Took my subbie wagon in for a service and they gave me a new outback as a loaner, the thing drove and felt like a boat. Crazy how much sway it had. I miss the older pre 2008 outbacks. The old 06 h6 I had was an absolute beauty, handled very well, not like these new outbacks.
yeah fabulous car... i've been sailing that this for a year and bit now. Even though it rocked 6 ways coming to a stop at the dealership, i'm now fully committed to the ocean life...
It's on eco for engine and comfort for suspension 90% of the time.
The amount of CBF i have now for crazy sydney traffic is amazing. Just sit there and let it all flow around you.
I just replaced my '06 outback 2 years ago with a Volvo V60 AWD wagon - one of around 10 in the country.
It was so difficult finding a wagon, actually, most dealers had rows of SUVs....
Road deaths per capita have remained fairly constant over the last few years. The only real change in the last decade was a sharp drop in deaths per capita because of covid lockdowns and WFH, and it still hasn't gone back up to pre-covid levels.
It would seem the simplest explanation for an increase in the absolute number of road deaths is an increase in population.
You aren’t taking a common sense approach are you?
Yep - sticks out as most likely, but it will still make our roads authorities have a panic attack and find a reason to exert a little more control over us.
I would love for the roads authorities to exert significantly more control over the privilege of driving. I think its mind blowing we let people drive cars without having to prove they can do it annually.
Yes that's right everyone should have to prove they know the road rules and can drive by them yearly.
Amen to this, there are older people on the roads who haven’t taken their drivers test in over 50 years, WTF. Yearly or bi-yearly tests are a must and get rid of the revenue cameras and put actual police on the roads ffs
I got my licence 50 odd years ago. Road rules have changed substantially. Recently had to get a light rigid licence and discovered all sorts of rules I didn't know! So yes I'd agree BUT it's not just older drivers... A short debate on the NSW rules for the speed limit when passing a Police or Ambulance vehicle with flashing lights at the roadside might be an education. They made it 40kph limit then changed it for multilane roads... Or did they? Clearly most drivers on the road don't know. What are the rules for that in other states?
Regular updates on road rules and regular recertification makes absolute sense.
I think them remaining flat despite the addition of mobile phones and digital displays and interactive consoles into cars is the achievement of the safety features.
Cars have gotten more distracting and less responsive to steering but have gotten safer and better at predicting these things for us so in the end it balances out.
It's also worth remembering that when a population increases the number of potential interactions grows exponentially.
E.g if 3 cars are driving along a road and 3 cars are coming the other way there are 9 potential head on collisions, if we double it to 6 cars each way the potential collisions increase to 36.. a 100% increase in cars meant the number of potential crashes increased 300%
It's an interesting argument with some points that can be argued on either side.
Against SUV's:
1) As you point out, there is no escaping the laws of physics. Chassis and suspension engineers are clever people, and (most) SUV's have come a long way, but no one can beat mother nature.
2) People in more "regular" size or height vehicles find it tougher to see around them. This same point also applies against any large vehicle, not just SUV's.
In favour of SUV's:
1) *Because* so many people drive larger vehicles these days, many people say "fuck it" and also buy a larger/taller car. If you can't beat them, join them line of vibe.
2) Being higher off the ground can give you a better field of view, assuming your windows aren't tiny and pillars aren't overly chunky.
I am firmly in the "fuck SUV" camp and have told my missus my next car will either be another sedan, or preferably a nice station wagon for all the reasons you just listed. I grew up racing karts and being low to the ground feels natural to me, and I also want a car with handling and grip that I can trust if/when I need it to without hesitation or doubt.
But she is firmly in the "I like SUV" camp because she feels safer with the added field of view and is sick of not being able to see around almost any new car on the road in our old Astra or my lowered Bora.
People will argue on this from both sides until the end of time..
Are there even nice station wagons around anymore? That aren’t euro like Audis Renaults Saabs Volvos BMW’s etc.
I think the market shifted to the SUV because the wagon options dried up.
Subaru still do good wagons. You do have to take up vaping though, and it's in the contract that you have to tell everyone you meet about your Subaru so it's a big lifestyle change.
Now I’m in the “fuck SUV’s” camp, but in my area (rural NSW) they are better on these roads as they are shit so having ground clearance and larger wheels do help, they also hold up better against wildlife as they tend to go under the car rather than over.
This is why we have the dual cab as the family car
Just remember she is probably right for her driving style and you are probably right for your driving style.
She's probably a safe driver and won't need the centre of gravity / quick steer required for ex-hoons who love booting it around corners in their smaller cars :P
Instead she can rely on her big car to turn across lanes and merge safely due to its excellent field of view.
Just saying...
The other pro to a suv is that they are easier to get on and out of that something lower on the ground - important for an aging population.
A real unmet need is actual wagons (with all their boot space), or even ‘small’ cars that are just easier for people to get in and out of..
I can’t stand the mentality (not saying this is yours) of ‘being higher off the ground lets me see better’.
If you actively look ahead or put your car in a better lane or position (pass the van or truck in front of you) you’ll be able to see ahead.
can confirm the feeling safer in an SUV/bigger car.
I rented a carnival over the weekend.
When I am merging due to my lane ending, cars on the right side (they have right of way) 99% of the time slows down / flashes their headlight to let me in.
When I am driving my small hatch, cars on the right would almost always cut me off and impose their right of way.
> 2. People in more "regular" size or height vehicles find it tougher to see around them. This same point also applies against any large vehicle, not just SUV's.
This has made left turns a painful endeavour when someone wants to turn right. Doesn’t help that SUV owners almost always pull all the way forward with no consideration that it completely blocks your vision.
Another positive is you can entry and exit driveways without slamming the bumper into the road. Crawling or going on some weird angle isn’t fun.
I used to own a sedan that would scrape it’s belly going into my driveway unless I was on a weird angle
Ideally, everyone should have small light cars. But a collision with a dual cab ute isn't going to end well for the smaller car.
I'm not implying everyone should buy large cars.
Regulations should change. If I'm driving a 2.5T ute, towing a 3T trailer on a licence, I got learning to drive a 1t Suzuki Swift, that makes no sense.
So they get a car that's bigger than a dual cab ute, then the ute driver gets a yank tank and so on and so on
You see the problem with this right? SUVs are the result of marketing genius by telling people they'll be safer in a bigger car when in a traffic accident.
Smaller cars are just as safe as larger ones and as OP suggests, more nimble and easier to bring to a stop.
Smaller cars are roughly as safe *in a single-vehicle crash*. When you're in a Swift and you get hit head-on by a Ranger, the Ranger driver will experience lower crash forces. I like small cars, and drive them, but it's an arms race where size wins.
I would be very happy if you had to get a commercial licence to drive anything classed as a commerical vehicle for emissions purposes (which is why SUVs exist in the first place). The inflation of vehicles frustrates me no end, even though I understand the reasons people buy bigger vehicles.
True, mass is the determinant of the acceleration experienced by the vehicles (size is a decent predictor of mass, but not a perfect correlate). With people movers and particularly with vans, the relatively poor crash structures also make a big difference to occupant outcomes in an impact.
How? The best selling "SUV" is the Toyota RAV4, it's lighter, shorter and safer than the Commodore station wagons that were the family car of choice 20 years ago.
I'd argue it's less the fault of vehicles and more the fault of people being worse drivers now because of all the aides and safety features provided in modern cars. People become complacent and lazy and pay far less attention to the road.
SUVs have their place and not every corner or bend needs to be taken at full speed.
yeah, my dad basically needs lane keep assist these days. it’s genuinely concerning driving with him, feeling the car jerk to the side while an alarm chime plays
we nearly all hate our parents driving, i made the mistake of letting my mother drive for 5hrs on a long trip, omg the stress was insane, she never drives if im in the car anymore, i'm like "ok gimme the keys!"
Yeah the Audi Q3 Pre Sense is too sensitive for my liking, was going for a rolling stop when the car from the side road inched out, nowhere near to being in range for a collision and that Pre Sense just fucking ebraked and almost caused me to get rear ended.
I agree with you both. It’s all at play.
This discussion reminds me of a post I saw where someone was praising their decision to buy an suv because they had their baby in the car when they crashed into a Corolla saying that it’s the reason why they weren’t seriously injured. All I could think of was the poor Corolla that got steam rolled by a vehicle twice its size but I’m not even sure the SUV driver thought of that.
Remember when someone posts about a crash that they had - it’s always the other drivers fault, so in reddit parlance - fuck around and find out.
It’s also a vision arms race - more and more you need an SUV to have a hope of seeing past the car turning right and a better chance that an SUV won’t see you when they shoulder check
As someone who owns a modern SUV, I agree to the complacency, but also wanna point out the "safety systems" can also be a huge liability. If I crash, there is a not 0% chance it'll be because the car reacted in a way I didnt expect to a situation and made the problem worse.
I'm not saying all safety systems are bad. On the contrary! the driver attention thing is pretty useful on long drives by yourself. But that lane assist thing is a piece of fucking garbage that I'm pretty certain is gonna crash us should i forget to disarm it one day.
They vary in quality though. My BMW is perfectly tuned - it warns or intervenes when it needs to, but never overreacts. My Mazda only tells me if I’ve already left the lane, and it is very inconsistent.
I drove a Kia and it was all over the place, beeping at me and pogo-ing from one side of the lane to the next
Don’t forget to include shitty driving skills in your analysis.
It’s scary the amount of times I’ve seen movies playing on other drivers mobile phones on those dashboard/AC vent mounts. Some people are so addicted to their phones they can’t even hold off staring at them while driving.
When I worked in fast food I saw this in drive-thrus all the time. Sure, it might be a little safer to watch a film in a drive-thru than on the road, but don't expect me to believe they aren't also doing it on the road.
The scariest ones would keep their phones in their laps rather than on mounts.
Why are road deaths decreasing in most other developed countries with the same distractions as Australian drivers have. Australia has a similar vehicle market to the US (albeit our SUVs and Pick-ups are smaller) and the US is also experiencing a higher road toll than in recent years. Ultimately driving bigger and heavier vehicles is most likely the causative factor and we are heading in the wrong direction.
It's not like Europe isn't embracing crossovers - there's a reason why even the Euro manufacturers are discontinuing wagons and releasing more crossovers to the market.
The biggest irony of this entire thread is that the OP's flair indicates they drive a Polestar 2. Which is a Volvo XC40 Recharge with a vaguely sedan shaped body.
But socials and their notifications are binging newer drivers, often addicted to their apps. Personally, I gave up riding motorcycles because it’s just so bad now. And I love motorcycles
More people getting cars with LKA, so they are driving up country roads fully engrossed in the latest tik tok so they can talk about it when they get to footy training.
I agree that sedans/wagons are better handling than SUVs overall. But….My other comment on this comes from that time around 1996 when my Subaru RS Turbo wagon was on a lift at my mechanic. Next it on a lift was a near new VS commodore with its wheels off. I was shocked at how puny the commodore brakes were and how primitive the suspension design was. I wouldn’t say it would be safer than a new RAV4. I know how tail happy those things were in the wet.
Yes, but bigger disks and more pistons means more resistance to brake fade when used hard repeatedly. Not relevant to normal driving. If the ABS kicks in, the brakes are adequate.
RS Turbo is a performance car.
Independent suspension will also be superior in handling.The RAV4 would be safer with all the drivers aids and crash safety than the VS, though Apples for apples, lower centre of gravity handles better than higher.
The brakes on anything non-HSV (or brembo on certain SS’s) are absolutely pathetic on every commodore. As other commenter said, it’s mostly brake fade but the stopping power for the size of the car was well behind its contemporary’s.
I drive an AU1, its brakes are woeful if I use them hard on the twisties, they're perfectly fine and the ABS activating at any speed. So many people get confused over pedal feel and twin pistons/drilled/slotted disks being better/making the car stop faster when it's good tyres and maintenance of brakes and suspension.
Too many bros with cut springs, Chinese tyres on 20-inch fake yeah buds, with slotted rotors thinking they're stopping quicker.
More people than ever = more traffic = more accidents = more fatal accidents.
Not rocket science.
If the population falls or remains stable yet accidents/fatalities then still go up that's when it's time to start exploring outside of the blatantly obvious for why.
One thing that gives me the shits is,
If People buy SUVs for the higher driving position and better visibility,then why do nearly all drivers set their seat height so low they can barely see over the steering wheel?
Sure overall they're slightly higher off if the ground, but due to the low seat height there is no way they can see the front of the bonnet, giving them worse visibility overall.
You haven’t seen me drive an SUV.
I’m short so highest setting on the seat and everyone asks “why are you so high?”
And then when I drive my car during the week (a sedan) I feel very low. However, I can’t justify the cost of an SUV (it’s not mine but on occasion I do get to drive it) or any other car really (sh*t prices) and people already criticise me for owning a Camry (why do I need such a big car?) when they drive a 7 seater for 1 child.
It is what it is. I have a car, I’m lucky to have one. End of.
Because they’ll make any excuse to justify their “need” to keep up and maintain their place within the social strata they feel they have to be a part of.
So...there is allegedly a mystery about why the death toll is rising. What is the cause? Well, the Federal Gov apparently wants the states to be more transparent and share a uniform data set about fatalities.
This will (hopefully) solve the mystery. OP days he knows the answer...and it is SUVs.
I dunno...surely there aren't over 30% more SUVs on the road in NSW this year compared to last? So why would 30% more of them be crashing now?
I also think the data set might be more about blood alcohol, age, years driving, speed etc than make and model.of car.
I truly believe that driving a small hatch has made me a better driver. No choice in the matter, I have to be a better driver or I won’t survive with all these monster trucks driving around. Almost everything is bigger than me and I’ll be crushed under them if I’m not concentrating and driving defensively at all times!
I used to ride, gave up years ago as there are just too many fuckwit drivers in Sydney and that was before the monster truck infestation! I used to drive trucks too. I think that helped me become a better driver as I now understand the handling characteristics of every vehicle on the road.
Even a small hatch isn’t that cheap to run anymore when piled on top of all the other cost of existing expenses. I shudder to think how much those big vehicles cost to run!
EV's weigh more than ICE passenger cars. Men are drivers in more fatal accidents than women. Rear enders kill more than any other type of accident. Therefore we can conclude that males into rear ends, who drive fancy EVs are the biggest danger on the road today!
I’ll be keeping my Outback. I don’t care what everyone else thinks it is, it’s a raised station wagon. Drives and handles like a car. On the registration papers it’s a Panel Van, on the marketing brochure it’s an SUV.
Ironically, it’s currently getting assessed for a write off after a Rav4 ran up the back of me at traffic lights. Rav4 didn’t brake. Outback took full impact and I walked away with just a small bruise on my upper arm. Will be getting another one for sure.
This is a good car. Not at all what I mean by an SUV. Outback’s, cross country, all road, whatever you call them are a great balance of ground clearance and handling without the major compromises of an egg on wheels.
Most SUVs aren't that big. Smaller than the commodores and falcons of the last 30 years. You have good visibility and they are easier to get in and out of. I think OP is mad because his tiny car is all that he could afford.
The real issue i see is inattentive and/or impatient driving, and since COVID both are far more prevalent than pre-COVID in my observation, it’s like 70% of people forgot how to drive.
Just watch any Dashcams Australia video and most would be avoidable issues if all drivers were actually paying attention and had some patience.
I can't travel off grid for a few weeks at a time in a hatchback, so I have a large 4wd vehicle. I can't afford 3 cars (wife drives a hatch) so I drive it all the time. Will you pay for my 3rd car so I can leave my 4x4 in the garage? Didn't think so.
I get to drive a whole range of vehicles through my job.
Newer vehicles have so many damn distractions! Sensors, cameras, automatic headlights/wipers, lane assist… I get into a new car these days and often feel like I’m about to take off in the starship enterprise. Just trying to fight with the menus to turn half the crap off is a challenge.
Speed limits are whack too. It seems like everyone is terrified of going even NEAR the limit which causes people around them to get frustrated and start to take risks to get around them and away from them.
I think cars are way too complicated these days, have far too many distractions and that the quality of our driver education is severely lacking.
Edit: you’ve also got people that have zero spacial awareness or understanding of how their vehicle turns who are driving around in these giant SUVs reversing into bollards and destroying their rims on carpark kerbs.
Worth mentioning that these fucking oversized cunt mobiles also alter perceptions of the driver into them thinking they are invincible. I’m shocked if I don’t see a Ford Ranger tailgating at 110kmh while raining.
>I can categorically say that the VS commodore of the 90s handles better than a modern RAV4, Prado, landcruiser 200, Honda CRV, Ranger Ute etc.
I can't believe I made it though that much written diarrhea before reading the most stupid thing I've ever seen in my life.
Get a grip bro, lay off the crack pipe.
I don't know what SUV you're driving but they're mostly really low profile tyres and have great performance.
The stats show most preventable accidents are caused by ice smoking lunatics driving busted up commodores.
OP is fucking insane he thinks 20 year old cars handle better. People only remember what they want to believe. It's like when old people talk about the performance of their muscle cars when in reality the old XD 351 wouldn't blow smoke up a SV6's ass.
IMO people on reddit have a really hard time with the idea that our country is the size of the USA with 5 major cities and a whole lot of nothing. People like to drive big cars that are comfortable, capable offroad and nice to driver over bad roads. As much as the echo chamber has people thinking everyone hates 4x4s, SUVs and American trucks. Irl people compliment them and like them.
I dunno if you look over the decades it’s significantly gone down with the occasional rise , add to it the mass amount of ppl were importing with the “good luck everybody, I turn now” driving style it doesn’t seem crazy alarming
I think it’s part of it.
It’s also changing demographics. Introduction of Uber. Too many “safety systems” that people take for granted but then become complacent. Etc.
People are worse at driving before Covid and more of them are driving rather than use public transport. We have also had a massive population increase where most of those are from countries with incredibly poor driving and often it’s years before they get an Oz license here.
I am ashamed to be driving a (smallish) suv cos i just couldn’t handle the migraines i got from being eye level with all the arsehole lazer headlights. That is the main reason. I don’t like suv’s. And it doesn’t even carry what my old jazz could. Its slow, chews more gas, ugly, has appallingly bad visibility, and is just shit in every way - except i don’t have the migraines. I wish there was some taller car that wasn’t an suv. I would have gone for a van, but the covid tax blew them into another universe.
I regularly attend auctions, specifically damaged vehicles auctions. So i see the vehicles that are written off or are repairable write-offs. And they aren't the 4wds and big utes.
The majority are 15 to 25 year old sedans. Probably half would be commodores, falcons and camrys.
Bruh, make international licenses harder to get
So many people coming from countries with minimal road rules, where it's consistently bumper to bumper traffic, and they pay $40 to become fully qualified
Nah that's fucked up. They should have to do do their entire leaners because aus roads, aus rules, and 110km roads are an entirely different ball game
ALSO
Licenses should be much harder to get. People feel like it's an entitlement when it's actually a privilege.
Not to mention cars are probably one of the biggest emission contributions that we all sweep under the rug. It's a fucking joke
To be fair a 35 year old car/ Ute agents a new car. New car wins by a mile. Now compare a 35 yr old 4WD ( short based cruiser/ Pajero) and there is massive improvement. The issue is the number of ‘commercial’ vehicles in the total fleet is way up ( tax incentives by governments driving sales and salary packages) these vehicles are exempt from many ADR and perform terribly in crash test ( new Jeep = 1 star!!! )
It is also critical that we know IF these vehicles are over represented in crash data.
Watch Dash Cams Australia for a while and you'll notice almost all the rollovers are SUVs. Even tiny bingles with a small SUV have them flipping on their lids. It's a crying shame.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dangers-of-muscle-cars
American analysis of deaths per vehicle type. The safest vehicles for occupants section is dominated by SUVs and they are also well represented in the lower death to other party section.
Studies like this would be skewed by demographic to a degree
Also interesting to see kia rio and forte feature in the high deaths to others section given their size... Could be that theyre baught by bad drivers that frequently cause high speed accidents
I've driven A LOT of cars, and SUVs are the worst.
The only two reasons I can think of getting a 5-seater SUV is because it makes loading a baby into their seat, easier. I mean, you can store more stuff in it I guess, but so can wagons.
Apart from that, I just see a vehicle that's too heavy (poor handling & braking distance), and too high (even poorer handling & more susceptible to flipping in an accident), which IMO means being more susceptible to accidents.
The argument for a "better FOV" is true I guess, but I don't feel any tangible benefit from it. You can still see the car in-front and flow of traffic in a non-SUV, too.
The other reason is - if you can't beat them, join them:
[https://drivinginsights.com.au/novated-leasing/are-bigger-cars-making-us-less-safe/](https://drivinginsights.com.au/novated-leasing/are-bigger-cars-making-us-less-safe/)
Basically, if you get into an accident with an SUV (as a pedestrian or smaller car) it's gg.
IMO, that's a different class of vehicle - you either need to tow more or carry more people. I get that. They have a proper use case.
(I know they're classed as "full-size SUVs", but they were called 4WDs or People Movers before being labelled SUVs).
I guess my comments are towards small/mid sized SUVs, hence the '5 seater'.
Most of the SUVs and big fucking vehicles is only 1 person in it as well.
I hate these fucking cars.
The drivers always ignorant and park their vehicles in small car parks.
Sorry but SUVs are just too convenient for families and just in general. Higher clearance means less chance of scraping speed humps, driveways etc. easier to see over obstacles, easier to get in and out of, easier to load and unload, generally more usable boot space especially compared to sedans…
SUVs are here to stay so best get used to it.
I think you're entirely right about the physics of it all.
Data shows that larger the cars on the road = more severe the damage to all those involved when an accident does occur.
Additionally those in smaller vehicles come off worse when in an accident with a larger vehicle.
This creates a problem because SUVs have become main stream 'fashionable' to own over the last decade.
The problem is this: As the % of vehicles on the road becomes more dominant by SUVs it increasingly becomes in my own interests to drive a large SUV to protect myself and my family.
However by buying into the SUV market I am now contributing to making every non SUV owner (including pedestrians and cyclists) lives more dangerous.
The impact on those F series ford monstrosities in the US is clear as day, bigger cars means more dead people.
The government needs to act. Restricting the ownership of large civilian vehicles through additional licensing and training.
Taxing large vehicles accordingly to their increased footprint, environmentally but also the footprint of the human damage tbey cause
Good on ya for bringing it up
Wouldn't that have more to do with the weight of the vehicle rather than the marketing terms used to describe them?
25 years ago the Commodore wagon was the car of choice for most families, these days it's the Toyota RAV4 and despite all the additional safety tech the RAV4 doesn't weight any more than the old Commodore.
Of course as usual this isn't about facts though, it's about people getting triggered by the term "SUV", which is why there's no evidence that today's top selling "SUV" is less safe than yesteryear's top selling wagon.
everyone needs a Honda Jazz!!! magic seats in the back that go flat, can fit 5 adults or a washing machine in it!
handle so well, the shell is 1 piece welded, not 2 front and back welded together.
7 airbags, 5 star rating.
the australia wide increase is nearly all NSW dominated (up 32%). Is it comparing to pandemic suppressed road traffic? sydney is bursting at the seams and so too is road traffic. More time and more frustration in the car and more people == more fatal accidents.
All of my driving starts as country driving.
I have a 4x4 as a camping/exploring vehicle and would only use it for that (it's a $4k Discovery) if it wasn't for its ability to hit roo's and be undamaged. I don't drive it all the time, but dawn/dusk and night it is the vehicle I'm taking.
Writing off my fun car (or any normal car) every 12-24 months is not a risk worth taking for me.
I am in a very niche position though, so most people don't need a SUV, and no one needs one that can't go offroad and doesnt have a ladder frame for a bullbar.
People movers, Minivans and Wagons etc. do a better job of daily urban duties vs. any SUV out there.
What if it’s a performance suv? Haha. I understand. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea. My partner has sworn to never get a suv again. He said as much of a performance an suv can get, it’s just not the same if it was in a smaller body and closer to the ground. I am a hatch person. Also on that note, We got the suv because we wanted to start a family of 4 and we only wanted 1 car at the time. We then realised we don’t need a bigger car for that. You live you learn. Everyone has different needs though.
BMW X5
Look no further
Lower centre of gravity, adjustable suspension, and performance up to ying yang.
I agree with OP, some of the new light plastic high ride bounce pieces of shit really are trash, but there are plenty of great SUV options out there. The Merc is also a good option.
I get they are a bit more expensive, but you are paying for ride quality
Fuck off. I love my SUV. You drive what you want and leave me alone.
I don't want to bottom out every damn bump i go over. Camry drivers are about the worst drivers on the road in my opinion. And whilst i don't mind driving with my kids? Their cars are low and not very comfy.
My Subaru & X Trail rule👍😀😉
I drove the work Kluger recently. Brand new car and it drove like an absolute boat compared to my GTI. Just sort of...floats and rolls about. You sit up higher, but the bonnet is also longer and more square at the front. I felt I had reduced visibility for anything directly in front of me, say, for example, a small child.
> High profile spongy tyres. Soft suspension. High centre of gravity.
This really isn't a problem for the 99% of people who aren't treating their drive to the local Westfield to pick up some eggs and milk as a special stage of Targa Tasmania.
You know what those things are good for? Roads with potholes the size of lunar craters, concrete expansion joints that are wider than the Grand Canyon, and speed humps on every block for "traffic calming".
I don't drive an SUV/crossover myself but I honestly don't understand the obsession that some people have with gatekeeping what other people drive. If someone wants to commute in an old Land Rover Defender, that's fine with me. If they want to do it in a Morgan 3-Wheeler, that's also fine with me.
Think you should start with the idiots driving these cars. Family mums, taking their kids to school make up a large proportion of SUVs on the road. I drive a 4wd utility because I know what it will do to an idiot's car should that idiot drive idiotically. But blaming the car and not the driver, is a bit lame. I think the majority of SUV drivers think their car will protect them and this affects their driving. All it takes is a crash and they get hurt badly, to change their ways. Natural selection takes care of most of these morons.
You clearly haven’t driven a Tesla Model Y. It has better handling than a corvette. Go drive one for a few months and see how hard it is to take it back.
My Kodiaq is the best car I’ve owned.
Drives well, heaps of room and comfy.
I also have a v6 Toyota blade and have owned sedans/performance hatches and people have a bit of a rose tinted view of these cars.
SUV’s don’t have to be in the shit handling group - plenty will out drive nearly every sports sedan out there and some will out drive their sports car brethren (the macan GTS has lapped faster than the 911 Carerra on Porsche tra k days )
It’s a choice by manufacturers and their target markets
I have the Mitsubishi ASX. It's a lot more versatile than my old VS Commodore.
For one, it's not as long, so it's easier to park.
It's higher, so it's easy to get the kids in/out, or change a nappy on the seats.
The boot bed is flat to the edge if you know what I mean. The Commodore had a "lip". That plus being higher means I can change a nappy in the boot very easily.
The seats folding completely down means I can transport quite large pieces of furniture in the car. Couldn't do that in the Commodore.
It's pretty small compared to a lot of SUVs. I think when people say SUV they think of outlanders and large almost 4wd-sized vehicles. The ASX is more like a big hatchback.
Or maybe just buy what you like? My BMW X5M is fantastic dynamically, works well on road and even on track. Not many cars that handle family duties, towing and fun. Extra clearance is great over a wagon.
I have an Audi sq5 and the same feels. Wickedly faster and better handling than any commodore I’ve had, and the fuel economy is on par with Corolla or Camry.
Are you ok?
I don't own an SUV.
But I'm pretty tolerant if other people have different tastes and make other choices.
There are lots of large vehicles on the road that are not SUVs.
It must be hard going through life with that amount of pent up rage.
I drive a small 4wd with a huge amount of body roll and a shit safety rating. Never have I even been close to crashing it because I’m a responsible driver. OP has so much anger towards a specific type of car. I suggest maybe take a look at the people driving the cars.
Don’t hold the hose on the smoke during a house fire, direct it at the flame.
>Notice how the road toll seems to be always linked to country driving?
That’s because our country roads aren’t really up to the task. If you’re comparing Aus to other developed countries in terms of road toll, our main highways and country roads are an absolute joke compared to overseas.
It’s incredibly simplistic to think banning SUVs would magically drop our road toll.
I’m currently mid-lap of Australia, and I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t be able to cross some of the roads (due to flooding), or access some of the sights I’ve managed to see, if I wasn’t in my lifted diesel 4x4.
A standard passenger car or wagon doesn’t have the GVM of my 4x4, and as such, I wouldn’t be able to load it up as much for camping/touring like I have. I’d be relying on motels/hotels, which limits where and when you can go to places.
I have a decent 12 volt system, powering two fridges, a Travel Buddy oven, a 2000w inverter, 2 solar panels on the roof, plus all our gear and a drawer system. I also have 2 awnings, on top of that, plus an extended long range fuel tank (223L total capacity). A regular car or wagon wouldn’t be able to handle this, nor could it handle outback roads (such as the 3hr stretch of corrugations out and back from Steep Point).
Saying SUV/4x4’s are the problem is a very city-centric viewpoint. Some outback towns don’t have roads suitable for a regular car.
The road toll problem isn’t the vehicles as much as it’s the complacent unskilled drivers.
AWD wagons all the way.
Just wagons all the way.
My 2002 outback goes hard on country roads.
Took my subbie wagon in for a service and they gave me a new outback as a loaner, the thing drove and felt like a boat. Crazy how much sway it had. I miss the older pre 2008 outbacks. The old 06 h6 I had was an absolute beauty, handled very well, not like these new outbacks.
Recently got a Skoda Superb, couldn't be happier. Fuck the SUV drones, this thing is more usable than a Kluger that I recently hired.
So you could say it's been... superb?
yeah fabulous car... i've been sailing that this for a year and bit now. Even though it rocked 6 ways coming to a stop at the dealership, i'm now fully committed to the ocean life... It's on eco for engine and comfort for suspension 90% of the time. The amount of CBF i have now for crazy sydney traffic is amazing. Just sit there and let it all flow around you.
Tried to convince my wife to buy a Superb over Everest. Didn't happen.
I'm waiting for an affordable EV equivalent to my gf alltrack but they just don't exist. Turbo AWD wagons are just *chefs kiss*
Have zero reason to move the Alltrack on either. AWD, turbo and a boot bigger than most medium sized SUVs it’s a real nugget of a wagon.
Audi RS6, my dream car.
Oof me too....my 07 outback with the zipties keeping the bumper together will have to do for now lol
Over $300,000:00 WTF
Even better if it has a turbo and a manual option.
I just replaced my '06 outback 2 years ago with a Volvo V60 AWD wagon - one of around 10 in the country. It was so difficult finding a wagon, actually, most dealers had rows of SUVs....
Yep, my Subaru XV has high ground clearance, low centre of gravity & can handle off road better than any SUV.
AWD wagons and hot hatches (and even warm hatches)!
Road deaths per capita have remained fairly constant over the last few years. The only real change in the last decade was a sharp drop in deaths per capita because of covid lockdowns and WFH, and it still hasn't gone back up to pre-covid levels. It would seem the simplest explanation for an increase in the absolute number of road deaths is an increase in population.
You aren’t taking a common sense approach are you? Yep - sticks out as most likely, but it will still make our roads authorities have a panic attack and find a reason to exert a little more control over us.
I would love for the roads authorities to exert significantly more control over the privilege of driving. I think its mind blowing we let people drive cars without having to prove they can do it annually. Yes that's right everyone should have to prove they know the road rules and can drive by them yearly.
I would argue against yearly and counter with when you renew your license you need to take and pass a catch-up course.
Amen to this, there are older people on the roads who haven’t taken their drivers test in over 50 years, WTF. Yearly or bi-yearly tests are a must and get rid of the revenue cameras and put actual police on the roads ffs
I got my licence 50 odd years ago. Road rules have changed substantially. Recently had to get a light rigid licence and discovered all sorts of rules I didn't know! So yes I'd agree BUT it's not just older drivers... A short debate on the NSW rules for the speed limit when passing a Police or Ambulance vehicle with flashing lights at the roadside might be an education. They made it 40kph limit then changed it for multilane roads... Or did they? Clearly most drivers on the road don't know. What are the rules for that in other states? Regular updates on road rules and regular recertification makes absolute sense.
Agreed
I think them remaining flat despite the addition of mobile phones and digital displays and interactive consoles into cars is the achievement of the safety features. Cars have gotten more distracting and less responsive to steering but have gotten safer and better at predicting these things for us so in the end it balances out.
It's also worth remembering that when a population increases the number of potential interactions grows exponentially. E.g if 3 cars are driving along a road and 3 cars are coming the other way there are 9 potential head on collisions, if we double it to 6 cars each way the potential collisions increase to 36.. a 100% increase in cars meant the number of potential crashes increased 300%
It's an interesting argument with some points that can be argued on either side. Against SUV's: 1) As you point out, there is no escaping the laws of physics. Chassis and suspension engineers are clever people, and (most) SUV's have come a long way, but no one can beat mother nature. 2) People in more "regular" size or height vehicles find it tougher to see around them. This same point also applies against any large vehicle, not just SUV's. In favour of SUV's: 1) *Because* so many people drive larger vehicles these days, many people say "fuck it" and also buy a larger/taller car. If you can't beat them, join them line of vibe. 2) Being higher off the ground can give you a better field of view, assuming your windows aren't tiny and pillars aren't overly chunky. I am firmly in the "fuck SUV" camp and have told my missus my next car will either be another sedan, or preferably a nice station wagon for all the reasons you just listed. I grew up racing karts and being low to the ground feels natural to me, and I also want a car with handling and grip that I can trust if/when I need it to without hesitation or doubt. But she is firmly in the "I like SUV" camp because she feels safer with the added field of view and is sick of not being able to see around almost any new car on the road in our old Astra or my lowered Bora. People will argue on this from both sides until the end of time..
Are there even nice station wagons around anymore? That aren’t euro like Audis Renaults Saabs Volvos BMW’s etc. I think the market shifted to the SUV because the wagon options dried up.
Subaru still do good wagons. You do have to take up vaping though, and it's in the contract that you have to tell everyone you meet about your Subaru so it's a big lifestyle change.
You also need to say ‘it’s pretty much a WRX rally car’ at least three times a day
It's the same platform as the rally cars, but it's more practical
... exhales vape
A Genesis shooting brake is pretty dang sweet.
Just looked it up, I don't mind it. I'm also a big fan of the new Peugeot 508 wagon, but I don't know if I'm brave enough to go French.
Absolutely gorgeous design (externally at least)!
My Mazda 6 hasn’t let me down yet, and they look pretty nice.
Now I’m in the “fuck SUV’s” camp, but in my area (rural NSW) they are better on these roads as they are shit so having ground clearance and larger wheels do help, they also hold up better against wildlife as they tend to go under the car rather than over. This is why we have the dual cab as the family car
Just remember she is probably right for her driving style and you are probably right for your driving style. She's probably a safe driver and won't need the centre of gravity / quick steer required for ex-hoons who love booting it around corners in their smaller cars :P Instead she can rely on her big car to turn across lanes and merge safely due to its excellent field of view. Just saying...
The other pro to a suv is that they are easier to get on and out of that something lower on the ground - important for an aging population. A real unmet need is actual wagons (with all their boot space), or even ‘small’ cars that are just easier for people to get in and out of..
Bring back the honda jazz. It's really the ability of seats to go flat
I can’t stand the mentality (not saying this is yours) of ‘being higher off the ground lets me see better’. If you actively look ahead or put your car in a better lane or position (pass the van or truck in front of you) you’ll be able to see ahead.
Weaponised incompetence!?
Hard if you’re in a city car surrounded by SUVs, yank tanks and wanna be yank tank Utes.
can confirm the feeling safer in an SUV/bigger car. I rented a carnival over the weekend. When I am merging due to my lane ending, cars on the right side (they have right of way) 99% of the time slows down / flashes their headlight to let me in. When I am driving my small hatch, cars on the right would almost always cut me off and impose their right of way.
> 2. People in more "regular" size or height vehicles find it tougher to see around them. This same point also applies against any large vehicle, not just SUV's. This has made left turns a painful endeavour when someone wants to turn right. Doesn’t help that SUV owners almost always pull all the way forward with no consideration that it completely blocks your vision.
Another positive is you can entry and exit driveways without slamming the bumper into the road. Crawling or going on some weird angle isn’t fun. I used to own a sedan that would scrape it’s belly going into my driveway unless I was on a weird angle
lowered Bora ftw
Being higher up with a long bonnet also makes it harder to see things directly infront of you, so you can add that too against also.
SUVs make all accidents higher energy accidents.
Ideally, everyone should have small light cars. But a collision with a dual cab ute isn't going to end well for the smaller car. I'm not implying everyone should buy large cars. Regulations should change. If I'm driving a 2.5T ute, towing a 3T trailer on a licence, I got learning to drive a 1t Suzuki Swift, that makes no sense.
So they get a car that's bigger than a dual cab ute, then the ute driver gets a yank tank and so on and so on You see the problem with this right? SUVs are the result of marketing genius by telling people they'll be safer in a bigger car when in a traffic accident. Smaller cars are just as safe as larger ones and as OP suggests, more nimble and easier to bring to a stop.
Smaller cars are roughly as safe *in a single-vehicle crash*. When you're in a Swift and you get hit head-on by a Ranger, the Ranger driver will experience lower crash forces. I like small cars, and drive them, but it's an arms race where size wins.
Damn M x V2 We need new physicists
I would be very happy if you had to get a commercial licence to drive anything classed as a commerical vehicle for emissions purposes (which is why SUVs exist in the first place). The inflation of vehicles frustrates me no end, even though I understand the reasons people buy bigger vehicles.
* Size and mass Im being pedantic, as a van/minivan will come off worse when getting ploughed by a modern twin cab ute/full sized 4WD. I digress.
True, mass is the determinant of the acceleration experienced by the vehicles (size is a decent predictor of mass, but not a perfect correlate). With people movers and particularly with vans, the relatively poor crash structures also make a big difference to occupant outcomes in an impact.
He who is largest....survives
> SUVs make all accidents higher energy accidents. So does blasting 90's techno
More passion, more energy.
How? The best selling "SUV" is the Toyota RAV4, it's lighter, shorter and safer than the Commodore station wagons that were the family car of choice 20 years ago.
They don't want to hear facts like this they just want to ranta lol
You are right, Golf Carts for everybody....
I currently have a midsized SUV (Subaru Forester) and I think will be my last. Back to the station wagon.
Thought it was a crossover? It aint nowhere near a Range Rover size which i think OPs concerned of
I'd argue it's less the fault of vehicles and more the fault of people being worse drivers now because of all the aides and safety features provided in modern cars. People become complacent and lazy and pay far less attention to the road. SUVs have their place and not every corner or bend needs to be taken at full speed.
yeah, my dad basically needs lane keep assist these days. it’s genuinely concerning driving with him, feeling the car jerk to the side while an alarm chime plays
we nearly all hate our parents driving, i made the mistake of letting my mother drive for 5hrs on a long trip, omg the stress was insane, she never drives if im in the car anymore, i'm like "ok gimme the keys!"
The lane keep assist is not the problem there.
Yeah the Audi Q3 Pre Sense is too sensitive for my liking, was going for a rolling stop when the car from the side road inched out, nowhere near to being in range for a collision and that Pre Sense just fucking ebraked and almost caused me to get rear ended.
Some of these systems are too conservative and definitely cause situations like this. Looking at you Mercedes …
I agree with you both. It’s all at play. This discussion reminds me of a post I saw where someone was praising their decision to buy an suv because they had their baby in the car when they crashed into a Corolla saying that it’s the reason why they weren’t seriously injured. All I could think of was the poor Corolla that got steam rolled by a vehicle twice its size but I’m not even sure the SUV driver thought of that.
Remember when someone posts about a crash that they had - it’s always the other drivers fault, so in reddit parlance - fuck around and find out. It’s also a vision arms race - more and more you need an SUV to have a hope of seeing past the car turning right and a better chance that an SUV won’t see you when they shoulder check
It’s probably both, being an inattentive driver means you’ll be jerkier on the steering and brakes when you finally do notice a hazard.
As someone who owns a modern SUV, I agree to the complacency, but also wanna point out the "safety systems" can also be a huge liability. If I crash, there is a not 0% chance it'll be because the car reacted in a way I didnt expect to a situation and made the problem worse. I'm not saying all safety systems are bad. On the contrary! the driver attention thing is pretty useful on long drives by yourself. But that lane assist thing is a piece of fucking garbage that I'm pretty certain is gonna crash us should i forget to disarm it one day.
They vary in quality though. My BMW is perfectly tuned - it warns or intervenes when it needs to, but never overreacts. My Mazda only tells me if I’ve already left the lane, and it is very inconsistent. I drove a Kia and it was all over the place, beeping at me and pogo-ing from one side of the lane to the next
Don’t forget to include shitty driving skills in your analysis. It’s scary the amount of times I’ve seen movies playing on other drivers mobile phones on those dashboard/AC vent mounts. Some people are so addicted to their phones they can’t even hold off staring at them while driving.
When I worked in fast food I saw this in drive-thrus all the time. Sure, it might be a little safer to watch a film in a drive-thru than on the road, but don't expect me to believe they aren't also doing it on the road. The scariest ones would keep their phones in their laps rather than on mounts.
You are asking a bit much here 😉👍
I’d argue it’s driver inattention, more than anything, that’s pushing up the road deaths.
phones and other distractions...
Driving is a distraction from the phone.
Why are road deaths decreasing in most other developed countries with the same distractions as Australian drivers have. Australia has a similar vehicle market to the US (albeit our SUVs and Pick-ups are smaller) and the US is also experiencing a higher road toll than in recent years. Ultimately driving bigger and heavier vehicles is most likely the causative factor and we are heading in the wrong direction.
It's not like Europe isn't embracing crossovers - there's a reason why even the Euro manufacturers are discontinuing wagons and releasing more crossovers to the market. The biggest irony of this entire thread is that the OP's flair indicates they drive a Polestar 2. Which is a Volvo XC40 Recharge with a vaguely sedan shaped body.
I think it’d be a challenge to back up that drivers are becoming more inattentive. Mobile phones have been a thing for ages now…
But socials and their notifications are binging newer drivers, often addicted to their apps. Personally, I gave up riding motorcycles because it’s just so bad now. And I love motorcycles
I read this as you were so afflicted by your phone addiction that you couldn’t ride bikes any more due to it.
More people getting cars with LKA, so they are driving up country roads fully engrossed in the latest tik tok so they can talk about it when they get to footy training.
Mobile phones and alcohol.
I agree that sedans/wagons are better handling than SUVs overall. But….My other comment on this comes from that time around 1996 when my Subaru RS Turbo wagon was on a lift at my mechanic. Next it on a lift was a near new VS commodore with its wheels off. I was shocked at how puny the commodore brakes were and how primitive the suspension design was. I wouldn’t say it would be safer than a new RAV4. I know how tail happy those things were in the wet.
Yes, but bigger disks and more pistons means more resistance to brake fade when used hard repeatedly. Not relevant to normal driving. If the ABS kicks in, the brakes are adequate. RS Turbo is a performance car. Independent suspension will also be superior in handling.The RAV4 would be safer with all the drivers aids and crash safety than the VS, though Apples for apples, lower centre of gravity handles better than higher.
The brakes on anything non-HSV (or brembo on certain SS’s) are absolutely pathetic on every commodore. As other commenter said, it’s mostly brake fade but the stopping power for the size of the car was well behind its contemporary’s.
Small brakes aren't an issue under normal driving conditions and the suspension is more than adequate for Australia speed limits.
I drive an AU1, its brakes are woeful if I use them hard on the twisties, they're perfectly fine and the ABS activating at any speed. So many people get confused over pedal feel and twin pistons/drilled/slotted disks being better/making the car stop faster when it's good tyres and maintenance of brakes and suspension. Too many bros with cut springs, Chinese tyres on 20-inch fake yeah buds, with slotted rotors thinking they're stopping quicker.
More people than ever = more traffic = more accidents = more fatal accidents. Not rocket science. If the population falls or remains stable yet accidents/fatalities then still go up that's when it's time to start exploring outside of the blatantly obvious for why.
Yeah but then we can't circlejerk manuelle wagonnes
One thing that gives me the shits is, If People buy SUVs for the higher driving position and better visibility,then why do nearly all drivers set their seat height so low they can barely see over the steering wheel? Sure overall they're slightly higher off if the ground, but due to the low seat height there is no way they can see the front of the bonnet, giving them worse visibility overall.
You haven’t seen me drive an SUV. I’m short so highest setting on the seat and everyone asks “why are you so high?” And then when I drive my car during the week (a sedan) I feel very low. However, I can’t justify the cost of an SUV (it’s not mine but on occasion I do get to drive it) or any other car really (sh*t prices) and people already criticise me for owning a Camry (why do I need such a big car?) when they drive a 7 seater for 1 child. It is what it is. I have a car, I’m lucky to have one. End of.
Because they’ll make any excuse to justify their “need” to keep up and maintain their place within the social strata they feel they have to be a part of.
It's cope for the increased costs associated with driving a larger and heavier vehicle.
Where in the source does it say anything about SUV's? Am i missing something?
It doesn't. He just threw the theory up. Can't confirm nor deny he is wrong though
So...there is allegedly a mystery about why the death toll is rising. What is the cause? Well, the Federal Gov apparently wants the states to be more transparent and share a uniform data set about fatalities. This will (hopefully) solve the mystery. OP days he knows the answer...and it is SUVs. I dunno...surely there aren't over 30% more SUVs on the road in NSW this year compared to last? So why would 30% more of them be crashing now? I also think the data set might be more about blood alcohol, age, years driving, speed etc than make and model.of car.
I truly believe that driving a small hatch has made me a better driver. No choice in the matter, I have to be a better driver or I won’t survive with all these monster trucks driving around. Almost everything is bigger than me and I’ll be crushed under them if I’m not concentrating and driving defensively at all times!
try riding a motorbike. You will headcheck even in a car after then, and pay way more attention overall.
I used to ride, gave up years ago as there are just too many fuckwit drivers in Sydney and that was before the monster truck infestation! I used to drive trucks too. I think that helped me become a better driver as I now understand the handling characteristics of every vehicle on the road.
And cheap as chips to run!
Even a small hatch isn’t that cheap to run anymore when piled on top of all the other cost of existing expenses. I shudder to think how much those big vehicles cost to run!
But Ford Rangers are not SUvs, so how could this possibly be correct?
probably the other way around, young yelling at old
More people on the road, more cars more crashes. Pretty simple surely?
EV's weigh more than ICE passenger cars. Men are drivers in more fatal accidents than women. Rear enders kill more than any other type of accident. Therefore we can conclude that males into rear ends, who drive fancy EVs are the biggest danger on the road today!
I’ll be keeping my Outback. I don’t care what everyone else thinks it is, it’s a raised station wagon. Drives and handles like a car. On the registration papers it’s a Panel Van, on the marketing brochure it’s an SUV. Ironically, it’s currently getting assessed for a write off after a Rav4 ran up the back of me at traffic lights. Rav4 didn’t brake. Outback took full impact and I walked away with just a small bruise on my upper arm. Will be getting another one for sure.
I see outbacks everywhere where I live. It’s like the universe is telling me to get one! 😀
This is a good car. Not at all what I mean by an SUV. Outback’s, cross country, all road, whatever you call them are a great balance of ground clearance and handling without the major compromises of an egg on wheels.
Most SUVs aren't that big. Smaller than the commodores and falcons of the last 30 years. You have good visibility and they are easier to get in and out of. I think OP is mad because his tiny car is all that he could afford.
The real issue i see is inattentive and/or impatient driving, and since COVID both are far more prevalent than pre-COVID in my observation, it’s like 70% of people forgot how to drive. Just watch any Dashcams Australia video and most would be avoidable issues if all drivers were actually paying attention and had some patience.
I can't travel off grid for a few weeks at a time in a hatchback, so I have a large 4wd vehicle. I can't afford 3 cars (wife drives a hatch) so I drive it all the time. Will you pay for my 3rd car so I can leave my 4x4 in the garage? Didn't think so.
I get to drive a whole range of vehicles through my job. Newer vehicles have so many damn distractions! Sensors, cameras, automatic headlights/wipers, lane assist… I get into a new car these days and often feel like I’m about to take off in the starship enterprise. Just trying to fight with the menus to turn half the crap off is a challenge. Speed limits are whack too. It seems like everyone is terrified of going even NEAR the limit which causes people around them to get frustrated and start to take risks to get around them and away from them. I think cars are way too complicated these days, have far too many distractions and that the quality of our driver education is severely lacking. Edit: you’ve also got people that have zero spacial awareness or understanding of how their vehicle turns who are driving around in these giant SUVs reversing into bollards and destroying their rims on carpark kerbs.
Lmao a VS handling better than a new Toyota. Pull ya head in mate. Those things were like driving a boat.
Worth mentioning that these fucking oversized cunt mobiles also alter perceptions of the driver into them thinking they are invincible. I’m shocked if I don’t see a Ford Ranger tailgating at 110kmh while raining.
>I can categorically say that the VS commodore of the 90s handles better than a modern RAV4, Prado, landcruiser 200, Honda CRV, Ranger Ute etc. I can't believe I made it though that much written diarrhea before reading the most stupid thing I've ever seen in my life. Get a grip bro, lay off the crack pipe.
Thought this was cars circlejerk for a minute Your anger for a car design is quite fascinating, and funny in a saddening way
I don't know what SUV you're driving but they're mostly really low profile tyres and have great performance. The stats show most preventable accidents are caused by ice smoking lunatics driving busted up commodores.
OP is fucking insane he thinks 20 year old cars handle better. People only remember what they want to believe. It's like when old people talk about the performance of their muscle cars when in reality the old XD 351 wouldn't blow smoke up a SV6's ass. IMO people on reddit have a really hard time with the idea that our country is the size of the USA with 5 major cities and a whole lot of nothing. People like to drive big cars that are comfortable, capable offroad and nice to driver over bad roads. As much as the echo chamber has people thinking everyone hates 4x4s, SUVs and American trucks. Irl people compliment them and like them.
Come on grandpa let’s get you to bed
There is definitely more roll over accidents these days
I dunno if you look over the decades it’s significantly gone down with the occasional rise , add to it the mass amount of ppl were importing with the “good luck everybody, I turn now” driving style it doesn’t seem crazy alarming
I think it’s part of it. It’s also changing demographics. Introduction of Uber. Too many “safety systems” that people take for granted but then become complacent. Etc.
People are worse at driving before Covid and more of them are driving rather than use public transport. We have also had a massive population increase where most of those are from countries with incredibly poor driving and often it’s years before they get an Oz license here.
I am ashamed to be driving a (smallish) suv cos i just couldn’t handle the migraines i got from being eye level with all the arsehole lazer headlights. That is the main reason. I don’t like suv’s. And it doesn’t even carry what my old jazz could. Its slow, chews more gas, ugly, has appallingly bad visibility, and is just shit in every way - except i don’t have the migraines. I wish there was some taller car that wasn’t an suv. I would have gone for a van, but the covid tax blew them into another universe.
I regularly attend auctions, specifically damaged vehicles auctions. So i see the vehicles that are written off or are repairable write-offs. And they aren't the 4wds and big utes. The majority are 15 to 25 year old sedans. Probably half would be commodores, falcons and camrys.
The world would be a better place if everyone was forced to drive mx5's. I've beeing saying this for decades
I have to agree. My Mazda 3 feels a lot safer handling wise, at speed, on country roads than any SUV or 4WD I've driven.
Another amateur expert who knows exactly what is best for every other person in Australia… 🙄
My perspective: Increase in deaths = increase in automatic cars And increased dash tech 😄
Bruh, make international licenses harder to get So many people coming from countries with minimal road rules, where it's consistently bumper to bumper traffic, and they pay $40 to become fully qualified Nah that's fucked up. They should have to do do their entire leaners because aus roads, aus rules, and 110km roads are an entirely different ball game ALSO Licenses should be much harder to get. People feel like it's an entitlement when it's actually a privilege. Not to mention cars are probably one of the biggest emission contributions that we all sweep under the rug. It's a fucking joke
To be fair a 35 year old car/ Ute agents a new car. New car wins by a mile. Now compare a 35 yr old 4WD ( short based cruiser/ Pajero) and there is massive improvement. The issue is the number of ‘commercial’ vehicles in the total fleet is way up ( tax incentives by governments driving sales and salary packages) these vehicles are exempt from many ADR and perform terribly in crash test ( new Jeep = 1 star!!! ) It is also critical that we know IF these vehicles are over represented in crash data.
Watch Dash Cams Australia for a while and you'll notice almost all the rollovers are SUVs. Even tiny bingles with a small SUV have them flipping on their lids. It's a crying shame.
Truth
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dangers-of-muscle-cars American analysis of deaths per vehicle type. The safest vehicles for occupants section is dominated by SUVs and they are also well represented in the lower death to other party section. Studies like this would be skewed by demographic to a degree
Yep, high performance cars and tiny cars. A LandCruiser vs a Kia Picanto, I know which one I'd rather be in.
Also interesting to see kia rio and forte feature in the high deaths to others section given their size... Could be that theyre baught by bad drivers that frequently cause high speed accidents
Yeah, probably something about the demographic that buys them. I imagine a lot are young people.
slight price difference between a land cruiser and a picanto. so apples and oranges bro
I've driven A LOT of cars, and SUVs are the worst. The only two reasons I can think of getting a 5-seater SUV is because it makes loading a baby into their seat, easier. I mean, you can store more stuff in it I guess, but so can wagons. Apart from that, I just see a vehicle that's too heavy (poor handling & braking distance), and too high (even poorer handling & more susceptible to flipping in an accident), which IMO means being more susceptible to accidents. The argument for a "better FOV" is true I guess, but I don't feel any tangible benefit from it. You can still see the car in-front and flow of traffic in a non-SUV, too. The other reason is - if you can't beat them, join them: [https://drivinginsights.com.au/novated-leasing/are-bigger-cars-making-us-less-safe/](https://drivinginsights.com.au/novated-leasing/are-bigger-cars-making-us-less-safe/) Basically, if you get into an accident with an SUV (as a pedestrian or smaller car) it's gg.
What sedan/wagon/car have the same towing capacity as a landcruiser/patrol?
IMO, that's a different class of vehicle - you either need to tow more or carry more people. I get that. They have a proper use case. (I know they're classed as "full-size SUVs", but they were called 4WDs or People Movers before being labelled SUVs). I guess my comments are towards small/mid sized SUVs, hence the '5 seater'.
Thank you. This guy gets it.
I love and agree with everything you've said, OP. SUVs are cancer.
Most of the SUVs and big fucking vehicles is only 1 person in it as well. I hate these fucking cars. The drivers always ignorant and park their vehicles in small car parks.
Sorry but SUVs are just too convenient for families and just in general. Higher clearance means less chance of scraping speed humps, driveways etc. easier to see over obstacles, easier to get in and out of, easier to load and unload, generally more usable boot space especially compared to sedans… SUVs are here to stay so best get used to it.
“Characterless pieces of shit” Op Drives an npc car. Lmfao I’m dead. This sub has some wankers I swear.
I think you're entirely right about the physics of it all. Data shows that larger the cars on the road = more severe the damage to all those involved when an accident does occur. Additionally those in smaller vehicles come off worse when in an accident with a larger vehicle. This creates a problem because SUVs have become main stream 'fashionable' to own over the last decade. The problem is this: As the % of vehicles on the road becomes more dominant by SUVs it increasingly becomes in my own interests to drive a large SUV to protect myself and my family. However by buying into the SUV market I am now contributing to making every non SUV owner (including pedestrians and cyclists) lives more dangerous. The impact on those F series ford monstrosities in the US is clear as day, bigger cars means more dead people. The government needs to act. Restricting the ownership of large civilian vehicles through additional licensing and training. Taxing large vehicles accordingly to their increased footprint, environmentally but also the footprint of the human damage tbey cause Good on ya for bringing it up
Wouldn't that have more to do with the weight of the vehicle rather than the marketing terms used to describe them? 25 years ago the Commodore wagon was the car of choice for most families, these days it's the Toyota RAV4 and despite all the additional safety tech the RAV4 doesn't weight any more than the old Commodore. Of course as usual this isn't about facts though, it's about people getting triggered by the term "SUV", which is why there's no evidence that today's top selling "SUV" is less safe than yesteryear's top selling wagon.
everyone needs a Honda Jazz!!! magic seats in the back that go flat, can fit 5 adults or a washing machine in it! handle so well, the shell is 1 piece welded, not 2 front and back welded together. 7 airbags, 5 star rating.
You okay?
Rav4 touched his pee pee.
Speed limits should be changed to momentum limits.
Your story would be equally valid if you replaced SUV with ute - worse when you add how bad most ute drivers are.
Agree. Long live the station wagons ✊🏻
What I learnt from this post. OP : Commodore better Toyota shitter at driving on tight bends at speed limit when not following speed caution signs.
Speed caution signs are for visibility. Even your lifted egg mobile should be able to exceed them comfortably.
the australia wide increase is nearly all NSW dominated (up 32%). Is it comparing to pandemic suppressed road traffic? sydney is bursting at the seams and so too is road traffic. More time and more frustration in the car and more people == more fatal accidents.
All of my driving starts as country driving. I have a 4x4 as a camping/exploring vehicle and would only use it for that (it's a $4k Discovery) if it wasn't for its ability to hit roo's and be undamaged. I don't drive it all the time, but dawn/dusk and night it is the vehicle I'm taking. Writing off my fun car (or any normal car) every 12-24 months is not a risk worth taking for me. I am in a very niche position though, so most people don't need a SUV, and no one needs one that can't go offroad and doesnt have a ladder frame for a bullbar. People movers, Minivans and Wagons etc. do a better job of daily urban duties vs. any SUV out there.
What if it’s a performance suv? Haha. I understand. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea. My partner has sworn to never get a suv again. He said as much of a performance an suv can get, it’s just not the same if it was in a smaller body and closer to the ground. I am a hatch person. Also on that note, We got the suv because we wanted to start a family of 4 and we only wanted 1 car at the time. We then realised we don’t need a bigger car for that. You live you learn. Everyone has different needs though.
BMW X5 Look no further Lower centre of gravity, adjustable suspension, and performance up to ying yang. I agree with OP, some of the new light plastic high ride bounce pieces of shit really are trash, but there are plenty of great SUV options out there. The Merc is also a good option. I get they are a bit more expensive, but you are paying for ride quality
I think it’s a lot of drivers who haven’t had to sit a driving test in Australia
It’s funny how all The Falcons and Commodores were considered too large. Yet are dwarfed now by the new SUVs.
Sedans forever!
Fuck off. I love my SUV. You drive what you want and leave me alone. I don't want to bottom out every damn bump i go over. Camry drivers are about the worst drivers on the road in my opinion. And whilst i don't mind driving with my kids? Their cars are low and not very comfy. My Subaru & X Trail rule👍😀😉
I drove the work Kluger recently. Brand new car and it drove like an absolute boat compared to my GTI. Just sort of...floats and rolls about. You sit up higher, but the bonnet is also longer and more square at the front. I felt I had reduced visibility for anything directly in front of me, say, for example, a small child.
> High profile spongy tyres. Soft suspension. High centre of gravity. This really isn't a problem for the 99% of people who aren't treating their drive to the local Westfield to pick up some eggs and milk as a special stage of Targa Tasmania. You know what those things are good for? Roads with potholes the size of lunar craters, concrete expansion joints that are wider than the Grand Canyon, and speed humps on every block for "traffic calming". I don't drive an SUV/crossover myself but I honestly don't understand the obsession that some people have with gatekeeping what other people drive. If someone wants to commute in an old Land Rover Defender, that's fine with me. If they want to do it in a Morgan 3-Wheeler, that's also fine with me.
Think you should start with the idiots driving these cars. Family mums, taking their kids to school make up a large proportion of SUVs on the road. I drive a 4wd utility because I know what it will do to an idiot's car should that idiot drive idiotically. But blaming the car and not the driver, is a bit lame. I think the majority of SUV drivers think their car will protect them and this affects their driving. All it takes is a crash and they get hurt badly, to change their ways. Natural selection takes care of most of these morons.
If it can’t pass the “Moose test” (a chicane at speed) then it shouldn’t be sold.
“ Steering sloppier than an Onlyfans collaborator.” ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ !!
You clearly haven’t driven a Tesla Model Y. It has better handling than a corvette. Go drive one for a few months and see how hard it is to take it back.
Some of us have families and like to get out in the bush on the weekends. Really just a stupid rant mate that doesn’t consider any real world factors.
Yeah but why buy a patrol when you can buy a pulsar and go fast around a corner once in a blue moon when you're not stuck in traffic. /s
Because a pulsar doesn’t get you off-road that’s why. Different vehicles have different purposes.
That was sarcasm hence the /s
It's almost as if technology makes us mentally lazy. IDK, just speaking non-empirically here.
My Kodiaq is the best car I’ve owned. Drives well, heaps of room and comfy. I also have a v6 Toyota blade and have owned sedans/performance hatches and people have a bit of a rose tinted view of these cars.
SUV’s don’t have to be in the shit handling group - plenty will out drive nearly every sports sedan out there and some will out drive their sports car brethren (the macan GTS has lapped faster than the 911 Carerra on Porsche tra k days ) It’s a choice by manufacturers and their target markets
I have the Mitsubishi ASX. It's a lot more versatile than my old VS Commodore. For one, it's not as long, so it's easier to park. It's higher, so it's easy to get the kids in/out, or change a nappy on the seats. The boot bed is flat to the edge if you know what I mean. The Commodore had a "lip". That plus being higher means I can change a nappy in the boot very easily. The seats folding completely down means I can transport quite large pieces of furniture in the car. Couldn't do that in the Commodore. It's pretty small compared to a lot of SUVs. I think when people say SUV they think of outlanders and large almost 4wd-sized vehicles. The ASX is more like a big hatchback.
Ok we get it you drive a hatchback.
My take away here is that Op drives too fast on country roads - not unsurprisingly a disproportionate cause of fatalities.
I just wish more people realised that if you're the only person in your ram 1500 then a yaris would do the exact same job for much cheaper.
bUt A yArIs DoEsNt MaKe Me FeEl LiKe A bIg MaN
Or maybe just buy what you like? My BMW X5M is fantastic dynamically, works well on road and even on track. Not many cars that handle family duties, towing and fun. Extra clearance is great over a wagon.
those v8's are complete petrol hoggs and the tyres are like 10" wide back wheels. Very expensive upkeep. terrible advice to buy one of these.
Who says it’s advice? I literally said buy what you like? Also not everyone prioritises fuel economy or running costs, there are many other factors.
I have an Audi sq5 and the same feels. Wickedly faster and better handling than any commodore I’ve had, and the fuel economy is on par with Corolla or Camry.
Are you ok? I don't own an SUV. But I'm pretty tolerant if other people have different tastes and make other choices. There are lots of large vehicles on the road that are not SUVs. It must be hard going through life with that amount of pent up rage.
I drive a small 4wd with a huge amount of body roll and a shit safety rating. Never have I even been close to crashing it because I’m a responsible driver. OP has so much anger towards a specific type of car. I suggest maybe take a look at the people driving the cars. Don’t hold the hose on the smoke during a house fire, direct it at the flame.
>Notice how the road toll seems to be always linked to country driving? That’s because our country roads aren’t really up to the task. If you’re comparing Aus to other developed countries in terms of road toll, our main highways and country roads are an absolute joke compared to overseas. It’s incredibly simplistic to think banning SUVs would magically drop our road toll.
I’m currently mid-lap of Australia, and I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t be able to cross some of the roads (due to flooding), or access some of the sights I’ve managed to see, if I wasn’t in my lifted diesel 4x4. A standard passenger car or wagon doesn’t have the GVM of my 4x4, and as such, I wouldn’t be able to load it up as much for camping/touring like I have. I’d be relying on motels/hotels, which limits where and when you can go to places. I have a decent 12 volt system, powering two fridges, a Travel Buddy oven, a 2000w inverter, 2 solar panels on the roof, plus all our gear and a drawer system. I also have 2 awnings, on top of that, plus an extended long range fuel tank (223L total capacity). A regular car or wagon wouldn’t be able to handle this, nor could it handle outback roads (such as the 3hr stretch of corrugations out and back from Steep Point). Saying SUV/4x4’s are the problem is a very city-centric viewpoint. Some outback towns don’t have roads suitable for a regular car. The road toll problem isn’t the vehicles as much as it’s the complacent unskilled drivers.
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Sounds like a skill issue