Sounds to me like there is a disconnect in what the expectation is of the ESOP. I've never seen it as a "you'll have $10M+, f-you money" its more like a second 401k so you can retire comfortably at 55 instead of 65.
The only people who have those $10M+ accounts are people who have been here 30+ years or are in the C-suite. Idk about yall, but I don't want to be here 30+ years or be a VP or above. So if you're not in the top 5% of tenure or level, why should you be top 5% of ESOP accounts?
All about perspective. ESOP is a tool to retire early and comfortably, not to let you spend like a 1%-er (cause you're not).
When I first joined/was offered a position, no one talked ESOP/bonus money. It was almost an unspoken rule. It wasn't until I got FWD'd an email of my senior management responding to a candidate who withdrew their application with us that I found out just how much money someone with a good tenure here has in their ESOP, because they disclosed it. I thought that was a very strange way to try to convince someone to join, as it came off the exact opposite. As I've stepped into the senior consultant side of things, there is a lot of money talk/bragging that I find very unproductive. I've tried to be a voice of reason for our younger workforce and continually reminded upper management and my higher level peers - our Assistant/Staff levels cannot afford rent on their low salaries due to cost of living and debt as a single income "household", and they really really really do not care about the ESOP dream or the promise of a bonus later when they struggle with the day to day finances now. This typically falls on deaf ears because, how are they not excited about the money prospect?
I used Aspire for the first time earlier this year (on my team it was never really marketed) and I agree it's not a great tool. Fun to play around with I guess? Not realistic.
I think the company as a whole maybe sees the disgruntled pyramid base and are trying to inspire us with dreams of the future. What we want is what we can have now though - a more affordable base salary/bi-weekly paycheck, better PTO/more company holidays, better maternity/paternity leave so we can imagine working here and having a family. When we ask for those things, we're usually just fed the ESOP dream.
In my opinion, it's alright once you're in the system for a few years and can better manage your budget based on our pay system, but it really does suck the first few years trying to make it work if it's just you supporting yourself.
This is just my opinion, but I’d change 401k vesting to like 3 years since that seems typical. It’s a pretty small amount of money anyways so not sure why company cares about gate keeping that.
For the ESOP I think the 6 year schedule is okay, I don’t think people should be able to job hop and take equity with them. However what that ESOP is worth at 6 years is another question.
They should let you take your cash contributions with you at 100% if you were to leave before 6 years but 0 stock if you leave early. Forces the company to give younger employees more stock
This is not allowed by law. We have to follow strict regulations since our company pays little to no federal taxes. Burns & Mac is simply a pass-through entity and the tax burden falls on the individual.
Bingo. If it were three I’d be for-sure aiming to stay at least three years. As it is, if my first year esop isn’t very impressive, I’ll probably be back on the market; I can’t commit to that much risk and sunk-cost for that long, on a gamble. Three years, sure, I’d risk it.
you’ve been out of college 3 seconds and new-hires expect Scrooge McDuckian level riches after Year One. maybe have a reasonable expectation of a 30-yr retirement plan and remember how compound interest works? your ESOP will NOT be impressive after 2,000 hours of work. it will be noticeable after your vested, and be mostly impressive after 10-12 years. also, ITS UNEARNED MONEY, they are literally giving you 11-13% of your salary every year. not sure where the disgruntled hate for extra retirement comes from. a LOT of companies only offer 401k match.
Aspire says $10M at retirement for a grunt worker (like me) ? might be right, $10M in 2054 might be the same as $3M in 2024.
Gen X isn’t going to continue to take care of our Gen Z children into their late 50’s, figured it out or leave, sounds like you’re a burden on the company anyway.
Agree on the 401k vesting but not on the ESOP vesting. Anecdotally, at the 6 year point, you start to see the compounding and share growth work in your favor, and people are more likely to stay.
I don’t use Aspire or when it was the calculator in Excel. In fact, when I used it to calculate just for estimates after a few years, it didn’t meet reality.
My first year got me 3 shares and less than 4 digits of cash. I’ve contributed the max to my 401k since I started. At first the 401k was doing better and then slowly the ESOP began to take the lead. Saving for retirement is playing the long game. What I’m starting to see now on all my investments is the compounding. Some years I had more cash than stock value. For the last few years, it’s been about 35% cash. That’s part of my balanced portfolio.
With the ESOP, I might just be able to retire earlier than I had expected. I still have some years to go, but the math has been about the same (percentage wise) from year to year.
I agree that high earners shouldn’t boast. They think it’s motivating. I always just encourage others to sit down and do the math. Don’t compare yourself to an officer.
For what it’s worth, when I was a new grad I had rent, student loans etc. It’s a part of life, your generation is no different than the ones before you. I’m sure it varies but I can’t recall ever hearing an EO speak about the account balances. I’m sure it does happen, I’ve just not been exposed to it in my time here.
[Housing is 6x median income now, compared to 4x in 2010 and 3x in 1980’s.](https://www.reddit.com/r/economy/s/tTK6onaOhE)
I’m sure university costs have escalated similar. For some reason boomers and Gen X don’t like to admit that Gen Z and millennials have a harder time affording COL.
To be honest, I find it very hard to put myself in the younger generations shoes. Yes, I definitely struggled early in my career with rent and student loans, but the price of everything has outpaced income: especially rent, groceries, reliable transportation. And with our culture requiring an "in office" presence with our offices being in urban areas, it's a trade off between long commutes or expensive housing. I think it's one of the reasons the ESOP can be a blessing is disguise as it's a "forced saving" account to help with each EOs future, but our pay structure would make it difficult for a single income household to feel they are getting the most out of life paycheck to paycheck. All of this combined with a senior executive showing our assistant/staff level staff their Principal account... I can see that being a huge sense of resentment/discouragement.
I do wish there was a way to be transparent about what people have in their accounts as a sense of "you'll be rewarded here for hard work" without it coming off as showboaty.
I don’t think they taught mathematics and ratios back then.
Doesn’t matter, we are still working for *THE* **#1 Engineering Firm in the GALAXY!**
*going back to my avocado toast 🥑 *
When I started a new grad salary was $40k, you got $2500 sign on and $1500 year end. After taxes that would be clearing say $35k a year.
I remember my first apartment cost $995 plus utilities. All that was included was trash. I just checked and the same floor plan where I was is now $1170 - $1270.
I’m not saying you have it better or worse. I’m just saying we all leave college and make entry level salaries.
I am not saying you are wrong, but it would certainly be unusual. My starting floorplan 10 years ago was 750 and is now 1450. doubled in just 10 years. that was in lenexa.
Agree it’s unusual but it’s correct, unless the pricing posted online is wrong. The place sucked to be honest and was impossible to keep cool in the warm months. Could just be demand is there at that specific property. It’s near Town Center.
I’m a 90s millennial. Working here, my compensation has allowed me (with a large family) to live extremely comfortably and then some.
You act like you’re making minimum wage.
Sounds to me like there is a disconnect in what the expectation is of the ESOP. I've never seen it as a "you'll have $10M+, f-you money" its more like a second 401k so you can retire comfortably at 55 instead of 65. The only people who have those $10M+ accounts are people who have been here 30+ years or are in the C-suite. Idk about yall, but I don't want to be here 30+ years or be a VP or above. So if you're not in the top 5% of tenure or level, why should you be top 5% of ESOP accounts? All about perspective. ESOP is a tool to retire early and comfortably, not to let you spend like a 1%-er (cause you're not).
The problem is Aspire sells it as ‘F U’ money, saying you’ll have 8 figures by early 50’s which isn’t the case with how the ESOP is trending.
When I first joined/was offered a position, no one talked ESOP/bonus money. It was almost an unspoken rule. It wasn't until I got FWD'd an email of my senior management responding to a candidate who withdrew their application with us that I found out just how much money someone with a good tenure here has in their ESOP, because they disclosed it. I thought that was a very strange way to try to convince someone to join, as it came off the exact opposite. As I've stepped into the senior consultant side of things, there is a lot of money talk/bragging that I find very unproductive. I've tried to be a voice of reason for our younger workforce and continually reminded upper management and my higher level peers - our Assistant/Staff levels cannot afford rent on their low salaries due to cost of living and debt as a single income "household", and they really really really do not care about the ESOP dream or the promise of a bonus later when they struggle with the day to day finances now. This typically falls on deaf ears because, how are they not excited about the money prospect? I used Aspire for the first time earlier this year (on my team it was never really marketed) and I agree it's not a great tool. Fun to play around with I guess? Not realistic. I think the company as a whole maybe sees the disgruntled pyramid base and are trying to inspire us with dreams of the future. What we want is what we can have now though - a more affordable base salary/bi-weekly paycheck, better PTO/more company holidays, better maternity/paternity leave so we can imagine working here and having a family. When we ask for those things, we're usually just fed the ESOP dream. In my opinion, it's alright once you're in the system for a few years and can better manage your budget based on our pay system, but it really does suck the first few years trying to make it work if it's just you supporting yourself.
I wish you were the CEO. What a breath of fresh air to read this.
Did you get hired straight out of the MacKids Learning Academy?
There ain’t no FU money in engineering… just B&M compensates better than most firms. If there’s FU money in engineering pls let me know 😅
1. Get rid of 401k vesting. Most companies don’t even have a 401k vesting schedule. 2. Reduce ESOP vesting to 4 years
This is just my opinion, but I’d change 401k vesting to like 3 years since that seems typical. It’s a pretty small amount of money anyways so not sure why company cares about gate keeping that. For the ESOP I think the 6 year schedule is okay, I don’t think people should be able to job hop and take equity with them. However what that ESOP is worth at 6 years is another question.
They should let you take your cash contributions with you at 100% if you were to leave before 6 years but 0 stock if you leave early. Forces the company to give younger employees more stock
This is not allowed by law. We have to follow strict regulations since our company pays little to no federal taxes. Burns & Mac is simply a pass-through entity and the tax burden falls on the individual.
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On the contrary once they are fully vested they may be more inclined to stay
Bingo. If it were three I’d be for-sure aiming to stay at least three years. As it is, if my first year esop isn’t very impressive, I’ll probably be back on the market; I can’t commit to that much risk and sunk-cost for that long, on a gamble. Three years, sure, I’d risk it.
you’ve been out of college 3 seconds and new-hires expect Scrooge McDuckian level riches after Year One. maybe have a reasonable expectation of a 30-yr retirement plan and remember how compound interest works? your ESOP will NOT be impressive after 2,000 hours of work. it will be noticeable after your vested, and be mostly impressive after 10-12 years. also, ITS UNEARNED MONEY, they are literally giving you 11-13% of your salary every year. not sure where the disgruntled hate for extra retirement comes from. a LOT of companies only offer 401k match. Aspire says $10M at retirement for a grunt worker (like me) ? might be right, $10M in 2054 might be the same as $3M in 2024. Gen X isn’t going to continue to take care of our Gen Z children into their late 50’s, figured it out or leave, sounds like you’re a burden on the company anyway.
Agree on the 401k vesting but not on the ESOP vesting. Anecdotally, at the 6 year point, you start to see the compounding and share growth work in your favor, and people are more likely to stay.
I don’t use Aspire or when it was the calculator in Excel. In fact, when I used it to calculate just for estimates after a few years, it didn’t meet reality. My first year got me 3 shares and less than 4 digits of cash. I’ve contributed the max to my 401k since I started. At first the 401k was doing better and then slowly the ESOP began to take the lead. Saving for retirement is playing the long game. What I’m starting to see now on all my investments is the compounding. Some years I had more cash than stock value. For the last few years, it’s been about 35% cash. That’s part of my balanced portfolio. With the ESOP, I might just be able to retire earlier than I had expected. I still have some years to go, but the math has been about the same (percentage wise) from year to year. I agree that high earners shouldn’t boast. They think it’s motivating. I always just encourage others to sit down and do the math. Don’t compare yourself to an officer.
For what it’s worth, when I was a new grad I had rent, student loans etc. It’s a part of life, your generation is no different than the ones before you. I’m sure it varies but I can’t recall ever hearing an EO speak about the account balances. I’m sure it does happen, I’ve just not been exposed to it in my time here.
[Housing is 6x median income now, compared to 4x in 2010 and 3x in 1980’s.](https://www.reddit.com/r/economy/s/tTK6onaOhE) I’m sure university costs have escalated similar. For some reason boomers and Gen X don’t like to admit that Gen Z and millennials have a harder time affording COL.
To be honest, I find it very hard to put myself in the younger generations shoes. Yes, I definitely struggled early in my career with rent and student loans, but the price of everything has outpaced income: especially rent, groceries, reliable transportation. And with our culture requiring an "in office" presence with our offices being in urban areas, it's a trade off between long commutes or expensive housing. I think it's one of the reasons the ESOP can be a blessing is disguise as it's a "forced saving" account to help with each EOs future, but our pay structure would make it difficult for a single income household to feel they are getting the most out of life paycheck to paycheck. All of this combined with a senior executive showing our assistant/staff level staff their Principal account... I can see that being a huge sense of resentment/discouragement. I do wish there was a way to be transparent about what people have in their accounts as a sense of "you'll be rewarded here for hard work" without it coming off as showboaty.
I don’t think they taught mathematics and ratios back then. Doesn’t matter, we are still working for *THE* **#1 Engineering Firm in the GALAXY!** *going back to my avocado toast 🥑 *
When I started a new grad salary was $40k, you got $2500 sign on and $1500 year end. After taxes that would be clearing say $35k a year. I remember my first apartment cost $995 plus utilities. All that was included was trash. I just checked and the same floor plan where I was is now $1170 - $1270. I’m not saying you have it better or worse. I’m just saying we all leave college and make entry level salaries.
44k 20 years ago is = 81k now. Pretty good in Kansas.
I really don’t know where you were living if rent only went up 20% in (20-30?) years. Most cities we are talking 300% increases.
My first apartment was in Leawood, Kansas. The same apartment complex is still there under a new name. 20 years.
I am not saying you are wrong, but it would certainly be unusual. My starting floorplan 10 years ago was 750 and is now 1450. doubled in just 10 years. that was in lenexa.
Agree it’s unusual but it’s correct, unless the pricing posted online is wrong. The place sucked to be honest and was impossible to keep cool in the warm months. Could just be demand is there at that specific property. It’s near Town Center.
I’m a 90s millennial. Working here, my compensation has allowed me (with a large family) to live extremely comfortably and then some. You act like you’re making minimum wage.