Wait, are you implying that you have control over your own actions, and don't expect everybody else to cater to your lifestyle?
I have been told that isn't possible.
Haven't Americans always given more leeway when it comes to religious freedoms, both legally and socially?
If I say that I am unavailable to work on the Sabbath then a business owner may well work with me even if they aren't necessarily legally required. If I make the personal choice to not work Saturday/Sunday then that decision is much less respected.
Especially when this is just a business trying to make their practices more appealing to a wider range of employees. That is just capitalism.
Thank you, I did miss that. Although I think my point stands. The people in these comments who are opposed to this idea, are mostly conservative Americans in this sub.
We have to have immigrants, because they're just like us.
We have to reform every aspect of society, to include our new immigrants who are different from us.
So depending on the current situation of the country, it can make sense to alter constitutional ideals? In general I agree but I didn't think that was the dominating opinion in this sub.
I totally agree. The comment I'm replying to really didn't have anything to do with what a private law firm does either. No one forced them to try to appeal to a larger base of employees.
I think thats part of the point, the idea that they are a protected class while being the opposite of vulnerable is insulting to those who could actually use it. Personally I don't think there should be any protected classes, kind of a slap in the face for equality
For real. I didn't abuse alcohol but stopped drinking years ago out of boredom. I have no qualms with hanging out at a bar anyway, it's a social joint. Grab some wings and a NA beer and hang out. NA beer has come a LONG way since O'douls, it's awesome now. These people are weak if our culture has to adapt to THEM.
It's 'urged' by a recruitment company. It's not any type of statute. I rarely drink any more either but I do find it odd when people urge others to drink or do drugs when they've already turned them down. But this is the UK and they love their pubs. I think I read that in the late medieval era there was a pub for every 50 people in London.
How about we all go back to living our best lives like grown-ups and stop worrying what someone else thinks what is best for us. So tired of all the bullshit going on in this country.
"A report by Rare, a UK graduate recruitment company specialising in diversity, said the legal profession’s “big drinking culture” is unfair to those who abstain from alcohol."
This is in the UK, to be fair. "The Telegraph" is a big British tabloid.
This piece is referring to “city law firms”, by “city” they mean “City of London.” Work socials will usually be at a pub, if you’ve got a private area roped off for your social there *will* probably be a minimum spend.
But (a) the firm is probably covering it, (b) non-alcoholic drinks, snacks etc cost money too, and (c) I lived in London and worked in the City for 14 years, most of the lads will blow through the minimum spend in under an hour.
I've never been to a pub that would force you to buy acholic drinks.
They may get arsy if the whole table ordered tap water (unsure if same in the us but you can't charge for it in the uk) but as long as your buying drinks they're happy.
Besides a pint of coke costs pubs less than 10p (if postmix) a pint of anything else is roughly 1/3 to a half of what they charge you...
Lots of pubs will not even charge for post mix drinks if your driving and with others who are drinking because who gives a shit about 10p
Please name one place where this is the case. I've traveled all over the world and have never been in a place where you are required to buy an alcoholic drink. You can get a Coke and satisfy the drink requirement.
I have never seen a place force you to buy alcohol, especially if you let them know that you are the designated driver and/or don't drink. Some places will even offer a free soda or even an appetizer to the designated driver.
How about, no.
Muslims also believe women shouldn’t be working, driving, or educated. Without a man’s permission.
Should employers stop employing women to make Muslims happy?
Actually, the left probably would do this.
>Muslims also believe women shouldn’t be working, driving, or educated. Without a man’s permission.
That'll happen when their population + the most moronic wokies can outvote normals. It's a decade or two away in the UK but their governments are trying to hurry it along.
How about if I take my Christian beliefs to a Muslim country. Are they going to change their way of life to make me feel like I fit in? Absolutely not. Why is only the United States expected to change for someone else's beliefs? Assimilation (or lack there of) is a huge factor of why there exists xenophobia. I just want to be left alone to do what I want to do and I want you to be left alone to do what you want, also.
Al-Qarawiyyin, the oldest university in the world, was founded by a Muslim woman - with money she inherited from her father. The largest, and fanciest, all-female university on the planet is in Saudi Arabia - who also has the highest percentage of female doctorates. They are also the only ones who speak English in rural areas. Arab men jump out of their skin when women bark orders at them. Frankly, it’s pathetic. I was telling my friends that it wasn’t the 12th century anymore and they don’t have to put up with that shit, then I got kicked out of a Starbucks in Jeddah by one of the most beautiful girls I have ever seen because she thought I looked in her general direction (I did, anybody would have). I scurried out like a puppy then she told my girlfriend off for not having me on a tighter leash and my Saudi friends all laughed their asses off at me. Yes, they are different than we are but we have also been fed a lot of stories about what their world is really like.
>Al-Qarawiyyin, the oldest university in the world, was founded by a Muslim woman - with money she inherited from her father.
Could she have earned it on her own?
>The largest, and fanciest, all-female university on the planet is in Saudi Arabia - who also has the highest percentage of female doctorates.
That's because, unlike civilized societies, women are unable to attend coed universities. And those doctorates are in what?
>They are also the only ones who speak English in rural areas
Dunno what this is supposed to be.
>Arab men jump out of their skin when women bark orders at them.
Then how are they constantly assailing women in the West? How are these fierce women kept as chattel?
> I was telling my friends that it wasn’t the 12th century anymore and they don’t have to put up with that shit, then I got kicked out of a Starbucks in Jeddah by one of the most beautiful girls I have ever seen because she thought I looked in her general direction (I did, anybody would have).
Uncovered? In Jeddah? BS.
>Yes, they are different than we are but we have also been fed a lot of stories about what their world is really like.
You're talking about a rich subset of a rich country, which is still horrific in terms of civil rights.
I think discussing outliers as if they are a regular occurrence is dishonest at best. You have presented wonderful examples of cultural diversity, however if someone were to go to a Muslim majority nation observing Sharia law they know what they can expect.
Citing a hyper woke trans inclusive and all the current things christian church and trying to act like that's the norm for the Christian religion is completely dishonest and the exact same thing you're doing.
The comment above yours is about how "they" sell children into slavery. That is probably more dishonest than someone giving their experiences in the Middle East.
How about we do whatever we want, and if a religion prevents the person from joining, they do not join?
Since when does one person's religion govern the actions of other people?
Don't tell me it always has -- it hasn't. Use of violence to impose religious will is not an example of voluntary governance, lol.
This is for work mandatory events, probably.
It is awkward. A guy I worked with would make his team do a Friday lunch at a strip club. The club had amazing food, but it was also mandatory.
If its drinks after work, it can also keep you out of the social circles that drive promotions and advancement or opportunity. Thats bad too.
A better question is: can people go to a Bar and not drink? yes. Can people go to a strip club and not be surrounded by naked people? No.
And that would mean that companies shouldnt be engaged in public "Pride" events, since they are basically public strip clubs.
There’s a big difference between meeting up at a place that serves alcohol & some guy “making his team do …lunch at a *strip club*.”
As far as networking or schmoozing opportunities, most people in sales/law/politics/etc. understand that doing stuff like playing golf or meeting up for drinks is a normal part of the game in Western culture.
I feel like a lot of folks online live in a bubble where they think advancement/promotion/success is purely based on how well you “do your job” and ignore that in the real world it usually also really matters how well you get along with others (including bonding with the group), and how much people like you.
Displaying the Quran doesnt make me Islamic.
Also, the 10 Commandments is very much part of the dominant culture. 2% of people in Louisiana are not culturally or directly aligned with the 10 Commandments. Those 2 percent also generally have a version of the 10 commandments. People act like the 10 commandments somehow are insulting or pushing religion on people. Its really hard to make that argument when even wildly disconnected systems (like Asian) developed very similar rules to live by. Additionally, Atheists and Agnostics do grow their beliefs along the same guidelines, typically, either through the dominant culture around them, or the legal system they create.
Hindi has the Dharma, Buddhism has the Five Precepts, Sikhism has The Three Pillars and The Five Thieves, Jainism has The Five Vows, etc.
| Ten Commandments | Judaism (Ten Commandments) | Islam (Five Pillars/Key Principles) | Hinduism (Yamas) | Buddhism (Five Precepts) | Sikhism (Five Thieves) | Jainism (Mahavratas) | Shinto | Taoism | Confucianism |
|--------------------------------------|----------------------------------|--------------------------------------|----------------------------|---------------------------|-------------------------------|-----------------------------|-------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----------------------------------|
| 1. You shall have no other gods (Monotheism) | No other gods | Tawhid (Oneness of God) | | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | | **(Implicit in Kami)** | **(Implicit in Tao)** | **(Implicit in Tian)** |
| 2. You shall not make idols (No Idols) | No idols | Tawhid (Oneness of God) | | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | | **(Implicit in Kami)** | **(Implicit in Tao)** | **(Implicit in Tian)** |
| 3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain (Respect God's Name) | No misuse of God's name | **(Implicit in Shahada)** | **(Implicit in Satya)** | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | **(Implicit in Satya)** | **(Implicit in Respect for Kami)** | **(Implicit in Respect for Tao)** | **(Implicit in Respect for Tian)**|
| 4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (Sabbath) | Keep Sabbath holy | **(Implicit in Salat)** | | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | **(Implicit in Aparigraha)**| | **(Implicit in Rituals)** | **(Implicit in Rituals)** |
| 5. Honor your father and your mother (Honor Parents) | Honor parents | **(Implicit in Zakat)** | | **(Implicit in Respect)** | **(Implicit in Kirat Karni)** | | **(Implicit in Respect for Elders)** | **(Implicit in Filial Piety)** | **(Implicit in Filial Piety)** |
| 6. You shall not murder (No Murder) | No murder | **(Implicit in Quran 17:33)** | Ahimsa | Refrain from taking life | **Ahimsa (Non-violence)** | Ahimsa | **(Implicit in Non-harm)** | **(Implicit in Non-harm)** | **(Implicit in Ren)** |
| 7. You shall not commit adultery (No Adultery) | No adultery | **(Implicit in Quran 17:32)** | Brahmacharya | Refrain from sexual misconduct | **(Implicit in Faithfulness)** | Brahmacharya | **(Implicit in Purity)** | **(Implicit in Purity)** | **(Implicit in Moral Conduct)** |
| 8. You shall not steal (No Stealing) | No stealing | **(Implicit in Quran 5:38)** | Asteya | Refrain from taking what is not given | **(Implicit in Kirat Karni)** | Asteya | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Yi)** |
| 9. You shall not bear false witness (No False Witness) | No false witness | **(Implicit in Quran 24:30)** | Satya | Refrain from false speech | **(Implicit in Satya)** | Satya | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Yi)** |
| 10. You shall not covet (No Coveting) | No coveting | **(Implicit in Zakat)** | Aparigraha | **(Implicit in Non-greed)**| **Non-attachment** | Aparigraha | **(Implicit in Contentment)** | **(Implicit in Contentment)** | **(Implicit in Moral Conduct)** |
Well its a uk article lol but that actually makes it worse because uk pubs aren't like American bars, uk pubs are way more family centered. Many sell childrens drinks, ice cream, great food including Sunday roast and playgrounds in the garden. Sure some pubs are like amerian bars but most arent, its a family friendly gathering place
There are tons of American bars like that too. There are a bunch of different kinds of bars to go to, depending on what kind of vibe you're looking for. Some American bars are like pubs.
I guess that would depend on which state as the places ive lived those would be incredibly rare. Uk pubs are a different thing with most being like i described. I knew many muslims both practicing and not who'd go to sunday roast, quiz night or other events at local pubs it really is a community gathering place but the uk has changed alot since ive lived there. Brixit and covid fucked everything up lol
I'd say a UK pub is close in nature to what an icehouse is in Texas. It was basically a community center that sold beer for the adults, cold drinks for the kids, and food for everybody. Growing up my family would be down there at least once or twice a week so the adults could hang out and the kids would be turned loose to go play out back.
Im american lol pubs are far more mellow. Guys stop buy at pubs to grab a coffee and read a book lol they often have decent sized gardens in the back to chill with family or whatever. Most have dog treats and shit. I used to go play chess and have coffee at my local pub when i was living in the uk. My entire point is muslims are crazy to be anti pub, many serve halal food because its profitable
In the UK, socializing at a pub is a very important part of the culture. If Muslim immigrants don't like it, they can gtfo. I'm not going to move to a foreign country and then get upset that they aren't accommodating to everything I want. Nobody should expect that.
Exactly. Can you imagine moving to a Muslim country and making them start opening pubs? Why is this stuff being tolerated? Why do their beliefs and customs trump ours?
If you go to a cooking class with Muslims, instead of the pub as is tradition, then they will also demand that everything that’s made be halal. There’s no reasonable appeasement with a culture that is opposed to you.
Ah, sure thing. I'll just rearrange western society to accommodate to appease the followers of an 8th century barbarian religion. I'll get right on that.
If this memo said women should start covering their heads to avoid insulting muslim men, there would be liberal "feminists" asking what color hijab they should wear.
We should actually just b@n all other religions like hinduism christianity Judaism and also atheism and impose sharia so that world can finally be in peace 🤓 it's so frustrating to see white supermacist nazi hindutva extremist to not let sharia be imposed . Only under sharia women and LGBTQ will have freedom .
/s
Ah Muslims are special eh? So change the culture to match their outward Muslim behaviours? Plenty of Muslims drunk, do drugs, and sell both. Maybe jobs that do involve socialising are not for Muslims.
We had a team meeting at work that included lunch during Ramadan. Our Muslim co-worker didn't eat but now I'm wondering if she may have had grounds for a complaint over that.
Ramadan is a month long. Could the meeting have waited a month? Would a dinner meeting have interfered with iftar? Is your coworker bowing toward Mecca for prayer?
It was timed for our re-org, so no, it wouldn't have been possible to reschedule outside of Ramadan. She didn't say anything, I only know that because I asked why she wasn't eating. She was super friendly and chill about it. This was in the US East Coast btw.
How about just don't have work socials. I already spend the majority of my life working I don't need to spend what should be free time socializing with work people
HR at my job had a training where one of the lessons was that it’s exclusionary to have an after-work social event at a bar since some employees have children and can’t attend, and there had been complaints.
People that work in HR are lower than telemarketers in my book.
Can't buy alcohol at cookery and pottery classes so what sort of sense does that make? If a Muslim does not want to buy alcohol at the pub, nobody is forcing them to.
Every bar has non-alcoholic beverages to drink, many also have very tasty mocktails too, I drank a bunch of those when keeping solidarity with my wife's inability to drink while pregnant. If your community is looking down on you for holding to your beliefs while in an environment that's full of "temptation" rather than celebrating that willpower, that certainly says something about your community.
I work with several devout Muslims. 2 that works directly for me. We regularly meet up for beers and bullshit after work, the Muslim guys are regular attendees. They just don't drink beer. That's it. They can still sit around with us and bullshit and drink a soda or tea. No idea why people like to make such a big deal put of everything.
Agreed. People would be VERY surprised to learn that there is a sizable and ever growing amount of "Americanized" Muslims who actually WILL drink a beer or two 🍻 usually Pork is still a No-Go, but like even the best tipsy vegetarian who sometimes slips on a chicken wing every now and again, there are a few who have savored the taste of a great bacon burger. It's really not that serious. The same as Christians, Jews and anyone else here... you "do your best" and it's the faith in God that really counts. Many of us are just trying to live "normal" lives. Things don't have to always be so serious.
In the past I'd guess the brits would have said "Sod yer goffers, ye plonky poundah! We're off to the pooob and yer bang outta ordah! Turrah!!", buuuuuut seeing as how we're dealing with modern brits, they'll probably grumble and fold.
I went to plenty of work events centered around alcohol when I was doing dry Jan and Feb. I simply drank club soda with lime and enjoyed the free food that came with the event.
As a wisconsinite you are allowed to not drink in bars. I'd never do it buts it's not against the rules or anything. Like does their religion say they can't be in the same building as beer?
As the son of immigrants, it's courteous and the right thing to do to assimilate into the culture you are joining in such a way, that other members of the existing society don't have to change their lifestyle to conform to your original culture...
I don't like to drink and do not drink going out with coworkers. Me not liking something shouldn't dictate actions for others nor does not wanting to drink stop me from having a good time with everyone who is.
I dont drink much. Not a teetotaler, but close.
Never had a problem at office gatherings focused on drinking. Not even once. None of the Muslims I worked with did either. Not even the guys who were devout.
This idea to "respect" them is a nefarious way of adapting the culture to be closer to Sharia, rather than adopting the best parts of Islam into our already great culture.
Its like not allowing Muslims to buy homes without a mortgage. Those who adhere to Sharia would be having their culture destroyed for no reason. We allow people to engage or disengage with society as their beliefs allow.
Another day of this sub reacting to titles and not content :
"The report called on law firms to review their approach to organising work socials, although recognised it would be unrealistic for all events to be [completely alcohol-free. ](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/the-booze-free-boom-taking-over-supermarket-shelves/)
The report also found some Muslims would be more comfortable attending social gatherings held at the office rather than pubs and bars. "
It's based on a dialogue with muslims staff at law firms who felt uncomfortable being forced to drink by their hierarchy. It doesn't mean that firms will HAVE TO host non alcohol-friendly events. But it advised firms to have more diversified events to include all partners.
This sub is illiterate.
Are we to believe that Muslim employees are actually being forced by the "hierarchy" (their bosses?) not only to a) attend work social events at pubs, but b) order ONLY alcoholic drinks, c) actually drink said drinks? Not buying it.
> getting a DUI coming from a work event
This article is referring to the City of London. I worked the City for years, and no one, literally no one, drove to work. It costs a fortune and takes twice as long as the train.
So go if you want to be included, and don't drink alcohol?
No one's going to force you to drink if it's against your religion or your health lifestyle. And if you're a recovering alcoholic, this is one of those choices you have to make to decide whether or not you're in an environment you can handle. It's unfortunate, but that's the way managing your recovery works.
The last time I checked, Jesus turned water into wine and had wine at the Last Supper. Where does the ban on alcohol in some Christian denominations come from?
It's primarily an American Protestant thing born of the fact that alcoholism in the early days of the Republic was out of control. Currently however, it's used for social control in Protestant communities, and an element of anti-Catholic/Orthodox discrimination, (See, "Rum, Romanism, Rebellion").
It’s not specific to Muslims. Lots of people don’t drink alcohol for a plethora of reasons such as health, addition, weight loss, or personal choice. What about them?
Holy shit, the sheer amount of racist temper tantrums in these comments is disgusting. Lincoln would have disbanded the entire party if he saw what it would become.
Islam isn't a race, and you need to crack open a history book if you think Lincoln was some angelic colorblind gentleman. I'm sorry that our opposition to Sharia offends you. Your desire to see our culture eroded offends us.
Yeah, same. I think work events involving a lot of alcohol don't end well anyway. Hookups, DUIs, I've seen it all.
You want to meet your coworkers for happy hour fine. But if you are a manager who wants to take out your team, find something else.
Huh, they never urged this before in the name of recovering alcoholics....
Or Christians who don't drink.
Yup. I’m a Christian who doesn’t drink. If I go out I just don’t drink.
Wait, are you implying that you have control over your own actions, and don't expect everybody else to cater to your lifestyle? I have been told that isn't possible.
Solution. Don’t go to work socials. It’s work, go there, do your job, clock out. Spend time with your family.
Haven't Americans always given more leeway when it comes to religious freedoms, both legally and socially? If I say that I am unavailable to work on the Sabbath then a business owner may well work with me even if they aren't necessarily legally required. If I make the personal choice to not work Saturday/Sunday then that decision is much less respected. Especially when this is just a business trying to make their practices more appealing to a wider range of employees. That is just capitalism.
This is in the UK
Thank you, I did miss that. Although I think my point stands. The people in these comments who are opposed to this idea, are mostly conservative Americans in this sub.
We have to have immigrants, because they're just like us. We have to reform every aspect of society, to include our new immigrants who are different from us.
Is freedom of religion not an American or Western value?
Not if the Arabs have your government by the balls.
So depending on the current situation of the country, it can make sense to alter constitutional ideals? In general I agree but I didn't think that was the dominating opinion in this sub.
Nothing about law firms having events at pubs implicates freedom of religion.
I totally agree. The comment I'm replying to really didn't have anything to do with what a private law firm does either. No one forced them to try to appeal to a larger base of employees.
Recovering alcoholics are not a legally protected class like religion is. Edit: Didn’t mean to cause offense. Stay clean!
I think thats part of the point, the idea that they are a protected class while being the opposite of vulnerable is insulting to those who could actually use it. Personally I don't think there should be any protected classes, kind of a slap in the face for equality
Seems like only certain religions are protected, though.
Agreed. Either support all, or none.
Regardless, there is no protection that restricts where an enterprise may hold social events.
Neither did the drinkers
There’s an argument that they should have…
Actually companies have for the last few years.
I've been a teetotaler for decades. If something happens in a pub it's not a problem - I order something non-alcoholic.
Similar but if some work event is headed to the pub then I politely decline and go home. It hasn't been a problem in almost a decade.
For real. I didn't abuse alcohol but stopped drinking years ago out of boredom. I have no qualms with hanging out at a bar anyway, it's a social joint. Grab some wings and a NA beer and hang out. NA beer has come a LONG way since O'douls, it's awesome now. These people are weak if our culture has to adapt to THEM.
I'm a bartender. We have tons of NA options and most places that sell liquor will offer free NA beverages to Designated Drivers.
Do you have any ones that don't rot your teeth?
well said
It's 'urged' by a recruitment company. It's not any type of statute. I rarely drink any more either but I do find it odd when people urge others to drink or do drugs when they've already turned them down. But this is the UK and they love their pubs. I think I read that in the late medieval era there was a pub for every 50 people in London.
How about we all go back to living our best lives like grown-ups and stop worrying what someone else thinks what is best for us. So tired of all the bullshit going on in this country.
"A report by Rare, a UK graduate recruitment company specialising in diversity, said the legal profession’s “big drinking culture” is unfair to those who abstain from alcohol." This is in the UK, to be fair. "The Telegraph" is a big British tabloid.
I don't belive that bars force peolpe to drink alcohol, unless the rules changed and i didn't read about it.
eh, some have drink minimums so kinda?
Those aren't the kind of bars you go to for an after-work social lol.
This piece is referring to “city law firms”, by “city” they mean “City of London.” Work socials will usually be at a pub, if you’ve got a private area roped off for your social there *will* probably be a minimum spend. But (a) the firm is probably covering it, (b) non-alcoholic drinks, snacks etc cost money too, and (c) I lived in London and worked in the City for 14 years, most of the lads will blow through the minimum spend in under an hour.
I've never been to a pub that would force you to buy acholic drinks. They may get arsy if the whole table ordered tap water (unsure if same in the us but you can't charge for it in the uk) but as long as your buying drinks they're happy. Besides a pint of coke costs pubs less than 10p (if postmix) a pint of anything else is roughly 1/3 to a half of what they charge you... Lots of pubs will not even charge for post mix drinks if your driving and with others who are drinking because who gives a shit about 10p
Bars sell non alcoholic drinks too.
Please name one place where this is the case. I've traveled all over the world and have never been in a place where you are required to buy an alcoholic drink. You can get a Coke and satisfy the drink requirement.
Very few places do this and the very few that do don't force you to drink the drinks.
I have never seen a place force you to buy alcohol, especially if you let them know that you are the designated driver and/or don't drink. Some places will even offer a free soda or even an appetizer to the designated driver.
There's never a problem finding someone to drink your minimum while you get a soft drink for yourself.
Those drinks don’t have to have alcohol in them.
How about, no. Muslims also believe women shouldn’t be working, driving, or educated. Without a man’s permission. Should employers stop employing women to make Muslims happy? Actually, the left probably would do this.
>Muslims also believe women shouldn’t be working, driving, or educated. Without a man’s permission. That'll happen when their population + the most moronic wokies can outvote normals. It's a decade or two away in the UK but their governments are trying to hurry it along.
Utter fools.
Oh, man, that explains Malaysia. Or Pakistan. Or Indonesia.
How about if I take my Christian beliefs to a Muslim country. Are they going to change their way of life to make me feel like I fit in? Absolutely not. Why is only the United States expected to change for someone else's beliefs? Assimilation (or lack there of) is a huge factor of why there exists xenophobia. I just want to be left alone to do what I want to do and I want you to be left alone to do what you want, also.
They probably do. Can’t offend our little Muslim brothers!
Al-Qarawiyyin, the oldest university in the world, was founded by a Muslim woman - with money she inherited from her father. The largest, and fanciest, all-female university on the planet is in Saudi Arabia - who also has the highest percentage of female doctorates. They are also the only ones who speak English in rural areas. Arab men jump out of their skin when women bark orders at them. Frankly, it’s pathetic. I was telling my friends that it wasn’t the 12th century anymore and they don’t have to put up with that shit, then I got kicked out of a Starbucks in Jeddah by one of the most beautiful girls I have ever seen because she thought I looked in her general direction (I did, anybody would have). I scurried out like a puppy then she told my girlfriend off for not having me on a tighter leash and my Saudi friends all laughed their asses off at me. Yes, they are different than we are but we have also been fed a lot of stories about what their world is really like.
>Al-Qarawiyyin, the oldest university in the world, was founded by a Muslim woman - with money she inherited from her father. Could she have earned it on her own? >The largest, and fanciest, all-female university on the planet is in Saudi Arabia - who also has the highest percentage of female doctorates. That's because, unlike civilized societies, women are unable to attend coed universities. And those doctorates are in what? >They are also the only ones who speak English in rural areas Dunno what this is supposed to be. >Arab men jump out of their skin when women bark orders at them. Then how are they constantly assailing women in the West? How are these fierce women kept as chattel? > I was telling my friends that it wasn’t the 12th century anymore and they don’t have to put up with that shit, then I got kicked out of a Starbucks in Jeddah by one of the most beautiful girls I have ever seen because she thought I looked in her general direction (I did, anybody would have). Uncovered? In Jeddah? BS. >Yes, they are different than we are but we have also been fed a lot of stories about what their world is really like. You're talking about a rich subset of a rich country, which is still horrific in terms of civil rights.
They sell children into slavery. I know their world, and I despise it.
You "know" it, huh? Spent a lot of time in the sandbox?
You eat shit and think it's food, ku-wee-er!
I think discussing outliers as if they are a regular occurrence is dishonest at best. You have presented wonderful examples of cultural diversity, however if someone were to go to a Muslim majority nation observing Sharia law they know what they can expect. Citing a hyper woke trans inclusive and all the current things christian church and trying to act like that's the norm for the Christian religion is completely dishonest and the exact same thing you're doing.
The comment above yours is about how "they" sell children into slavery. That is probably more dishonest than someone giving their experiences in the Middle East.
Alcoholism is an important part of UK culture, these people can f*ck off
Biggest laugh for me on Reddit today. I love you guys lol.
How about we do whatever we want, and if a religion prevents the person from joining, they do not join? Since when does one person's religion govern the actions of other people? Don't tell me it always has -- it hasn't. Use of violence to impose religious will is not an example of voluntary governance, lol.
This is for work mandatory events, probably. It is awkward. A guy I worked with would make his team do a Friday lunch at a strip club. The club had amazing food, but it was also mandatory. If its drinks after work, it can also keep you out of the social circles that drive promotions and advancement or opportunity. Thats bad too. A better question is: can people go to a Bar and not drink? yes. Can people go to a strip club and not be surrounded by naked people? No. And that would mean that companies shouldnt be engaged in public "Pride" events, since they are basically public strip clubs.
There’s a big difference between meeting up at a place that serves alcohol & some guy “making his team do …lunch at a *strip club*.” As far as networking or schmoozing opportunities, most people in sales/law/politics/etc. understand that doing stuff like playing golf or meeting up for drinks is a normal part of the game in Western culture. I feel like a lot of folks online live in a bubble where they think advancement/promotion/success is purely based on how well you “do your job” and ignore that in the real world it usually also really matters how well you get along with others (including bonding with the group), and how much people like you.
Louisiana has entered the chat
Displaying the Quran doesnt make me Islamic. Also, the 10 Commandments is very much part of the dominant culture. 2% of people in Louisiana are not culturally or directly aligned with the 10 Commandments. Those 2 percent also generally have a version of the 10 commandments. People act like the 10 commandments somehow are insulting or pushing religion on people. Its really hard to make that argument when even wildly disconnected systems (like Asian) developed very similar rules to live by. Additionally, Atheists and Agnostics do grow their beliefs along the same guidelines, typically, either through the dominant culture around them, or the legal system they create. Hindi has the Dharma, Buddhism has the Five Precepts, Sikhism has The Three Pillars and The Five Thieves, Jainism has The Five Vows, etc. | Ten Commandments | Judaism (Ten Commandments) | Islam (Five Pillars/Key Principles) | Hinduism (Yamas) | Buddhism (Five Precepts) | Sikhism (Five Thieves) | Jainism (Mahavratas) | Shinto | Taoism | Confucianism | |--------------------------------------|----------------------------------|--------------------------------------|----------------------------|---------------------------|-------------------------------|-----------------------------|-------------------------------|-----------------------------------|----------------------------------| | 1. You shall have no other gods (Monotheism) | No other gods | Tawhid (Oneness of God) | | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | | **(Implicit in Kami)** | **(Implicit in Tao)** | **(Implicit in Tian)** | | 2. You shall not make idols (No Idols) | No idols | Tawhid (Oneness of God) | | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | | **(Implicit in Kami)** | **(Implicit in Tao)** | **(Implicit in Tian)** | | 3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain (Respect God's Name) | No misuse of God's name | **(Implicit in Shahada)** | **(Implicit in Satya)** | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | **(Implicit in Satya)** | **(Implicit in Respect for Kami)** | **(Implicit in Respect for Tao)** | **(Implicit in Respect for Tian)**| | 4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy (Sabbath) | Keep Sabbath holy | **(Implicit in Salat)** | | | **(Implicit in Naam Japna)** | **(Implicit in Aparigraha)**| | **(Implicit in Rituals)** | **(Implicit in Rituals)** | | 5. Honor your father and your mother (Honor Parents) | Honor parents | **(Implicit in Zakat)** | | **(Implicit in Respect)** | **(Implicit in Kirat Karni)** | | **(Implicit in Respect for Elders)** | **(Implicit in Filial Piety)** | **(Implicit in Filial Piety)** | | 6. You shall not murder (No Murder) | No murder | **(Implicit in Quran 17:33)** | Ahimsa | Refrain from taking life | **Ahimsa (Non-violence)** | Ahimsa | **(Implicit in Non-harm)** | **(Implicit in Non-harm)** | **(Implicit in Ren)** | | 7. You shall not commit adultery (No Adultery) | No adultery | **(Implicit in Quran 17:32)** | Brahmacharya | Refrain from sexual misconduct | **(Implicit in Faithfulness)** | Brahmacharya | **(Implicit in Purity)** | **(Implicit in Purity)** | **(Implicit in Moral Conduct)** | | 8. You shall not steal (No Stealing) | No stealing | **(Implicit in Quran 5:38)** | Asteya | Refrain from taking what is not given | **(Implicit in Kirat Karni)** | Asteya | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Yi)** | | 9. You shall not bear false witness (No False Witness) | No false witness | **(Implicit in Quran 24:30)** | Satya | Refrain from false speech | **(Implicit in Satya)** | Satya | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Honesty)** | **(Implicit in Yi)** | | 10. You shall not covet (No Coveting) | No coveting | **(Implicit in Zakat)** | Aparigraha | **(Implicit in Non-greed)**| **Non-attachment** | Aparigraha | **(Implicit in Contentment)** | **(Implicit in Contentment)** | **(Implicit in Moral Conduct)** |
> recruitment company specialising in diversity So obviously an entity with no special interests here.
Imagine telling British people to stop holding events at pubs.
We don't have to imagine it.
There is no reason to change American culture. Go ask Europe how that's working out.
Well its a uk article lol but that actually makes it worse because uk pubs aren't like American bars, uk pubs are way more family centered. Many sell childrens drinks, ice cream, great food including Sunday roast and playgrounds in the garden. Sure some pubs are like amerian bars but most arent, its a family friendly gathering place
There are tons of American bars like that too. There are a bunch of different kinds of bars to go to, depending on what kind of vibe you're looking for. Some American bars are like pubs.
I guess that would depend on which state as the places ive lived those would be incredibly rare. Uk pubs are a different thing with most being like i described. I knew many muslims both practicing and not who'd go to sunday roast, quiz night or other events at local pubs it really is a community gathering place but the uk has changed alot since ive lived there. Brixit and covid fucked everything up lol
I'd say a UK pub is close in nature to what an icehouse is in Texas. It was basically a community center that sold beer for the adults, cold drinks for the kids, and food for everybody. Growing up my family would be down there at least once or twice a week so the adults could hang out and the kids would be turned loose to go play out back.
It'll be their drinking pubs. That is where people goto after work for a pint or three.
They go for a pint or three during lunch break lol the advantages of great public transport
That’s like our sports bar. Lots of televisions, lots of families, very little binge drinking nightclub bar culture.
Im american lol pubs are far more mellow. Guys stop buy at pubs to grab a coffee and read a book lol they often have decent sized gardens in the back to chill with family or whatever. Most have dog treats and shit. I used to go play chess and have coffee at my local pub when i was living in the uk. My entire point is muslims are crazy to be anti pub, many serve halal food because its profitable
And they all thought we were being dramatic when we said “they want to destroy western civilization”
Getting hammered at a bar is the pillar holding up Western civilization?
In the UK, socializing at a pub is a very important part of the culture. If Muslim immigrants don't like it, they can gtfo. I'm not going to move to a foreign country and then get upset that they aren't accommodating to everything I want. Nobody should expect that.
Exactly. Can you imagine moving to a Muslim country and making them start opening pubs? Why is this stuff being tolerated? Why do their beliefs and customs trump ours?
Unironically, yes.
If you go to a cooking class with Muslims, instead of the pub as is tradition, then they will also demand that everything that’s made be halal. There’s no reasonable appeasement with a culture that is opposed to you.
I would comment on how all our food is kosher but I know the Liberty is forgotten.
Ah, sure thing. I'll just rearrange western society to accommodate to appease the followers of an 8th century barbarian religion. I'll get right on that.
How about the offended Muslims quit and start their own business if they don't like their employer's corporate culture! 😃👍🏻
If this memo said women should start covering their heads to avoid insulting muslim men, there would be liberal "feminists" asking what color hijab they should wear.
Sorry no fun allowed!
We should actually just b@n all other religions like hinduism christianity Judaism and also atheism and impose sharia so that world can finally be in peace 🤓 it's so frustrating to see white supermacist nazi hindutva extremist to not let sharia be imposed . Only under sharia women and LGBTQ will have freedom . /s
How about Muslims work around the country THEYVE come to. It doesn’t and shouldn’t work the other way around. You wanted to come here. Adapt or leave.
hmm.. I never hear Mormons complaining about this
Since when don't Muslims drink? The Moroccan clubs were open to 5am full of drunks and prostitutes
Here is an idea, go to the social and don't drink.
No.
Ah Muslims are special eh? So change the culture to match their outward Muslim behaviours? Plenty of Muslims drunk, do drugs, and sell both. Maybe jobs that do involve socialising are not for Muslims.
straight up communism
We had a team meeting at work that included lunch during Ramadan. Our Muslim co-worker didn't eat but now I'm wondering if she may have had grounds for a complaint over that.
Ramadan is a month long. Could the meeting have waited a month? Would a dinner meeting have interfered with iftar? Is your coworker bowing toward Mecca for prayer?
It was timed for our re-org, so no, it wouldn't have been possible to reschedule outside of Ramadan. She didn't say anything, I only know that because I asked why she wasn't eating. She was super friendly and chill about it. This was in the US East Coast btw.
Nah
And work socials are now dead.
I don’t drink either. When we have our office party at a bar, I order Diet Coke. Seems pretty simple.
Isn’t it entirely possible to go to a pub and just order a Pepsi and some fries?
How about just don't have work socials. I already spend the majority of my life working I don't need to spend what should be free time socializing with work people
No.
Yeah that will be a hard NO
For todays cooking class we are going to learn how to make pork sausage
The Muslims, Mormons, and recovering alcoholics can drink soda or water.
That’s England for you.
Good, this is what we get. Let’s go back to prohibition.
I’m not a drinker but they just gave me a great idea…
HR at my job had a training where one of the lessons was that it’s exclusionary to have an after-work social event at a bar since some employees have children and can’t attend, and there had been complaints. People that work in HR are lower than telemarketers in my book.
Isn't it amazing how Islam integrates into other societies. They don't try to change their new societies. Saying anything but would be phobic
Can't buy alcohol at cookery and pottery classes so what sort of sense does that make? If a Muslim does not want to buy alcohol at the pub, nobody is forcing them to.
Every bar has non-alcoholic beverages to drink, many also have very tasty mocktails too, I drank a bunch of those when keeping solidarity with my wife's inability to drink while pregnant. If your community is looking down on you for holding to your beliefs while in an environment that's full of "temptation" rather than celebrating that willpower, that certainly says something about your community.
They should stop using electricity in work places to be more inclusive of the Amish.
Lots of places serve non-alcoholic beer or at least beverages other than alcohol. There’s always water, if nothing else!
I work with several devout Muslims. 2 that works directly for me. We regularly meet up for beers and bullshit after work, the Muslim guys are regular attendees. They just don't drink beer. That's it. They can still sit around with us and bullshit and drink a soda or tea. No idea why people like to make such a big deal put of everything.
Agreed. People would be VERY surprised to learn that there is a sizable and ever growing amount of "Americanized" Muslims who actually WILL drink a beer or two 🍻 usually Pork is still a No-Go, but like even the best tipsy vegetarian who sometimes slips on a chicken wing every now and again, there are a few who have savored the taste of a great bacon burger. It's really not that serious. The same as Christians, Jews and anyone else here... you "do your best" and it's the faith in God that really counts. Many of us are just trying to live "normal" lives. Things don't have to always be so serious.
Those lawyers should have thought of that when migrating to the west. We dont need to change. You do.
In the past I'd guess the brits would have said "Sod yer goffers, ye plonky poundah! We're off to the pooob and yer bang outta ordah! Turrah!!", buuuuuut seeing as how we're dealing with modern brits, they'll probably grumble and fold.
I went to plenty of work events centered around alcohol when I was doing dry Jan and Feb. I simply drank club soda with lime and enjoyed the free food that came with the event.
Do they not have Diet Coke in the UK?
As a wisconsinite you are allowed to not drink in bars. I'd never do it buts it's not against the rules or anything. Like does their religion say they can't be in the same building as beer?
I imagine that they’ll put in a similar rule to respect Catholics by restricting all office meat consumption on Fridays
🍻
No
How about start integrating into the culture? I have things that I don't eat but I never ask my friends to exclude them unless for health reasons.
Do they have karaoke at cooking and pottery classes?
Bars and Pubs also serve non alcoholic drinks, soda, and water..GFY
Nobody has to drink alcohol anywhere, even at a pub. They have water and soda.
As the son of immigrants, it's courteous and the right thing to do to assimilate into the culture you are joining in such a way, that other members of the existing society don't have to change their lifestyle to conform to your original culture...
I don't like to drink and do not drink going out with coworkers. Me not liking something shouldn't dictate actions for others nor does not wanting to drink stop me from having a good time with everyone who is.
I dont drink much. Not a teetotaler, but close. Never had a problem at office gatherings focused on drinking. Not even once. None of the Muslims I worked with did either. Not even the guys who were devout. This idea to "respect" them is a nefarious way of adapting the culture to be closer to Sharia, rather than adopting the best parts of Islam into our already great culture. Its like not allowing Muslims to buy homes without a mortgage. Those who adhere to Sharia would be having their culture destroyed for no reason. We allow people to engage or disengage with society as their beliefs allow.
Stop forcing American culture to disappear.
There's nothing wrong with trying to find something everyone will enjoy. As someone who's not an alcoholic I don't want to go to a bar.
Another day of this sub reacting to titles and not content : "The report called on law firms to review their approach to organising work socials, although recognised it would be unrealistic for all events to be [completely alcohol-free. ](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/wine/the-booze-free-boom-taking-over-supermarket-shelves/) The report also found some Muslims would be more comfortable attending social gatherings held at the office rather than pubs and bars. " It's based on a dialogue with muslims staff at law firms who felt uncomfortable being forced to drink by their hierarchy. It doesn't mean that firms will HAVE TO host non alcohol-friendly events. But it advised firms to have more diversified events to include all partners. This sub is illiterate.
Are we to believe that Muslim employees are actually being forced by the "hierarchy" (their bosses?) not only to a) attend work social events at pubs, but b) order ONLY alcoholic drinks, c) actually drink said drinks? Not buying it.
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> getting a DUI coming from a work event This article is referring to the City of London. I worked the City for years, and no one, literally no one, drove to work. It costs a fortune and takes twice as long as the train.
So go if you want to be included, and don't drink alcohol? No one's going to force you to drink if it's against your religion or your health lifestyle. And if you're a recovering alcoholic, this is one of those choices you have to make to decide whether or not you're in an environment you can handle. It's unfortunate, but that's the way managing your recovery works.
If your religion doesn't let you drink, your religion is wrong.
The last time I checked, Jesus turned water into wine and had wine at the Last Supper. Where does the ban on alcohol in some Christian denominations come from?
It's primarily an American Protestant thing born of the fact that alcoholism in the early days of the Republic was out of control. Currently however, it's used for social control in Protestant communities, and an element of anti-Catholic/Orthodox discrimination, (See, "Rum, Romanism, Rebellion").
Banning alcohol has nothing to do with the religion then. It's a man-made construct. That's what I thought.
Given that Catholicism has entire monestaries of ale brewing monks, then that implies that Catholic is the most correct of religions.
I'm Orthodox, but you're not wrong lol.
It’s not specific to Muslims. Lots of people don’t drink alcohol for a plethora of reasons such as health, addition, weight loss, or personal choice. What about them?
Holy shit, the sheer amount of racist temper tantrums in these comments is disgusting. Lincoln would have disbanded the entire party if he saw what it would become.
Islam isn't a race, and you need to crack open a history book if you think Lincoln was some angelic colorblind gentleman. I'm sorry that our opposition to Sharia offends you. Your desire to see our culture eroded offends us.
I could get on board with that, at least since I quit drinking.
Yeah, same. I think work events involving a lot of alcohol don't end well anyway. Hookups, DUIs, I've seen it all. You want to meet your coworkers for happy hour fine. But if you are a manager who wants to take out your team, find something else.
Yup. Last place I worked we would do engineers' "team building" at the shooting range. That was always pretty fun, if expensive....