Most of them learned about economics on YT, watching crypto-related videos made by people who need other people to become exit liquidity for their own bags
It's a classic that sensational news sell. USD is collapsing!! Your money will be 10% less worth in 5 years!! Inflation!! Banks take your money as hostages!!! That's why you hear their dumb takes
They're sifting information and only keep what validates their vision
Keep in mind also that the crypto cycle (it goes up then it crashes then it goes up higher then it crashes then...) did not get a counterexample yet, when it crashes *hard* before reaching previous ATH. So they're still adamant this will go on forever
Why would they want facts about situations going wrong? Why do you want to ruin their Care Bears vision?
I think we're overlooking the allure of crypto to a certain type of individual. While I agree that most "smart" people avoid crypto, that doesn't mean that all do. I know multiple Ivy League grads who are deep into cryptocurrency and see it as another pathway to success.
The same reason people have lost $75B in Pig Butchering scams apply to crypto investing as well. Greed, trust, and yearning for connection override the basic common sense and better intuition of many individuals sadly.
You are exactly proving the point others and I have brought up. All you care about is number going up and not all the issues with the tech and use of crypto.
>I know multiple Ivy League grads who are deep into cryptocurrency and see it as another pathway to success.
You can kind of see why, given that SBF was *this close* to turning run-of-the-mill Ivy League multimillionaire money into top-table billionaire money. All he had to do was resist the temptation to steal customer beans that weren't even worth anything.
There's going to be a lot of kids burning through their trust funds thinking they can do what SBF did only without the part where he went to jail.
You CAN make a lot of money on BitCoin....understanding that it's a horseshit scam and you need a bunch of other morons to buy in so you can buy out.
It can be worth buying a bunch when it crashes out, because it's something of a self perpetuating cult that'll keep re-inflating the bubble.
All of this. It's interesting who does and who does not get into it. I think it follows mathematics and computer science knowledge, but I have also seen philosophers opposed. In particular no mathematician is. The ones who did like halfin changed their mind on it very early on.
Seriously. Look at how often people spend their bitcoins. They don't, they buy and hold, because they have reason to believe that their bitcoin will be worth more later. That's why bitcoin will never work as a currency, there's almost no motive to actually spend it or invest it into something productive.
Yea, that is problem with all deflationary currencies in general - why would i invest it when i can just hold it forever and still get profits?
There is also problem with debts increasing their values too.
First off, inflation is seen as a whole and the rising cost of homes due to corporate monopolies is driving that up. Second, salaries also rise with inflation. Third, extreme volatility in a currency isn’t a selling point you moron.
And don't you see a problem at all with that? Laying aside that you are justifying inflation, do you *actually* consider this pace sustainable and *unharmful*? Are you trying to convince me, that for the average Joe, QOL hasn't come down noticeably and the salaries were able to keep up with inflation? 🤣
Paint me surprised, demand is driving up Bitcoin's price parabolically, and those who are in early actually get a lucrative investment in return 😱
To break this news to you, Bitcoin fixes inflation, most notably, hyperinflation, that Biden bucks are doomed to be the victim of. Bitcoin also can't give you common sense, as it can't cure you out of greed, if that matters
Imagine the government telling you that they're targeting 2% inflation a year and you act surprised when inflation happens.
Takes a special sort of stupid to be surprised in that situation
Number go up in the stockmarket represents economic growth and the value added by publicly listed businesses to their inputs.
Number go up in crypto represents people losing their bags or being forced to dump at a loss.
You mean the two dumbest groups when it comes to scams? Who other than teens were fucking with NFTs? Who do you think perfected the stay at home MLM model? Stop your projecting
Austrian school weirdos, goldbugs, silverbugs -- lots of overlap with butters. And then there are the young, dumb types. Either they think they're smarter than everyone despite being wrong, or they're just dumb and uneducated in general. Both groups are suckers and easy marks, which explains the overlap.
Precious metals are typically poor investments. They're commodities, so at best should be treated as inflation hedges.
Lots of weird fucks out there scamming and doing the same shit as crypto dweebs, they've just been doing it way longer.
Sadly, many are now rich and that includes a relative of mine who fell down the internet rabbit hole of truthers, gold bugs, and other conspiracy crap. A consequence was that his easily led mind picked up on BTC relatively early on. It's kind of galling to see his character faults rewarded so.
> many are now rich
Do you think there are more people getting rich than people having fun getting poor?
*Some* are now rich, and you usually only hear from them.
The majority that lost money is silent
Also, did your relative actually cash out, or is he rich on paper only?
99% of people that purchased bitcoin and did not sell are in profit. I expect downvotes but please don't ban me. I do genuinely enjoy reading good conflicting information
> 99% of people that purchased bitcoin and did not sell are in profit
Good luck enjoying your profits if you didn't sell
Does your local lambo retailer acccepts theoretical profits as a payment method?
No, I'm too dumb to take profit. I'd rather wait for the price to drop and then be forced to sell due to some financial emergency. I just wanted to point out your point was (all be it temporarily) partially incorrect
That's a tautology. There's no cash flow from bitcoin ownership, so the only reason anyone has profited is they convinced other people not to sell. The people with unrealized profits are known as bagholders.
The only way you lose money on bitcoin is you have zero understanding how the 4-year halving cycles work and you buy the tippy top. And even then you just hold for 4 years and go back into steep profits.
Because 50% of you will be pumping my bags at the peak in summer 2025. And I'll be selling every single bitcoin I own to you then. The cycle will keep repeating until you guys learn.
Um. You just said the quiet part out loud, that you're expecting people to provide you exit liquidity so you can sell all your Bitcoin. On a certain level then, you understand that you're hoping to get rich by leaving others holding overpriced bags because Bitcoin is not worth that much.
What a wild take. Your relative is doing well in life and your reaction is to say it’s sad and to shit on them. Pretty sad existence if you care so much about some obscure ideology that you’d bag on your family because they’re doing well, just because you don’t agree with their investment strategy. I hope you can find some positivity in life because negative emotions and energy are contagious and the people around you probably don’t deserve that kind of energy dragging them down constantly.
It's speculation (aka gambling) not investing.
My relative is doing well from a financial point of view but not in life, in general. They are fairly antisocial and do a very low status job. They have not made any kind of career for themselves, and spent all their free time on the internet absorbing wack job stuff from truthers to COVID conspiracy theories.
In short, they have not become a mature adult in the world. They got into crypto by way of being a gold/silver bug. Crypto confirms their bleak world view where ever authority is to be evaluated with the utmost cynicism.
Making money from holding crypto is validating their immaturity and childish view of the world.
Lol, the Austrian school literally disavows the use of data or the scientific method in their "theories" in favor of praxeology - running imaginary thought experiments in your mind. It could not be further from "proven".
It has no basis in reality, forget "proven to work".
Lol.
Working insofar as it is making the rich even richer by helping them accumulate even more wealth. I mean, every capitalist system does that but austrian economics turbocharges it
just because you took a basic class in high school doesn't mean you absorbed it. or agree with it. or anything at all. i took it as a freshmen but i barely remember anything about that class. i'm trying to think of the teacher's name but i'm really struggling.
anyway, what matters is the present and learning the basics of any field is very easy. but it's also very easy to learn those basics from con artists. which the crypto space is rife with.
> "the US government prints money out of thin air", to "Bitcoin is superior to the barter system", to "banks are bad",
The thing that kills me is, while we might not put it so simply, most of us are probably on the same page about the problems with the "traditional" financial system. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Financial institutions behave irresponsibly, costing people Joba and homes, and face no consequences.
There's always a leap in logic though. We agree that there is a problem, but that doesn't mean crypto is the answer to that problem. All of these economic problems can be real... and still leave crypto as a dangerous, volatile, unregulated "asset" that sane people wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.
Yes, I know my house is on fire. No, I don't want to buy your snake oil to put that fire out. Snake oil is not a fire suppressant, no matter how many times you insist otherwise.
There are plenty of problems with the real financial system. Crypto accelerates all of the worst aspects of the modern financial system and eschews all of the learnings from centuries of financial evolution.
That does not mean all elements of the modern financial system are bad. We've learned a lot, and systems / structures like banks are insanely economically productive / valuable.
I'm willing to start here and have a discussion about the pros and cons of 'provable' digital assets, and how it can impact the current financial system.
I think things like regulation and anonymity and trustlessness are issues worth discussing.
i can’t speak to brigadiers but in real life, yeah, there are a lot of people we would otherwise consider highly intelligent that fully unironically believe in bitcoin. they can have well-educated discussions about it, but have drank the koolaid in various respects. e.g. folks with ivy league educations (and not just in computer science), harvard MBAs, experience at top consulting firms, or whatever else. a lot of them have plenty of exposure to monetary policy and can speak on it intelligently otherwise. i know folks who went to wharton who’ve obviously taken plenty of econ classes that think ethereum will change the world.
IMO it’s usually one of three things driving it:
1. they have a track record of success, and have maybe even made hundreds of thousands of dollars on this (or more). that sort of confirmation bias is extremely hard to shake. plenty of successful, smart people have a difficult time recognizing the role luck has played in their success.
2. they’re too in the weeds—they are so extensively familiar with edge cases, nuances, and likely the technology itself, that they’ve completely missed the forest for the trees.
3. they are surrounded by people who reaffirm their beliefs and feel a sense of self-righteousness about their mission. when they do encounter people who disagree, points (1) & (2) above help them debate others into submission. the average person doesn’t care to know everything about crypto, so they are used to winning “debates”.
framing that helps me understand this phenomenon is looking at unrelated examples where highly intelligent people consistently arrive at conclusions i don’t consider practical. e.g., consider how well-educated, informed, and credentialed some of the folks at the CATO institute are, and then consider how out-of-touch with reality some of their takes are regardless.
I know 3 butters IRL. One is a successful small-town dentist. One is my local delivery box truck driver who calls himself "The CEO of my own crypto-currency exchange". One is my 75 year old mother. All of these people own Buttcoin because someone they trust told them to buy and hodl. None of these people know anything about computers or economics.
This scam has always been a confidence game. Brigaders come here to exercise their con man skills, I assume to practice for real life conversations they need to have with potential new bag holders. This is why it all sounds so repetitive - they're regurgitating the same lines that got them hooked in the first place to see if it'll work on someone new. /r/buttcoin is full of skeptics, so it's a good place to practice conning dupes with poor critical thinking skills.
Yeah I think this is the axiom. Less maths or compsi ∝ more Buttcoin. Try telling a mathematician he should put a cent into some dumb shit that doubled up on non-injective functions.
yeah there’s definitely a broad spectrum of people into crypto, just like with other areas. i wouldn’t compare the average person on any of the GME subs to someone who works as a quant on wall street (i’m 100% not trying to draw a parallel b/w crypto nerds and quants precisely, just a parallel to highlight the breadth of people interested in certain subjects).
Ivy League diplomas and Harvard MBAs are only meaningful because rich people who send their kids to those places want you to believe it so. But the diplomas aren't worth the paper used to print them. There are remarkably high levels of ignorance and idiocy at the Ivies.
The current measles outbreak in Florida is the work of a Harvard grad.
yeah i disagree
those brand names don’t have value just bc of marketing efforts from rich people; they have brand value cus the admissions process is super competitive, and you generally have to prove yourself along a couple dimensions (GPA, standardized test scores, work experience, some other extraordinary distinguishing characteristics, idk) to get in.
whatever they’re teaching at harvard prob isn’t meaningfully different than what they’re teaching anywhere else, but by most metrics we’d use to measure intelligence, the avg student there is pretty fucking smart. i didn’t go to an ivy league myself and i’m not saying this is a holistic way to judge intelligence, but we can look @ empirical data to substantiate this stuff. i just intended to use it as an example.
edit: i don’t necessarily disagree with your edits, just the original version. i think my original comment above is in agreement with some of what you’re saying re: ignorance
When a school accepts students because of legacy or their parent's donations, its academic reputation should absolutely be called into question. Dumb rich kids get into the Ivys. And dumb rich kids graduate from Harvard.
As far as competition to get in? Acceptance ratios only reflect the number of people who applied vs the number of available seats. That. Is. It. So if 90 bajillion people apply to Harvard and only 2000 get in, yes, the ratio is high but it doesn't mean that the school itself is any more competitive academically. Once kids are in, there is a desire to keep their parents happy by allowing the kids to graduate regardless of how smart they are. Grade inflation at Ivies and other private schools is rampant because no one wants to donate millions only to have little Teddy drop out because he can't hack it.
Knowing several products of Harvard's grad schools (Kennedy and biz) who are at varying levels of success, the only differences among them are their own drives. One friend is a K-school grad who is quietly successful and well-respected in the non-profit world. Another is a stoner who still lives with their parents and hasn't been in the workforce for over a decade. Another is a fail-forward brunchlord who only manages to get jobs because of their scintillating bro-ness. One of them got in because they're really fucking smart (easily one of the smartest people I've ever met), one got in because they were an acceptance committee's diversity wet-dream and the other one had 2 generations of Harvard grads behind him. Guess which one is the brunchlord...
i disagree with your premise (we can get median GPA, SAT score, earnings, whatever, for yale grads vs SUNY buffalo if we want), but since this is so tangential to the subject at hand, i’m gonna bow out.
my overarching point is that there are people who are very well-versed in monetary policy that still regurgitate BTC talking points, + some guesses as to why.
I had some hilarious conversations this weekend at a wedding with people that were "into crypto".
It went from "you should sell your house, your car and everything of value you own \*right now\* and buy crypto" with one guy and another one showing a graph from his ibu shiba (or something like that) coin going up "35% in one day yesterday" so I asked what 1 coin was worth now and it was $ 0,0000135. When I asked how much he bought his coins for and how long he was hodling now all he could say was "look at bitcoin. all these coins are going up soon".
Gave me a good chuckle.
I don't get why they have to pretend to care about Bitcoin as a currency when it's up, like you should be shamelessly selling for dirty fiat rn not talking about how it's the future of money. Save this Bitcoin as a currency talk for when the price crashes and you are desperate for bagholders
>Have they never heard of what a monetary policy is? Do they understand what inflation is? Have they never looked up the case of the Zimbabwean dollar? Have they never learned about the history of money, as in how we went from bartering to using commodities as money to using the gold standard to using the Bretton Woods system to the current system? Have they never heard about why deflation is bad (hi Japan) or how it sucks for people with debt?
They know the Austrian economic memes they parrot.
As a note: there is no substantial evidence that suggests money started from barter. Anthropological arguments imply credit first, representational units second.
Can argue that gold standards were also a bit of a misnomer. As soon as English banks could provide sterling to the breadth of the empire, *sterling itself* priced gold.. and not the other way around. Same goes for the dollar as American banking expanded.
Bretton Woods was dead on arrival, since banks were already laying the groundwork to lend USD into existence *outside* of the domestic oversight of the Federal Reserve, undermining any meaningful gold backing.
...only bringing this up because it dispels their chosen boogeymen.
As for Japan, oh my yes.. the example is a monumental one. They rail against "central bank money printing/government debt monetization", yet Japan sits as a beacon of the most robust reserve issuance... *with minimal to non-existent* inflation.
You'd figure the obvious contradiction would give them pause.
> You'd figure the obvious contradiction would give them pause.
If I’ve learned one thing, it’s that they are not self-reflective or able to think critically, even of their own ideas.
I’m just always surprised how they keep talking about a future wide spread use of bitcoin to be used to pay for everything while at the same time they hodl forever because tmr it might be “worth” so much more than it is today. Those two things seem to be buying each other a bit.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Anecdotally the cousin of mine who got big into influencer grifts/crypto/nfts/memestocks before getting pantsed on them all did the bare minimum of math in HS and didn't do anything finance related.
I love the kid but these scams love people who don't have the math/finance/historical knowledge to realize why the bag of beans you're being sold aren't actually all that magical.
USD isn’t printed out of thin air, but it is more or less a controlled ledger where the circulating supply is increased at a rate subject to 9 human beings that none of us have a say in.
Yeah, dude. Took economics in college. Companies are boring, I don't wanna invest in those. Cute animals are king. It's a game. Without a House. Or lottery people taking your money, reducing your odds. Cell phones are new, man. So is the internet. What makes you think that stores of value wouldn't evolve. It's fun, and could be risky. But attractive to a layperson. But macroeconomical implications. Really good for the economy. If there's a sector booming, you don't wanna crash it, you want it to boom. Healthier than scratch-off tickets. But it really is more than that. But I know you don't think that.
I treat Bitcoin (and other cryptos) as a risky stock. Would I invest all my money into it? Hell no. Has it been working well for me so far? Definitely. Another reason why I like to invest in it are the tax laws in my country. Holding cryptos for more than a year allows me to sell them tax free which does not work for regular stocks. Sure, I pay a fee when selling but that fee is way lower than the amount of taxes I would have to pay on regular stocks.
Background since you have asked for it: Master‘s degree in Business (focus on management)
I know this drum gets banged a lot but "The Bitcoin Standard", despite its name, is really like 80% about the history of currency and monetary systems and addresses so much of what you mention here. And certainly some inflation is good, but not what the US has going on currently. Case in point, while BTC touched its previous ATH today at $67.5k, this is only ***nominally*** an ATH due to massive inflation since 2021. It's real ATH adjusted for how much the dollar has weakened in the last three years will be more like $77-78k.
>is really like 80% about the history of currency and monetary systems and addresses so much of what you mention here
Except that it [doesn't](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/s/hsyiTx8RNn). It's as selective a telling of monetary history as I've ever seen. Grand omissions to tell the story in the way that suits the thesis.
>These days, money is an electronic ledger managed by global banks (certainly not "government provided legal tender" in any appreciable sense).
Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? I may be misunderstanding the scope you are gesturing to when you say this, but it sounds as if you propose that government fiat (and its inflation as a consequence of government printing) is insignificant relative to the policy decisions of private banks. Unless perhaps you are putting the Federal Reserve in with that lot?
You need to elaborate on the alleged question. And clean it up. If you aren't doing this on purpose, then fuck, good luck. I'll try to help.
1. "Money printing" is, yes, either fucking irrelevant (normal functional operation of physical currency creation/destruction, run by dork ass engineers) or non-existent (an analogy for various macro-economic policy decisions, specifically usually the baseline interest rate). Which one of those are you asking about?
2. If you are ESL, never use the word "gesture" to refer to anything other than a physical motion. Badwrong. If not, then idk you're probably doing this shit on purpose. Its no one's fault this is the dichotomy, unless it's yours.
3. "Inflation"/"deflation" are inherent behavioral models for macro-economic trends. They don't have anything to do with "printing", but I want to make a larger point: Next time someone tells you that everyone is a fucking idiot becuase "XYZ is obvious" just take that as a red flag.
4. IDK if this is it, but "yes", the general macroeconomic system in place in the US and thus affecting the globe, is to generally let the private market run itself, with very little regulation and oversight from anyone, period. These motherfucking criminals still think that is too much, and the motherfucking lolbertarians are trying to unalive society, and people like you are here "just asking questions" fuck.
>IDK if this is it, but "yes", the general macroeconomic system in place in the US and thus affecting the globe, is to generally let the private market run itself, with very little regulation and oversight from anyone, period.
This is it, without my meandering. For all its benefits and faults.
Its called "hypercapitalism" generally, and it's a fucking probably fatal disaster for humanity. Too bad we had to wait on the monoculture to literally die from old age. Regardless, "crypto" is a distraction from this essential cause, not a help in anyway, but a hindrance, thus the veiled unkindness.
"Fatal disaster" as your spoiled self lives in the richest country on earth, highest life expectancy in human history, with more expendable income than any other time in human history.
Not relatively, on that last bit, but how the fuck are you getting me being spoiled, a random American? Pssh. Typical non-American arrogance, for shame for shame. And, wait, that second to last bit is false. Wait, that second bit is false too, both relative and objective....you could argue a single definition but I'll let you find it if you can, few. So that's 0/4. Oof.
With respect-- as I appreciate you typed out quite a lot-- the other fellow's response to me was much more helpful and far less antagonistic. Try a kinder tact in the future. Or if you think every dissenting/questioning opinion on the subreddit is secretly just a troll or asking in bad faith, don't bother engaging at all. It's not good for your health.
And for the record, it is perfectly fine to use "gesture" to describe a non-physical signaling. So says my humanities PhD!
What university/name, I'll send them an email. Do what you want, it will 100% confuse people, but it's your diction.
Feel free to point out exactly what was unkind.
>if you aren't doing this on purpose, then fuck, good luck
>
>dork ass engineers (???)
>
>ESL ; badwrong
>
>people like you are here "just asking questions" fuck.
>is insignificant relative to the ~~policy decisions~~ *activities* of private banks.
There.. now I agree with the statement fully. Yes, that is what I'm suggesting. There is no "government printing" in any significant fashion in most of the developed world.
This is going to be a mechanical description, starting with what gets called "printing"... (But really isn't). A government creates/encourages a market for their debt. Specialized banking institutions apply to bid at initial auctions of this debt (called Primary Dealers in the US).
Primary Dealers are obliged to purchase the debt, but immediately facilitate a secondary market for the debt instruments. The debt is mostly acquired via the ability of global banks and near-banks balance sheets to absorb the issuance on the secondary market. These global banks provide the *real dollars* that can be used for fiscal policies by the government.
Demand for a countries debt = ability to sustain deficit spending.
Treasuries themselves are the most sought collateral for the repo market (a global wholesale funding market), which banks use to fund themselves/adequately circulate dollars as needed. Institutions can pledge and re-pledge government debt certificates to obtain overnight "cash". So, plenty of demand for such instruments.. even if some debt auctions may appear weaker at any given time.
Central Banks don't really factor in any major sense. They can create "reserves", which are a line item stored in a database at the central bank (they do not circulate beyond this, and can only be held by and transferred to memeber banks). Reserves are not spent in the real economy (despite superficial definitions of QE).
So, ultimately whether money was "printed" or not... depends on whether global commercial banks created more deposits/commercial bank ledger money to fund the purchases of government debt.
If commercial banks lent more money into existence, money was printed. If they did not.. then government auctions are just funded via a redistribution of the existing supply of commercial bank money.
> And certainly some inflation is good, but not what the US has going on currently.
Deflation is worse. And US inflation currently is almost at target.
The Fed does print money out of thin air. The "debt" created is an illusion. How else would we have a positive sum game that holds the house of cards. For now, anyway. But i agree with everything else. Bitcoin won't solve any monetary or inflationary "problem". In fact, it'll make it worse. If we suddenly didn't have an option to ever do a QE there'd be blood on the streets in no time.
I’m getting a grad degree in economics and I am heavily invested in bitcoin. The future of finance is on the blockchain. Many Ivy Leagues now teach on it or researching future use cases/ monetary policy shifts.
The fact that it has limited supply?
Economy is changing and expanding over time thanks to technological progress, which means that there will be less coins to chase after more stuff.
That is deflation.
But you’re not going to sell one BTC for consumer products. That’s a very simplistic version of how inflation works. Yes it occurs to some degree how you’ve outlined, but there has been zero done in product demand price discovery with BTC as true currency. There’s also a case to be made that not all deflationary events are bad. For instance technology itself is deflationary in some aspects but it also increases overall production which contributes to gdp increase.
> But you’re not going to sell one BTC for consumer products.
You don't need to circulate currency for the price to change - the fact that you are witholding currency in the first place decreases supply, thus pushing price upwards.
Also what do you mean by "sell" - in this scenario, BTC would be main currency.
---
> There’s also a case to be made that not all deflationary events are bad.
Nobody said that. What we say is that deflation caused by bitcoin would cripple any economy that would seriously use it as currency.
---
> For instance technology itself is deflationary in some aspects but it also increases overall production which contributes to gdp increase.
....what? We are talking about currency.
The Ivy League itself is made up of exactly eight universities. How many is many?
And that's under the generous assumption that you meant Ivy League universities and don't just assume Ivy League means university, which is far more likely given the profile.
It's very unusual for people to receive education in economics. It's also an intellectually bereft discipline mostly studied by people looking to get in on the grift.
You can't expect people to have been educated in finance before they put their (real) money somewhere, much like you can't expect someone to get a degree in theology before forming an opinion on religion.
I think, though, that it's perfectly fair to relentlessly mock people for failing to see a very obvious scam for what it is.
Most of the successful crypto traders I see are either software engineers or entrepreneurs. The former for their knowledge and the latter for their risk taking capabilities.
Why yes I have actually. I have a Computer Engineering Degree with a Minor in Economics. I currently have a DevOps / GitOps related job at an equities / options exchange.
I have 99.03% of my digital wealth (currencies / investments) in BTC and it has been doing me very well.
Please snap out of this psychosis / cult like mentality. There are people that can draw logical connections that some of you are incapable of. I am sorry that many of you aren't very gifted, but use that knowledge to listen to those that have more intellectual capabilities.
Personally, I believe BTC will have the next low of around $40-45k at some point in our life, but that's it. You very likely will never see the price of bitcoin lower than that for the rest of your lifetime. So please, on the next down swing, just buy it already... Many of you were eying it since it was \~300 dollars, hell, some of you even a dollar.
You guys are in the cult. It's a useless currency with heavily manipulated price. There are zero expected returns and zero value generated. Any analyst can tell you the expected return of an asset with no interest dividends or growth... You guys are all retarded
Thats really bad mate, you have failed in both your major and minor fields if you think the blockchain is useful for anything. Go back to school mate.
>There are people that can draw logical connections that some of you are incapable of.
Give us ONE such logical connection, PLEASE. We have been begging you for this for more than a decade, PLEASE.
This sub-reddit cannot wrap their mind around BTC being a store of value. They cling to their dollars and index funds waiting for the government to issue more debt.
Yes. In 2014 I kept saying how stupid BTC was and it made no sense at all. Then I thought, what if it follows the simple laws of supply and demand where you have a fixed supply of something and increasing demand over a time period.
I decided to put 5% of my investable money into it to see what happens.
Limited Supply + Increasing Demand means price can only go one way.
I'm a former financial planner - and I've been DCA into BTC (not other cryptos) since then. And I continue to do so. With the approval and availability of ETFs in Fidelity it meant I could move some of my money into a ROTH for tax purposes, which was a nice game changer for me.
(Prepared to get downvoted for this - but it's my serious take)
If your premises are wrong the conclusion is as well. Increasing demand is not guaranteed which means that the price in fact can go very much both ways.
Absolutely - but I was looking at over a long term. I knew full well demand could absolutely go down and it would fizzle out.
But that is how I broke it down to a simple look at supply and demand. I don't think it will ever be a global currency or replace fiat anywhere.
>But that is how I broke it down to a simple look at supply and demand. I don't think it will ever be a global currency or replace fiat anywhere.
This is the most important point you're saying vs all of the people pumping Cryptos. They sell the idea that this is the currency of the world and everyone is going to use it...
They were saying when Bitcoin first started trading. They say it today when its value is high in fiat.
> Increasing Demand
Do you know that the laws of supply and demand have a concept called elasticity?
Do you think the demand for something with no inherent value is elastic or inelastic? What do you think that means for the price?
> Limited Supply + Increasing Demand means price can only go one way.
And this is exactly why it would be shitty currency. Currency was never supposed to rot under your bed.
It’s worth considering allocating a small % of your investments to something more high risk, but with the potential for high growth, with the idea that you may lose some or all of the initial investment.
This doesn’t mean BTC or crypto. Could be QQQ vs SPY, a rental property in an up and coming neighborhood, a limited release LEGO set you think may be worth 3x more in a few years, whatever.
Risk-free (US Treasuries, CDs, etc) is around 4-5%, so high growth would be whatever you think decently beats that over the next 1-5-10 years or whenever youll need or want to use those invested funds.
This is all pretty standard advice that even the staunchest value bogglehead would likely agree with.
Just my two, maybe worthless, sats.
Into something that had the potential to increase in demand over the next decade. I wasn't saying you should do the same, but that's how I approached it. And putting 5% of a portfolio into "risky assets" is a completely normal approach.
The irony of all of this is that this subreddit, and by affiliation doomers like bitfinexed, are themselves a big funnel and on-boarder of people to crypto. They help spread what they manifestly hate! That’s the best part!
How many people have walked the path from curiosity TO thinking it’s all a scam TO realizing emotionally irrational ppl no matter the side are stupid TO investigating things themselves TO opening an account on coinbase. I bet a fair number!
From buttcoin to bitcoin. Never bitcoin to buttcoin.
It would be a greater phenomenon if all these intellectuals created a self fulfilling prophecy in our society and this goes on 100+ years. Whether it’s right or wrong, if people believe it has value it will maintain its growth.
There is a better alternative theory of money, and that is the commodity theory (and its principles of sound money) and posts like this seem to only recognize that modern monetary theory (aka the State theory of money) is the only valid way of thinking about money.
Both can co-exist in parallel with each other. Like fiat and gold have. The problem is the further fiat gets away from some kind of pegged commodity the more leeway our banking system and federal government have with debasing the currency. Debasement absolutely eviscerates the lower and middle classes while benefitting the asset holders.
We simply want better. We want rules, not rulers.
MMT is actually largely disputed by the economics community. It's shitty economic theory.
Commodity money is shit money, hence why no one uses it anymore.
You actually can't debase fiat currency, you can however debase commodity money.
If you don't want rulers, don't peg your future economic hopes on an insanely concentrated, utterly useless token owned by few rich, powerful early adopters who are rich solely by virtue of buying early.
"You actually can't debase fiat money"
Sorry what? That's the whole point of it. State actors and bankers specifically like the flexibility of the money supply because it gives them control over the public coffers.
You can't debase gold, or BTC, that's the point of natural hard limits. Unless for gold, you found some new deposit of it, but that can only last so long and there's only so much gold in the earth. BTC on the other hand can't be debased whatsoever.
Debase: "lower the value of (coinage) by reducing the content of precious metal."
By definition, the classic example of "debasing money" is debasing gold/ commodity-based currency. You absolutely can debase gold.
> BTC, that's the point of natural hard limits.
Sorry to break it to you, but they absolutely can dilute the number of BTC out there.
Ok lets stick to the strict definition everything. You know what I mean. You're right though that's what they used to do way back, the emperor or king would recall all the coinage and re issue it back with a slightly lower quantity. Debasement CAN encompass fiat in the broadly understood definition of debasement, many economists use the term debasement to describe inflation. Whether or not "technically speaking" is can happen to fiat... the loss of purchasing power over time is fundamental to fiat.
And BTC COULD technically be diluted, if all the BTC maxis and hardheards and devs suddenly turn 180 and vote to enter that into the base layer. And it would have to be a huge majority, but that's never going to happen. That is the draw of Bitcoin for us commodity money folks.
There is actually a MASSIVE supply shortage right now:
1) ETF volume is driving a ton of new volume
2) Microstrategy and other large institutions ars purchasing Billions of USD (10ks of BTC) regularly
3) exchanges are low on btc remaining
4) upcoming halving will make the supply per day lower
5) upcoming halving ans fomo from price increase will bring a ton of media and news about btc, bringing smaller new investors into btc.
So yes. Supply/demand is the reason why bitcoin has been climbing. Is it the best technology in the world?.. Definately not, but it is secure ebough and not as inflationary as USD.
Other coins or currencies have equal or better techbology, but BTC was early and will remain the gold standard of crypto coins.
You've been fed propaganda, not an education.
Money supply inflation devalues earnings and savings and transfers that value into the pockets of political parasites. Why do you think someone should use fiat unless they're forced to?
Inflation also stimulates spending on non-essential items, thus fostering a culture of mindless consumerism. In contrast, deflation tends to promote frugality and a focus on necessary purchases, as well as saving for tomorrow.
All that matters is that you make da money.
Explain why WoW gold has value or steam cards.
Mtg is just cardboard.
All that matters with most things is how popular it is. Don't overthink it
Prefixing your (rhetorical) question with "serious" doesn't make it so.
Would you take a bitcoiner seriously if they said that they have a PhD in economics? I feel like the answer is no.
Bitcoiners (at least some) have considered those questions. They do not agree with the answers that you think are obvious.
I'd call myself pro-bitcoin and I'm in my third year at university studying finance. So I've had many classes on the history of money, monetary policy, the business of the banking system, etc. I'd say claims that it can be a viable replacement for fiat is highly questionable at best. I do think it's hard to argue against its status as an emerging young asset class though. BlackRock doesn't bring in $10 billion in two months for a complete scam, imho.
Bitcoin is an escape valve from the government controlled, centralized financial system. The ability to store value over decades and transfer money immediately and without conditions.
Sure it does, only 21 million supply means nobody can devalue my coins. It's why the US dollar is worth 20% less the last 5 years while Bitcoin is 1660% more.
Bitcoin is centralized when an overwhelming majority of it is held in exchanges with all the keys and wallets belonging to the exchange. They may give you access believing you own something.
But in cases like FTX, they can say fuck you and rug pull it.
Most of them learned about economics on YT, watching crypto-related videos made by people who need other people to become exit liquidity for their own bags It's a classic that sensational news sell. USD is collapsing!! Your money will be 10% less worth in 5 years!! Inflation!! Banks take your money as hostages!!! That's why you hear their dumb takes They're sifting information and only keep what validates their vision Keep in mind also that the crypto cycle (it goes up then it crashes then it goes up higher then it crashes then...) did not get a counterexample yet, when it crashes *hard* before reaching previous ATH. So they're still adamant this will go on forever Why would they want facts about situations going wrong? Why do you want to ruin their Care Bears vision?
I can only assume these people, if speaking in good faith, have major trust issues and more than a dash of main character syndrome.
So libertarians?
I think we're overlooking the allure of crypto to a certain type of individual. While I agree that most "smart" people avoid crypto, that doesn't mean that all do. I know multiple Ivy League grads who are deep into cryptocurrency and see it as another pathway to success. The same reason people have lost $75B in Pig Butchering scams apply to crypto investing as well. Greed, trust, and yearning for connection override the basic common sense and better intuition of many individuals sadly.
There are multiple people with PhDs and doctorates who believe that the Earth is flat. Unfortunately education is not the panacea we hoped it would.
How will you feel when Bitcoin goes to 50 million PHP? Will BTC holders still be idiots? Will you be upset you missed the boat.
You are exactly proving the point others and I have brought up. All you care about is number going up and not all the issues with the tech and use of crypto.
>I know multiple Ivy League grads who are deep into cryptocurrency and see it as another pathway to success. You can kind of see why, given that SBF was *this close* to turning run-of-the-mill Ivy League multimillionaire money into top-table billionaire money. All he had to do was resist the temptation to steal customer beans that weren't even worth anything. There's going to be a lot of kids burning through their trust funds thinking they can do what SBF did only without the part where he went to jail.
You CAN make a lot of money on BitCoin....understanding that it's a horseshit scam and you need a bunch of other morons to buy in so you can buy out. It can be worth buying a bunch when it crashes out, because it's something of a self perpetuating cult that'll keep re-inflating the bubble.
All of this. It's interesting who does and who does not get into it. I think it follows mathematics and computer science knowledge, but I have also seen philosophers opposed. In particular no mathematician is. The ones who did like halfin changed their mind on it very early on.
The smart ones are the ones running scams lol No one smart actually believes in it
Close, but USD is actually worth 20% less than 5 years ago while Bitcoin is worth 1660% more.
Yea, and if USD was as deflationary as bitcoin, it would be catastrophic for economy.
Seriously. Look at how often people spend their bitcoins. They don't, they buy and hold, because they have reason to believe that their bitcoin will be worth more later. That's why bitcoin will never work as a currency, there's almost no motive to actually spend it or invest it into something productive.
Yea, that is problem with all deflationary currencies in general - why would i invest it when i can just hold it forever and still get profits? There is also problem with debts increasing their values too.
Good parrot
Good donkey
You must be popular during highschool recess with those taunts
Show me where he's wrong buttcoin bro🤓 He's owned ya at your own argument lmao
First off, inflation is seen as a whole and the rising cost of homes due to corporate monopolies is driving that up. Second, salaries also rise with inflation. Third, extreme volatility in a currency isn’t a selling point you moron.
And don't you see a problem at all with that? Laying aside that you are justifying inflation, do you *actually* consider this pace sustainable and *unharmful*? Are you trying to convince me, that for the average Joe, QOL hasn't come down noticeably and the salaries were able to keep up with inflation? 🤣 Paint me surprised, demand is driving up Bitcoin's price parabolically, and those who are in early actually get a lucrative investment in return 😱
The biggest driver of inflation is corporate greed. Please explain how bitcoin fixes how corporations price their products and services.
To break this news to you, Bitcoin fixes inflation, most notably, hyperinflation, that Biden bucks are doomed to be the victim of. Bitcoin also can't give you common sense, as it can't cure you out of greed, if that matters
Imagine the government telling you that they're targeting 2% inflation a year and you act surprised when inflation happens. Takes a special sort of stupid to be surprised in that situation
Yeah the "number go up" is just such a total slam dunk
People use "number go up" for the stock market
It's literally shares of the economy. "Number goes up" for an actual reason rather than wishful thinking
Number go up in the stockmarket represents economic growth and the value added by publicly listed businesses to their inputs. Number go up in crypto represents people losing their bags or being forced to dump at a loss.
I always forget this sub-reddit is mostly teenagers and soccer moms.
You mean the two dumbest groups when it comes to scams? Who other than teens were fucking with NFTs? Who do you think perfected the stay at home MLM model? Stop your projecting
Gotta hurt being this clueless
The fact this simple statement triggers you so much speaks volumes.
Austrian school weirdos, goldbugs, silverbugs -- lots of overlap with butters. And then there are the young, dumb types. Either they think they're smarter than everyone despite being wrong, or they're just dumb and uneducated in general. Both groups are suckers and easy marks, which explains the overlap.
Precious metals are actually tangible, useful, and good to have at least some of though.
Precious metals are typically poor investments. They're commodities, so at best should be treated as inflation hedges. Lots of weird fucks out there scamming and doing the same shit as crypto dweebs, they've just been doing it way longer.
Sadly, many are now rich and that includes a relative of mine who fell down the internet rabbit hole of truthers, gold bugs, and other conspiracy crap. A consequence was that his easily led mind picked up on BTC relatively early on. It's kind of galling to see his character faults rewarded so.
> many are now rich Do you think there are more people getting rich than people having fun getting poor? *Some* are now rich, and you usually only hear from them. The majority that lost money is silent Also, did your relative actually cash out, or is he rich on paper only?
99% of people that purchased bitcoin and did not sell are in profit. I expect downvotes but please don't ban me. I do genuinely enjoy reading good conflicting information
> 99% of people that purchased bitcoin and did not sell are in profit Good luck enjoying your profits if you didn't sell Does your local lambo retailer acccepts theoretical profits as a payment method?
No, I'm too dumb to take profit. I'd rather wait for the price to drop and then be forced to sell due to some financial emergency. I just wanted to point out your point was (all be it temporarily) partially incorrect
That's a tautology. There's no cash flow from bitcoin ownership, so the only reason anyone has profited is they convinced other people not to sell. The people with unrealized profits are known as bagholders.
The only way you lose money on bitcoin is you have zero understanding how the 4-year halving cycles work and you buy the tippy top. And even then you just hold for 4 years and go back into steep profits.
I wonder why a superior mind like you, who obviously must be filthy rich by now, is losing his time arguing with idiotic salty nocoiners here
Because 50% of you will be pumping my bags at the peak in summer 2025. And I'll be selling every single bitcoin I own to you then. The cycle will keep repeating until you guys learn.
Um. You just said the quiet part out loud, that you're expecting people to provide you exit liquidity so you can sell all your Bitcoin. On a certain level then, you understand that you're hoping to get rich by leaving others holding overpriced bags because Bitcoin is not worth that much.
Yes we totally want to buy the idiot hopium coin that we spend so much time mocking
The more butthurt folks subscribe to r/Buttcoin the more cycles we can keep getting away with it.
Yes because after reading posts about obvious fraud and screenshots of barely sentient butters everyone gets amped to buy the nothing coin
> at the peak in summer 2025. RemindMe! 2025-07-31 "i am buying this idiot's bags"
> many are now rich A fool and his money are soon parted.
“Sadly, many are now rich”!? What a hater you are. Why do you care?
What a wild take. Your relative is doing well in life and your reaction is to say it’s sad and to shit on them. Pretty sad existence if you care so much about some obscure ideology that you’d bag on your family because they’re doing well, just because you don’t agree with their investment strategy. I hope you can find some positivity in life because negative emotions and energy are contagious and the people around you probably don’t deserve that kind of energy dragging them down constantly.
It's speculation (aka gambling) not investing. My relative is doing well from a financial point of view but not in life, in general. They are fairly antisocial and do a very low status job. They have not made any kind of career for themselves, and spent all their free time on the internet absorbing wack job stuff from truthers to COVID conspiracy theories. In short, they have not become a mature adult in the world. They got into crypto by way of being a gold/silver bug. Crypto confirms their bleak world view where ever authority is to be evaluated with the utmost cynicism. Making money from holding crypto is validating their immaturity and childish view of the world.
>Austrian school weirdos Austrian school is the only kind of economics that has actually proven to work though.
Big old citation needed.
Actually, it's been proven to be a failure.
Yea, who would guess that throwing out empirical observation is not a good way to observe human behavior?
Lmao gonna need a source for that one buddy, because i know that is bullshit
Lol, the Austrian school literally disavows the use of data or the scientific method in their "theories" in favor of praxeology - running imaginary thought experiments in your mind. It could not be further from "proven". It has no basis in reality, forget "proven to work". Lol.
Austrian economics literally rejects scientific method, how the fuck it can be "proven" without that?
Working insofar as it is making the rich even richer by helping them accumulate even more wealth. I mean, every capitalist system does that but austrian economics turbocharges it
lol, nope, that’s why nobody does it.
just because you took a basic class in high school doesn't mean you absorbed it. or agree with it. or anything at all. i took it as a freshmen but i barely remember anything about that class. i'm trying to think of the teacher's name but i'm really struggling. anyway, what matters is the present and learning the basics of any field is very easy. but it's also very easy to learn those basics from con artists. which the crypto space is rife with.
That's true, but it doesn't even seem like they did proper research. Or if they did, only pro-Bitcoin talking points.
> it doesn't even seem like they did proper research 10 hours of crypto YT videos is enough to DYOR
> "the US government prints money out of thin air", to "Bitcoin is superior to the barter system", to "banks are bad", The thing that kills me is, while we might not put it so simply, most of us are probably on the same page about the problems with the "traditional" financial system. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Financial institutions behave irresponsibly, costing people Joba and homes, and face no consequences. There's always a leap in logic though. We agree that there is a problem, but that doesn't mean crypto is the answer to that problem. All of these economic problems can be real... and still leave crypto as a dangerous, volatile, unregulated "asset" that sane people wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. Yes, I know my house is on fire. No, I don't want to buy your snake oil to put that fire out. Snake oil is not a fire suppressant, no matter how many times you insist otherwise.
There are plenty of problems with the real financial system. Crypto accelerates all of the worst aspects of the modern financial system and eschews all of the learnings from centuries of financial evolution. That does not mean all elements of the modern financial system are bad. We've learned a lot, and systems / structures like banks are insanely economically productive / valuable.
I'm willing to start here and have a discussion about the pros and cons of 'provable' digital assets, and how it can impact the current financial system. I think things like regulation and anonymity and trustlessness are issues worth discussing.
i can’t speak to brigadiers but in real life, yeah, there are a lot of people we would otherwise consider highly intelligent that fully unironically believe in bitcoin. they can have well-educated discussions about it, but have drank the koolaid in various respects. e.g. folks with ivy league educations (and not just in computer science), harvard MBAs, experience at top consulting firms, or whatever else. a lot of them have plenty of exposure to monetary policy and can speak on it intelligently otherwise. i know folks who went to wharton who’ve obviously taken plenty of econ classes that think ethereum will change the world. IMO it’s usually one of three things driving it: 1. they have a track record of success, and have maybe even made hundreds of thousands of dollars on this (or more). that sort of confirmation bias is extremely hard to shake. plenty of successful, smart people have a difficult time recognizing the role luck has played in their success. 2. they’re too in the weeds—they are so extensively familiar with edge cases, nuances, and likely the technology itself, that they’ve completely missed the forest for the trees. 3. they are surrounded by people who reaffirm their beliefs and feel a sense of self-righteousness about their mission. when they do encounter people who disagree, points (1) & (2) above help them debate others into submission. the average person doesn’t care to know everything about crypto, so they are used to winning “debates”. framing that helps me understand this phenomenon is looking at unrelated examples where highly intelligent people consistently arrive at conclusions i don’t consider practical. e.g., consider how well-educated, informed, and credentialed some of the folks at the CATO institute are, and then consider how out-of-touch with reality some of their takes are regardless.
I know 3 butters IRL. One is a successful small-town dentist. One is my local delivery box truck driver who calls himself "The CEO of my own crypto-currency exchange". One is my 75 year old mother. All of these people own Buttcoin because someone they trust told them to buy and hodl. None of these people know anything about computers or economics. This scam has always been a confidence game. Brigaders come here to exercise their con man skills, I assume to practice for real life conversations they need to have with potential new bag holders. This is why it all sounds so repetitive - they're regurgitating the same lines that got them hooked in the first place to see if it'll work on someone new. /r/buttcoin is full of skeptics, so it's a good place to practice conning dupes with poor critical thinking skills.
Yeah I think this is the axiom. Less maths or compsi ∝ more Buttcoin. Try telling a mathematician he should put a cent into some dumb shit that doubled up on non-injective functions.
yeah there’s definitely a broad spectrum of people into crypto, just like with other areas. i wouldn’t compare the average person on any of the GME subs to someone who works as a quant on wall street (i’m 100% not trying to draw a parallel b/w crypto nerds and quants precisely, just a parallel to highlight the breadth of people interested in certain subjects).
Quants make the most basic ass graph functions, I wouldn't laud them for being smart
They probably feel the same about you, ranting endlessly about government issue debt and bank notes.
It’s “have drunk”. I stop reading when I see bad grammar.
Classic Buttcoin-type response
Ivy League diplomas and Harvard MBAs are only meaningful because rich people who send their kids to those places want you to believe it so. But the diplomas aren't worth the paper used to print them. There are remarkably high levels of ignorance and idiocy at the Ivies. The current measles outbreak in Florida is the work of a Harvard grad.
yeah i disagree those brand names don’t have value just bc of marketing efforts from rich people; they have brand value cus the admissions process is super competitive, and you generally have to prove yourself along a couple dimensions (GPA, standardized test scores, work experience, some other extraordinary distinguishing characteristics, idk) to get in. whatever they’re teaching at harvard prob isn’t meaningfully different than what they’re teaching anywhere else, but by most metrics we’d use to measure intelligence, the avg student there is pretty fucking smart. i didn’t go to an ivy league myself and i’m not saying this is a holistic way to judge intelligence, but we can look @ empirical data to substantiate this stuff. i just intended to use it as an example. edit: i don’t necessarily disagree with your edits, just the original version. i think my original comment above is in agreement with some of what you’re saying re: ignorance
When a school accepts students because of legacy or their parent's donations, its academic reputation should absolutely be called into question. Dumb rich kids get into the Ivys. And dumb rich kids graduate from Harvard. As far as competition to get in? Acceptance ratios only reflect the number of people who applied vs the number of available seats. That. Is. It. So if 90 bajillion people apply to Harvard and only 2000 get in, yes, the ratio is high but it doesn't mean that the school itself is any more competitive academically. Once kids are in, there is a desire to keep their parents happy by allowing the kids to graduate regardless of how smart they are. Grade inflation at Ivies and other private schools is rampant because no one wants to donate millions only to have little Teddy drop out because he can't hack it. Knowing several products of Harvard's grad schools (Kennedy and biz) who are at varying levels of success, the only differences among them are their own drives. One friend is a K-school grad who is quietly successful and well-respected in the non-profit world. Another is a stoner who still lives with their parents and hasn't been in the workforce for over a decade. Another is a fail-forward brunchlord who only manages to get jobs because of their scintillating bro-ness. One of them got in because they're really fucking smart (easily one of the smartest people I've ever met), one got in because they were an acceptance committee's diversity wet-dream and the other one had 2 generations of Harvard grads behind him. Guess which one is the brunchlord...
i disagree with your premise (we can get median GPA, SAT score, earnings, whatever, for yale grads vs SUNY buffalo if we want), but since this is so tangential to the subject at hand, i’m gonna bow out. my overarching point is that there are people who are very well-versed in monetary policy that still regurgitate BTC talking points, + some guesses as to why.
I had some hilarious conversations this weekend at a wedding with people that were "into crypto". It went from "you should sell your house, your car and everything of value you own \*right now\* and buy crypto" with one guy and another one showing a graph from his ibu shiba (or something like that) coin going up "35% in one day yesterday" so I asked what 1 coin was worth now and it was $ 0,0000135. When I asked how much he bought his coins for and how long he was hodling now all he could say was "look at bitcoin. all these coins are going up soon". Gave me a good chuckle.
SHIB went up 50% just today - but it's still down 50% from ATH.
So it only needs another day where it goes up 50% to get back to the ATH!!! - that guy at the wedding
I don't get why they have to pretend to care about Bitcoin as a currency when it's up, like you should be shamelessly selling for dirty fiat rn not talking about how it's the future of money. Save this Bitcoin as a currency talk for when the price crashes and you are desperate for bagholders
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it" \- Upton Sinclair
>Have they never heard of what a monetary policy is? Do they understand what inflation is? Have they never looked up the case of the Zimbabwean dollar? Have they never learned about the history of money, as in how we went from bartering to using commodities as money to using the gold standard to using the Bretton Woods system to the current system? Have they never heard about why deflation is bad (hi Japan) or how it sucks for people with debt? They know the Austrian economic memes they parrot. As a note: there is no substantial evidence that suggests money started from barter. Anthropological arguments imply credit first, representational units second. Can argue that gold standards were also a bit of a misnomer. As soon as English banks could provide sterling to the breadth of the empire, *sterling itself* priced gold.. and not the other way around. Same goes for the dollar as American banking expanded. Bretton Woods was dead on arrival, since banks were already laying the groundwork to lend USD into existence *outside* of the domestic oversight of the Federal Reserve, undermining any meaningful gold backing. ...only bringing this up because it dispels their chosen boogeymen. As for Japan, oh my yes.. the example is a monumental one. They rail against "central bank money printing/government debt monetization", yet Japan sits as a beacon of the most robust reserve issuance... *with minimal to non-existent* inflation. You'd figure the obvious contradiction would give them pause.
> You'd figure the obvious contradiction would give them pause. If I’ve learned one thing, it’s that they are not self-reflective or able to think critically, even of their own ideas.
I’m just always surprised how they keep talking about a future wide spread use of bitcoin to be used to pay for everything while at the same time they hodl forever because tmr it might be “worth” so much more than it is today. Those two things seem to be buying each other a bit.
They don't need to, they did their own research.
Bold of you to assume they can read.
They're so upset they risk their Reddit accounts by brigading with downvotes.
rainstorm slimy summer crown automatic longing quicksand zephyr coherent rude *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Short answer ... No. The ideologues are hard-money cranks, the degens are just greedy.
Anecdotally the cousin of mine who got big into influencer grifts/crypto/nfts/memestocks before getting pantsed on them all did the bare minimum of math in HS and didn't do anything finance related. I love the kid but these scams love people who don't have the math/finance/historical knowledge to realize why the bag of beans you're being sold aren't actually all that magical.
USD isn’t printed out of thin air, but it is more or less a controlled ledger where the circulating supply is increased at a rate subject to 9 human beings that none of us have a say in.
Yeah, dude. Took economics in college. Companies are boring, I don't wanna invest in those. Cute animals are king. It's a game. Without a House. Or lottery people taking your money, reducing your odds. Cell phones are new, man. So is the internet. What makes you think that stores of value wouldn't evolve. It's fun, and could be risky. But attractive to a layperson. But macroeconomical implications. Really good for the economy. If there's a sector booming, you don't wanna crash it, you want it to boom. Healthier than scratch-off tickets. But it really is more than that. But I know you don't think that.
At school here we learnt about Pyramid (aka Ponzi) scams in psychology not economics, because it was behavioural or something (mass deception)
I treat Bitcoin (and other cryptos) as a risky stock. Would I invest all my money into it? Hell no. Has it been working well for me so far? Definitely. Another reason why I like to invest in it are the tax laws in my country. Holding cryptos for more than a year allows me to sell them tax free which does not work for regular stocks. Sure, I pay a fee when selling but that fee is way lower than the amount of taxes I would have to pay on regular stocks. Background since you have asked for it: Master‘s degree in Business (focus on management)
It’s clear they couldn’t spell economics with a dictionary
.5% of my assets are in bitcoin. Fun money. It’s been fun watching it going down and up. If Larry Fink can profit off it, why can’t I?
Stay mad no coiners 😂
Thanks for paying my rent, coiner
I know this drum gets banged a lot but "The Bitcoin Standard", despite its name, is really like 80% about the history of currency and monetary systems and addresses so much of what you mention here. And certainly some inflation is good, but not what the US has going on currently. Case in point, while BTC touched its previous ATH today at $67.5k, this is only ***nominally*** an ATH due to massive inflation since 2021. It's real ATH adjusted for how much the dollar has weakened in the last three years will be more like $77-78k.
>is really like 80% about the history of currency and monetary systems and addresses so much of what you mention here Except that it [doesn't](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/s/hsyiTx8RNn). It's as selective a telling of monetary history as I've ever seen. Grand omissions to tell the story in the way that suits the thesis.
>These days, money is an electronic ledger managed by global banks (certainly not "government provided legal tender" in any appreciable sense). Can you elaborate a bit more on this point? I may be misunderstanding the scope you are gesturing to when you say this, but it sounds as if you propose that government fiat (and its inflation as a consequence of government printing) is insignificant relative to the policy decisions of private banks. Unless perhaps you are putting the Federal Reserve in with that lot?
You need to elaborate on the alleged question. And clean it up. If you aren't doing this on purpose, then fuck, good luck. I'll try to help. 1. "Money printing" is, yes, either fucking irrelevant (normal functional operation of physical currency creation/destruction, run by dork ass engineers) or non-existent (an analogy for various macro-economic policy decisions, specifically usually the baseline interest rate). Which one of those are you asking about? 2. If you are ESL, never use the word "gesture" to refer to anything other than a physical motion. Badwrong. If not, then idk you're probably doing this shit on purpose. Its no one's fault this is the dichotomy, unless it's yours. 3. "Inflation"/"deflation" are inherent behavioral models for macro-economic trends. They don't have anything to do with "printing", but I want to make a larger point: Next time someone tells you that everyone is a fucking idiot becuase "XYZ is obvious" just take that as a red flag. 4. IDK if this is it, but "yes", the general macroeconomic system in place in the US and thus affecting the globe, is to generally let the private market run itself, with very little regulation and oversight from anyone, period. These motherfucking criminals still think that is too much, and the motherfucking lolbertarians are trying to unalive society, and people like you are here "just asking questions" fuck.
>IDK if this is it, but "yes", the general macroeconomic system in place in the US and thus affecting the globe, is to generally let the private market run itself, with very little regulation and oversight from anyone, period. This is it, without my meandering. For all its benefits and faults.
Its called "hypercapitalism" generally, and it's a fucking probably fatal disaster for humanity. Too bad we had to wait on the monoculture to literally die from old age. Regardless, "crypto" is a distraction from this essential cause, not a help in anyway, but a hindrance, thus the veiled unkindness.
"Fatal disaster" as your spoiled self lives in the richest country on earth, highest life expectancy in human history, with more expendable income than any other time in human history.
Not relatively, on that last bit, but how the fuck are you getting me being spoiled, a random American? Pssh. Typical non-American arrogance, for shame for shame. And, wait, that second to last bit is false. Wait, that second bit is false too, both relative and objective....you could argue a single definition but I'll let you find it if you can, few. So that's 0/4. Oof.
Isn't it crazy, you missed out on 15 years of insane bitcoin profits just to cry about American hypercapitalism on a buttcoin forum.
With respect-- as I appreciate you typed out quite a lot-- the other fellow's response to me was much more helpful and far less antagonistic. Try a kinder tact in the future. Or if you think every dissenting/questioning opinion on the subreddit is secretly just a troll or asking in bad faith, don't bother engaging at all. It's not good for your health. And for the record, it is perfectly fine to use "gesture" to describe a non-physical signaling. So says my humanities PhD!
What university/name, I'll send them an email. Do what you want, it will 100% confuse people, but it's your diction. Feel free to point out exactly what was unkind.
>if you aren't doing this on purpose, then fuck, good luck > >dork ass engineers (???) > >ESL ; badwrong > >people like you are here "just asking questions" fuck.
>is insignificant relative to the ~~policy decisions~~ *activities* of private banks. There.. now I agree with the statement fully. Yes, that is what I'm suggesting. There is no "government printing" in any significant fashion in most of the developed world. This is going to be a mechanical description, starting with what gets called "printing"... (But really isn't). A government creates/encourages a market for their debt. Specialized banking institutions apply to bid at initial auctions of this debt (called Primary Dealers in the US). Primary Dealers are obliged to purchase the debt, but immediately facilitate a secondary market for the debt instruments. The debt is mostly acquired via the ability of global banks and near-banks balance sheets to absorb the issuance on the secondary market. These global banks provide the *real dollars* that can be used for fiscal policies by the government. Demand for a countries debt = ability to sustain deficit spending. Treasuries themselves are the most sought collateral for the repo market (a global wholesale funding market), which banks use to fund themselves/adequately circulate dollars as needed. Institutions can pledge and re-pledge government debt certificates to obtain overnight "cash". So, plenty of demand for such instruments.. even if some debt auctions may appear weaker at any given time. Central Banks don't really factor in any major sense. They can create "reserves", which are a line item stored in a database at the central bank (they do not circulate beyond this, and can only be held by and transferred to memeber banks). Reserves are not spent in the real economy (despite superficial definitions of QE). So, ultimately whether money was "printed" or not... depends on whether global commercial banks created more deposits/commercial bank ledger money to fund the purchases of government debt. If commercial banks lent more money into existence, money was printed. If they did not.. then government auctions are just funded via a redistribution of the existing supply of commercial bank money.
> (and its inflation as a consequence of government printing) Inflation != growth in the supply of money or government printing.
> And certainly some inflation is good, but not what the US has going on currently. Deflation is worse. And US inflation currently is almost at target.
Ah, good! The cost of living crisis will be ending imminently.
Hello! I am an economist who is currently working on getting a masters degree. How can I help you?
It's a pretty powerful ponzi scheme at this point.
The Fed does print money out of thin air. The "debt" created is an illusion. How else would we have a positive sum game that holds the house of cards. For now, anyway. But i agree with everything else. Bitcoin won't solve any monetary or inflationary "problem". In fact, it'll make it worse. If we suddenly didn't have an option to ever do a QE there'd be blood on the streets in no time.
Im a CFP and i buy bitcoin as pure speculation. It’s not that serious no need to get your panties in a bunch.
At least you are honest - unlike others who claim that bitcoin is second comming of jesus.
I’m getting a grad degree in economics and I am heavily invested in bitcoin. The future of finance is on the blockchain. Many Ivy Leagues now teach on it or researching future use cases/ monetary policy shifts.
Then you should know effects of deflation on economy and why that makes crypto fiat extremly shitty currency
What about BTC in particular do you think will cause deflation?
The fact that it has limited supply? Economy is changing and expanding over time thanks to technological progress, which means that there will be less coins to chase after more stuff. That is deflation.
But you’re not going to sell one BTC for consumer products. That’s a very simplistic version of how inflation works. Yes it occurs to some degree how you’ve outlined, but there has been zero done in product demand price discovery with BTC as true currency. There’s also a case to be made that not all deflationary events are bad. For instance technology itself is deflationary in some aspects but it also increases overall production which contributes to gdp increase.
> But you’re not going to sell one BTC for consumer products. You don't need to circulate currency for the price to change - the fact that you are witholding currency in the first place decreases supply, thus pushing price upwards. Also what do you mean by "sell" - in this scenario, BTC would be main currency. --- > There’s also a case to be made that not all deflationary events are bad. Nobody said that. What we say is that deflation caused by bitcoin would cripple any economy that would seriously use it as currency. --- > For instance technology itself is deflationary in some aspects but it also increases overall production which contributes to gdp increase. ....what? We are talking about currency.
lol
The Ivy League itself is made up of exactly eight universities. How many is many? And that's under the generous assumption that you meant Ivy League universities and don't just assume Ivy League means university, which is far more likely given the profile.
Most of them offer classes. You can google just as easily as I can.
It's very unusual for people to receive education in economics. It's also an intellectually bereft discipline mostly studied by people looking to get in on the grift. You can't expect people to have been educated in finance before they put their (real) money somewhere, much like you can't expect someone to get a degree in theology before forming an opinion on religion. I think, though, that it's perfectly fair to relentlessly mock people for failing to see a very obvious scam for what it is.
Most of the successful crypto traders I see are either software engineers or entrepreneurs. The former for their knowledge and the latter for their risk taking capabilities.
Bitcoin is not «money». Jesus this sub is depressing -
We heard it man, its store of value now, but what will be the next time it crashes?
And you see our current world and think to yourself: yep, this is fine 😂
You drop a large turd on the current world and tell yourself "yep, this is better".
Why yes I have actually. I have a Computer Engineering Degree with a Minor in Economics. I currently have a DevOps / GitOps related job at an equities / options exchange. I have 99.03% of my digital wealth (currencies / investments) in BTC and it has been doing me very well. Please snap out of this psychosis / cult like mentality. There are people that can draw logical connections that some of you are incapable of. I am sorry that many of you aren't very gifted, but use that knowledge to listen to those that have more intellectual capabilities. Personally, I believe BTC will have the next low of around $40-45k at some point in our life, but that's it. You very likely will never see the price of bitcoin lower than that for the rest of your lifetime. So please, on the next down swing, just buy it already... Many of you were eying it since it was \~300 dollars, hell, some of you even a dollar.
You guys are in the cult. It's a useless currency with heavily manipulated price. There are zero expected returns and zero value generated. Any analyst can tell you the expected return of an asset with no interest dividends or growth... You guys are all retarded
Thats really bad mate, you have failed in both your major and minor fields if you think the blockchain is useful for anything. Go back to school mate. >There are people that can draw logical connections that some of you are incapable of. Give us ONE such logical connection, PLEASE. We have been begging you for this for more than a decade, PLEASE.
No you haven't You have no genuine curiosity
This sub-reddit cannot wrap their mind around BTC being a store of value. They cling to their dollars and index funds waiting for the government to issue more debt.
If I say a box of shit is store of value, will you buy it?
Nope, but if you think that's comparable...stay poor lol
Yes. In 2014 I kept saying how stupid BTC was and it made no sense at all. Then I thought, what if it follows the simple laws of supply and demand where you have a fixed supply of something and increasing demand over a time period. I decided to put 5% of my investable money into it to see what happens. Limited Supply + Increasing Demand means price can only go one way. I'm a former financial planner - and I've been DCA into BTC (not other cryptos) since then. And I continue to do so. With the approval and availability of ETFs in Fidelity it meant I could move some of my money into a ROTH for tax purposes, which was a nice game changer for me. (Prepared to get downvoted for this - but it's my serious take)
If your premises are wrong the conclusion is as well. Increasing demand is not guaranteed which means that the price in fact can go very much both ways.
Absolutely - but I was looking at over a long term. I knew full well demand could absolutely go down and it would fizzle out. But that is how I broke it down to a simple look at supply and demand. I don't think it will ever be a global currency or replace fiat anywhere.
>But that is how I broke it down to a simple look at supply and demand. I don't think it will ever be a global currency or replace fiat anywhere. This is the most important point you're saying vs all of the people pumping Cryptos. They sell the idea that this is the currency of the world and everyone is going to use it... They were saying when Bitcoin first started trading. They say it today when its value is high in fiat.
I've never held that view - nor do I now. It's an asset to me, nothing more, and a speculative one. Period.
Its no greater or worse an asset than pokemon cards. Its value is determined by you and the market.
so, again, it's gambling
It's investing in a speculative asset
If thats what you wanna call it...I call em potatoes. Coinbase calls it beanie babies.
Assuming increasing demand is doing a lot of the heavy lifting in your thesis there.
Correct - it was an assumption that over time there would be increasing demand. Demand compared to 2014 has certainly increased, as has price.
> Increasing Demand Do you know that the laws of supply and demand have a concept called elasticity? Do you think the demand for something with no inherent value is elastic or inelastic? What do you think that means for the price?
> Limited Supply + Increasing Demand means price can only go one way. And this is exactly why it would be shitty currency. Currency was never supposed to rot under your bed.
You are saying that you gambled 5% of your investment income into something stupid. I don’t think I could that.
It’s worth considering allocating a small % of your investments to something more high risk, but with the potential for high growth, with the idea that you may lose some or all of the initial investment. This doesn’t mean BTC or crypto. Could be QQQ vs SPY, a rental property in an up and coming neighborhood, a limited release LEGO set you think may be worth 3x more in a few years, whatever. Risk-free (US Treasuries, CDs, etc) is around 4-5%, so high growth would be whatever you think decently beats that over the next 1-5-10 years or whenever youll need or want to use those invested funds. This is all pretty standard advice that even the staunchest value bogglehead would likely agree with. Just my two, maybe worthless, sats.
Into something that had the potential to increase in demand over the next decade. I wasn't saying you should do the same, but that's how I approached it. And putting 5% of a portfolio into "risky assets" is a completely normal approach.
The irony of all of this is that this subreddit, and by affiliation doomers like bitfinexed, are themselves a big funnel and on-boarder of people to crypto. They help spread what they manifestly hate! That’s the best part! How many people have walked the path from curiosity TO thinking it’s all a scam TO realizing emotionally irrational ppl no matter the side are stupid TO investigating things themselves TO opening an account on coinbase. I bet a fair number! From buttcoin to bitcoin. Never bitcoin to buttcoin.
Do you still believe it's stupid and makes no sense, despite being correct, that the demand has increased since 2014?
It would be a greater phenomenon if all these intellectuals created a self fulfilling prophecy in our society and this goes on 100+ years. Whether it’s right or wrong, if people believe it has value it will maintain its growth.
There are no intellectuals involved with crypto. It's a blind greed-led ambition, not an intellectual led one.
These are the types of statements that limit your openness to other ideas. You can be an intellectual and still be wrong.
There is a better alternative theory of money, and that is the commodity theory (and its principles of sound money) and posts like this seem to only recognize that modern monetary theory (aka the State theory of money) is the only valid way of thinking about money. Both can co-exist in parallel with each other. Like fiat and gold have. The problem is the further fiat gets away from some kind of pegged commodity the more leeway our banking system and federal government have with debasing the currency. Debasement absolutely eviscerates the lower and middle classes while benefitting the asset holders. We simply want better. We want rules, not rulers.
MMT is actually largely disputed by the economics community. It's shitty economic theory. Commodity money is shit money, hence why no one uses it anymore. You actually can't debase fiat currency, you can however debase commodity money. If you don't want rulers, don't peg your future economic hopes on an insanely concentrated, utterly useless token owned by few rich, powerful early adopters who are rich solely by virtue of buying early.
"You actually can't debase fiat money" Sorry what? That's the whole point of it. State actors and bankers specifically like the flexibility of the money supply because it gives them control over the public coffers. You can't debase gold, or BTC, that's the point of natural hard limits. Unless for gold, you found some new deposit of it, but that can only last so long and there's only so much gold in the earth. BTC on the other hand can't be debased whatsoever.
Debase: "lower the value of (coinage) by reducing the content of precious metal." By definition, the classic example of "debasing money" is debasing gold/ commodity-based currency. You absolutely can debase gold. > BTC, that's the point of natural hard limits. Sorry to break it to you, but they absolutely can dilute the number of BTC out there.
Ok lets stick to the strict definition everything. You know what I mean. You're right though that's what they used to do way back, the emperor or king would recall all the coinage and re issue it back with a slightly lower quantity. Debasement CAN encompass fiat in the broadly understood definition of debasement, many economists use the term debasement to describe inflation. Whether or not "technically speaking" is can happen to fiat... the loss of purchasing power over time is fundamental to fiat. And BTC COULD technically be diluted, if all the BTC maxis and hardheards and devs suddenly turn 180 and vote to enter that into the base layer. And it would have to be a huge majority, but that's never going to happen. That is the draw of Bitcoin for us commodity money folks.
Yes, i am no brigader.. but definately took econ 101 and 102 in college. Career finace guy
There is actually a MASSIVE supply shortage right now: 1) ETF volume is driving a ton of new volume 2) Microstrategy and other large institutions ars purchasing Billions of USD (10ks of BTC) regularly 3) exchanges are low on btc remaining 4) upcoming halving will make the supply per day lower 5) upcoming halving ans fomo from price increase will bring a ton of media and news about btc, bringing smaller new investors into btc. So yes. Supply/demand is the reason why bitcoin has been climbing. Is it the best technology in the world?.. Definately not, but it is secure ebough and not as inflationary as USD. Other coins or currencies have equal or better techbology, but BTC was early and will remain the gold standard of crypto coins.
UCLA math econ grad here. Bitcoin is the shiiii and yall are a buncha morons. Have fun with your tiny little weeniez in your hands lol
You've been fed propaganda, not an education. Money supply inflation devalues earnings and savings and transfers that value into the pockets of political parasites. Why do you think someone should use fiat unless they're forced to? Inflation also stimulates spending on non-essential items, thus fostering a culture of mindless consumerism. In contrast, deflation tends to promote frugality and a focus on necessary purchases, as well as saving for tomorrow.
All that matters is that you make da money. Explain why WoW gold has value or steam cards. Mtg is just cardboard. All that matters with most things is how popular it is. Don't overthink it
Prefixing your (rhetorical) question with "serious" doesn't make it so. Would you take a bitcoiner seriously if they said that they have a PhD in economics? I feel like the answer is no. Bitcoiners (at least some) have considered those questions. They do not agree with the answers that you think are obvious.
All the economics you learned in high school or college was wrong.
No it isn't.
If you have an argument, just make your argument. Plenty of people will talk economics with you if you speak directly to them.
I'd call myself pro-bitcoin and I'm in my third year at university studying finance. So I've had many classes on the history of money, monetary policy, the business of the banking system, etc. I'd say claims that it can be a viable replacement for fiat is highly questionable at best. I do think it's hard to argue against its status as an emerging young asset class though. BlackRock doesn't bring in $10 billion in two months for a complete scam, imho.
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> Of course we’ve studied those things which ours why we are so hard on our conviction towards bitcoin. Then answer the question about deflation.
Bitcoin is an escape valve from the government controlled, centralized financial system. The ability to store value over decades and transfer money immediately and without conditions.
1 tweet is all it takes to crash the price
Can say that about any stock
You ever hear the expression "out of the frying pan, into the fire"? That's what Bitcoin is
Not sure that makes any sense in this situation.
The financial system has its flaws but Bitcoin is worse. Bitcoin solves none of these flaws and instead exacerbates most of them
Sure it does, only 21 million supply means nobody can devalue my coins. It's why the US dollar is worth 20% less the last 5 years while Bitcoin is 1660% more.
Bitcoin is centralized when an overwhelming majority of it is held in exchanges with all the keys and wallets belonging to the exchange. They may give you access believing you own something. But in cases like FTX, they can say fuck you and rug pull it.
Not your keys, not your coins. Btw only 9% of all bitcoins are held in exchanges. You may want to check your facts. https://www.coinglass.com/Balance
So only 9% are in active circulation? That's actually a bad thing...