Which is stupid to pay for. I can buy a $13 tenderloin, cook the shit out of it on my grill and its better than anything downtown. People who are paying 70 for a steak either have money growing on trees or are stupid.
When interest rates drop home prices will *increase*, because suddenly mortgages become affordable and demand will have buying power.
It's going to be a disaster. Entire generations that had parents who owned homes, but will never own a home themselves.
USA USA USA
It's a bit of a cultural thing too. For example in Japan older homes lose value because newer ones are viewed to be more up to code and have less issues.
The problem of course is that in the United States home values have always gone up over time It's just now we're finally hitting that point where the go up is exceeding the buying power of certain segments of the populace.
> exceeding the buying power of certain segments of the populace
"Certain segments", eh? You mean about 80-90% of the population? Even doctors and lawyers, who have traditionally been seen as upper-middle to upper class, are being priced out.
Also doctors and lawyers here both make significantly less than they do elsewhere. "Mountain tax" and all that shit.
Source: am lawyer, make probably half or less than half of what a lot of my law school classmates are earning now. Friends in healthcare can make far more living in larger and less expensive cities or even in places like Anaconda.
I'm not angry with you. Your statement, to me, appeared to be inaccurate. As I quoted, your language vastly understates the issue. Again, I'm not saying I'm angry, just wanted to correct the record to better reflect the reality most of us are living in.
>It's a bit of a cultural thing too. For example in Japan older homes lose value because newer ones are viewed to be more up to code and have less issues.
There are also roots here in Shintoism, where shrines are rebuilt every 20 years as an act of renewal.
Eh, I wouldn't say cultural. I would say it's the end result of a country that finacializes *everything*, from having a baby to feeding the elderly.
More and more of the houses will be in fewer and fewer hands, until the nation is a nation of renters, paying 30, 40, 50% of their income on shelter, another 30% on food.
This was always the intended result.
It's mostly doom and gloom, but not entirely.
When parents who own homes pass on, the children benefit from the value of those homes. I guess that's pretty depressing, but still.
I mean, that's just patently false
[1900 to 2000 home ownership percentages](https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial/tables/time-series/coh-owner/owner-tab.txt)
[1965 to 2023 FRED Homeownership Rate](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N)
More people as a percentage of the population own their home than at almost any time - peaked in 2005 at slightly over 69% - in United States history.
Honestly, I'm having a hard time reconciling your first post
>suddenly mortgages become affordable and demand will have buying power.
"Mortgages will be cheaper so more people will buy!"
Followed by
>Entire generations that had parents who owned homes, but will never own a home themselves.
It's Schrodinger's mortgage! Everyone has one, and no one has one!
So which one is it? Lower interest rates will make mortgage more affordable, or no one will own their home?
Remember - a mortgage is a loan you take out to *buy a home*. If mortgage are more affordable, then more people can afford a home. The more people that can afford a home, the higher the home ownership rate.
TL:DR - You're holding *directly* contradicting positions.
Hey let’s not knock real estate agents. Their jobs are pretty hard, lots of math involved. You ever tried remembering how many bedrooms and half baths are in one house?!?
It's definitely a grift when you're getting 6% of an $800K house that was $450K four years ago, and would sell in 48 hours before you even have to do a showing or open house.
I used a real estate lawyer and it was such an easy and much cheaper process, although it was many years ago.
The entire city commission and city planning staff have failed to make Bozeman a less desirable place to live. And they're all in cahoots with the developers to build only "luxury" housing. We deserve better. And it's our duty to hold them accountable!
Housing prices obviously suck here, but is the county and "greater Bozeman area" prices inflated by Big Sky?
Anecdotally I've seen quite a few price drops on Zillow. Not sure if that's a sign of people making their initial price too high, or a softening of the market.
It's still absurd, but maybe the local market isn't quite as bad as as that data suggests, it's just bad data. You can't compare Bozeman prices with Bozeman+Big Sky and get an accurate representation.
Or maybe I'm a dummy.
So I thought that things were easing up too. We've seen nearby homes and condos on the market for lengthy periods of time, and have noticed price decreases. I sort of figured that all the new developments were helping. However, we've seen very few new houses hitting the market right in the past month or so.
I just checked my house on Zillow for the hell of it and almost fell out of my chair. Off the rails high compared to the last time I checked a year or so ago. I know a Zillow estimate isn't necessarily accurate, but comparing it to itself over time should be valid.
Yeah it's hard to get an accurate gauge. A lot of these types of articles seem to use "Bozeman", "Gallatin County" and "Greater Bozeman" somewhat interchangeably.
And they often come with info from interest groups, like Realtor Associations whose goal is to get people moving between homes. I can't help but take their information with a grain of salt, especially when sometimes they make apples and oranges comparisons.
Agreed. Although the source behind the article does seem to make it clear that it's Bozeman, specifically. The median up in Big Sky is something like $3M.
[The Gallatin Association of Realtors' infographic](https://www.gallatinrealtors.com/market-infographic/) allows you to toggle on and off what areas in the county you're interested in. The entire county is the default, but you can click on "10 areas selected" and check just boxes for Big Sky, Bozeman, etc.
Didn't look at the story, so not sure exactly what data they're using for it, but this will help with narrowing down the data for specific communities across the county!
Big Sky is technically Madison County. I haven’t read the article, but if they’re just talking about Gallatin county then that wouldn’t include Big Sky.
Hmm, it appears that Big Sky is part of both Madison and Gallatin County, so I guess it depends where you are in Big Sky dictates what county you're in. So I'm sure there's some insanely priced places in both counties. The Y Club is in Madison, which probably really is an outlier to the home values over there.
You’re correct actually. The Meadows is Gallatin County, but basically right before you get to the main base it turns to Madison (you can see the sign on the right side of the road when you drive up). So Gallatin would include everything up to the Meadows and slightly beyond.
I had to drive a buddy there for a court appearance over a decade ago. Lil homie got caught with an open container at meadow village while underage. Quite the haul for a bunch of 18 year olds 😂 thankfully he didn’t have to spend any jail time.
Hah yeah. It’s still spendy in the meadows compared to Bozeman, but it doesn’t really compare to the eye-wateringly expensive properties that are common on the mountain.
My friend says, "Oh! Those people looking for homes can just buy a home in another town and commute." -sigh- He doesn't understand that there is little inventory elsewhere and they are overpriced as well. He himself bought a fancy property with acerage on the outskirts of Bozeman and a nice house for $450k about ten years ago. He doesn't understand how inflated everything has become.
It’s not really inflated. The property is actually that valuable to the market. Lots of people, Montanans and not, want to live in Bozeman. That’s not going to change anytime soon.
"According to Salary.com, the average salary in Bozeman is currently $61,000. And as our realtors claim, unless you’re making about $120,000 to $150,000 each in a dual-income household, the majority of people in Bozeman simply cannot afford to buy a house." Outstanding. All you need to buy a house in a small town in Montana is for you and your spouse to be in the top 30% of earners nationwide, presumably for 30ish years so your ass doesn't get foreclosed. Also don't have kids or pets or a life outside of your job, because those six figure gigs sure as shit aren't part time.
That's fucking depressing, but also kind of answers my question of "how are there this many people with enough cash to buy a house outright?"
It's just really, incredibly, caustically frustrating.
I'm one of the lucky ones that managed to buy just before prices got completely stupid and this beyond infuriates me. Why? Because I hate seeing people I care for having to leave because shit just keeps getting more expensive and rent went from high to absurd. I hate being on my third mechanic because the last two finally had enough of this crazy place and retired in one case and bailed out for cheaper pastures in the other. I hate seeing businesses struggle to hire, even at great wages, because while it may be good pay for very basic work, it doesn't go too far when you're looking at $1k just to rent a room monthly. Even if you bought early as I did, your property taxes and other costs continue to balloon.
I'm about ready to choke the next realtor that tells me "but you'll make a ton of money when you sell!" Yeah, great, and if I do that, even with making 3x what I paid for the house, you got a cardboard box I can move into? Cause that's about all that would be in my budget.
I don't want to see a crash ala 2008 because that hurts even more people but this ridiculous unending inflation of property values isn't the solution either.
Home prices are ridiculous here. People what a part of what another might be able to make the house worth, regardless of existing quality. It's pushing the working class out of the valley, not just out of town.
I tend to pick up on things outside of Montana, and so far it seems like this is happening to every corner of the US, there is no place else to go, unless you live in the middle of literally nowhere but then what’s the cost to be Self sustainable? This is getting ridiculous.
Lack of supply is the biggest factor. Demand has not dropped either. If interest rates keep dropping, expect demand to increase.
Prices aren't going to magically go back to what they were 5+ years ago.
100%. People talk about a “bubble” as if banks are throwing high interest money at MLM “entrepreneurs” with sub-600 credit scores to buy houses in Bozeman. It’s the exact opposite. We’ve got perfect credit white collar buyers with no options here. It’s a tough pill for the “protect Bozeman” crowd but there is no way out of this until a lot more housing hits the market
Would you like $60 pizza with that? How bout a 30 dollar hamburger?
Just saw a $70 steak on the menu downtown for a regular ny strip
Which is stupid to pay for. I can buy a $13 tenderloin, cook the shit out of it on my grill and its better than anything downtown. People who are paying 70 for a steak either have money growing on trees or are stupid.
Folk around here definitely have money growing on trees, or an unfathomable amount of debt
Oh 100% and season it the way you like too since that seems to get missed a lot for some reason
We are inching up there considering a Red Tractor large pizza is now $42.
Red Tractor is way over rated
Cosmic is still in the $20 range. And red tractor sucks anyways
They have designer pizzas. If I want something interesting and have cash to blow I'd go there. If I want pizza I'll go literally anywhere else lol
I ate a good pie there two years ago but nothing since that's worth that price
Please, no, say it’s not true
I wish this was a joke. Ordered one large pizza, 8 wings, and some bread stick things and it was $52 before tip.
How about an $18 breakfast burrito (Jam! For the win)
Atleast Jam will have the decency to kill you. (Same owners as Dave’s). A batch of their overpriced poison burritos might bring down housing prices
When interest rates drop home prices will *increase*, because suddenly mortgages become affordable and demand will have buying power. It's going to be a disaster. Entire generations that had parents who owned homes, but will never own a home themselves. USA USA USA
"You'll own nothing and be happy"!
Thank you Carol Roth… lol
It's a bit of a cultural thing too. For example in Japan older homes lose value because newer ones are viewed to be more up to code and have less issues. The problem of course is that in the United States home values have always gone up over time It's just now we're finally hitting that point where the go up is exceeding the buying power of certain segments of the populace.
> exceeding the buying power of certain segments of the populace "Certain segments", eh? You mean about 80-90% of the population? Even doctors and lawyers, who have traditionally been seen as upper-middle to upper class, are being priced out.
Also doctors and lawyers here both make significantly less than they do elsewhere. "Mountain tax" and all that shit. Source: am lawyer, make probably half or less than half of what a lot of my law school classmates are earning now. Friends in healthcare can make far more living in larger and less expensive cities or even in places like Anaconda.
Woah, Hold the righteous anger I'm in agreement with you bro I'm just being diplomatic in the language.
I'm not angry with you. Your statement, to me, appeared to be inaccurate. As I quoted, your language vastly understates the issue. Again, I'm not saying I'm angry, just wanted to correct the record to better reflect the reality most of us are living in.
>It's a bit of a cultural thing too. For example in Japan older homes lose value because newer ones are viewed to be more up to code and have less issues. There are also roots here in Shintoism, where shrines are rebuilt every 20 years as an act of renewal.
Eh, I wouldn't say cultural. I would say it's the end result of a country that finacializes *everything*, from having a baby to feeding the elderly. More and more of the houses will be in fewer and fewer hands, until the nation is a nation of renters, paying 30, 40, 50% of their income on shelter, another 30% on food. This was always the intended result.
Those damn tatami rooms jacking up the price ...
It's mostly doom and gloom, but not entirely. When parents who own homes pass on, the children benefit from the value of those homes. I guess that's pretty depressing, but still.
If the parents haven’t already cashed in and retired to AZ.
Fantastic news for trust fund kids!
I mean, that's just patently false [1900 to 2000 home ownership percentages](https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial/tables/time-series/coh-owner/owner-tab.txt) [1965 to 2023 FRED Homeownership Rate](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RHORUSQ156N) More people as a percentage of the population own their home than at almost any time - peaked in 2005 at slightly over 69% - in United States history.
Yes, yes, your data is about the past. My post is regarding the future.
Honestly, I'm having a hard time reconciling your first post >suddenly mortgages become affordable and demand will have buying power. "Mortgages will be cheaper so more people will buy!" Followed by >Entire generations that had parents who owned homes, but will never own a home themselves. It's Schrodinger's mortgage! Everyone has one, and no one has one! So which one is it? Lower interest rates will make mortgage more affordable, or no one will own their home? Remember - a mortgage is a loan you take out to *buy a home*. If mortgage are more affordable, then more people can afford a home. The more people that can afford a home, the higher the home ownership rate. TL:DR - You're holding *directly* contradicting positions.
Not if you consider that it’s possible for an individual or a business to own multiple homes.
The median price for a single-family home in the greater Bozeman area is currently $979,500, which is $52,000 more than Seattle.
Real estate agent been pimpin around here and act surprised. Seriously?
Real estate people are the worst
Like used car salespeople…sorry used car salespeople
Hey let’s not knock real estate agents. Their jobs are pretty hard, lots of math involved. You ever tried remembering how many bedrooms and half baths are in one house?!?
It's definitely a grift when you're getting 6% of an $800K house that was $450K four years ago, and would sell in 48 hours before you even have to do a showing or open house. I used a real estate lawyer and it was such an easy and much cheaper process, although it was many years ago.
The entire city commission and city planning staff have failed to make Bozeman a less desirable place to live. And they're all in cahoots with the developers to build only "luxury" housing. We deserve better. And it's our duty to hold them accountable!
Housing prices obviously suck here, but is the county and "greater Bozeman area" prices inflated by Big Sky? Anecdotally I've seen quite a few price drops on Zillow. Not sure if that's a sign of people making their initial price too high, or a softening of the market. It's still absurd, but maybe the local market isn't quite as bad as as that data suggests, it's just bad data. You can't compare Bozeman prices with Bozeman+Big Sky and get an accurate representation. Or maybe I'm a dummy.
So I thought that things were easing up too. We've seen nearby homes and condos on the market for lengthy periods of time, and have noticed price decreases. I sort of figured that all the new developments were helping. However, we've seen very few new houses hitting the market right in the past month or so. I just checked my house on Zillow for the hell of it and almost fell out of my chair. Off the rails high compared to the last time I checked a year or so ago. I know a Zillow estimate isn't necessarily accurate, but comparing it to itself over time should be valid.
Yeah it's hard to get an accurate gauge. A lot of these types of articles seem to use "Bozeman", "Gallatin County" and "Greater Bozeman" somewhat interchangeably. And they often come with info from interest groups, like Realtor Associations whose goal is to get people moving between homes. I can't help but take their information with a grain of salt, especially when sometimes they make apples and oranges comparisons.
Agreed. Although the source behind the article does seem to make it clear that it's Bozeman, specifically. The median up in Big Sky is something like $3M.
[The Gallatin Association of Realtors' infographic](https://www.gallatinrealtors.com/market-infographic/) allows you to toggle on and off what areas in the county you're interested in. The entire county is the default, but you can click on "10 areas selected" and check just boxes for Big Sky, Bozeman, etc.
Didn't look at the story, so not sure exactly what data they're using for it, but this will help with narrowing down the data for specific communities across the county!
I think the price drops youre seeing are just the standard winter dips because less people want to move when it’s -30,
Big Sky is technically Madison County. I haven’t read the article, but if they’re just talking about Gallatin county then that wouldn’t include Big Sky.
Hmm, it appears that Big Sky is part of both Madison and Gallatin County, so I guess it depends where you are in Big Sky dictates what county you're in. So I'm sure there's some insanely priced places in both counties. The Y Club is in Madison, which probably really is an outlier to the home values over there.
You’re correct actually. The Meadows is Gallatin County, but basically right before you get to the main base it turns to Madison (you can see the sign on the right side of the road when you drive up). So Gallatin would include everything up to the Meadows and slightly beyond.
Don't get arrested in the mountain village. If you do, you are headed to Virginia City jail. If you are in the meadow, you go to Bozeman
Actually Madison County inmates are housed in the Gallatin County Detention Center under a room and board agreement.
Back in 2006 when I lived in Big sky you used to go to VC if on the mountain village. It has probably changed since
Is Virginia city bad?
Long drive around to get there.
Poor cops don’t have the jack creek code smh
I had to drive a buddy there for a court appearance over a decade ago. Lil homie got caught with an open container at meadow village while underage. Quite the haul for a bunch of 18 year olds 😂 thankfully he didn’t have to spend any jail time.
I'm guessing the housing in the Meadows is less spendy than the rest of the way up, in general? I don't get up there much, I'm the riff raff lol.
Hah yeah. It’s still spendy in the meadows compared to Bozeman, but it doesn’t really compare to the eye-wateringly expensive properties that are common on the mountain.
My friend says, "Oh! Those people looking for homes can just buy a home in another town and commute." -sigh- He doesn't understand that there is little inventory elsewhere and they are overpriced as well. He himself bought a fancy property with acerage on the outskirts of Bozeman and a nice house for $450k about ten years ago. He doesn't understand how inflated everything has become.
It’s not really inflated. The property is actually that valuable to the market. Lots of people, Montanans and not, want to live in Bozeman. That’s not going to change anytime soon.
🙀
"According to Salary.com, the average salary in Bozeman is currently $61,000. And as our realtors claim, unless you’re making about $120,000 to $150,000 each in a dual-income household, the majority of people in Bozeman simply cannot afford to buy a house." Outstanding. All you need to buy a house in a small town in Montana is for you and your spouse to be in the top 30% of earners nationwide, presumably for 30ish years so your ass doesn't get foreclosed. Also don't have kids or pets or a life outside of your job, because those six figure gigs sure as shit aren't part time.
Also don't count on keeping a lot of friends outside your income bracket - they won't be here for much longer...
I think it's just generational wealth now buying in Bozeman. First time homebuyers gotta be pushed out to three forks and soon butte.
That's fucking depressing, but also kind of answers my question of "how are there this many people with enough cash to buy a house outright?" It's just really, incredibly, caustically frustrating.
We could all commute from Havre or Glasgow.
Houses in livingston going for 700-900k
I'm one of the lucky ones that managed to buy just before prices got completely stupid and this beyond infuriates me. Why? Because I hate seeing people I care for having to leave because shit just keeps getting more expensive and rent went from high to absurd. I hate being on my third mechanic because the last two finally had enough of this crazy place and retired in one case and bailed out for cheaper pastures in the other. I hate seeing businesses struggle to hire, even at great wages, because while it may be good pay for very basic work, it doesn't go too far when you're looking at $1k just to rent a room monthly. Even if you bought early as I did, your property taxes and other costs continue to balloon. I'm about ready to choke the next realtor that tells me "but you'll make a ton of money when you sell!" Yeah, great, and if I do that, even with making 3x what I paid for the house, you got a cardboard box I can move into? Cause that's about all that would be in my budget. I don't want to see a crash ala 2008 because that hurts even more people but this ridiculous unending inflation of property values isn't the solution either.
Home prices are ridiculous here. People what a part of what another might be able to make the house worth, regardless of existing quality. It's pushing the working class out of the valley, not just out of town.
The government should put 165 billion toward housing...oh wait
Keeps the rif from -raft out. Wouldn’t want the misleading class moving into
I tend to pick up on things outside of Montana, and so far it seems like this is happening to every corner of the US, there is no place else to go, unless you live in the middle of literally nowhere but then what’s the cost to be Self sustainable? This is getting ridiculous.
Can not wait to leave this shit stain. End of June and I’m out of here.
Lack of supply is the biggest factor. Demand has not dropped either. If interest rates keep dropping, expect demand to increase. Prices aren't going to magically go back to what they were 5+ years ago.
100%. People talk about a “bubble” as if banks are throwing high interest money at MLM “entrepreneurs” with sub-600 credit scores to buy houses in Bozeman. It’s the exact opposite. We’ve got perfect credit white collar buyers with no options here. It’s a tough pill for the “protect Bozeman” crowd but there is no way out of this until a lot more housing hits the market
right. a 20% drop would be a major "market crash" and even that doesn't make anything affordable.
I'm curious how many investment companies are buying up houses, to resell at higher values?
They must be doing something to add value, otherwise why wouldn’t the original seller sell for that price
Oh they're adding value alright: to their balance sheets, and nowhere else.
Are these prices real ? I dont see how Bozeman could be at that level
we made it into newsweek https://www.newsweek.com/house-prices-hit-1-million-one-small-us-city-1876966
It’s a supply issue. Build housing.
It's a bubble. But beware: Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
Real estate is a ponzi scheme now in Montana, it’s only going to get worse with the people moving here and how these Yellowstone cosplayers vote 😬