This is great, thanks. I usually try and build as quickly as possible rather than take the time to find the perfect spot. Usually anything with at least 1 resource tile will do, but the HG idea is a damn good one...... in fact I'm going to fire up CivII now and try it out..
I used to always build immediately also - it's a bit counterintuitive to enter an Exploration phase but the only limiting factor turns out to be another Civ beating you to the HG's. If you build right off the bat you're also vulnerable to a random barbarian strike against a defenseless First city, typically a game losing event.
I recently posted about my best ever start (albeit on Prince level) and this was significantly boosted by goodie huts early on and in fact as you’ve said gave me the units to quickly knock out two rival Civs. I’ve never thought of going after them as a strategy before my first city, although I do try and find at a two resource spot (preferably three and ideally four). I’ve always found barbarians to be an absolute killer on deity, I’ve tried playing to Apolyton’s strategy but usually lose the race to build key wonders because research is so slow. It’s such a different game on the harder levels as the strategies that work at lower levels don’t work at all. I have a few questions about your strategy I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts, I’ll use your numbered points:
1. How many goodie huts do you normally consider enough? Is your strategy altered when you start with 2 settler units?
2. I’ve often found that I’m too far behind unless placing my first reasonably quickly, how often have you placed your first city later than say 2000BC and still been able to build Hanging Gardens?
3. Agree Hanging Gardens is a key wonder, as are all those that provide happiness especially at high levels. What is your next must build (other than Mike’s)?
4. Agree - presumably you’re then aiming for researching the Republic?
5. Building that many cities on deity must be challenging to manage/defend. Do you keep them close together (ie 2 empty squares away from the next) sacrificing future growth and proximity to resource tiles in favour of a more compact empire where units can be moved from one city to the next in a single turn, or do you continue to pick prime spots for early cities and fill in the gaps later risking overextending in favour of more productive cities?
6. Agree. Would also note that later in the game (when cities should be properly defended anyway) the barbarian bribe can rise to nearly the entire contents of your treasury.
7. Agreed.
8. At which point do you stop? My initial building plans for each city is usually something like settler>warrior>settler>temple>library>marketplace>harbour>aqueduct>city walls>factory>bank. I’ll play around a bit with the order for example building walls earlier where neighbouring other civs or temples earlier if a city is problematic for happiness. Obviously Wonders are inserted as and when they become available and trump the next civilian building especially if key. My key wonders and typically the happiness and science boosting one’s with others built if able.
9 and 10. absolutely
11. My slight variation is I would move to republic after building oracle (as well as hanging gardens). Then democracy after building Mike’s and Bach’s.
12. Do you leave irrigation to this point as well? Cities (if we’ll placed) generally don’t need irrigating to get to size 8 or even 12 (I acknowledge that it takes longer which can be beneficial at deity in terms of managing happiness).
13. What improvements would you generally have in your city before embarking on mass caravan ing?
Sorry that turned out to be long reply.
Thanks for the detailed reply! I agree that different strategies are needed in Deity because Population control is such a challenge and that alone is a big reason the HG's are needed for the ideal "runaway" start. I'll answer a few questions at a time and come back and edit:
1) I assume a two-settler start. I'll usually "scramble" the settlers in different directions and generally sweep them back towards each other because you typically want the second Settler to build the second city in relatively close proximity to the Palace to avoid big trade losses due to corruption, all the while searching for Whales and hitting as many GH's as possible. There is no right amount - the more the merrier. Typically, it's time to build after 1) 15-20 turns or 2) I have found the ideal Capital spot and have a handful of GH military units to carry on Exploration....
2) My main post had an error - I meant to say that HG construction should begin no later than 1000 BC. Before you can start the HG, you need to have built 2-3 Settler units for expansion as well as a Temple.
....
3) Next up after Mike's is Leo's
5) One of the benefits of the Exploration process is that Barbarian threats will often take 3 or 4 turns to strike the nearest city when the map is more fully explored. There's a big difference between that, and a strike that occurs on the same turn or the next turn, because you can prep a defense by rushing a Horseman or Diplomat to confront the threat. Control is a big problem because as you expand, unrest increases. This is why the HG's and Mike's are must-have wonders because without them expansion is curtailed significantly. In terms of city overlap, I try and avoid it because it caps eventual upside but will accept some overlap if needed. I would never build a city in the territory grid of another city though
8) For regular cities, the build plan is Warrior and then set and forget on Settlers. I'll revisit as needed to add an additional Warrior for control, or Horseman for barbarian defense. The focus typically moves from Settler expansion to internal city improvements with the transition to Republic because of the high cost of Settler support. I'll check my City Status list to see which cities have unusually high trade - these are immediate Library rushes, if they don't have a Library already and also Marketplace, University and Bank. After the big Republic slowdown I'll still build cities, but on a very selective basis (triple or quadruple bonus, river and/or Whales)
12) Ideally every square that gets production is fully developed with roads and Irrigation at the moment that the extra population allows for the extra production. In the very early game the roads are a bigger deal because of the trade. But having a big Food surplus is important to growth because one of the conditions of rapid We Love The Queen Day growth under Republic is that a net food surplus is in effect, and having a big surplus (6-7-8) gives you flexibility to hit the other requirement, majority Happy population, with Entertainers, while maintaining the food surplus. In the early game definitely err on the side of getting the Settlers out to build new Cities rather than Irrigation, though, with the exception of the Capital where all active squares should be irrigated or mined
Thanks for the replies - it’s always good to hear other thoughts on strategy for such a classic game. I’ve just started a game and used the hut first tactic. Yielded 7 horseman, 1 chariot and 2 archers and have discovered my whole mini continent. Founded my city a bit late (950 BC) but while I was exploring I did have my 2 settlers build a full set of roads around the site so hopefully that’ll boost me a bit.
Interestingly one hut did unleash a horde of barbarians before I founded any cities.
Nice! That sounds like a Runaway situation with the Huts. No need to build more than one road pre-city, though - only do terrain improvements where there is or will soon be actual resource production
Yeah with hindsight it was far too late to found my city, I missed out on all the ancient wonders and the Zulus landed and immediately wiped out half my units 🤦♂️. Abandoned ship, lesson learned. Started a new game, founded my first city (Rome) around 2200BC with 4 resource tiles (2 whale, 1 fish, 1 pheasant). Wiped out the Zulus on the same continent with my hut army. Up to about 900 AD now, have HG and Colossus in my capital with library and marketplace. Researching polytheism now before monotheism, already have the capital building oracle which I’ll switch to Mike’s. Capital is already size 8. I have 8 or 9 other cities all on settler duty. Get the impression I’m ahead in tech. Best start I’ve managed on deity.
This is great, thanks. I usually try and build as quickly as possible rather than take the time to find the perfect spot. Usually anything with at least 1 resource tile will do, but the HG idea is a damn good one...... in fact I'm going to fire up CivII now and try it out..
I used to always build immediately also - it's a bit counterintuitive to enter an Exploration phase but the only limiting factor turns out to be another Civ beating you to the HG's. If you build right off the bat you're also vulnerable to a random barbarian strike against a defenseless First city, typically a game losing event.
I recently posted about my best ever start (albeit on Prince level) and this was significantly boosted by goodie huts early on and in fact as you’ve said gave me the units to quickly knock out two rival Civs. I’ve never thought of going after them as a strategy before my first city, although I do try and find at a two resource spot (preferably three and ideally four). I’ve always found barbarians to be an absolute killer on deity, I’ve tried playing to Apolyton’s strategy but usually lose the race to build key wonders because research is so slow. It’s such a different game on the harder levels as the strategies that work at lower levels don’t work at all. I have a few questions about your strategy I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts, I’ll use your numbered points: 1. How many goodie huts do you normally consider enough? Is your strategy altered when you start with 2 settler units? 2. I’ve often found that I’m too far behind unless placing my first reasonably quickly, how often have you placed your first city later than say 2000BC and still been able to build Hanging Gardens? 3. Agree Hanging Gardens is a key wonder, as are all those that provide happiness especially at high levels. What is your next must build (other than Mike’s)? 4. Agree - presumably you’re then aiming for researching the Republic? 5. Building that many cities on deity must be challenging to manage/defend. Do you keep them close together (ie 2 empty squares away from the next) sacrificing future growth and proximity to resource tiles in favour of a more compact empire where units can be moved from one city to the next in a single turn, or do you continue to pick prime spots for early cities and fill in the gaps later risking overextending in favour of more productive cities? 6. Agree. Would also note that later in the game (when cities should be properly defended anyway) the barbarian bribe can rise to nearly the entire contents of your treasury. 7. Agreed. 8. At which point do you stop? My initial building plans for each city is usually something like settler>warrior>settler>temple>library>marketplace>harbour>aqueduct>city walls>factory>bank. I’ll play around a bit with the order for example building walls earlier where neighbouring other civs or temples earlier if a city is problematic for happiness. Obviously Wonders are inserted as and when they become available and trump the next civilian building especially if key. My key wonders and typically the happiness and science boosting one’s with others built if able. 9 and 10. absolutely 11. My slight variation is I would move to republic after building oracle (as well as hanging gardens). Then democracy after building Mike’s and Bach’s. 12. Do you leave irrigation to this point as well? Cities (if we’ll placed) generally don’t need irrigating to get to size 8 or even 12 (I acknowledge that it takes longer which can be beneficial at deity in terms of managing happiness). 13. What improvements would you generally have in your city before embarking on mass caravan ing? Sorry that turned out to be long reply.
Thanks for the detailed reply! I agree that different strategies are needed in Deity because Population control is such a challenge and that alone is a big reason the HG's are needed for the ideal "runaway" start. I'll answer a few questions at a time and come back and edit: 1) I assume a two-settler start. I'll usually "scramble" the settlers in different directions and generally sweep them back towards each other because you typically want the second Settler to build the second city in relatively close proximity to the Palace to avoid big trade losses due to corruption, all the while searching for Whales and hitting as many GH's as possible. There is no right amount - the more the merrier. Typically, it's time to build after 1) 15-20 turns or 2) I have found the ideal Capital spot and have a handful of GH military units to carry on Exploration.... 2) My main post had an error - I meant to say that HG construction should begin no later than 1000 BC. Before you can start the HG, you need to have built 2-3 Settler units for expansion as well as a Temple. ....
3) Next up after Mike's is Leo's 5) One of the benefits of the Exploration process is that Barbarian threats will often take 3 or 4 turns to strike the nearest city when the map is more fully explored. There's a big difference between that, and a strike that occurs on the same turn or the next turn, because you can prep a defense by rushing a Horseman or Diplomat to confront the threat. Control is a big problem because as you expand, unrest increases. This is why the HG's and Mike's are must-have wonders because without them expansion is curtailed significantly. In terms of city overlap, I try and avoid it because it caps eventual upside but will accept some overlap if needed. I would never build a city in the territory grid of another city though
8) For regular cities, the build plan is Warrior and then set and forget on Settlers. I'll revisit as needed to add an additional Warrior for control, or Horseman for barbarian defense. The focus typically moves from Settler expansion to internal city improvements with the transition to Republic because of the high cost of Settler support. I'll check my City Status list to see which cities have unusually high trade - these are immediate Library rushes, if they don't have a Library already and also Marketplace, University and Bank. After the big Republic slowdown I'll still build cities, but on a very selective basis (triple or quadruple bonus, river and/or Whales)
12) Ideally every square that gets production is fully developed with roads and Irrigation at the moment that the extra population allows for the extra production. In the very early game the roads are a bigger deal because of the trade. But having a big Food surplus is important to growth because one of the conditions of rapid We Love The Queen Day growth under Republic is that a net food surplus is in effect, and having a big surplus (6-7-8) gives you flexibility to hit the other requirement, majority Happy population, with Entertainers, while maintaining the food surplus. In the early game definitely err on the side of getting the Settlers out to build new Cities rather than Irrigation, though, with the exception of the Capital where all active squares should be irrigated or mined
Thanks for the replies - it’s always good to hear other thoughts on strategy for such a classic game. I’ve just started a game and used the hut first tactic. Yielded 7 horseman, 1 chariot and 2 archers and have discovered my whole mini continent. Founded my city a bit late (950 BC) but while I was exploring I did have my 2 settlers build a full set of roads around the site so hopefully that’ll boost me a bit. Interestingly one hut did unleash a horde of barbarians before I founded any cities.
Nice! That sounds like a Runaway situation with the Huts. No need to build more than one road pre-city, though - only do terrain improvements where there is or will soon be actual resource production
Yeah with hindsight it was far too late to found my city, I missed out on all the ancient wonders and the Zulus landed and immediately wiped out half my units 🤦♂️. Abandoned ship, lesson learned. Started a new game, founded my first city (Rome) around 2200BC with 4 resource tiles (2 whale, 1 fish, 1 pheasant). Wiped out the Zulus on the same continent with my hut army. Up to about 900 AD now, have HG and Colossus in my capital with library and marketplace. Researching polytheism now before monotheism, already have the capital building oracle which I’ll switch to Mike’s. Capital is already size 8. I have 8 or 9 other cities all on settler duty. Get the impression I’m ahead in tech. Best start I’ve managed on deity.