Are you a functioning member of society?
Are you a law abiding citizen?
Do you benefit and chip into your economy by working?
Do you chip into your society by paying taxes?
Are you a permanent resident of Canada with plans of staying in Canada?
If you said yes to all of those, then I don’t see why you can’t vote. Hell, most of that is the list of elegbility to become a citizen anyway. The only one missing is the “you need to stay in the country for 3 out of the last 5 years”. But I feel as though that should be much shorter. That, and applying for citizen ship itself takes 14 months. I feel like that is an unfair amount of time to restrict someone who is otherwise, a fully functioning and participating member of society.
Why should I as someone who holds citizenship to an entirely different, foreign country, have a say in what happens in this one? I do agree that the process for applying for citizenship is kind of ridiculous, as at some point when I was looking to apply a year or two ago the estimated processing time was around 2 years. So I agree that it shouldn't take that long to go through the process of getting your citizenship. Despite that, all it takes to be eligible to vote as a citizen...is to become one. The process is timely probably due in part to inefficient use/distribution of resources and how painfully slow the government can be. But beyond the paperwork you take a pretty easy test and then there you go. It's odd to let people who refuse to or don't bother to get their citizenship to make decisions that affect the country. I'll be applying for mine pretty soon and my sibling just recently gained theirs, it is doable. Why go participate in the things you listed yourself, only to never bother applying to be a citizen?
"Are you a permanent resident of Canada with plans of staying in Cananda?" How is the government supposed to know you plan on staying in Canada, especially if you just don't apply for citizenship? They don't know that, and many PRs leave. So imagine someone who is not a citizen votes in a federal election, for example, and then just...leaves a while later? Makes little sense. I guess, as a young immigrant who came here as a child, but who spent enough time in my home country before then to know what it was like there, I recognize that coming to Canada was/is a privilege. Canada was not obligated to let us come here, and we went through a very long, drawn-out process to get approved to immigrate to this country. It is a privilege and I think a lot of people who move, not just to Canada, but to other foreign countries in general, forget that.
Are you a citizen? If the answer is no, understand that you are a guest here, and are entitled to no special treatment other than being allowed to remain and work in this country until we citizens, through our government, determine you are no longer needed or wanted and should be returned to your homeland.
Don't like it? Tough shit. Pack your bags and head somewhere else then, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out..
>Are you a law abiding citizen?
No "permanent resident" is a citizen, duh.
>If you said yes to all of those, then I don’t see why you can’t vote.
So by your own logic, they can't.
So if someone is on vacation, it means they shouldn’t be allowed to vote? What, are people not allowed to take vacations, else they’re right to vote gets taken away?
In the province of question. I feel as though that should go without saying. Although, I suppose there would need to be additional checks and balance to avoid abuse of the system., such as being a permanent/frequent resident. My point was that I don’t think citizenship itself is necessary. If it was permanent residence, plus a couple obvious factors (paying taxes, being as functional of a member of society as you can be, not being a terrorist, etc) should be enough. That and being in the province permanently for a few months.
What the hell is an oath gonna do. If someone really wanted to take advantage of the vote, I doubt an oath they made would stop them. At least with paying taxes, it provides evidence that they both are trying to integrate and be a functioning member of society, and that they have some kind of ID in the country.
Now, my original comment was extremely short, and not well thought out. So let me rephrase. I do not think a citizenship in it’s current form should be necessary to vote. Specifically because of how long that takes. I do not think an immigrant should have to wait 3 years, plus an extra year and 2 months to actually apply for citizenship after that. I feel that is far from necessary. I feel as though someone who is a permanent resident who has been in the country for about 6 months to a year would service. Assuming a couple obviously important rules (pass a rights and responsibilities test, filed your taxes, have some form of ID, no be a serious criminal, etc).
So yes, my original comment is kind of moronic. But I do still think that citizenship requirement should be tweaked slightly.
Have you seen the price of property lately. Dictating civil rights on your ability to buy things for yourself is gatekeeping voting to the wealthy/well off.
Yes, what I said is as asinine as what you said. I was making the opposite point. Citizens should be the only people voting. This is what citizenship means.
I feel like citizenship application takes too long though. So long as the individual fulfils the other requirements themselves, and have been here for 6-12 months, I think that’s enough to either vote, or just become a citizen in the first place. Though, my original comment saying just taxes are enough is stupid, and not well thought out.
Why? Shouldn't all people paying for municipal services have a say in how the money is spent? It isn't like there are foreign policy decisions being made by municipal goverments.
Liberal MP Han Dong provided transportation for thousands of international students to vote effectively solidifying his control of the Liberal riding association in Don Valley West. We didn't think to prevent or limit this to only citizens. People that are PR are considered citizens of foreign countries despite their attachment to Canada. They will not be voting in our elections.
The next election is going to be a shit show of fraud because many of the new arrivals not understanding it's illegal for them to vote as it is not their right. Many will do it despite it being illegal. We should not be encouraging this behavior.
>>Liberal MP Han Dong provided transportation for thousands of international students to vote effectively solidifying his control of the Liberal riding association in Don Valley West.
Robert Oliphant is the Member of Parliament for Don Valley West and has been since 2015. Either your source is incorrect or you've confused it with Don Valley North.
>>We didn't think to prevent or limit this to only citizens. People that are PR are considered citizens of foreign countries despite their attachment to Canada.
The incident you are referring to was not the election, but the nomination race in which Han Dong was running against the other Liberals for that riding. PR and temporary residents, including international students, ARE allowed to vote in assuming they are registered party members.
While there's absolutely concern about international influence in any form of the election process and should be investigated as it is currently, conflating it with a federal election is egregious and dishonest.
>>Next election is going to be a shit show of fraud
Have you never voted? You can't just show up and vote. If you don't have a voter card you have to register to vote, get through two different poll workers at least unless you assume there's a MAGA-esque mass voter fraud conspiracy.
Due to the factual mistakes you make in the body of the comment I believe you aren't purposefully being maliciously misleading and instead are simple ignorant of the facts and repeating talking points and headlines you aren't fully informed about.
Edit: down vote all you like, y'all are snowflakes that can't handle truth or facts.
Yeah, for some reason the liberals and NDP allow PR, visitor visa and international students take part in their internal nomination elections.. which in turn allows influence by people who are not even eligible to vote in the actual elections.
Only the conservatives have rules stating that only people who are able to vote in public elections (full citizens) are allowed to vote in primaries or other internal elections.
I not a member so I cannot speak to their exact reason but perhaps it's because those individuals ostensibly live in those wards and pay taxes and are effected by the policies created by those politicians.
Not temporary visitors/students but if dual-citizen Snowbirds can vote from Florida, PRs should absolutely be able to vote. PRs are long term, if not lifelong, residents of Canada and pay taxes just like the rest of us.
You know that this has absolutely no impact on federal elections right? This is specifically around municipal elections. What Han Dong did was in the Liberal Party nomination and even at that is considered illegal because they used fake addresses.
no. we reserve the right as citizens to choose how the country is run. they chose to come here and pay taxes and we make our terms very clear. we do not owe them a vote for that.
No, the landlord pays the property tax via their earnings on the property. There's no "indirect" payment of property taxes. That's like arguing you don't need to pay income tax because you pay money to Safeway for your groceries, and Safeway pays income tax.
What the fuck is 'earnings on their property', it is the tenants rent. Not that it matters because you have somehow implied that when I mentioned taxation and voting that I was saying if you don't pay tax youl shouldn't vote. I was just showing that permanent residents have a stake in their community and it seems reasonable to give them a voice in the governance of the community.
And I don't understand your paying for groceries instead of paying income tax comment. We all pay taxes in multiple ways and paying GST doesn't mean you don't need to buy stamps, it is a stupid argument that has nothing to do with this discussion.
Do you actually want me to explain what 'earnings on their property's is? Who's on legal title? Landlord or the tenant? Who pays the property tax? Who's name is on that bill? Your argument is moronic and it's mind boggling that you can't see the objectivity of that through the downvotes of your original comment. You need to revisit this topic and figure out your own mental gymnastics before pulling a chair up to the table to discuss.
Also GST and income tax are two different things. Not sure why you brought up GST in response to my remark.
Permanent residents can vote in municipal elections in some provinces. All that is required is a piece of government ID and many permanent residents have that, as it is required to be a permanent resident. If Alberta pulls this back, it is just another removal of freedom and more red tape. Impressive - they talk and walk the plank more the Trudeau.
I don't have an issue with this at a municipal level. Voter turnout is poor, and anything to boost it now and for the future (permanent residents often become citizens) is good for our country. PRs can serve on committees at municipalities, can volunteer in communities and participate in the community as employees and/or students. They have already gone on a lengthy path to get their permanent residency, it is earned not given. They must prove they are participating in our communities to get it.
Being eligible to vote in provincial and federal elections should continue to require a Canadian citizenship.
Is it legal or just allowed? They shouldn't be able to vote, they aren't citizens.
This is how we ended up with busloads of Chinese students voting for MP Dong in Ontario.
What about permanent residents who pay taxes? There are lots of legitimate reasons why they might not want to become citizens… including not wanting to take a loyalty oath to King Charles.
We aren’t holding them hostage. If you don’t want to become a citizen here you don’t have to. And if you aren’t a citizen you don’t get to vote and influence change in a country you don’t want to be a citizen in.
If you don't want to become a citizen, and do what is required to make that happen, you don't get to vote.
Non citizens shouldn't have any say in how the country is run.
My argument is that as taxpayers they should not ‘arbitrarily’ disenfranchised. If there is a bona fide reason I haven’t heard it articulated, at least not for municipal or even provincial issues. I guess for federal issues you could argue national security. But these days foreign countries don’t need to have their own move to other countries to political sabotage. They just need a Reddit account or Facebook account and start the rage farming.
Nobody is being disenfranchised. If you want to be a permanent resident, make use of all the systems and benefits afforded to you as such, then you can contribute financially to said systems. If people still want to refuse to become an actual citizen because saying some words is where they draw the line then its tough titties for them.
I'd like to hear any legitimate reason why anyone who is not a citizen of a country should get to vote. Taxes isn't a reason. Don't want to pledge your allegiance to a country that makes your life better by affording you access to all sorts of systems and benefits? Feel free to leave.
It would help alleviate a lot of the stresses on this country if they did. Canada is a haven for people to use and abuse. Some people have even gained their citizenship, then renounced their pledge once they got it. It's a farce.
I was born a Canadian citizen, so it's irrelevant. If I wanted to live in another country and make use of all the benefits that entails, then yes, I'd do what is required of me.
Become a citizen. The oath to the King is part of it. I don't care how they feel. They want our citizenship, they follow our process. Their feelings be damned. We don't need them.
Then why be PR if the end goal isn't to be a Canadian one day?.
To milk our system and then take all your assets and go back home and retire, where is the benefit for canadians?
While I see where you came up with that. I can also see that it is complete rubbish. Want a day in determining the course of this nation? Become a part of it. No half measures on this one.
That's fine but that makes you a permanent resident (which may be revoked) and a guest in this country.
Not a citizen. You pay taxes to live in our country, that doesn't mean you're a Canadian and it certainly doesn't give you the right to vote.
Ponder this ridiculous, far fledged example. Americans ship 40m ppl to Canada to work, they live and work there for a year, maybe two. They propose and pass a law turning Canada into the 51st - 60th states. You are outnumbered and thus have no say in the matter. Still think it’s a great idea?
Then they have no right to vote or to demand the right to vote. If they don’t want to be a citizen then that means they don’t want the privilege that comes with that.
Please don't conflate terms that specifically imply criminal acts with following a legal legislative process to enact changes to election methods.
That's like saying changing first past the post to ranked ballots is election interference, it is not and just because you and I disagree with it doesn't make it illegal.
Otherwise, fuck this utterly nonsensical measure.
Giving PR the *legal* ability to vote would make it *not* election interference, my dude
If they voted without the legal ability to do so it would be election interference.
Changing how voting works is not illegal, either.
Your statements are an attempt to shift the Overton window regarding the definition of election interference, which IS dangerously misleading.
Hardly. This would not impact federal or provincial elections. This wouldn't allow permanent residents to travel with a Canadian passport. This wouldn't make it more difficult to deport permanent residents. This wouldn't remove the requirements to maintain your PR status.
Shouldn't people who pay taxes in a city have a say in how the city is run? What is the downside? I haven't seen anyone actually point out any concerns with the proposal.
Before you keep posting that same argument think about it. Do not international students and temporary residents also pay taxes in the cities they live? By your logic, should they not too be given the right to vote? Of course not. So stop trying to argue permanent residents deserve the right. It is a right properly reserved for citizens of this country.
it’s easier to become a Canadian citizen. just an example of how you have to actually do something to have a say in the society you want to live in. Not be a free loader.
What did you do to become a citizen? Are you suggesting we should get rid of birthright citizenship since being born Canadian is about the easiest way to become a citizen.
lmao 💀. it’s the only way to become Canadian next to getting your citizenship.. how is this so hard to grasp. A temporary resident isn’t Canadian, neither is a permanent resident. Get it?
Ok I understand that permanent residents aren't citizens and agree. What does that have to do with what we are talking about. There are two different groups of people and one group can vote in municipal elections and the other can't, some people were considering changing that and were told they can't and the only argument I have seen against it is that it is stupid which is only a valid argument up to the age of 3.
I wish us Canadians would be as organized and acted as entitled as these PR hopefuls. Imagine we all hammered the government constantly about housing, immigration and taxes?
These people are really motivated to find every sort of advantage in a country they aren't citizens in.
Of course they are. They know that we (our governments) are pushovers who care more about image than substance. We would rather throw our own under the bus than be seen as not PC/not woke/racist.
They are here to get theirs, and they will take as much as they can until someone has the will to tell them to pound sand.
Yeah, our city's council knows they are super unpopular because they are absolutely terrible, so they're just doing random shit to try to get as much support as they can for the next election, which should be next year.
As it should people have been called crazy and conspiracy theorist for saying they are trying to get as many illegals and foreigners and temps to buy vote.
Well guess what they are, as you can see they are trying.
We've devaulued citizenship to the point where voting (which is mostly meaningless anyways) is pretty much all thats left thats exclusively reserved for citizens.
not a citizen? you don't vote. this is an example of foreign interference. I'd even just open it up to Canadian born people not those who are naturalized.
Gtfo with that bullshit...
Become a citizen, shit or get off the pot. If you don't want to be a Canadian citizen, leave, and that will open up a spot for someone who does.
So how many spots are there for Canadian citizenship? Are there only allowed to be a certain number of Canadian citizens at any point in time?
Canadian citizenship didn't exist from Confederation until 1947. The *Constitution Act* of 1867 and 1982 still doesn't even give any level of government the exclusive right to create citizenship categories.
What about registered First Nations individuals who are not Canadian citizens? Why don't they get to vote on what happens in their local communities? Not all indigenous people are Canadian citizens and those that aren't don't have any straight path to Canadian citizenship.
Yes, provinces can and do have their own laws about who can vote in provincial and municipal elections. Many provinces still allowed non-Canadian commonwealth citizens to vote until the 80s. Right know those provincial laws require Canadian citizenship and being of age, although this could easily be changed by the legislature.
Creating its own class of local citizens would not turn a city into its own country. Citizenship simply means having the right to vote and to be elected to office, it is not the same as nationality or the right of abode, although those concepts are often confused. In the case of municipal citizenship this could simply mean anybody who has resided (and continues to reside) in the community for some time between 3 months to a few years.
Dude city’s or provinces giving any type of citizenship isn’t a thing. If people want the right to vote then they have to become citizens. There should be no if and or buts about that.
This is about a proposal from a city. Of course nobody is doing it in Canada right now but there is no constitutional prohibition on it being done. The only thing they can't do is restrict freedom of movement within Canada.
It's called subnational citizenship:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship#Subnational_citizenship
As for it happening, it would just take a supportive provincial government to change or delegate it.
But why aren't you supoortive of indigenous people voting in local election? Right now, a Canadian citizen can vote twice in the sane municipal election, once in a city where they live and once in a "summer village" where they own property but don't live. Yet, a First Nations individual who isn't a Canadian citizen but has practically lived in the community their whole life can't vote even once.
But you are implying First Nations who aren't citizens if you say "not a citizen you can't vote". Not every First Nations individual is a Canadian citizen and they don't have any right or straight path to become a Canadian citizen. They are allowed to live in and return to Canada but they aren't given the permanent resident status they would need to apply for Canadian citizenship.
Only citizens have the right to vote in a country. It doesn't make sense for a Canadian to get permanent residency in the US and all across Europe to vote everywhere. It shouldn't be the case here.
I don’t believe they can. Municipalities are owned and run by the provinces.
Provinces also can’t create their own citizenship, that would be separatist and treasonous.
Municipalities are creatures of the provinces. The provinces could delegate to the municipalities the task of deciding who gets to vote in municipal elections by saying in the law something like, "The eligibility requirements to vote in a municipal election shall be prescribed by by-law of the municipality".
There is nothing seperatist or treasonous about creating a subnational citizenship based on residence. Citizenship is simply political membership in a governmental organization (a municipality in this case). The only restriction that exists under the constitution is that the provinces and its creatures can't prevent a Canadian citizen or permanent resident from moving there. Quebec is always talking about "Quebec citizens" and "Ontario citizens" anyways, and Alberta now claims itself to be sovereign.
If you look up section 91 of the Constitution Act, 1867, you will see that citizenship is not enumerated as being in the jurisdiction of the federal government. You will then see that municipal institutions are listed as item 8 and civil rights are listed as item 13 in section 92 as being in the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces. It logically follows that membership (citizenship) in a municipal organization is solely in the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the provinces who could delegate it down to the municipalities.
If we allow permanent residents to vote, it opens canada to election interference. Permanent residency is easy to obtain and can be used by other countries to sway the election results. Example, China sends one million Chinese citizens here and threatens to have them deported back to China if they don't vote liberal.
Why do leftist want to destroy Canada starting with the foundation? They appear to have hatred of anything Canadian, white, male, Christian, and law-and-order.
Hey guys !
This user u/Peatore is saying that people can hold Canadian passport without being a Canadian citizen !
Apparently he was issued a Canadian passport before becoming a citizen.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt and checked government’s website.
It says “You must provide proof of Canadian citizenship if you’re applying for a new adult passport.
It has to be the original proof of citizenship document.
We do not accept photocopies, even if they’re signed.
We’ll return it to you once we verify it.
If you apply in person, we may verify the document and return it to you right away”
I had to provide my Birth certificate when I was getting my first passport 🤷
Can anyone tell me if it’s true ? Can you hold a Canadian passport without being a Canadian citizen ?
[Government of Canada passport](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/new-adult-passport/citizenship-proof.html#)
Losing what ? You have not provided any proof !
You are saying you were issued a Canadian passport without being a Canadian citizen !
Prove it.
We need to get to the bottom of this !
We already did.
You are too physically weak to be correct.
If you were smart enough to be correct, you would have been smart enough to have gotten stronger and wouldn't be so weak.
It's bulletproof logic. There is no coming back from that.
I will no longer participate in your gaslighting and lies.
I don't know what you get out of posting bait, but I'm done feeding into it.
Maybe if you could squatt 225 to parallel, i could consider anything you say.
What bait ?
In order to get a Canadian passport one must be a Canadian citizen , and I provided proof but you did not and claiming that you were able to apply for a Canadian passport without being a citizen, when I asked you to provide proof or show me your source you sent me a link that was pornography !
There is no reason why permanent residents should not be allowed to vote in municipal or provincial elections where there are no questions of national security. It is a question of taxation without representation.
There are obvious questions of national security at the provincial level.
Lots of major decisions regarding economic policy are made at the provincial level, for example resources are owned and are jurisdiction of the provinces. Our entire oil industry is essentially run by the Alberta Government.
Education is entirely provincial. Foreign subversives could import voters to change our education curriculums and have the Confucius Institute force Chinese propaganda on our youth. They already tried that, actually.
There are provincial police forces in Ontario and Quebec.
There are technically no such thing as municipalities, they are just part of the provinces.
Nope, not happening. Those who want non-citizens to vote in our elections are either entitled foreigners, or anti-Canadian fifth columns
There is no reason why permanent residents should not be allowed to vote in municipal or provincial elections where there are no questions of national security. It is a question of taxation without representation.
Except that’s a privilege that comes with citizenship not permanent residency. If they feel they have no representation then they should become a citizen. It’s really simply.
Not at the levels we are bringing them in.
Why should someone whose barely lived in this country decided anything to do with how it's run.
You shouldn't be allowed to vote till you've been a citizen for a decade.
Only Canadians should vote
For mayoral elections as well. I believe they don't do any checks whether you are a citizen or not for these elections.
literally one of the main things about citizenship lol
Don’t tell Trudeau about this motion.
Anyone who pays provincial tax should be allowed to vote.
Beyond dystopian way of thought…
How?
As permanent resident, no, I shouldn't be able to vote until I get citizenship.
Are you a functioning member of society? Are you a law abiding citizen? Do you benefit and chip into your economy by working? Do you chip into your society by paying taxes? Are you a permanent resident of Canada with plans of staying in Canada? If you said yes to all of those, then I don’t see why you can’t vote. Hell, most of that is the list of elegbility to become a citizen anyway. The only one missing is the “you need to stay in the country for 3 out of the last 5 years”. But I feel as though that should be much shorter. That, and applying for citizen ship itself takes 14 months. I feel like that is an unfair amount of time to restrict someone who is otherwise, a fully functioning and participating member of society.
Why should I as someone who holds citizenship to an entirely different, foreign country, have a say in what happens in this one? I do agree that the process for applying for citizenship is kind of ridiculous, as at some point when I was looking to apply a year or two ago the estimated processing time was around 2 years. So I agree that it shouldn't take that long to go through the process of getting your citizenship. Despite that, all it takes to be eligible to vote as a citizen...is to become one. The process is timely probably due in part to inefficient use/distribution of resources and how painfully slow the government can be. But beyond the paperwork you take a pretty easy test and then there you go. It's odd to let people who refuse to or don't bother to get their citizenship to make decisions that affect the country. I'll be applying for mine pretty soon and my sibling just recently gained theirs, it is doable. Why go participate in the things you listed yourself, only to never bother applying to be a citizen? "Are you a permanent resident of Canada with plans of staying in Cananda?" How is the government supposed to know you plan on staying in Canada, especially if you just don't apply for citizenship? They don't know that, and many PRs leave. So imagine someone who is not a citizen votes in a federal election, for example, and then just...leaves a while later? Makes little sense. I guess, as a young immigrant who came here as a child, but who spent enough time in my home country before then to know what it was like there, I recognize that coming to Canada was/is a privilege. Canada was not obligated to let us come here, and we went through a very long, drawn-out process to get approved to immigrate to this country. It is a privilege and I think a lot of people who move, not just to Canada, but to other foreign countries in general, forget that.
Are you a citizen? If the answer is no, understand that you are a guest here, and are entitled to no special treatment other than being allowed to remain and work in this country until we citizens, through our government, determine you are no longer needed or wanted and should be returned to your homeland. Don't like it? Tough shit. Pack your bags and head somewhere else then, and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out..
>Are you a law abiding citizen? No "permanent resident" is a citizen, duh. >If you said yes to all of those, then I don’t see why you can’t vote. So by your own logic, they can't.
Semantics. But to appease you, law abiding individuals. Happy?
No, because you admit that doesn't even make them at citizen, which you need to be to vote.
Absolutely not. That logic would have people on vacation voting. Think before you propose solutions.
So if someone is on vacation, it means they shouldn’t be allowed to vote? What, are people not allowed to take vacations, else they’re right to vote gets taken away?
Well no, because they are citizens.
So guy who lives in Saskatchewan works in Alberta only never lives in Alberta should vote because he pays taxes???
In the province of question. I feel as though that should go without saying. Although, I suppose there would need to be additional checks and balance to avoid abuse of the system., such as being a permanent/frequent resident. My point was that I don’t think citizenship itself is necessary. If it was permanent residence, plus a couple obvious factors (paying taxes, being as functional of a member of society as you can be, not being a terrorist, etc) should be enough. That and being in the province permanently for a few months.
Because paying a government money = oath of allegiance to that country? That's moronic at best, dangerous treason at worst. Wow.
What the hell is an oath gonna do. If someone really wanted to take advantage of the vote, I doubt an oath they made would stop them. At least with paying taxes, it provides evidence that they both are trying to integrate and be a functioning member of society, and that they have some kind of ID in the country. Now, my original comment was extremely short, and not well thought out. So let me rephrase. I do not think a citizenship in it’s current form should be necessary to vote. Specifically because of how long that takes. I do not think an immigrant should have to wait 3 years, plus an extra year and 2 months to actually apply for citizenship after that. I feel that is far from necessary. I feel as though someone who is a permanent resident who has been in the country for about 6 months to a year would service. Assuming a couple obviously important rules (pass a rights and responsibilities test, filed your taxes, have some form of ID, no be a serious criminal, etc). So yes, my original comment is kind of moronic. But I do still think that citizenship requirement should be tweaked slightly.
No
Noooooope
You pay tax because you earn here and use infrastructure. Voting is a privilege to the people that decided to become a part of the country.
Totally agree, if you don't pay any net tax, no vote ...
Only people who own property should be allowed to vote.
Have you seen the price of property lately. Dictating civil rights on your ability to buy things for yourself is gatekeeping voting to the wealthy/well off.
Yes, what I said is as asinine as what you said. I was making the opposite point. Citizens should be the only people voting. This is what citizenship means.
I feel like citizenship application takes too long though. So long as the individual fulfils the other requirements themselves, and have been here for 6-12 months, I think that’s enough to either vote, or just become a citizen in the first place. Though, my original comment saying just taxes are enough is stupid, and not well thought out.
That’s by design, try to get citizenship in any G7 country. It takes a while.
Why? Shouldn't all people paying for municipal services have a say in how the money is spent? It isn't like there are foreign policy decisions being made by municipal goverments.
Liberal MP Han Dong provided transportation for thousands of international students to vote effectively solidifying his control of the Liberal riding association in Don Valley West. We didn't think to prevent or limit this to only citizens. People that are PR are considered citizens of foreign countries despite their attachment to Canada. They will not be voting in our elections. The next election is going to be a shit show of fraud because many of the new arrivals not understanding it's illegal for them to vote as it is not their right. Many will do it despite it being illegal. We should not be encouraging this behavior.
>>Liberal MP Han Dong provided transportation for thousands of international students to vote effectively solidifying his control of the Liberal riding association in Don Valley West. Robert Oliphant is the Member of Parliament for Don Valley West and has been since 2015. Either your source is incorrect or you've confused it with Don Valley North. >>We didn't think to prevent or limit this to only citizens. People that are PR are considered citizens of foreign countries despite their attachment to Canada. The incident you are referring to was not the election, but the nomination race in which Han Dong was running against the other Liberals for that riding. PR and temporary residents, including international students, ARE allowed to vote in assuming they are registered party members. While there's absolutely concern about international influence in any form of the election process and should be investigated as it is currently, conflating it with a federal election is egregious and dishonest. >>Next election is going to be a shit show of fraud Have you never voted? You can't just show up and vote. If you don't have a voter card you have to register to vote, get through two different poll workers at least unless you assume there's a MAGA-esque mass voter fraud conspiracy. Due to the factual mistakes you make in the body of the comment I believe you aren't purposefully being maliciously misleading and instead are simple ignorant of the facts and repeating talking points and headlines you aren't fully informed about. Edit: down vote all you like, y'all are snowflakes that can't handle truth or facts.
Yeah, for some reason the liberals and NDP allow PR, visitor visa and international students take part in their internal nomination elections.. which in turn allows influence by people who are not even eligible to vote in the actual elections. Only the conservatives have rules stating that only people who are able to vote in public elections (full citizens) are allowed to vote in primaries or other internal elections.
I not a member so I cannot speak to their exact reason but perhaps it's because those individuals ostensibly live in those wards and pay taxes and are effected by the policies created by those politicians. Not temporary visitors/students but if dual-citizen Snowbirds can vote from Florida, PRs should absolutely be able to vote. PRs are long term, if not lifelong, residents of Canada and pay taxes just like the rest of us.
You know that this has absolutely no impact on federal elections right? This is specifically around municipal elections. What Han Dong did was in the Liberal Party nomination and even at that is considered illegal because they used fake addresses.
no. we reserve the right as citizens to choose how the country is run. they chose to come here and pay taxes and we make our terms very clear. we do not owe them a vote for that.
So you're literally saying every single renter that doesn't pay property tax should lose their right to vote in municipal elections?
No I am not. They are paying via the property tax paid by the landlords.
No, the landlord pays the property tax via their earnings on the property. There's no "indirect" payment of property taxes. That's like arguing you don't need to pay income tax because you pay money to Safeway for your groceries, and Safeway pays income tax.
What the fuck is 'earnings on their property', it is the tenants rent. Not that it matters because you have somehow implied that when I mentioned taxation and voting that I was saying if you don't pay tax youl shouldn't vote. I was just showing that permanent residents have a stake in their community and it seems reasonable to give them a voice in the governance of the community. And I don't understand your paying for groceries instead of paying income tax comment. We all pay taxes in multiple ways and paying GST doesn't mean you don't need to buy stamps, it is a stupid argument that has nothing to do with this discussion.
Do you actually want me to explain what 'earnings on their property's is? Who's on legal title? Landlord or the tenant? Who pays the property tax? Who's name is on that bill? Your argument is moronic and it's mind boggling that you can't see the objectivity of that through the downvotes of your original comment. You need to revisit this topic and figure out your own mental gymnastics before pulling a chair up to the table to discuss. Also GST and income tax are two different things. Not sure why you brought up GST in response to my remark.
Why?
Permanent residents can vote in municipal elections in some provinces. All that is required is a piece of government ID and many permanent residents have that, as it is required to be a permanent resident. If Alberta pulls this back, it is just another removal of freedom and more red tape. Impressive - they talk and walk the plank more the Trudeau. I don't have an issue with this at a municipal level. Voter turnout is poor, and anything to boost it now and for the future (permanent residents often become citizens) is good for our country. PRs can serve on committees at municipalities, can volunteer in communities and participate in the community as employees and/or students. They have already gone on a lengthy path to get their permanent residency, it is earned not given. They must prove they are participating in our communities to get it. Being eligible to vote in provincial and federal elections should continue to require a Canadian citizenship.
Is it legal or just allowed? They shouldn't be able to vote, they aren't citizens. This is how we ended up with busloads of Chinese students voting for MP Dong in Ontario.
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Why?
Only citizens should be able to vote.
specifically resident citizens who pay taxes
What about permanent residents who pay taxes? There are lots of legitimate reasons why they might not want to become citizens… including not wanting to take a loyalty oath to King Charles.
We aren’t holding them hostage. If you don’t want to become a citizen here you don’t have to. And if you aren’t a citizen you don’t get to vote and influence change in a country you don’t want to be a citizen in.
If you don't want to become a citizen, and do what is required to make that happen, you don't get to vote. Non citizens shouldn't have any say in how the country is run.
My argument is that as taxpayers they should not ‘arbitrarily’ disenfranchised. If there is a bona fide reason I haven’t heard it articulated, at least not for municipal or even provincial issues. I guess for federal issues you could argue national security. But these days foreign countries don’t need to have their own move to other countries to political sabotage. They just need a Reddit account or Facebook account and start the rage farming.
Nobody is being disenfranchised. If you want to be a permanent resident, make use of all the systems and benefits afforded to you as such, then you can contribute financially to said systems. If people still want to refuse to become an actual citizen because saying some words is where they draw the line then its tough titties for them. I'd like to hear any legitimate reason why anyone who is not a citizen of a country should get to vote. Taxes isn't a reason. Don't want to pledge your allegiance to a country that makes your life better by affording you access to all sorts of systems and benefits? Feel free to leave. It would help alleviate a lot of the stresses on this country if they did. Canada is a haven for people to use and abuse. Some people have even gained their citizenship, then renounced their pledge once they got it. It's a farce.
I cant believe this has to be said. You would think its obvious.
The pledge is not loyalty to Canada. It is loyalty to King Charles. I assume you would have no issue with taking that oath?
I was born a Canadian citizen, so it's irrelevant. If I wanted to live in another country and make use of all the benefits that entails, then yes, I'd do what is required of me.
Become a citizen. The oath to the King is part of it. I don't care how they feel. They want our citizenship, they follow our process. Their feelings be damned. We don't need them.
They’re disenfranchising themselves.
Then why be PR if the end goal isn't to be a Canadian one day?. To milk our system and then take all your assets and go back home and retire, where is the benefit for canadians?
While I see where you came up with that. I can also see that it is complete rubbish. Want a day in determining the course of this nation? Become a part of it. No half measures on this one.
What a Reddit moment. Hilarious. Hey, can tourists vote? They pay sales taxes. LOL
That's fine but that makes you a permanent resident (which may be revoked) and a guest in this country. Not a citizen. You pay taxes to live in our country, that doesn't mean you're a Canadian and it certainly doesn't give you the right to vote.
Is there a justification for this or is your position simply that”that’s the way it is”? Legit curious
Ponder this ridiculous, far fledged example. Americans ship 40m ppl to Canada to work, they live and work there for a year, maybe two. They propose and pass a law turning Canada into the 51st - 60th states. You are outnumbered and thus have no say in the matter. Still think it’s a great idea?
Because if you don't want to be Canadian, that's your decision but don't expect to be treated like one or to have a say in how this country is run.
if people dont even want to become citizens of my community, im not interested in having them directing policy for my community
Then they don't vote. Any other dumb questions?
Well too bad then.
Then they have no right to vote or to demand the right to vote. If they don’t want to be a citizen then that means they don’t want the privilege that comes with that.
Fuck them, then. They're guests here, and they can follow the rules and laws we citizens have established, or they can GTFO.
Excellent. We dont need anymore election interference.
Please don't conflate terms that specifically imply criminal acts with following a legal legislative process to enact changes to election methods. That's like saying changing first past the post to ranked ballots is election interference, it is not and just because you and I disagree with it doesn't make it illegal. Otherwise, fuck this utterly nonsensical measure.
People who are not citizens of Canada voting in an election is election intereference. Your point is moot and it is dangerously misleading.
Giving PR the *legal* ability to vote would make it *not* election interference, my dude If they voted without the legal ability to do so it would be election interference. Changing how voting works is not illegal, either. Your statements are an attempt to shift the Overton window regarding the definition of election interference, which IS dangerously misleading.
It would make citizenship pointless
that is the point
Thats why they’re bringing in 500k PR a year , importing votes ! Got it
I'm sure this comment will be removed justvlike mines was after being downvoted...
PR isnt citizenship.
Yes, one of the things that makes it not citizenship is that they can't vote. That's what they're saying
Ok. I interpreted them as saying that a PR not being able to vote made citezenship useless. I went the wrong way with that.
It's already pointless. We have already diluted it's value. You get citizenship just after 3 years of PR. It should be 10.
What if the city created its own municipal citizenship and defined it as x number of months/years residence in the community?
Hardly. This would not impact federal or provincial elections. This wouldn't allow permanent residents to travel with a Canadian passport. This wouldn't make it more difficult to deport permanent residents. This wouldn't remove the requirements to maintain your PR status.
No get citizenship, no extra benefits prior to that
Good. Common sense prevailed. Not a Canadian, you don’t get a vote. Period.
Good.
GOOD
What the f? How is this thing even been brought up at the first place
Shouldn't people who pay taxes in a city have a say in how the city is run? What is the downside? I haven't seen anyone actually point out any concerns with the proposal.
Before you keep posting that same argument think about it. Do not international students and temporary residents also pay taxes in the cities they live? By your logic, should they not too be given the right to vote? Of course not. So stop trying to argue permanent residents deserve the right. It is a right properly reserved for citizens of this country.
They can show up at city hall and have a say, but they can't have a vote.
No, because you’re not a citizen, watch starship troopers. That’s will help.
So we should look to a fictional fascist society for examples of what we should be doing?
it’s easier to become a Canadian citizen. just an example of how you have to actually do something to have a say in the society you want to live in. Not be a free loader.
What did you do to become a citizen? Are you suggesting we should get rid of birthright citizenship since being born Canadian is about the easiest way to become a citizen.
lmao 💀. it’s the only way to become Canadian next to getting your citizenship.. how is this so hard to grasp. A temporary resident isn’t Canadian, neither is a permanent resident. Get it?
Ok I understand that permanent residents aren't citizens and agree. What does that have to do with what we are talking about. There are two different groups of people and one group can vote in municipal elections and the other can't, some people were considering changing that and were told they can't and the only argument I have seen against it is that it is stupid which is only a valid argument up to the age of 3.
“Stupid argument” in your opinion. There’s a reason it was rules down. The majority only want canadian citizens voting.
That’s a weird proposal, glad it was shut down.
They're that desperate for votes...
Permanent residents stfu. Until you are citizens, stop with your goofy grandstanding.
Good
I wish us Canadians would be as organized and acted as entitled as these PR hopefuls. Imagine we all hammered the government constantly about housing, immigration and taxes? These people are really motivated to find every sort of advantage in a country they aren't citizens in.
Of course they are. They know that we (our governments) are pushovers who care more about image than substance. We would rather throw our own under the bus than be seen as not PC/not woke/racist. They are here to get theirs, and they will take as much as they can until someone has the will to tell them to pound sand.
PRs aren't citizens fuck off
And election interference isn't a thing. BAHAHAHAHA
Yeah, our city's council knows they are super unpopular because they are absolutely terrible, so they're just doing random shit to try to get as much support as they can for the next election, which should be next year.
This counsel can get fucked. They did not campaign on ANY of this nonsense. Fuck Gondeck and her goons
Totally not treason
As it should people have been called crazy and conspiracy theorist for saying they are trying to get as many illegals and foreigners and temps to buy vote. Well guess what they are, as you can see they are trying.
We've devaulued citizenship to the point where voting (which is mostly meaningless anyways) is pretty much all thats left thats exclusively reserved for citizens.
not a citizen? you don't vote. this is an example of foreign interference. I'd even just open it up to Canadian born people not those who are naturalized.
What if they created Calgary citizenship?
Gtfo with that bullshit... Become a citizen, shit or get off the pot. If you don't want to be a Canadian citizen, leave, and that will open up a spot for someone who does.
So how many spots are there for Canadian citizenship? Are there only allowed to be a certain number of Canadian citizens at any point in time? Canadian citizenship didn't exist from Confederation until 1947. The *Constitution Act* of 1867 and 1982 still doesn't even give any level of government the exclusive right to create citizenship categories. What about registered First Nations individuals who are not Canadian citizens? Why don't they get to vote on what happens in their local communities? Not all indigenous people are Canadian citizens and those that aren't don't have any straight path to Canadian citizenship.
Umm provinces can’t do that. That would effectively turn Calgary into its own country and there’s no dam way that’s legal or happening.
Yes, provinces can and do have their own laws about who can vote in provincial and municipal elections. Many provinces still allowed non-Canadian commonwealth citizens to vote until the 80s. Right know those provincial laws require Canadian citizenship and being of age, although this could easily be changed by the legislature. Creating its own class of local citizens would not turn a city into its own country. Citizenship simply means having the right to vote and to be elected to office, it is not the same as nationality or the right of abode, although those concepts are often confused. In the case of municipal citizenship this could simply mean anybody who has resided (and continues to reside) in the community for some time between 3 months to a few years.
Dude city’s or provinces giving any type of citizenship isn’t a thing. If people want the right to vote then they have to become citizens. There should be no if and or buts about that.
This is about a proposal from a city. Of course nobody is doing it in Canada right now but there is no constitutional prohibition on it being done. The only thing they can't do is restrict freedom of movement within Canada. It's called subnational citizenship: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship#Subnational_citizenship
Yeah I don’t see that ever happening here nor would I support it.
As for it happening, it would just take a supportive provincial government to change or delegate it. But why aren't you supoortive of indigenous people voting in local election? Right now, a Canadian citizen can vote twice in the sane municipal election, once in a city where they live and once in a "summer village" where they own property but don't live. Yet, a First Nations individual who isn't a Canadian citizen but has practically lived in the community their whole life can't vote even once.
If your Not a citizen you can’t vote… no where in any of this convo have I even mentioned First Nations that’s on you bud.
But you are implying First Nations who aren't citizens if you say "not a citizen you can't vote". Not every First Nations individual is a Canadian citizen and they don't have any right or straight path to become a Canadian citizen. They are allowed to live in and return to Canada but they aren't given the permanent resident status they would need to apply for Canadian citizenship.
What are you talking about “First Nations individual who isn’t a Canadian citizen” They are Canadian citizens.
Not all of them are. Some are US citizens or citizens of another country and some are stateless (other than being citizens in their First Nation).
Klaus:
Yes, we don’t need Trudeau importing more votes like Biden is doing down south
May as well just use a Twitter poll for elections
As a permanent resident of Canada, this is the correct choice. Only citizens should ever be allowed to vote
Never. Not a citizen. No vote. Simple
Being a citizen of Canada is like being married to a prostitute, only worse.
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Setting yourself up for some great jokes about your mom
Only citizens have the right to vote in a country. It doesn't make sense for a Canadian to get permanent residency in the US and all across Europe to vote everywhere. It shouldn't be the case here.
What if Calgary created its own Calgary citizenship?
I don’t believe they can. Municipalities are owned and run by the provinces. Provinces also can’t create their own citizenship, that would be separatist and treasonous.
Municipalities are creatures of the provinces. The provinces could delegate to the municipalities the task of deciding who gets to vote in municipal elections by saying in the law something like, "The eligibility requirements to vote in a municipal election shall be prescribed by by-law of the municipality". There is nothing seperatist or treasonous about creating a subnational citizenship based on residence. Citizenship is simply political membership in a governmental organization (a municipality in this case). The only restriction that exists under the constitution is that the provinces and its creatures can't prevent a Canadian citizen or permanent resident from moving there. Quebec is always talking about "Quebec citizens" and "Ontario citizens" anyways, and Alberta now claims itself to be sovereign. If you look up section 91 of the Constitution Act, 1867, you will see that citizenship is not enumerated as being in the jurisdiction of the federal government. You will then see that municipal institutions are listed as item 8 and civil rights are listed as item 13 in section 92 as being in the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces. It logically follows that membership (citizenship) in a municipal organization is solely in the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the provinces who could delegate it down to the municipalities.
Who's the idiot that brought this proposal up in the first place.
If we allow permanent residents to vote, it opens canada to election interference. Permanent residency is easy to obtain and can be used by other countries to sway the election results. Example, China sends one million Chinese citizens here and threatens to have them deported back to China if they don't vote liberal.
Non-citizens voting in ANY election should be considered voter fraud.
Give it a week and we will see a massive protest about this
Hope that happens everywhere!
You want a say, bend the knee!
This country is going to hell. wtf is this proposal?
Why do leftist want to destroy Canada starting with the foundation? They appear to have hatred of anything Canadian, white, male, Christian, and law-and-order.
This shouldn’t even be a thought in someone’s mind. Are you kidding me
Fuck no...want to vote become a citizen.
vote buying
Don't they just ask for your address, not your citizenship?
The people who brought forward this petition should be named and shamed. This is beyond ridiculous.
Find out who proposed it and charge them with treason. Might as well let Xi and Putin both vote in Canadian elections holy f, wake up Canadians.
Hey guys ! This user u/Peatore is saying that people can hold Canadian passport without being a Canadian citizen ! Apparently he was issued a Canadian passport before becoming a citizen. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and checked government’s website. It says “You must provide proof of Canadian citizenship if you’re applying for a new adult passport. It has to be the original proof of citizenship document. We do not accept photocopies, even if they’re signed. We’ll return it to you once we verify it. If you apply in person, we may verify the document and return it to you right away” I had to provide my Birth certificate when I was getting my first passport 🤷 Can anyone tell me if it’s true ? Can you hold a Canadian passport without being a Canadian citizen ? [Government of Canada passport](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/new-adult-passport/citizenship-proof.html#)
That's really sad, trying to crowd source arguments after already losing.
Losing what ? You have not provided any proof ! You are saying you were issued a Canadian passport without being a Canadian citizen ! Prove it. We need to get to the bottom of this !
We already did. You are too physically weak to be correct. If you were smart enough to be correct, you would have been smart enough to have gotten stronger and wouldn't be so weak. It's bulletproof logic. There is no coming back from that.
No you did not provide any documentation or proof , and you’re a liar and now spreading misinformation.
I will no longer participate in your gaslighting and lies. I don't know what you get out of posting bait, but I'm done feeding into it. Maybe if you could squatt 225 to parallel, i could consider anything you say.
What bait ? In order to get a Canadian passport one must be a Canadian citizen , and I provided proof but you did not and claiming that you were able to apply for a Canadian passport without being a citizen, when I asked you to provide proof or show me your source you sent me a link that was pornography !
Yes, a youtube video essay on why you are wrong is porn. If that isn't outing yourself as a troll, i don't know what is Find a better hobby.
There is no reason why permanent residents should not be allowed to vote in municipal or provincial elections where there are no questions of national security. It is a question of taxation without representation.
There are obvious questions of national security at the provincial level. Lots of major decisions regarding economic policy are made at the provincial level, for example resources are owned and are jurisdiction of the provinces. Our entire oil industry is essentially run by the Alberta Government. Education is entirely provincial. Foreign subversives could import voters to change our education curriculums and have the Confucius Institute force Chinese propaganda on our youth. They already tried that, actually. There are provincial police forces in Ontario and Quebec. There are technically no such thing as municipalities, they are just part of the provinces. Nope, not happening. Those who want non-citizens to vote in our elections are either entitled foreigners, or anti-Canadian fifth columns
There is no reason why permanent residents should not be allowed to vote in municipal or provincial elections where there are no questions of national security. It is a question of taxation without representation.
Deal with it or go home???
Except that’s a privilege that comes with citizenship not permanent residency. If they feel they have no representation then they should become a citizen. It’s really simply.
Not at the levels we are bringing them in. Why should someone whose barely lived in this country decided anything to do with how it's run. You shouldn't be allowed to vote till you've been a citizen for a decade.
Stop trying to push this stupid ass idea lol. Citizens vote. That’s it, no exceptions.