###This is a reminder to [read the rules before posting in this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion).
1. **Headline titles should be changed only [when the original headline is unclear](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_1._headline_titles_should_be_changed_only_where_it_improves_clarity.)**
2. **Be [respectful](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_2._be_respectful).**
3. **Keep submissions and comments [substantive](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_3._keep_submissions_and_comments_substantive).**
4. **Avoid [direct advocacy](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_4._avoid_direct_advocacy).**
5. **Link submissions must be [about Canadian politics and recent](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_5._link_submissions_must_be_canadian_and_recent).**
6. **Post [only one news article per story](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_6._post_only_one_news_article_per_story).** ([with one exception](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/3wkd0n/rule_reminder_and_experimental_changes/))
7. **Replies to removed comments or removal notices will be removed** without notice, at the discretion of the moderators.
8. **Downvoting posts or comments**, along with urging others to downvote, **[is not allowed](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/downvotes)** in this subreddit. Bans will be given on the first offence.
9. **[Do not copy & paste the entire content of articles in comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_9._do_not_copy_.26amp.3B_paste_entire_articles_in_the_comments.)**. If you want to read the contents of a paywalled article, please consider supporting the media outlet.
*Please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadaPolitics) if you wish to discuss a removal.* **Do not reply to the removal notice in-thread**, *you will not receive a response and your comment will be removed. Thanks.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CanadaPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> "Originally, staff proposed that the membership of the advisory committee consist of only people with Indigenous and African backgrounds."
>
>
>
> Why are the supposed anti racist initiatives always the most racist?
When they do this, it's a red flag that equality or justice is not their guiding principle. It smacks of "colonizing the colonizers".
Where it actually went wrong:
> From November 2021 to October 2023, the advisory committee held 18 meetings to discuss the process, names and consulted with various experts. The 18th meeting finalized a list of names for both the street and the square to be used for public consultation.
Are you freaking kidding me. The job is to name a nearly bankrupt, failed, unpopular slab of concrete riddled with litter and the occasional needle, whose main purpose seems to be an advertising venue for Dollarama, a kitschy basement landscape model shop, and other mediocre chains
This issue was performatively and expensively studied to death. While the final choice is bewildering, the whole process was exceedingly dumb: A multiyear ordeal of multiple commissioned studies and reports, 18 (!!) meetings of an advisory committee, interminable public hearings, endless hours of fully City Council meetings, and on and on and on.
Chow's position on the topic is the first sensible one I've seen: "I don't care. No more wasted time and energy. You get to spend exactly one more meeting on picking a name for this square, which is what you should have done in the first place. And you get the square and two libraries. No renaming the street. If you want to do a promotion, that's fine, spend the money set out for promoting Y+D Square already."
Her supreme disinterest in this nonsense and desire to wrap it up as quickly as possible is almost inspiring.
Honestly as a CPC voter I love this. It'll remove more voters from LPC/NDP into the CPC camp, inside 416. It's free advertising on the conservative side , especially for swing voters who are sick of the woke stuff from the left.
I remain surprised that Doug Ford has no interest in overruling City Council to prevent this woke, unpopular decision. It's an obvious wedge issue that would benefit him, and is consistent with his political ideology.
But Ford isnt going to be blamed for this going through, the public recognizes that it is someone elses purview.
That leaves him free to have a very public example of an opponent group screwing up. Leaving them the rope to hang themselves with, literally in the town square, benefits him politically already.
Maybe a more active role in it would further benefit him, but he is making passive gains currently.
Yeah, and I don't think Canadians really care about changing the name away from Dundas. The outrage is mostly at the amount of time and money spent to come up with a pretty dumb replacement name. Nobody can do anything to get that back now, including Ford.
The vast majority of the population hates the new name. A couple of black academics guilted the rest of the committee into accepting it at risk of being labeled racists.
\*Doug Ford cuts a fart\*
"Stop endorsing colonialism!!" - left wing media from around the country
That's why he hasn't mentioned anything. Who needs the headache? It's quite unpopular already and the left wing in Toronto is going hell bent for leather on it.
> That's why he hasn't mentioned anything. Who needs the headache? It's quite unpopular already and the left wing in Toronto is going hell bent for leather on it.
You hear Ford’s surrogate talk on his podcast about how the things that don’t happen are equally/more important as a justification for why conservatives should support Doug Ford. The problem is, when those things begin to happen and he does nothing (not even going on record), what’s his value?
It's a wedge issue in that if Ford intervened, the NDP would for sure take the other side, which is also the unpopular side. So he'd win support on net from them (frankly, I'm not sure what position the Liberals would take).
Maybe he's saving it for the next time a scandal breaks, to serve as a distraction.
It would be similar to how when the Greenbelt development corruption scandal broke, and it was harming him, and then Sarah Jama moved a lot of the provincial political conversation over to focus on her/Israel/Palestine which did not harm him.
It took a lot of heat off of Ford, and really helped get his scandal out off of the front page as the news cycle moved on to that. Having a distraction pop up at a convenient moment is a good trick so I wouldn't be surprised if he were saving it for later in his back pocket. This "culture war" stuff is often used as a distraction by conservative strategists.
Another important part of the article: how the fuck does an advisory committee meet EIGHTEEN times to pick a name? No shit our bureaucracy is in shambles, you got a bunch of mediocre managers meet eighteen times to suggest a new name. In any other private organization you would ask the committee to individually prepare a list each beforehand, consult once, and move on.
That's a feature, not a bug. Anytime you allow consultants infinite time and funding to do something they will take as long as charge as much as possible. Every part of every government org is now plagued by this.
And we are supporting more taxes.
Nothing progressive is free nor cheap.
That’s why scanadivan countries have higher tax on the “poor” than we do. Got to pick what to progress.
In smaller orgs it's a poll on Slack or, more likely, not even a thing because they're not so easily distracted. In larger organizations it's carefully managed through HR, comms, and their curated employee resource groups.
In municipal politics, it's become a battleground where individuals and groups looking to make a name meet bureaucrats incapable of making trade-off decisions. For bureaucrats, it's safest to do nothing and keep everyone unhappy.
Edit: typos
Anyone know the population of Toronto? As in "In June 2020, Toronto City Council received a petition from about 14,000 persons calling for Dundas Street to be renamed as its namesake Henry Dundas,". Is that a large enough percentage of the residents to warrant this change request?
About 2.8 Million, or 6.4 million if you're looking at the GTA. So the petition could represent half a percent, which is actually pretty significant for a petition.
But I would also guess the petitioners were not rigorous about taking only Toronto residents and that residents of the GTA or even outside Ontario signed the petition, in which case 2.8 million would not be the right denominator. 🤷
###This is a reminder to [read the rules before posting in this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion). 1. **Headline titles should be changed only [when the original headline is unclear](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_1._headline_titles_should_be_changed_only_where_it_improves_clarity.)** 2. **Be [respectful](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_2._be_respectful).** 3. **Keep submissions and comments [substantive](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_3._keep_submissions_and_comments_substantive).** 4. **Avoid [direct advocacy](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_4._avoid_direct_advocacy).** 5. **Link submissions must be [about Canadian politics and recent](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_5._link_submissions_must_be_canadian_and_recent).** 6. **Post [only one news article per story](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_6._post_only_one_news_article_per_story).** ([with one exception](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/3wkd0n/rule_reminder_and_experimental_changes/)) 7. **Replies to removed comments or removal notices will be removed** without notice, at the discretion of the moderators. 8. **Downvoting posts or comments**, along with urging others to downvote, **[is not allowed](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/downvotes)** in this subreddit. Bans will be given on the first offence. 9. **[Do not copy & paste the entire content of articles in comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_9._do_not_copy_.26amp.3B_paste_entire_articles_in_the_comments.)**. If you want to read the contents of a paywalled article, please consider supporting the media outlet. *Please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadaPolitics) if you wish to discuss a removal.* **Do not reply to the removal notice in-thread**, *you will not receive a response and your comment will be removed. Thanks.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CanadaPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
> "Originally, staff proposed that the membership of the advisory committee consist of only people with Indigenous and African backgrounds." > > > > Why are the supposed anti racist initiatives always the most racist? When they do this, it's a red flag that equality or justice is not their guiding principle. It smacks of "colonizing the colonizers".
Not substantive
Where it actually went wrong: > From November 2021 to October 2023, the advisory committee held 18 meetings to discuss the process, names and consulted with various experts. The 18th meeting finalized a list of names for both the street and the square to be used for public consultation. Are you freaking kidding me. The job is to name a nearly bankrupt, failed, unpopular slab of concrete riddled with litter and the occasional needle, whose main purpose seems to be an advertising venue for Dollarama, a kitschy basement landscape model shop, and other mediocre chains This issue was performatively and expensively studied to death. While the final choice is bewildering, the whole process was exceedingly dumb: A multiyear ordeal of multiple commissioned studies and reports, 18 (!!) meetings of an advisory committee, interminable public hearings, endless hours of fully City Council meetings, and on and on and on. Chow's position on the topic is the first sensible one I've seen: "I don't care. No more wasted time and energy. You get to spend exactly one more meeting on picking a name for this square, which is what you should have done in the first place. And you get the square and two libraries. No renaming the street. If you want to do a promotion, that's fine, spend the money set out for promoting Y+D Square already." Her supreme disinterest in this nonsense and desire to wrap it up as quickly as possible is almost inspiring.
Honestly as a CPC voter I love this. It'll remove more voters from LPC/NDP into the CPC camp, inside 416. It's free advertising on the conservative side , especially for swing voters who are sick of the woke stuff from the left.
I remain surprised that Doug Ford has no interest in overruling City Council to prevent this woke, unpopular decision. It's an obvious wedge issue that would benefit him, and is consistent with his political ideology.
But Ford isnt going to be blamed for this going through, the public recognizes that it is someone elses purview. That leaves him free to have a very public example of an opponent group screwing up. Leaving them the rope to hang themselves with, literally in the town square, benefits him politically already. Maybe a more active role in it would further benefit him, but he is making passive gains currently.
This is exactly the type of excess that makes the Chow-led council a perfect foil for his Everyman, "common sense" politics.
Yeah, and I don't think Canadians really care about changing the name away from Dundas. The outrage is mostly at the amount of time and money spent to come up with a pretty dumb replacement name. Nobody can do anything to get that back now, including Ford.
The vast majority of the population hates the new name. A couple of black academics guilted the rest of the committee into accepting it at risk of being labeled racists.
It's a great move though. It'll shave off more liberals/ndp voters inside 416 into the CPC camp.
The person in charge of the advocacy organization to rename Dundas Street is actually white.
\*Doug Ford cuts a fart\* "Stop endorsing colonialism!!" - left wing media from around the country That's why he hasn't mentioned anything. Who needs the headache? It's quite unpopular already and the left wing in Toronto is going hell bent for leather on it.
> That's why he hasn't mentioned anything. Who needs the headache? It's quite unpopular already and the left wing in Toronto is going hell bent for leather on it. You hear Ford’s surrogate talk on his podcast about how the things that don’t happen are equally/more important as a justification for why conservatives should support Doug Ford. The problem is, when those things begin to happen and he does nothing (not even going on record), what’s his value?
Is it that much of a wedge issue? Looks to me like a very small group is supporting it, the rest are either neutral or considering it dumb.
It's a wedge issue in that if Ford intervened, the NDP would for sure take the other side, which is also the unpopular side. So he'd win support on net from them (frankly, I'm not sure what position the Liberals would take).
Maybe he's saving it for the next time a scandal breaks, to serve as a distraction. It would be similar to how when the Greenbelt development corruption scandal broke, and it was harming him, and then Sarah Jama moved a lot of the provincial political conversation over to focus on her/Israel/Palestine which did not harm him. It took a lot of heat off of Ford, and really helped get his scandal out off of the front page as the news cycle moved on to that. Having a distraction pop up at a convenient moment is a good trick so I wouldn't be surprised if he were saving it for later in his back pocket. This "culture war" stuff is often used as a distraction by conservative strategists.
Oh sure, if NDP pick the other side that would be good for Ford. But I can’t believe a party would support that name change openly.
I 100% expect the NDP to support the change. It's NDP-sympathetic councillors who are pushing the renaming.
Another important part of the article: how the fuck does an advisory committee meet EIGHTEEN times to pick a name? No shit our bureaucracy is in shambles, you got a bunch of mediocre managers meet eighteen times to suggest a new name. In any other private organization you would ask the committee to individually prepare a list each beforehand, consult once, and move on.
Definitely too many meetings but most likely volunteers. The staff to host and coordinate would be the paid ones though
How else can they get free catered lunches though
They are making their best to support downtown timmies!
You think they're getting catering from Tim Hortons?
That's a feature, not a bug. Anytime you allow consultants infinite time and funding to do something they will take as long as charge as much as possible. Every part of every government org is now plagued by this.
It’s like “do you have anything else to do” If the answer is no. You’re on the committee
This is why we will fire 50 % of the public service after the next federal election.
That's why we on the right know how useless big government is.
And we are supporting more taxes. Nothing progressive is free nor cheap. That’s why scanadivan countries have higher tax on the “poor” than we do. Got to pick what to progress.
In smaller orgs it's a poll on Slack or, more likely, not even a thing because they're not so easily distracted. In larger organizations it's carefully managed through HR, comms, and their curated employee resource groups. In municipal politics, it's become a battleground where individuals and groups looking to make a name meet bureaucrats incapable of making trade-off decisions. For bureaucrats, it's safest to do nothing and keep everyone unhappy. Edit: typos
Anyone know the population of Toronto? As in "In June 2020, Toronto City Council received a petition from about 14,000 persons calling for Dundas Street to be renamed as its namesake Henry Dundas,". Is that a large enough percentage of the residents to warrant this change request?
About 2.8 Million, or 6.4 million if you're looking at the GTA. So the petition could represent half a percent, which is actually pretty significant for a petition. But I would also guess the petitioners were not rigorous about taking only Toronto residents and that residents of the GTA or even outside Ontario signed the petition, in which case 2.8 million would not be the right denominator. 🤷