Nah, some agenda memes are ironic but many are not. Just go on some of the JJK subreddits and you'll see.
It's the same as AOT agenda memes; some are ironic, but lots are not
JJK subs posts are either completely ironic or written by children, there is no middle ground, other day someone was complaining that Sukuna didn't have random asspulls middle fight and was just using the moves he actually showed throughout the story, literally asking for bad writing.
If you take those seriously you might go crazy, Sukuna is the best "final boss" we ever had in shounen, Gege knows all the classic complaints and addressed them in the Sukuna fight (Villain not killing anyone, random asspulls instead of using moves shown throughout story, fight being too easy, no planning by the good guys, most characters being irrelevant at the final fight) anyone trying to downplay it is straight up trolling.
W comment
I think my experiences with AOT have jaded me lol
And despite some issues I have with it, the whole Shinjuku Showdown Arc has been really enjoyable for me and it is imo how a final raid boss should be done. So you're probably right and I'm screaming into the void
AoT is a bit different because it's more about people expectations on a character with no PoV til the very end, and some strange twists (loving Mikasa when he ignored her and dodged a kiss, killing his own mother and it wasnt even explained well)
JJK is just too many memes, look at the Heian era one, it was based on people expecting Sukuna to be just like Madara, and then people who weren't up to date with the manga went along like it really happened
the spark argument is dumb. the spark doesnt scream what move they're about to do. even sukuna had to guess what move gojo was going to pull based of his handsign
Which is silly, because we literally see Gojo lose his arm to WCS just a few chapters before. It's very clear he can't react to it, even at the peak of his concentration.
Gojo had no idea that slashes could cut through space at all until after he was literally sliced in half and dying on the floor. And even if Gojo figured out that Mahoraga cut off his arm by cutting space, he had no reason to worry about it after he OBLITERATED Mahoraga with his 100% Hollow Purple. As far as he was concerned, the only thing that could reliably get through Infinity had been reduced to atoms – until he was suddenly cut in half and fatally wounded.
How could he have no reason to think Sukuna could do it if he saw Makora do it and Sukuna using the same sparks? Even worse, Gojo just T pose while Sukuna was manifesting a whole binding vow (going by the position of his body he didn't even moved at all)
And let's not even get in the "can't react to it" thing, Gojo can literally teleport he has absolutely no reason to just stand their when Sukuna is preparing something.
Also : Gojo can literally recognized a cursed technique just thanks to his six eyes (he just gotta look at the dude and that's it, that's how he recognized Miguel CT if I remember correctly), that's how much OP it is, to be honest it is highly bizarre that someone like him would just stand there doing nothing especially in a fight like this while Sukuna is preparing something and HE KNOWS he's preparing something thanks to the sparks and his six eyes but eh.
I already addressed some of this, but here we go again.
There are no "same sparks". The sparks are just cursed energy about to be released as a technique. The sparks ALONE cannot be used to judge anything. In 235, Sukuna figures out Gojo will use a Red based on the intensity of the sparks as well as the handsigns. The best you can say is that Gojo saw that Sukuna was going to do some sort of powerful attack. The sparks don't build up; there isn't a charge up period. There are sparks being released like electricity as the phenomenon manifests into reality. Gojo would just see a spark and then be cut by the Dismantle a second later.
Which leads into the next point: why would Gojo think to dodge? Gojo is by far one of the cockiest and most arrogant characters in JJK, and he can back up his trash talk. Gojo has no need to dodge anything because of Infinity. In his mind, only three things can bypass Infinity (in the context of the fight): Domain Expansion, Domain Amplification, and Mahoraga. Sukuna's domain is fried, you can't use DA and a CT, and Mahoraga is gone. Why would Gojo suddenly think (in a split-second btw) "hm, what if Sukuna suddenly can bypass Infinity? Let me move just to be sure". Maybe other sorcerers would instinctively dodge if they saw a spark of CE, but Gojo isn't that kind of guy. And since Dismantles are nearly instantaneous, Gojo wouldn't have very much time to consider a dodge before it hit.
BVs made with oneself don't need to be "manifested", as they are just stat changes. Sukuna doesn't need to say anything aloud; he just tweaks his stats as he needs to. He's not making an agreement in his mind, he's recognizing that if he casts a WCD without requirements once, it'll fuck up all his future WCDs. An analogy I've seen elsewhere on Reddit is like someone picking something up that's way heavier than they're used to, and thereby throwing out their back. They've punched above their weight once, but with a cost in the future. If you think that's headcanon, fine, but all of Sukuna's BVs (and Gojo's in his domain) happen basically instantaneously.
Also, having just checked 235 to be sure, Gojo has a whole-ass monologue as he walks towards Sukuna. He says the following:
"If I don't direct Hollow Purple, it hits me too… but I've suffered less damage. Maybe because it's my own cursed energy. I like these results. Ad libbing Purple at a distance also worked out." Read that aloud and time yourself. Then time yourself as Sukuna, "manifesting" the BV. Which do you think is faster?
So even granting your claim about manifesting BVs, Sukuna would still have time.
"The intensity of the sparks" was what I meant by "same sparks" you can judge the nature of a technique thanks to some factors such as the intensity or the incantation or whatever.
Going by the intensity itself, Gojo knows that Sukuna is up to something and he knows that it is as powerfull as a cleave or whatever -> And he saw the same intensity when Makora hit him. In fact I shouldn't even talk about the sparks, thanks to his six eyes Gojo should have been able to perceive the slash cuz he can see CE very clearly with it, Maki being able to perceive slash while Gojo can't is absolutely crazy. world cleaves are still part of a technique and come from cursed energy there is NO WAY Gojo don't recognized it the second time.
At the very least he should have been a bit cautious and should have known that it is not your average slash who knows, but that's Gojo after all so eh...
We don't even know "when" the sparks appear we just now it is "right before" This is important because teleportation is instantaneous. When Sukuna reacted to the sparks he had enough time to think about it.
Last but no least : Gojo perception of time is even slower than average sorcerer thanks to his six eye, EVEN if the sparks was a seconde before the slash, it's enough for him to just see it and react to it, I mean bro can literally spawn a 0.2 sec domain and kill dozens of entities in it, do you REALLY think he can't react to the sparks ?
Never said the sparks build up. But making a binding vow and manifesting a technique still require cursed energy and it would be highly doubtable that Gojo couldn't see it thanks to his six eye that PLUS the sparks, it's literally impossible that Gojo wasn't aware that Sukuna was up to something.
And your next point is what make it funny.
in the end we come back to the same "Gojo is arrogant" argument and it's totally true and that's what's funny because it just doesn't make any sense. Gojo shouldn't be arrogant in this situation, and in fact shouldn't even be making such mistakes in the first place. The whole manga is just based on the fact that Gojo is stupid enough to constantly make mistakes and never learn from them, and it's not even the first time he's been fooled by his arrogance, you would think that after Toji he would be more cautious? Nah. After Jogo ? Nah. After Shibuya ? Nah. Bro didn't even kill Sukuna at 15 fingers when he could he literally just went in front of them to flex his jawline and just said "Sukuna, date me in December !" and dip. It's very much in character, but that's borderline an idiot plot.
And even worse, I think this absurdity doesn't start when Gojo doesn't react to Sukuna, who is obviously up to something, but it does start when Gojo doesn't directly finish Sukuna off and prefers to bluster.
"Bro it's so crazy I just purple your ass" okay...So why don't you finish him off and purple his ass again ? Because the manga would end there.
Gojo's teleportation cannot be instantaneous (because nothing can be), but sure, I'll grant that he can teleport faster than the sparks lead to the Dismantle. I'll grant that he saw CE sparks from where Sukuna was standing.
None of that is relevant, because the most important factor is Gojo's arrogance (which you agree with!) Gojo being arrogant may be stupid, but as you yourself say, it's in character. That's ultimately what matters the most. If you truly believe, in your heart of hearts, that an amped up Gojo who has definitively taken the upper hand and believes the only thing that can bypass Infinity is dead would think to dodge an attack, then I guess we just fundamentally disagree.
It seems like you agree that Gojo wouldn't want to dodge, even though you think that it's stupid (I disagree about that but that's personal opinion so whatever). So I think we're on the same page that Gojo wouldn't dodge because of his arrogance?
I do agree because he constantly makes this kind of mistake during the series.
As for the rest, it's more akin to the way Gojo is written, but frankly it deserves another thread, and I don't think the pro-Gojos are ready for that discussion.
Let's just say that Sukuna was smarter.
In fact it looks like Gojo almost went off to fight Sukuna without preparing too much.
Sukuna, on the other hand, had a whole plan he respected the threat posed by gojo, so narratively Gojo only gets what he deserves.
I think the only questionable stuff is how Mahoraga's adaptation could be "learned", like yes Sukuna is a great sorcerer, but would he be able to "learn" Mahoraga's adaptation to UV or Yorozu's liquid metal as well?
But even then...
Gege ALSO gave Gojo one of the most obvious asspull of all time, this is on par w Arbitrary Kaisen.
"RCT can actually heal the CT that suffer from burnout after DE"
This is blatantly introduced so Gojo didn't end up Domain-less, CT-less, and bitchless after the first Domain Clash where Sukuna wins with ease. Gojo would literally die otherwise.
For the first point this was solved by letting maho continue to adapt. Sukuna said that mahos first adaptation was changing the essence of his cursed energy which he cant do (most likely did the same for UV and liquid metal) so he had to wait until maho gave an adaptation applicable to his technique (expanding target)
Yeah, Gojo's ability to heal CT using RCT came out of nowhere, and without it he would have been completely cooked. RCT and Simple Domain can only stall for so long.
I'm not bothered by Gojo having this ability, but the people who complain about Sukuna having similarly broken and random abilities are real quiet about this
Gojo was domain-less, CT-less and bitchless inside Sukuna's domain for a whole chapter. Not only he didn't die he also threw hands with Sukuna while being cut by million slashes.
> 2. "Sukuna needed Mahoraga/10S/Megumi's body to beat Gojo/Gojo beats Heian Sukuna"
Well, you understand that otherwise the WHOLE Megukuna line loses its meaning absolutely. All his interest in Megumi is meaningless. He could have used a completely different body.
And accordingly, everything that happened to Megumi becomes complete nonsense and draining the character. Well, of course, it's can to justify all this with a bad writing, lol
>All his interest in Megumi is meaningless. He could have used a completely different body.
He wanted Megumi body before he knew about Mahoraga, he just needed an host that wouldn't die and couldn't jail him (Yuji)
He was interested in Megumi before he saw Makora though.
He's a guy who loves Jujutsu, he probably thought it would be a really interesting technique to play around with.
Yeah, his interest was purely based on the fact that Megumi had potential. He spends the fight up to that point sizing up Megumi, and is pleasantly surprised by the fact that Megumi is a shikigami user that fights up close rather than hiding behind his summons.
Sukuna’s sole drive is entertainment. He’s like a rich dude bouncing from resort to resort, except his idea of fun is high-power sorcery death-matches.
> Well, you understand that otherwise the WHOLE Megukuna line loses its meaning absolutely. All his interest in Megumi is meaningless. He could have used a completely different body.
Sukuna wanted a new power up, not just win the fight. He was fighting differently to get the Platinum
One of the stupidest battle strategies I've seen. He wasted so many time to get an upgrade only to nerf it in a desperate binding vow because otherwise Gojo would kill him and now this "upgrade" is absolutely useless.
Did he need world slash to kill Gojo? According to Sukuna fans the answer is no.
Did he needed world slash to kill the fodders? No. He would kill them using normal slash with normal output if he didn't get hurt so badly during Gojo fight (something Sukuna could've avoided)
The result is:
Useless nerfed slash
Brain damage and shitty output
Sukuna gained nothing and put himself into position where fodders is a real threat to him
I think that Megumi/10S is the best way to bypass Infinity in the way that Sukuna used it, because it created an attack that lets him cut through Infinity no matter what. That's why he wanted Megumi, because it gave him a way to evolve himself and learn how to cut Infinity. Domain sure-hit and Domain Amplification are temporary solutions which might work against Gojo depending on the situation, but learning from Mahoraga and creating the WCD is a permanent solution.
That's the importance of Megumi to Sukuna in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
I don’t understand how anti gravity system is an asspull. It doesn’t matter which is the reversal, he can use the forward and the reverse no matter what. The only actual “asspull” is him having a gravity technique at all.
It's moreso the fact that "ACKSHUALLY, Kenjaku's gravity power has been the reversal all along! Isn't it convenient that his antigravity lets him escape a black hole?"
I don't actually mind the Antigravity System stuff that much, I just think it's a good example of an asspull in JJK.
Also, I agree that there's no reason he should have Kaori's technique. It's possible we'll find out more about Kenjaku's body hopping technique soon since Yuta has it now, but for now, yeah, it's pretty asspull-y.
Honestly, I would've accepted it if they revealed that Kaori had a CT before.
There are two chances here
1. Kaori didn't had a CT and Kenjaku activated it somehow. Too convenient that it was THAT CT
2. Kaori is a potential Star Plasma Vessel that succesfully ran away and faked her death (how? Sheer luck. I can accept this stroke of luck narratively). This is why she has a Gravity CT akin to Yuki.
But the fact that it is the reversal of a technique all along does not matter. If gravity was the forward use, he would just reverse that and do the exact same thing to survive.
Him having kaori’s technique also isn’t an asspull in it of itself. It is a mystery that tbh we have enough info to make educated guesses on. It just needed to be pop up earlier, maybe have Kenny use it instead of the catfish curse in Shibuya.
None of the fight really involves asspulls at all, everything that happens makes perfect sense within the system Gege made. It just feels cheap because we only learned about Kenjaku having more techniques in this fight.
Your last sentence there hits the nail on the head. It feels cheap because it only comes up this one time where it's useful (just like Higuruma confiscating Kamutoke). These sorts of things are gripes of mine, but aren't enough to take me out of the story in any significant way. You don't have to call them asspulls if you don't want to, but I think that Kenjaku's Antigravity System is at least narratively unsatisfying. To each their own though
A lot of issues I have with recent fights that all the twists can be worded in some version of
"Damn, it sure is a shame that Kenjaku's old technique perfectly counters a black hole."
"Damn, it sure is a shame that Mahoraga can adapt to things in both unique and learnable ways,"
"Damn, it sure is a shame that cursed tools get confiscated over CT."
While I was not fully satisfied with these scenes, I don’t have the same issues as you I believe. Anti gravity system and Kamutoke were clearly planned to do exactly what they did in the story. They just needed to do something besides fill the exact role the story laid out for them and nothing else.
Kamutoke being confiscated is probably the best case for the sorcerers. They can nerf Sukuna’s technique through Yuji’s soul punches. They would not be able to nerf Kamutoke, and would likely be taking serious damage from it. So it being removed is good for the sorcerers, but Sukuna uses it once against the guy who resists it so it doesn’t feel like the win it is.
Same with Anti gravity system, introduce it at the end of Shibuya and it would have felt less like a convenient way for gege to have Kenny beat Yuki. Show us why Kenny would have wanted that technique specifically.
I have no problems with the world slash. Using a binding vow to mimic Majoraga’s adaptation fits perfectly with what Sukuna has been shown to do. And the detail that the first adaptation was something Sukuna couldn’t copy is nice because it gives us some limits on what Sukuna can do with a binding vow.
Your first point is 99% meaningless yap arguing against nobody. I don't think it's an insane asspull that the Six Eyes couldn't perceive what Maki could, but it would've made sense for the Six Eyes and feels silly that despite its purpose, it ultimately ends up only being useful for CE efficiency.
>"His BV wasn't "kill Gojo, but my setup is harder", it was "skip the one requirement once, but now I need all three requirements forever"."
Okay... again, who tf are you arguing against? We ALL know that it wasn't literally "kill Gojo, but my setup is harder" but that is exactly what it equates to since Sukuna only needs this ability to defeat Gojo. It feels bullshit because hardly anyone else is using Binding Vow trades despite Gojo and Yuta having plenty to offer and everyone fighting with the conviction to risk their lives. We also know that Binding Vows do not require experience (Yuta) or skill (Miwa), so the fact that Sukuna is the one creating 90% of the Binding Vows in this arc is bullshit.
>"Let's ignore the fact that Gojo himself believes he would have lost to Sukuna without the 10S"
That is not what he said, and you know it. The two popular translations are "It'd have been damn close even if he didn't have Megumi's shadows" and "I'm not sure if I could've beaten him even if he didn't have Megumi's Ten Shadows". This clearly suggests to the reader that Sukuna is really strong and could have beaten Gojo without 10S, but without 10S, Gojo would have had the upper hand and would have more likely won. I imagine Gege included this comment so that readers couldn't just call Sukuna a fraud for relying on Mahoraga to win while also praising Gojo's strength despite his loss.
Side note, though it isn't an asspull or anything, I think it's very weird and bullshit that Sukuna can even copy the blueprint to slash through the world from Mahoraga in the first place.
The first point isn't meaningless yap against nobody, because I have seen comments where people say verbatim "WCD is an asspull, Gojo should have seen the slashes, etc. etc." It's fine if you haven't seen those comments, but I have.
Again, there are people who say basically "wow Sukuna's BV was to instakill Gojo" when that's simply not the case. The fact that it equated to that is a testament to Sukuna's Jujutsu genius. Sorry if it sounds like glazing, but it's the same type of thing that he did with his Divine Flames; he used a BV to make it ridiculously broken by exchanging basic stats.
Why don't other characters use it? That's a valid criticism, even if I don't really agree with it. I could argue that the danger of BVs is that it may screw up future attacks. For example, if someone else had made Sukuna's WCD BV, they would have locked themselves out of the technique forever (because they'd need 3 arms). We can come up with multiple ways the good guys could have used BVs, but we can also come up with multiple ways Sukuna could counter them using his own BVs. Ultimately, I'm fine if people take issue with the fact that he is abusing them the most, but I personally am not bothered by it, so your mileage may vary. That's why in my post, I only addressed what the BVs were and how they were just stat changes. I was responding to the people who think that you can trade literally anything for ridiculous gains.
You're right that I used a different translation (I think it was the one from the leaks), and I'll edit my post to correct that, but ultimately it's irrelevant because I disregarded the quote when addressing "Gojo would beat Heian Sukuna". I don't quite understand what you wrote after that where you say "This suggests that Sukuna is really strong and could have beaten Gojo without 10S, but without 10S, Gojo would have more likely won". Isn't that a contradiction? Did you mistype something, or am I misunderstanding you.
I agree that ultimately, Gojo and Heian Sukuna are extremely close and I don't know who would win. That part of my post was only to counter those who say "Gojo would have won".
I don't think Sukuna copying Mahoraga is an BS at all. When Mahoraga adapts, it does something (develops a technique, alters its physiology, etc.) to bypass, counter or neutralize the phenomenon. For example, if you threw Mahoraga into the ocean, it could grow gills, create an air bubble, learn to swim, etc. If it learned to swim, you would in theory be able to copy its movements to learn how to swim yourself. That's all Sukuna did. Mahoraga's first adaptation was to alter the essence of its CE, which is literally impossible to replicate. Its second adaptation was to cut space. Sukuna immediately understood what Mahoraga had done (so did Kenjaku), realized that cutting space was possible for him because his CT allows him to cut anything, and figured out how to do it accordingly.
“Fraud” is just a blanket term for all the moments Sukuna was literally saved by the plot. He’s not a fraud because he’s weak, he’s a fraud because he is the author’s pet.
I've tried to show how Sukuna has only been "saved by plot" twice at most: getting Kamutoke confiscated instead of Shrine, and getting saved by Megumi. I've tried to show how all the other potential "saved by plot" moments – WCD, "anti-x technique I haven't used since the Heian Era", and BVs – aren't plot armour at all.
I agree that the Kamutoke one is pure plot armour, except that it also makes sense within the rules of the story that a Cursed Tool is taken away before a Cursed Technique (since a Cursed Technique is confiscated before Cursed Energy). It's narratively unsatisfying, but it still makes sense. And anyway, Sukuna would still have cleaned house with Kamutoke instead of Shrine (although to what extent, we'll never know).
And I've said that Megumi saving Sukuna from Yuji and Yuta is 100% plot armour and *that's the point of that scene in the story*. The point is that Yuji and Yuta did everything right, only to get fucked over by Megumi failing to lock in.
Other than Kamutoke and Megumi, I hope I've shown that Sukuna has kept winning via skill and not plot armour.
I think some people just have an issue whenever sukuna DOES get a copout(ie hana's simp filled bs) he acts like it was all apart of his plan aizen style despite it being damn near impossible for him to even assume/bank on the fact that that outcome could happen.
At least that's my only issue with it
That's totally fair. In fact, something similar happens with Kamutoke where he just sorta brushes it off and keeps going as though he knew it would have protected Shrine from Confiscation
Honestly, the main thing for me is that a lot of the criticisms and responses to the criticism all feel like powerscaling brain rot. Like, yes, the in universe power system allows all these things to be done etc etc. Regardless of if the explanation works in-universe, that doesn't make it necessarily good or narratively fulfilling writing.
That's totally fair, and people can often feel unfulfilled by a plot development even if they understand why it makes sense in-universe. That's completely valid and I wouldn't try to say that they're wrong in any way.
The issue I'm having is that many people aren't saying "it makes sense but I don't like it/it's narratively bad", but "this is bad and here's why" before citing incorrect information. Maybe that's a vocal minority, but I have certain JJK subreddits recommended to me and I see many posts of the latter type.
Actually I have one thing id like to point out with binding vows is, revealing ones hand is itself a binding vow. Which partly break's the "It's not nen trades or the like it's stat reallocation" frame of reference. But you did cook this well done.
He’s not a fraud people are just used to the same shitty hero and villain formula that’s been in shonen the last 20 years get something new ppl don’t know how to act
Just to add on to your point, Malevolent Shrine being open barrier is also due to a binding vow or it is part of a vow.
By allowing an escape route from the domain, the range of the domain is expanded. I had theorised in a comment in another subreddit that the reduction of the range might have let Sukuna replace the boon from that vow with removal of the time limit.
I still hate how my goat got done vs sukuna,.but this is also a fire post so respect. I'm just coping that gojo takes over when yutas CT runs out to go round 2
Very nice post, but there are a couple of things that you're wrong about or not quite exactly right about.
>Oh, the technique that increases gravity is actually an antigravity technique, and we've just been seeing its reversal? That's an asspull, because it comes completely out of nowhere.
I wouldn't call this an asspull, because it doesn't really matter whether the CT is gravity or anti-grav. We already know that CTR reverses what your technique does, so even if it was grav, Kenny could just CTR it and get anti-grav.
Moving onto Heiankuna vs Gojo, I think you're underestimating how big of a boon Mahoraga was. Even when he wasn't being actively used, his existence was always a damper on Gojo's arsenal. He couldn't carelessly use any moves and had to save up stuff like Red to one shot it.
Heiankuna is probably fairly better than Megukuna in CQC, but Gojo will be pulling out Red's and Blue's out of his ass in the Domain Expansion clash without having to fear Raga adapting to everything. Sukuna being late for a Domain clash would also be an instawin for Gojo unlike Megukuna, who can count on Raga to bail him out. While Sukuna was arguably holding back to level up, Gojo was also unconsciously holding back to save Megumi, since he goes for massively crippling Sukuna when he's stunned, as compared to headshotting him.
Megukuna not using Shrine is also a weird nitpick because it's completely useless against Gojo. First time around, he might've been able to use it yeah, but as far as he knows, he has Gojo completely on the ropes, there's no reason to use it.
Even if he did, it's still very likely that Gojo could jump him and delay the activation long enough to regen his CT, which Sukuna would not be taking into consideration due to his lack of knowledge. That would lead to it being a massive waste of CE as Infinity would completely block it. Even if Sukuna somehow magically got it off against a Gojo trying his utmost to stop him, Purple wasn't an instakill against Sukuna and the opposite would probably apply too, even if it'd do massive damage.
Cleave and Dismantle were being used to the utmost within Malevolent Shrine, and would be completely useless outside of it due to Infinity, so would be of no help to either Megukuna or Heiankuna.
Sukuna being able to use the baby rattle for no CE is a weird assumption and probably wrong? But eh, it's an arguable point.
Finally, onto Sukuna's usage of Ten Shadows. Megumi already shows the ability to do Totalities such as Agito by combining the Frog and Nue. His Shadow Clone bullshit in the Domain is arguably partially borrowing Rabbit Escape's stuff.
Sukuna taming Mahoraga isn't that big considering it's a stat check and Sukuna has two whole ass high output techniques to do it. If Yuki, Yuta, Yorozu, Gojo, Geto or Kenjaku had Ten Shadows as an extra technique, they could've done it too.
"Wasn't even using his own technique" makes Gojo look worse, not Sukuna
"Needed to jump him" I'm assuming you mean Mahoraga and Agito? Sukuna literally only needed to stall for Mahoraga to adapt, and Agito did nothing in the fight. And if we're gonna be consistent, Gojo used Utahime, Gakuganji and Ijichi to help him sneak attack Sukuna and it did jack shit
"Teenager's technique" is disingenuous and you know it. Whose technique it is doesn't affect how powerful it is.
And by your logic, wouldn't Gojo losing to a teenager's technique be even worse?
I don't think it makes Gojo look worse btw, I'm just following your reasoning
Also Sukuna without 10S would more than "stand a chance" against Gojo. Idk if he'd win, but he wouldn't get instantly washed like you're suggesting.
Go/jo is kinda a fraud too. He said he win,he called himself the honored one(self proclaimed as opposed to the narrator calling Sukuna the honored one first.),and called himself the strongest,and said he kill Sukuna before he adapted and what did Go/jo do? Lose and get cut and half. Him knowing his students would jump Sukuna after is irrelevant. That world splitting dismantle cut all of Gojos self induced hype down along with his life. A “fraud” that beats someone with that much self hype and talking that much smack makes them a fraud by proxy.
Yes. But buddha was correct. And gojo was qouting him. Buddha literally was the more supreme in terms of virtues and merits not even celestial and supreme beings could compare. He literally then spent 49 days using his power to search the realms for anyone with more merit and virtue to him. It’s not arrogance from the actual Buddha. It’s fact. You are uneducated on Buddha.
I'm just answering a bit because that's a bit too lengthy for me to answer right now.
>I only recently got into JJK, and this is my first Reddit post about it on any subreddit. While the memes and agendaposting on the JJK subreddits are hilarious, the amount of people who genuinely think Sukuna is just winning because his Cursed Technique is "Gege's Favourite" is ridiculous. I've seen so many unironic takes about how "Sukuna would have lost if not for asspull" or how Sukuna is a "Binding Vow Merchant", and I find them almost always wrong or hypocritical. The same type of thing happened with Attack on Titan's ending, with people blatantly misreading or misunderstanding critical information because of agenda, and them blaming the story for apparently being bad, retconned, or asspulled because of their already biased POV.
100% true they are just salty, but it doesn't help when the mods,leakers (mya) and trusted translators (lightning but he is more subtle) are biased.
You should have been there when 236 dropped and they locked r/jujutsufolk and the main sub to prevent the Gojo slander after relaxing the rules to increase the Sukuna slander.
>Sukuna watches Gojo heal his CT and domain with RCT, and then can do it himself.
No, Sukuna didn't learn how to refresh his CT from watching doing it. He knew the drawback of doing it too many times when Gojo didn't (before the "you are painfully ordinary"), and that's something Hakari was also doing casually.
>This is OBVIOUS foreshadowing that he's waiting for Mahoraga to do something. Obviously, it's clearer in hindsight, but putting these two things together, it's evident that Sukuna is waiting for Mahoraga to do something THAT HE CAN COPY. The World Cutting Dismantle therefore has foreshadowing and buildup, making it not an asspull.
True, but a lot of fans only consume simplified leaks because they find it too complicated.
>"Sukuna needed Mahoraga/10S/Megumi's body to beat Gojo/Gojo beats Heian Sukuna"
He never needed it.
Meguna + DA won back to back domain fight and he only got it by UV because he turned off DA to adapt with the WCS as a goal. Heian Sukuna (without hiten and Kamutoke) would win in 4 domain clash at worst with Gojo RCT output being too low or 1 domain clash at worse at best if he instantly used the fire arrow after the first clash.
I'm busy right now so I can't comment on the rest, but I can tell you know your stuff lol.
I was there during the fallout of 236, that's actually how I got into JJK lmao. There's a rule about naming other subreddits on here, so all I'll say is that I am on a subreddit that is generally opposed to the people who very vocally hated AOT's ending, and their posts got recommended to me. By extension, this got the equivalent subreddit for JJK recommended to me as well, and this was in September-October of last year – exactly when Gojo got chopped and Kashimo went in to fight.
I'm glad you're enjoying the post, but since we're on r/CharacterRant, I have to be a bit pedantic lol.
I'm not sure I agree with you when you say Sukuna already knew how to do it. The narrative is kind of vague, but the implication from Angel and others is that now that Gojo has shown it to him, Sukuna can do it. However, I'm fine with him knowing how to do it either way. Also, to whatever extent Hakari can automatically replenish his CT with RCT, it's fully automatic and he has no idea how it works.
However, I'm quite sure you're wrong about Sukuna losing the 5th domain clash because of Mahoraga. Sukuna lost that domain clash to Gojo completely fairly. He lost because he was healing his CT and his body with RCT, whereas Gojo was only healing his CT. The fact that Sukuna was healing both caused his Domain Expansion to lag behind Gojo's for less than 0.01 seconds, and this brief exposure to Infinite Void handicapped him enough for Gojo to beat him in 2 min and 40 seconds instead of 3 min. Mahoraga had nothing to do with his loss, as it was already adapting passively via Megumi.
EDIT: I was partially mistaken about the above paragraph. Sukuna did indeed turn off DA to keep Mahoraga adapting passively, but it wasn't the mere fact that he turned off DA that lost him the domain clash. So you're right that it was indirectly because of Mahoraga that Sukuna lost the 5th domain clash; my explanation was correct except it left out the fact that DA was turned off because of Mahoraga in the first place.
Some things to note
> but the implication from Angel and others is that now that Gojo has shown it to him, Sukuna can do it
That's what angel says in chapter 228. However, in chapter 229 she asks if sukuna has always been able to do it or if he just copied it. In chapter 230 sukuna explains the drawbacks of forcefully recovering your burnt out ct with rct, something that gojo wasn't aware of. This was most likely a way to show that gojo came up with the method on the spot in chapter 226, while sukuna knew about it beforehand. This is in line with sukuna using dismantle on haruta in chapter 119 right after closing his domain
> Also, to whatever extent Hakari can automatically replenish his CT with RCT, it's fully automatic and he has no idea how it works.
Hakari cannot do that (at least never did). He suffers ct burn out throughout the whole duration of the jackpot, which is why he hasn't used his technique at all during jackpot (the subway doors or other preview effects could have been useful), and why he can only open his domain after jackpot ends even though ce isn't a problem.
I wasn't sure if Hakari could do it at all and was just going with it for the sake of argument, so thanks for the clarification.
As for Sukuna, I interpreted it as him understanding on the spot how Gojo healed his CT using RCT (like how he figured out that Mahoraga cut space on the spot) and then concluding that it leads to brain damage if overused. However, you're right that the bit about Haruta makes more sense if Sukuna could do that already. had always considered it odd that he died after Sukuna had already closed Malevolent Shrine, so I guess your explanation of Sukuna knowing it already makes more sense.
>You should have been there when 236 dropped and they locked r/jujutsufolk and the main sub to prevent the Gojo slander
Why are you lying? r/jujutsufolk wasn't locked, only r/jujutsushi was locked and mods did it because people started posting leaks outside of leak thread. Not because people slandered Gojo lol. No one slandered Gojo, not a single living soul. Everyone was slandering Gege.
>after relaxing the rules to increase the Sukuna slander
Why are you lying again? In August r/jujutsushi added new rule "no fraudposting" to stop Sukuna slander.
Also, what the fuck is this Lightning slander? Does he think Lightning is some BNF instead of an official translator (though I guess this doesn't say that much when John Werry exists...)?
You do realise that gojo kept trying domain expansion because he was winning (aka double ko for domains after 3 minutes)? If heian sukuna was stronger (he should be sightly stronger, but the main thing is constant domain amplification, not the extra strength due to 4 arms), gojo would have just stopped after his small domain gets overwhelmed.
Do you actually think that gojo is that much of an idiot to see that his small domain does nothing, but then still try it 3 times? He woudl obviously tweak his domain even more (i don't think he can) or just stop engaging in domain clashes.
Kusakabe and hakari expected gojo to just teleport out of malevolent shrine. That would mean that Sukuna just wastes his ce away by maintaining his domain open. If he closes it he suffers from ct burn out and needs to face gojo in cqc. If he opens a closed barrier domain, gojo can open his own and then there won't be any attacking the barrier from the outside.
I hate this bias view when you allow one character to change their strategy (sukuna in this case), but don't allow the other character to change theirs in response (gojo).
I'm not saying that Gojo wouldn't change his strategy, I'm only responding to the claim that "Sukuna NEEDED Mahoraga to bypass Infinity". Obviously, the fight between them would have gone very differently past the 3rd domain clash if Sukuna didn't have the 10S, and I don't know who'd win. I'm merely pointing out that claims of "Gojo beats Heian Sukuna" aren't adequately supported.
Also, just a minor point, but the added benefit of four arms in H2H combat does matter, because Sukuna held out for 3 min in his Megumi form. Any additional physical buff lets him hold out for > 3 min, meaning that Gojo would definitely lose the 3rd domain clash. What happens afterwards, we'll never know.
Did you miss when i explained that heian sukuna should be slightly stronger than megukuna?
> If heian sukuna was stronger (he should be sightly stronger, but the main thing is constant domain amplification, not the extra strength due to 4 arms)
Anyway, the whole point is that malevolent shrine isn't really a way for heian sukuna to defeat gojo because gojo can just teleport out if heian sukuna is superior to megukuna. The same general logic applies to domain amplification.
Sukuna only had 3 ways to beat gojo. Kill him while he has ct burn out with malevolent shrine, make him suffer brain damage and then kill him with a closed barrier malevolent shrine, use mahoraga. The last two aren't options for heian sukuna as he wouldn't have mahoraga and gojo wouldn't keep spamming domain if he was failing each time.
That just leaves option 1. I haven't seen anything conclusively that would prove that sukuna in any form would be able to kill gojo after the first domain clash. The general argument put forth is that he would use furnance. The problem is that sukuna couldn't use is in the first domain clash as the range of the domain was restricted to increase the sure hit potency. Let's assume that sukuna used the 200m malevolent shrine (which would make gojo's domain last longer but it should still get destroyed). We've seen that the sure hit stops for a few seconds before furnance starts. That time was enough for choso to go all the way from near the edge of the 200m towards yuji and create the blood barrier. Gojo is much faster than choso, so he should be able to run outside the range in that time.
Lastly, I also doubt that furnance would even be able to kill gojo. Its only feats are exorcising an unadapted mahoraga (which gojo thought would be exorcised by a red so it's not a great feat), and killing choso. However, choso was able to completely shield yuji. I doubt that choso's blood barrier is so tough that it would withstand a 200% purple or anything of that caliber, so gojo should be able to tank it.
For your first point, I know you wrote that, but you seemed to focus on DA more than H2H combat, and I was just explaining why I thought H2H was also extremely important.
You're raising very good points, although Gojo couldn't teleport away if Sukuna were touching him using DA (since it neutralizes CTs – however, there would obviously be times when Sukuna isn't touching him so your point is fair).
Divine Flames would cook (literally) Gojo if Infinity was off, but if he still had Infinity, then it wouldn't do anything, so you're right there too.
I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but that also doesn't prove that Gojo would beat Sukuna either, which is my entire point. The criticism/take I'm responding to is "Gojo beats Heian Era Sukuna", which has not been proven. Me disagreeing with that doesn't mean I think "Heian Era Sukuna beats Gojo". Those are separate claims that should be addressed separately, because their fight could end in a stalemate/a battle of attrition, to see who runs out of CE first.
You might be right that Sukuna hasn't shown anything that could kill Gojo, but Gojo also hasn't shown anything that could kill Sukuna. His 200% and 100% Hollow Purples didn't kill him, and Sukuna wouldn't have gotten to such an injured state if he wasn't tanking attacks for Mahoraga to adapt (which he was doing before getting Black Flashed). In short, my whole argument here is that there is no clear winner between Heian Sukuna and Gojo. I think what Gege was trying to convey is that Sukuna won not merely because of Mahoraga, but because he used Mahoraga in a way only he could, which is why he was the better sorcerer (narratively).
Obviously you're free to disagree with me, but I hope that my stance on the winner being undecided is clear, at least.
> you seemed to focus on DA more than H2H combat, and I was just explaining why I thought H2H was also extremely important.
That's because 4 arms are irrelevant in this case. Megukuna just using domain amplification non stop would have been enough to last more than 3 minutes. Adding the boost from 2 extra arms won't make any difference as he woukd already outlast gojo's domain just by using domain amplification.
> although Gojo couldn't teleport away if Sukuna were touching him using DA
I was talking about gojo losing the first domain clash and having ct burn out. To activate furnance, sukuna needs to make the hand motions so he cannot hold gojo at the same time. Also, domain amplification can only nullify infinity, blue and red still work at a lesser output so gojo could still teleport.
> Divine Flames would cook (literally) Gojo if Infinity was off,
This was the same argument used for why gojo would be killed by malevolent shrine's cleave. However, he just tanked them without much issue. We haven't seen anything to prove that furnance is massively stronger, so i doubt that it could kill gojo. Again, choso's blood barrier completely stop furnance, and choso is a character that got one shot by nerf sukuna in chapter 246.
> The criticism/take I'm responding to is "Gojo beats Heian Era Sukuna", which has not been proven
I agree
> because their fight could end in a stalemate/a battle of attrition, to see who runs out of CE first.
Gojo has been stated numerous times to not be able to run out of ce, while sukuna has multiple statements in which he is running out of ce (running is a bit of a misnomer but he has consumed more than half his reserve). There is no question of who runs out.
> Gojo also hasn't shown anything that could kill Sukuna
Yes he has. Gojo cannot run out of ce while sukuna can. Gojo should also have the advantage or be equal in cqc even against heian era sukuna who constantly uses domain amplification, so sukuna's only way of killing gojo would be malevolent shrine (which i explained how gojo can avoid). This means that it would just be a very long battle until sukuna starts to run oit of ce and gets defeated.
> I think what Gege was trying to convey is that Sukuna won not merely because of Mahoraga, but because he used Mahoraga in a way only he could, which is why he was the better sorcerer (narratively).
I agree with the general idea but i would phrase it differently. Sukuna won because of mahoraga, but that doesn't mean that he would lose without it. Even gojo's statement from chapter 236 is purposely left vague. He didn't say conclusively that sukuna would have beaten him anyway, but he also didn't say that he would have conclusively beaten sukuna. It is kept as a it coudl go either way, which is why a debate on who would win can be had
You've made a lot of fair points, so there's not a lot for me to disagree with. I just have a few things I'm not clear on.
You say that if Sukuna had used DA constantly within Unlimited Void, he would have outlasted it – but wasn't he alreading constantly using DA? He only alternated between DA and 10S after the domain clashes, because Mahoraga was already adapting passively via Megumi no? Or have I forgotten something?
You're right that MS sure-hit didn't kill Gojo immediately, but him using RCT to heal through it wasn't sustainable in the long run (as you can run out – which he did until he hit his Black Flashes). However, Divine Flames seems stronger than sure-hit, because Mahoraga adapted to MS sure-hit but was vaporized by DF.
Also, I think Gojo "can't run out of CE" because he's so energy-efficient due to his Six Eyes. That doesn't mean he will literally never run out, just that he can fight pretty much anyone as though he has an unlimited pool. However, Sukuna has way more than any other character, so it's at least possible that Gojo would begin to run into CE problems fighting him. I also think it's worth noting that Sukuna's CE really started to go down the drain because of Yuji's soul punches. Unless I'm misremembering things, Sukuna only started to worry about his low output during his 3v1 against Yuji, Yuta and Rika, implying he didn't expend a lot fighting Gojo, Kashimo, and Higuruma and co.
Despite these minor gripes, I agree with most of what you're saying and I think that we're mostly on the same page. I've seen you post on some JJK subreddits before (and maybe some AOT ones? Your username seems familiar but idk), but in any case I'm glad to have this discussion with you.
"Sukuna won because of Mahoraga, but that doesn't mean he would lose without it." Well said.
> but didn't he? He only alternated between DA and 10S after the domain clashes, because Mahoraga was already adapting passively via Megumi no? Or have I forgotten something?
Sukuna cannot use domain amplification and ten shadows at the same time, that's why the wheel tuens black (as shown in chapter 231). For mahoraga to adapt to megumi's unlimited void damage, megumi needed to be hit by unlimited void (so be in a domain clash), and sukuna needed to not use domain amplification for the ten shadows to be activated. Thus, he needed to switch between domain amplification and the ten shadows during the domain clashes.
Using only ten shadows would make mahoraga adapt faster but sukuna wouldn't have lasted 3 minutes. Using only domain amplification would allows sukuna to last more than 3 minutes, but mahoraga wouldn't adapt at all.
> as you can run out – which he did until he hit his Black Flashes
The reason gojo and sukuna were suddenly no able to use rct (at least fast) was because they both got brain damage, gojo from forcefully healing his brian 5 times, and sukuna from doing the same for 3 times + taking a few seconds of unlimited void. This was explained in chapter 230. Gojo recovered from that by creating a new rct circuit in his brain due to his awakened state by black flash. This was explained in chapter 258.
Just using rct a lot isn't slowing it at all.
> Divine Flames seems stronger than sure-hit, because Mahoraga adapted to MS sure-hit but was vaporized by DF.
Mahoraga would have been killed by cleave as malevolent shrine's sure hit, as stated by the narrator in chapter 119. However, sukuna had adapted to slashing attacking in general in chapter 118, so that was an adapted mahoraga. He hadn't adapted at all to fire attacks, so those exorcised it.
I do agree that furnance is probably stronger though.
> That doesn't mean he will literally never run out, just that he can fight pretty much anyone as though he has an unlimited pool
Yuta stated twice that gojo literally cannot run out of ce. Once in chapter 140 in his introduction and once agin in chapter 226. The one from chapter 226 is especially important, as ino raised the same concern that you did, that gojo just doesn't normally run out of ce but in such a battle he would. However, yuta responded that gojo cannot run out.
> I also think it's worth noting that Sukuna's CE really started to go down the drain because of Yuji's soul punches. Unless I'm misremembering things, Sukuna only started to worry about his low output during his 3v1 against Yuji, Yuta and Rika, implying he didn't expend a lot fighting Gojo, Kashimo, and Higuruma and co.
That's not how it went. Sukuna said that he has the same amount of ce as yuta (who should have around 9 fingers worth of ce) in chapter 250, which was during the beginning of the domain fight. He starts by saying "after my battle with gojo satoru...", attributing his ce reserve drop to the fight with gojo.
Yuji's punches don't affect sukuna's ce levels at all. They only attack the barrier between sukuna's soul and megumi, thus lowering their connection and as a consequence sukuna's control of the body (which lowers the ce output). Sukuna states in the same chapter, 250, that his output is already low due to the battle with gojo
> I've seen you post on some JJK subreddits before (and maybe some AOT ones?
I did actually start out with posting in aot subs 3-4 years ago and then i moved to jjk subs:)).
I see...
Thanks for the corrections! You're completely right that Sukuna had to turn off DA to adapt Mahoraga passively, idk how I didn't realize that to be the case.
As for the other stuff, I guess I overlooked them when reading. The reading comprehension curse gets us all I suppose. Glad you could clear that up for me!
> I guess I overlooked them when reading. The reading comprehension curse gets us all I suppose
That's not really accurate. You said in the post that you only recently got into jjk. This is the problem (not really a problem but core of the issue). As much as people make fun of it, jjk is a pretty hard text to read. It is dense with information and most of the times things are only said once.
I find it hard to believe that there is somebody who can only read it once and get pretty much everything that's said. Therefore, it's not the reading comprehension curse.
The reading comprehension curse appears when somebody clearly doesn't comprehend what's happening. Earlier today i saw somebody writing that they thought ryu is alive even though we see on panel how sukuna clearly splits his head into three. Similarly, there were people asking why sukuna isn't opening his domain when it was clearly explained that he has brain damage and cannot do it. These are the reading comprehension victims, not the people who don't remember particualr details
Reads through it understands it, Agrees with it. What about the agenda?
The memes are funny but Agenda Kaisen might be worse than Sorcery Fight when it comes to reading comprehension
People taking the Agenda memes seriously and making a wall of text to counter argue them is hilarious
Nah, some agenda memes are ironic but many are not. Just go on some of the JJK subreddits and you'll see. It's the same as AOT agenda memes; some are ironic, but lots are not
JJK subs posts are either completely ironic or written by children, there is no middle ground, other day someone was complaining that Sukuna didn't have random asspulls middle fight and was just using the moves he actually showed throughout the story, literally asking for bad writing. If you take those seriously you might go crazy, Sukuna is the best "final boss" we ever had in shounen, Gege knows all the classic complaints and addressed them in the Sukuna fight (Villain not killing anyone, random asspulls instead of using moves shown throughout story, fight being too easy, no planning by the good guys, most characters being irrelevant at the final fight) anyone trying to downplay it is straight up trolling.
W comment I think my experiences with AOT have jaded me lol And despite some issues I have with it, the whole Shinjuku Showdown Arc has been really enjoyable for me and it is imo how a final raid boss should be done. So you're probably right and I'm screaming into the void
AoT is a bit different because it's more about people expectations on a character with no PoV til the very end, and some strange twists (loving Mikasa when he ignored her and dodged a kiss, killing his own mother and it wasnt even explained well) JJK is just too many memes, look at the Heian era one, it was based on people expecting Sukuna to be just like Madara, and then people who weren't up to date with the manga went along like it really happened
the spark argument is dumb. the spark doesnt scream what move they're about to do. even sukuna had to guess what move gojo was going to pull based of his handsign
Sukuna also deduced Gojo was going to use a red from the chanting as well. and Sukuna didn't chant for the WCD against Gojo
And Gojo used Red lol
I think the argument is supposed to be "Gojo should have been ready for something if he saw sparks", which isn't good but is something I guess
Which is silly, because we literally see Gojo lose his arm to WCS just a few chapters before. It's very clear he can't react to it, even at the peak of his concentration.
the chapter before he didn't know what was WCS...
Gojo had no idea that slashes could cut through space at all until after he was literally sliced in half and dying on the floor. And even if Gojo figured out that Mahoraga cut off his arm by cutting space, he had no reason to worry about it after he OBLITERATED Mahoraga with his 100% Hollow Purple. As far as he was concerned, the only thing that could reliably get through Infinity had been reduced to atoms – until he was suddenly cut in half and fatally wounded.
How could he have no reason to think Sukuna could do it if he saw Makora do it and Sukuna using the same sparks? Even worse, Gojo just T pose while Sukuna was manifesting a whole binding vow (going by the position of his body he didn't even moved at all) And let's not even get in the "can't react to it" thing, Gojo can literally teleport he has absolutely no reason to just stand their when Sukuna is preparing something. Also : Gojo can literally recognized a cursed technique just thanks to his six eyes (he just gotta look at the dude and that's it, that's how he recognized Miguel CT if I remember correctly), that's how much OP it is, to be honest it is highly bizarre that someone like him would just stand there doing nothing especially in a fight like this while Sukuna is preparing something and HE KNOWS he's preparing something thanks to the sparks and his six eyes but eh.
I already addressed some of this, but here we go again. There are no "same sparks". The sparks are just cursed energy about to be released as a technique. The sparks ALONE cannot be used to judge anything. In 235, Sukuna figures out Gojo will use a Red based on the intensity of the sparks as well as the handsigns. The best you can say is that Gojo saw that Sukuna was going to do some sort of powerful attack. The sparks don't build up; there isn't a charge up period. There are sparks being released like electricity as the phenomenon manifests into reality. Gojo would just see a spark and then be cut by the Dismantle a second later. Which leads into the next point: why would Gojo think to dodge? Gojo is by far one of the cockiest and most arrogant characters in JJK, and he can back up his trash talk. Gojo has no need to dodge anything because of Infinity. In his mind, only three things can bypass Infinity (in the context of the fight): Domain Expansion, Domain Amplification, and Mahoraga. Sukuna's domain is fried, you can't use DA and a CT, and Mahoraga is gone. Why would Gojo suddenly think (in a split-second btw) "hm, what if Sukuna suddenly can bypass Infinity? Let me move just to be sure". Maybe other sorcerers would instinctively dodge if they saw a spark of CE, but Gojo isn't that kind of guy. And since Dismantles are nearly instantaneous, Gojo wouldn't have very much time to consider a dodge before it hit. BVs made with oneself don't need to be "manifested", as they are just stat changes. Sukuna doesn't need to say anything aloud; he just tweaks his stats as he needs to. He's not making an agreement in his mind, he's recognizing that if he casts a WCD without requirements once, it'll fuck up all his future WCDs. An analogy I've seen elsewhere on Reddit is like someone picking something up that's way heavier than they're used to, and thereby throwing out their back. They've punched above their weight once, but with a cost in the future. If you think that's headcanon, fine, but all of Sukuna's BVs (and Gojo's in his domain) happen basically instantaneously. Also, having just checked 235 to be sure, Gojo has a whole-ass monologue as he walks towards Sukuna. He says the following: "If I don't direct Hollow Purple, it hits me too… but I've suffered less damage. Maybe because it's my own cursed energy. I like these results. Ad libbing Purple at a distance also worked out." Read that aloud and time yourself. Then time yourself as Sukuna, "manifesting" the BV. Which do you think is faster? So even granting your claim about manifesting BVs, Sukuna would still have time.
"The intensity of the sparks" was what I meant by "same sparks" you can judge the nature of a technique thanks to some factors such as the intensity or the incantation or whatever. Going by the intensity itself, Gojo knows that Sukuna is up to something and he knows that it is as powerfull as a cleave or whatever -> And he saw the same intensity when Makora hit him. In fact I shouldn't even talk about the sparks, thanks to his six eyes Gojo should have been able to perceive the slash cuz he can see CE very clearly with it, Maki being able to perceive slash while Gojo can't is absolutely crazy. world cleaves are still part of a technique and come from cursed energy there is NO WAY Gojo don't recognized it the second time. At the very least he should have been a bit cautious and should have known that it is not your average slash who knows, but that's Gojo after all so eh... We don't even know "when" the sparks appear we just now it is "right before" This is important because teleportation is instantaneous. When Sukuna reacted to the sparks he had enough time to think about it. Last but no least : Gojo perception of time is even slower than average sorcerer thanks to his six eye, EVEN if the sparks was a seconde before the slash, it's enough for him to just see it and react to it, I mean bro can literally spawn a 0.2 sec domain and kill dozens of entities in it, do you REALLY think he can't react to the sparks ? Never said the sparks build up. But making a binding vow and manifesting a technique still require cursed energy and it would be highly doubtable that Gojo couldn't see it thanks to his six eye that PLUS the sparks, it's literally impossible that Gojo wasn't aware that Sukuna was up to something. And your next point is what make it funny. in the end we come back to the same "Gojo is arrogant" argument and it's totally true and that's what's funny because it just doesn't make any sense. Gojo shouldn't be arrogant in this situation, and in fact shouldn't even be making such mistakes in the first place. The whole manga is just based on the fact that Gojo is stupid enough to constantly make mistakes and never learn from them, and it's not even the first time he's been fooled by his arrogance, you would think that after Toji he would be more cautious? Nah. After Jogo ? Nah. After Shibuya ? Nah. Bro didn't even kill Sukuna at 15 fingers when he could he literally just went in front of them to flex his jawline and just said "Sukuna, date me in December !" and dip. It's very much in character, but that's borderline an idiot plot. And even worse, I think this absurdity doesn't start when Gojo doesn't react to Sukuna, who is obviously up to something, but it does start when Gojo doesn't directly finish Sukuna off and prefers to bluster. "Bro it's so crazy I just purple your ass" okay...So why don't you finish him off and purple his ass again ? Because the manga would end there.
Gojo's teleportation cannot be instantaneous (because nothing can be), but sure, I'll grant that he can teleport faster than the sparks lead to the Dismantle. I'll grant that he saw CE sparks from where Sukuna was standing. None of that is relevant, because the most important factor is Gojo's arrogance (which you agree with!) Gojo being arrogant may be stupid, but as you yourself say, it's in character. That's ultimately what matters the most. If you truly believe, in your heart of hearts, that an amped up Gojo who has definitively taken the upper hand and believes the only thing that can bypass Infinity is dead would think to dodge an attack, then I guess we just fundamentally disagree. It seems like you agree that Gojo wouldn't want to dodge, even though you think that it's stupid (I disagree about that but that's personal opinion so whatever). So I think we're on the same page that Gojo wouldn't dodge because of his arrogance?
I do agree because he constantly makes this kind of mistake during the series. As for the rest, it's more akin to the way Gojo is written, but frankly it deserves another thread, and I don't think the pro-Gojos are ready for that discussion. Let's just say that Sukuna was smarter. In fact it looks like Gojo almost went off to fight Sukuna without preparing too much. Sukuna, on the other hand, had a whole plan he respected the threat posed by gojo, so narratively Gojo only gets what he deserves.
I think the only questionable stuff is how Mahoraga's adaptation could be "learned", like yes Sukuna is a great sorcerer, but would he be able to "learn" Mahoraga's adaptation to UV or Yorozu's liquid metal as well? But even then... Gege ALSO gave Gojo one of the most obvious asspull of all time, this is on par w Arbitrary Kaisen. "RCT can actually heal the CT that suffer from burnout after DE" This is blatantly introduced so Gojo didn't end up Domain-less, CT-less, and bitchless after the first Domain Clash where Sukuna wins with ease. Gojo would literally die otherwise.
For the first point this was solved by letting maho continue to adapt. Sukuna said that mahos first adaptation was changing the essence of his cursed energy which he cant do (most likely did the same for UV and liquid metal) so he had to wait until maho gave an adaptation applicable to his technique (expanding target)
Makes sense
Yeah, Gojo's ability to heal CT using RCT came out of nowhere, and without it he would have been completely cooked. RCT and Simple Domain can only stall for so long. I'm not bothered by Gojo having this ability, but the people who complain about Sukuna having similarly broken and random abilities are real quiet about this
Gojo was said to be able to use multiple domains so we know he could do it just not how
Gojo was domain-less, CT-less and bitchless inside Sukuna's domain for a whole chapter. Not only he didn't die he also threw hands with Sukuna while being cut by million slashes.
Do you genuinely think he can hold out for long without regaining his CT (literally his gameplan in that same chapter)???
> 2. "Sukuna needed Mahoraga/10S/Megumi's body to beat Gojo/Gojo beats Heian Sukuna" Well, you understand that otherwise the WHOLE Megukuna line loses its meaning absolutely. All his interest in Megumi is meaningless. He could have used a completely different body. And accordingly, everything that happened to Megumi becomes complete nonsense and draining the character. Well, of course, it's can to justify all this with a bad writing, lol
>All his interest in Megumi is meaningless. He could have used a completely different body. He wanted Megumi body before he knew about Mahoraga, he just needed an host that wouldn't die and couldn't jail him (Yuji)
He was interested in Megumi before he saw Makora though. He's a guy who loves Jujutsu, he probably thought it would be a really interesting technique to play around with.
Yeah, his interest was purely based on the fact that Megumi had potential. He spends the fight up to that point sizing up Megumi, and is pleasantly surprised by the fact that Megumi is a shikigami user that fights up close rather than hiding behind his summons. Sukuna’s sole drive is entertainment. He’s like a rich dude bouncing from resort to resort, except his idea of fun is high-power sorcery death-matches.
> Well, you understand that otherwise the WHOLE Megukuna line loses its meaning absolutely. All his interest in Megumi is meaningless. He could have used a completely different body. Sukuna wanted a new power up, not just win the fight. He was fighting differently to get the Platinum
One of the stupidest battle strategies I've seen. He wasted so many time to get an upgrade only to nerf it in a desperate binding vow because otherwise Gojo would kill him and now this "upgrade" is absolutely useless. Did he need world slash to kill Gojo? According to Sukuna fans the answer is no. Did he needed world slash to kill the fodders? No. He would kill them using normal slash with normal output if he didn't get hurt so badly during Gojo fight (something Sukuna could've avoided) The result is: Useless nerfed slash Brain damage and shitty output Sukuna gained nothing and put himself into position where fodders is a real threat to him
> Sukuna gained nothing and put himself into position where fodders is a real threat to him" Congratulations. This is exactly what the narrator said.
I think that Megumi/10S is the best way to bypass Infinity in the way that Sukuna used it, because it created an attack that lets him cut through Infinity no matter what. That's why he wanted Megumi, because it gave him a way to evolve himself and learn how to cut Infinity. Domain sure-hit and Domain Amplification are temporary solutions which might work against Gojo depending on the situation, but learning from Mahoraga and creating the WCD is a permanent solution. That's the importance of Megumi to Sukuna in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
Great post. Won't change anything, but great post anyway.
Thanks. Sometimes we can't change the cruel world, but we keep fighting anyway o7
I don’t understand how anti gravity system is an asspull. It doesn’t matter which is the reversal, he can use the forward and the reverse no matter what. The only actual “asspull” is him having a gravity technique at all.
It's moreso the fact that "ACKSHUALLY, Kenjaku's gravity power has been the reversal all along! Isn't it convenient that his antigravity lets him escape a black hole?" I don't actually mind the Antigravity System stuff that much, I just think it's a good example of an asspull in JJK. Also, I agree that there's no reason he should have Kaori's technique. It's possible we'll find out more about Kenjaku's body hopping technique soon since Yuta has it now, but for now, yeah, it's pretty asspull-y.
Honestly, I would've accepted it if they revealed that Kaori had a CT before. There are two chances here 1. Kaori didn't had a CT and Kenjaku activated it somehow. Too convenient that it was THAT CT 2. Kaori is a potential Star Plasma Vessel that succesfully ran away and faked her death (how? Sheer luck. I can accept this stroke of luck narratively). This is why she has a Gravity CT akin to Yuki.
But the fact that it is the reversal of a technique all along does not matter. If gravity was the forward use, he would just reverse that and do the exact same thing to survive. Him having kaori’s technique also isn’t an asspull in it of itself. It is a mystery that tbh we have enough info to make educated guesses on. It just needed to be pop up earlier, maybe have Kenny use it instead of the catfish curse in Shibuya. None of the fight really involves asspulls at all, everything that happens makes perfect sense within the system Gege made. It just feels cheap because we only learned about Kenjaku having more techniques in this fight.
Your last sentence there hits the nail on the head. It feels cheap because it only comes up this one time where it's useful (just like Higuruma confiscating Kamutoke). These sorts of things are gripes of mine, but aren't enough to take me out of the story in any significant way. You don't have to call them asspulls if you don't want to, but I think that Kenjaku's Antigravity System is at least narratively unsatisfying. To each their own though
A lot of issues I have with recent fights that all the twists can be worded in some version of "Damn, it sure is a shame that Kenjaku's old technique perfectly counters a black hole." "Damn, it sure is a shame that Mahoraga can adapt to things in both unique and learnable ways," "Damn, it sure is a shame that cursed tools get confiscated over CT."
While I was not fully satisfied with these scenes, I don’t have the same issues as you I believe. Anti gravity system and Kamutoke were clearly planned to do exactly what they did in the story. They just needed to do something besides fill the exact role the story laid out for them and nothing else. Kamutoke being confiscated is probably the best case for the sorcerers. They can nerf Sukuna’s technique through Yuji’s soul punches. They would not be able to nerf Kamutoke, and would likely be taking serious damage from it. So it being removed is good for the sorcerers, but Sukuna uses it once against the guy who resists it so it doesn’t feel like the win it is. Same with Anti gravity system, introduce it at the end of Shibuya and it would have felt less like a convenient way for gege to have Kenny beat Yuki. Show us why Kenny would have wanted that technique specifically. I have no problems with the world slash. Using a binding vow to mimic Majoraga’s adaptation fits perfectly with what Sukuna has been shown to do. And the detail that the first adaptation was something Sukuna couldn’t copy is nice because it gives us some limits on what Sukuna can do with a binding vow.
Your first point is 99% meaningless yap arguing against nobody. I don't think it's an insane asspull that the Six Eyes couldn't perceive what Maki could, but it would've made sense for the Six Eyes and feels silly that despite its purpose, it ultimately ends up only being useful for CE efficiency. >"His BV wasn't "kill Gojo, but my setup is harder", it was "skip the one requirement once, but now I need all three requirements forever"." Okay... again, who tf are you arguing against? We ALL know that it wasn't literally "kill Gojo, but my setup is harder" but that is exactly what it equates to since Sukuna only needs this ability to defeat Gojo. It feels bullshit because hardly anyone else is using Binding Vow trades despite Gojo and Yuta having plenty to offer and everyone fighting with the conviction to risk their lives. We also know that Binding Vows do not require experience (Yuta) or skill (Miwa), so the fact that Sukuna is the one creating 90% of the Binding Vows in this arc is bullshit. >"Let's ignore the fact that Gojo himself believes he would have lost to Sukuna without the 10S" That is not what he said, and you know it. The two popular translations are "It'd have been damn close even if he didn't have Megumi's shadows" and "I'm not sure if I could've beaten him even if he didn't have Megumi's Ten Shadows". This clearly suggests to the reader that Sukuna is really strong and could have beaten Gojo without 10S, but without 10S, Gojo would have had the upper hand and would have more likely won. I imagine Gege included this comment so that readers couldn't just call Sukuna a fraud for relying on Mahoraga to win while also praising Gojo's strength despite his loss. Side note, though it isn't an asspull or anything, I think it's very weird and bullshit that Sukuna can even copy the blueprint to slash through the world from Mahoraga in the first place.
The first point isn't meaningless yap against nobody, because I have seen comments where people say verbatim "WCD is an asspull, Gojo should have seen the slashes, etc. etc." It's fine if you haven't seen those comments, but I have. Again, there are people who say basically "wow Sukuna's BV was to instakill Gojo" when that's simply not the case. The fact that it equated to that is a testament to Sukuna's Jujutsu genius. Sorry if it sounds like glazing, but it's the same type of thing that he did with his Divine Flames; he used a BV to make it ridiculously broken by exchanging basic stats. Why don't other characters use it? That's a valid criticism, even if I don't really agree with it. I could argue that the danger of BVs is that it may screw up future attacks. For example, if someone else had made Sukuna's WCD BV, they would have locked themselves out of the technique forever (because they'd need 3 arms). We can come up with multiple ways the good guys could have used BVs, but we can also come up with multiple ways Sukuna could counter them using his own BVs. Ultimately, I'm fine if people take issue with the fact that he is abusing them the most, but I personally am not bothered by it, so your mileage may vary. That's why in my post, I only addressed what the BVs were and how they were just stat changes. I was responding to the people who think that you can trade literally anything for ridiculous gains. You're right that I used a different translation (I think it was the one from the leaks), and I'll edit my post to correct that, but ultimately it's irrelevant because I disregarded the quote when addressing "Gojo would beat Heian Sukuna". I don't quite understand what you wrote after that where you say "This suggests that Sukuna is really strong and could have beaten Gojo without 10S, but without 10S, Gojo would have more likely won". Isn't that a contradiction? Did you mistype something, or am I misunderstanding you. I agree that ultimately, Gojo and Heian Sukuna are extremely close and I don't know who would win. That part of my post was only to counter those who say "Gojo would have won". I don't think Sukuna copying Mahoraga is an BS at all. When Mahoraga adapts, it does something (develops a technique, alters its physiology, etc.) to bypass, counter or neutralize the phenomenon. For example, if you threw Mahoraga into the ocean, it could grow gills, create an air bubble, learn to swim, etc. If it learned to swim, you would in theory be able to copy its movements to learn how to swim yourself. That's all Sukuna did. Mahoraga's first adaptation was to alter the essence of its CE, which is literally impossible to replicate. Its second adaptation was to cut space. Sukuna immediately understood what Mahoraga had done (so did Kenjaku), realized that cutting space was possible for him because his CT allows him to cut anything, and figured out how to do it accordingly.
“Fraud” is just a blanket term for all the moments Sukuna was literally saved by the plot. He’s not a fraud because he’s weak, he’s a fraud because he is the author’s pet.
Except for higurama when was he even saved by plot .
I've tried to show how Sukuna has only been "saved by plot" twice at most: getting Kamutoke confiscated instead of Shrine, and getting saved by Megumi. I've tried to show how all the other potential "saved by plot" moments – WCD, "anti-x technique I haven't used since the Heian Era", and BVs – aren't plot armour at all. I agree that the Kamutoke one is pure plot armour, except that it also makes sense within the rules of the story that a Cursed Tool is taken away before a Cursed Technique (since a Cursed Technique is confiscated before Cursed Energy). It's narratively unsatisfying, but it still makes sense. And anyway, Sukuna would still have cleaned house with Kamutoke instead of Shrine (although to what extent, we'll never know). And I've said that Megumi saving Sukuna from Yuji and Yuta is 100% plot armour and *that's the point of that scene in the story*. The point is that Yuji and Yuta did everything right, only to get fucked over by Megumi failing to lock in. Other than Kamutoke and Megumi, I hope I've shown that Sukuna has kept winning via skill and not plot armour.
I think some people just have an issue whenever sukuna DOES get a copout(ie hana's simp filled bs) he acts like it was all apart of his plan aizen style despite it being damn near impossible for him to even assume/bank on the fact that that outcome could happen. At least that's my only issue with it
That's totally fair. In fact, something similar happens with Kamutoke where he just sorta brushes it off and keeps going as though he knew it would have protected Shrine from Confiscation
I see your agenda and raise you an equally valid argument: *he is, though*.
Honestly, the main thing for me is that a lot of the criticisms and responses to the criticism all feel like powerscaling brain rot. Like, yes, the in universe power system allows all these things to be done etc etc. Regardless of if the explanation works in-universe, that doesn't make it necessarily good or narratively fulfilling writing.
That's totally fair, and people can often feel unfulfilled by a plot development even if they understand why it makes sense in-universe. That's completely valid and I wouldn't try to say that they're wrong in any way. The issue I'm having is that many people aren't saying "it makes sense but I don't like it/it's narratively bad", but "this is bad and here's why" before citing incorrect information. Maybe that's a vocal minority, but I have certain JJK subreddits recommended to me and I see many posts of the latter type.
Actually I have one thing id like to point out with binding vows is, revealing ones hand is itself a binding vow. Which partly break's the "It's not nen trades or the like it's stat reallocation" frame of reference. But you did cook this well done.
Completely fair point
No, Sukuna is a fraud. He's Gege's #1 cocksucker.
He’s not a fraud people are just used to the same shitty hero and villain formula that’s been in shonen the last 20 years get something new ppl don’t know how to act
Just to add on to your point, Malevolent Shrine being open barrier is also due to a binding vow or it is part of a vow. By allowing an escape route from the domain, the range of the domain is expanded. I had theorised in a comment in another subreddit that the reduction of the range might have let Sukuna replace the boon from that vow with removal of the time limit.
I still hate how my goat got done vs sukuna,.but this is also a fire post so respect. I'm just coping that gojo takes over when yutas CT runs out to go round 2
Uruame account spotted.
Very nice post, but there are a couple of things that you're wrong about or not quite exactly right about. >Oh, the technique that increases gravity is actually an antigravity technique, and we've just been seeing its reversal? That's an asspull, because it comes completely out of nowhere. I wouldn't call this an asspull, because it doesn't really matter whether the CT is gravity or anti-grav. We already know that CTR reverses what your technique does, so even if it was grav, Kenny could just CTR it and get anti-grav. Moving onto Heiankuna vs Gojo, I think you're underestimating how big of a boon Mahoraga was. Even when he wasn't being actively used, his existence was always a damper on Gojo's arsenal. He couldn't carelessly use any moves and had to save up stuff like Red to one shot it. Heiankuna is probably fairly better than Megukuna in CQC, but Gojo will be pulling out Red's and Blue's out of his ass in the Domain Expansion clash without having to fear Raga adapting to everything. Sukuna being late for a Domain clash would also be an instawin for Gojo unlike Megukuna, who can count on Raga to bail him out. While Sukuna was arguably holding back to level up, Gojo was also unconsciously holding back to save Megumi, since he goes for massively crippling Sukuna when he's stunned, as compared to headshotting him. Megukuna not using Shrine is also a weird nitpick because it's completely useless against Gojo. First time around, he might've been able to use it yeah, but as far as he knows, he has Gojo completely on the ropes, there's no reason to use it. Even if he did, it's still very likely that Gojo could jump him and delay the activation long enough to regen his CT, which Sukuna would not be taking into consideration due to his lack of knowledge. That would lead to it being a massive waste of CE as Infinity would completely block it. Even if Sukuna somehow magically got it off against a Gojo trying his utmost to stop him, Purple wasn't an instakill against Sukuna and the opposite would probably apply too, even if it'd do massive damage. Cleave and Dismantle were being used to the utmost within Malevolent Shrine, and would be completely useless outside of it due to Infinity, so would be of no help to either Megukuna or Heiankuna. Sukuna being able to use the baby rattle for no CE is a weird assumption and probably wrong? But eh, it's an arguable point. Finally, onto Sukuna's usage of Ten Shadows. Megumi already shows the ability to do Totalities such as Agito by combining the Frog and Nue. His Shadow Clone bullshit in the Domain is arguably partially borrowing Rabbit Escape's stuff. Sukuna taming Mahoraga isn't that big considering it's a stat check and Sukuna has two whole ass high output techniques to do it. If Yuki, Yuta, Yorozu, Gojo, Geto or Kenjaku had Ten Shadows as an extra technique, they could've done it too.
Careful, I made a post just yesterday defending Sukuna and it was deleted by the mods without any reasoning. I think they're Gojo fans.
Nah, he needed to jump gojo to even stand a chance and wasnt even using his own technique for that. Truly the king of frauds, gojo still number one.
"Wasn't even using his own technique" makes Gojo look worse, not Sukuna "Needed to jump him" I'm assuming you mean Mahoraga and Agito? Sukuna literally only needed to stall for Mahoraga to adapt, and Agito did nothing in the fight. And if we're gonna be consistent, Gojo used Utahime, Gakuganji and Ijichi to help him sneak attack Sukuna and it did jack shit
Yeah, needing to borrow a teenanger technique to even stand a chance on the fight surely makes gojo looks worse, yeah alright mate
"Teenager's technique" is disingenuous and you know it. Whose technique it is doesn't affect how powerful it is. And by your logic, wouldn't Gojo losing to a teenager's technique be even worse? I don't think it makes Gojo look worse btw, I'm just following your reasoning Also Sukuna without 10S would more than "stand a chance" against Gojo. Idk if he'd win, but he wouldn't get instantly washed like you're suggesting.
Go/jo is kinda a fraud too. He said he win,he called himself the honored one(self proclaimed as opposed to the narrator calling Sukuna the honored one first.),and called himself the strongest,and said he kill Sukuna before he adapted and what did Go/jo do? Lose and get cut and half. Him knowing his students would jump Sukuna after is irrelevant. That world splitting dismantle cut all of Gojos self induced hype down along with his life. A “fraud” that beats someone with that much self hype and talking that much smack makes them a fraud by proxy.
Buddha was self proclaimed honored one
Yes. But buddha was correct. And gojo was qouting him. Buddha literally was the more supreme in terms of virtues and merits not even celestial and supreme beings could compare. He literally then spent 49 days using his power to search the realms for anyone with more merit and virtue to him. It’s not arrogance from the actual Buddha. It’s fact. You are uneducated on Buddha.
I'm just answering a bit because that's a bit too lengthy for me to answer right now. >I only recently got into JJK, and this is my first Reddit post about it on any subreddit. While the memes and agendaposting on the JJK subreddits are hilarious, the amount of people who genuinely think Sukuna is just winning because his Cursed Technique is "Gege's Favourite" is ridiculous. I've seen so many unironic takes about how "Sukuna would have lost if not for asspull" or how Sukuna is a "Binding Vow Merchant", and I find them almost always wrong or hypocritical. The same type of thing happened with Attack on Titan's ending, with people blatantly misreading or misunderstanding critical information because of agenda, and them blaming the story for apparently being bad, retconned, or asspulled because of their already biased POV. 100% true they are just salty, but it doesn't help when the mods,leakers (mya) and trusted translators (lightning but he is more subtle) are biased. You should have been there when 236 dropped and they locked r/jujutsufolk and the main sub to prevent the Gojo slander after relaxing the rules to increase the Sukuna slander. >Sukuna watches Gojo heal his CT and domain with RCT, and then can do it himself. No, Sukuna didn't learn how to refresh his CT from watching doing it. He knew the drawback of doing it too many times when Gojo didn't (before the "you are painfully ordinary"), and that's something Hakari was also doing casually. >This is OBVIOUS foreshadowing that he's waiting for Mahoraga to do something. Obviously, it's clearer in hindsight, but putting these two things together, it's evident that Sukuna is waiting for Mahoraga to do something THAT HE CAN COPY. The World Cutting Dismantle therefore has foreshadowing and buildup, making it not an asspull. True, but a lot of fans only consume simplified leaks because they find it too complicated. >"Sukuna needed Mahoraga/10S/Megumi's body to beat Gojo/Gojo beats Heian Sukuna" He never needed it. Meguna + DA won back to back domain fight and he only got it by UV because he turned off DA to adapt with the WCS as a goal. Heian Sukuna (without hiten and Kamutoke) would win in 4 domain clash at worst with Gojo RCT output being too low or 1 domain clash at worse at best if he instantly used the fire arrow after the first clash. I'm busy right now so I can't comment on the rest, but I can tell you know your stuff lol.
I was there during the fallout of 236, that's actually how I got into JJK lmao. There's a rule about naming other subreddits on here, so all I'll say is that I am on a subreddit that is generally opposed to the people who very vocally hated AOT's ending, and their posts got recommended to me. By extension, this got the equivalent subreddit for JJK recommended to me as well, and this was in September-October of last year – exactly when Gojo got chopped and Kashimo went in to fight. I'm glad you're enjoying the post, but since we're on r/CharacterRant, I have to be a bit pedantic lol. I'm not sure I agree with you when you say Sukuna already knew how to do it. The narrative is kind of vague, but the implication from Angel and others is that now that Gojo has shown it to him, Sukuna can do it. However, I'm fine with him knowing how to do it either way. Also, to whatever extent Hakari can automatically replenish his CT with RCT, it's fully automatic and he has no idea how it works. However, I'm quite sure you're wrong about Sukuna losing the 5th domain clash because of Mahoraga. Sukuna lost that domain clash to Gojo completely fairly. He lost because he was healing his CT and his body with RCT, whereas Gojo was only healing his CT. The fact that Sukuna was healing both caused his Domain Expansion to lag behind Gojo's for less than 0.01 seconds, and this brief exposure to Infinite Void handicapped him enough for Gojo to beat him in 2 min and 40 seconds instead of 3 min. Mahoraga had nothing to do with his loss, as it was already adapting passively via Megumi. EDIT: I was partially mistaken about the above paragraph. Sukuna did indeed turn off DA to keep Mahoraga adapting passively, but it wasn't the mere fact that he turned off DA that lost him the domain clash. So you're right that it was indirectly because of Mahoraga that Sukuna lost the 5th domain clash; my explanation was correct except it left out the fact that DA was turned off because of Mahoraga in the first place.
Some things to note > but the implication from Angel and others is that now that Gojo has shown it to him, Sukuna can do it That's what angel says in chapter 228. However, in chapter 229 she asks if sukuna has always been able to do it or if he just copied it. In chapter 230 sukuna explains the drawbacks of forcefully recovering your burnt out ct with rct, something that gojo wasn't aware of. This was most likely a way to show that gojo came up with the method on the spot in chapter 226, while sukuna knew about it beforehand. This is in line with sukuna using dismantle on haruta in chapter 119 right after closing his domain > Also, to whatever extent Hakari can automatically replenish his CT with RCT, it's fully automatic and he has no idea how it works. Hakari cannot do that (at least never did). He suffers ct burn out throughout the whole duration of the jackpot, which is why he hasn't used his technique at all during jackpot (the subway doors or other preview effects could have been useful), and why he can only open his domain after jackpot ends even though ce isn't a problem.
I wasn't sure if Hakari could do it at all and was just going with it for the sake of argument, so thanks for the clarification. As for Sukuna, I interpreted it as him understanding on the spot how Gojo healed his CT using RCT (like how he figured out that Mahoraga cut space on the spot) and then concluding that it leads to brain damage if overused. However, you're right that the bit about Haruta makes more sense if Sukuna could do that already. had always considered it odd that he died after Sukuna had already closed Malevolent Shrine, so I guess your explanation of Sukuna knowing it already makes more sense.
>You should have been there when 236 dropped and they locked r/jujutsufolk and the main sub to prevent the Gojo slander Why are you lying? r/jujutsufolk wasn't locked, only r/jujutsushi was locked and mods did it because people started posting leaks outside of leak thread. Not because people slandered Gojo lol. No one slandered Gojo, not a single living soul. Everyone was slandering Gege. >after relaxing the rules to increase the Sukuna slander Why are you lying again? In August r/jujutsushi added new rule "no fraudposting" to stop Sukuna slander.
Also, what the fuck is this Lightning slander? Does he think Lightning is some BNF instead of an official translator (though I guess this doesn't say that much when John Werry exists...)?
You do realise that gojo kept trying domain expansion because he was winning (aka double ko for domains after 3 minutes)? If heian sukuna was stronger (he should be sightly stronger, but the main thing is constant domain amplification, not the extra strength due to 4 arms), gojo would have just stopped after his small domain gets overwhelmed. Do you actually think that gojo is that much of an idiot to see that his small domain does nothing, but then still try it 3 times? He woudl obviously tweak his domain even more (i don't think he can) or just stop engaging in domain clashes. Kusakabe and hakari expected gojo to just teleport out of malevolent shrine. That would mean that Sukuna just wastes his ce away by maintaining his domain open. If he closes it he suffers from ct burn out and needs to face gojo in cqc. If he opens a closed barrier domain, gojo can open his own and then there won't be any attacking the barrier from the outside. I hate this bias view when you allow one character to change their strategy (sukuna in this case), but don't allow the other character to change theirs in response (gojo).
I'm not saying that Gojo wouldn't change his strategy, I'm only responding to the claim that "Sukuna NEEDED Mahoraga to bypass Infinity". Obviously, the fight between them would have gone very differently past the 3rd domain clash if Sukuna didn't have the 10S, and I don't know who'd win. I'm merely pointing out that claims of "Gojo beats Heian Sukuna" aren't adequately supported. Also, just a minor point, but the added benefit of four arms in H2H combat does matter, because Sukuna held out for 3 min in his Megumi form. Any additional physical buff lets him hold out for > 3 min, meaning that Gojo would definitely lose the 3rd domain clash. What happens afterwards, we'll never know.
Did you miss when i explained that heian sukuna should be slightly stronger than megukuna? > If heian sukuna was stronger (he should be sightly stronger, but the main thing is constant domain amplification, not the extra strength due to 4 arms) Anyway, the whole point is that malevolent shrine isn't really a way for heian sukuna to defeat gojo because gojo can just teleport out if heian sukuna is superior to megukuna. The same general logic applies to domain amplification. Sukuna only had 3 ways to beat gojo. Kill him while he has ct burn out with malevolent shrine, make him suffer brain damage and then kill him with a closed barrier malevolent shrine, use mahoraga. The last two aren't options for heian sukuna as he wouldn't have mahoraga and gojo wouldn't keep spamming domain if he was failing each time. That just leaves option 1. I haven't seen anything conclusively that would prove that sukuna in any form would be able to kill gojo after the first domain clash. The general argument put forth is that he would use furnance. The problem is that sukuna couldn't use is in the first domain clash as the range of the domain was restricted to increase the sure hit potency. Let's assume that sukuna used the 200m malevolent shrine (which would make gojo's domain last longer but it should still get destroyed). We've seen that the sure hit stops for a few seconds before furnance starts. That time was enough for choso to go all the way from near the edge of the 200m towards yuji and create the blood barrier. Gojo is much faster than choso, so he should be able to run outside the range in that time. Lastly, I also doubt that furnance would even be able to kill gojo. Its only feats are exorcising an unadapted mahoraga (which gojo thought would be exorcised by a red so it's not a great feat), and killing choso. However, choso was able to completely shield yuji. I doubt that choso's blood barrier is so tough that it would withstand a 200% purple or anything of that caliber, so gojo should be able to tank it.
For your first point, I know you wrote that, but you seemed to focus on DA more than H2H combat, and I was just explaining why I thought H2H was also extremely important. You're raising very good points, although Gojo couldn't teleport away if Sukuna were touching him using DA (since it neutralizes CTs – however, there would obviously be times when Sukuna isn't touching him so your point is fair). Divine Flames would cook (literally) Gojo if Infinity was off, but if he still had Infinity, then it wouldn't do anything, so you're right there too. I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but that also doesn't prove that Gojo would beat Sukuna either, which is my entire point. The criticism/take I'm responding to is "Gojo beats Heian Era Sukuna", which has not been proven. Me disagreeing with that doesn't mean I think "Heian Era Sukuna beats Gojo". Those are separate claims that should be addressed separately, because their fight could end in a stalemate/a battle of attrition, to see who runs out of CE first. You might be right that Sukuna hasn't shown anything that could kill Gojo, but Gojo also hasn't shown anything that could kill Sukuna. His 200% and 100% Hollow Purples didn't kill him, and Sukuna wouldn't have gotten to such an injured state if he wasn't tanking attacks for Mahoraga to adapt (which he was doing before getting Black Flashed). In short, my whole argument here is that there is no clear winner between Heian Sukuna and Gojo. I think what Gege was trying to convey is that Sukuna won not merely because of Mahoraga, but because he used Mahoraga in a way only he could, which is why he was the better sorcerer (narratively). Obviously you're free to disagree with me, but I hope that my stance on the winner being undecided is clear, at least.
> you seemed to focus on DA more than H2H combat, and I was just explaining why I thought H2H was also extremely important. That's because 4 arms are irrelevant in this case. Megukuna just using domain amplification non stop would have been enough to last more than 3 minutes. Adding the boost from 2 extra arms won't make any difference as he woukd already outlast gojo's domain just by using domain amplification. > although Gojo couldn't teleport away if Sukuna were touching him using DA I was talking about gojo losing the first domain clash and having ct burn out. To activate furnance, sukuna needs to make the hand motions so he cannot hold gojo at the same time. Also, domain amplification can only nullify infinity, blue and red still work at a lesser output so gojo could still teleport. > Divine Flames would cook (literally) Gojo if Infinity was off, This was the same argument used for why gojo would be killed by malevolent shrine's cleave. However, he just tanked them without much issue. We haven't seen anything to prove that furnance is massively stronger, so i doubt that it could kill gojo. Again, choso's blood barrier completely stop furnance, and choso is a character that got one shot by nerf sukuna in chapter 246. > The criticism/take I'm responding to is "Gojo beats Heian Era Sukuna", which has not been proven I agree > because their fight could end in a stalemate/a battle of attrition, to see who runs out of CE first. Gojo has been stated numerous times to not be able to run out of ce, while sukuna has multiple statements in which he is running out of ce (running is a bit of a misnomer but he has consumed more than half his reserve). There is no question of who runs out. > Gojo also hasn't shown anything that could kill Sukuna Yes he has. Gojo cannot run out of ce while sukuna can. Gojo should also have the advantage or be equal in cqc even against heian era sukuna who constantly uses domain amplification, so sukuna's only way of killing gojo would be malevolent shrine (which i explained how gojo can avoid). This means that it would just be a very long battle until sukuna starts to run oit of ce and gets defeated. > I think what Gege was trying to convey is that Sukuna won not merely because of Mahoraga, but because he used Mahoraga in a way only he could, which is why he was the better sorcerer (narratively). I agree with the general idea but i would phrase it differently. Sukuna won because of mahoraga, but that doesn't mean that he would lose without it. Even gojo's statement from chapter 236 is purposely left vague. He didn't say conclusively that sukuna would have beaten him anyway, but he also didn't say that he would have conclusively beaten sukuna. It is kept as a it coudl go either way, which is why a debate on who would win can be had
You've made a lot of fair points, so there's not a lot for me to disagree with. I just have a few things I'm not clear on. You say that if Sukuna had used DA constantly within Unlimited Void, he would have outlasted it – but wasn't he alreading constantly using DA? He only alternated between DA and 10S after the domain clashes, because Mahoraga was already adapting passively via Megumi no? Or have I forgotten something? You're right that MS sure-hit didn't kill Gojo immediately, but him using RCT to heal through it wasn't sustainable in the long run (as you can run out – which he did until he hit his Black Flashes). However, Divine Flames seems stronger than sure-hit, because Mahoraga adapted to MS sure-hit but was vaporized by DF. Also, I think Gojo "can't run out of CE" because he's so energy-efficient due to his Six Eyes. That doesn't mean he will literally never run out, just that he can fight pretty much anyone as though he has an unlimited pool. However, Sukuna has way more than any other character, so it's at least possible that Gojo would begin to run into CE problems fighting him. I also think it's worth noting that Sukuna's CE really started to go down the drain because of Yuji's soul punches. Unless I'm misremembering things, Sukuna only started to worry about his low output during his 3v1 against Yuji, Yuta and Rika, implying he didn't expend a lot fighting Gojo, Kashimo, and Higuruma and co. Despite these minor gripes, I agree with most of what you're saying and I think that we're mostly on the same page. I've seen you post on some JJK subreddits before (and maybe some AOT ones? Your username seems familiar but idk), but in any case I'm glad to have this discussion with you. "Sukuna won because of Mahoraga, but that doesn't mean he would lose without it." Well said.
> but didn't he? He only alternated between DA and 10S after the domain clashes, because Mahoraga was already adapting passively via Megumi no? Or have I forgotten something? Sukuna cannot use domain amplification and ten shadows at the same time, that's why the wheel tuens black (as shown in chapter 231). For mahoraga to adapt to megumi's unlimited void damage, megumi needed to be hit by unlimited void (so be in a domain clash), and sukuna needed to not use domain amplification for the ten shadows to be activated. Thus, he needed to switch between domain amplification and the ten shadows during the domain clashes. Using only ten shadows would make mahoraga adapt faster but sukuna wouldn't have lasted 3 minutes. Using only domain amplification would allows sukuna to last more than 3 minutes, but mahoraga wouldn't adapt at all. > as you can run out – which he did until he hit his Black Flashes The reason gojo and sukuna were suddenly no able to use rct (at least fast) was because they both got brain damage, gojo from forcefully healing his brian 5 times, and sukuna from doing the same for 3 times + taking a few seconds of unlimited void. This was explained in chapter 230. Gojo recovered from that by creating a new rct circuit in his brain due to his awakened state by black flash. This was explained in chapter 258. Just using rct a lot isn't slowing it at all. > Divine Flames seems stronger than sure-hit, because Mahoraga adapted to MS sure-hit but was vaporized by DF. Mahoraga would have been killed by cleave as malevolent shrine's sure hit, as stated by the narrator in chapter 119. However, sukuna had adapted to slashing attacking in general in chapter 118, so that was an adapted mahoraga. He hadn't adapted at all to fire attacks, so those exorcised it. I do agree that furnance is probably stronger though. > That doesn't mean he will literally never run out, just that he can fight pretty much anyone as though he has an unlimited pool Yuta stated twice that gojo literally cannot run out of ce. Once in chapter 140 in his introduction and once agin in chapter 226. The one from chapter 226 is especially important, as ino raised the same concern that you did, that gojo just doesn't normally run out of ce but in such a battle he would. However, yuta responded that gojo cannot run out. > I also think it's worth noting that Sukuna's CE really started to go down the drain because of Yuji's soul punches. Unless I'm misremembering things, Sukuna only started to worry about his low output during his 3v1 against Yuji, Yuta and Rika, implying he didn't expend a lot fighting Gojo, Kashimo, and Higuruma and co. That's not how it went. Sukuna said that he has the same amount of ce as yuta (who should have around 9 fingers worth of ce) in chapter 250, which was during the beginning of the domain fight. He starts by saying "after my battle with gojo satoru...", attributing his ce reserve drop to the fight with gojo. Yuji's punches don't affect sukuna's ce levels at all. They only attack the barrier between sukuna's soul and megumi, thus lowering their connection and as a consequence sukuna's control of the body (which lowers the ce output). Sukuna states in the same chapter, 250, that his output is already low due to the battle with gojo > I've seen you post on some JJK subreddits before (and maybe some AOT ones? I did actually start out with posting in aot subs 3-4 years ago and then i moved to jjk subs:)).
I see... Thanks for the corrections! You're completely right that Sukuna had to turn off DA to adapt Mahoraga passively, idk how I didn't realize that to be the case. As for the other stuff, I guess I overlooked them when reading. The reading comprehension curse gets us all I suppose. Glad you could clear that up for me!
> I guess I overlooked them when reading. The reading comprehension curse gets us all I suppose That's not really accurate. You said in the post that you only recently got into jjk. This is the problem (not really a problem but core of the issue). As much as people make fun of it, jjk is a pretty hard text to read. It is dense with information and most of the times things are only said once. I find it hard to believe that there is somebody who can only read it once and get pretty much everything that's said. Therefore, it's not the reading comprehension curse. The reading comprehension curse appears when somebody clearly doesn't comprehend what's happening. Earlier today i saw somebody writing that they thought ryu is alive even though we see on panel how sukuna clearly splits his head into three. Similarly, there were people asking why sukuna isn't opening his domain when it was clearly explained that he has brain damage and cannot do it. These are the reading comprehension victims, not the people who don't remember particualr details