If it confirms the amnesiac, I’d strongly recommend mez, bounty hunter, or summoner.
Imo, just make sure the player has agency. It isn’t your ability, it is theirs.
Either that, or introduce the possibility that "You are an Outsider/Minion/Demon (and know it)" will occasionally straight up be part of the Amne ability.
Agreed, we had a legion game where the amne ability required the st to wake us all up on night 1 to ask what our favourite movies were. So the amne was immediately confirmed not to be evil there.
Generally, no.
Part of the fun of Amnesiac is that you're going to be trying to figure out what exactly you do. In return, your power is more than other Townsfolk. If there's no guesswork, you really can't give the Amnesiac a super strong ability.
Additionally, let's just say the ability is "One evil minion in the game is instead a good Outsider \[+1 outsider\] \[-1 Evil Minion\]". That's pretty strong. However, would you feel fulfilled as the Amnesiac by playing that? All you did was serve as a vehicle for the Storyteller. Nothing you did mattered in that game that was pertinent to your application of the ability. You're a glorified Fabled at that point.
In the example you give, the amnesiac has the agency of trying to work out what their ability actually is so that the town can interpret minion activity. For example, if the amne solves their ability, they can go "cerenovus is the only minion in the game, therefore no pit hag, therefore no worries about demon type changes". If they don't, town may be basing their solve around the assumption of minions they haven't had evidence for.
It's still an amne ability that, if they didn't solve it or even try to, had no real difference. Yes, the dissemination of information would help, but you're trying to figure out how you're a ST vehicle rather than actively picking and deciding.
For the record, that particular amne ability is also MEGA TURBO BUSTED.
But there are tons of characters that don't pick and decide. Like I struggle to see how this amnesiac has less agency than, say, a Soldier or Mayor. You're still visiting the storyteller every day, thinking of good questions, narrowing down what your ability does not do etc. I think the point you are making is that the amnesiac has already done the damage to evil by their existence, so it's not based on the efforts of the player. And I would agree that ability is busted. But I don't see the problem with a passive amnesiac ability that doesn't involve the amnesiac picking or learning anything, they've still got to interpret and solve which on its own is more to do than most characters.
So the problem with a very passive amne is, along with the lack of agency and decisions, that a passive amne is either going to never know what they do, or it's very obvious what they do. And guessing either something that's obvious or impossible isn't very fun
My favorite amnesiac ability that ended up being obvious was: "Once per game, choose a player: their ability becomes enhanced"
I was the Ravenkeeper and selected by the Amnesiac. I ended up executed, yet was woken in the night to select a player. My ability got enhanced like this: "If you die ~~at night~~, choose a player: learn their character"
Honestly, stealing this. Imagine picking an empath and that empath gets 2 numbers. Reading their immediate living neighbors, and then the next set of neighbors.
Keep in mind that the Virgin is an incredibly powerful Townsfolk. Virgin's ability is "Sacrifice 1 execution and 1 good player: everyone knows who you are."
Any Amnesiac power that confirms itself can't really be better than that. At the very least, you either need to make it impossible to determine who the Amne is (even if it's 100% obvious an Amne is in play) or make it *really obvious* who the Amne is so the evil team can deal with that. Confirmatory Amne abilities are extremely rough on the evil team.
A good example of an ability that pushes the envelope a bit but *might* be ok is "Each night, player is selected at random, and you learn that player. If they are an outsider, they lose their ability. The first night, the Drunk is selected." Obviously, no player agency on the Amnesiac's part, which isn't great. It confirms to the person that receives the Drunk token that an Amnesiac is in play, though, but it does it very quietly. It's better than a Nightwatchman, but not by much.
A bad example of an ability is "The first time you nominate, if you nominate a Minion, they die." It sounds good on paper because if they miss, they can still figure it out, but what happens if they hit? The evil team immediately loses a player, the Amne confirms themselves as 100% the Amne, and evil is just straight behind.
That said, don't use either of these abilities. That first one is too insane to let into the wild.
Virgin presumably is less powerful with a witch on the script, so as long as the amnesiac ability can be simulated by minions on the script it's ok to be loud?
Ah Virgin is execute not kill. I misremembered.
You'd need to use a ceronovus to trigger it then, make yourself mad about being an outsider, then claim townsfolk and nominate the demon who is bluffing virgin to execute yourself.
That's a bit less certain though, as you need to hope the ST plays along!
I think it very much depends on who draws the token. As storyteller, you want all of your players to have a fun and rewarding experience. Some players just aren't going to be able to solve a complex ability and would have a better game if you gave them a more straightforward ability. Some players would relish the opportunity to solve a complex game solving power. If you have a newer or less confident player, I'd be fine giving them an obvious (but not very strong) ability. This gives them a good chance at solving it, contributing to the game, and above all, not feeling stupid, which is what I try to avoid at all costs.
Yes, but you have to introduce such massive downsides to balance it that it often isn't worth doing.
The "normal" way to balance an Amnesiac is that the ability can be more powerful than a regular TF, but you don't know (and might never know) what effect you're having. If you remove that downside, it also almost always confirms the Amnesiac - which means the you either need to massively nerf the actual ability (which likely isn't fun for the Amne) or add in additional massive downsides, which run the risk of getting the balance wrong and either leaving the Amne too strong, or effectively making it an Outsider.
In most cases, it's easier and more fun for everyone involved to just stay away from this delicate balancing act and come up with a different, hidden ability.
Yes, but they should be balanced. The light in a player’s eyes when they figure it out, as an ST, is a wonderful thing.
I’ll give an example. At Clocktower Con a couple weeks ago, I had Amne in an Organ Grinder game. Their ability was this:
You may keep your eyes open during voting, but your nearest living Townsfolk neighbhor is drunk. You lose this ability when the Organ Grinder dies.
When the first vote came, I woke the Amne. They never figured out the second half of their ability, but it was incredibly fun for them because they felt they could have a real impact on the game which where I think a lot of Amne abilities fall short. I’ve seen so many Amne’s get seemingly random numbers, words, etc and never figure it out and they just felt ineffective. And the moment evil found out they could do this had them ALL in a panic.
Evil did win that game, but EVERYONE had fun.
If it confirms the amnesiac, I’d strongly recommend mez, bounty hunter, or summoner. Imo, just make sure the player has agency. It isn’t your ability, it is theirs.
Either that, or introduce the possibility that "You are an Outsider/Minion/Demon (and know it)" will occasionally straight up be part of the Amne ability.
Agreed, we had a legion game where the amne ability required the st to wake us all up on night 1 to ask what our favourite movies were. So the amne was immediately confirmed not to be evil there.
Generally, no. Part of the fun of Amnesiac is that you're going to be trying to figure out what exactly you do. In return, your power is more than other Townsfolk. If there's no guesswork, you really can't give the Amnesiac a super strong ability. Additionally, let's just say the ability is "One evil minion in the game is instead a good Outsider \[+1 outsider\] \[-1 Evil Minion\]". That's pretty strong. However, would you feel fulfilled as the Amnesiac by playing that? All you did was serve as a vehicle for the Storyteller. Nothing you did mattered in that game that was pertinent to your application of the ability. You're a glorified Fabled at that point.
In the example you give, the amnesiac has the agency of trying to work out what their ability actually is so that the town can interpret minion activity. For example, if the amne solves their ability, they can go "cerenovus is the only minion in the game, therefore no pit hag, therefore no worries about demon type changes". If they don't, town may be basing their solve around the assumption of minions they haven't had evidence for.
It's still an amne ability that, if they didn't solve it or even try to, had no real difference. Yes, the dissemination of information would help, but you're trying to figure out how you're a ST vehicle rather than actively picking and deciding. For the record, that particular amne ability is also MEGA TURBO BUSTED.
But there are tons of characters that don't pick and decide. Like I struggle to see how this amnesiac has less agency than, say, a Soldier or Mayor. You're still visiting the storyteller every day, thinking of good questions, narrowing down what your ability does not do etc. I think the point you are making is that the amnesiac has already done the damage to evil by their existence, so it's not based on the efforts of the player. And I would agree that ability is busted. But I don't see the problem with a passive amnesiac ability that doesn't involve the amnesiac picking or learning anything, they've still got to interpret and solve which on its own is more to do than most characters.
So the problem with a very passive amne is, along with the lack of agency and decisions, that a passive amne is either going to never know what they do, or it's very obvious what they do. And guessing either something that's obvious or impossible isn't very fun
Edit app whoopsie
My favorite amnesiac ability that ended up being obvious was: "Once per game, choose a player: their ability becomes enhanced" I was the Ravenkeeper and selected by the Amnesiac. I ended up executed, yet was woken in the night to select a player. My ability got enhanced like this: "If you die ~~at night~~, choose a player: learn their character"
Honestly, stealing this. Imagine picking an empath and that empath gets 2 numbers. Reading their immediate living neighbors, and then the next set of neighbors.
Keep in mind that the Virgin is an incredibly powerful Townsfolk. Virgin's ability is "Sacrifice 1 execution and 1 good player: everyone knows who you are." Any Amnesiac power that confirms itself can't really be better than that. At the very least, you either need to make it impossible to determine who the Amne is (even if it's 100% obvious an Amne is in play) or make it *really obvious* who the Amne is so the evil team can deal with that. Confirmatory Amne abilities are extremely rough on the evil team. A good example of an ability that pushes the envelope a bit but *might* be ok is "Each night, player is selected at random, and you learn that player. If they are an outsider, they lose their ability. The first night, the Drunk is selected." Obviously, no player agency on the Amnesiac's part, which isn't great. It confirms to the person that receives the Drunk token that an Amnesiac is in play, though, but it does it very quietly. It's better than a Nightwatchman, but not by much. A bad example of an ability is "The first time you nominate, if you nominate a Minion, they die." It sounds good on paper because if they miss, they can still figure it out, but what happens if they hit? The evil team immediately loses a player, the Amne confirms themselves as 100% the Amne, and evil is just straight behind. That said, don't use either of these abilities. That first one is too insane to let into the wild.
Virgin presumably is less powerful with a witch on the script, so as long as the amnesiac ability can be simulated by minions on the script it's ok to be loud?
Virgin still executes the player. Witch doesn’t change that.
Ah Virgin is execute not kill. I misremembered. You'd need to use a ceronovus to trigger it then, make yourself mad about being an outsider, then claim townsfolk and nominate the demon who is bluffing virgin to execute yourself. That's a bit less certain though, as you need to hope the ST plays along!
I think it very much depends on who draws the token. As storyteller, you want all of your players to have a fun and rewarding experience. Some players just aren't going to be able to solve a complex ability and would have a better game if you gave them a more straightforward ability. Some players would relish the opportunity to solve a complex game solving power. If you have a newer or less confident player, I'd be fine giving them an obvious (but not very strong) ability. This gives them a good chance at solving it, contributing to the game, and above all, not feeling stupid, which is what I try to avoid at all costs.
Yes, but you have to introduce such massive downsides to balance it that it often isn't worth doing. The "normal" way to balance an Amnesiac is that the ability can be more powerful than a regular TF, but you don't know (and might never know) what effect you're having. If you remove that downside, it also almost always confirms the Amnesiac - which means the you either need to massively nerf the actual ability (which likely isn't fun for the Amne) or add in additional massive downsides, which run the risk of getting the balance wrong and either leaving the Amne too strong, or effectively making it an Outsider. In most cases, it's easier and more fun for everyone involved to just stay away from this delicate balancing act and come up with a different, hidden ability.
Yes, but they should be balanced. The light in a player’s eyes when they figure it out, as an ST, is a wonderful thing. I’ll give an example. At Clocktower Con a couple weeks ago, I had Amne in an Organ Grinder game. Their ability was this: You may keep your eyes open during voting, but your nearest living Townsfolk neighbhor is drunk. You lose this ability when the Organ Grinder dies. When the first vote came, I woke the Amne. They never figured out the second half of their ability, but it was incredibly fun for them because they felt they could have a real impact on the game which where I think a lot of Amne abilities fall short. I’ve seen so many Amne’s get seemingly random numbers, words, etc and never figure it out and they just felt ineffective. And the moment evil found out they could do this had them ALL in a panic. Evil did win that game, but EVERYONE had fun.