Before participating, consider taking a glance at [our rules page](/r/CapitalismvSocialism/wiki/rules) if you haven't before.
We don't allow **violent or dehumanizing rhetoric**. The subreddit is for discussing what ideas are best for society, not for telling the other side you think you could beat them in a fight. That doesn't do anything to forward a productive dialogue.
Please report comments that violent our rules, but don't report people just for disagreeing with you or for being wrong about stuff.
Tired of arguing on reddit? Consider [joining us on Discord.](http://discord.com/invite/politicscafe)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CapitalismVSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Vooruit wants to increase minimum wages to 2500 euros in Belgium. In Luxembourg the minimum wage is already above 2500 euros. If nearby countries collectively do this then it will be good.
I like how vooruit has rebrand itself. But TBH, I've traditionally seen that party as two-faced.
On one hand, they show up in BXL and sing a song of peace, love, european cooperation, communities cooperation, and welfare state.
Meanwhile, on the other, they drive 20 km out to the BHV and then complain about expats and "verfransing". As if they were not just trying to woo expat voters literally 30 minutes earlier.
And what cooperation have they actually achieved at either the federal level or the European level in the past 15 years?
Where would someone find information of what political parties have achieved the last 5 years?
I just know that vooruit has strived for higher minimum pensions and higher spending at healthcare. That they already worked toward a higher minimum wage.
The minimum wage in Belgium is a lot higher than in France for example.
I've read on kies24 and other such articles the view points of all the political parties and vooruit aligns most with my own views.
You say vooruit is against expats, I'm curious about that
Where did you see that?
2500 euros is absolute lunacy for a minimum wage. It's basically the wage of an engineer in Belgium.
That would bring massive unemployment in every sector.
"The average engineer in our country earns 4,345 euros gross. This means that an average engineer earns about 13% more than the average employee, who can count on 3,881 euros gross monthly."
Vooruit wants to increase minimum wage to 2500 euros
https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20240430_95761619#:~:text=In%20Google%20Play-,Vooruit%20wil%20minimumlonen%20verhogen%20naar%202.500%20euro%20per%20maand%3A%20%E2%80%9CZo,de%20vooravond%20van%201%20mei.
When most wealth creation (fueled by the working majority) is allocated on a tiny minority's hands and hidden off on tax havens this doesn't do anything for society. You don't care about a functioning society though. You have no real solutions to poverty or homelessness and bootlick the parasite class
Actually, in an affluent liberal democracy, most taxes are paid by upper income people, and a fair chunk if it is redistributed to lower income people.
You couldn't be more wrong.
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-pays-the-most-taxes-experts-explain-2023-deadline/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-pays-the-most-taxes-experts-explain-2023-deadline/)
The highest-earning Americans pay the most in combined federal, state and local taxes, the Tax Foundation noted. As a group, the top quintile — those earning $130,001 or more annually — paid $3.23 trillion in taxes, compared with $142 billion for the bottom quintile, or those earning less than $25,000.
>Worst article ever seen, more ads than words.
Do you disagree with its conclusion?
>Also is sales tax not a thing?
So are GST/HST rebates for lower income people.
>Most wealth is built through improving society in some way.
Price gouging, exploitation, wage theft, private equity, climate change, starvation and food waste, market manipulation, corruption, corporate lobbying, financial speculation, subjectivity of the statement "improving society", etc. These account for tens of trillions or more in wealth.
Have you considered the possibility that maybe you're wrong?
Which is the ruling class, the ones who actually write laws and has enforcer goons. I know you socialists love your state, but let's be clear, it is akin to a mafia
I also subscribe to the SE newsletter. What I would point out is that,
1. Its not that opinions have changed much about that in Europe over the past few decades.
2. Its actually a political fault line. Some see a problem. Others see a solution. Been that way since the 19th century
what is most important about Europe is that it lives in about 60% of America's per capita GDP. It is too socialistic. They would live at 30% of our GDP if not for our inventions. Silicon Valley is in the United States it is not in Europe.
Oh shush it Jefferson, you know very well that the local purchasing power in Europe never stagnated. It kept on track as if GDP never stagnated. It just allows the EU to be an export area of 8,75% more export than import while the USA is doomed to be indebted to the world with a staggering import of 33% more than export. This because you're too expensive to buy from. The quality isn't worth the price tag. Only silicon valley is doing some good to the world. So that the world can finally use these dollars for a change.
If you refuse to learn then you just spout nonsense.
Maybe just leave your country for once
please don't be stupid. If England were a state in the United States it would be about equal to Mississippi our poorest state in terms of per capita income.
The optimal minimum wage to help poor people overall the most is not nessicarily a living wage.
This is because minimum wadge increases do two things: they increase the average wadge of poor people with jobs, and lower the number of jobs available to poor people because it no longer becomes profitable to employ them. If the number of people who loose their jobs or cant find a job the would have been able to with a lower minimum wage is high enough compared to the minimum wage increase, then it has literally made the poor worse off.
If you want to help the poor, give them welfare directly, as that literally makes their lives better. Don't use minimum wage, its literally a indirect tax on the poor that sometimes helps them and sometimes hurts them.
Thus I am against the minimum wage being bery high. Additionally in the US <1% of workers are paid minimum wadge.
Being unemployed makes them live on living wage or unemployment benefits. Education is free.
So what this does is take the least productive labourers out of the economy and put their time to better use in order to increase their human capital and then through usage of a trampoline effect put them back into the economy at a higher production rate.
The nordic model is one of the most successful models on earth by several measurements including quality of life, happiness, equality, quality education, and healthcare outcomes. Neoliberalism does not match up.
Norway - country that pays for everything via oil and all those Nordic countries and now suffering because of unchecked immigration from places that don’t have morals or a work
Ethic.
Norway doesn't pay for everything via oil and gas. They're diversifying so that they will be less reliant on them, and they have a huge wealth fund that will give them all the breathing room they need to do so.
Nordic countries are some of the best countries on earth to live which makes people want to emigrate to them. They're doing fine.
Yes look at sweeen and the massive increase in crime. No one should ever divest from fossil fuels - if Norway accomplishes that they will be bankrupt in 10 years. Fossil fuels and nuclear only.
Debatable.
Having someone flip burgers while unable to escape poverty would be quite dramatically worse for society than having higher social mobility through allowing that person to live on benefits while educating himself and being catapulted to a position where he can be a lot more productive than just flipping burgers.
If it were that clearly beneficial, a company would be more than willing to pay for their education rather than them needing to live off of benefits.
It would be worse for society if the cost of providing them that education is greater than the productivity gain, which is very possible if not likely.
Why would the flipping burger company pay for the education to lose an employee and having to pay more for the next employee on top of that since the supply of low wage employees decreased.
Doesn't make any sense now does it
They wouldn’t. A welding company, for example, would pay for them to learn to become a welder. Look up corporate scholarships, or the whole concept of apprenticeship. It’s all generally the same idea, companies are more than willing to train their workforce and invest in human capital if it means a more productive workforce (and thus more profit) for them.
There’s also the possibility of student loans, it the worker in question wanted more flexibility with what they study and are confident they can pay the debt.
In Europe we have free education. Why? Well, our healthcare is cheap. 8% of GDP goes to healthcare. Like 5% goes to education.
In USA 16% goes to healthcare and 6% to education.
13% Vs 22%. So our education is completely and utterly free. Even more than free, we get paid to be educated. Whoopsiedaisy.
No, welder companies don't pay for your education, people jobhop every 2 years because their companies don't even give them enough of a raise. They'd pay for their slaves their education though. Assets 😳
You think people are rational. Far from it. Transparency of information is not there so your economics book goes straight out of the window.
Benefits and tax paid education is the way to go.
Those are non contradictory statements.
The middle class is very strong if the middle 80% earn 10k per year, the bottom earns 2k, and the top 20k.
When the middle earns 12k, the bottom 10k, and the top 100k the middle class is far weaker.
But the second one is far better off society.
First one is a middle class that have property rights while the latter is a society where only the upper class have property rights.
Because of the increase of money into the system in the latter one, it will also cause a lot of inflation.
So the first one is the better society for the middle class and the latter is the better society for the upper class.
Also you don't have to choose between either. There are wealthy countries that have a lot of inequality, there are wealthy countries with little inequality. Poor variants of both exist as well.
It's silly. I rather am in Belgium with a median net wealth of 250k USD than anywhere else on the planet. Since going to a "wealthier country" such as USA or Switzerland, the middle class would become poorer. As they'd have around 107k USD net wealth.
Why are Reddit Commies always too intellectually lazy to do anything else but offer [low-effor copypasta](https://www.etui.org/news/minimum-wages-directive-history-making#:~:text=The%20directive%E2%80%99s-,objectives,-to%20ensure%20adequate)?
Anyway, the most [well-off Western European countries tend not to have a minimum wage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_minimum_wage).
So says the far right extremists libertarians bros with their free of consequences market crap....and hiding behind halfassed semantics:
Just like claiming that your kult is capitalism...when it’s actually feudalism.....
And you probably thinkyou are ‘smarter ‘ by just adding links....which actually makes you the lazy one...😂
> So says the far right extremists libertarians bros with their free of consequences market crap....and hiding behind halfassed semantics:
> Just like claiming that your kult is capitalism...when it’s actually feudalism.....
> And you probably thinkyou are ‘smarter ‘ by just adding links....which actually makes you the lazy one...😂
You expect me to give a full argument in response to your low-effort copypasta? Not only are you intellectually lazy, but you also appear to be a complete tard!
Not a single thing said by OP is communist. And Sweden doesn't need a minimum wage because 70% of the Swedish work force are members of a trade union and are protected by labor contracts made by sectoral collective bargaining. Elon Musk is currently getting his ego crushed unions for his arrogance in trying to ignore Nordic labor norms and act like an American style robber baron
>Not a single thing said by OP is communist. And Sweden doesn't need a minimum wage because 70% of the Swedish work force are members of a trade union and are protected by labor contracts made by sectoral collective bargaining.
Weird how joining a trade union or signing a CBA in Sweden is a voluntary action for both employees and employers. The law doesn't require the employers to engage with a trade union nor does it require employees to join one. So there is no legal minimum wage and no legal requirement to engage with unions. You're really out there proving my point! :)
>Elon Musk is currently getting his ego crushed unions for his arrogance in trying to ignore Nordic labor norms and act like an American style robber baron
[December 21, 2023](https://apnews.com/article/tesla-strike-union-sweden-labor-dispute-5124a0074f6b4c5b7f503b5353afe8b3#:~:text=About%20130%20mechanics%20at%2010%20Tesla%20garages%20across%20Sweden%20walked%20off%20the%20job%20on%20Oct.%2027%20over%20the%20company%E2%80%99s%20refusal%20to%20sign%20a%20collective%20bargaining%20agreement): "*About 130 mechanics at 10 Tesla garages across Sweden walked off the job on Oct. 27 over the company’s* ***refusal to sign a collective bargaining agreement.***"
[April 11, 2024](https://www.businessinsider.com/swedish-tesla-workers-elon-musk-strikes-ongoing-evs-2024-4?op=1) Elon Musk is still getting his "ego crushed" by **not signing** a collective bargaining agreement.
[April 30, 2024](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-sweden-strikes-if-metall-repairs/) Elon Musk is still getting his "ego crushed" by **still not signing** a CBA and the strikes are now letting off.
I have to say... this has been an absolute blow to Elon Musk's ego!
Before participating, consider taking a glance at [our rules page](/r/CapitalismvSocialism/wiki/rules) if you haven't before. We don't allow **violent or dehumanizing rhetoric**. The subreddit is for discussing what ideas are best for society, not for telling the other side you think you could beat them in a fight. That doesn't do anything to forward a productive dialogue. Please report comments that violent our rules, but don't report people just for disagreeing with you or for being wrong about stuff. Tired of arguing on reddit? Consider [joining us on Discord.](http://discord.com/invite/politicscafe) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CapitalismVSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Based.
Vooruit wants to increase minimum wages to 2500 euros in Belgium. In Luxembourg the minimum wage is already above 2500 euros. If nearby countries collectively do this then it will be good.
I like how vooruit has rebrand itself. But TBH, I've traditionally seen that party as two-faced. On one hand, they show up in BXL and sing a song of peace, love, european cooperation, communities cooperation, and welfare state. Meanwhile, on the other, they drive 20 km out to the BHV and then complain about expats and "verfransing". As if they were not just trying to woo expat voters literally 30 minutes earlier. And what cooperation have they actually achieved at either the federal level or the European level in the past 15 years?
Where would someone find information of what political parties have achieved the last 5 years? I just know that vooruit has strived for higher minimum pensions and higher spending at healthcare. That they already worked toward a higher minimum wage. The minimum wage in Belgium is a lot higher than in France for example. I've read on kies24 and other such articles the view points of all the political parties and vooruit aligns most with my own views. You say vooruit is against expats, I'm curious about that
Where did you see that? 2500 euros is absolute lunacy for a minimum wage. It's basically the wage of an engineer in Belgium. That would bring massive unemployment in every sector.
"The average engineer in our country earns 4,345 euros gross. This means that an average engineer earns about 13% more than the average employee, who can count on 3,881 euros gross monthly." Vooruit wants to increase minimum wage to 2500 euros https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20240430_95761619#:~:text=In%20Google%20Play-,Vooruit%20wil%20minimumlonen%20verhogen%20naar%202.500%20euro%20per%20maand%3A%20%E2%80%9CZo,de%20vooravond%20van%201%20mei.
>3,881 euros gross monthly 3881 gross = 2500 net Do they mean 2500 euro gross? That would still be a lot of money. Around 2000€ net.
2500 euros gross wage which means 3600 euros labour cost per month in Belgium.
Abolish the wealthy parasite class
Which is the champagne socialists
How exactly are these “parasites” hurting you? Most wealth is built through improving society in some way.
When most wealth creation (fueled by the working majority) is allocated on a tiny minority's hands and hidden off on tax havens this doesn't do anything for society. You don't care about a functioning society though. You have no real solutions to poverty or homelessness and bootlick the parasite class
Actually, in an affluent liberal democracy, most taxes are paid by upper income people, and a fair chunk if it is redistributed to lower income people.
That upper income class is far too small to hold that burden.
You couldn't be more wrong. [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-pays-the-most-taxes-experts-explain-2023-deadline/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-pays-the-most-taxes-experts-explain-2023-deadline/) The highest-earning Americans pay the most in combined federal, state and local taxes, the Tax Foundation noted. As a group, the top quintile — those earning $130,001 or more annually — paid $3.23 trillion in taxes, compared with $142 billion for the bottom quintile, or those earning less than $25,000.
Worst article ever seen, more ads than words. Also is sales tax not a thing?
>Worst article ever seen, more ads than words. Do you disagree with its conclusion? >Also is sales tax not a thing? So are GST/HST rebates for lower income people.
Also paying taxes have nothing to do with who creates the most wealth, 🤣 Our economy runs off the backs of the working poor
Shifting the goalposts.
No you went off topic I'm bringing it back
I was **directly** addressing and rebutting the remarks **you** made. If you open the door, don't get all bitchy because I walk through it.
>Most wealth is built through improving society in some way. Price gouging, exploitation, wage theft, private equity, climate change, starvation and food waste, market manipulation, corruption, corporate lobbying, financial speculation, subjectivity of the statement "improving society", etc. These account for tens of trillions or more in wealth. Have you considered the possibility that maybe you're wrong?
>abolishing the ruling class FTFY
Which is the wealthy capitalist class. Glad I could help.
Which is the ruling class, the ones who actually write laws and has enforcer goons. I know you socialists love your state, but let's be clear, it is akin to a mafia
>it is akin to a mafia Worse. The mafia doesn't pretend that robbing you is for your own good.
Spot on
Agree abolish parasites
I also subscribe to the SE newsletter. What I would point out is that, 1. Its not that opinions have changed much about that in Europe over the past few decades. 2. Its actually a political fault line. Some see a problem. Others see a solution. Been that way since the 19th century
In this specific situation they are providing a clear formula of determining minimum wage... Not a political stance but a mathematical definition....
what is most important about Europe is that it lives in about 60% of America's per capita GDP. It is too socialistic. They would live at 30% of our GDP if not for our inventions. Silicon Valley is in the United States it is not in Europe.
Oh shush it Jefferson, you know very well that the local purchasing power in Europe never stagnated. It kept on track as if GDP never stagnated. It just allows the EU to be an export area of 8,75% more export than import while the USA is doomed to be indebted to the world with a staggering import of 33% more than export. This because you're too expensive to buy from. The quality isn't worth the price tag. Only silicon valley is doing some good to the world. So that the world can finally use these dollars for a change. If you refuse to learn then you just spout nonsense. Maybe just leave your country for once
please don't be stupid. If England were a state in the United States it would be about equal to Mississippi our poorest state in terms of per capita income.
JEFFERSON! I'm going to spank you
Translation: as a typical lefty I am too stupid to say anything substantive.
JEFFERSON, you have to pay the troll toll to get this boy's soul
Translation: I am a typical lefty far too stupid to say anything substantive.
The optimal minimum wage to help poor people overall the most is not nessicarily a living wage. This is because minimum wadge increases do two things: they increase the average wadge of poor people with jobs, and lower the number of jobs available to poor people because it no longer becomes profitable to employ them. If the number of people who loose their jobs or cant find a job the would have been able to with a lower minimum wage is high enough compared to the minimum wage increase, then it has literally made the poor worse off. If you want to help the poor, give them welfare directly, as that literally makes their lives better. Don't use minimum wage, its literally a indirect tax on the poor that sometimes helps them and sometimes hurts them. Thus I am against the minimum wage being bery high. Additionally in the US <1% of workers are paid minimum wadge.
Being unemployed makes them live on living wage or unemployment benefits. Education is free. So what this does is take the least productive labourers out of the economy and put their time to better use in order to increase their human capital and then through usage of a trampoline effect put them back into the economy at a higher production rate.
End minimum wage - and stop giving handouts to those who won’t work or strive to be successful.
I don't think I will.
Don’t worry the backlash to correct conservatism is coming. Welfare is a blight on mankind like communism was
The nordic model is one of the most successful models on earth by several measurements including quality of life, happiness, equality, quality education, and healthcare outcomes. Neoliberalism does not match up.
Norway - country that pays for everything via oil and all those Nordic countries and now suffering because of unchecked immigration from places that don’t have morals or a work Ethic.
Norway doesn't pay for everything via oil and gas. They're diversifying so that they will be less reliant on them, and they have a huge wealth fund that will give them all the breathing room they need to do so. Nordic countries are some of the best countries on earth to live which makes people want to emigrate to them. They're doing fine.
Yes look at sweeen and the massive increase in crime. No one should ever divest from fossil fuels - if Norway accomplishes that they will be bankrupt in 10 years. Fossil fuels and nuclear only.
Both make society poorer.
Debatable. Having someone flip burgers while unable to escape poverty would be quite dramatically worse for society than having higher social mobility through allowing that person to live on benefits while educating himself and being catapulted to a position where he can be a lot more productive than just flipping burgers.
If it were that clearly beneficial, a company would be more than willing to pay for their education rather than them needing to live off of benefits. It would be worse for society if the cost of providing them that education is greater than the productivity gain, which is very possible if not likely.
Why would the flipping burger company pay for the education to lose an employee and having to pay more for the next employee on top of that since the supply of low wage employees decreased. Doesn't make any sense now does it
They wouldn’t. A welding company, for example, would pay for them to learn to become a welder. Look up corporate scholarships, or the whole concept of apprenticeship. It’s all generally the same idea, companies are more than willing to train their workforce and invest in human capital if it means a more productive workforce (and thus more profit) for them. There’s also the possibility of student loans, it the worker in question wanted more flexibility with what they study and are confident they can pay the debt.
In Europe we have free education. Why? Well, our healthcare is cheap. 8% of GDP goes to healthcare. Like 5% goes to education. In USA 16% goes to healthcare and 6% to education. 13% Vs 22%. So our education is completely and utterly free. Even more than free, we get paid to be educated. Whoopsiedaisy. No, welder companies don't pay for your education, people jobhop every 2 years because their companies don't even give them enough of a raise. They'd pay for their slaves their education though. Assets 😳 You think people are rational. Far from it. Transparency of information is not there so your economics book goes straight out of the window. Benefits and tax paid education is the way to go.
Right, as evidenced by the fact that the middle class was strongest historically when those two things were in place
Those are non contradictory statements. The middle class is very strong if the middle 80% earn 10k per year, the bottom earns 2k, and the top 20k. When the middle earns 12k, the bottom 10k, and the top 100k the middle class is far weaker. But the second one is far better off society.
First one is a middle class that have property rights while the latter is a society where only the upper class have property rights. Because of the increase of money into the system in the latter one, it will also cause a lot of inflation. So the first one is the better society for the middle class and the latter is the better society for the upper class. Also you don't have to choose between either. There are wealthy countries that have a lot of inequality, there are wealthy countries with little inequality. Poor variants of both exist as well. It's silly. I rather am in Belgium with a median net wealth of 250k USD than anywhere else on the planet. Since going to a "wealthier country" such as USA or Switzerland, the middle class would become poorer. As they'd have around 107k USD net wealth.
Why are Reddit Commies always too intellectually lazy to do anything else but offer [low-effor copypasta](https://www.etui.org/news/minimum-wages-directive-history-making#:~:text=The%20directive%E2%80%99s-,objectives,-to%20ensure%20adequate)? Anyway, the most [well-off Western European countries tend not to have a minimum wage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_minimum_wage).
So says the far right extremists libertarians bros with their free of consequences market crap....and hiding behind halfassed semantics: Just like claiming that your kult is capitalism...when it’s actually feudalism..... And you probably thinkyou are ‘smarter ‘ by just adding links....which actually makes you the lazy one...😂
> So says the far right extremists libertarians bros with their free of consequences market crap....and hiding behind halfassed semantics: > Just like claiming that your kult is capitalism...when it’s actually feudalism..... > And you probably thinkyou are ‘smarter ‘ by just adding links....which actually makes you the lazy one...😂 You expect me to give a full argument in response to your low-effort copypasta? Not only are you intellectually lazy, but you also appear to be a complete tard!
Oh...no...no...just add a link...😉......that’ll do it...😂
Me: posts a comment with a link. You: where link? Me: you tarded? You: Oh...no...no...just add a link...😉......that’ll do it...😂 Me: OK, it's tarded!
Not a single thing said by OP is communist. And Sweden doesn't need a minimum wage because 70% of the Swedish work force are members of a trade union and are protected by labor contracts made by sectoral collective bargaining. Elon Musk is currently getting his ego crushed unions for his arrogance in trying to ignore Nordic labor norms and act like an American style robber baron
>Not a single thing said by OP is communist. And Sweden doesn't need a minimum wage because 70% of the Swedish work force are members of a trade union and are protected by labor contracts made by sectoral collective bargaining. Weird how joining a trade union or signing a CBA in Sweden is a voluntary action for both employees and employers. The law doesn't require the employers to engage with a trade union nor does it require employees to join one. So there is no legal minimum wage and no legal requirement to engage with unions. You're really out there proving my point! :) >Elon Musk is currently getting his ego crushed unions for his arrogance in trying to ignore Nordic labor norms and act like an American style robber baron [December 21, 2023](https://apnews.com/article/tesla-strike-union-sweden-labor-dispute-5124a0074f6b4c5b7f503b5353afe8b3#:~:text=About%20130%20mechanics%20at%2010%20Tesla%20garages%20across%20Sweden%20walked%20off%20the%20job%20on%20Oct.%2027%20over%20the%20company%E2%80%99s%20refusal%20to%20sign%20a%20collective%20bargaining%20agreement): "*About 130 mechanics at 10 Tesla garages across Sweden walked off the job on Oct. 27 over the company’s* ***refusal to sign a collective bargaining agreement.***" [April 11, 2024](https://www.businessinsider.com/swedish-tesla-workers-elon-musk-strikes-ongoing-evs-2024-4?op=1) Elon Musk is still getting his "ego crushed" by **not signing** a collective bargaining agreement. [April 30, 2024](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-sweden-strikes-if-metall-repairs/) Elon Musk is still getting his "ego crushed" by **still not signing** a CBA and the strikes are now letting off. I have to say... this has been an absolute blow to Elon Musk's ego!