It’s the same thing with asshole protagonist like suprsingly being a jerk or stuff makes them above being called out and they don’t show any reaction to even murder or everyone around them is ethier stupid or comically evil to make the sociopath look normal and look desirable.
Rooftop swordman is about a single-minded man that suffered an incomprehensible trauma. So he trains until he becomes ultra OP. The antagonists are strawman rich spoiled brats, so he ends up destroying Seoul in the process of self-defensely killing them
I was watching overlord over the past couple weeks. Honestly I was having a pretty good time because most of the people they killed were like shitty people. I know they’re supposed to be evil, but Ainz seemed like he was directing it more towards shitty people? Like anti-villain vibes.
Then I got to season 3 and there was like a weird ass Castle Doctrine Arc. Idk if I missed something or what, but that group of people didn’t seem that bad (the main sympathetic crew, I know there were some shitty people mixed into the larger group)? Then there was a sadistic post credit scene of one of the characters younger siblings just talking about how much they miss their sibling and how they can’t wait for them to come back. Like, what? Again maybe I missed details along the way cuz I kinda had the show on in the background while doing other stuff, but it was a weird vibe killer. I know Ainz losing his humanity is a thing that pops up once in a while, I don’t have a problem with that, I just don’t know if it flowed right for me.
Nah, you've got it right.
Overlord is a series that pays a lot of lip service to the whole "But he's always been evil thing!" when half the series has been stupid gag humour and greater evil stuff before it veers directly into just pointlessly murdering sympathetic people for zero reason.
And it still doesn't have the guts to commit because it goes right back to "Noooo, he's not a bad person, look, he's a funny Skeletal man! No penis!"
Evil people can be humorous and pretty sure he has a reason for killing everyone he did can’t think of anyone he killed for no reason.
Don’t get me wrong the reasons are shity and morally unjustified but there is reasoning behind them.
Interestingly enough, this is not even a case of him losing his humanity, but the person he was before. The Anime doesen't adress this, but Ainz originally lived in a futuristic Cyberpunk dystopia where the planet is ruined by megacorporations ruining everything. As in large scale enviromental collapse killing almost all plant and animal life outside of certain domes, regular horrible weather phenomenons like acidic rain storms, the air literally not being breathable requiring everyone to wear special masks outside, and the governments themselves collapsed and all their branches privatized from public schooling to law enforcement.
https://overlordmaruyama.fandom.com/wiki/World_of_2138
Ainz himself saw his parents work themselves to death as a child, was only ever attend primary school(which also charges tuition), before ending up in in a deadend position as a salaryman, in a society where worker's right aren't a thing. With his only activity of leisure being the MMORP he uses all his disposable income for.
As a result of this Ainz basically grew up learning not to care for anyone except him and his friends, he even described how he used to be as "Honestly. I used to be the sort of person who wasn’t bothered by seeing the corpses of
street orphans, since they showed up so often that they were nothing rare".
From the moment he shows up in the new world the only thing Ainz Cares about are the NPCs of Nazarick, since he views them as the children of his friends who designed them. The only reason he even saves the village at the start is because the NPC Sebas asked him, and Ainz was reminded of how his creator would probably have done the same. He also only grows to like the Village Girl(who uses the Goblin Horn), because she praises his friends when seeing Nazarick.
We later find out those children were sold into slavery where they died of overwork and then theres Demiurge's rape farms where human woman are raped by monsters to do breeding experiments
Overlord is edgy shit for edgy kids
Ainz himself doesen't know about the farms. The NPCs allude ot it, fully expecting him to understand what they mean when they say stuff like "breeding two-legged sheep and using their skin for magic scrolls". Ainz not wanting to give away that he's not nearly as smart as they assume he is, never asks for clarification.
It gets worse. Pretty sure I recall them mashing some of the newborns into paste, adding it to some oats or something and force feeding their human "cattle" with that. And considering how Ainz is(he directly ordered the eternal torment of the Workers he trampled), if he knew he still wouldn't actually give a shit.
The only people i can see liking Overlord are the ones with the mentality of an 13 that will call weak or a boy scout to people who dont like it, they probably are the type of people who love the trope of evil Superman and claim is more "realistic"
I feel like Overlord is a cool idea on paper, mimicking how there’s always the evil option in video games, but Ainz just isn’t a guy you want to spectate after all the things he does
I do love the trope of evil Superman, though of course it's not realistic. I am also deep down an edgelord though I try to control it. Maybe I should check out Overlord.
As weird as the lizard people village arc was I knew the moment that shit was on that Ainz was an evil fuck. I dropped it soon after though tbf becasue I found it boring.
The light novels are better in expanding the side characters that the anime cut out. Some of them are still shifty, bit it's interesting to see their motivations.
Edit: to be clear, I don't like how overlord turned out. The biggest the op mc never gets op. I long for aimz to get his kunumpings. Honestly I find aide cahracyers like Remedios more interesting, she a very flawed but good person that would've been primed for character development of she was the mc.
I'm trying to kind of catch up on the light novels because while I love the show so many details and context are cut out.
If I recall correctly the initial treasure the different adventurer teams found at the start of the raid was left intentionally as a chance for them to just make bank and walk away, they would've been fine, it's the fact that they chose to keep going and in so doing besmirch Nazarick by coming in uninvited that sealed their fates.
It's definitely not fair and it's fucked up but when it comes to Ainz you basically gotta operate under the mindset of a person's life is only weighed in how they are involved with Nazarick itself, regardless of their own moral integrity. It's why Ainz was so torturous against everyone who came in, but why he can also be extremely altruistic like saving Tuare in s2 and even getting mad at Albedo for questioning it, because he promised her protection and the ones who kidnapped her offended his and Nazarick's honor by doing so.
Ngl I made the mistake of checking the overlord subreddit (specifically about the part I had just watched) after I made my first comment and yikes. A lot of “Yes obviously he’s evil, everything he does is evil, he’s been evil the whole time. But like considering all that, don’t you agree with everything he does and it kinda looks dope?”
I had a similar reaction when checking out Reverend Insanity subreddit to learn more about parts of the story that I've read about, apparently Fang Yuan (the MC of the story) being unapologetically evil and willing to do anything to gain power with no morality holding him back is the main draw and is something to admire.
I suppose it's rare to find an xianxia with such a MC being relatively well written (as other xianxia novels with evil MC's tend to be more on the chaotic side with little subtlety), making this novel be attractive to people who look for that kind of thing, but still.
Not everyone in the sub is like that. LOL
https://www.reddit.com/r/ReverendInsanity/comments/1bdtyln/shout_out_to_all_the_fang_yuan_wannabes_who_drank/
Also, there is a difference of heaven and earth between the protagonists of Reverend Insanity and Clownlord.
The thing about overlord is that I got into it thinking it was about a regular dude who accidentally ended up as the head of a bunch of op evil people, and he had to pretend to be down for evil while trying to keep them from actually committing atrocities, which I thought was interesting, and at first it was like that.
Then, as it went on, he just started being evil too, and it became a story about a bunch of awful people screwing up the world they were dropped into, and I stopped reading it at that point.
The funny part is that there is no incentive to be evil to keep them under control. Outside of those who received explicit orders from their own personal creator (>!like Albedo!<) to act otherwise, all Nazerick NPCs are slavishly devoted to Ainz since he’s one of the Supreme Beings.
To the point where they’ll practice 1984 doublethink or straight up refuse to processes anything that would disprove or dissuade them otherwise.
Overlord is pissfart because of it's premise to begin with
You got transported to you fav video game, ok cool
BUT you're also at max lvl and gear along with fully decked out servants/NPCs at your side, right so what kind of beings im going to fight?
Tutorial mobs, that's it (and no, those guys from the theocracy can't do jackshit either)
It's the same old power fantasy
He's not transported into his favourite video game, he's transported into a very different world he's not familiar with, and got to keep stuff from the video game he was playing.
It is a total power fantasy though. Personally I was always more interested in the natives in setting and how they reacted to the changes brough to them, than I cared about Ainz.
Honestly, you can think he's a lighter shade of gray in season 1. Season 2 onwards he's a straightforward villain protagonist. The narrative just don't hammer it, but it's very clear for everybody not drinking the Protagonist Centered Morality.
What particularly evil stuff does he do in the first season? I haven't watched the anime in a while but he was often chaotic good at worst. I think it got darker but for the most part, he was pretty much a "good guy"
The anime censors stuff that clearly paint him as a bad guy. In the incident with Clementine Ainz is supposed to summon several undead monsters to make sure nobody can take the credit of solving the incident from him, this is missing in the anime.
And there's the murdering of the adventurer who followed him when he's trying to deal with the Shalltear situation. The guy eho Mare bashed to death and later became the lich in the second season.
Not really.
Overlord has some problems, but Ainz is never portrayed as being morally correct. Even in the early volumes, he's always been shown as being an apathetic monster.
Overlord doesn’t treat it’s MC like the good guy lol it’s just a series where the bad guys win.
In the second arc the MC summons monster to kill the people helping him kill monsters so the wouldn’t “Steal his Glory”
He was killing the lizard men just cus he needed corpses.
LN 12-13 or the new movie cus the genius at madhouse believe a single movie can fit 2 LN Volumes: He has a country half destroyed so he can sent help and eventually take over it.
Oh and he is taking over the world cus he didn’t want to seem stupid lol.
He literally says I get away with this shit cus I’m strong and “Even I would be oppressed if I were weak”
Bloody hell he annihilates a country over some grain Ainz Is evil but sometimes evil people win.
I don’t think the story ever portrays him as good.
Seing the bad guys constantly win and do horrible shit without any repercution, will not only get repetitive, is frustrating unless youre a psychopaths that wishes to be like the villian
This isn't true at all. Fiction isn't reality and many people enjoy watching awful things happen in stories without it reflecting on who they are irl. If you don't agree then frankly the problem is yours and you need to learn to separate fiction and reality.
I mean, seeing the good guys constantly win and have happy endings gets old as well. A lot more IMO, because good happy endings are hard to write but bad endings are almost always intriguing just by nature of being bad. "All happy families are alike, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way," as Tolstoy put it.
If "bad guy wins" became as common as happy endings they would get tedious, but they are no where near that common. Hell, even in the much edgier 90s they were still a small fraction of media.
Except the difference is that these are awful people we're talking about, sure it's enjoyable on paper, but on practice it feels like someone's revenge fantasy manifesto just because they got bullied or never got laid that may as well had stayed in the attic.
... But I like watching awful people be awful. Because that was neglected by a lot of media for a long time.
But angry hermit raging at the world is not a bad description of me, so maybe this is just like attracting like. Though I was never bullied much and I have gotten laid.
good on you for enjoying the whole concpet but it's just not for me honestly, there's no arguing here anymore it's pretty clear we're never gonna get anywhere over personal preferences.
Admittedly I can't speak for everyone, but from my POV at least a happy ending where the good guys win is generally more satisfying. I don't agree with Rarte insofar as the only ones who enjoy watching the villains win are psychopaths, but I'd imagine the majority of people have a much higher tolerance for good endings, just because watching bad guys constantly win seems depressing. Interesting, perhaps, but not necessarily *enjoyable*.
See I just don't get that. It's only satisfying if you actually like and care about the "good guy" characters and that requires some talent in writing (and all other areas if we are talking about something beyond a written story). Otherwise it's like (to use a heavily outdated sports reference) seeing the Yankees win. Like "Woo the totally obvious and expected outcome has occurred!" doesn't make sense to me.
It comes down to whether we judge stories as narratives of events that occurred in our world or one like it (that is, one governed by physical rather than narrative laws) or judge them as they actually are, a distinct kind of environment ruled by a lot of conventions that have no relation to how reality works. If a story can suck you in enough to stop viewing it as a story but as a window onto these characters you care about, then yes, a happy ending can be much more satisfying. But if either it or you fail in some way to facilitate that mindset, that immersion, then it becomes exactly like rooting for the 10:1 favorite team in a sport. Boring and pointless to me.
Just like I never understood how someone could be a fan of a dominant sports franchise, I never understood how someone could simply like seeing good guys beat bad guys. But I had always identified more with villains than heroes in media. Generally the villain is the one who is either seeking some huge, dramatic change and the hero is the one fighting for the status quo, yawn, or the villain is a predator fulfilling their dark needs and the hero is putting them down like a rabid dog. I've always identified more with the predators and monsters than the people, more with Godzilla and King Kong and Dracula than those trying to stop them. And if I had the choice of dying with my house crushed by Gozilla or a singular and utterly unprecedented miracle of nature like that being destroyed, I'd say crush me Godzilla, you deserve to live more than me because you are exceptional and exciting and I am just a boring person.
Now that isn't to say that I never root for the heroes or like them more than the villains. In fact, my go to example of a happy ending that is done well is one of the most insanely sappy, sweet happy endings ever: Kung Fu Hustle. Though I did like the Beast most in that film, seeing the main character triumph in the end is great and the whole movie is just filled with such unrelenting joy it couldn't have ended any other way. It's perfect. But most happy endings aren't like that, they're just a reset to conditions around the beginning of the movie. Boring.
I think the issue lies in the fact that you may be a minority in this sort of thing, and it just comes down to a simple matter of personal preference.
I will say, though, that in most cases where a villain would win, regardless of their motivation, it would have consequences that I can't imagine a lot of people finding enjoyable to think about. Usually involving mass death, trails of destruction, persecution, all those sorts of things. For me, it would take even more skill to make a villain's victory enjoyable and/or satisfying. Just as much as the audience has to care about the hero, they'd have to want to care about or at least look past the worst parts of the villain.
Idk man, it depends, like surely there is. Someone out there who is like yeah, man bad guy should win.
And watching bad guy winning doesnt say much about people mentality, have u seen thos gore videos, sometimes its just morbid curiousity.
Like what, people seeing all the goody 2 shoes mc are actually going to be bleeding heart, kind?
Watching gore videos out of morbid curiosity is a big warning sing that i should stay away from that person, next thing you know they are killing small animals to see their insides or become a cop
Nah disagree there are different ways to write a story then just have the good guys win I mean don't get me wrong you don't have to like it or anything it defo isn't for everyone
Or maybe you like the other aspects of the series like the world building and the characters that get killed or how they are affected by the bad guys they stand no hopes of defeating, yea it will get repetitive if that’s all there is in the story but there are other aspects of it.
Why watch a show where the characters you actually like are fodder that will die just to show how strong and evil the author self insert is just to then move on to do the exact same shit in other new character that is almost a copy paste of events of the previous one
A character dying dose not ruin their character arc hell them overstaying their welcome dose that more often(Marvel,DC)
Again I find the world interesting and I also like the Characters on the MC’s side and not every character gets killed.
Doubt you’ll care but Volume 12 and 13 are told from the perspective of a New World character who goes from an religious person automatically hating the Undead to someone praising Ainz as Justice because she saw him succeed where the preachy self righteous human hero’s failed you see how she ends up worshiping the person who killed her parents and crippled her country it’s the same type of enjoyment people get out of H.P Lovecraft’s works only we get to understand Cuthulu as well.
Sounds like you like brainwashed generic waifu that joins Self Insert's harem after he humiliate a goody two shoes boy scout, sorry, is just sound like a edgy power sexual fantasy for edgy boys to self insert
I must assume you hate characters like Superman and thing that the Injustice version is a more realistic depiction
Of course she sounds like that you aren’t reading 2 volumes but my bullet points, she doesn’t know he’s the cause and thinks he’s the one who solved the problem she has this aspect of dramatic irony to her, but I won’t be able to get 2 volumes across in a comment.
And you’d think wrong I like Superman and haven’t even played injustice as for evil superman the version I like is Justice lord from Justice league unlimited? Maybe one the animated ones.
I just perceive Ainz and his group as a gag when doing murders that's why I was able to tolerate those murders and it did not have significant impact on me.
Could be that too but i find people hate more on characters who’s flaws are of a sexual nature more than other kinds of wrongs and definitely think that’s cus violence is more prevalent and also everyone has experienced violence at some point so everyone has experienced why it’s bad.
Well I disagree cus while the kid can go on and have a life after the event the murdered will not and their life just ends.
For clarification I haven’t been sexually assaulted as a child so Can’t speak from experience.
And I don’t believe in an afterlife so yea I feel like those biases? Presumptions? Are important to note as I feel like those would greatly affect people’s stances on the matters.
Rudeus is a pedophile that gets rewarded for little changes and his reward is slow aging wifes that look like teens, pedophilia is a more realistic topic than an evil magic empire
I just know that Mushoku fans will rain down with their typical "Is a redemption story" "He stops being a pedo(he doesnt)" "He is suppose to be unlikable". Sorry guys we most people dont want to see a history of NAMBlA members getting redimed, normal people who arent otakus with loli figurines want them to rot in jail far away from children
It's something I like about how the main character from Go Go Loser Ranger is handled. As in, yes, he's far from the worst evil in the setting, and is very much sympathetic due to this. But he's contrasted with characters who have a better moral center like Hibiki Sakurama, and the evils he has done or is doing aren't excused or brushed away. His position is understandable, but the narrative doesn't portray it as the right one. Instead there's a push for him to evolve.
It helps that this MC has no compulsion to pretend to the readers that he's a good guy (and that he's pretty tsundere about acknowledging his good nature).
Another reason why it works so well is that oftentimes (especially earlier in the series), anything good that he does isn't actually portrayed as such. Rather, it's either selfish or furthers his agenda
Gina from Brooklyn 99 kinda fits what you’re talking about. Absolutely shitty person, sexually harasses a male officer constantly, but is always portrayed as if she’s in the right.
I get it.
Some characters from a garbage series are meant to be good if grey but falls flat cause they are boring or they are flat out bad people and its never acknowledge or change or something
Say OP is Kratos from GOW original trilogy however the counter exemple to your post?
Depends on What you mean by counter example.
I haven't actually experience/remember much of the older games so I can't exactly say anything on God of war and do it justice.
But if I recall correctly, from the bits I watched my pop's or got to play while visiting my cousins and the occasional half remembered YouTube cutscene the Olympian gods were very much a "Yeah we did you wrong but we don't want like comeuppance for the whole thing" versus Kratos going"You fuckers made me murder my wife and kids, I'm taking ares skull and the skull of anyone who gets in-between me and them".
And not your shitty Manhwa villain "Man I enjoy being a sadistic bastard for no personal gain and making faces, that would make Yami Bakura ask me to chill the fuck out if he saw, also I get personally offended at the *idea* that someone would dare to point out let alone try and get justice for my actions" antagonist's. Nor anyone going"have you asked the gods if their sowwy about killing your family"
Kratos throughout GOW 2 and 3 I would say is such an awful piece of shit, that the attempts to make the gods seem like douchey jackasses utterly fail to make him "kind of have a point". GOW 3 is still one of my favorite games ever, but Kratos i genuinely so unpleasant and despicable I would prefer it if they had just gone "yeah you are playing the bad guy" instead of trying to force some form of sympathetic angle in there.
One of the things I like about *Reverend Insanity* is that it never tries to portray the MC as a good person. Some of his enemies are pretty bad people, but a lot of them are portrayed as decent, and in general there's a wide range of people with different outlooks and moral views.
I think the problem lies with the writers refusing to make their villain protagonist sympathetic but also refusing to make the heroes sympathetic
You either don’t commit crimes and are sympathetic while bringing a sick sense of Justice
Or everyone just sucks more to make the main characters look better
Villain protagonist aren’t allowed to be villains since most of the protagonist love depends on their charisma
Most audiences have an innate sense of justice, meaning that there is a bunch of dissonance between when the author thinks something is good vs when it's actually in front of the audience. The best example of this is highly politically charged conent written by someone who is blindedly by their own biases, meaning that they have a weirdly warped sense of good and bad. Best example of this is the New Guy comic that was a meme a few years ago. Basic summary, the author self insert is snickering because Pewdiepie got robbed, New Guy at work appeals to the golden rule and says "hey, you wouldn't be happy if you got robbed, think of how he feels", she is then snarky to him and makes him sad. The author assumed the audience would agree with her since Pewdiepie is a rich and successful guy, so clearly him being robbed is a good thing.
Basically, it's not great when there is strong dissonance between the morals of the viewer and the author, a lot of these MCs are the result of wish fulfillment coming from a bad place.
>And a lot of the times I've seen fans defend it with themian arguments in which, "X was necessary because of Y action" only works when the narrative does it well it doesnt matter if in universe there's some reason why they were totally justified (She had Yin poisoning I had to rape her in her sleep, they attacked first if I didn't strike back it'd look like I'm weak, needed to charge absolutely vital plot mcguffin) because it's ultimately one the author made up.
Looks like you've had the unfortunate experience of interacting with Nano machine fans
The only thing I know about Nano machine is that it's a cultivation novel, nor even talked to its fans. Yet I've already experienced the exact thing you're talking about.
The MC of Nano Machine rapes a woman to save her life and he also murders a shit ton of people and Nano Machine fans consistently defend it with their life. The worst instance of that has to be when a woman who had been kidnapped and held captive by pirates for a few years developed Stockholms syndrome and refused to leave with him so he snapped her neck and kidnapped her newborn baby
From my like old recollections, the mc was initially like a good guy like a common Cultivation mc. He was in a demonic family and didn't like the violence but he eventually grows into the classic ruthless to enemies thing which is still in line with most mcs. But around when he became the leader of the heavenly demon sect or whatever it's called, he just becomes ruthless and the author spins it as an oh he has no mercy, and as a badass thing when going against other characters. The problem is this leading to him straight up being evil half the time, ignoring his initial character entirely.
Yeah but almost everyone else is cartoonishly evil and callous for the sheer sake of it, or they’re too incompetent/unaware to understand what Joker is going through, making it seem as if Joker’s rampage is justified
Check out the first law trilogy you'll like it because one of the mc there is loved by some of its people but also hated, because of his past and what he did later in the books. Only one person view him as a good guy
The games make zero attempt to say that his horniness is an actually good trait, just that it leads to genuine heroics because he will do anything to get laid. There is also like, a genuine difference between how the industry was back in 1989 when it started, and 2018 when it finished so his change as a character reflects how the times have changed
When I first read Shamo, I was like "The MC has killed his parents, but he's clearly traumatized by them, but maybe this story is about him getting better?"
No, he gets worse. It was about him exploring his darkness for his own selfish desires. And it's a good ass manga. (Didn't read part 2)
Wdym? Like the trop I described was "writing an evil character but constantly copping them out so they're never actually the bad guy in a situation, turning black into grey at best and white with bad pr at worst'
The fuck you mean don't watch anime if I don't like this sort of thing. I never said anything *about* anime specifically I talked about a very specific form of bad writing that applies to every form of media.
Secondly that's an invalid response like a solid 99% of the time because enjoying a medium doesn't mean you can't have legitimate complaints or gripes, nor is it wrong to wish it was better.
Though the writing in it is generally bad, I did appreciate how Reincarnated as a Dragon Hatchling's pushed the protagonist to be "evil". When presented with no good options to save a village, he concludes that an evil act would let him evolve into something capable of winning, and tears an ally's head off. Sure you can say it was justified and the man would have agreed to it, but he is still basically sacrificing someone for more power. It was even foreshadowed a bit by earlier explanations of how evolutions worked, and was a genuinely clever moment for the protagonist. Honestly the only well thought out moment in the story so far...
Personally I wouldn't count Deadpool in the same group, He's a sociopath who doesn't feel empathy proper but most I've seen never really paint his every action as being justified and reasonable either compared to his enemies or the situation.
I think you can get away with a sociopathic character who doesn't feel much remorse but it needs to be written in a way where the author isn't going "But of course it was the most pragmatic option"
I suppose in his case it's more like he's funny and breaks the rules of comics which appeals to the audience and that basically sets him up as a sympathetic character. The author doesn't exactly step down into the narrative and say that 'this was okay' but he frequently ends up saving the day... by being a murderous sociopath. His comics aren't really concerned with the morality of the situation because hey, he just defused an unstable nuclear reactor, what's not to like? Who cares if he shot some people just because they annoyed him? There's no need for anyone to get out citations to some ethical philosophy because his fanbase doesn't need or want that kind of justification- "he's a good guy because he likes boobies and 4th wall jokes just like me".
I'll freely admit my experience of it is pretty limited to maybe like 10 comics, but because this very trope annoys me so much, I'd really rather lose an argument about it than read more. I'm looking back at your original post and I want to clarify- the authors don't go through each of his individual actions and say why they're good, but he's definitely set up as a sympathetic character in general, and that feeds back to his actions.
Yeah I get what your saying, I suppose that's the Comedic/Likeable sociopath effect, a character who yeah if you objectively look at their actions, behavior and effects are pretty terrible but are funny and relatable enough to not hate.
They're close to each other but I honestly think Deadpool's comedic sociopath tendencies are a lot better written than most "Pragmatic Villainous" protagonists I read. I suppose that's because more personality peaks through which makes him more likeable compared to a gray rock who does bad things but gets the author get out of jail free card of "It was necessary"
I can see why you wouldn't like Deadpool though fourth wall and comedic sociopath bits get...tiring really quickly unless the writer is real good.
It's not even the only thing. In his own comics, he's frequently shown to be clowning on the heroes and just throwing their lows and struggles in their faces because of course he knows about them, not that he knows that in their comics, they worked through those issues and rose above them. He's like an audience self-insert character, but only the segment of the audience that thinks comics are too moralistic and serious or something- perhaps liking them as kids, but then growing into the unbearable kind of teenager who thinks taking care to do the right thing is only for kids.
There's such a thing as constructive criticism, done out of genuine concern, and then there's just mindless hate and it only appeals to those who hated the surrounding fictional universe in this case.The fact of the matter is, you can only have fun destroying things for so long before they're just destroyed and there's nothing left. They even did a special called 'Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe' where he just character assassinates, literally and figuratively, every major IP, and then goes after the writers. Like, I'm sorry, but how do you enjoy this as a fan of literally anything Marvel has ever done? It's not fan fiction; it's hater fiction, and I hate it.
It’s the same thing with asshole protagonist like suprsingly being a jerk or stuff makes them above being called out and they don’t show any reaction to even murder or everyone around them is ethier stupid or comically evil to make the sociopath look normal and look desirable.
Rooftop swordsman moment
The most dangerous comic ever written
Rooftop Swordmaster broke into my house, beat me up and fucked my wife. He should not be let loose
Explain?
Rooftop swordman is about a single-minded man that suffered an incomprehensible trauma. So he trains until he becomes ultra OP. The antagonists are strawman rich spoiled brats, so he ends up destroying Seoul in the process of self-defensely killing them
As one does
Literally me
Best asshole protagonist is hclw he gets humbled and learns to behave in front of his mates.
I think Overlord also fits this criteria
I was watching overlord over the past couple weeks. Honestly I was having a pretty good time because most of the people they killed were like shitty people. I know they’re supposed to be evil, but Ainz seemed like he was directing it more towards shitty people? Like anti-villain vibes. Then I got to season 3 and there was like a weird ass Castle Doctrine Arc. Idk if I missed something or what, but that group of people didn’t seem that bad (the main sympathetic crew, I know there were some shitty people mixed into the larger group)? Then there was a sadistic post credit scene of one of the characters younger siblings just talking about how much they miss their sibling and how they can’t wait for them to come back. Like, what? Again maybe I missed details along the way cuz I kinda had the show on in the background while doing other stuff, but it was a weird vibe killer. I know Ainz losing his humanity is a thing that pops up once in a while, I don’t have a problem with that, I just don’t know if it flowed right for me.
Nah, you've got it right. Overlord is a series that pays a lot of lip service to the whole "But he's always been evil thing!" when half the series has been stupid gag humour and greater evil stuff before it veers directly into just pointlessly murdering sympathetic people for zero reason. And it still doesn't have the guts to commit because it goes right back to "Noooo, he's not a bad person, look, he's a funny Skeletal man! No penis!"
Evil people can be humorous and pretty sure he has a reason for killing everyone he did can’t think of anyone he killed for no reason. Don’t get me wrong the reasons are shity and morally unjustified but there is reasoning behind them.
Explain Demiurge's human farm
It's actually stated he doesn't know about that
Interestingly enough, this is not even a case of him losing his humanity, but the person he was before. The Anime doesen't adress this, but Ainz originally lived in a futuristic Cyberpunk dystopia where the planet is ruined by megacorporations ruining everything. As in large scale enviromental collapse killing almost all plant and animal life outside of certain domes, regular horrible weather phenomenons like acidic rain storms, the air literally not being breathable requiring everyone to wear special masks outside, and the governments themselves collapsed and all their branches privatized from public schooling to law enforcement. https://overlordmaruyama.fandom.com/wiki/World_of_2138 Ainz himself saw his parents work themselves to death as a child, was only ever attend primary school(which also charges tuition), before ending up in in a deadend position as a salaryman, in a society where worker's right aren't a thing. With his only activity of leisure being the MMORP he uses all his disposable income for. As a result of this Ainz basically grew up learning not to care for anyone except him and his friends, he even described how he used to be as "Honestly. I used to be the sort of person who wasn’t bothered by seeing the corpses of street orphans, since they showed up so often that they were nothing rare". From the moment he shows up in the new world the only thing Ainz Cares about are the NPCs of Nazarick, since he views them as the children of his friends who designed them. The only reason he even saves the village at the start is because the NPC Sebas asked him, and Ainz was reminded of how his creator would probably have done the same. He also only grows to like the Village Girl(who uses the Goblin Horn), because she praises his friends when seeing Nazarick.
The real world sounds more interesting that the edgy adventures in the videogame
Well, yeah, it’s basically an edgier lift of Cyberpunk game manuals and the like.
This shit makes it sound like Ainz is David Martinez was resurrected into a skeletal incel dweeb with too many powers.
We later find out those children were sold into slavery where they died of overwork and then theres Demiurge's rape farms where human woman are raped by monsters to do breeding experiments Overlord is edgy shit for edgy kids
Fkin yikes. I feel like they hinted at the “farms” in the anime but I definitely don’t remember any details being shown. Edgy indeed
Ainz himself doesen't know about the farms. The NPCs allude ot it, fully expecting him to understand what they mean when they say stuff like "breeding two-legged sheep and using their skin for magic scrolls". Ainz not wanting to give away that he's not nearly as smart as they assume he is, never asks for clarification.
Still Tremendously edgy and tasteless
It gets worse. Pretty sure I recall them mashing some of the newborns into paste, adding it to some oats or something and force feeding their human "cattle" with that. And considering how Ainz is(he directly ordered the eternal torment of the Workers he trampled), if he knew he still wouldn't actually give a shit.
Usually Ains tells his people to grant humans a quick death if they haven't wronged Nazarick.
Edgy yes.Tasteless cmon now it's a bit funny
The only people i can see liking Overlord are the ones with the mentality of an 13 that will call weak or a boy scout to people who dont like it, they probably are the type of people who love the trope of evil Superman and claim is more "realistic"
I feel like Overlord is a cool idea on paper, mimicking how there’s always the evil option in video games, but Ainz just isn’t a guy you want to spectate after all the things he does
I do love the trope of evil Superman, though of course it's not realistic. I am also deep down an edgelord though I try to control it. Maybe I should check out Overlord.
I thought the Happy Farm was just him butchering people for ritual materials
As weird as the lizard people village arc was I knew the moment that shit was on that Ainz was an evil fuck. I dropped it soon after though tbf becasue I found it boring.
The light novels are better in expanding the side characters that the anime cut out. Some of them are still shifty, bit it's interesting to see their motivations. Edit: to be clear, I don't like how overlord turned out. The biggest the op mc never gets op. I long for aimz to get his kunumpings. Honestly I find aide cahracyers like Remedios more interesting, she a very flawed but good person that would've been primed for character development of she was the mc.
Yeah I had the same issue with that arc. I know they did bad stuff before, but that moment was just too unpleasant
I'm trying to kind of catch up on the light novels because while I love the show so many details and context are cut out. If I recall correctly the initial treasure the different adventurer teams found at the start of the raid was left intentionally as a chance for them to just make bank and walk away, they would've been fine, it's the fact that they chose to keep going and in so doing besmirch Nazarick by coming in uninvited that sealed their fates. It's definitely not fair and it's fucked up but when it comes to Ainz you basically gotta operate under the mindset of a person's life is only weighed in how they are involved with Nazarick itself, regardless of their own moral integrity. It's why Ainz was so torturous against everyone who came in, but why he can also be extremely altruistic like saving Tuare in s2 and even getting mad at Albedo for questioning it, because he promised her protection and the ones who kidnapped her offended his and Nazarick's honor by doing so.
Anime fans will defend any atrocity commited by their favorite character MC self insert, is insane
Ngl I made the mistake of checking the overlord subreddit (specifically about the part I had just watched) after I made my first comment and yikes. A lot of “Yes obviously he’s evil, everything he does is evil, he’s been evil the whole time. But like considering all that, don’t you agree with everything he does and it kinda looks dope?”
I had a similar reaction when checking out Reverend Insanity subreddit to learn more about parts of the story that I've read about, apparently Fang Yuan (the MC of the story) being unapologetically evil and willing to do anything to gain power with no morality holding him back is the main draw and is something to admire. I suppose it's rare to find an xianxia with such a MC being relatively well written (as other xianxia novels with evil MC's tend to be more on the chaotic side with little subtlety), making this novel be attractive to people who look for that kind of thing, but still.
Not everyone in the sub is like that. LOL https://www.reddit.com/r/ReverendInsanity/comments/1bdtyln/shout_out_to_all_the_fang_yuan_wannabes_who_drank/ Also, there is a difference of heaven and earth between the protagonists of Reverend Insanity and Clownlord.
I mean, they like that he is evil and they think it's cool he is evil, is there really a problem with that?
It's almost like....it's fiction! Crazy.
The thing about overlord is that I got into it thinking it was about a regular dude who accidentally ended up as the head of a bunch of op evil people, and he had to pretend to be down for evil while trying to keep them from actually committing atrocities, which I thought was interesting, and at first it was like that. Then, as it went on, he just started being evil too, and it became a story about a bunch of awful people screwing up the world they were dropped into, and I stopped reading it at that point.
The funny part is that there is no incentive to be evil to keep them under control. Outside of those who received explicit orders from their own personal creator (>!like Albedo!<) to act otherwise, all Nazerick NPCs are slavishly devoted to Ainz since he’s one of the Supreme Beings. To the point where they’ll practice 1984 doublethink or straight up refuse to processes anything that would disprove or dissuade them otherwise.
Overlord is pissfart because of it's premise to begin with You got transported to you fav video game, ok cool BUT you're also at max lvl and gear along with fully decked out servants/NPCs at your side, right so what kind of beings im going to fight? Tutorial mobs, that's it (and no, those guys from the theocracy can't do jackshit either) It's the same old power fantasy
He's not transported into his favourite video game, he's transported into a very different world he's not familiar with, and got to keep stuff from the video game he was playing. It is a total power fantasy though. Personally I was always more interested in the natives in setting and how they reacted to the changes brough to them, than I cared about Ainz.
Most of the story isn't even about Ains. And if you paid attention you'd have realized that the new world isn't the videogame world Ains knew
Who the hell thinks he's narratively treated like a good guy? It's a dark fantasy with an evil MC.
Honestly, you can think he's a lighter shade of gray in season 1. Season 2 onwards he's a straightforward villain protagonist. The narrative just don't hammer it, but it's very clear for everybody not drinking the Protagonist Centered Morality.
What particularly evil stuff does he do in the first season? I haven't watched the anime in a while but he was often chaotic good at worst. I think it got darker but for the most part, he was pretty much a "good guy"
The anime censors stuff that clearly paint him as a bad guy. In the incident with Clementine Ainz is supposed to summon several undead monsters to make sure nobody can take the credit of solving the incident from him, this is missing in the anime. And there's the murdering of the adventurer who followed him when he's trying to deal with the Shalltear situation. The guy eho Mare bashed to death and later became the lich in the second season.
I wouldn’t even say the series endorses it or anything, but it was just too depraved to even enjoy after a while
Not really. Overlord has some problems, but Ainz is never portrayed as being morally correct. Even in the early volumes, he's always been shown as being an apathetic monster.
Overlord doesn’t treat it’s MC like the good guy lol it’s just a series where the bad guys win. In the second arc the MC summons monster to kill the people helping him kill monsters so the wouldn’t “Steal his Glory” He was killing the lizard men just cus he needed corpses. LN 12-13 or the new movie cus the genius at madhouse believe a single movie can fit 2 LN Volumes: He has a country half destroyed so he can sent help and eventually take over it. Oh and he is taking over the world cus he didn’t want to seem stupid lol. He literally says I get away with this shit cus I’m strong and “Even I would be oppressed if I were weak” Bloody hell he annihilates a country over some grain Ainz Is evil but sometimes evil people win. I don’t think the story ever portrays him as good.
Seing the bad guys constantly win and do horrible shit without any repercution, will not only get repetitive, is frustrating unless youre a psychopaths that wishes to be like the villian
This isn't true at all. Fiction isn't reality and many people enjoy watching awful things happen in stories without it reflecting on who they are irl. If you don't agree then frankly the problem is yours and you need to learn to separate fiction and reality.
I mean, seeing the good guys constantly win and have happy endings gets old as well. A lot more IMO, because good happy endings are hard to write but bad endings are almost always intriguing just by nature of being bad. "All happy families are alike, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way," as Tolstoy put it. If "bad guy wins" became as common as happy endings they would get tedious, but they are no where near that common. Hell, even in the much edgier 90s they were still a small fraction of media.
Except the difference is that these are awful people we're talking about, sure it's enjoyable on paper, but on practice it feels like someone's revenge fantasy manifesto just because they got bullied or never got laid that may as well had stayed in the attic.
... But I like watching awful people be awful. Because that was neglected by a lot of media for a long time. But angry hermit raging at the world is not a bad description of me, so maybe this is just like attracting like. Though I was never bullied much and I have gotten laid.
good on you for enjoying the whole concpet but it's just not for me honestly, there's no arguing here anymore it's pretty clear we're never gonna get anywhere over personal preferences.
Admittedly I can't speak for everyone, but from my POV at least a happy ending where the good guys win is generally more satisfying. I don't agree with Rarte insofar as the only ones who enjoy watching the villains win are psychopaths, but I'd imagine the majority of people have a much higher tolerance for good endings, just because watching bad guys constantly win seems depressing. Interesting, perhaps, but not necessarily *enjoyable*.
See I just don't get that. It's only satisfying if you actually like and care about the "good guy" characters and that requires some talent in writing (and all other areas if we are talking about something beyond a written story). Otherwise it's like (to use a heavily outdated sports reference) seeing the Yankees win. Like "Woo the totally obvious and expected outcome has occurred!" doesn't make sense to me. It comes down to whether we judge stories as narratives of events that occurred in our world or one like it (that is, one governed by physical rather than narrative laws) or judge them as they actually are, a distinct kind of environment ruled by a lot of conventions that have no relation to how reality works. If a story can suck you in enough to stop viewing it as a story but as a window onto these characters you care about, then yes, a happy ending can be much more satisfying. But if either it or you fail in some way to facilitate that mindset, that immersion, then it becomes exactly like rooting for the 10:1 favorite team in a sport. Boring and pointless to me. Just like I never understood how someone could be a fan of a dominant sports franchise, I never understood how someone could simply like seeing good guys beat bad guys. But I had always identified more with villains than heroes in media. Generally the villain is the one who is either seeking some huge, dramatic change and the hero is the one fighting for the status quo, yawn, or the villain is a predator fulfilling their dark needs and the hero is putting them down like a rabid dog. I've always identified more with the predators and monsters than the people, more with Godzilla and King Kong and Dracula than those trying to stop them. And if I had the choice of dying with my house crushed by Gozilla or a singular and utterly unprecedented miracle of nature like that being destroyed, I'd say crush me Godzilla, you deserve to live more than me because you are exceptional and exciting and I am just a boring person. Now that isn't to say that I never root for the heroes or like them more than the villains. In fact, my go to example of a happy ending that is done well is one of the most insanely sappy, sweet happy endings ever: Kung Fu Hustle. Though I did like the Beast most in that film, seeing the main character triumph in the end is great and the whole movie is just filled with such unrelenting joy it couldn't have ended any other way. It's perfect. But most happy endings aren't like that, they're just a reset to conditions around the beginning of the movie. Boring.
I think the issue lies in the fact that you may be a minority in this sort of thing, and it just comes down to a simple matter of personal preference. I will say, though, that in most cases where a villain would win, regardless of their motivation, it would have consequences that I can't imagine a lot of people finding enjoyable to think about. Usually involving mass death, trails of destruction, persecution, all those sorts of things. For me, it would take even more skill to make a villain's victory enjoyable and/or satisfying. Just as much as the audience has to care about the hero, they'd have to want to care about or at least look past the worst parts of the villain.
Idk man, it depends, like surely there is. Someone out there who is like yeah, man bad guy should win. And watching bad guy winning doesnt say much about people mentality, have u seen thos gore videos, sometimes its just morbid curiousity. Like what, people seeing all the goody 2 shoes mc are actually going to be bleeding heart, kind?
Watching gore videos out of morbid curiosity is a big warning sing that i should stay away from that person, next thing you know they are killing small animals to see their insides or become a cop
Nah disagree there are different ways to write a story then just have the good guys win I mean don't get me wrong you don't have to like it or anything it defo isn't for everyone
Or maybe you like the other aspects of the series like the world building and the characters that get killed or how they are affected by the bad guys they stand no hopes of defeating, yea it will get repetitive if that’s all there is in the story but there are other aspects of it.
Why watch a show where the characters you actually like are fodder that will die just to show how strong and evil the author self insert is just to then move on to do the exact same shit in other new character that is almost a copy paste of events of the previous one
A character dying dose not ruin their character arc hell them overstaying their welcome dose that more often(Marvel,DC) Again I find the world interesting and I also like the Characters on the MC’s side and not every character gets killed. Doubt you’ll care but Volume 12 and 13 are told from the perspective of a New World character who goes from an religious person automatically hating the Undead to someone praising Ainz as Justice because she saw him succeed where the preachy self righteous human hero’s failed you see how she ends up worshiping the person who killed her parents and crippled her country it’s the same type of enjoyment people get out of H.P Lovecraft’s works only we get to understand Cuthulu as well.
Sounds like you like brainwashed generic waifu that joins Self Insert's harem after he humiliate a goody two shoes boy scout, sorry, is just sound like a edgy power sexual fantasy for edgy boys to self insert I must assume you hate characters like Superman and thing that the Injustice version is a more realistic depiction
Of course she sounds like that you aren’t reading 2 volumes but my bullet points, she doesn’t know he’s the cause and thinks he’s the one who solved the problem she has this aspect of dramatic irony to her, but I won’t be able to get 2 volumes across in a comment. And you’d think wrong I like Superman and haven’t even played injustice as for evil superman the version I like is Justice lord from Justice league unlimited? Maybe one the animated ones.
But I don't know why I like Ainz character but not Reudeus. Maybe because Ainz is charmastic and enjoyable to watch for me but not Reudeus.
Murder is more normalized in today’s media than pedophilia
I just perceive Ainz and his group as a gag when doing murders that's why I was able to tolerate those murders and it did not have significant impact on me.
Could be that too but i find people hate more on characters who’s flaws are of a sexual nature more than other kinds of wrongs and definitely think that’s cus violence is more prevalent and also everyone has experienced violence at some point so everyone has experienced why it’s bad.
For me atleast pedophile is worst than murder because you are destroying a life of a kid who do not know anything about world.
Well I disagree cus while the kid can go on and have a life after the event the murdered will not and their life just ends. For clarification I haven’t been sexually assaulted as a child so Can’t speak from experience. And I don’t believe in an afterlife so yea I feel like those biases? Presumptions? Are important to note as I feel like those would greatly affect people’s stances on the matters.
Well oboviously I am against meaningless murders but in fiction it is potrayed as revenge where they deserve it not in real life.
Rudeus is a pedophile that gets rewarded for little changes and his reward is slow aging wifes that look like teens, pedophilia is a more realistic topic than an evil magic empire I just know that Mushoku fans will rain down with their typical "Is a redemption story" "He stops being a pedo(he doesnt)" "He is suppose to be unlikable". Sorry guys we most people dont want to see a history of NAMBlA members getting redimed, normal people who arent otakus with loli figurines want them to rot in jail far away from children
He actually stops being a pedo, because the girls grew up!!! Now he's only just a groomer!!!
Who did he groom?
Elaborate
It's something I like about how the main character from Go Go Loser Ranger is handled. As in, yes, he's far from the worst evil in the setting, and is very much sympathetic due to this. But he's contrasted with characters who have a better moral center like Hibiki Sakurama, and the evils he has done or is doing aren't excused or brushed away. His position is understandable, but the narrative doesn't portray it as the right one. Instead there's a push for him to evolve. It helps that this MC has no compulsion to pretend to the readers that he's a good guy (and that he's pretty tsundere about acknowledging his good nature).
Another reason why it works so well is that oftentimes (especially earlier in the series), anything good that he does isn't actually portrayed as such. Rather, it's either selfish or furthers his agenda
Gina from Brooklyn 99 kinda fits what you’re talking about. Absolutely shitty person, sexually harasses a male officer constantly, but is always portrayed as if she’s in the right.
Y'know wasn't even thinking of that trope, IE: It's *funny* when a women acts like a sexpest the rare trope that applies to real life.
I get it. Some characters from a garbage series are meant to be good if grey but falls flat cause they are boring or they are flat out bad people and its never acknowledge or change or something Say OP is Kratos from GOW original trilogy however the counter exemple to your post?
Depends on What you mean by counter example. I haven't actually experience/remember much of the older games so I can't exactly say anything on God of war and do it justice. But if I recall correctly, from the bits I watched my pop's or got to play while visiting my cousins and the occasional half remembered YouTube cutscene the Olympian gods were very much a "Yeah we did you wrong but we don't want like comeuppance for the whole thing" versus Kratos going"You fuckers made me murder my wife and kids, I'm taking ares skull and the skull of anyone who gets in-between me and them". And not your shitty Manhwa villain "Man I enjoy being a sadistic bastard for no personal gain and making faces, that would make Yami Bakura ask me to chill the fuck out if he saw, also I get personally offended at the *idea* that someone would dare to point out let alone try and get justice for my actions" antagonist's. Nor anyone going"have you asked the gods if their sowwy about killing your family"
Kratos throughout GOW 2 and 3 I would say is such an awful piece of shit, that the attempts to make the gods seem like douchey jackasses utterly fail to make him "kind of have a point". GOW 3 is still one of my favorite games ever, but Kratos i genuinely so unpleasant and despicable I would prefer it if they had just gone "yeah you are playing the bad guy" instead of trying to force some form of sympathetic angle in there.
I'll take your word for it, I did say I couldn't do it justice so that's probably more accurate
Its worth giving a playthrough, shoddy writing aside. The gameplay is disgustingly fun
One of the things I like about *Reverend Insanity* is that it never tries to portray the MC as a good person. Some of his enemies are pretty bad people, but a lot of them are portrayed as decent, and in general there's a wide range of people with different outlooks and moral views.
I think the problem lies with the writers refusing to make their villain protagonist sympathetic but also refusing to make the heroes sympathetic You either don’t commit crimes and are sympathetic while bringing a sick sense of Justice Or everyone just sucks more to make the main characters look better Villain protagonist aren’t allowed to be villains since most of the protagonist love depends on their charisma
Most audiences have an innate sense of justice, meaning that there is a bunch of dissonance between when the author thinks something is good vs when it's actually in front of the audience. The best example of this is highly politically charged conent written by someone who is blindedly by their own biases, meaning that they have a weirdly warped sense of good and bad. Best example of this is the New Guy comic that was a meme a few years ago. Basic summary, the author self insert is snickering because Pewdiepie got robbed, New Guy at work appeals to the golden rule and says "hey, you wouldn't be happy if you got robbed, think of how he feels", she is then snarky to him and makes him sad. The author assumed the audience would agree with her since Pewdiepie is a rich and successful guy, so clearly him being robbed is a good thing. Basically, it's not great when there is strong dissonance between the morals of the viewer and the author, a lot of these MCs are the result of wish fulfillment coming from a bad place.
>And a lot of the times I've seen fans defend it with themian arguments in which, "X was necessary because of Y action" only works when the narrative does it well it doesnt matter if in universe there's some reason why they were totally justified (She had Yin poisoning I had to rape her in her sleep, they attacked first if I didn't strike back it'd look like I'm weak, needed to charge absolutely vital plot mcguffin) because it's ultimately one the author made up. Looks like you've had the unfortunate experience of interacting with Nano machine fans
The only thing I know about Nano machine is that it's a cultivation novel, nor even talked to its fans. Yet I've already experienced the exact thing you're talking about.
The MC of Nano Machine rapes a woman to save her life and he also murders a shit ton of people and Nano Machine fans consistently defend it with their life. The worst instance of that has to be when a woman who had been kidnapped and held captive by pirates for a few years developed Stockholms syndrome and refused to leave with him so he snapped her neck and kidnapped her newborn baby
From my like old recollections, the mc was initially like a good guy like a common Cultivation mc. He was in a demonic family and didn't like the violence but he eventually grows into the classic ruthless to enemies thing which is still in line with most mcs. But around when he became the leader of the heavenly demon sect or whatever it's called, he just becomes ruthless and the author spins it as an oh he has no mercy, and as a badass thing when going against other characters. The problem is this leading to him straight up being evil half the time, ignoring his initial character entirely.
Pretty much summed up all my gripes with the Joker movie
Except the joker is definitely seen as a villain, if a sympathetic one.
Yeah but almost everyone else is cartoonishly evil and callous for the sheer sake of it, or they’re too incompetent/unaware to understand what Joker is going through, making it seem as if Joker’s rampage is justified
Many people love when assholes are presented as a good guys Ex: videos praising the Kill dozer receive massive and positive reactions
Especially if they're good looking/cute. Saying this as a gal.
Or Bakugo in MHA I suppose
Bakugo is pretty consistently shown to be very competent at saving lives, though. He's just also an asshole.
Hiro from Darling in the franxx moment
Check out the first law trilogy you'll like it because one of the mc there is loved by some of its people but also hated, because of his past and what he did later in the books. Only one person view him as a good guy
Peak book series
Honestly the one show this reminds me of is Yellowstone.
Meanwhile, Rance is the coolest guy ever
Haven't played but I hear the games don't try to go "actually his rapiness and womanizing is for a good reason" so I'd give *that* a thumbs up.
The games make zero attempt to say that his horniness is an actually good trait, just that it leads to genuine heroics because he will do anything to get laid. There is also like, a genuine difference between how the industry was back in 1989 when it started, and 2018 when it finished so his change as a character reflects how the times have changed
Ah yeah that sounds *interesting* and not trying to have the cake and eat it too.
When I first read Shamo, I was like "The MC has killed his parents, but he's clearly traumatized by them, but maybe this story is about him getting better?" No, he gets worse. It was about him exploring his darkness for his own selfish desires. And it's a good ass manga. (Didn't read part 2)
I disagree. You're missing out is all I'm saying
Wdym? Like the trop I described was "writing an evil character but constantly copping them out so they're never actually the bad guy in a situation, turning black into grey at best and white with bad pr at worst'
.....Then don't watch anime if you don't like this sort of thing??
The fuck you mean don't watch anime if I don't like this sort of thing. I never said anything *about* anime specifically I talked about a very specific form of bad writing that applies to every form of media. Secondly that's an invalid response like a solid 99% of the time because enjoying a medium doesn't mean you can't have legitimate complaints or gripes, nor is it wrong to wish it was better.
Though the writing in it is generally bad, I did appreciate how Reincarnated as a Dragon Hatchling's pushed the protagonist to be "evil". When presented with no good options to save a village, he concludes that an evil act would let him evolve into something capable of winning, and tears an ally's head off. Sure you can say it was justified and the man would have agreed to it, but he is still basically sacrificing someone for more power. It was even foreshadowed a bit by earlier explanations of how evolutions worked, and was a genuinely clever moment for the protagonist. Honestly the only well thought out moment in the story so far...
Yeah I absolutely hate Deadpool too.
Personally I wouldn't count Deadpool in the same group, He's a sociopath who doesn't feel empathy proper but most I've seen never really paint his every action as being justified and reasonable either compared to his enemies or the situation. I think you can get away with a sociopathic character who doesn't feel much remorse but it needs to be written in a way where the author isn't going "But of course it was the most pragmatic option"
I suppose in his case it's more like he's funny and breaks the rules of comics which appeals to the audience and that basically sets him up as a sympathetic character. The author doesn't exactly step down into the narrative and say that 'this was okay' but he frequently ends up saving the day... by being a murderous sociopath. His comics aren't really concerned with the morality of the situation because hey, he just defused an unstable nuclear reactor, what's not to like? Who cares if he shot some people just because they annoyed him? There's no need for anyone to get out citations to some ethical philosophy because his fanbase doesn't need or want that kind of justification- "he's a good guy because he likes boobies and 4th wall jokes just like me". I'll freely admit my experience of it is pretty limited to maybe like 10 comics, but because this very trope annoys me so much, I'd really rather lose an argument about it than read more. I'm looking back at your original post and I want to clarify- the authors don't go through each of his individual actions and say why they're good, but he's definitely set up as a sympathetic character in general, and that feeds back to his actions.
Yeah I get what your saying, I suppose that's the Comedic/Likeable sociopath effect, a character who yeah if you objectively look at their actions, behavior and effects are pretty terrible but are funny and relatable enough to not hate. They're close to each other but I honestly think Deadpool's comedic sociopath tendencies are a lot better written than most "Pragmatic Villainous" protagonists I read. I suppose that's because more personality peaks through which makes him more likeable compared to a gray rock who does bad things but gets the author get out of jail free card of "It was necessary" I can see why you wouldn't like Deadpool though fourth wall and comedic sociopath bits get...tiring really quickly unless the writer is real good.
It's not even the only thing. In his own comics, he's frequently shown to be clowning on the heroes and just throwing their lows and struggles in their faces because of course he knows about them, not that he knows that in their comics, they worked through those issues and rose above them. He's like an audience self-insert character, but only the segment of the audience that thinks comics are too moralistic and serious or something- perhaps liking them as kids, but then growing into the unbearable kind of teenager who thinks taking care to do the right thing is only for kids. There's such a thing as constructive criticism, done out of genuine concern, and then there's just mindless hate and it only appeals to those who hated the surrounding fictional universe in this case.The fact of the matter is, you can only have fun destroying things for so long before they're just destroyed and there's nothing left. They even did a special called 'Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe' where he just character assassinates, literally and figuratively, every major IP, and then goes after the writers. Like, I'm sorry, but how do you enjoy this as a fan of literally anything Marvel has ever done? It's not fan fiction; it's hater fiction, and I hate it.
Fucking Deadpool kills the universe, I fucking hate it. I don't think any iteration of X kills the X universe has ever *not* been terrible bullshit.
Rimuru and milim moment
[удалено]
Why criticize something you haven't read?