As I read it there was a FFP breach related to the time in the PL and a second related to the EFL. So there is likely to be a points deduction in the PL and if they’re relegated a further points deduction will follow.
Imagine a team breaches ffp but also gets relegated that season. They proceed to spend the next 20 years in the lower divisions, before finally making a long-awaited return to the premier league. Where they are promptly hit with a 20 year old points deduction
PL and EFL really need to both come to an agreement to enforce discipliniary decisions made by the other.
If the EFL finds a club cheated FFP to win the Championship and then issues the now-Premier League team with a points deduction, the Premier League should apply it - and vice versa with teams that get relegated.
Its that simple.
I’m interested what was the situation if they hadn’t got promoted? Would they have avoided the breach that is likely happening in the Premier League?
Also wonder now where it puts the club, as they’re now going to be worry about relegation/assume they are now going to be careful with spending.
The PL breach would have waited for them. I don't know what the period would be. It would be ridiculous if it didn't expire. Imagine if Leeds had got a points deduction in 2020 due to financial shenanigans on their way down in 2005. I think we were punished enough.
In theory Leicester should have been careful about spending last time. An actual deduction may influence their decision. Either option is still available to them.
Leicesters wage bill is fkg huge. Vardy is on £8million a year (iirc) and several other players are pulling big bucks. If they hadn’t been promoted this year they would have had to sell some of their high end earners. Similar position to Leeds.
It’s. Tough gig being a Chairman or club accountant these days
When the PL can't even work with the EFL to prevent the entire footballing pyramid from failing due to lack of funding, it seems unlikely they'll agree on these. Needs to all be owned by the same company or there will always be that conflict of interest
You'd think the FA would fill this role wouldn't you? What with them being THE BLOODY GOVERNING BODY OF FOOTBALL.
This is why the independent regulator is such a necessity.
The precedent was already set when they docked points off Everton and Nottingham Forest.
And Leicester breaches are considered more serious than the other two.
They will throw the book at them 100%.
I hope so.
Edit: for those asking why... Well because we were found foul of the rules and we were punished and it hurt us, since then we've played by the rules but clubs like Forrest, Everton and now what appears Leicester spent their way out while we went down, and being relegated shouldn't mean you avoid punishment. Don't get me started on Man City they deserve to be dissolved.
Maybe I’m a salty Leeds fan too, but when we were in the prem, we followed the rules and got relegated, while a couple other teams didn’t follow the rules and stayed up. So there’s probably some consensus that it would’ve been better to just break the rules, but idk
Well, yeah, we get that. We feel the same way.
The only reason we've "broken the rules" is because we were relegated.
If we had survived, we would have had more income due to PL money, and because we did stop spending two summers ago, we would be fine right now.
The narrative one season ago was that we got relegated because we wouldn't give Rodgers money for players. But we didn't spend because we were trying to follow these rules, meanwhile Everton continued to spend, they stay up and get rewarded for it.
I think we’ve every right to be salty. We’ve been bending over backwards to meet FFP while teams we were competing with against avoiding relegation and gain promotion didn’t. They’re all receiving deductions in following seasons when they’re not competing with us, and even those are reduced on appeal. It’s a bit of a farce really.
But we did bend over backwards to meet FFP. We're now going into our third summer in a row of "Leicester must sell before they buy" stories.
When we got relegated, Rodgers was moaning all year that we were unable to buy players, that our squad wasn't good enough because the owners weren't opening their purse. And the media backed him up! "Why aren't Leicester backing their manager?"
Rodgers kicked up a hissy fit because we couldn't spent, and instead of doing his job, let his bad mood spread to the players, resulting in our relegation.
If we hadn't been relegated, our lack of spending that year would have been enough to not breach FFP.
We have not broken any rules to get an advantage. We did what we had to do to not break FFP, paid the price for it, and now we're going to get punished for it anyway.
The entire system is a joke.
You were in breach the year you were relegated, your relegation affected your finances the following year, which you’ll also be in breach for.
To say you broke no rules and gain no advantage is just a bizarre statement.
Ironically we got relegated when trying to mitigate the size of the breach, so I guess the advantage maybe got us 18th instead of 20th. Mitigating was also why we sacked Rodgers so late, trying to avoid paying him off. Ironically he downed tools because we didnt rebuild the squad for him, why didnt we do that? Trying to mitigate the breach.
We also didnt sign the target Enzo wanted in January, it only would have cost half a million but didnt do it.
However the EFL season we have no obligation to meet PSR for previous seasons as none of them are written into EFL FFP rules, a loop hole you have to point the finger at the rule makers. Of course a future EFL season might have a deduction if we end up breaching this season just gone by (we wont know this until end of June).
We have also been embargoed illegally by the EFL.
It seems a club was lobbying the EFL on the run in (rumoured to be Leeds) which is why all these desperate moves was made by the EFL. Someone trying to get promoted via off the field stuff.
Not defending the financial management, we clearly gave out over lucrative contracts, but its wrong to claim we just carried on normally over the past 2 seasons, clearly the club tried to do mitigation.
There is no rules for size of breach, and 9 is for admin, and we not in admin.
So I expect it to be 8, the main thing that will affect us, that with such a big breach it will be hard to get 2 points removed from the penalty for cooperating.
Are our breaches considereed more serious? That's the first time i've seen that being suggested.
Everything i've seen suggests it'll be similar to Everton because we broke PSR/FFP rules on two counts.
They had a 10 point deduction, reduced to 6 on appeal and then given two more after they were mathematically safe.
Forest broke the rules on one count. They were deducted 4 points.
There's the precedence. More than 8 points would be unfair.
This just shows how little you understand the charges. We were charged twice for 2 separate, overlapping time periods. Therefore the second charge got significant mitigation due to us having been punished for 75% of the years in question.
Your charges first charge is comparable, second is completely different so no precedent for what that punishment would be. In addition Everton and Forest both got mitigation for co-operating. There's no mitigation when you refused to submit accounts.
Your best hope is the continued reliance on the 9 points for administration being an upper limit but expecting lower deductions than Everton or forest is pure delusion.
I dont think its the same. Everton were charged with breaking PSR/FFP for two separate accounting periods and were penalised for both during the same season.
Leicester are charged with breaking PSR/FFP as well as not submitting audited finanicals for one accounting period.
As far as i can tell Everton did submit audited finanicals.
The counts can also be different in severity, and those clubs also cooperated with the league. You’ll receive a more serious deduction and will be less likely to receive a reduction on appeal. They’ll rightfully be an EFL deduction waiting for you on your way back down too.
Of course it isn’t. There’s no defined value in PL rules but the severity of the breach is a consideration when applying the deduction along with any mitigating factors.
Just look at the bookies. Leicester are runaways leaders in the relegation odds because they're already accounting for a huge points deduction.
Same reason that some bookies have Man City at 14/1 to get relegated lol
Shouldn't be -12. Part of Everton's appeal for their first one was that 9 points is the deduction for administration, so anything above that would be unbalanced for breaking FFP. I'd say something like 8 reduced to 6.
That might be so, but my view is they will be coming at you whichever which way they can to make an example. My angle is of course not unbiased 😅. Realistically I'm thinking 10pts. Also is that a 2pt adjustment of the points penalty for being cooperative? Rather than the penalty for being aggressively uncooperative? I'd expect that to be more.
You may well be right which is why I think we employed a legal team for it. The EFL were quite aggressive last season, it was almost desperate from them, asking us for a business plan when it wasn't in the rules to do and then giving us an embargo before the financial period is over.
Yes on the 2 points, Everton got 2 deducted from penalty for being cooperative.
I think with -6 you could survive with a good manager. Everton managed to do, although under different conditions such as having three poor teams worse than them
I really think you’re underestimating our squad. I’m convinced we won’t be anywhere near the relegation zone next season (assuming we don’t lose any key assets, namely Dewsbury-Hall and Hermansen)
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Whatever happens, it needs to happen quickly. No team should be deducted points midway through a season. It's utter farcical. How are teams meant to plan accordingly with an impending points deduction?
They will get points off but it will be minimal. They can't give them 20 points because that means they would have to relegate the cheats at the top several divisions.
Leicester will probably get 3-6 points and that means the other 2 cheats will get 20 points but it will still keep them in the PL.
basically 100% likelyhood. everton and forest already took deductions. the real question is how many points they deduct and what gets lessened on appeals. the efl also had its sights on leicester and it was only by some wrangling that we did not get a deduction this past season.
as to whether we survive, who knows. a lot of people likely think we won't. i'm honestly hopeful that we can be resourceful enough to finish near the bottom of the table, but out of the relegation zone. time will tell.
practically guaranteed. precedent is it can't be more than admin so puts 8 as the absolute cap, but given we sued absolutely everyone about it we're not getting points back for cooperation like forest. 6-8 is what we're expecting
Big 6 Slap back. I predict 6 points. Fox fan through and through but not sad about this hard lesson the club had to learn. It was a total gamble to try get to back to Europe by ignorant spending and …we lost. I see very little discussion of why clubs like Leicester , Everton, NF feel the need to spend recklessly and not get their (P&L profit and loss not the other PL) in order to get to where the real money is. Everyone just wants to see a beat down for “financial shenanigans” This is clearly a league systemic problem. PL should be embarrassed by all of it. They will not fix what’s broken. Not excusing them but it’s like Amateurs trying to run the table in Vegas with a stacked deck.
They could at least move forward with a few of the charges now, to gain the confidence of the public if nothing else.
Its also worth mentioning that in the 2-3 years that this issue has been in limbo, Man City has sued the Premier League (about an unrelated matter) and that went to mediation within a few weeks.
As I read it there was a FFP breach related to the time in the PL and a second related to the EFL. So there is likely to be a points deduction in the PL and if they’re relegated a further points deduction will follow.
And this is another issue we have. You gain immunity if you switch leagues. Should never be like this. EFL and PL should work together on these things
Imagine a team breaches ffp but also gets relegated that season. They proceed to spend the next 20 years in the lower divisions, before finally making a long-awaited return to the premier league. Where they are promptly hit with a 20 year old points deduction
Imagine robbing a bank and fleeing abroad for 20 years and then getting arrested when you return to the uk.
With interest. Now it’s a 100 point deduction
Have a limitation like 3 years/seasons perhaps?
PL and EFL really need to both come to an agreement to enforce discipliniary decisions made by the other. If the EFL finds a club cheated FFP to win the Championship and then issues the now-Premier League team with a points deduction, the Premier League should apply it - and vice versa with teams that get relegated. Its that simple.
I’m interested what was the situation if they hadn’t got promoted? Would they have avoided the breach that is likely happening in the Premier League? Also wonder now where it puts the club, as they’re now going to be worry about relegation/assume they are now going to be careful with spending.
The PL breach would have waited for them. I don't know what the period would be. It would be ridiculous if it didn't expire. Imagine if Leeds had got a points deduction in 2020 due to financial shenanigans on their way down in 2005. I think we were punished enough. In theory Leicester should have been careful about spending last time. An actual deduction may influence their decision. Either option is still available to them.
Leicesters wage bill is fkg huge. Vardy is on £8million a year (iirc) and several other players are pulling big bucks. If they hadn’t been promoted this year they would have had to sell some of their high end earners. Similar position to Leeds. It’s. Tough gig being a Chairman or club accountant these days
Didint Vardy just go an extension also?
When the PL can't even work with the EFL to prevent the entire footballing pyramid from failing due to lack of funding, it seems unlikely they'll agree on these. Needs to all be owned by the same company or there will always be that conflict of interest
You'd think the FA would fill this role wouldn't you? What with them being THE BLOODY GOVERNING BODY OF FOOTBALL. This is why the independent regulator is such a necessity.
The precedent was already set when they docked points off Everton and Nottingham Forest. And Leicester breaches are considered more serious than the other two. They will throw the book at them 100%.
Qpr (42,000,000) serious ?
I hope so. Edit: for those asking why... Well because we were found foul of the rules and we were punished and it hurt us, since then we've played by the rules but clubs like Forrest, Everton and now what appears Leicester spent their way out while we went down, and being relegated shouldn't mean you avoid punishment. Don't get me started on Man City they deserve to be dissolved.
Why?
Because it is idiotic to get immunity by falling a league and continuing your shenanigans
Salty Leeds fan
Maybe I’m a salty Leeds fan too, but when we were in the prem, we followed the rules and got relegated, while a couple other teams didn’t follow the rules and stayed up. So there’s probably some consensus that it would’ve been better to just break the rules, but idk
Well, yeah, we get that. We feel the same way. The only reason we've "broken the rules" is because we were relegated. If we had survived, we would have had more income due to PL money, and because we did stop spending two summers ago, we would be fine right now. The narrative one season ago was that we got relegated because we wouldn't give Rodgers money for players. But we didn't spend because we were trying to follow these rules, meanwhile Everton continued to spend, they stay up and get rewarded for it.
I think we’ve every right to be salty. We’ve been bending over backwards to meet FFP while teams we were competing with against avoiding relegation and gain promotion didn’t. They’re all receiving deductions in following seasons when they’re not competing with us, and even those are reduced on appeal. It’s a bit of a farce really.
But we did bend over backwards to meet FFP. We're now going into our third summer in a row of "Leicester must sell before they buy" stories. When we got relegated, Rodgers was moaning all year that we were unable to buy players, that our squad wasn't good enough because the owners weren't opening their purse. And the media backed him up! "Why aren't Leicester backing their manager?" Rodgers kicked up a hissy fit because we couldn't spent, and instead of doing his job, let his bad mood spread to the players, resulting in our relegation. If we hadn't been relegated, our lack of spending that year would have been enough to not breach FFP. We have not broken any rules to get an advantage. We did what we had to do to not break FFP, paid the price for it, and now we're going to get punished for it anyway. The entire system is a joke.
You were in breach the year you were relegated, your relegation affected your finances the following year, which you’ll also be in breach for. To say you broke no rules and gain no advantage is just a bizarre statement.
Ironically we got relegated when trying to mitigate the size of the breach, so I guess the advantage maybe got us 18th instead of 20th. Mitigating was also why we sacked Rodgers so late, trying to avoid paying him off. Ironically he downed tools because we didnt rebuild the squad for him, why didnt we do that? Trying to mitigate the breach. We also didnt sign the target Enzo wanted in January, it only would have cost half a million but didnt do it. However the EFL season we have no obligation to meet PSR for previous seasons as none of them are written into EFL FFP rules, a loop hole you have to point the finger at the rule makers. Of course a future EFL season might have a deduction if we end up breaching this season just gone by (we wont know this until end of June). We have also been embargoed illegally by the EFL. It seems a club was lobbying the EFL on the run in (rumoured to be Leeds) which is why all these desperate moves was made by the EFL. Someone trying to get promoted via off the field stuff. Not defending the financial management, we clearly gave out over lucrative contracts, but its wrong to claim we just carried on normally over the past 2 seasons, clearly the club tried to do mitigation.
There is no rules for size of breach, and 9 is for admin, and we not in admin. So I expect it to be 8, the main thing that will affect us, that with such a big breach it will be hard to get 2 points removed from the penalty for cooperating.
Are our breaches considereed more serious? That's the first time i've seen that being suggested. Everything i've seen suggests it'll be similar to Everton because we broke PSR/FFP rules on two counts. They had a 10 point deduction, reduced to 6 on appeal and then given two more after they were mathematically safe. Forest broke the rules on one count. They were deducted 4 points. There's the precedence. More than 8 points would be unfair.
Isn't it because you also didn't submit audited finances as well?
You're correct, the Leicester fan is just coping
Yes. We broke PSR rules on two counts. The same as Everton.
This just shows how little you understand the charges. We were charged twice for 2 separate, overlapping time periods. Therefore the second charge got significant mitigation due to us having been punished for 75% of the years in question. Your charges first charge is comparable, second is completely different so no precedent for what that punishment would be. In addition Everton and Forest both got mitigation for co-operating. There's no mitigation when you refused to submit accounts. Your best hope is the continued reliance on the 9 points for administration being an upper limit but expecting lower deductions than Everton or forest is pure delusion.
Lets see. I'm pretty sure you'll be disappointed.
Considering you don't even know what Everton's or Leicester's charges were, if you're right, it's a broken clock deal.
I'm well aware pal 👍
I dont think its the same. Everton were charged with breaking PSR/FFP for two separate accounting periods and were penalised for both during the same season. Leicester are charged with breaking PSR/FFP as well as not submitting audited finanicals for one accounting period. As far as i can tell Everton did submit audited finanicals.
The counts can also be different in severity, and those clubs also cooperated with the league. You’ll receive a more serious deduction and will be less likely to receive a reduction on appeal. They’ll rightfully be an EFL deduction waiting for you on your way back down too.
nothing in the PSR rules on size of breach, a 5 million breach is same as 50 million breach.
Of course it isn’t. There’s no defined value in PL rules but the severity of the breach is a consideration when applying the deduction along with any mitigating factors.
I agree a lower breach makes it easier to argue club tried to mitigate it, but the problem is 9 points is for admin, which makes 8 the maximum.
We'll see.
Everton weren't mathematically safe when they got the further deduction. They dropped the appeal when they were mathematically safe.
They aren't Man City, so, yeah, they're bound to get hammered.
The higher the better. We’re only on holiday for the year, soon home🥳
Just look at the bookies. Leicester are runaways leaders in the relegation odds because they're already accounting for a huge points deduction. Same reason that some bookies have Man City at 14/1 to get relegated lol
Ingot a £5 when it was 25/1
100% we will. Could be -6, could be -12. I doubt we will survive it.
Shouldn't be -12. Part of Everton's appeal for their first one was that 9 points is the deduction for administration, so anything above that would be unbalanced for breaking FFP. I'd say something like 8 reduced to 6.
I think we're facing multiple breaches, and so might get two deductions. I hope you're right and I've misunderstood.
Leicester have been massively uncooperative though, needs to be factored in.
which is why 8 is the most likely, cooperation is a 2 points adjustment.
That might be so, but my view is they will be coming at you whichever which way they can to make an example. My angle is of course not unbiased 😅. Realistically I'm thinking 10pts. Also is that a 2pt adjustment of the points penalty for being cooperative? Rather than the penalty for being aggressively uncooperative? I'd expect that to be more.
You may well be right which is why I think we employed a legal team for it. The EFL were quite aggressive last season, it was almost desperate from them, asking us for a business plan when it wasn't in the rules to do and then giving us an embargo before the financial period is over. Yes on the 2 points, Everton got 2 deducted from penalty for being cooperative.
I think with -6 you could survive with a good manager. Everton managed to do, although under different conditions such as having three poor teams worse than them
I really think you’re underestimating our squad. I’m convinced we won’t be anywhere near the relegation zone next season (assuming we don’t lose any key assets, namely Dewsbury-Hall and Hermansen)
🤣
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He will be too depressed to open Reddit by then.
Very likely plus they are one of the club's who need to sell players before the end of june to avoid even more sanctions
Whatever happens, it needs to happen quickly. No team should be deducted points midway through a season. It's utter farcical. How are teams meant to plan accordingly with an impending points deduction?
They will get points off but it will be minimal. They can't give them 20 points because that means they would have to relegate the cheats at the top several divisions. Leicester will probably get 3-6 points and that means the other 2 cheats will get 20 points but it will still keep them in the PL.
Any deductions more than 8 points and they are in serious trouble i'd say If it's 6 they can probably still stay up with a good manager
About 100% certain. They'll be going down straight back to the Championship, I'm sure.
Definitely but just how much is the question
>And will they be able to survive it? I'll put it this way, there's a big reason I've not unsubbed from r/championship
If they broke FFP this season and end up back in the championship in 25/26 they should start -10!!
basically 100% likelyhood. everton and forest already took deductions. the real question is how many points they deduct and what gets lessened on appeals. the efl also had its sights on leicester and it was only by some wrangling that we did not get a deduction this past season. as to whether we survive, who knows. a lot of people likely think we won't. i'm honestly hopeful that we can be resourceful enough to finish near the bottom of the table, but out of the relegation zone. time will tell.
You've really been pissing off both bodies with your public image of active avoidance and being uncooperative.
practically guaranteed. precedent is it can't be more than admin so puts 8 as the absolute cap, but given we sued absolutely everyone about it we're not getting points back for cooperation like forest. 6-8 is what we're expecting
The PL's ire is at Leicester because the ratings were terrible in the spring of their title run.
I think it's a formality now
Prob be only a few like 5 points taken
We will get it but I think it will be 6-8 points, not the 15 the rags are claiming as 9 is for admin, and we are not in admin.
Big 6 Slap back. I predict 6 points. Fox fan through and through but not sad about this hard lesson the club had to learn. It was a total gamble to try get to back to Europe by ignorant spending and …we lost. I see very little discussion of why clubs like Leicester , Everton, NF feel the need to spend recklessly and not get their (P&L profit and loss not the other PL) in order to get to where the real money is. Everyone just wants to see a beat down for “financial shenanigans” This is clearly a league systemic problem. PL should be embarrassed by all of it. They will not fix what’s broken. Not excusing them but it’s like Amateurs trying to run the table in Vegas with a stacked deck.
The sooner they deal with city’s 115 the easier it will be for them to dish out PSR chargers until city are sorted everything is tainted.
They could at least move forward with a few of the charges now, to gain the confidence of the public if nothing else. Its also worth mentioning that in the 2-3 years that this issue has been in limbo, Man City has sued the Premier League (about an unrelated matter) and that went to mediation within a few weeks.
Not how any legal process in history works
Is it not confi med???
Not that I have seen, but from what people say it will be