong: they wouldn't get GOP votes. But not because of the policy for the average voter, but because of the *donor-class* not getting the separate set of policy that they care about (lowered taxes and deregulation)... and then not donating.
They have had plenty of opportunities to dump trump cleanly and didn’t. They don’t want to drop trump. For whatever reason he has everyone in the party by the balls. Probably kompromat thanks to the RNC hacks that never saw the light of day.
I don't think it's because he owns them. I think at the base level it's because they like how he allows them to think. He allows in their heads all the racist sexist hell pick an ist or an ism and he makes them feel it's ok. That's a core that before Trump had to hide a hell of a lot more than they do now.
They don't want to dump Trump because he's good for their brand. Somehow, he is their clear favorite, and just like the Democrats, keeping their side in power is more important to them than the good of the country.
Not to sound uneducated, but wasn't trump a die hard democrat until he ran for office the first time?
He may have been. I don't know. It seems very much like him to switch allegiances for personal benefit, though.
He started the switch when Obama was elected. Perhaps a bit before. I think he still holds many liberal positions. He just has to cater to the base. Even during the debate, he made it known that he’s at odds with many on abortion. I,also don’t think he ever wants war. He’s a peace through strength and diplomacy type. Trumps biggest issue is himself. He just can’t work with people. He wants to strong-arm and destroy anyone in his way. That’s how he led his businesses. Those sort of tactics do not work in Washington. Senators especially understand that he’s there for 4 years, they can be in office for decades and won’t work with a president that will not kiss their asses a little. Definitely not Trumps style.
With a squelching sound, the amorphous green mass came to the podium. "My fellow Americans, it is my great honor to be selected as your first non-human president." As the Gelatinous Organism of Orifaces, or GOO, became president, a new era of Earth history began. (Sorry, I couldn't resist).
Strange gelatinous goo lying in ponds handing out plasma pulse rifles is no basis for a system of government.
Violence is inherent in the gelatin.
I, for one, welcome our new GOO overlords
“Gooning for Goo!”
“I’m Gaga for GOO!”
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical gelatinous organism!
Coming this fall to a theater near you : Eddie Murphy, in the role he was born to play. The politician the world didn't know it needed. "Goo Ni GooGoo". Rated R for Republican.
If the Dems switched to Bernie.. what happens?
It would take less then 12 months for the people loving Bernie the most to become his greatest haters.
You're not wrong, The amount of people that just started attacking AOC the second she was in office because she wasn't a magic Communist pill with one rep was idiotic... I hate the fact that she ended up getting close to Nancy P, but I can see why it happened
Demanding things which never happen is so much easier than working on making things actually happen. But also appears so much bigger and full of potential compared to the compromises of reality.
Yep! Remember the Tea party? Bunch of nuts who rejected every R politician because they were "RHINOS", which basically meant "they haven't enacted every conservative policy I want". They ignored actual reality of politics and were just pissed their way wasn't happening. Then you had Trump mania, which was driven by a general attitude that establishment Rs aren't getting it done because they just don't want too. Again, ignoring realities of our political system and demanding everything be how you want. Well, that's the far left. They don't care about realities of getting 51 votes, they want what they want and they want it now and if you haven't gotten them their free healthcare and free college and outlawed billionaires after 2 weeks in office you're basically a fraud who needs to be primaried
We lose, bigly.
He would get as much done as he has as a Senator. People on the Hill like Bernie, but they don’t really respect him., his power comes from a base that will never have much sway. Democrats consider them a necessary voting block, so they say and do the minimum. Republicans use them to attract voters that hate change.
A lot of trump voters would switch, a lot of vbnw Clinton Stan's would throw a fit and maybe refuse to vote. A number of younger people would be energized. And a lot of us would still think too little too late
If the Dems replaced Biden, it would be with Harris
I think they are in an awkward position with Harris. That recent popularity video Beau did, had her much higher than I expected. If she continued the path Biden admin has taken, I think for the most part she could be effective, I’m just not sure she has any more perceived charisma than Biden did last night.
She could be the Hawk Tuah candidate.
No it would probably be Newsom or Whitmer
Tell me you don't understand how the Democratic Party works without telling me you don't understand how the Democratic Party works.
California has some significant problems that would be spun against Newsome whether or not they're his fault. He's excellent at debate because his rote memory is good and he brings the receipts, but it takes more than that.
I feel that Bernie is like a dog chasing a car. He can chase it all day long, but wouldn't know what to do with it if he caught it.
Bernie is the far left…. FAR/extreme is where GoP went w/ Trump…. i wouldn’t want to swing too far either way …. speaking as a Dem voter. i would love to have Buttigieg as the 2028 prez
Bernie is just slightly left of center anywhere else in the western world tho.
I don’t even consider Bernie to be left of center on the international scale
You're a Republican.
Free healthcare and student loan forgiveness is not extreme left 😂
Bernie would take them until the check clears.
I feel you can provide valid criticism of any politician due to the nature of the job but I feel like this one doesn't make any sense for Bernie. Dudes filthy rich and has actually been getting Biden to lean more and more progressive. If he was in it for the money he's already right where he needs to be.
Dude is rich and still the poorest member of the Senate. Let that sink in for a minute.
Then why didn't he stick to his "principles" and speak out against the party blatantly fixing the race against him? You know what they say about people who get rich in politics right?it didn't happen due to his senators salary.
Note this is purely opinion, but I think it's because that's how politics works, it's all favor for favor and coalition building. He could either press the issue hard and be on the outs with the democratic leadership and the current administration or he could toe the party line and keep his access to Biden which in hindsight appears to have been the right choice. If you wanted to make some further conjecture you could argue he was more worried about results than personal success and that actually would make me respect him more.
Are we pretending Biden is actually in charge? Kamala agrees with Bernie a lot. Doesn't mean she'll follow him over her donors. Bernie's good guy public image is a complete joke. He will say something is immoral and vote on it when the right earmarks are in place. He's one of the most powerful and influential people in the party while being totally neutered. At least he got a dope house out of bending over. That sounds like personal success over results to me.
I'm sorry, but if you're gonna use the Kamala Harris is puppeting the president conspiracy I don't think we can have a productive conversation. Your entitled to your opinion on it but I don't see us coming to a middle ground and having a rational discussion about the matter.
Did we watch the same man on stage yesterday?
You're correct, Sanders has the majority of his money from the books he's written. This is widely established and has been actively verified....
Lol ok buddy.
He's released his tax files... Like there are news articles about it. You can simply search it in your favorite search engine. You could probably search it on Twitter...
Am I supposed to think him spreading his bad ideas is more ethical than him being a garbage politician with no morals?
I'm not sure you know what morals are.
It's one of the things Bernie lacks.
Right leaning Christian independents like Kinzinger might, even he sees that the rights policies are antithetical to democracy. And Project 2025 will work indepently of Trump and the new candidate would be beholden to it and the Christian nationalists who authored it. Trump is a symptom of the disease not the disease it self.
Yeah since 2016 and Trump first "win" I have never been afraid of Trump himself but what comes after him. What comes after Trump is project 2025
Last sentence is very well said. I would love it if Trump himself was our only problem. It isn't. It's the 30% of votes that truly want Christian nationalism, bans on gay marriage, bans on abortion with no exception ect, and the other 19ish% of voters who don't want all that but still vote R because right wing media has convinced them Ds are worse. We simply have too many people that want a Christian monoculture, too much right wing propaganda
At this point, I’ll take Nixons head in a jar over Trump.
I believe Nikki Haley would be much h tougher for Biden to beat than Trump.
Agree, she would pull independents and anyone on the fence. But no way trump drops out. He'd run as an independent if the GOP dumped him, but they won't, he would beat them down with insults and lies.
Agree to agree!! 😀
It’s completely insane that after January 6th they chose to stick with Trump. Ask yourself; what the Fuck happened to Mike Pence ! The people who are left wouldn’t even support Nikey Hailey. They never supported Liz Cheney. They maintain the big lie. I was a life long Republican, some of you might hate me for that; but I’m NOT MAGA. No big lie; never. Proud RINO, Liz Cheney Republican. Think Lincoln, Reagan. Never voted for Trump; Libertarian the first time, Biden the second time, will support Biden again. He belongs in a retirement village but he’s the key to democracy !
Depends on the candidate. If it’s a Trump sycophant then no, if it’s a moderate, I think a shit ton of independent and democratic voters would switch. I would for sure
Why would you? Project 2025 doesn't change regardless of which republican gets the nomination
Problem is that like 80% of the people in the USA have never heard of Project 2025, and even less understand that the Republican party is basically just a front for Christian Nationalism now, and far far less than that understand that Christian Nationalism is just as repugnant and disturbingly similar to White Nationalism, which is just as repugnant and very similar to the Nazi party. It used to be you could be a moderate and make a choice between the two parties based on the totality of what was happening in the world and which candidate was the best of two bad choices, or which party was currently going to maybe handle the situation best. Now if you are a moderate and you vote for the Republican party you are tossing out country in the toilet no matter who is running... But the issue is nobody realizes this.
It’s funny that they hate fascists and communists who usually have a manifesto… and they made a manifesto
you realize project 2025 is not a GOP position right? it's a plan drafted by a right wing think tank (that releases something really similar every 4 years) so yeah. it absolutely does dependant on who is elected.
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/BeauOfTheFifthColumn/comments/1dqc90s/comment/lb48gss/) >you realize project 2025 is not a GOP position right? Damn, they could've fooled me!
that is kinda the plan with biased and fear mongering media. the 2025 plan isn't new. it's just "news".
There's no such thing as a moderate Republican.
Especially if they’re a moderate under 60.
Independents are fucking morons, so they might.
I’m registered as an independent. I have absolutely never voted republican. The reason I registered as an independent when I turned 18 is because I didn’t want to be “locked” into a party. I do my due diligence and research every candidate running for things and vote based on their actual stances of policies, not what they say their stances are, but how they’ve actually voted on those issues in the passed. It’s honestly sad that you think people who vote independent aren’t very intelligent when in reality most people I’ve met who are independent voters do the same thing I do to decide who to vote for. I don’t believe in “party loyalty”, I believe in the right person for the job. Unfortunately in America the Republican Party is completely unhinged right now and toeing the line of straight up genocide on some topics (see trans issues) so in the 10+ years I’ve been able to vote I’ve never voted for them, and I vote for presidential all the way down to local stuff. Third party candidates simply will not get enough support to win an election at every level of government, mostly due to party loyalty, so voting for them is throwing my vote away. Not sure why you think independent voters are dumb but we’re not the enemy you seem to think we are
You aren't an independent voter if you only vote D. You're a D that is registered as independent because you are willing to consider Rs. But as you say, you never vote for Rs because you disagree with their policies... because you're a Democrat, not an independent. When OP says "independent voters", he means people what cast votes for Rs and Ds depending on the candidates
If there was a republican that was more centrist who I thought would do a good job I would absolutely vote for them. I’m not a democrat I’m an independent. I don’t vote based on party stances I vote based on independent stances and how they’ve voted on policies in the past. I cannot make this clear enough I’m not a democrat. If there was what I deemed an acceptable candidate from the republicans I would vote for them. What you’re saying makes a much sense as saying that because I’m engaged to a man that I’m not actually bisexual I’m straight…
Independents aren't necessarily. Undecided voters are, because they'd have to be massively uninformed to still be undecided.
I find "independence" to be a lack of information on how shit actually works.
I feel the same way about party line voting. it's lazy pie in the sky nonsense. but really you get way more change by putting pressure on sitting representatives than by selecting their replacements.
Often just people who don't like the 2-party system.
Yeah, nobody likes the two party system. Means absolutely fuck all.
Means they don't like registering with a party, so they stay independent and vote for who they think is best. That's been Dems or Independents for a while now if they have at least 2 brain cells to rub together.
I think this is a semantics battle about what "independent" means. There's the literal meaning of "no registered as a D or R", but there's the conceptual practical meaning of "sometimes votes R, sometimes D, because I don't agree with either platform". I think the guy you're arguing with is talking about that second kind, ie "people that vote for both are idiots". You're defending the practice of registering Independent but voting D. Most of us would just call that voter a D as practically there's no difference
Probably so, but calling them a D is going to be incorrect when discussing things like polling and likely voters, etc., because that's not how they're counted.
No one is dumber than the people blindly supporting one side because they feel like the smartest person in the room. Independents are the only reasonable portion of the electorate
Nothing blind about *actually having principles and understanding issues*.
Confirmed dumbass thinks independents don’t have principles or understand issues because they don’t vote along party lines. Lmao
also the largest portion of the electorate. this asshole just called 70% of american stupid (only about 30% of registered voters are registered as dems) and that has been the biggest issue with Dems lately. they can't get people to vote for their candidates through attraction, so they rely on "shame" 🤷♂️
Historically... no.
No one on the GOP with enough spine to manage the alt right. Find a younger moderate with a real message or plan, stop trying stomp all over peoples rights because you dont like them, get back towards the functional middle and you might have a shot. trumps enablers wouldnt have enough support
If Trump could be gone and replaced by a non-MAGA Republican, which seems to no longer exist, I believe it would be an easy win for the GOP. But not going to happen.
Yeah there are no non-MAGAs politicians left. Moderate Rs are willing to vote for Trump, but MAGA voters aren't willing to vote for moderates anymore. They are all or nothing voters captured in a cult of personality For that reason, I don't think a non-Trump R would win this cycle. Sire, they'd get moderates to vote for them over Joe, BUT I think the MAGA protest no votes would outweigh that.
Nothing will make me vote qpublican ever
no… MAGA voting base… the GoP fed this base and grew it… now they won’t be able to live without it. have fun w/ ur angry - loud - gun crazed - conspiracy - christian base
The Great Old One? Yeah, people have already had Cthulu for president bumper stickers.
What is a GOO candidate?
I doubt it, Trump isn’t the only ghoul in the GoP
I genuinely don't believe that the GOP has a chance without Trump. They hitched their horse King Mierdas's wagon and now they're stuck till he retires or dies. They might get a decently higher percentage of the independent vote but they'll lose too much of the MAGA vote out of protest if Trump is forcibly dropped. Down Ballot races, where independents can't be trusted to simply vote down the party line, will also be massively impacted.
Yeah, they do. I say that though less confidently than I would have before the debate. Biden had a bad debate, but he's having a hell of a bounce back from it. A moderate Republican would still be a problem for him. Throw a "moderate" Republican like Kasich or Liz Cheney in at the eleventh hour and they can present themselves as the answer to all America's ills. They'll just talk about Reagan a lot, and uninformed voters think Reagan was both a movie star and a great President. We want Biden running against Trump.
I'm not voting against Trump. I'm voting for Democrats because they're actually trying to get things accomplished and pushing for better policies.
They'd get a lot more independents, not necessarily a swarm. Problem would because of the cult of personality currently fueling much of the GOP base a lot of them would stay home on election day, sulking in their diapers (proudly), so Biden would still do well.
Not predictable. Independents vote for the person, not their party. If the GOP would, or could, offer a candidate that's not a MAGAt, this could happen. A Trump clone, No, I don't believe so. Most of us who are not members of either political gang tend to vote for people who support the country first, not themselves or their gang (party). Republicans are the worst, but they aren't all MAGAts, Trump calls them RHINOs, I call them good Republicans. I might vote for a RHINO. Not likely, but maybe.
trump is the GOO candidate.
I think that if ether side dropped a candidate it would greatly improve their chances of winning. Right now the old douche or shit sandwich scenario is in full play.
I’m an Independent. I will vote for the most qualified candidate, regardless of their brand.
Biden is a known quantity. that’s why he is where he is.
Depends who. Only one I see as having a shot would be Paul Ryan. His never Trumper stance won’t play well with the base, of course, but that also makes him a white knight for the GOP and a possible pathway back to saner times. No, I think we’re more likely to see a Trump/Tucker ticket than to see one without Trump.
I hope so.
No.
If pigs were turnips would tea in China be less expensive?
I suspect so. If the GOP nominated a younger candidate, I think it is possible that a substantial portion of "independent" voters concerned about Biden's age would just blindly vote for the younger person.
You mean if a normal person ran and was closer to center right. One that wasn’t a felon, wasn’t mean spirited, and didn’t have the baggage (read that how you will) would conservativeish people vote that way… yes.
It greatly depends on the candidate. If John Sununu were on the Republican ticket, yes. Maybe even Chris Christy. Christy wouldn’t be acceptable to the party though. I’m pretty interested to see Trumps pick for VP. That might sway some voters. You aren’t going to get a great answer to your question on Reddit. There really isn’t an independent sub that’s not crawling with either dems or republicans.
There is no mechanism in the Republican party to replace him like there is in the Democratic party
I think if the GOP was forced to replace Trump, they would still look great. But, Trump was voted as the GOP candidate, ripping the nomination from him would be anti-democratic. Voters know that, this cycle, Republicans held primaries and Democrats didn't. One of the big advantages Republicans have this cycle is they used voting to determine their candidate, they trusted in the Democratic process. To betray that now, it would be hard to swallow.
There was a primary for the democrat nominee. What do you mean the democrats didn’t have a primary? [Here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries)
You gotta admit, though, it was pretty weak. The Dems have this notion ( albeit well-founded) that you never want to turn away from the incumbent advantage. Personally, I think using this heuristic in the face of overwhelmingly bad polling and the oldest person to ever seek the presidency and an economy that is crippling most ordinary Americans, and during a major right-wing populist uprising is just stupid. But, conventional wisdom. . . Anyway, Biden didn't get anything remotely akin to a robust primary challenge, and I think a lot of the Democratic coalition is pissed about it.
Was there a strong candidate to oppose him? Is there a strong candidate to replace him now? Name someone who has a chance.
I don't know who a strong replacement would be at this point, but if they don't find someone quickly, Trump will be elected in November. This is a terrible situation. This is our last Independence Day without a king/dictatorship. The Dems have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are too weak to do what needs to be done to protect the country from an authoritarian coup. We are screwed.
Biden was the only name on the ballot for many of the primaries. There are multiple primaries, not just one. You can't just declare "primary" and change that.
Out of the fifty states Biden was the only name on maybe five, all deep red states except New Jersey. Maryanne Williamson and Dean Phillips were on the vast majority of the ballots. The primary was held.
Fair enough, as long as we agree that Florida and North Carolina are also deep red states this election cycle. But, that is kind of a strange qualifier, since most states are deep red this cycle.
I think any reasonable Republican would trounce Biden at this point. The ONLY reason it’s close is that most people don’t want to vote for Trump. But engine in the GOP establishment is afraid of Trump. He’s proven over and over again that he can torch any Republican’s career at will.
I think you are right. I bet if Romney or Liz Cheney declared themselves a Democrat and challenged Biden at the convention right now, they'd probably get the nomination just because of how terrified people are of another Trump administration and how shakey they are with the prospects of Biden being able to win.
Can we all just write in Jon Stewart?
That would be a definite maybe. But I personally will probably wait about 10 years before I vate Republican again. Trump has really fucked up the whole party. I would rather wait till the MAGATS are all out of the picture. It would have to be a stellar individual to convince me.
Whoever the GOP choose regardless of Trump will implement project 2025. There is no difference between GOP candidates at this point. They’re all ‘MAGA.
As an independent, there's literally no way for me to vote red for the forseeable future. I've effectively gone all blue. I'd rather blue squander all my money on public services and there is a place for me to live than for red to take all my money for themselves and stick me in a concentration camp.
Nobody. What Dems don't understand is that Trump isn't some sort of far-right extremist who only Nazis like. He is a centrist with policies that appeal to both the right AND the left. A lot of his support comes from former Democrats who are sick and tired of DNC extremism. If Trump were replaced by almost any other Republican Biden would win by 10 points due to lack of moderare support.
If the GOP tried to remove Trump, his people would revolt, so the slight number of moderates gained wouldn’t be worth it. However, Dems have much less obedience to Biden, and Biden is astronomically more likely to step aside for the good of others, so I could see it working much better for them
The Great Old One candidate? Already one step ahead of you. Voting Cthulhu.
The GOP is Trump's party now. The GOP is going to drastically transform in 12 years.
I think it’s dependent some on the investments paying off financially goes the investors.
We've seen the GOP clown car and every clown in it. They suck! Dems are not happy because Biden is old and they can't get around that but there's an equally divided, scary bunch of democratic amusement park mascots that we don't want either. It's just the GOP has been such a dumpster fire.